Target loses $9 billion in one week, tells Bud Light to officially hold its beer

Steep drops in sales of Bud Light continued to worsen for the sixth consecutive week, plunging by nearly 25% since the ill-fated promotion with transgender influencer Dylan Mulvaney, the latest industry data shows.

…

It’s been six weeks already?!

OP sure enjoys right wing news sources.

I feel like things will improve after Trump gets his shit pushed in (again) by Biden next year. Deplorables might be loud, but they're the minority.

R1, it’s a sports web site.

R4, DL has told us that Trump won’t get the nomination.

R3, DL has told us that Trump won’t get the nomination.

Target is soccer mom nirvana, they misread their audience

Anheuser-Busch's market value. Anheuser-Busch has seen its market value plunge $15.7billion since the disastrous campaign with Mulvaney began on April 1.

This is all happening because the trans were so great at silencing anyone who argued science or logic. Most of the public is afraid to use words to say what they really think about trans and so are giving fake lip service or being silent due to fear of cancel culture. Consumers have wisely decided to speak with their pocketbooks and will likely continue to do so.

These corporations are getting a wakeup call. The "koolaid" they have ignorantly been drinking is poisonous. Very many well-meaning people, on the progressive side. are just as ignorant and gullible as everyone else. I heard Chasten Buttigieg on Pivot and Kara and Scott are quite intelligent but they still smugly believe the party line that everything EVERYTHING trans activism says is good and true and that it makes them liberal and progressive.

[quote] they still smugly believe the party line that everything EVERYTHING trans activism says is good and true and that it makes them liberal and progressive. .

Well it does, by the redefined meanings of the terms

Barron's sees BUD as a buy now.

I went to a Target in Dallas and they STILL had their PRIDE merchandise in a cart in the middle of the walkway. I was pleasantly surprised.

BTW, I don't know how the FUCK Target stays in business with those high-ass prices. Especially, when there's a Walmart a block away from every one of them in my city.

Perhaps the little trans toddlers and gradeschoolers can be encouraged to be gender fluid or non binary and that there is no need to "pretend" to look like a boy or a girl. They can just be themselves. The idea that grade school children feel some pressure from anyone to "tuck" or masquerade as the sex they are not, is grim.

[quote]This is all happening because the trans were so great at silencing anyone who argued science or logic.

No, dear. This is because insane tran-hating loons like you use violence and intimidation to get what you want.

The trans-hating cult on the right are the new SA.

[quote]It's unfair to deny the students who actually did the work the chance for a timely ceremony.

One can hope. Let's get back to the grassroots of our Pride festivals. I'd say book Helen Reddy to sing "I Am Woman", but well, she's a dead pool winner.

[quote]The idea that grade school children feel some pressure from anyone to "tuck" or masquerade as the sex they are not, is grim.

It is a grim idea and it's an idea you totally made up that doesn't happen in the real world.

Your brain is floating in an internet stew. Breathe some fresh air, dear.

The female CEO who made the Bud Light decision was fired. The video of her trashing men, calling them frats, completely ignorant when it came to the company’s main consumers, was shocking to say the least. She was an costal elitist. A complete stereotype. There are progressives who simply believe that society can either be “re-educated” or that everyone already thinks like them.

R16, she’s white and “cis” so she wouldn’t be welcome anyway.

Target has not lost 9 billion dollars.

People are confusing reaction in stock price with loss of revenue from these boycotts.

Yes, Bud Light sales are basically carnage at this point. You can't drop sales 20%+ year over year all at once and not have carnage. But it's way too early for people to freak out about Target. There's social media buzz, but are people really stopping their Target purchases? And where are they going instead? You can buy all of the same kinds of merchandise at Walmart.

I still can’t believe that Chase Strangio got the ACLU to change their policy. They put out new guidelines that say that they will no longer support hate speech. The first amendment went out the window as far as the ACLU is concerned. How trans got this much power needs to be studied. Unfortunately, very few will dare study it because they’re scared shitless of getting cancelled. 15 years ago no one could have predicted that we would be debating what a woman is, but here we are. Since Trump and Brexit, we’re officially living in the Twilight Zone.

Target is taking down the Pride merchandise or moving it to the back of the store now. 2023 is shaping up to be the year where people have had enough.

What have they had enough of, R22?

I personally have had enough of anti-trans lunatics like you dictating to private citizens and private businesses what and how they should think and what and how they should operate their businesses without interference from right-wing assholes disguising their bigotry and hatred behind faux patriotism and faux religious piety.

[quote] Since Trump and Brexit, we’re officially living in the Twilight Zone.

For all the things you can blame on Trump I don't think trans is on the list. Our cultural lords had already chosen.

"I personally have had enough of anti-trans lunatics like you dictating to private citizens and private businesses what and how they should think"

You mean like harassing lesbian professors forcing them to resign for stating such inflammatory things like "biological sex is real"?

For me, take down this Pride shit.

I’m gay and this has nothing to do with being anti-trans or whatever, it’s about the exploitation of lgbt people.

Heterosexuals are trying to redefine Pride culture.

Just look at this display.

Look at the straight couple on the advertisement.

This is why it needs to go.

R17 I didn't MAKE IT UP you twat. The clothes in Target, for grade schoolers, have labels touting that they are tuck friendly and extra room for tucking.

I think it's hilarious but of course this triggered the MAGATS. But no, I didn't make it up at all. And yes, it does kind of encourage so called trans kids to tuck.

It's market flux, not a loss in sales. The "news" source is a right wing frat boy. I love all the comments. "we have been target shoppers for years but never going back" Hmm Obviously you missed that last five years of pride merch out in front of the stores every pride. Suddenly this year you noticed and will no longer shop at Target.

Uh, that’s not a straight guy in the poster, r26 — he’s smelling ALL the cookies from aisle 13.

They are not regular Target shoppers. They only now are making a big deal of it because their minders at Faux News are telling them to.

Um you don't think fraus like the overall chick are regular target shoppers R31? They are exactly regular target shoppers. And Target fucking sucks.

No, I don't R32. She went in explicitly to get attention on social media. Any other questions?

Well, you're wrong, those are the fucking people who shop at Target. Who do you think goes there? Any other questions?

[Quote] Target is soccer mom nirvana, they misread their audience

They were selling "tuck friendly" bathing suits for kids, r7. I think it's safe to say they misread planet Earth.

You're wrong. She looks nothing like the people who shop at the Target I frequent. She looks like a Walmart shopper. Now run off to your next book burning and have a blessed day.

No, she's not 400 pounds and toothless. She is frau-y, with tats and a nose ring and denim overalls. Oh and go fuck yourself. Have a blessed day.

“ The clothes in Target, for grade schoolers, have labels touting that they are tuck friendly and extra room for tucking.”

Does the label say that it is children’s clothing? I saw the extra tuck coverage but I didn’t see where it said that was for children.

[quote]Does the label say that it is children’s clothing?

NBC NEWS: The collection includes “tuck-friendly” swimsuits that allow trans people who have not had gender-affirming operations to conceal their private parts, The Associated Press has previously reported.

Those swimsuits, which are available only in adult sizes, were used in false and misleading claims by critics online.

Time to pick up some Target stock then. Middle class women love it and it'll be fine. These people bitching aren't regular Target shoppers and should go back to Wal-Mart or Dollar General where they belong.

They whole thing is trying to make Pride poisonous to businesses. People told yall idiots it wasn't just about trans people but all LBGTQ people, but some of you refuse to listen.

Someone on this thread is really grossed out by the fact that women's labias can be big and sometimes need to be tucked.

R26, I think that photo is meant to suggest a gay man and his supportive sister.

[quote] No, dear. This is because insane tran-hating loons like you use violence and intimidation to get what you want.

Wow, even a moron like you has GOT to see the irony in that statement. I cannot believe you posted it with a straight face.

Poor dear, I don't think you know what "irony" means.

Not unusual for an American.

Oh, R44 sweetie, try harder. You got smacked down. Take it like a (she) man.

I was sitting at an airport bar in St. Louis of all places - the home of Anheuser Busch - and two people who ordered Bud Lights made off-handed comments to those around them about it - essentially qualifying they're decision. Literally no one around them cared and were sort of "what?." But it shows that it's on people's minds and BL is going to have a rough go moving forward. It's all so stupid, but is that true when the sales speak for themselves.

I don't think I'd ever seen Bud Light advertised or even for sale here in the UK before, but it's currently being promoted as the cheapest available beer at national pub chain Wetherspoons. Anheuser-Busch must have had a lot they needed to get rid of.

R11 the wealthiest man on the planet tweeting facile, 10th grade government class level memes and being feted as some kind of sage for it is very funny to me.

Fascinating B-School case study. Someone is being tasked with doing damage control and bringing Bud Light sales back. How do they do that? Should they even try that hard. It's not like they don't have a roster of other light beers (and non-light beers) to promote. But Bud Lite has been their flagship for so long, I'd assume they think it's worth saving. And, who knows, if they just let it play itself out, accept the sales decline, and the build from there, maybe the Bud Light brand will be saved - though after a significant period of decline.

It’ll be a fascinating b-school case study about a marketing strategy learned in b-school.

[quote]You got smacked down.

I did? Hmm. Ok! If you say so!

In mainstream (not extreme either way) soccer mom America there is still a big difference between PRIDE merchandise and 'tucking' in women's swimwear. This is not homophobia this is feminism and women are PISSED OFF about men cosplaying/appropriating/cheating at sports.

I appreciate corporate America’s splashy embrace of gay rights. Fuck the right.

celebrate my gay pre-teen son? Yes.

amputate his dick? No

R53 what is "gay rights" about trans children?

Gay means happy!

I get what you guys are saying about trans—I have issues with that, too. Seems like a new form of gay conversion therapy.

But!

This attack on trans also seems like a safe way for assholes to gay bash without overtly gay bashing their “friends.”

The trans issue is very complicated for us gay folk. And it’s very complicated for straight parents trying to navigate their kids’ desires against fears that surgery might damage their health for life. But I’d much rather embrace trans then the assholes attacking them.

Of course there are a few bad trans players—mostly MTF who denigrate women. But I assume most are genuinely struggling, much as most gays did before the 2000s.

When I came out in 1990, you could still be fired for being gay. So I have a lot of empathy for the trans community. And we all know the right wing is leveraging fear/hatred of them to rally their base.

I’m R57 and I think it’s pretty goddamn brave for corporations to publicly support the trans community. Although, it was also pretty goddam stupid to celebrate women’s history month with trans women rather than bio women. Women have a very legit gripe with that.

I don't know what the alleged "problem" is supposed to be with Target and I don't care.

If I have things I need at Target, I'll go shop there. If I need shitty beer, I'll buy Bud Light. These stupid right wing temper tantrums have no effect on me. I don't ever hear about half of them. *yawn*

😂😂😂

r58 It's not brave at all. They get tax breaks.

For example, in Europe:

"Employers that pay to sign up to Stonewall’s Diversity Champions programme receive support from the charity on LGBTQ+ issues. Stonewall says it works with more than 850 employers, offering expertise, advice and best practice to help them develop and implement their inclusion and diversity policies.

On top of this, members of the scheme are entered into the charity’s Workplace Equality Index and Global Workplace Equality Index, where they are benchmarked against other companies. The list is published as an annual rundown of the top 100 employers for LGBT inclusion."

Companies get tax breaks and other advantages from pushing LGBT.

A similar thing is happening in the States. It's virtue signalling to make money, nothing more. See how spineless AB became when customers starting disappearing.

R57 nice try but it's slippery hogwash and a lot of distraction. Surgery will damage their health - IMMEDIATELY AND FOREVER. As do the hormones alone. The little trans boys won't even grow a penis large enough to be made into an open wound fake vagina.

Don’t we think it’s because people who shop are extremely susceptible to marketing ideas? I hate women who spend their days shopping

R61 do you have a link to the applicable US tax legislation that target is taking advance of here in the US? Bc they don’t operate in the UK you know.

R61 doesnt have jackshit other than what she sees spewing out of Fox/Brietbart/OANN etc.

Did you actually read her rancid propaganda spewing post at R61? Pure garbage.

[quote] They put out new guidelines that say that they will no longer support hate speech.

Wow what a terrible thing for a trans person to lobby for. You really showed them up here R21 😭

The people who hate the troons also hate the fags. We’re fucked.

Dollar General is down 4.19%, Walmat is down 2.22%, Target is down 7.19%. The market is freaking over the debt limit talks. Not rainbows.

Who are "the troons" please? I've never heard of them, are they actually something else?

"Troons" = trans loons, r69. They like to accuse anyone who doesn't lick their collective asshole 110% of being anti-trans loons, Brietbartists, Republithugs, Fox fans, etc. For example, see r65.

R21 The autogynephile takeover of GLAAD post-marriage equality by heterosexuals like James/Jennifer Boylan marked the turning point: trans WILL be the new face of "the movement" and it WILL exercise absolute control over former gay organizations.

Heterosexuals who identify as the opposite sex have been infiltrating the gay rights movement since the 60s, seizing any resources they can get their hands on. This has been a concerted effort half a century in the making. In the words of the OG transactivist, founder of the first transactivist orgs and rabid homophobe Arnold Lowman/Virginia Prince after studying the meetings of gay rights activists:

"... we aid their cause when it will aid ours and extract from their experiences and their contacts with authorities and influential groups any contacts and opportunities that may be to our advantage."

R70 in fairness if there’s anything this whole Bud Lite debacle has shown very clearly is that an enormous amount of the general public is anti-trans. And the examples you listed are those people 🤷🏻‍♂️

However, r72, I do not watch Fox News. I took it in for a short while in the '00s, realized what it was, and removed it from the channels my remote would land on. I only looked at Breitbart once, to see what the Milo kerfuffle was, and I have never looked at it again. And I don't know what OOAN is, even.

In short, I'm not a Republican. I have never voted Republican. And I vote. Even when I lived in DC, where Democrats win by default.

[quote]"Troons" = trans loons, [R69]. They like to accuse anyone who doesn't lick their collective asshole 110% of being anti-trans loons, Brietbartists, Republithugs, Fox fans, etc. For example, see [R65].

Bless your heart, r70. How many trans/drag threads posted on DL are trans/drag positive? How many link to a Murdoch or Musk source? Stop being such a drama queen, pot-stirrer and water bearer for the Radical Right wing. Go somewhere else and spread your shit, ya Negative Nellie.

[quote]Stop being such a drama queen, pot-stirrer and water bearer for the Radical Right wing.

Drama queen, maybe. I usually try to stay out of the trans stuff, but sometimes it's just too gooshy-gooey to avoid. But never, ever a "water bearer for the Radical Right wing." That's factually incorrect.

[quote]I usually try to stay out of the trans stuff, but

Try harder, r75.

[quote]"Troons" = trans loons, r69. They like to accuse anyone who doesn't lick their collective asshole

Where are you encountering these "trans loons", r70?

I never buy Oride crap but just got back from target where I bought all their pride crap. It was displayed throughout the store, where I bought rainbow colored milk ones. Spent $300 on the tackiest nonsense I’ve ever brought. But felt great about it. Fuck the GOP. Just fuck ‘em

But, because of their Target boycott, my dogs are both wearing bejeweled doggie pride crop tops and look like look their going out for a night in Boystown. So who’s the winner in his boycott? Slutty dogs across the uS, that’s who.

^rainbow colored Milk Bones…

The retail giant, which has been the subject of widespread boycott calls in the wake of protests over its “PRIDE” collection, has partnered with the Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN), a teacher group founded in 1990 with the aim of “creating affirming learning environments for LGBTQ youth.”

GLSEN has been among the organizations that have urged states and school districts to refrain from notifying parents whenever students decide to “socially transition” their gender.

School leaders told the Washington Post that not notifying parents is necessary in order to avoid outing children who could be in harm’s way at home.

One controversial practice used by some schools in at least 18 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico is having teachers use new trans names for children in class but then reverting to the original “dead” names when talking with parents.

The secrecy surrounding children’s gender has prompted several lawsuits in states such as Massachusetts, Florida, Wisconsin, Kansas, Virginia and Maryland.

GLSEN has also urged teachers to intervene if children are drawing graphics or pictures involving sex so as to make sure they are compliant with gender ideology.

“When students are creating their own surveys, if they want to include data for biological sex, teachers need to be sure they include both intersex and other as choices,” GLSEN wrote in a blog post titled “How Do We Make Math Class More Inclusive of Trans and Non-binary Identities.”

“[A]nd if the students want to include data for gender, a variety of choices need to be included, such as agender, genderfluid, female, male, nonbinary, transman, transwoman, and other.”

Why can't the kids just learn math, science, reading, and writing? Why do they have to be reprogrammed?

This isn't the first year for Target Pride/LGBT items. So, is it just homophobia generally or is it really in response to what's new - like the tuck-friendly pants?

The largest flood begins with a single drip

Pride merchandise doesn't bother me as long as it remains generic.-- a simple rainbow flag or PRIDE. Of course, that's assuming the company is contributing to an affiliated organization. I certainly hope Target is doing that. BUT clothing with shit like "Tuck here" is just tacky AF.

Where are people getting the idea it's being marketed to children? Is there actual evidence from credible sources OR some MAGA assholes on TikTok?

Is the "designed for tucking" sportswear and swimwear for adults or children?

[quote]Is the "designed for tucking" sportswear and swimwear for adults or children?

See R39. It's swimwear for adults, but Fox et all have been lying and saying otherwise.

Ah Ok. Thanks. I admit that I picked up the fake news take on it.

People are missing it. This is an outright attack on LGBT people. The message is we don't want you to exist and any company who acknowledges you we will boycott. It;s open and sometimes violent discrimination and hostility to us. Can you imagine if they boycotted Target for celebrating Black History Month? Or Anheuser Busch for creating a can celebrating Black History Month? There would be hell to pay.

^To complete this analogy, you will need to combine Black history with 2 other disparate groups. There are other strands to be created, of course, to complete this analogy. But start with Black history = LG, and then continue your point.

[quote] There would be hell to pay.

Nobody cared

r89 No we don't. Are you saying it is just trans they have a problem with you would be sorely mistaken.

you're wrong, r91.

but that's a consequence of your irredeemable stupidity. and nothing can be done about that. shrug.

Sorry, how am I wrong? Do you seriously believe that? I guess you missed the Don't say gay bill in FLA, not being modeled in over 20 states, the making drag performances illegal in public, or losing their shit over a drag queen reading to children. Maybe you missed the open hostility to Mayor Pete? If you think it is just Trans people then you are the one who is irredeemably stupid.

The hostility towards Pete? Like the one from transqueer lunatics who accuse him of not being a REAL gay man because he is an evil assimilationist cisgay?

R90 no one cared about these either.

[quote] NBC NEWS: The collection includes “tuck-friendly” swimsuits that allow trans people who have not had gender-affirming operations to conceal their private parts,

First off, “gender-affirming”. 🙄 Second, if you had operations, you don’t need to tuck. This is fetish gear.

R94, we have one of those freaks on here. You know, Pete isn’t a real gay because he’s not sucking dick on a street corner and he didn’t come out at 12.

I was at Target yesterday and they had a woman “dreaming about girls” t-shirt and Pride pet toys section. It was ridiculous.

I guess it’s for lesbians.

The shit made by the tranny Trevor Project is all over the store.

Why would pants or shorts need to be designed for tucking? Hardly anyone wears tight-crotched pants anymore, and more so, Target even if some people do, Target doesn't sell those sorts of pants - where they're sewn so that there's hardly any room in the crotch area. Tuck-friendly shorts and pants seem made up - a way to get a few more dollar for a feature that isn't actually a feature.

Jazz was obsessed with tucking at age 3, so yes, there's demand for it.

On the one hand, they say their body has nothing to do with who they really are, and on the other, they feel the need to tuck their genitalia vand they DESPERATELY need everybody who encounters them to affirm their appearance.

"Jazz was obsessed with tucking at age 3, so yes, there's demand for it."

I get there's demand for it, but I'm saying that they don't need to do anything different to most current clothes to enable efficient tucking.

[quote]Jazz was obsessed with tucking at age 3

Why would a boy who wants to wear a dress care about tucking. Just make sure you have your underpants on.

“ Why would a boy who wants to wear a dress care about tucking”

Because mother said to care

But if they tuck their junk, what happens if they start flirting with a potential partner and want to have sex? Does the junk stay tucked during sex? Do they suddenly unleashed their tucked junk like a rabid dog on a chain when someone agrees to have sex with them? Seriously. How does this work?

Who would dress their kid in that aside from Jazz Jennings’ mother?

Moms who like their children to dress like them (basic, I know but fraus will frau)?

People who have trans relatives and want to show support?

People who believe trans people are a teeny minority enduring a violent and irrational moral panic?

People who like colorful clothes?

Following Target’s announcement last week that it removed products and relocated Pride displays to the back of certain stores in the South, activists in the LGBTQ+ community are calling for new campaigns to convince corporate leaders not to cave to anti-LGBTQ+ groups.

“We need a strategy on how to deal with corporations that are experiencing enormous pressure to throw LGBTQ people under the bus,” said California state Sen. Scott Wiener, D-San Francisco, a member of the LGBTQ legislative caucus.

“We need to send a clear message to corporate America that if you’re our ally — if you are truly our ally — you need to be our ally, not just when it’s easy but also when it’s hard,” he said.

𝐓𝐚𝐫𝐠𝐞𝐭'𝐬 𝐦𝐚𝐫𝐤𝐞𝐭 𝐯𝐚𝐥𝐮𝐞 𝐟𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐨𝐯𝐞𝐫 $𝟏𝟐𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐥𝐢𝐨𝐧

Target's share prices continued to plummet for an eighth-straight day on Tuesday as the retailer faces its biggest losing streak in five years.

Shares fell 3.66 percent on Tuesday, resulting in the once-popular retail store losing a whopping $2.4billion in market capitalization amid widespread backlash to its Pride display, which included 'tuck-friendly' women's swimwear.

Tuesday's losses put the stock on its longest losing streak since November 2018, according to FOX Business, with shares at a 52-week low of $133.88 — down nearly 15 percent over the month.

In total, Target's market value fell over $12billion to $61.77billion as of Tuesday's closing. That is a stark difference from earlier in the month, when its market value was over $74billion.

The right wing is coming for the Gays - AGAIN.

I hope the anti-Trans fanatics and right-wing extremist propagandists are content with what they have done. Good work, I'm sure you'll be able to torture and kill more homosexuals any day now.

Selling a bunch of PRIDE crap for a profit is only marginally also about cheerleading for visibility, normalising, and showing support. These are commodities - they are not free.

I also think PRIDE months are overkill. What's wrong with a PRIDE WEEK bracketed by 2 PRIDE weekends? I think PRIDE activities are cool and important and fun, but PRIDE "month" is overkill. Not just PRIDE.

Here is the lists of "months"

Black History Month.

Women's History Month.

Arab American Heritage Month.

Jewish American Heritage Month.

Asian Americans, and Native Hawaiians, and Pacific Islanders Month

Military Appreciation and National Veterans and Military Families Month

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer PRIDE Month

Caribbean-American Heritage Month.

Immigrant Heritage Month

Hispanic Heritage Month.

Target was wide of the mark on this one.

r114 but they have always had that merch. Had it last year, year before. It is only this year that the right-wing nut jobs have objected to it.

Listen you miserable cunt. Nobody is defending the MAGATS for harassing and boycotting TARGET. But that doesn't mean all gays are thrilled with Target's cynical co-opting of PRIDE and tranny agendas to make a buck. You're turning yourself blue, twisting into contortions, to exonerate tranny politics of all participation in this rat fuck that produces "tuck friendly" Asian made garbage clothes as somehow being about GAY PRIDE, because that is not gay pride.

Create your own FREAKING movement and you'll find all the MAGAT will easily find you as target. You go around media and society being snarky bitches to all members of LGBTQ except your precious selves. Then you hide behind the LGBTQ umbrella when your nonstop histrionics and provocative trolling of the world gets called out. In a nutshell, your argument to LGB is "They are coming for you next" because you're miserable freaks having daily hissy fits about anything and everything. ITS TRANS GENOCIDE!!!! No it is not, hunty.

It's not that I believe in Target as any sort of deep, principled bastion of gay rights and pro-LBGT sentiment. It is a corporation and it's trying to make money. But, what the right wing is trying to do here is crazy, and it's working, and it will be taken further - to more businesses and beyond. I don't see how Target "co-opting" the gay movement or the fact that there's a Pride Month (agree or disagree) is even relevant to the discussion.

The argument you cannot accept is that trans politics does not belong paired with Lesbian Bi and Gay. And "queer" straights can fuck off as well. Create your own movement and you'll quickly discover that a movement comprised of 90% histrionic mentally ill cunts will have a hard time growing and gaining acceptance from society. And you won't be able to dissipate the pushback by hiding in a larger group made up of reasonable, well-integrated people.