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Why some Egyptians are fuming over Netflix's Black Cleopatra

Cairo — As soon as Netflix dropped the trailer for its upcoming "docudrama" about ancient Egypt's Queen Cleopatra, drama started bubbling up online. The preview quickly drew criticism. Some Egyptians complained that the feature was appropriating their culture and rewriting their history, primarily because Cleopatra is portrayed by a Black woman in the film.

The movie, produced by Jada Pinkett Smith and starring biracial British actor Adele James as Queen Cleopatra, is set for release on May 10. It is the second part of a Netflix "docuseries" on African queens, focused on female rulers from the African continent.

In the latest official response to the controversy, Egypt's Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities issued a long statement at the end of April stressing that "Queen Cleopatra had light skin and Hellenistic (Greek) features."

The statement criticized Netflix for casting James, whom the ministry said has "African features and dark skin," to play Cleopatra.

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by Anonymousreply 425June 25, 2023 6:59 PM

Asked my DL-famous Egyptian Zillennial BIL about this, and he says he doesn't give a fuck and neither does anyone he knows.

He is and they are however raving about the latest big show in Cairo, 'Gaafar El Omda'. He reckons it's scandalous that so few in the West are hopping on the Gaafar train. It is a really entertaining show, I have to give him that.

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by Anonymousreply 1May 9, 2023 9:55 PM

There have been at least three prior threads on this topic, and all have been deleted or closed. Good luck with this one, OP.

by Anonymousreply 2May 9, 2023 9:55 PM

Um

[quote] The antiquity ministry's statement said Cleopatra was descended from a Macedonian family that ruled Egypt for nearly 300 years, and as per customs of that time, kings married their sisters and kept their Macedonian race "pure" during this period.

by Anonymousreply 3May 9, 2023 10:07 PM

Much of the current Egyptian populace are largely Syrian, Lebanese or Turkish by ethnicity, anyway.

by Anonymousreply 4May 9, 2023 10:10 PM

We've been over this, several times.

by Anonymousreply 5May 9, 2023 10:36 PM

I'd love to see a biography of Malcolm X played by Kid Rock

by Anonymousreply 6May 9, 2023 10:41 PM

She actually wasn't black.

by Anonymousreply 7May 9, 2023 10:57 PM

Only the Welsh may truly be 'fuming' (pron. 'feeYOUmin') or 'tamping', OP.

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by Anonymousreply 8May 10, 2023 12:11 AM

Because it's supposedly a "documentary".

by Anonymousreply 9May 10, 2023 12:13 AM

Whose Queen? Netflix and Egypt Spar Over an African Cleopatra.

Egyptians say the influential streaming service is dragging an ancient queen into a modern, and decidedly Western, debate — about Black representation in Hollywood — in which she has no real place.

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by Anonymousreply 10May 10, 2023 4:48 PM

Wokeapatra.

by Anonymousreply 11May 10, 2023 5:59 PM

[quote] Much of the current Egyptian populace are largely Syrian, Lebanese or Turkish by ethnicity, anyway.

Citation needed.

by Anonymousreply 12May 10, 2023 6:09 PM

Egyptians were mad when a Black man, Lou Gossett, Jr., played Anwar Sadat.

by Anonymousreply 13May 10, 2023 6:22 PM

I liked the part where Cleopatra said to Marc Antony "don't you be disrespectin' me!" while she twirled her braids.

by Anonymousreply 14May 10, 2023 6:22 PM

I thought Miss Cleo [italic]was[/italic] Black.

by Anonymousreply 15May 10, 2023 6:52 PM

“Cleopatra reacted to the phenomena of oppression and exploitation as a Black woman would,” according to the Hamilton College classicist Shelley Haley, a professor of Africana and an expert on Cleopatra who consulted on the Netflix show. She argued that Cleopatra’s potentially mixed background made her a person of color: “Hence we embrace her as sister.”

So Cleopatra became the mistress and had an illegitimate kid with Caesar to get his support and then became the mistress of the married Mark Antony and had twins from him to get HIS support. I'm not sure this is as flattering to black women as she thinks it is.

by Anonymousreply 16May 10, 2023 7:17 PM

[quote] Much of the current Egyptian populace are largely Syrian, Lebanese or Turkish

Immaterial to the matter of an invading Greek army creating their own Egyptian dynasty 24 centuries ago

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by Anonymousreply 17May 10, 2023 11:17 PM

[quote]Why some Egyptians are fuming

That's gonna smell.

by Anonymousreply 18May 10, 2023 11:21 PM

Were they from North Macedonia or Macedonia Macedonia?

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by Anonymousreply 19May 10, 2023 11:44 PM

We're in an era where representation trumps historical accuracy--see BBC's Tom Jones, the Bridgerton prequel. You can argue it back and forth and claim what passes for history has been whitewashed and inclusion is necessary to engage people in works by Fielding, Shakespeare and others. I think anything that has Jada Pinkett Smith's fingerprints on it is bound to be trash.

by Anonymousreply 20May 10, 2023 11:48 PM

It’s funny how absolutely no one has an issue with British Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra. But god forbid you go a shade darker instead of three shades lighter and people act like it’s the end of history as we know it. The racism is quite evident.

by Anonymousreply 21May 10, 2023 11:59 PM

I don't care who plays a part based on a historical figure, but to incorporate the actor's race or ethnicity into the role is dishonest and pandering.

Or, in the case of the race-blind and famously integrative ancient Egyptians (outside the evidence for the Macedonian dynasty, as near as we can tell), a political stance that is arrogant fantasy.

But I haven't heard that anything like that is part of the production. I won't see it, though, on principle because the Pinkett Smith is such a craven cunt you can't trust anything she does.

by Anonymousreply 22May 11, 2023 12:03 AM

She also spoke Ebonics.

by Anonymousreply 23May 11, 2023 12:08 AM

[quote]The movie, produced by Jada Pinkett Smith

Welp, there's the problem.

by Anonymousreply 24May 11, 2023 12:08 AM

R24, are you the Welp troll?

by Anonymousreply 25May 11, 2023 12:18 AM

It’s funny how absolutely no one has an issue with British Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra.

Caucasian Taylor playing Caucasian Cleopatra wasn't the best casting but your issue would better be framed if somebody like Timothée Chalamet cast to star in a documentary about Jesse Owens.

I've said it before and I'll say it again Looking at the available contemporary imagery and descriptions the best current actress to portray Cleo would be Spanish "Money Heist" actress Alba Flores.

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by Anonymousreply 26May 11, 2023 12:24 AM

Making Cleopatra do "Black Girl Magic" is a very cheesy.

by Anonymousreply 27May 11, 2023 12:27 AM

R26 that is not even close to the same comparison. Adele James is about a shade darker than the actress you present. People are just going crazy because she is black and a no name. If it was Thandiwe Newton, no one would be saying anything either.

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by Anonymousreply 28May 11, 2023 12:30 AM

Who really cares if Cleopatra is played by a black actress? I heard there were no Ancient Macedonians available anyway!

by Anonymousreply 29May 11, 2023 1:24 AM

Mama June would have been perfect for the role of Cleopatra.

by Anonymousreply 30May 11, 2023 1:27 AM

She was melungeon!

by Anonymousreply 31May 11, 2023 1:32 AM

Stanley Baxter was the best. 'We all have staff problems!'

by Anonymousreply 32May 11, 2023 1:32 AM

[quote] It’s funny how absolutely no one has an issue with British Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra.

R21 I don't know what her ethnicity was but Taylor's parents were both from Kansas, living in England when she was born, hence she had dual citizenship. Maybe they were of British ancestry, I don't know, but they were both American, from Arkansas City, Kansas. Taylor was British by circumstance of birth.

by Anonymousreply 33May 11, 2023 1:39 AM

Jesus is next!

by Anonymousreply 34May 11, 2023 1:43 AM

While my sister (the one-time Academy Award winner) and I were Japanese by circumstance of birth.

by Anonymousreply 35May 11, 2023 1:44 AM

R35 No, you weren't.

by Anonymousreply 36May 11, 2023 1:55 AM

So the series is about Black Queens and they gave a whole episode to a Greek woman depriving some celebrated Black Queen of her own show? R26 Flores would be brilliant. She was fantastic in Money Heist. Exceptional actress and tough as nails.

by Anonymousreply 37May 11, 2023 2:33 AM

R36 the De Havilland sisters were born in Tokyo where their British father was a professor.

by Anonymousreply 38May 11, 2023 2:38 AM

ITA R37 there are plenty of interesting Africa queens to portray rather than another tired Cleopatra rehash.

by Anonymousreply 39May 11, 2023 2:47 AM

[quote]ITA [R37] there are plenty of interesting Africa queens to portray rather than another tired Cleopatra rehash.

Yeah.

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by Anonymousreply 40May 11, 2023 3:26 PM

Michael Jackson did the Black Cleopatra thing way back in 1992 with Iman as Cleo.

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by Anonymousreply 41May 11, 2023 5:36 PM

[Quote]Much of the current Egyptian populace are largely Syrian, Lebanese or Turkish by ethnicity, anyway.

There are also Black people people in Egypt, namely the Nubians. Cleopatra wasn't one of them, though. But we should recognize that Egypt isn't as "White" as some people claim it is.

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by Anonymousreply 42May 11, 2023 5:47 PM

It's sad black people need to make up shit to feel good about themselves (e.g., Cleo was black, Wakanda)

by Anonymousreply 43May 11, 2023 5:57 PM

R21 And a British male playing Antony! And a British male playing Caesar (personally, I though Harrison walked off with the film)! And an American director!

And, I just re-watched one of my favourite crime dramas, "Jack Taylor", starring the once luscious Iaian Glen as the Irish ex-Garda getting into all sorts of trouble, and damme if the man isn't Irish: he's Scottish, for God's sake!!!!!

And damme if that wasn't English James Mason playing Brutus, English John Gielgud playing Cassius, and fucking American MARLON BRANDO playing Antony. in the not bad film version of Julius Caesar in 1953!!!!!

And how come no one told Bill S. that he had some nerve writing a play about ancient history that took place in Rome and Egypt, and there he was, a nobody from Stratford, England?!

There is here, you see, an underlying issue: for a very long time, the black community has been insisting that Cleopatra was black. She wasn't. It's not just that they chose a black actress: it's why they chose the black actress. They also chose a black actress to play Anne Boleyn last year. And Margaret of Anjou in "The Hollow Crown" series a few years ago (never mind that not only did Okonedo look ridiculous in the costumes, she was also 47 and looked more like poor 27 year old Tom Sturridge's mother than his young white French princess bride - yet, despite the absurd age difference and historical dissonance, the director said he never thought of anyone but Okonedo for the part).

No one dared to squawk, of course.

The British Elizabeth Taylor was actually American by then, AND a convert to Judaism via her marriage to Eddie Fisher, soon to be in the same ruins as the great library of Alexandria. Yah, adding insult to injury, Taylor was JEWISH! You are probably too young to know about the uproar in the Middle East to THAT! They refused to play the film there - not because she was a white or British, but because she was Jewish.

For what it's worth, they've also been trying (here in Britain, anyway), to claim that Beethoven was black because he used polyphonic rhythms occasionally. For years, the black classical music community (or a faction of them, anyway) have been insisting that this proves Beethoven was a 'bro; they've been promising for years to put up DNA proof that he was.

Of course, they never do, because there isn't any.

The problem is that rewriting history is dangerous. It's far more dangerous than putting a mega-star actress into a bloated Hollywood vehicle that no one ever was going to see for a history lesson. (Actually, the film was better than most thought it would be, mostly thanks to Harrison, but it hardly qualified for Kenneth Clark's "Civilisation".)

There is a difference in intent. Joseph Mankiewicz wasn't trying to prove that Cleopatra was white or to make a political point or to inform or enlighten. He was trying to make a great deal of money with a cheesy blockbuster, hoping desperately along the way he might insert some theatrical gravitas.

Yeah, no one complained about Taylor playing Cleo.

But no one complained about a statuesque black woman playing the historically white, petite Anne Boleyn, either. No one dared. Or about a 47 year old black woman playing a historical 20-year old white French princess. Or about Dev Patel playing David Copperfield. And now we have a black actress, Sophie Wilde, playing Sophia in a new filming of "Tom Jones" - regardless of the fact that the idea that she could have been is nothing short of ludicrous and undermines the entire gestalt of the novel.

The real racism at work is that you can no longer make an all white filming of anything, in a country that is still 79% white, even if doing anything else is just plain stupid.

by Anonymousreply 44May 12, 2023 1:23 AM

Die mad about it, R44

by Anonymousreply 45May 12, 2023 1:31 AM

It would help if there were an effort in America to teach real history instead of a heavily edited version.

As a kid I think all of us assumed Cleo was Black because she was from Africa. I'm elder gay so schools back then gave no fucks about teaching history to truly educate.

by Anonymousreply 46May 12, 2023 1:40 AM

I saw this advertised on Netflix as a "documentary series" so casting a black actress as Cleo is dumb.

by Anonymousreply 47May 14, 2023 3:58 AM

So you don’t want reality in your documentary’s? Gotcha, Karen.

by Anonymousreply 48May 14, 2023 4:06 AM

[quote] So you don’t want reality in your documentary’s? Gotcha, Karen.

Reality would be someone who looks like a Macedonian/Greek. Moron.

by Anonymousreply 49May 14, 2023 4:32 AM

I just watched it all tonight and while I don’t have any real opinion one way or another, the casting was blatantly colorist.

All of the bad Egyptians, namely the chief advisor to her brother Ptolemy XIII and the other anti-Cleopatra Alexandrians, are portrayed by Caucasian-looking people.

All of the good Egyptians, namely Cleopatra’s chief advisor and her two ladies in waiting, are portrayed by dark-skinned, darker than the lead actress, black people.

The largest influence on the version of history they’ve chosen to tell appears to be Shelley Haley from Hamilton College whose professional expertise focuses on the application of black feminist and race critical approaches to the Classics.

by Anonymousreply 50May 14, 2023 5:01 AM

[quote] Shelley Haley from Hamilton College whose professional expertise focuses on the application of black feminist and race critical approaches to the Classics.

How did this cunt get a job?? Making up shit about Greek/Roman and British history?

by Anonymousreply 51May 14, 2023 5:12 AM

The most historically accurate Cleopatra in a tv show or movie is probably Lyndsey Marshall from HBO's Rome.

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by Anonymousreply 52May 14, 2023 5:16 AM

Cleopatra WAS NOT African; she was 100% Greek (Ptolomy).

by Anonymousreply 53May 14, 2023 5:21 AM

Who are the other Black Queens in Jada Pinkett Smith's series? Are they blacker than Cleopatra?

by Anonymousreply 54May 14, 2023 5:23 AM

Cleopatra murdered her brother to gain sole power over Egypt, she is no role model for black folks.

by Anonymousreply 55May 14, 2023 5:25 AM

R55 She also had sex with her brother.

by Anonymousreply 56May 14, 2023 5:29 AM

Did Cleopatra speak Ancient African Vernacular Egyptian?

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by Anonymousreply 57May 14, 2023 5:30 AM

R56 - So what's your point?

by Anonymousreply 58May 14, 2023 6:28 AM

R58 Ivanka, Cleopatra was also the product of a brother and sister. They liked to keep it all in the family.

by Anonymousreply 59May 14, 2023 6:38 AM

Cleopatra was a Ptolemaic Macedonian named for Cleopatra, the sister of Alexander the Great.

by Anonymousreply 60May 14, 2023 6:44 AM

"The real racism at work is that you can no longer make an all white filming of anything, in a country that is still 79% white, even if doing anything else is just plain stupid."

I hear ya mate even The Crown!

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by Anonymousreply 61May 14, 2023 6:46 AM

Could Markle's obsessed fangirl fuck off?

Interesting bit about Cleopatra's surviving kids (Caesarion disappeared mysteriously). They were raised in Rome by Mark Antony's wife Octavia who apparently was a good stepmother. Only Cleopatra's daughter also named Cleopatra survived to adulthood and was married off to King Juba.

by Anonymousreply 62May 14, 2023 6:50 AM

[quote] was married off to King Juba

Juba the Hutt?

by Anonymousreply 63May 14, 2023 6:53 AM

Caesarion was strangled by Octavian who was of course a white man.

by Anonymousreply 64May 14, 2023 6:59 AM

I tried to do my character in black face. Mostly because I kept falling down drunk and getting black eyes. It would have been easier for the makeup girl to just paint me up like a negro than hide the bruises.

by Anonymousreply 65May 14, 2023 7:00 AM

[quote] Liz the Lush

Did Cleopatra like glaaaaaaaaaaaaadiators?

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by Anonymousreply 66May 14, 2023 7:05 AM

R66 Only if the gladiator could make my radiator whistle…..

by Anonymousreply 67May 14, 2023 7:08 AM

Liz, you truly were the slut of all time.

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by Anonymousreply 68May 14, 2023 7:09 AM

Thank you, honey. Being a whore is what helped me relate to the gays and the AIDS. Just because the fags rode more pole than a lineman didn’t mean they should die.

Hell, if that was the case, I would have been dead by 14……just ask Mr. Mayer, Lassie, and President Regan

by Anonymousreply 69May 14, 2023 7:13 AM

I agree to an extent, r44. My issue with this is not a black actress playing Cleopatra, but rather, that it’s presented as historically accurate.

Beethoven’s DNA has been tested, and his ancestors were all from roughly the same region Beethoven was born in (Bonn). He doesn’t share the Y chromosome with some supposedly in his family line, though. But no African ancestry.

by Anonymousreply 70May 14, 2023 7:16 AM

R50, that sounds hilarious. Did it involve any of the Three Stooges and pies?

by Anonymousreply 71May 14, 2023 7:17 AM

Does it matter what a character's skin tone is for the story? If it does then cast someone with the right skin tone. If it doesn't then cast the best actor for the role.

To tell Cleopatra's story you just need to cast a moderately attractive young woman who would appear sufficiently "exotic" to attract the ire of Roman conservatives. The actress would need to be able to play clever, sexy, ruthless, entitled, brave and desperate... so Jada is not a great casting choice, in my opinion.

by Anonymousreply 72May 14, 2023 7:26 AM

Great casting choice? You rang.

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by Anonymousreply 73May 14, 2023 7:44 AM

[quote]Does it matter what a character's skin tone is for the story? If it does then cast someone with the right skin tone. If it doesn't then cast the best actor for the role.

It matters when it's billed as a documentary.

by Anonymousreply 74May 14, 2023 11:22 AM

[quote] Does it matter what a character's skin tone is for the story?

NPR says this sort of thing is indefensible.

All things considered, don't defy NPR.

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by Anonymousreply 75May 14, 2023 11:44 AM

R64 Caesarion - allegedly - was Julius Caesar's only child. Of course his nephew would want to eliminate him as a future rival.

by Anonymousreply 76May 14, 2023 7:48 PM

Is this a remake? - because I loved the original.

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by Anonymousreply 77May 14, 2023 8:07 PM

Is Jada gonna claim Queen Charlotte, George III's wife, was one of her Black Queens??

by Anonymousreply 78May 14, 2023 8:11 PM

R78, uh, have you seen what the top show on Netflix is?

by Anonymousreply 79May 14, 2023 8:14 PM

I don't watch crappy Netflix shows.

by Anonymousreply 80May 14, 2023 8:17 PM

Cleopatra was Greek not black so bald bitch Jada can go fuck her face baiting self. Now imagine casting Pam Anderson as Billie Holliday? I mean it’s ok to replace historically white figures with black and Latinos now why can’t you do the reverse? Some gay actor said all gay parts need to be cast with only gay actors. Hmmm. What about bi? Asexual? How about a straight character being played by a gay? So do they lose their role (Matt Bomer in White Collar) because of this asinine shit?

by Anonymousreply 81May 14, 2023 9:14 PM

If the African American community of today is laying claim to ancient Egyptian history, surely they'll be happy to accept the blame for enslaving the Hebrews, right?

by Anonymousreply 82May 14, 2023 9:32 PM

R38 That didn't make them Japanese.

by Anonymousreply 83May 14, 2023 11:03 PM

R81: I know, I know. It sucks that black people get to use the n-word and you don't.

Truly, white actors not playing black characters is the civil rights issue of our time.

*rolls eyes*

by Anonymousreply 84May 14, 2023 11:08 PM

I’m confused… I searched Netflix for “Black Cleopatra” and nothing came up

by Anonymousreply 85May 14, 2023 11:11 PM

The sad thing about this is that there were really black historical figures who are little known today but led very interesting lives. Rather than claiming Beethoven is black, why not write a movie about Beethoven’s friend, George Bridgetower, a violinist and composer who was well known and respected at the time. Nobody knows who he is because they’re too busy making the hundredth Batman movie, or black Cleopatra or whatever.

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by Anonymousreply 86May 15, 2023 2:20 AM

Try "Kween Cleopatra" r85

by Anonymousreply 87May 15, 2023 2:26 AM

R84 Apparently you don't either.

by Anonymousreply 88May 15, 2023 3:15 AM

As if Egyptians are white.

by Anonymousreply 89May 15, 2023 3:25 AM

Well, this turned into shit, but how about this? A polka dot Cleopatra!

by Anonymousreply 90May 15, 2023 3:31 AM

King Menes united upper and lower Egypt. Lower Egypt was fairer near the Nile Delta and they painted themselves red. The black Egyptians in the south near Nubians and Kingdom of Kush were black.

They were diverse and don't forget the Hebrews and aliens. People came from all around to see the great alien Stargate in the pyramids.

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by Anonymousreply 91May 15, 2023 4:22 AM

I actually tried watching this but it was ridiculous. Not that a Black woman was portraying Cleopatra but that she was portrayed as some Amazonian warrior wielding a sword. She was known as an educated woman who lead her army but she didn't engage in battle herself.

by Anonymousreply 92May 15, 2023 4:30 AM

Oh R84 stop virtue signaling and get off your high horse. No one said they wanted to use the NWord, but they had a valid argument. It’s true Cleopatra was Greek not Black. So why is Jada (the jerk off) rewriting history? And yeah if that’s the case, how come a white actress isn’t playing a black historical figure? Or best scenario: the person who is the actor who best resembles the subject matter gets the job and we all just watch the show without making it a race issue.

by Anonymousreply 93May 16, 2023 6:05 AM

Rotten Tomatoes ratings

Genres: Documentary, History

Tomatometer 10%

Audience Score 2%

The Times (UK) -- It is patchy sub-Game of Thrones cosplay interwoven with academics you’ve never heard of.

Daily Telegraph -- ... It's too soapy for serious history fans, and not enough of a soap for viewers who like juicy historical dramas.

by Anonymousreply 94May 16, 2023 11:24 AM

Checked out the IMDB of the actress playing Cleo. Her major claim to fame is having a supporting role on the Brit TV soap Casualty. She must have been cheap.

by Anonymousreply 95May 16, 2023 8:37 PM

Well the reviews are extremely bad, and it's not only review bombing. The critics hated it too.

And yes, Cleopatra was not black and every historian with a brain knows that but it seems this is the last problem of the documentary which most critics said it's completely inaccurate

by Anonymousreply 96May 16, 2023 8:51 PM

Amen R93 !

by Anonymousreply 97May 16, 2023 11:47 PM

The actress who plays Cleo seems to be cut out of the Jada mold. Says that anyone who criticizes it is racist, including Egypt.

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by Anonymousreply 98May 17, 2023 12:35 AM

They all say that. From the black Tinker Bell to the black Ariel, they all defiantly say anyone who doesn’t like their casting is racist. I think this doesn’t ingratiate them to the viewing audience and could hurt their careers going forward.

by Anonymousreply 99May 17, 2023 12:40 AM

Yet another attempt to change history in favor of black people. Cleopatra was NOT black. I wish they'd stop trying to change what is/was. Oh no, now one of those meatheads will call me racist. Just more of the same old tired race card bullshit. Arrrrrrgggh!

by Anonymousreply 100May 17, 2023 12:45 AM

Just surface-level here, but in light of the fact that she's a complete and total fucking sociopathic cunt, I find this hilarious. The film is sitting at a 2% on Rotten Tomatoes.

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by Anonymousreply 101May 17, 2023 12:46 AM

The American far-left wants equity in history. So that means giving it a rewrite.

We must now create a history for blacks ....as leaders, inventors, writers, scientists, builders, designers, engineers, explorers...that simply never existed. So of course one of the greatest and iconic women in history must now be black.

by Anonymousreply 102May 17, 2023 1:00 AM

R99 The big difference is The little mermaid and Peter Pan are fiction works so they can reimagine the characters the way they want.

This on the other hand is a documentary, so accuracy is very important

It seems there's some fear in the USA to criticise anything black right now (i read really crappy novels from black authors with amazing reviews) but that's not the case in the rest of the world

by Anonymousreply 103May 17, 2023 6:38 PM

I think a lot of you are confusing Cleopatra with Nefertiti. I am black and never grew up thinking Cleopatra was black (although I definitely knew she wasn't white) and no one I knew who was black insisted that she was. Nefertiti was another story, however.

by Anonymousreply 104May 17, 2023 6:52 PM

R104, one of the main problems I had with the series was that in the first moments they featured the primary source expert recounting a story from her grandmother saying:

[qoute] “after learning about ancient Egypt in elementary school, I went home and my grandmother told me, “No matter what they tell in school, Cleopatra was black.”

It was a horrible way to introduce the main, scholarly expert used in a docu-drama, no matter how schlocky.

by Anonymousreply 105May 17, 2023 7:01 PM

Nefertiti wasn't black either. She was Egyptian. Egyptians are not black Africans.

by Anonymousreply 106May 17, 2023 7:44 PM

[quote] It’s funny how absolutely no one has an issue with British Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra.

Taylor was American.

by Anonymousreply 107May 17, 2023 7:45 PM

In fact, in the hieroglyphics, the Egyptians clearly delineated via the visual style (color, style, etc.) Egyptians vs. Nubians (who were black) vs. other ethnicities.

Stop "Blackwashing" shit.

by Anonymousreply 108May 17, 2023 7:46 PM

Americans are so fucking stupid and ignorant.

by Anonymousreply 109May 17, 2023 7:52 PM

It's very simple. There are a lot of roman documents about egiptians. If Cleopatra was black it will be well known because that won't be something the historians wouldn't mentioned

by Anonymousreply 110May 17, 2023 7:58 PM

[Quote]Nefertiti wasn't black either. She was Egyptian. Egyptians are not black Africans.

Americans use a different set of rules to determine who's Black. That's why Meghan Markle is considered Black by many Americans. Nefertiti, by using the American color scheme, would be also considered Black.

I'm aware that this is totally different outside of the United States. (And also England, apparently.)

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by Anonymousreply 111May 17, 2023 8:41 PM

Of course, it's not just that she had a particular skin color, which in and of itself is pretty trivial, although our culture for going on 400 years, considers it all important. The whole mentality behind this alleged documentary is so wrong-headed. The idea that Cleopatra wasn't just black, but was part of some black "sisterhood" that she would completely reject is what is so ridiculous here. The idea that African queens would feel any solidarity at all with modern American black people is silly. Cleopatra wouldn't feel sisterhood with anybody (she even hated her own sisters and brother). She was, in her own mind, the incarnation of Isis and a royal set apart, a uniquely important person in the world, chosen by the gods to sit upon a throne.

The truth is, whatever her exact skin tone (which was almost certainly white, but that isn't the key point), she would have much more in common with Jefferson Davis than Harriet Tubman. Pro slavery, pro hierarchy, devoid of any sense that everyone had rights and freedom or any of that.

Admittedly, in the same way Julius Caesar and Marc Antony wouldn't give a flying fuck about the average white American or think they were anything other than little worker bees who should all shut the fuck up and serve their betters. White solidarity, black solidarity, is all complete bullshit in the context of the ancient world and everybody should stop pretending to themselves it existed at all.

by Anonymousreply 112May 17, 2023 8:52 PM

Frankly, diversity would have dictated that Cleo be played by a black transwoman. Missed an opportunity there.

by Anonymousreply 113May 17, 2023 8:54 PM

[quote] Nefertiti, by using the American color scheme, would be also considered Black.

She would be considered "Middle Eastern," which is the catch-all phrase for Arab-appearing people. Even if they're not geographically from the Middle East.

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by Anonymousreply 114May 17, 2023 9:33 PM

Nefertiti facial reconstruction.

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by Anonymousreply 115May 17, 2023 9:36 PM

Probably r114, but in the U.S. ever since it began, there are only two real categories: white and non-white. She would be non-white and therefore a problem as anything other than a slave or a low-wage worker. We really are insanely stuck on that subject, and that is probably the hardest thing to convey about all of the ancient world. That they didn't live in our world where skin color was, next to gender (a whole other thing these days with its own obsessions), the single most important thing about everybody.

by Anonymousreply 116May 18, 2023 2:38 AM

R116 Cleopatra wasn't American, dearie.

by Anonymousreply 117May 18, 2023 3:09 AM

Yes, that actually wasn't the point r117. But thank you for clarifying, and sort of clarifying yourself at the same time.

by Anonymousreply 118May 18, 2023 3:11 AM

R118 well you clarified yourself as a provincial American who has no fucking idea how the rest of the world operates.

by Anonymousreply 119May 18, 2023 3:15 AM

You just haven't a clue, have you r119? Just lost.

by Anonymousreply 120May 18, 2023 3:17 AM

This is the lowest rated show/movie/anything ever on the IMDb with a rating of 1 from 60K voters.

by Anonymousreply 121May 18, 2023 3:19 AM

[quote] That's why Meghan Markle is considered Black by many Americans.

Yes. Had she not married Harry I expect by now Meghan would have portrayed Mammy in the Gone With the Wind remake.

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by Anonymousreply 122May 18, 2023 3:26 AM

Who let that insufferable twat produce anything? She is such an asshole.

by Anonymousreply 123May 18, 2023 3:27 AM

You know they just get you all to fret over this shit to distract you from taking to the streets and demanding universal health care and a living wage.

by Anonymousreply 124May 18, 2023 3:58 AM

Today Cory Bush and Barbara Lee along with the Squad and hangers-on announced they were going to demand that the US govt pay $14 trillion in reparations not only to all descendants of African-American slaves but any sorta black person in the country. So black Americans will be able to each produce their very own movie about Black Queens.

by Anonymousreply 125May 18, 2023 5:21 AM

I'll never understand why for centuries White people have gotten such a hardon telling Black who people they are. Like brick hard.

by Anonymousreply 126May 18, 2023 7:04 AM

White people have been playing mexicans, asians, middle eastern, even black people forever in movies and no one batted an eyelash. But god forbid a darker skin women gets cast to play Cleopatra, an actual African, and you all have to pull out the Rosetta Stone.

Black isn't a color, it's blood - a rule set up by white people, btw, because of their incessant need to delineate and separate the human race that has poisoned the rest of the world. Don't you know arguing this point about the color of a woman's skin like banshees just makes you look bad?

by Anonymousreply 127May 18, 2023 7:17 AM

That a black actress is playing Cleopatra is not the issue. It’s that this is allegedly a documentary, where “historians” claim Cleopatra was black.

by Anonymousreply 128May 18, 2023 7:48 AM

R127 It's a DOCUMENTARY dummy! That's the issue.

by Anonymousreply 129May 18, 2023 8:11 AM

Nefertiti wasn't black either - nobody is certain of her background, but there is a likely possibility she was from ancient Mitanni (modern Iraq).

We have the famous bust of Nefertiti which is painted and shows she isn't black and coloured reliefs of her with light skin - none of these show the traditionally black features which the ancient Egyptians regularly employed in art at all. It's mind boggling to me how many people insist she was black when she clearly wasn't. Why not make documentaries about amazing people in history who WERE black. There are enough of them and we never hear about them.

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by Anonymousreply 130May 18, 2023 8:45 AM

What I am bringing to light is that white people delineate black as a color only and NOT a culture. Their idea of what black is very limited to the color of sub-saharan Africans skin. I was very surprised, having grown up as a black American under the western world's idea of what black is, that a Turkish friend of mine considered himself black. Who am I to say, no he is not?

Oddly enough, this is my issue with financial reparations in the United States. Who is to say who is black and who isn't, whose ancestors were affected by American slavery and whose were not? Grace Jones for instance has no familial history of American Slavery, yet someone like Carol Channing does. Would that mean Carol Channing's kid would get a cut because he has ancestors who were slaves even though I am sure he grew up identifying as white? No one is mentioning this.

by Anonymousreply 131May 18, 2023 2:07 PM

[quote]Cleopatra, an actual African

Have you been reading this thread?

by Anonymousreply 132May 18, 2023 2:24 PM

Cleopatra was white. This movie is trash.

by Anonymousreply 133May 18, 2023 2:26 PM

R131, if you’re arguing that people can choose to identify as black simply because of shared culture, then get ready for some major pushback from other black people because that is definitely not how the vast majority of them see it based on the reaction to Racheal Dolezal.

by Anonymousreply 134May 18, 2023 2:26 PM

I may have to turn in my gay card but other than having alopeica and being Will Smith's wife, what was Jada Pinkett-Smith's claim to fame? Why does she seem to influence everything so much - like the quotas of the Academy Awards? Why do people listen to her? (By the way, has Will's Oscars incident had any effect on his career?)

by Anonymousreply 135May 18, 2023 2:32 PM

Because no one dare push back on a loud-mouthed black woman, lest they be labeled with the worst label one can have - racist. It will destroy a career.

by Anonymousreply 136May 18, 2023 2:43 PM

People who love to defend this kind of 'Black Cleopatra' also love to frequently talk about the oppressors/privileged, the oppressed/marginalised, hierarchy, colonialism, imperialism, evil white western past, evil first world's past vs. oppressed third world, poorer, exploited, less developed countries.

This is literally cultural imperialism and colonialism. Forced from one rich powerful influential country, the US, onto an independent, non-western ('third world') country with their own history and every right to call out the cultural colonialists' bullshit gaslighting pressure. Black Americans may be oppressed in the US but everywhere else, they are Americans, spreading the same cultural colonialism onto 'lesser' countries.

by Anonymousreply 137May 18, 2023 2:49 PM

[quote] White people have been playing mexicans, asians, middle eastern, even black people forever in movies and no one batted an eyelash. But god forbid a darker skin women gets cast to play Cleopatra, an actual African, and you all have to pull out the Rosetta Stone.

R127 needs to "sit down" and shut up. And maybe go back to her "no child left behind" school to learn the difference between "documentary" and "dramatic fiction"

How triflin'!

by Anonymousreply 138May 18, 2023 8:08 PM

Who are Jada Pinkett's other Black Queens? Are they not black either?

by Anonymousreply 139May 18, 2023 8:14 PM

For those who ask for the definition of " woke," read this.

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by Anonymousreply 140May 18, 2023 8:32 PM

Vogue. Giggle.

by Anonymousreply 141May 18, 2023 8:44 PM

Spectator.co.uk May 20, 2023

James Walton

Watching Queen Cleopatra felt like witnessing the death of scholarship

The most controversial aspect of Netflix’s new drama-documentary Queen Cleopatra – not least in Egypt – was the casting of a black actress, Adele James, in the title role. After all, one of the few things that seems certain about Cleopatra’s early life is that she was a Macedonian Greek. Luckily, though, the show had a powerful counterargument to this awkward and Eurocentric fact. As the African-American professor Shelley P. Haley put it with a QED-style flourish, back when she was girl, her beloved (if uneducated) grandmother once said to her: ‘I don’t care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was black.’

And of course, given the series’ entirely unhidden agenda, being a black woman also means that Cleopatra ‘ruled with unparalleled power’, ‘bowed to no man’ and was basically great at everything. In the talking-heads sections, we were assured again and again what a strong and empowered feminist she’d been. In the drama bits, we saw her whooping male ass in sword fights; proving that she was ‘first and foremost a scholar’ by looking thoughtful beside a pile of manuscripts; poring over military maps while asking her generals, ‘if we target the northern defences, do we leave ourselves vulnerable at our eastern ports?’; giving Julius Caesar handy architectural tips about his new library; and airily besting Cicero in political debate.

Not that any of this prevented her from also being hot in the sack. In the words of another supposed scholar – and apparent clairvoyant: ‘Julius Caesar would never have met a woman like Cleopatra with complete control and confidence in her own possession of her sexuality and her identity.’

If you looked carefully amid the fantasising and wish-fulfilment, the programme did sometimes offer some actual history, with particular reference to the rise of Rome and the related decline of Egyptian power. The obvious trouble, however, is that because of its weirdly unashamed lack of objectivity, you couldn’t trust any of it. Perhaps this is a bit much to lay on a rubbishy Netflix four-parter, but watching Queen Cleopatra felt alarmingly like witnessing the death of scholarship.

CONT'D

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by Anonymousreply 142May 19, 2023 12:39 AM

^^^^ I wrote "CONT'D" at the end in error. The rest of the piece is a review of a different show.

by Anonymousreply 143May 19, 2023 12:40 AM

The problem with Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleo was that she looked absolutely nothing like her. Not her race, since Cleo was overwhelmingly Macedonian Greek in ancestry (with some distant Persian ancestry). There is literally zero evidence she had any indigenous Egyptian (or other African) blood. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either speculating based on some of her ancestors being unknown, or is straight out lying. Contemporary Roman depictions including busts and paintings not only show her with caucasian features, but some paintings of her from the time depict her as a very white skinned redhead.

by Anonymousreply 144May 19, 2023 12:52 AM

R144 Liz played Cleo 60 years ago. The race card hadn't yet been invented.

by Anonymousreply 145May 19, 2023 12:54 AM

[quote] Watching Queen Cleopatra felt like witnessing the death of scholarship

Scholarship is racist. Along with grammar, cursive, punctuality, and science generally

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by Anonymousreply 146May 19, 2023 2:17 AM

I'm actually surprised at how decisive the rejection of this revisionist history has been. Until now a lot of more moderate voices were happy to keep quiet, or maybe were too scared to say anything, to avoid the usual accusations. This might be a turning point.

by Anonymousreply 147May 19, 2023 6:40 AM

I was surprised too. And I’m sure Netflix is surprised too. They were expecting everyone to be like “Yeah, gurl, she is fierce” and embrace it like they did Bridgerton. If this is a turning point, how will it affect The Little Mermaid’s opening next week? Will people embrace that?

by Anonymousreply 148May 19, 2023 7:14 AM

The Vogue piece is a joke.

by Anonymousreply 149May 19, 2023 7:16 AM

I saw a headline where Jada was blaming the backlash on White Supremacy.

I had no idea there were so many of them in modern Egyptian society.

by Anonymousreply 150May 19, 2023 7:18 AM

r147 Maybe because the complainers (Egyptians) are what they consider as part of the oppressed group ("brown", North African, Muslims - I know not all of them are -, non-white, non-western, third world, victims of the white western colonialism, etc.), they get heard...

by Anonymousreply 151May 19, 2023 7:19 AM

The Little Mermaid is fiction, so not the same issue as Cleopatra. History should be bound strictly to facts. Fiction has more latitude.

by Anonymousreply 152May 19, 2023 7:20 AM

[quote] The sad thing about this is that there were really black historical figures who are little known today but led very interesting lives. Rather than claiming Beethoven is black, why not write a movie about Beethoven’s friend, George Bridgetower, a violinist and composer who was well known and respected at the time. Nobody knows who he is because they’re too busy making the hundredth Batman movie, or black Cleopatra or whatever.

r86 Things like that (along with unknown African history) sound very interesting and fresh but those take efforts to make researches and creators (including many whites) are intellectually lazy.

by Anonymousreply 153May 19, 2023 7:25 AM

I've always wished someone would make a movie (or series) on the adventures of Alexander Dumas' black father Thomas-Alexandre, who was a very celebrated war hero in his own lifetime and one of Napolean's most important generals.

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by Anonymousreply 154May 19, 2023 7:33 AM

[quote]Rather than claiming Beethoven is black, why not write a movie about Beethoven’s friend, George Bridgetower, a violinist and composer who was well known and respected at the time.

They did just release a movie like that called Caviar.

by Anonymousreply 155May 19, 2023 7:36 AM

zzzzzzz racist stormfront thread as per usual, are there any good history threads on the DL anymore?

by Anonymousreply 156May 19, 2023 7:55 AM

R140: I made the mistake of reading that Vogue piece by Sagal Mohammed and it was just a series of appeals to emotion (shame, outrage, horror over racist abuse by a sub-section of the people who object to this revisionism) but doesn't touch on the historical facts or the concerns of Egyptians on any meaningful level. This writer even gratuitously suggests Cleo's mom "might" have been Egyptian, leading her uneducated readers to naturally assume there would be good reason for her to think this might be so, when there is exactly ZERO evidence. The "might" is entirely speculative on the part of the writer and flies in the face of Cleo's known family tree and the known cultural practices of her family at the time. Absolute trash writing by someone who has no grounding AT ALL in the subject matter.

by Anonymousreply 157May 19, 2023 7:59 AM

So now to believe all the available historical souces showing that Cleopatra was a Greek/Macedonian redhead means one "supports Stormfront"?

R156 You are a good example of why the woke will eventually lose. You and your comrades are simply too laughably ridiculous, and alienate everyone who might otherwise be allies in some of your causes.

by Anonymousreply 158May 19, 2023 8:03 AM

[quote] This writer even gratuitously suggests Cleo's mom "might" have been Egyptian, leading her uneducated readers to naturally assume there would be good reason for her to think this might be so,

Not only that, if there comments allowed on that Vogue article, we could point out that:

1. Based on the known practices of the Ptolemy's, they intermarried (often brother to sister). It is highly UNLIKELY her mother was Egyptian, but very LIKELY she was a Ptolemy

2. The fact that her mother is "unknown", if we assume the UNLIKELY possibility her mother was NOT a Ptolemy, then she could've been ANYTHING. She could've been Martian for all we know. WTF

3. Even if her mother WERE Egyptian, ancient Egyptians WERE NOT BLACK! Nubians----were dark skinned. Nubians were not Egyptians. The Egyptians hieroglyphs even depict them as distinct from the Ancient Egyptians.

by Anonymousreply 159May 19, 2023 8:04 AM

Retardino at R21 Liz Taylor is Macedonian passing, the black woman isn't.

And idiots like you using word racism for banalities, have really worn out the word.

by Anonymousreply 160May 19, 2023 8:09 AM

R41 MJ was more convincing as a Macedonian woman

by Anonymousreply 161May 19, 2023 8:12 AM

[quote] Absolute trash writing by someone who has no grounding AT ALL in the subject matter.

Welcome to DEI academia

by Anonymousreply 162May 19, 2023 8:14 AM

Is there any other kind of academia nowadays, r162?

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped."

- George Orwell, 1984

by Anonymousreply 163May 19, 2023 8:17 AM

[quote]So now to believe all the available historical souces showing that Cleopatra was a Greek/Macedonian redhead means one "supports Stormfront"? [R156] You are a good example of why the woke will eventually lose. You and your comrades are simply too laughably ridiculous, and alienate everyone who might otherwise be allies in some of your causes.

Says the right wing Nazi cunt.

by Anonymousreply 164May 19, 2023 8:33 AM

Again, r164. You are why the Woke will lose.

by Anonymousreply 165May 19, 2023 8:39 AM

What does "woke" mean R165? Can you provide a definition please?

by Anonymousreply 166May 19, 2023 8:40 AM

R164 you are stupid, he is no Nazi, though he is gullible to call wokes comrades.

Wokes are just dirty little upper class servants of capital. (for R166 too).

How can you cock suckers here be such idiots to believe woke media like Washington post owned by infamous Jeff Bezos.

by Anonymousreply 167May 19, 2023 8:41 AM

Can we cut the trolling shit, personal abuse and left-right crap, and just talk about the subject matter at hand?

Sass is fine,. Repetitive abuse just makes you look like a meth addict stabbing at your keyboard.

Back to Cleopatra please.

by Anonymousreply 168May 19, 2023 8:44 AM

Why the fuck is a nasty little snivelling cunt like you on a gay website R167?

Oh, I know why. You're here for the anti-trans threads aren't you...

by Anonymousreply 169May 19, 2023 8:46 AM

Thank you, r167.

by Anonymousreply 170May 19, 2023 8:46 AM

You're the one who doesn't belong here, r169.

by Anonymousreply 171May 19, 2023 8:47 AM

I'm a gay man R171. I belong here.

by Anonymousreply 172May 19, 2023 8:49 AM

First of all I don't believe you, r172, and secondly, No. You really, really don't, r172.

by Anonymousreply 173May 19, 2023 8:50 AM

But is she trans!

by Anonymousreply 174May 19, 2023 8:51 AM

Yes, r174. I think Jada & co missed a trick there.

by Anonymousreply 175May 19, 2023 8:54 AM

R174: You may joke but there will be academics (although not in real disciplines) who would absolutely now suggest she was "non binary" because she took on some ceremonially male roles as the Pharaoh, and should now be referred to as they'them.

by Anonymousreply 176May 19, 2023 8:56 AM

Now you rendition it some of the few surviving images of Hatshepsut show her wearing the ceremonial beard of a male Pharaoh. That should give them something to work with.

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by Anonymousreply 177May 19, 2023 9:03 AM

I don't give a flying fuck [bold]WHAT[bold] you believe R173. You're clearly a basic idiot. You're Dutchie aren't you. I can smell your foul angry stench from here.

by Anonymousreply 178May 19, 2023 9:08 AM

r176 Legit cultural institutions already do this. Tate gallery made a real historical person Marlow Moss - British-Jewish lesbian sculptor whose female romantic partner/writer called this artist as nothing but she/her/woman - as "they/them/theirs" with this explaining on the website:

"Perhaps if Marlow was alive today, the artist would identify as transgender, which means that your gender is different to the one that the doctors or midwives presumed you were when you were born, or non-binary, which means that neither the word “boy” nor “girl” are a good fit for you."

And left-leaning major publications in France have already printed multiple "Jeanne d'Arc = non-binary or FTM" articles, written by 'specialists' with art history (+ gender studies type) degrees.

by Anonymousreply 179May 19, 2023 9:21 AM

No, delusional insane person at r178. I am not "Dutchie". I am myself, and I think you are hilariously failed, as human beings go.

by Anonymousreply 180May 19, 2023 9:24 AM

Indeed r179. It reminds me of the ludicrous episode where a pro-migration activist, who is also some kind of low-level archeologist in Sweden, attempted to claim that Viking funereal items showed the word "Allah" on them, and so there "must have been Muslims in Viking Sweden"

A lie that ran around the world, being breathlessly reported by the BBC and NYT etc, until it was completely debunked as wishful thinking.

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by Anonymousreply 181May 19, 2023 9:33 AM

[quote]And left-leaning major publications in France have already printed multiple "Jeanne d'Arc = non-binary or FTM" articles, written by 'specialists' with art history (+ gender studies type) degrees.

And they would act surprised afterwards when working class votes for Marine le Pen

by Anonymousreply 182May 19, 2023 9:37 AM

Exactly, r182.

by Anonymousreply 183May 19, 2023 9:41 AM

[quote] "Jeanne d'Arc = non-binary or FTM"

You really don't need a degree in medieval history to realize the Inquisitors would have added that to her charges if she had made any such claims. It was bad enough a woman wore trousers.

by Anonymousreply 184May 19, 2023 9:59 AM

Excellent point, r184.

by Anonymousreply 185May 19, 2023 10:04 AM

Teaching about Joan of Arc would be illegal in Florida. And, anyone who attends this place needs to be arrested for violating state law.

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by Anonymousreply 186May 19, 2023 1:18 PM

How so, r186?

by Anonymousreply 187May 19, 2023 1:24 PM

Tempest in a teapot.

Guess what--no one cares.

by Anonymousreply 188May 19, 2023 1:32 PM

[quote] What does "woke" mean [R165]? Can you provide a definition please?

Conservative definition of "woke" = includes Black people

by Anonymousreply 189May 19, 2023 1:33 PM

Cleopatra was a white, Grecian woman, whose antecedants included WHITE blond, blue-eyed Macedonians and also WHITE blue-eyed Persians.

These are the FACTS.

by Anonymousreply 190May 19, 2023 1:39 PM

[quote]How so, [R186]?

A woman dressed up as a man, doing a job that a man should do? Obviously a lesbian. We don't allow that in Florida. I just signed a bill that changes the names of all St. Jan of Arc churches to Pope Benedict XVI Catholic Church.

by Anonymousreply 191May 19, 2023 2:09 PM

Ok honey. Back inthe real world we don't tend to associate ancient rulers of Egypt with the temporary managers of fucking Florida.

by Anonymousreply 192May 19, 2023 2:16 PM

I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. I just watched the trailer and it indeed looks like trash. I was responding more to the argument of black people playing roles in narrative, fictional films, for which they aren't usually cast that I have no problem with. But if you are going to go out of your way to create a documentary as a way to educate people on a historical figure, you might as well try to be as historically accurate as possible in this day and age. To insist that Cleopatra was a black women in a documentary is not right. She wasn't.

As a side note, I do find it funny that as Americans, no matter the race of the actor, we just accept British speaking people as historically accurate. Like we would never accept an American sounding Julius Ceaser. And we wouldn't accept an Italian actor speaking English. British actors are the go to for all things historical. Any actor portraying a non American previous to 1900 has to have an English accent in an English speaking film.

And by far, my favorite portrayal of Cleopatra was in the HBO series Rome. It is probably the most accurate depiction. I love how they have her start off as an opium junkie in exile brought back by Julius Ceaser to assume the throne. Even though they play with historical timelines and actual events, it gives you an overall feel for the characters themselves. Cleopatra is portrayed as intelligent, cunning, strong and resourceful. And you get a clear idea of what it would be like to grow up thinking you are an actual god.

The clip below is when Cleopatra first meets Julius Ceaser and returns to the throne.

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by Anonymousreply 193May 19, 2023 2:26 PM

Lyndsey Marshal, who played Cleo in HBO's Rome, actually looked crazily like Cleopatra did, as depicted in her known busts and coins. The resemblance is remarkable. But if the Pompeii images of Cleo are accurate, the real Cleo had red hair. So that one detail in Rome was wrong.

by Anonymousreply 194May 19, 2023 2:39 PM

Let's do a documentary on the Native American slavers.

You know, the ones SO adamant about keeping black slaves that the US government granted them a TEN YEAR extension on keeping their slaves after it became illegal in the rest of the United States.

by Anonymousreply 195May 19, 2023 2:43 PM

^ Or, alternatively, let's talk about Cleopatra, the show and the person, and leave inflammatory racial trolling out of this.

by Anonymousreply 196May 19, 2023 2:45 PM

[quote] Cleopatra was a white, Grecian woman, whose antecedants included WHITE blond, blue-eyed Macedonians and also WHITE blue-eyed Persians.

The Greeks weren't white either

by Anonymousreply 197May 19, 2023 2:46 PM

Interesting that no one cares about accuracy in height, weight, etc. They ONLY care about race

by Anonymousreply 198May 19, 2023 2:48 PM

Greeks are white. Macedonians were certainly white. Alexander, who installed his cousins the Ptolemys into Egypt was "tawny" or "lion-coloured" , with blue eyes.

by Anonymousreply 199May 19, 2023 2:52 PM

I find it interesting that so many people genuinely seem to find her likely status as a red head so offensive. It bothers so many people, they don't want to hear it. People will outright deny it or start shrieking about henna. For some reason a lot of people find it incredibly triggering. But all the surviving Roman paintings from the time show her with red hair. Every. Single. One.

I blame 20th century film and TV depictions, people have this set idea of her they don't want challenged.

by Anonymousreply 200May 19, 2023 2:53 PM

[quote] Greeks are white. Macedonians were certainly white. Alexander, who installed his cousins the Ptolemys into Egypt was "tawny" or "lion-coloured" , with blue eyes.

No one in the Balkans has ever been white. It's just fits a narrative to pretend all the Greeks were

by Anonymousreply 201May 19, 2023 2:54 PM

Blue eyes does not equal white. North Indians often have blue eyes. They're not white

by Anonymousreply 202May 19, 2023 2:55 PM

The race baiters are missing a trick here: the Ptolemys were BRUTAL to their many slaves. All of whom were black.

by Anonymousreply 203May 19, 2023 2:55 PM

So, now, according to the 1984 Committee, blue-eyed people are not white?

FUN!

by Anonymousreply 204May 19, 2023 2:57 PM

The definition of "white" is fluid, or at least it was. Just look at American attitudes towards immigrants from Italy and other regions of the Mediterranean in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

by Anonymousreply 205May 19, 2023 2:58 PM

[quote] The race baiters are missing a trick here: the Ptolemys were BRUTAL to their many slaves. All of whom were black.

No evidence that any of the slaves were black. They were more likely brown

by Anonymousreply 206May 19, 2023 2:59 PM

Look at all these people with blue eyes! They must all be white

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by Anonymousreply 207May 19, 2023 3:00 PM

"The definition of white is fluid"

I'm listening. And expecting you to explain exactly what you mean.

(Which, of course, you won't.)

by Anonymousreply 208May 19, 2023 3:01 PM

Yes, r207. Irish slaves existed too. Cromwell sent them to the Caribbean. Irish women were intentionally "married" to African men so that the slavers could have an identifiable (mixed) group of slave population.

by Anonymousreply 209May 19, 2023 3:04 PM

You see blue eyes in Northern Africa too.

Do you want to know why?

Because the greatest slavers the world has EVER SEEN are Arabs.

The Arab slavers wanted white meat so badly that they went as far as Ireland to steal white humans. They stole an entire town - the town of Baltimore, Ireland - in 1631.

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by Anonymousreply 210May 19, 2023 3:09 PM

R)28 I will explain: immigrants to America from Italy were once not considered white.

by Anonymousreply 211May 19, 2023 3:11 PM

The Arab slavers actually went as far as Iceland to do that. But this. is a conversation about Cleopatra.

by Anonymousreply 212May 19, 2023 3:11 PM

[quote] But if the Pompeii images of Cleo are accurate, the real Cleo had red hair

Red wigs for women were fashionable to wealthy Roman women on this period. It wouldn't be surprising for Cleo to be so depicted.

Prostitutes would wear blonde wigs.

Germany supplied the blonde hair and Celtic Britain the red.

by Anonymousreply 213May 19, 2023 3:15 PM

R213: Or she could have simply had actual red hair. Artistic depictions of ancient Macedonians include people with unambiguously red hair. And Alexandria today is known in Egypt for its red haired population. They are a minority but a pretty visible one.

by Anonymousreply 214May 19, 2023 3:19 PM
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by Anonymousreply 215May 19, 2023 3:21 PM

White and Black were descriptions made up in America to push its segregation agenda,

Always fun when people force it on the rest of the world

by Anonymousreply 216May 19, 2023 3:22 PM
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by Anonymousreply 217May 19, 2023 3:23 PM
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by Anonymousreply 218May 19, 2023 3:24 PM
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by Anonymousreply 219May 19, 2023 3:26 PM

It doesn’t surprise me Egyptians are mad. They are all very proud of the ancient kings and queens and think of them as their heritage. Ignorant foreigners messing with their history would be a national insult to them.

There is a reconstruction of Akhenaten’s stone casket at one of the museums in Egypt. Akhenaten was despised in ancient times because he banned all the old religious beliefs and insisted everyone worship the one god, Aten, the sun god. Decades ago, American historians seemed to believe this meant Akhenaten was a very progressive, modern guy and the ancient Egyptians just didn’t understand how modern he was. But it turns out he wanted the “one god” concept because he was actually referring to himself as the representative of Aten on earth, that is, kind of an absolute representative of God on earth. They never had that before, they had multiple gods everybody worshipped, so he was cleaning the slate to benefit himself personally. They thought of him as an egomaniac, kind of an ancient Trump.

The ancient Egyptians hated him so much when he died, they smashed up every image of him they could find, because their belief was, the worst thing that could ever happen is for you to be forgotten. So they tried to destroy every image about him. It’s very hard to know much about him and his family, and it’s taken decades to piece together much. That’s why his wife Nefertiti is kind of mysterious too. Nefertiti might have been thought of towards the end as an ancient Melania, a co-conspirator or supporter of an asshole. It’s now believed Nefertiti was murdered, there is a mummy that may be her that looks like she died of an axe to the face. That woman is believed to have died slowly in agony over days. There isn’t good documentation of her identity, but there was dna and I believe she’s believed to be related to an older verified queen or other royal family member. This means she is not a foreigner, probably a relative of Akhenaten.

Back in the day brothers and sisters married, uncle and niece, etc. They weren’t marrying foreigners, because they wanted to keep the bloodline pure. And when Akhenaten died, his heir quickly went back to the multiple gods idea as fast as possible, because it looks like there was some sort of rampage where a bunch of royals and others were killed. A coup and a period of instability where any survivors were just trying not to be killed too. Archeologists are slowly getting more information about who these people were and what they did, because a lot of what has been discovered so far is smashed up on purpose, to dishonor Akhenaten. People were very angry, he took a shit on their religious beliefs of thousands of years for his own ego.

At least until fairly recently, the stone casket of Akhenaten was kept in the back of a museum, outside, not inside in a place of honor, and people were throwing their trash in it. That’s how personal this stuff is to Egyptians. To them, the memory of these people lives on in an intimate way, as if they were still alive. They honor them according to the ancient religion, that says as long as your name is remembered, you live on. Akhenaten isn’t remembered as a hero, but a sort of blasphemous villain by many.

To them, changing Cleopatra, or any of these stories they know so well, isn’t just cultural appropriation. It’s like if you said Jesus was an atheist drunk in a clown suit or something. It’s sacrilege. Only an American would be so disrespectful and arrogant. And this insult is personal to them. It’s not about some nobody actress with an overblown ego. It’s about an insult to their most important beliefs about the origins of their country. It’s like the equivalent of pissing on the American flag to them.

by Anonymousreply 220May 19, 2023 3:26 PM

White people were slaves.

No one wants to deal with that fact, but it remains a fact.

I look forward to the Irish commanding reparations from the Caribbeans who tortured them.

by Anonymousreply 221May 19, 2023 3:30 PM

[quote]White and Black were descriptions made up in America to push its segregation agenda,

The Brits and Dutch had a good hand in it too r216 with their colonization of half of the world. I am sure people had a good idea of what black and white meant in South Africa.

by Anonymousreply 222May 19, 2023 4:33 PM

This thread reminds of Italy's outrage over the NYTimes Carbonara recipe.

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by Anonymousreply 223May 19, 2023 4:37 PM

Clips and episodes of the BBC drama 'The Cleopatras' (1983) still exist online. Never repeated or released on DVD (for very good reasons).

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by Anonymousreply 224May 19, 2023 5:16 PM

^ They're as white as ambrosia salad...

by Anonymousreply 225May 19, 2023 5:30 PM

I wonder if Cleopatra truly believed she was Isis incarnate, or she was just screwing with everyone.

by Anonymousreply 226May 19, 2023 7:47 PM

Screwing with everyone is what got her in trouble.

by Anonymousreply 227May 19, 2023 8:46 PM

[quote]Interesting that no one cares about accuracy in height, weight, etc. They ONLY care about race

We don't know ancient historical figures height and weight can only be guessed at through statues which were usually idealised images.

by Anonymousreply 228May 19, 2023 9:16 PM

The ancient Egyptians had a system of "slavery" whereby any individual could sign up for a period of indenture to pay off debts.

The whole idea that slaves built the pyramids was made up thousands of years after they were built, because it was unthinkable to the ancient Greeks that you would ever compensate somebody for doing manual labour. The Greeks and Romans were massively into slavery, not just of black people. They wouldn't have understood that you should hire people to do that stuff.

by Anonymousreply 229May 19, 2023 9:19 PM

R225: Well that show depicts the Ptolemaic dynasty, who were all Macedonian Greeks, so it's 100% accurate to depict them as what you call white.

by Anonymousreply 230May 20, 2023 12:01 AM

An Egyptian guy describes the racism that occurs in the Arab world, speaking about how Blacks are generally ridiculed, and portrayed in blackface on TV and movies. He also speaks of the slave trade of Blacks to the Arab world, which lasted in some places until the 1970s. Being Black is not considered to be a desirable thing, and this helps in understanding why many Egyptians are offended that one of their historical icons is played by a Black woman.

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by Anonymousreply 231May 20, 2023 12:11 AM

Another aspect the Vogue “writer’s” stupidity:

1. Since he considers Egyptians to be “black” (even though they aren’t and never were), shouldn’t he be listening to their grievances? Isn’t he being “racist” by ignoring their concerns?

And if they’re POC, they “can’t be racist” according to “progressive” ideology (only whites I lower can!)

2. The dumbass has an Arabic name that he or his parents chose to “identify more with his African roots”. Yet all these blacks taking Araboc names don’t realize the Arabs COLONIZED Africa hence the spread Islam and Arabic.

Moron

by Anonymousreply 232May 20, 2023 1:15 AM

Arabs enslaved sub-Saharan black Africans long before it occurred to the Portuguese.

by Anonymousreply 233May 20, 2023 2:06 AM

Yes, r233, and chopped their dicks off so they could not reproduce. The Arab slave trade was the largest in recorded history. It positively dwarfs the Western slave trade in terms of numbers. Interesting that no activist ever wants to talk about it.

by Anonymousreply 234May 20, 2023 2:09 AM

R234, none of the countries they used the slaves in became major powers.

by Anonymousreply 235May 20, 2023 2:11 AM

[Quote] . The Arab slave trade was the largest in recorded history. It positively dwarfs the Western slave trade in terms of numbers. Interesting that no activist ever wants to talk about it.

Because the activists are in America and want to show America history with slaves because that’s what affects us all today….

by Anonymousreply 236May 20, 2023 2:12 AM

R236 tell that to the Brazilians. The vast majority of slaves taken from Africa wound up there.

by Anonymousreply 237May 20, 2023 2:16 AM

[Quote] tell that to the Brazilians. The vast majority of slaves taken from Africa wound up there.

An American activist will be concerned with the effects of slavery in America.

All your whataboutism isn’t going to change that

by Anonymousreply 238May 20, 2023 2:28 AM

Red headed Cleo, or no Cleo, period.

by Anonymousreply 239May 20, 2023 6:35 AM

This is a more accurate documentary.

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by Anonymousreply 240May 20, 2023 11:24 AM

If this bust is an accurate likeness, she was clearly of Greek (or at least Caucasian) descent.

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by Anonymousreply 241May 20, 2023 11:44 AM

There's zero reason to not believe that bust is highly accurate. I've never heard any good reason why the Pompeii images are not her and not accurate either. Everything points to them being her. And all these images are highly consistent.

by Anonymousreply 242May 20, 2023 11:53 AM

It would really feed Cleo's ego to know that she's still headline news two millennia after her death.

by Anonymousreply 243May 20, 2023 12:10 PM

[quote] It would really feed Cleo's ego to know that she's still headline news two millennia after her death.

I think she would be disgusted and demand everybody involved be put to a slow death

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by Anonymousreply 244May 20, 2023 12:15 PM

Probably, R244, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't also be pleased we were still talking about her.

Anyway, there are loads of ACTUAL black royals Netflix can make documentaries about without needing to rewrite history. Start with Mansa Musa, a fourteenth-century king of the Mali Empire, possibly the richest person who ever lived.

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by Anonymousreply 245May 20, 2023 12:42 PM

Cleopatra being black is one thing, but John Partridge having sex with a woman? That's a step too far.

by Anonymousreply 246May 20, 2023 3:55 PM

R201 Sorry but you are damm wrong. Americans have a very narrow minded about race were white are only aryans and slavic when the truth is mediterranean are considered white everywhere.

When an american magazine named Antonio Banderas the only poc nomnated that year people in europe laughed out loud. Yes, Banderas is brunette and his skin colour is not as pale as someone from north europe but nobody considers him people of colour in europe.

But of course you say the same about italians

by Anonymousreply 247May 20, 2023 8:09 PM

R231 Maybe, or maybe they are simply tired of american pushing their internal politics into everything because that's exactly what Jada was doing with this documentary.

by Anonymousreply 248May 20, 2023 8:13 PM

R247 that's because Americans are dumb and have never been anywhere. They think Spaniards = the Latinos who cross the border. Latin Americans are mainly mestizos, mostly native Americans and as such, have a lot more right to live in North America than we do.

by Anonymousreply 249May 20, 2023 8:54 PM

That's the reason it was so funny some people made such a fuss of Javier Bardem playing a cuban on being the Ricardos when white cubans are from spanish heritage. Nobody complains about british playing americans and this is exactly the same

Anyway the problems of the documentary are way beyond Cleopatra being despicted as a black woman

by Anonymousreply 250May 20, 2023 9:07 PM

[Quote] Sorry but you are damm wrong. Americans have a very narrow minded about race were white are only aryans and slavic when the truth is mediterranean are considered white everywhere.

White and Black are American concepts, the rest of the world never thought in those terms at all. It’s not that Mediterranean is considered white. There are so many shades that color isn’t a characteristic to divide people

by Anonymousreply 251May 20, 2023 9:16 PM

Reminds me of the old days in Hollywood when all the bad Romans were played by Brits and the good ones by Americans. See Spartacus.

by Anonymousreply 252May 20, 2023 9:18 PM

I don’t really have a problem with somebody doing a foreign drama with actors with local accents. British dramas portraying foreigners or space aliens who coincidentally have British accents are fine. That’s what the audience is comfortable with. More serious dramas will try harder to have more realistic accents sometimes.

But there’s is a difference between Hamilton doing colorblind casting, when we all know it’s a fantasy/musical and not a documentary, and someone doing a drama that deliberately lies to the audience and misrepresents to the audience, because some of the audience, especially younger or less educated people, will believe it’s the truth.

Especially conspiracy-laden Americans who are told, “the history books were all lying to you! Don’t believe any of them! Barely literate, folksy Grandma knows better than hundreds of years of archeologists and physical archeological evidence!” It’s the dumbing down of America.

by Anonymousreply 253May 20, 2023 9:47 PM

I think some of the race ID issues in America also have to do with every color in the rainbow wanting to be special and, therefore, defining themselves by color in ways that Europeans might not. For example, if there's a scholarship available for "persons of color" I have no doubt people in American with Spanish or Italian heritage would try for it. The only group that wouldn't try for it are white people with nothing that could even be construed in any way as "color" in their background.

It's like the black community blaming white people for segregating them when they've also spent the last fifty years purposefully segregating themselves from white people whenever they can and attacking any embracing of black or African culture by white people as cultural appropriation. Can't have it both ways. You don't get to only be a person of color when it suits you and then turning around and telling people to stop seeing you as a person of color at other times. Happy to have the black part mentioned when a black person wins an award but must ignore it if the black person committed a crime. Not how the world works.

by Anonymousreply 254May 20, 2023 10:46 PM

Macedonians are pretty damn white.

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by Anonymousreply 255May 21, 2023 12:41 AM

[quote] all the bad Romans were played by Brits and the good ones by Americans. See Spartacus.

Poor example.

American John Gavin played Bad Roman Julius Caesar mercilessly betraying his friend Good Roman Senator Graccus played by British Charles Laughton. There were other such examples.

Kirk believed in diversity, inclusion, and equity !

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by Anonymousreply 256May 21, 2023 2:35 AM

Cleopatra was actually a Macedonian Greek, so this is misappropriation of the Greek people's culture. I demand Jada pay reparations to me and my family.

by Anonymousreply 257May 21, 2023 2:41 AM

[quote] White and Black are American concepts, the rest of the world never thought in those terms at all.

Where do you imagine these ideas first came from? Who do you think was inventing this, originally? Who do you think the first "Americans" in the sense you mean were?

by Anonymousreply 258May 21, 2023 3:07 AM

[quote] Can't have it both ways. You don't get to only be a person of color when it suits you and then turning around and telling people to stop seeing you as a person of color at other times. Happy to have the black part mentioned when a black person wins an award but must ignore it if the black person committed a crime. Not how the world works.

People like r254 are the reason why I left America. After a point you realize there is just a certain form of stupidty that grows like mushrooms after a rain that will always be there and impossible to get rid of. I decided I couldn't grow old in a country where people are gleefully uniformed and dangerously stupid.

by Anonymousreply 259May 21, 2023 9:46 AM

R254 saying that black people "purposefully segregated" themselves is like saying Gay people have intentionally segregated themselves. You don't go where it's been clearly stated you are not wanted and you try to find places in the world where you can just live your life.

Gay people can't celebrate when a gay person wins an award or is the first to do something but then ignore the news when gay men molest children and turn out to be all around pedophiles or spreading gay AIDS intentionally. It doesn't work that way. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Gay people can't expect everyone to just treat them the same AND then turn around and ask for special protections under the law that benefit only them like adoption or marriage. You can't spend fifty years denying traditional family values and then all of a sudden demand you want laws to ensure that you can have one. The world doesn't work that way.

That's what R254 's bullshit sounds like.

by Anonymousreply 260May 21, 2023 10:17 AM

"My grandmother said Cleopatra was black" is not scholarship.

Feelings are not scholarship.

Racist abuse and trolling by idiots does not validate false assertions about Cleopatra's ancestry.

by Anonymousreply 261May 21, 2023 12:20 PM

R259, no one misses you.

by Anonymousreply 262May 21, 2023 1:00 PM

R262, typical American response. Fortunately for both of us, being missed was not what I was going for. I was just looking to save my sanity and find some happiness. America is in a dark place right now. Everyone there knows it and feels it. When I go back it's like a dark cloud. There is an overall weariness, fatigue and cynicism that comes from not knowing what information or which sources to trust anymore. A fatigue that comes from thinking everyone has ulterior motives and is only out for themselves. There is an overwhelming pressure that comes with facing questions daily that have no foreseeable answers - racism, gun violence, violence in general. There is a palpable fear underneath all of the images of fabulous lifestyles online that no one is really living. It all seems like a big lie. We know it's a lie. And what is life if you're living in fear - the realistic fear that you could easily be shot dead anywhere?

And the fact that a stupid question over the color of an actresses skin can cause such vitriol really reveals how much national anxiety is bubbling up right underneath the surface, ready to boil over. People in America are not happy anymore. It's very clear to everyone else in the world.

by Anonymousreply 263May 21, 2023 1:17 PM

Cleopatra was Greek not african. Soooo why is a black person playing her? In that case, let’s do a MLK biopic with Jackie Chan.

by Anonymousreply 264May 21, 2023 1:24 PM

I'm curious where you moved to, r263, and were you moving back to a place you'd lived before, or did you spontaneously decide to try living in a different country? Threads pop up from people who have decided to try a different country, and generally they seem happy with the choice they made. It's interesting.

by Anonymousreply 265May 21, 2023 3:33 PM

R263, we are happy you are decided to be a coward and escape. We don't need people without backbone to fight the fight. Wallow in your smugness.

by Anonymousreply 266May 21, 2023 3:40 PM

[quote]Can't have it both ways. You don't get to only be a person of color when it suits you and then turning around and telling people to stop seeing you as a person of color at other times. Happy to have the black part mentioned when a black person wins an award but must ignore it if the black person committed a crime. Not how the world works.

True.

by Anonymousreply 267May 21, 2023 3:58 PM

R263 every other empire falls: Romans, British, etc. Now it's the turn of Americans. We're finished.

by Anonymousreply 268May 21, 2023 6:38 PM

Americans are not finished because there's nobody to replace them. China is a giant with feet of clay.

And of course, culturally Americans colonized the rest of the world.

The problem is the blindness at reflect other cultures. And you don't need to go to Africa, the beginning of Mission Impossible 2 is set in Spain, a western country (that is visited for a lot of americans every year) and even with that the start of the film is incredibly innacurate, totally lazy writing and showing a total lack of knowledge of spanish culture (that will be solved using wikipedia for five minutes).

Here the problem is Jada has an agenda and the historical truth doesn't matter for her if doesn't fit that agenda

by Anonymousreply 269May 21, 2023 6:44 PM

[quote]Can't have it both ways. You don't get to only be a person of color when it suits you and then turning around and telling people to stop seeing you as a person of color at other times. Happy to have the black part mentioned when a black person wins an award but must ignore it if the black person committed a crime. Not how the world works.

R259, instead of attacks, why don't you counter with, you know, actual thoughts or arguments concerning what is stated here? (I know you won't.)

And, black people do self-segregate all the time. Gay people also self-segregate all the time. Everyone likes being around people like them. I'm not talking about 1950's segregation laws. I'm talking about black only awards shows, black only media channels, black kids sitting all together in the lunch room, black only bars, black only clubs, etc. These are chosen segregation and every group does it. However, the only group that does it and then pretends it is all do to oppression by the other groups is black people.

by Anonymousreply 270May 21, 2023 7:44 PM

Speaking of self-segregate, the Daily Mail (mea culpa but they do have the best coverage of celeb pap shots of Dad Bods on the beach and true crime) always publish a lot of pics of the Obama girls in LA. Whereas before they seemed to actually have some white friends, now they're only with black pals. As Malia had a white Brit boyfriend for years, seems a little strange they don't seem to know any white people anymore.

by Anonymousreply 271May 21, 2023 8:48 PM

R263: Part of the big American problem you mention is highlighted in your own answer. The only time you refer to the Cleo matter, it's in reference to foaming-at-the-mouth racists reacting angrily to the casting. The issue first is that history has been blatantly falsified for ideological reasons. Secondary is the expectation on one side that no one is allowed to question this, and if they do they are motivated by ignorance or racial hatred, that they are a part of a broader problem that includes white supremacy. That in itself is a serious problem, because the truth matters on a very fundamental level. And obsessively highlighting the sub section of people who are actively racist in their response to this show, and then refusing to grapple with the actual problem with this show's falsification of history, shows how serious the problems in America are.

by Anonymousreply 272May 22, 2023 1:47 AM

Some people are so preoccupied with race.

So what if Cleopatra was portrayed by a biracial actor.

There are bigger things in the world to be angry about. But, people seem to love going after low-hanging fruit.

by Anonymousreply 273May 22, 2023 1:57 AM

R273 Pay attention. The film is being passed off as a documentary. A history of Cleopatra's life. That is the problem.

[quote]There are bigger things in the world to be angry about.

Oh really? Gee...who knew?

by Anonymousreply 274May 22, 2023 2:01 AM

[quote]Oh really? Gee...who knew?

You didn't and don't see this kind of anger and vitriol over things like, say, "Citizens United" (then or now, because it still stands and ruins/influences our society). You know, things that have bigger impacts on our lives and where we're headed. People just resign themselves to things like this and accept them, because people are generally stupid, impressionable, reactive, and forgetful when it comes to things in the news.

Nothing stirs white people up like race (even when it's about inequities).

But, I guess you're the expert. Keep at the low-hanging fruit, I guess. Mazel.

by Anonymousreply 275May 22, 2023 2:07 AM

Rotten Tomatoes score audience: 3% (per 10,000 ratings)

LOL.

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by Anonymousreply 276May 22, 2023 2:19 AM

Stupid move. And here's the thing, there could have been an interesting discussion of how ancient Egypt was divorced from any connection to Africa by Victorian archeologists, how people decided that an advanced civilization couldn't possibly have anything to do with "those people." That could have been an interesting discussion. But dingbats gotta dingbat so they went with the stupid and tired "claiming" of Cleopatra. Morons.

by Anonymousreply 277May 22, 2023 2:22 AM

R275, I think your example is bullshit. Do you really believe people can't have a problem with both the falsification of history as represented by this documentary and Citizens United? Do you think people aren't working to overturn Citizens United? Is there a lot the average person can do about Citizens United beyond voting for Democrats? We can do something about falsifying history for a political agenda by calling it out when we see it and not giving it ratings. The reality is that corporations are not people and PACs should be illegal AND Cleopatra was not in any way black. Those are both true. Sane people know this.

by Anonymousreply 278May 22, 2023 2:23 AM

Most Americans, of all races, have a very false view of who Cleopatra was and what she looked like, and that's all down to 20th Century cultural depictions of her in films, TV and on Las Vegas slot machines. It's not only some Black people who have the totally wrong idea, based on their own brand of American cultural revisionism. Cleo wasn't some half naked supermodel dressed in gold finery like something from King Tut's tomb. She was a Greek woman, who outside of religious ceremonial roles, dressed simply in Greek style, with hair in a modest bun, and wearing a diadem on her head. She did like pearls. As also noted here, ALL contemporary and near contemporary images of her from ancient Rome show her with red hair. Not black hair, not an Egyptian wig. While attractive, she was not a raving beauty, and had a large nose typical of her heavily inbred family.

by Anonymousreply 279May 22, 2023 2:39 AM

So other than looks, what would you like people to know about Cleopatra r279? This is the problem, we get diverted to idiotic debates about trivial bullshit. PBS had an equally wrong-headed show about Marie Antoinette recently (admittedly it wasn't a documentary, but it was meant to convey some truth about her), but they got the all-important skin tone correct so now it goes down in the annals of "accuracy." This is all an incredibly shallow way to approach history and every historical figure. Just get them to look approximately like they did and you've done your job. You haven't done shit.

by Anonymousreply 280May 22, 2023 2:44 AM

R280: I just let you know a whole bunch of things about her other than her race, which you ignored.

by Anonymousreply 281May 22, 2023 2:52 AM

yes, you mentioned her clothes and her heritage and her choice in adornments. Yes, you did do that r281. Thanks for sharing.

by Anonymousreply 282May 22, 2023 2:54 AM

R271 Obama’s daughter’s not being photographed with white people means they don’t know any?

by Anonymousreply 283May 22, 2023 2:54 AM

This is an AI depiction of what Cleopatra could've looked like, based on a contemporary bust.

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by Anonymousreply 284May 22, 2023 3:10 AM

The AI got the hair color wrong.

by Anonymousreply 285May 22, 2023 8:51 AM

R282: And thanks for aggressively policing entirely factual discussion of a widely misrepresented and misunderstood historical figure, like your input is either insightful or needed.

by Anonymousreply 286May 22, 2023 9:11 AM

About the “red” hair, could it be henna?

Henna doesn’t dye your hair Lucille Ball red, but I’ve used it on brown hair and it does give it a reddish tinge, especially if you spend a lot of time in the bright sun, even for a few days.

The link below talks about how to enhance the reddish color of henna by adding coffee or lemon.

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by Anonymousreply 287May 22, 2023 3:37 PM

I hate random racial blind casting. Sometimes it's thematically appropriate as in Hamilton and other times it's just obtrusive and ridiculous. In this case it's even more irritating because the show purports to be a historical documentary and it starts out from a completely false premise, and all because Jada Pinkett felt that Black people haven't had enough queens to be proud of. WTF?

Since Trump, we've entered into an era where truth doesn't exist or matter anymore. Alternative facts and such. And as we plunge into a world of AI distorted reality which will take us even further into falsehood, we'll never get solid footing on the truth again. The new reality is that nothing is real or trustworthy anymore.

by Anonymousreply 288May 22, 2023 6:46 PM

[quote] The new reality is that nothing is real or trustworthy anymore

Be careful, 288. That is exactly what our enemies want us to believe. Obviously fact checking news sources are different than a director mislabeling a program a documentary because she hopes something is true.

by Anonymousreply 289May 22, 2023 8:37 PM

[quote]we are happy you are decided to be a coward and escape. We don't need people without backbone to fight the fight. Wallow in your smugness.

That is the problem R266. Life doesn't have to be a constant fight. Yes there are things one should stand for. But waging a stupid war over the color of Cleopatra is just another example of everything in America becoming so divisive, a battleground for greater unresolved issues. Everything is a struggle, ever topic takes a political bent.

What I feel we are witnessing, if you were to pull back and look at this moment in history - is the exact moment when white people really began realizing their numbers are dwindling. We've been saying it for years, but it's really happening now. In another 25 years they will be a minority. White people under 18 years old now already are. Thirty years ago, no one would have paid attention to this docu and let black people have their little fairytale over Cleopatra. But now it's threatening. The truth MUST be spoken! Even a fucking made up mermaid fish HAS to be white.

[quote]While under 18 non-Hispanic White Americans in the US. are already a minority as of 2020, it is projected that non-Hispanic Whites overall will become a minority within the US by 2045.

by Anonymousreply 290May 22, 2023 9:09 PM

R290 but it isn't black people who are inching out 'white' people. It's Asians and Latinos and most Latinos consider themselves white. The black population of the US in 1950 was 10%. 70 years later, it's 13%. Hollywood acting like black people are the only minority is basically ridiculous.

by Anonymousreply 291May 22, 2023 9:14 PM

Moreover, what was never mentioned in the 2020 census, is that black people stayed at 13% from the previous census. They are NOT growing, yet they are 50% of the people in tv commercials now.

So shut the fuck up, Jada Bigot Smith.

by Anonymousreply 292May 22, 2023 9:20 PM

R291 I never said black people were the ones. I just pointed to the fact that white people's numbers in America are dwindling. There was a time in America where if you weren't lilly white, you weren't white. You know times are getting desperate for white Americans when they start laying claims to their darkest of brethren. My husband's grandfather used to say Italians weren't nothing but N-words turned inside out. Now white people are parsing Greeks. Next they'll be delineating Arabs. I guess if no one is a majority, in their minds, no one is a minority.

by Anonymousreply 293May 22, 2023 9:21 PM

R293 you sure come from a racist family. Never been to Europe I take it? Mediterraneans are white people with olive skin. North Africans are Arabs with olive skin. Sub-Saharan Africans are black. As are people from Papua New Guinea, Aboriginals in Australia, some Sri Lankans. However dark their skin though, they still have no genetic relation to Sub-Saharan Africans.

by Anonymousreply 294May 22, 2023 9:25 PM

R292, as if black people are doing all the casting and running the advertising industry. That is 100% white guilt you can blame for that, nothing else. If White Americans hadn't shit on every other race that literally darkened their door for the past 200 years, you wouldn't be subjected to them incessantly on your screen in the form of a half-baked apology. Chickens do come home to roost. We all know this. What goes up must come down. We all know this too. Then why are we so surprised when he get bopped in the head by something that was put into action years ago?

by Anonymousreply 295May 22, 2023 9:25 PM

^^^ Except in THIS CASE---you know the one we're talking about----Negress Jada is the one who did the casting. So STFU.

by Anonymousreply 296May 22, 2023 9:27 PM

R294, silly boy I live in Europe. My family isn't racist, but it was definitely dragged through the mud by them. And I know how those people thought about White America, 100, 50, even 30 years ago. White Americans were not claiming Italians, let alone Greeks as their own. I am not saying they aren't white, but white American definitely turned their backs on them when it suited them. When they didn't need or want their numbers.

by Anonymousreply 297May 22, 2023 9:27 PM

r296...

[quote]black people stayed at 13% from the previous census. They are NOT growing, yet they are 50% of the people in tv commercials now.

That is the comment about casting I was referring to. And I am going to keep bating you until you type the word your fingers and dancing around on your keyboard that you so desperately want to use. Negress? Really?

by Anonymousreply 298May 22, 2023 9:29 PM

I don't think you understand the word "baiting".

And of course you're too stupid to rebut the stats I mentioned.

Typical "word you think I desperately want to use"

by Anonymousreply 299May 22, 2023 9:36 PM

What stats did you grace me with? The 13%? I did address it. But you might have been too busy foaming at the mouth.

by Anonymousreply 300May 22, 2023 9:41 PM

How did you "address it?" Oh by saying "blacks aren't the ones doing it?"

But JADA is black and she's the one doing it IN THIS CASE.

Moron.

by Anonymousreply 301May 22, 2023 9:42 PM

I think you are lost in your argument or never had proper footing to begin with. What are you addressing? My point was are witnessing a moment in history when white people are actually beginning to realize they are a minority. And the vitriol over Jada Pinket Smith and her pageant play is proof of this. thirty years ago it would have just floated by like an "oh isn't that cute" kind of moment. Not it has become a touchstone.

Black people AREN'T taking over. And I never said they were. The funny thing is if white Americans were smart they would recognize the symbiotic relationship they have with black Americans, and have had for centuries in this country, and they wouldn't be calling them Negresses on message boards. They would realize that reaching some resolution with America's slave past would benefit them just as much if not more than black people going forward. I guess it doesn't cross their minds that black people, at 13%, might be just as unsettled by the shifting demographics of a nation their ancestors built on their backs. I guess because it's just always been white person's jurisdiction to say who gets what since the country has always been theirs that they've so graciously shared.

by Anonymousreply 302May 22, 2023 9:52 PM

[quote]What are you addressing? My point was are witnessing a moment in history when white people are actually beginning to realize they are a minority.

Actually, white people are NOT a minority in the USA. They are still a majority and if you include white Latinos even a bigger one. Or do you know understand simple present vs. future tense in written English??

[quote] And the vitriol over Jada Pinket Smith and her pageant play is proof of this. thirty years ago it would have just

No, the vitriol is over a woman who has a history of stirring up hate and drama (Exhibit A: her husband/Chris Rock), purporting to make a DOCUMENTARY and cast a black woman to play a major historical figure who was Greek simply because "she wants her daughter to see q black queen".

by Anonymousreply 303May 22, 2023 9:57 PM

[quote]and if you include white Latinos even a bigger one.

I fucking love it. The struggle is real... ha!

Anyway. Everything you said R303 is absolutely correct. I'll rest my case, bested by your convincing argument and rope-a-dope logic.

by Anonymousreply 304May 22, 2023 10:05 PM

^^^ Typical. When confronted with actual facts, no rebuttal. Just walk away sulking.

Newsflash: many Latinos are and consider themselves White. Maybe you should travel to Mexico or Cuba sometime

by Anonymousreply 305May 22, 2023 10:11 PM

[quote]I guess it doesn't cross their minds that black people, at 13%, might be just as unsettled by the shifting demographics of a nation their ancestors built on their backs.

"Blacks built this country". More rewriting of history.

[quote]Actually, white people are NOT a minority in the USA. They are still a majority and if you include white Latinos even a bigger one. Or do you know understand simple present vs. future tense in written English??

In fact according to the last census, black (non-Hispanic) Americans are only 12.6% of the population. The black population of the US is small.

It is the Latino population that has grown the most, but more and more they identify as white. The Asian population has grown and they are in sync with whites.

by Anonymousreply 306May 22, 2023 10:28 PM

[quote] In fact according to the last census, black (non-Hispanic) Americans are only 12.6% of the population. The black population of the US is small.

This is the little fact no one ever wants to mention.

by Anonymousreply 307May 22, 2023 10:29 PM

[quote] 50, even 30 years ago. White Americans were not claiming Italians, let alone Greeks as their own. I am not saying they aren't white, but white American definitely turned their backs on them when it suited them. When they didn't need or want their numbers.

More know-nothing bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 308May 22, 2023 10:31 PM

[quote] My husband's grandfather used to say Italians weren't nothing but N-words turned inside out. Now white people are parsing Greeks. Next they'll be delineating Arabs. I guess if no one is a majority, in their minds, no one is a minority.

Your husband's grandfather was an asshole. But still, it is interesting this whole thing, because deep down I think we all get how arbitrary it all is. We invented these firm categories between the 16th and 19th centuries (when it became the bullshit of "race science) and now we are stuck playing these stupid games because none of it is actually real. It's actually comical that we care much more about Cleopatra's skin color than she ever did.

by Anonymousreply 309May 22, 2023 10:33 PM

R297 it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with poverty. Americans 100 years ago were racist against the Irish. And you don't get whiter than them. Then they were racist against Poles. Also very white.

by Anonymousreply 310May 22, 2023 10:37 PM

The black woman looks more Mochachino.

by Anonymousreply 311May 22, 2023 10:40 PM

You are conflating bigot with racist r310. Every nationality except for the British and their descendants has been discriminated against at one time or another once they arrived in America.

by Anonymousreply 312May 22, 2023 10:43 PM

R310 You are wrong.

It was bigotry. Not racism.

Dear Lord....the idiocy you read in these threads.

by Anonymousreply 313May 22, 2023 10:44 PM

I got my second wind...

[quote]When confronted with actual facts

You use the word FACTS in the very modern sense of the word.

[quote]More know-nothing bullshit.

I really think you should read about what White Americans thought about Desi Arnaz kissing Lucille Ball.

[quote]This is the little fact no one ever wants to mention.

Everyone knows it. I even mentioned it myself. It's just that white people are so obsessed with us - making right / doing wrong - or numbers seem legion. We are their tried and true mythical sage / boogeyman.

[quote] it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with poverty.

Yes r297, but once the Irish achieved a level of wealth they could easily integrate like the Kennedys and become American as apple pie. Italians not so much.

by Anonymousreply 314May 22, 2023 10:45 PM

But it's not just American white people who are pissed about the casting though - unless you believe Egypt and Greece are lily-white vassals of the USA.

by Anonymousreply 315May 22, 2023 10:53 PM

[quote]I really think you should read about what White Americans thought about Desi Arnaz kissing Lucille Ball.

I really think you should read about how White Americans totally embraced the show, made it number 1 in the ratings, and kept it at the top of the ratings for years until the stars decided to call it quits.

by Anonymousreply 316May 22, 2023 10:56 PM

[quote]Yes [R297], but once the Irish achieved a level of wealth they could easily integrate like the Kennedys and become American as apple pie. Italians not so much.

What an idiot.

Perry Como was their highest paid TV star through the 1950s. Sinatra, Dean Martin, Connie Francis, Bobby Darin, Frankie Avalon, Fabian and a slew of others.

Fiorello La Guardia was mayor from 1934 to 1946. Problem the most iconic and beloved mayor of all time. An iconic personality. Joe DiMaggio. Yogi Berra.

I could go on.

by Anonymousreply 317May 22, 2023 11:01 PM

In summation, since it's almost midnight here and I have to get to bed:

I just find it interesting that the color palette for what passes as white in America has greatly increased now that the number for what was considered "true white" are dwindling. There was a time in the United States of America if you even had a great-grandparent who was black you were considered black. It was called the One-Drop Rule and it was a LEGAL term. It's where the term Octoroon comes from. Look it up.

Now the "white latinos are white too" desperation to claim anyone who isn't black as white is highlighted by the intensity of this thread. It's all silly but oddly fascinating. Just be happy Cleopatra definitely wasn't Latino.

by Anonymousreply 318May 22, 2023 11:02 PM

^Sorry for the typos. Rushing.

by Anonymousreply 319May 22, 2023 11:02 PM

[quote]Now the "white latinos are white too" desperation

Doll, it's a fact.

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by Anonymousreply 320May 22, 2023 11:04 PM

Years ago, I assumed this would happen r318. Especially with Latinos, who are often actually pretty damn white as has been posted a number of times on this thread. The whole thing is a stupid game and of course to preserve some "white majority" people are going to do what they've always done: fuck around with the categories, which aren't based on anything but bullshit to begin with.

by Anonymousreply 321May 22, 2023 11:04 PM

Man, you are fucking dense. See post R320.

by Anonymousreply 322May 22, 2023 11:07 PM

R320 I am not debating the facts of the matter. I am debating the perception of the matter. The fact that we are all human doesn't stop us from delineating each other by color. Even though White Latinos may be white, they were not received AS white people in the White United States of America because they were not White-White. That is the point.

by Anonymousreply 323May 22, 2023 11:08 PM

Try casting Garibaldi as black and watch Italy go crazy....

by Anonymousreply 324May 22, 2023 11:09 PM

GO back and research what White Americans thought of all those White Latinos pouring over the border during the Cuban Missile Crisis era.

by Anonymousreply 325May 22, 2023 11:10 PM

Or better yet Leonardo.

by Anonymousreply 326May 22, 2023 11:10 PM

They weren't pouring over the border during the Cuban Missile Crisis. There was a big wave when Castro first took over, and they were welcomed as glorious Christian allies (yes, including all the mobbed up grifters who supported Batista, maybe them most of all) in the fight against international communism. We even created a special little category of refugee to let everybody know that we welcomed these guys and nobody else.

There was a bit of trauma with the somewhat darker refugees of the Mariel Boatlift under Carter, but in general the same special rules prevailed.

by Anonymousreply 327May 22, 2023 11:18 PM

This is what White American's thought of your White Latinos not too too long ago. Chiquita Banana! Why do you think Carol Channing hid the fact that she was actually half black until her death bed? Because White Americans did not accept anyone as white who was 100% white. But perceptions have conveniently shifted. Now half the world is White.

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by Anonymousreply 328May 22, 2023 11:22 PM

[quote] The fact that we are all human doesn't stop us from delineating each other by color.

There has always been some of that, but the truth is the absolute obsession with skin color very much in evidence on this thread dates back to the Atlantic Slave Trade and later European imperialism and the "white man's burden" to rule the world. About 400 years or so. Before that, people of course had all sorts of bigotries and prejudices about each other, but the idea that these big skin color categories exist and have all sorts of meanings is relatively new.

by Anonymousreply 329May 22, 2023 11:23 PM

R327, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is received with open arms. Black men were legally given the right to vote in 1870 and we see how that worked out...

by Anonymousreply 330May 22, 2023 11:24 PM

[quote]There has always been some of that, but the truth is the absolute obsession with skin color very much in evidence on this thread dates back to the Atlantic Slave Trade and later European imperialism and the "white man's burden" to rule the world. About 400 years or so. Before that, people of course had all sorts of bigotries and prejudices about each other, but the idea that these big skin color categories exist and have all sorts of meanings is relatively new.

I 100% agree with you R329. I am pointing out how that perception has shifted from a hardline exclusionary reasoning to an all encompassing inclusionary one. White people wanted to exclude anyone who wasn't 100% pure, and now it seems they are accepting any and all candidates who aren't straight up black.

by Anonymousreply 331May 22, 2023 11:26 PM

^ or at least still obsessing over making sure black people know exactly who they are and aren't, were and never were. They seem to have such an hardon for it. And we aren't even the ones "minoritizing" you.

by Anonymousreply 332May 22, 2023 11:35 PM

If a portion of 13% of the population wants to parade around and have themselves a black Cleopatra what skin off your dick is it? How does it change the way you live? Save your energy for when they cast a Mexican as George Washington.

by Anonymousreply 333May 22, 2023 11:43 PM

[quote]Newsflash: many Latinos are and consider themselves White. Maybe you should travel to Mexico or Cuba sometime

OMG you don't know racism until it comes to Latinos. They make white people look like amateurs. White Latinos are the fucking WORST.

by Anonymousreply 334May 23, 2023 12:00 AM

R333 that's not the issue. You can make any fictional account you want. This series is claiming to be a documentary with some supposed academic expert who knows Cleo was black cause her Granny told her so. That's the problem.

by Anonymousreply 335May 23, 2023 12:03 AM

[quote]This is what White American's thought of your White Latinos not too too long ago. Chiquita Banana! Why do you think Carol Channing hid the fact that she was actually half black until her death bed? Because White Americans did not accept anyone as white who was 100% white. But perceptions have conveniently shifted. Now half the world is White.

Let's see ....Cesar Romero, Ricardo Montalbán, Rudolph Valentino, Fernando Lamas, Perry Como, Frank Sinatra, Don Ameche etc. and etc. all huge stars.

by Anonymousreply 336May 23, 2023 12:06 AM

[quote]I really think you should read about what White Americans thought about Desi Arnaz kissing Lucille Ball.

I Love Lucy was the most popular show on tv, remains the biggest sitcom of all time, and a cultural touchstone. That show was embraced by Americans like no other.

[quote]Yes [[R297]], but once the Irish achieved a level of wealth they could easily integrate like the Kennedys and become American as apple pie. Italians not so much.

More bullshit. Italian Americans were part of American culture right from the beginning. The above poster listed just a few Italian American celebrities who were embraced by the American public, there were many more. Frank Sinatra was the most popular male singer for decades, Frankie Avalon and Annette Funicello were America's Sweetheart Couple in the 50s/60s for fuck's sake.

God, you're an idiot with no sense of American history or culture.

by Anonymousreply 337May 23, 2023 12:07 AM

Dolores del Río, Ramon Navarro.

by Anonymousreply 338May 23, 2023 12:09 AM

Lupe Velez, Jose Ferrer

by Anonymousreply 339May 23, 2023 12:11 AM

Before Elvis...before the Beatles...

Frank Sinatra Causes Riot in NYC Paramount Theater

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by Anonymousreply 340May 23, 2023 12:15 AM

The funeral of Valentino:

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by Anonymousreply 341May 23, 2023 12:17 AM

"Latino" is a tenuous cultural construct, that, like "Arab" encompasses many so called "races" and peoples, who share a language, and historically (but not always) a religion, and many aspects of culture. Both "Latino" and "Arab" are eventually going to collapse now that empire doesn't hold them together and religion is eroding, while ethno-nationalism and the obsession with "race" rage on.

by Anonymousreply 342May 23, 2023 12:23 AM

[quote]Both "Latino" and "Arab" are eventually going to collapse now that empire doesn't hold them together

No they won't. Not in any foreseeable future. It's called heritage. And people cling to it.

by Anonymousreply 343May 23, 2023 12:32 AM

R287: None of the depictions of Cleopatra with red hair (ie, all of the surviving paintings of her from the time or near after) scream henna to me. The complexion is always typical of that of a red head and the hair color looks naturally red. There is one image depicting her suicide, which shows her surrounded by other people, who all have differing skin tones, mostly brown/olive with dark hair. Her son is shown with a bronze skin tone. But she's very pale white, with red hair.

by Anonymousreply 344May 23, 2023 12:35 AM

[quote]More bullshit. Italian Americans were part of American culture right from the beginning. The above poster listed just a few Italian American celebrities who were embraced by the American public, there were many more. Frank Sinatra was the most popular male singer for decades, Frankie Avalon and Annette Funicello were America's Sweetheart Couple in the 50s/60s for fuck's sake. God, you're an idiot with no sense of American history or culture.

R337, Dude the country embraced Diana Ross and Harry Belafonte too. It didn't mean they wanted to be living next to them. You are the one brutally unaware of your own country's past and practicing Revisionist American History. Stop passing the buck of your own ignorance.

[quote]Italians who had come to the country as “free white persons” were often marked as black because they accepted “black” jobs in the Louisiana sugar fields or because they chose to live among African-Americans. This left them vulnerable to marauding mobs like the ones that hanged, shot, dismembered or burned alive thousands of black men, women and children across the South.

[quote]Few who march in Columbus Day parades or recount the tale of Columbus’s voyage from Europe to the New World are aware of how the holiday came about or that President Benjamin Harrison proclaimed it as a one-time national celebration in 1892 — in the wake of a bloody New Orleans lynching that took the lives of 11 Italian immigrants.

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by Anonymousreply 345May 23, 2023 12:42 AM

r345 those incidents did happen, but in the Deep South. In other areas of the country Italians were pretty integrated. I'm from the Northeast.

by Anonymousreply 346May 23, 2023 12:45 AM

Read the article R345. It points directly at the NYTimes itself for spreading a lot of the hatred around Italians.

by Anonymousreply 347May 23, 2023 12:47 AM

r347 are you even American? You seem to have little grasp of American history or culture. The NY Times reported on incidents of anti-Italian bigotry, but from the most part Italians fully assimilated into American life pretty quickly. Of course in the Deep South there was prejudice but they hated everybody. There was bigotry for every immigrant group at that time.

by Anonymousreply 348May 23, 2023 12:52 AM

R345 The black "scholar" of that article is pretty dumb...this is laughable: "Darker skinned southern Italians endured the penalties of blackness..."

Penalties of blackness? Uh...were Italians subjected to Jim Crow laws? Were they prevented the vote? Were they prevented from marrying Anglos?

by Anonymousreply 349May 23, 2023 12:53 AM

no R349 they were just lynched like black people and considered black people. I think that is the penalty they were referring to.. a pretty major one.

by Anonymousreply 350May 23, 2023 12:54 AM

r349 it's a complete horseshit article. the NY Times will print anything it seems. As I said before, that poster doesn't seem to be American and he's all over this thread. A native born American would know that Italians assimilated pretty quickly and had successful businesses etc. Italian American entertainers were very popular. Of course in the Deep South there were problems but when haven't there been? The Irish were lynched too FFS.

This is all common knowledge to actual Americans.

by Anonymousreply 351May 23, 2023 12:56 AM

[quote]they were just lynched like black people and considered black people. I think that is the penalty they were referring to.. a pretty major one.

Everybody was fucking lynched in Louisiana back then.

by Anonymousreply 352May 23, 2023 12:57 AM

[quote]no [R349] they were just lynched like black people and considered black people.

Oh please. The incident in Louisiana was isolated. It is not indicative of the Italian American experience.

BTW my ancestors arrived in the US from Italy in the early 1800s. Might know more than you about my history. And on a side note: I lived decades in Italy)

by Anonymousreply 353May 23, 2023 1:00 AM

R348 my sense of American History is obviously greater than yours. You point to Frank Sinatra and I point to actual facts about the history or relationships between Italians and White Americans. But I guess in your opinion if it happened more than 150 years ago it doesn't count. American history starts when you say it does. Even still, trust me, the anti-italian bigotry went well into the 50s and 60s when it came to moving into white neighbourhoods.

And R351 you say the "Deep South" as if it isn't a third of the nation - like it's just little section of ruffians. They don't count either. And yes I am American. Born in Ohio. I grew up around Jews and Italians. Most of my friends were either Jewish or Italian. If we all knew then that a black man would become president before a Jewish or Italian man, we'd all be shocked. I know how they were treated. Frank Sinatra didn't help them find homes in all "white" neighbourhoods.

Just read the article and you'll see just how smoothly the assimilation of Italians went in this country.

by Anonymousreply 354May 23, 2023 1:00 AM

[quote]my sense of American History is obviously greater than yours. You point to Frank Sinatra and I point to actual facts about the history or relationships between Italians and White Americans. But I guess in your opinion if it happened more than 150 years ago it doesn't count. American history starts when you say it does. Even still, trust me, the anti-italian bigotry went well into the 50s and 60s when it came to moving into white neighbourhoods.

FFS you know nothing and you're probably not even American. In the 50s and 60s there were Italian Americans all up and down the East Coast and West Coast and nobody gave a shit if they lived next door to them. There were no riots, there were no God, you're a fucking idiot. Take it from those of us who are actually Americans and know what we're talking about.

by Anonymousreply 355May 23, 2023 1:04 AM

[quote]the anti-italian bigotry went well into the 50s and 60s when it came to moving into white neighbourhoods.

You have no understanding of Italian American history.

by Anonymousreply 356May 23, 2023 1:05 AM

[quote]you say the "Deep South" as if it isn't a third of the nation - like it's just little section of ruffians.

As the above poster said, these were isolated incidents, everybody was lynched in the Deep South and it was not indicative of a national trend.

Again, you're an idiot.

by Anonymousreply 357May 23, 2023 1:05 AM

BTW R354 are you by any chance African American?

by Anonymousreply 358May 23, 2023 1:06 AM

[quote]Just read the article and you'll see just how smoothly the assimilation of Italians went in this country.

One article in the NY Times written by a biased writer with an agenda is not an accurate recounting of American history.

by Anonymousreply 359May 23, 2023 1:06 AM

[quote] If we all knew then that a black man would become president before a Jewish or Italian man, we'd all be shocked.

50+ years ago, a black man becoming president before a Martian would've shocked people.

by Anonymousreply 360May 23, 2023 1:09 AM

[quote]I know how they were treated. Frank Sinatra didn't help them find homes in all "white" neighbourhoods.

Oh the red-lining, the Jim Crow laws, the segregation, not being allowed to sit at the lunch counter....yeah we Italian Americans had it tough!

by Anonymousreply 361May 23, 2023 1:10 AM

^ and he says I am all over this thread... I am, but goddamn...

by Anonymousreply 362May 23, 2023 1:12 AM

I liked it!

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by Anonymousreply 363May 23, 2023 1:14 AM

White Latino here and proud to be both. And fuck you if you think I should renounce either category.

by Anonymousreply 364May 23, 2023 1:44 AM

There already was a black Cleopatra movie.

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by Anonymousreply 365May 23, 2023 2:06 AM

[quote]my sense of American History is obviously greater than yours.

Here's the problem. You can't have a "sense" of history. History is about grasping facts. You can't sense truth or reality either, but I bet you do.

by Anonymousreply 366May 23, 2023 2:43 AM

[quote]This is what White American's thought of your White Latinos not too too long ago. Chiquita Banana! Why do you think Carol Channing hid the fact that she was actually half black until her death bed? Because White Americans did not accept anyone as white who was 100% white. But perceptions have conveniently shifted. Now half the world is White.

[quote]Let's see ....Cesar Romero, Ricardo Montalbán, Rudolph Valentino, Fernando Lamas, Perry Como, Frank Sinatra, Don Ameche etc. and etc. all huge stars.

R336 Valentino, Como, Sinatra and Ameche? They weren't Latino.

by Anonymousreply 367May 23, 2023 2:50 AM

People seem to have forgotten there was a huge anti-Catholic, anti-Papist prejudice among many white protestant Americans. Italians, Hispanics and Irish were primarily Catholic.

by Anonymousreply 368May 23, 2023 2:54 AM

I thought this thread is about EGYPTIANS fuming over a black Cleopatra. Silly me.

by Anonymousreply 369May 23, 2023 2:58 AM

R367 If you read further up the poster was also speaking about Italian Americans as well as Latinos.

by Anonymousreply 370May 23, 2023 2:59 AM

I guess Egyptians -- who are mostly Muslims--- have fallen further down the oppression pyramid, since no one cares about their legitimate claims of cultural appropriation.

Who woulda thunk it?

by Anonymousreply 371May 23, 2023 3:07 AM

What if they had an Asian actress play her? What would Jada have said? I think someone should make that and watch her head explode. Win/win.

by Anonymousreply 372May 23, 2023 3:12 AM

Jada is such a pain in the ass, I'm sure she's not popular at all in Hollywood but nobody will call her out on her shit.

by Anonymousreply 373May 23, 2023 3:14 AM

Claudette Colbert was FRENCH.

by Anonymousreply 374May 23, 2023 3:36 AM

Unless you are red head with a prominent nose and preferably Mediterranean features, you have no business playing Cleopatra. Liz Taylor was as wildly off-base as this present actress.

by Anonymousreply 375May 23, 2023 3:54 AM

The Taylor version, the Colbert version were Hollywood spectacles from an earlier time. They weren't selling themselves as documentaries with commentary from "historians". They were pure entertainment.

by Anonymousreply 376May 23, 2023 4:10 AM

Right but the Taylor film helped cement a lot of wrong ideas about Cleo that persist to this day, chiefly around aesthetics, which in the film are heavily inspired by the discoveries in King Tut's tomb (which predated Cleo by many centuries). People to this day will insist Cleo flounced around in a black bob wig masquerading as the goddess Isis in a costume resembling a skimpy golden sarcophagus. She actually got around most of the time in a Greek style dress with her red hair in a bun.

by Anonymousreply 377May 23, 2023 4:22 AM

[quote]Unless you are red head with a prominent nose and preferably Mediterranean features

Going by this description she must have had the deepest of throats to still be as popular as she is today.

by Anonymousreply 378May 23, 2023 7:08 AM

[quote]People to this day will insist Cleo flounced around in a black bob wig masquerading as the goddess Isis in a costume resembling a skimpy golden sarcophagus.

Only the dumb ones. They can hang out with the other ignorant ones who think she was black. Two stupids do not make a fact.

by Anonymousreply 379May 23, 2023 8:47 AM

[QUOTE] R343 It's called heritage. And people cling to it.

That is a uniquely US perspective, 3rd generation descendants of emigrant's to a new Country don't describe themselves in the way people in the US do (Irish American, Italian American).

When did you last hear someone describe themselves as German Spanish or French British?

The US obsession with where your great grandparents originated is a source of amusement in the rest of the World.

by Anonymousreply 380May 23, 2023 10:19 AM

Try migrating to Turkey

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by Anonymousreply 381May 23, 2023 10:45 AM

R380, then why is it that the Egyptians were the ones who complained?

by Anonymousreply 382May 23, 2023 12:27 PM

The Ptolemaic descendants knew they were white but adopted Egyptian customs enthusiastically, banging on about being Greek wouldn't have been politically expedient for a Pharaoh of Egypt.

by Anonymousreply 383May 23, 2023 12:46 PM

Wrong. Cleopatra was the first in her family line to even speak Egyptian, after hundreds of years of rule. The family played to both the native people and the vast Greek settler population when it suited. One foot in both worlds but still resoundingly Greek. Cleo would chuck on a wig, flit down the Nile and worship bulls when required but most of the time she was in Alexandria being thoroughly Greek.

by Anonymousreply 384May 23, 2023 12:51 PM

[quote]When did you last hear someone describe themselves as German Spanish or French British?

You're talking about white immigrants to white countries at a time when assimilation was prioritized by not only the immigrant but the country's government. Now tell me about the assimilation of Muslims and Africans into Southern France. Tell me about the Syrians in Germany. Tell me about the Somalis in Sweden. Until recently, European countries required quick and thorough assimilation into their culture as part of the right to immigrate to their country. Not working that way anymore. Enjoy.

by Anonymousreply 385May 23, 2023 1:27 PM

Irish Americans or Italian Americans not white enough for you? They are just Americans.

Every Country wants immigrants to assimilate.

by Anonymousreply 386May 23, 2023 1:47 PM

If you want to see some interesting stuff about Cleopatra and Nefertiti, there is a TV series called Expedition Unknown on (HBO) Max. Season 5 has a two part episode about Cleopatra, Nefertiti and Hapshepsut. Episode 7, Great Women of Ancient Egypt, and Episode 8, Egypt’s lost Queens.

Also in that series, there are some other episodes about ancient Egypt. It may also be available for purchase on Amazon Prime or on Discovery.

by Anonymousreply 387May 23, 2023 7:46 PM

The little known true details about Cleopatra

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by Anonymousreply 388May 23, 2023 8:08 PM

R381 the Turks weren't too keen on the Armenians either and they're the original 'Aryans'.

by Anonymousreply 389May 23, 2023 8:11 PM

R365 is kidding, but makes a good point. Back in the 1970s, there were roles that portrayed strong black woman original characters. There was no need to blackwash an existing historical figure, because there were contemporary movies with main roles about strong black women that did well.

If somebody did remake black Cleopatra, the 1970s movie, as well as other big roles for black women, there would be no place for “Martha Washington was really black, so I’m casting a black woman in the role to show “the truth.”

This “enlightened” project showing us “the truth,” isn’t about history. It’s about an actress that wants to produce a movie with roles for black actresses. Jada is obviously ignorant as hell and wouldn’t know history if you slapped her in the face with a history book. This is about actresses wanting roles.

Somebody who is a better producer or director needs to make a movie about modern black women. A lot of movies with main black characters do well now, but those ones are entertaining and well written. This is just a talentless actress using her husband’s money for a vanity project no one wanted to see.

by Anonymousreply 390May 24, 2023 3:18 PM

To me, all this rewriting of history to put black actors in non-black roles is insulting to black history.

Why has nobody ever made a movie about Bose Ikard, a black cowboy in the 1800’s who was the right hand man of Charles Goodnight, cowboy legend? Ikard was the basis for a fictitional character in Lonesome Dove. Ikard eventually married and retired to a farm. There’s a great dramatic cowboy movie there. And westerns do well.

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by Anonymousreply 391May 24, 2023 3:29 PM

Young Egyptians object.

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by Anonymousreply 392May 25, 2023 5:43 PM

[quote]People seem to have forgotten there was a huge anti-Catholic, anti-Papist prejudice among many white protestant Americans. Italians, Hispanics and Irish were primarily Catholic.

WASPs discriminated against anyone who wasn’t WASP and they were the ruling class in America for a long time. And, other ethnic groups of all shades and heritages are just as bigoted about those not like themselves. I’ve never met any group of people of any kind who are entitled to claim the moral high ground. It’s just that some groups had/have more power than others.

by Anonymousreply 393May 25, 2023 6:28 PM

Expect to see more of this "_____________ was really black" shit.

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by Anonymousreply 394June 4, 2023 2:24 PM

Oh no! Egyptians are mad! Stop the world!

by Anonymousreply 395June 4, 2023 2:27 PM

R394 The kid's mom is right. Columbus did not find our country, in fact he never even set foot in today's USA. Now as far as White people can't teach Black history, that's obviously idiotic.

by Anonymousreply 396June 5, 2023 8:32 PM

[quote] Expect to see more of this "_____________ was really black" shit.

Yes, apparently the “original Jews” were black people.

by Anonymousreply 397June 5, 2023 10:27 PM

Imagine if Italians had chosen to celebrate Vespucci instead of Columbus as a means to ingratiate themselves into American Society. There would probably be more statues standing today.

by Anonymousreply 398June 6, 2023 6:57 PM

Whether Columbus discovered it or not, these commercials are running in India. British colonialism really fucked people's heads up. Can you imagine this ad in the United States?

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by Anonymousreply 399June 8, 2023 8:58 PM

[quote] British colonialism really fucked people's heads up.

I'm not sure I'd blame China's attitude on the Brits

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by Anonymousreply 400June 8, 2023 9:08 PM

r399 I'm White AF and I want to try that skin whitening cream. I wonder what would happen?

by Anonymousreply 401June 8, 2023 10:52 PM

R401 after using skin whitening cream.

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by Anonymousreply 402June 9, 2023 2:33 PM

This YouTube reaction articulates all of the DL arguments.

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by Anonymousreply 403June 16, 2023 7:44 PM

I like Amala, she has an interesting bio as to how she came to the decision that left wing ideology was not aligned with her own world view. But man, once she decided to reject the liberal side she took a hard dive into the right wing stuff instead.

I agree with her on the Cleopatra issue, but I do not give a flying fuck about Ariel being played by a black actress or any fictional character being played by a different race than the original creation. I just bring that up because they’re a fast cut to the actress who played Ariel at the opening of the video.

by Anonymousreply 404June 16, 2023 10:39 PM

*there is a fast cut to…

by Anonymousreply 405June 16, 2023 10:40 PM

Yeah, I don't get that either r404. Like why even bring that up? It automatically taints the rest of what she has to say.

by Anonymousreply 406June 16, 2023 11:08 PM

[quote] Yeah, I don't get that either [R404]. Like why even bring that up? It automatically taints the rest of what she has to say.

uhhh, no it doesn't.

by Anonymousreply 407June 17, 2023 3:09 AM

Yeah, it does. It taints everything with a political bent. It becomes one of those stopped clock moments where she's wrong most of the time but happens to be right on this. She becomes a nut who just happened to be right this one time. It's like saying at least Mussolini had the trains running on time. I am less likely to use her as an example for expressing certain beliefs because her other ones are so off.

by Anonymousreply 408June 17, 2023 10:26 AM

Can anyone with a sub to "The Spectator" post an archive link to Douglas Murray's column of a few weeks ago called "The Inversion of History"?

One of the reasons the black population is not growing is because of the liberal left's pushing of mixed race couples. With the black population still well in the minority, the constant pushing of interracial marriages will leave the white majority slightly tanner, but the black population increasingly much lighter, leading, inevitably, to a diminishing authentic "black" presence.

It's comical to me that no one in Britain and America (in Britain the Afro-Caribbean population is about 4%, although you'd never know it watching the telly) has really thought about what the media push on mixed race relationships will result in: diminishing the actual black population, and only slightly less white, white population.

by Anonymousreply 409June 17, 2023 1:28 PM

Dollars to donuts R409, there are tons more black people in the world than white people. You are looking at the world from a very myopic western point of view. I don't think black people are in danger of disappearing, even in the countries you mentioned. And considering black skin is a dominate trait, it would take generations and generations to erase it. While on the other hand one drop of black in a white person can change the whole schematic. Two generations and it's completely absorbed.

by Anonymousreply 410June 17, 2023 8:15 PM

Just to give you an example, R409, I am a black American. I did my DNA and found out I am 28% European, and the whitest of the white countries too - Norwegian, Scandinavian, British and Irish. You would never know it looking at me.

by Anonymousreply 411June 17, 2023 8:24 PM

Donna Summer's granddaughters:

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by Anonymousreply 412June 17, 2023 8:28 PM

If a black person and a white person have a child, the child usually looks light-skinned black. If that light-skinned black person reproduces with a white person, their children usually look white. Grace Jones's biracial son had a kid with a white woman and the kid looks white. Donna Summer's eldest biracial daughter had kids with a white guy and those kids all look white. You'd never know any of them had a black grandmother.

Grace Jones's grandchild:

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by Anonymousreply 413June 17, 2023 8:28 PM

[quote] Grace Jones's grandchild:

Beige Lives Matter

by Anonymousreply 414June 17, 2023 9:11 PM

[quote] Yeah, it does. It taints everything with a political bent. It becomes one of those stopped clock moments where she's wrong most of the time but happens to be right on this. She becomes a nut who just happened to be right this one time. It's like saying at least Mussolini had the trains running on time. I am less likely to use her as an example for expressing certain beliefs because her other ones are so off.

You make no sense.

Her entire vidoe is about the Cleopatra debacle. The Little Mermaid thing was 1 second. So even if you think that part is "wrong", her "clock" was right 99% of the time.

by Anonymousreply 415June 18, 2023 7:20 AM

[quote]in Britain the Afro-Caribbean population is about 4%, although you'd never know it watching the telly

The TV commercials on UK television give the impression that the country is 70% black. It is bizarre.

by Anonymousreply 416June 18, 2023 7:58 AM

R415 this particular video represents the 1% of the the clock being right compared to the 99% of her other videos is what I am saying. I am not talking about just this one video which I agree with. But the fact that she has a problem with a black person playing a fictional charger lets me know she has a problem with black people in general. Because that argument is just silly. Even if you don't agree with them only looking for a black actress to play Arial as a stunt, once it's done - leave it alone. And considering the very racist past that Disney has had in their movies and who was allowed to go to their parks, initially, I think it's a step in the right direction.

When I say it taints the video it's because I was agreeing with her on this particular point only to realize she has a problem with black people in general.

by Anonymousreply 417June 18, 2023 9:00 AM

^^ charger = character....

by Anonymousreply 418June 18, 2023 9:04 AM

R410, No there aren't. The percentages of black and white people worldwide are similar with slightly more white people. Exact numbers, of course, depend on definitions--i.e. are Persians white? Depends on who's doing the defining that day.

Most of the world's population is Asian. It's not even a contest. China, India and Indonesia are three of the four most populated countries--the U.S. is no. 3. and is way behind China and India, which each have more than a billion people in them.

It's a brown world out there.

by Anonymousreply 419June 18, 2023 10:14 PM

[quote] When I say it taints the video it's because I was agreeing with her on this particular point only to realize she has a problem with black people in general.

I never heard of her before but THIS ENTIRE VIDEO makes total sense.

And she's black herself.

by Anonymousreply 420June 19, 2023 3:54 AM

R420 quel surprise R420, black people can have a problem with black people. Mind blowing, I know. And yes her video makes total sense but the little mermaid stuff is a red flag. You might be right, but you may be crazy.

by Anonymousreply 421June 25, 2023 6:37 PM

R419....

Africa has a population of 1,216,000,000 people.

187 Million of them are not Black. 182 Million of them are Arab and 5 Million of them are White people that have come from Europe over the years, and the overwhelming majority of these people are living with in South America.

After this, the Black population of Africa is around 1,000,000,000 people. Which is way over half of their entire race.

There are 48 Million Blacks in the Caribbean.

There are 39 Million Blacks in the United States. I'm not including mixed race people because let's be honest yeah? No matter how much they identify as Black, they aren't. I'm here to educate I'm not here to say what people want me to say. : )

There are only 8 Million Blacks in the entire continent of Europe.

There are only 15 Million Blacks in Brazil.

There are only 1.5 Million Blacks in Mexico.

There are only 1 Million Blacks in Canada.

There are only 400,000 Blacks in Australia.

There are only 159,000 Blacks in Argentina.

Asia as a whole continent is a very homogeneous place. Not many people of different races live there. I'd be surprised if there were 1 Million Blacks.

With that being said, the White population of the world (NOT counting Arabs, Mixed Race of any kind including at least 95% of every country except Brazil and Argentina below the United States. Not including Indians or the majority of Turks.) Population is at from how I've studied the demographics of every country 760 Million. It's no more than 780 Million and no less than 750 Million.

Approximately 745,000,000 people in the world are non-hispanic, Non-mixed whites.

Basically the population of Europe, adding Americans and colonial countries, and minusing all the migrants in Europe.

Representing the most rare race on earth at 9.6%.

by Anonymousreply 422June 25, 2023 6:49 PM

^^ South Africa, not South America...

by Anonymousreply 423June 25, 2023 6:49 PM

The correct definition of white people is “those of European Caucasian ancestry”, which Wikipedia uses when it gives the correct worldwide population of whites, which shows whites to be a dwindling ethnicity that is almost run into extinction. The correct figure is 6.5% worldwide, which is shown on the Wikipedia page entitled “White People”.

by Anonymousreply 424June 25, 2023 6:51 PM

[quote]Asia as a whole continent is a very homogeneous place.

The people of West Asia, South Asia, Central Asia, and East Asia are very different from one another, so how can you describe the continent as homogenous?

by Anonymousreply 425June 25, 2023 6:59 PM
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