I just saw BELL,BOOK,AND CANDLE and I couldn't believe how bad and unfun she was. It's the worst performance ever by a major star. I had only seen her in VERTIGO, and she was not great, but not terrible. But this was another level of bad. And the make up on her...EW the eyebrow in the middle of the forehead, even worse than Ava Gardner
KIM NOVAK was a HORRIBLE actress, why was she even a star, let alone the biggest box office draw of the 50's ???
|by Anonymous||reply 422||May 27, 2023 10:17 AM|
Kim was a Movie Star *not* an actress.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||May 9, 2023 6:56 PM|
But was she good in anything ?
|by Anonymous||reply 2||May 9, 2023 6:59 PM|
She was considered good enough at the time, r2. You have to remember that her job description at Columbia was sex symbol. She wasn't any worse than Raquel Welch. I think she gives a lovely performance in Middle of the Night (in the role Gena Rowlands played on Broadway).
|by Anonymous||reply 3||May 9, 2023 7:14 PM|
thks R3, I'll watch that. Ok she wasn't worse than Raquel Welch, but who was ? Raquel was not given serious parts, was she ? And she was not a star in the golden age
|by Anonymous||reply 4||May 9, 2023 7:28 PM|
What's wrong with Ava's brows?
|by Anonymous||reply 5||May 9, 2023 7:33 PM|
they're to high and too fake, and Kim's are the same but downright hideous
|by Anonymous||reply 6||May 9, 2023 7:37 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 7||May 9, 2023 7:39 PM|
She was excellent in Middle of the Night.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||May 9, 2023 7:39 PM|
She was the Lavender Blonde.
Loved her in Vertigo.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||May 9, 2023 7:41 PM|
She had charisma!
|by Anonymous||reply 10||May 9, 2023 7:42 PM|
OP’s opinion is SO CORRECT that he has to TYPE IN CAPS TO REINFORCE IT!!
So fed up with imbeciles who declare their opinions as facts here.
You’re a piece of shit OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||May 9, 2023 7:44 PM|
Raquel was in BEWITCHED as a stewardess on a plane...they didn't even bother to film her face, you just see her ass
|by Anonymous||reply 12||May 9, 2023 7:44 PM|
R11 = Kim.
|by Anonymous||reply 13||May 9, 2023 7:45 PM|
There were two very obvious reasons Kim Novak was a box office draw.
|by Anonymous||reply 14||May 9, 2023 7:45 PM|
Shut up, r13.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||May 9, 2023 7:46 PM|
HI Kim !
|by Anonymous||reply 16||May 9, 2023 7:47 PM|
Are you all having fun being childish?
|by Anonymous||reply 17||May 9, 2023 7:49 PM|
She was drop-dead gorgeous.
|by Anonymous||reply 18||May 9, 2023 7:50 PM|
I find her entertaining now. “Look see if I pull my face, I look like her!”
|by Anonymous||reply 19||May 9, 2023 7:50 PM|
Bell Book and Candle is one of my favorite movies of all time and it's one of the roles that Novak was actually perfect in: slightly mysterious, beautiful, and introspective.
According to the playwright, the play (from which the movie came) was actually about the underground life of gay men in the 1940s and 1950s, the "witches" being the gays. The clubs, the secret meetings, the power players.... all gay.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||May 9, 2023 7:52 PM|
what a poor taste you have
|by Anonymous||reply 21||May 9, 2023 8:12 PM|
Kim Novak is a riot as the egotistical, bitchy actress and rival of Liz Taylor in The Mirror Crack’d.
Also a huge fan of Ava Gardner.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||May 9, 2023 8:30 PM|
*Every* age has their sex symbols with questionable acting talents, r4. Kim was silver age not golden.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||May 9, 2023 8:38 PM|
silver age ? that's new.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||May 9, 2023 8:39 PM|
Oh, shut the fuck up, OP.
Kim was playing a mysterious and conflicted witch in "Bell, Book and Candle" and she was just fine.
And Ava was so beautiful and focused the nuances you seem to have missed really didn't matter much in her roles. She even was fine in "Night of the Iguana."
|by Anonymous||reply 25||May 9, 2023 8:43 PM|
[quote] Also a huge fan of Ava Gardner.
you a lez ? must be. Only lezzies like Gardner
|by Anonymous||reply 26||May 9, 2023 8:43 PM|
R25 wasn't she supposed to be funny ?
|by Anonymous||reply 27||May 9, 2023 8:45 PM|
Not really, r24...
|by Anonymous||reply 28||May 9, 2023 8:46 PM|
I just realized Pink could prob play her in a biopic based on looks alone.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||May 9, 2023 8:47 PM|
I liked her in the Picnic but it also happens to be one of my favorite moves of the 50s. I saw the movie as a child and was hoping she would go with Holden because they were in love. When I saw the movie as an adult I kept thinking she was a fool for going off with Holden and not marrying the rich guy.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||May 9, 2023 8:48 PM|
Kim who ?
|by Anonymous||reply 31||May 9, 2023 8:50 PM|
R11 somehow social media and the internet have brainwashed middle and low brow twatting trolls to communicate in this fashion. With declarative provocative trolling statements.
It's a pity because these people might have once been capable of reasonable and pleasant conversations. Perhaps not brilliant and witty but nevertheless, pleasant.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||May 9, 2023 9:07 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 33||May 9, 2023 9:08 PM|
R32 tryng to be incisive...LOL. fail, bitch
|by Anonymous||reply 34||May 9, 2023 9:15 PM|
I've only seen her in The Mirror Crack'd, Vertigo, and Falcon Crest. She was the only reason to watch The Mirror Crack'd.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||May 9, 2023 9:16 PM|
I confess I've only seen her in Vertigo, and she was very good in the role. As were her breasts.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||May 9, 2023 9:18 PM|
[quote]She was the only reason to watch The Mirror Crack'd.
True. This movie was vulgar, and everybody was miscast.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||May 9, 2023 9:23 PM|
At the end of PICNIC, when Betty Field is pleading with her not to run away with Hal, she says, "He'll cheat on you, he won't get a job, he'll drink, he'll beat you," and Kim turns her, flat as an ironing board, and says, "Oh mom, you don't love a man because he's PERFECT!"
|by Anonymous||reply 38||May 9, 2023 9:27 PM|
Okay, we'll give you the eyebrows in Bell, Book & Candle, but everything else was PURRRRFECT...
|by Anonymous||reply 39||May 9, 2023 9:35 PM|
Oh, she was decent in BB&C. She was gorgeous and she had a certain smoky charm that worked. Stewart was a worse piece of casting.
And she was decent in Picnic, where, again, the leading man was glaringly awful (Bill Holden).
But, no, she didn't get to Hollywood on her dramatic talent. But then, many others didn't either.
|by Anonymous||reply 40||May 9, 2023 10:00 PM|
The original stage production was Lili Palmer and Rex Harrison. Oh, how I'd have loved to have seen THAT!
Let's recast the film.
|by Anonymous||reply 41||May 9, 2023 10:01 PM|
thank you R39, for your honesty. I respect that you love this movie. It made me feel uncomfortable. To me, It was creepy instead of funny, Novak was very sexy but not charming and funny as I thought the script called for, she was speaking in a breathy manner that reminded me of the worst MGM school of acting, and the whole thing was very dark. Stewart OTOH was hilarious and quite charming. Just my opinion
|by Anonymous||reply 42||May 9, 2023 10:02 PM|
Lili Palmer was probably perfect, and she was stunning
|by Anonymous||reply 43||May 9, 2023 10:03 PM|
She was positively gorgeous; she was very underrated actress. She was under contract with Columbia Pictures. Studio mogul Harry Cohn was a thoroughgoing bastard. Yet, he mentored her and gave her excellent roles in great movies. She was his top star in the studio, in the 1950s.
Kim drove Harry Cohn into fits of rage. She had an independent streak. Kim sat in his office numerous times and he screamed and hurled invectives at her. When he heard about Kim's alleged affair with Sammy Davis, Jr., he had a heart attack and died. He was filled with rage. (It was 1959.)
Harry Cohn said that Kim's career would dissolve without his guidance. He was right, her career tanked in the 1960s.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||May 9, 2023 10:25 PM|
wasn't Cohn the prehistoric Weinstein ? He fucked Kim, right ? and again and again and again
|by Anonymous||reply 45||May 9, 2023 10:42 PM|
R43 She and Harrison were married at the time.
BB&C stage to film had a strange history. Zanuck bought the rights for his then-wife, Jennifer Jones, but she fell pregnant. Then Vera Miles, who was originally cast as the mysterious blonde in "Vertigo" fell pregnant. Novak's studio leant her out for "Vertigo" on the proviso that MGM lend Stewart out for BB&C.
Stewart was far too old and sexless. He admitted himself when he saw the rushes that he was way past romantic roles like this, and they had to work really hard to make him look young enough to get it up for a highly sensual woman being presented as in her late twenties.
I always enjoy the film, though, and one reason was the flawless script: it flowed well. Plus the charms of the lovely Janice Rule, who knocked her bitchy part out of the park, never mind Hermione Gingold as Mrs DePass and Elsa Lanchester as Queenie, Jack Lemmon as Gillian's feckless brother, and Ernie Kovacs as the alkie occult writer.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||May 9, 2023 10:55 PM|
^I forgot to mention the parrot:
"You're a fool! You're a fool! You're a fool!"
|by Anonymous||reply 47||May 9, 2023 10:56 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 48||May 9, 2023 10:57 PM|
Jennifer Jones would have understood the part and made it funny. She was a terrific actress whan she wanted
|by Anonymous||reply 49||May 9, 2023 10:57 PM|
[quote]but she fell pregnant
|by Anonymous||reply 50||May 9, 2023 11:02 PM|
R49 I always thought the role should belong to a brunette, and that Merle should be a blonde, but it got reversed in the film.
And Vera Miles might have been a better choice in "Vertigo", too.
Show business is bloody. I'm an old balletomane (yes, that kind of English queer), and I remember the behind the scenes scandal of how Lynn Seymour lost out on the premiere of MacMillan's wonderful version of Romeo & Juliette, for which she'd been cast along with Christopher Gable. She fell pregnant during rehearsals and actually had an abortion to keep the part. Then the RB changed its mind and gave the parts to a still viable but early forties Fonteyn and to Nureyev for the box office. Sol Hurok said he wouldn't bring it over if they weren't in the leads. It was a bitter pill and the entire company was really angry.
Show business stinks.
|by Anonymous||reply 51||May 9, 2023 11:09 PM|
R50 I'm British. That's how we say it here.
We also say "found herself up the duff".
|by Anonymous||reply 52||May 9, 2023 11:11 PM|
[quote]And Vera Miles might have been a better choice in "Vertigo", too.
I don't see it. I don't see Vera as having any mystery.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||May 9, 2023 11:13 PM|
Vera Mles in Vertigo ? as the fascinating Madeleine ? Wasn't Vera Miles a pudgy little thing that was inexplicably cast in some Ford and Hitchcock movies and was always transparent ? who was already forgotten in her peak years ? Isn't there a vera Miles joke in THE MORNING AFTER that goes like "I was supposed to be the new Vera Miles;.. I could you be the new someone nobody remembers ?" ?
|by Anonymous||reply 54||May 9, 2023 11:15 PM|
Mrs. Gordon Scott, bitches, Mrs. Gordon Scott!
|by Anonymous||reply 55||May 9, 2023 11:20 PM|
Vera Miles wasn't pudgy. R54! She was, in fact, lithe and beautiful--
|by Anonymous||reply 56||May 9, 2023 11:22 PM|
she looked fat in PSYCHO
|by Anonymous||reply 57||May 9, 2023 11:27 PM|
Vera didn't have a "face*, Kim had a *face*.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||May 9, 2023 11:28 PM|
You type fat, r57.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||May 9, 2023 11:29 PM|
Kim had a BACK. She was "the most beautiful back in movies"
|by Anonymous||reply 60||May 9, 2023 11:29 PM|
Novak was never the biggest box office draw of the 50's... she had a few good years as a box office draw and a few good movies, nothing more...she more or less retired from full time acting at only 33 years old...
the greatest scene she ever did on film, was being with the one and only clint walker and running her hands thru that glorious hairy chest and later the characters hinted at screwing (off camera of course) in their film " the great bank robbery" in 1969...
|by Anonymous||reply 61||May 9, 2023 11:39 PM|
R61 Novak WAS the biggest box office attraction of 1956, at least
|by Anonymous||reply 62||May 9, 2023 11:57 PM|
[quote] I liked her in the Picnic but it also happens to be one of my favorite moves of the 50s. I saw the movie as a child and was hoping she would go with Holden because they were in love. When I saw the movie as an adult I kept thinking she was a fool for going off with Holden and not marrying the rich guy.
[quote] At the end of PICNIC, when Betty Field is pleading with her not to run away with Hal, she says, "He'll cheat on you, he won't get a job, he'll drink, he'll beat you," and Kim turns her, flat as an ironing board, and says, "Oh mom, you don't love a man because he's PERFECT!"
LOL! r30 and r38. I had to quote your posts. They so perfectly captured my reactions to "Picnic", they earned an encore.
An astute DLer had me look at Novak's performance in "Picnic" in whole new light when they posted that her minimal acting talent actually was well suited, and helped enhance, her playing the role of Madge. Their point was that Madge was harmlessly shallow, if not slow, and a wooden performance helped that depiction.
Off-topic, but "Picnic" (the movie, I've never seen a stage production and I doubt I ever will) carries a personal hallmark for me.
Along with being one of the most poignant, sad movies I've ever seen, and along with what r30 posted, I realized I finally became a mature adult when it dawned on me that the ending is NOT a happy one. Mom is right.
The screenplay also contains a line that has been true throughout the ages and will be so into the far future:
"A pretty girl doesn't have too long. Just a few years. Then she's the equal of kings; she can walk out of a shanty like this and live in a palace!"
|by Anonymous||reply 63||May 10, 2023 12:12 AM|
Speaking of Bell, Book and Candle, I’m old but sometimes I still can’t believe Ernie Kovacs is dead. He was a huge star and his death was a shock. I knew his daughter Mia and, bizarrely, she died in a car accident 20 years after he did.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||May 10, 2023 12:51 AM|
Jennifer Jones wasn't married to Zanuck, she was married to Selznick...
|by Anonymous||reply 65||May 10, 2023 1:18 AM|
R64, every time I see Kovacs and Adams, I think of the last Lucy-Desi show ever filmed where Edie sang a haunting version of "That's All" to the two stars who weren't even on speaking terms at the time.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||May 10, 2023 1:29 AM|
R10- I like that word- it belongs on the thread Words You Don't Hear Anymore
|by Anonymous||reply 67||May 10, 2023 1:45 AM|
R64- Speaking of Ernie Kovaks- he was kinda hot. If I had been born when he died in 1962 I would have sucked him to completion.
|by Anonymous||reply 68||May 10, 2023 1:46 AM|
R66- For you.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||May 10, 2023 2:04 AM|
[quote]Their point was that Madge was harmlessly shallow, if not slow, and a wooden performance helped that depiction.
See Cybill in The Last Picture Show
|by Anonymous||reply 70||May 10, 2023 2:40 AM|
We named our family cat, Pyewacket. We loved Kim Novak.
|by Anonymous||reply 71||May 10, 2023 2:56 AM|
Kim was about as close as one could get to being the textbook definition of an ingenue. The fact that she's still living never ceases to startle me, as most all of her contemporaries died years ago.
|by Anonymous||reply 72||May 10, 2023 5:37 AM|
[quote]An astute DLer
that.never.happened... -120 000 /10 . Don't quit your day job
|by Anonymous||reply 73||May 10, 2023 6:05 AM|
R22, the scene is here:
|by Anonymous||reply 74||May 10, 2023 6:09 AM|
I love how Ernie Kovacs shows up these Kim Novak movies. In "Strangers When We Meet" he plays another bored novelist who's friends with an architect (Kirk Douglas) who works from his suburban home which provides excellent access to a horny housewife (Kim Novak) while her indifferent (implied gay) husband is at work.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||May 10, 2023 1:09 PM|
Harry Cohn fucked Kim. He fucked her in the pussy, he fucked her in the ass, he fucked her in the mouth, sometimes he ass to mouth fucked her. He passed her around to the studio execs, he recorded her being gangbanged and covered in cum and piss. He used her. He wore her out
|by Anonymous||reply 76||May 10, 2023 1:15 PM|
She was fucking Richard Quine during SWWM.
|by Anonymous||reply 77||May 10, 2023 1:18 PM|
who didn't that whore Kim fuck ?
|by Anonymous||reply 78||May 10, 2023 1:20 PM|
I still don't see anything wrong with Ava's brows.
|by Anonymous||reply 79||May 10, 2023 1:42 PM|
considering you don't see anything wrong with being a lez....
|by Anonymous||reply 80||May 10, 2023 1:47 PM|
R62... NO, Novak was NOT the number #1 box office star in 1956.... Back in that era, all the male stars regularly were bigger box office than any female.. in 1956, Novak barely made the top 10 in box office draws and was not even the top female draw, that was Marilyn....Marilyn was #7 and Novak was #9....
|by Anonymous||reply 81||May 10, 2023 2:02 PM|
Novak was good, perhaps not great in Picnic. She probably knew first hand what is was like to want something more than being the prettiest girl in town and wanted some adventure beyond her sheltered experience. Her limited range works with her character's naivety and while the rich guy was a more practical match, she knew she'd be unhappy with him, too. Cliff Robertson was no great shakes as an actor but it works here---a small town rich guy of limited imagination and depth. The film's cinematogrpahy is one of the best examples I've ever seen of "opening up" an adapted stage play----the cinema verite of the small town Labor Day events and the ending, following the bus out of town (with perfect Copland-esque music), add to a film that could have been weighed down with the stagey dialogue. Novak is supported by a great cast (other than Roz Russell's hammy performance) which actually makes her look better than if they had cast weaker supporting players. Holden is too old but just fine---Roberston also was a little too old, so the two are well matched as former friends.
|by Anonymous||reply 82||May 10, 2023 2:18 PM|
[quote]Harry Cohn fucked Kim. He fucked her in the pussy, he fucked her in the ass, he fucked her in the mouth, sometimes he ass to mouth fucked her. He passed her around to the studio execs, he recorded her being gangbanged and covered in cum and piss. He used her. He wore her out
Put down the meth pipe, OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 83||May 10, 2023 3:33 PM|
She was the Jean Harlow of her time; A "sex symbol" whose appeal is strictly limited to the time she was popular.
|by Anonymous||reply 84||May 10, 2023 3:37 PM|
Look for Broadway fave Phyllis Newman as one of Kim's high school girl friends in PICNIC. She has the rather startling name Juanita Beaver.
Also, look for Kim in her TV debut in 1956 as the Mystery Guest on What's My Line?, publicizing PICNIC, where male panelists Bennett Cerf and Desi Arnaz are virtually frothing at the mouth at her stunning appearance, all the more impressive with that barbaric early TV studio lighting and camera work.
|by Anonymous||reply 85||May 10, 2023 6:39 PM|
Novak's Madeline/Judy in "Vertigo" is one of the most iconic characters in the history of cinema. Sorry that OP proclaims she was a HORRIBLE (all in caps, lol) actress but I don't think the the camera would agree with that assessment. Some chalk it up to Hitchcock but in the end it's Kim who is spellbinding. Also, she's purr-fection in "Bell, Book and Candle".
|by Anonymous||reply 86||May 10, 2023 10:33 PM|
...and Phyllis Newman will have to do as Juanita Beaver.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||May 10, 2023 10:37 PM|
well she's in one of my all time favorite movies, Bell, Book and Candle and she was amazing......
|by Anonymous||reply 88||May 10, 2023 10:40 PM|
This is ridiculous.
|by Anonymous||reply 89||May 10, 2023 10:44 PM|
I loved Kim as Kit Marlowe in Falcon Crest. Loved Picnic too. So beautiful.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||May 10, 2023 10:51 PM|
Jane Wyman was a saint. Kim Novak was one of the many actors "of a certain age" she gave jobs to in the 1980s...Kim play Kit/Skylar stepdaughter of DL fave Ceasar Romero.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||May 10, 2023 10:56 PM|
Don't know if many of you know this but Kit Marlowe was the name Harry Cohn wanted for Kim when he signed her at Columbia. Which she hated and wouldn't allow.
Her real name was Marilyn Novak and she knew she'd have to change Marilyn, for obvious reasons but insisted on holding onto Novak. When Cohn tried to compromise with the name Kit Novak, she rejected that, too, as she felt Kit suggested someone kittenish or foxy. I believe she herself came up with Kim, which she felt had an innocent child-like quality.
|by Anonymous||reply 92||May 10, 2023 10:58 PM|
I’ve never understood the appeal of Kim Novak. She was indeed minimally talented and even when she was young, her face was always done up with enough spackle and paint to stock an Ace Hardware. There was just something cheap and stale about her, always.
|by Anonymous||reply 93||May 11, 2023 2:09 AM|
[quote]—Kim Stanley and Kim Hunter, the first Kims
|by Anonymous||reply 94||May 11, 2023 2:16 AM|
She was a major movie star, r93, I don't know what to tell you.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||May 11, 2023 2:19 AM|
[Quote]Kim drove Harry Cohn into fits of rage. She had an independent streak. Kim sat in his office numerous times and he screamed and hurled invectives at her. When he heard about Kim's alleged affair with Sammy Davis, Jr., he had a heart attack and died.
In an interview on French TV Capucine who was also under contract at Columbia in the 50's said Novak was Columbia's number one star and that Cohn sent the mob to visit Sammy Davis Jr. who was performing at the Sands in Vegas at the time.
Davis was told to stop seeing Novak or he'd get whacked and to marry one of the show girls in his act asap. He followed orders.
|by Anonymous||reply 96||May 11, 2023 2:29 AM|
She was difficult on the set of "Eye Of The Devil". She wasn't happy about having a much younger, Sharon Tate beside her in the film. Novak was replaced after a "riding accident" by Deborah Kerr.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||May 11, 2023 2:43 AM|
Kim could be just fine in the right part But if you want to see her be truly terrible, check out "Jeanne Eagels" (Kim attempting to evoke a legendary actress) and the camp classic "The Legend of Lylah Clare."
|by Anonymous||reply 98||May 11, 2023 6:17 AM|
Kim had a real sweet clit.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||May 11, 2023 6:37 AM|
She was Cohn's replacement for Rita Hayworth when Rita left for a vacation and married Prince Aly Kahn.
|by Anonymous||reply 100||May 11, 2023 6:43 AM|
Some of the posts are laughable. One of the most iconic part in cinema ? ok, but Kim was notoriously AWFUL in VERTIGO. Hitchock himself said he lost interest in the movie when she was cast, couldn't stop apologizing for her TERRIBLE performance during the promotion of the movie, told the press how much he HATED her and how she had DAMAGED and even RUINED the movie. She was BAD in PICNIC, completely WOODEN and AWKWARD, the movie is unwatchable. She was even WORSE in BELL BOOK AND CANDLE. Elizabeth Montgomery wiped the floor with her in BEWITCHED and showed the world how it should have been. She was still ATROCIOUS in THE MIRROR CRACKED. That woman didn't know how to act at all, was not funny, was not charming. She had a heavy face and a good body, and she moved it well, but it all ended when Cohn dropped her, and mercifully so
|by Anonymous||reply 101||May 11, 2023 9:48 AM|
Novak, Gardner, Mansfield, Jane Russell were whores with big boobs who couldn't act their ways out of a gangbang, and belonged to the Copacabana school of acting . They make Liz Taylor and Natalie Wood look like Sarah Bernhardt and La Duse
|by Anonymous||reply 102||May 11, 2023 9:59 AM|
She was the Jennifer Lawrence of her day and age, minus the oscar. Cohn did 't dare pull that one
|by Anonymous||reply 103||May 11, 2023 2:00 PM|
Also from OP:
[quote]I had a huge set of haemorrhoids showing up weekly almost, so doctor boss said he was going to perform "ligature" because " surgery was no picnic". He said it was painless and I could drive home after the operation. He lied to me. It hurts like HELL. I am sorry for every dick I took up there, and I took hundreds. I almost fainted on my way home. I don't want to eat, for fear, of, you know. I don't want anyone or anything messing with that part of my body anymore, ever. HELL!
|by Anonymous||reply 104||May 11, 2023 3:18 PM|
Why do lthe lez like so much digging up other threads to " confront " posters ?I know what I've written, dearie, what's your point ? you're still a miserable, self-hating dyke, ya know ?
|by Anonymous||reply 105||May 11, 2023 3:20 PM|
FYI, Gwynn, I also wrote this (which I' quite proud of ), in the "Best leading actress and her specific film role " thread :
Kim Novak : The female lead in " Gangbang in Harry Cohn's office, for the attention of Sam Giancana" part I and II , and its sequel " Gangbang in Harry Cohn's office, ft Sam Giancana, for the attention of Sammy Davis Jr"
|by Anonymous||reply 106||May 11, 2023 3:31 PM|
Rumors are the Kim Novak also has testicular feminization just like Jamie Lee Curtis
|by Anonymous||reply 107||May 11, 2023 4:26 PM|
that accounts for the very masculine mug then
|by Anonymous||reply 108||May 11, 2023 4:27 PM|
It's been reported that when Monroe and Novak were having dinner with Bob Kennedy, they both would prepare "interesting questions" scribbled on little pieces of paper hidden in their garnments , so as not to appear stupid. I bet they didn't read them when they were being drugged and gang raped by Giancana's guys on tape at lake Tahoe
|by Anonymous||reply 109||May 11, 2023 4:31 PM|
Everybody knows that Novak left Hollywood overnight when Monroe was clipped by Giancana'crew. She knew she was walking over the same bridge
|by Anonymous||reply 110||May 11, 2023 4:38 PM|
R109, what’s the story about the gang raping??
|by Anonymous||reply 111||May 11, 2023 5:00 PM|
Giancana used Sinatra to lure Monroe and co to Cal neva lodge, where they were drugged and gang raped on record, and the tapes sent to Kennedy
|by Anonymous||reply 112||May 11, 2023 5:07 PM|
According to those who saw the tapes, they were filthy. The girls were drugged out of their minds, crawling on the floor, and these wise guys were going everywhere, in their pussy, their ass, their mouth, dribbling everywhere and laughing
|by Anonymous||reply 113||May 11, 2023 5:13 PM|
No way could I get hot women like Grace Kelly and Kim Novak falling in love with busted face one-note Jimmy Stewart.
|by Anonymous||reply 114||May 11, 2023 5:29 PM|
Because Rainier de Monaco and Sammy Davis JR were so hot...when men are famous/rich, they can grab'em by the pussy
|by Anonymous||reply 115||May 11, 2023 5:34 PM|
How could Kim Novak ever be a replacement for Rita Hayworth who could dance her ass off?
|by Anonymous||reply 116||May 11, 2023 5:48 PM|
Rita was no Dame Edith Evans for sure, but she could dance, she could act a little, and she had tons of class. Comparing her with that prize cow Novak is downright insulting
|by Anonymous||reply 117||May 11, 2023 5:55 PM|
[quote]According to those who saw the tapes, they were filthy. The girls were drugged out of their minds, crawling on the floor, and these wise guys were going everywhere, in their pussy, their ass, their mouth, dribbling everywhere and laughing
Again, OP, put down the meth pipe.
|by Anonymous||reply 118||May 11, 2023 6:30 PM|
By the 1950s less musicals were being made. Even Rita stopped making musicals after Down to Earth though they always included a dance in her later films until she wanted to be a straight dramatic actress.
|by Anonymous||reply 119||May 11, 2023 9:07 PM|
She also didn't sing, r119, so it made sense.
|by Anonymous||reply 120||May 11, 2023 9:09 PM|
Talk about stupid bitchery! Starting with OP, these nasty, ill-informed queens should get lost, pronto.
|by Anonymous||reply 121||May 11, 2023 9:30 PM|
The 1950's were rife with big musicals.
|by Anonymous||reply 122||May 11, 2023 10:13 PM|
Yes but not as many movie musicals were made as in the later 1940s, certainly not a Columbia. Ann Miller picked the wrong time to get married and leave. And she picked the wrong man.
|by Anonymous||reply 123||May 11, 2023 10:17 PM|
Rita looked older than her years in Pal Joey 1957 with Frank and Novak.. At only 39 pills and booze were already showing on her face. Still magnificent though. And Novak looked stunning.
|by Anonymous||reply 124||May 11, 2023 10:31 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 125||May 11, 2023 10:32 PM|
^^ I mean to say and no Kim did not looking stunning.
|by Anonymous||reply 126||May 11, 2023 10:38 PM|
Novak had a big face. Her face is almost freaky but very masculine.
|by Anonymous||reply 127||May 11, 2023 10:38 PM|
Kim had one of those massive Hollywood heads that photographs well. She had a good voice too. I think she's better in "Vertigo" than Jimmy Stewart and Barbara Bel Geddes.
|by Anonymous||reply 128||May 11, 2023 10:41 PM|
She's not supposed to be funny in BB&C. She's supposed to be enigmatic and sexy which she is, in droves. She's sort of the straight man of the play if you will. The jokes are given to the other witches.
|by Anonymous||reply 129||May 11, 2023 10:44 PM|
I've never seen Vertigo or bell book and Candle but I loved her in Picnic and I love the theme song Picnic/Moonglow. I was a small child when she was popular.
|by Anonymous||reply 130||May 11, 2023 10:47 PM|
I always liked seeing her>sometimes bad acting on the right person can elevate>
|by Anonymous||reply 131||May 11, 2023 10:55 PM|
I don't like Vertigo because of her. But then I think Madeleine is a very hard part to play. I love Vera Miles and she was certainly a better actress than Novak but I'm not even sure she could have pulled it off. IIRC Hitchcock didn't really have that kind of woman before. His women tended to be more down-to-earth even when a glamorous blonde.
|by Anonymous||reply 132||May 12, 2023 12:08 AM|
When Ernie Kovacs was killed cars had no seat belts, airbags and the windshields were made of glass that turned your face into a jigsaw puzzle if you went through them.
|by Anonymous||reply 133||May 12, 2023 10:43 AM|
Kovacks left behind a lot of debts. Edie Adams took any job that came her way to avoid bankruptcy. She was good at Eve Arden-ish roles.
|by Anonymous||reply 134||May 12, 2023 11:21 AM|
To me, Novak isn't playing a dual role in Vertigo. She's playing Judy Barton the whole way through. First as Judy, a mistress of a wealthy business man, who's originally from Salina Kansas and now lives in SF and works at a department store salesgirl, pretending to be Madeline in order to lure Scotty to be a dupe in a crazy scheme to knock off the real Madeline. Judy isn't an actress. A girl like Judy should not be a skilled brilliant actress. She manages to pull of Madeline because she's icy hot and that manages to ensare Scotty. Most interesting part of the Madeline half of the film is seeing those brief moments when the real Judy reacts to Scotty and feels drawn to him. And the second half, Novak is excellent playing the trapped and pathetic Judy, who tries at times to hold on to some part of her identity as Judy, but having to give in to be Madeline again because she's fallen for Scotty and feels great guilt for what's she's done.
Picnic also benefits from Novak not being a skilled theatrical actress. Yes she has a few stiff line readings but unlike most of the cast, who seem to be performing for a live theater audience and go over the top (I fault Joshua Logan for this as he was a theater director and still inexperienced to film making), Novak is performing for the more intimate camera. She's not ACTING, she's being and as a result she's quite touching and sympathetic as Madge and it's no wonder Picnic made her a top star.
|by Anonymous||reply 135||May 12, 2023 11:23 AM|
"To me, Novak isn't playing a dual role in Vertigo. She's playing Judy Barton the whole way through."
Heck yeah! That's the thing about Novak's performance, the first time I saw the movie I thought she wasn't a good Madeline, I thought she was stiff and not nearly as ethereal as she was supposed to be. But she wasn't supposed to be ethereal, she was supposed to be this low-rent shopgirl trying to be ethereal, and not doing an incredibly good job.
She was absolutely fantastic in the role in spite of being a poorly trained and extremely uneven actress. It was IMHO the one time she absolutely nailed a complex, multi-layered role, but then it was probably the only time anyone ever offered her a complex and multi-layered role.
|by Anonymous||reply 136||May 12, 2023 12:44 PM|
Hitchcock wanted Grace Kelly to be Madeleine.
|by Anonymous||reply 137||May 12, 2023 1:29 PM|
Grace Kelly could never have made "Vertigo", not in a bazillion years! Yes, she would have been ravishingly ethereal as Madeline... and hopeless as Judy.
That's what made Novak work, the fact that she wasn't ethereal, she was a strong solid gal who didn't actually like glamming up. Like someone said above, Novak was playing Judy all along, and she was far more like Judy than Madeline, she actually was the regular gal who was being glammed up by others. Kelly was far more like Madeline than Judy, she spent her life as the bird in a variety of gilded cages, she wouldn't have had a clue how to play Judy.
|by Anonymous||reply 138||May 12, 2023 1:55 PM|
That's a good point, R138, I can imagine that Kelly would have 'acted' Judy in a very obvious way.
|by Anonymous||reply 139||May 12, 2023 4:31 PM|
R64 Did you ever meet Edie Adams? I’m glad Ernie Kovacs got some attention on this thread. His show was a boon while in quarantine.
|by Anonymous||reply 140||May 12, 2023 4:37 PM|
Rita was 39 ??? she looks 50
|by Anonymous||reply 141||May 12, 2023 9:39 PM|
R64 Did you know Kippie as well? The husbear's gay Swiss uncle went to Uni in Los Angeles and he knew Kippie who he said was a lesbian. I recall he said she drove a motorcycle like a fabulous fun wild woman.
Edie Adams was well-liked by the Cinecitta crowd in Europe. Decent and unaffected.
|by Anonymous||reply 142||May 12, 2023 10:07 PM|
TCM showing PICNIC tonight! 7 PM central -
|by Anonymous||reply 143||May 12, 2023 11:36 PM|
I didn't enjoy picnic. THe guy was bad at acting and obviously drunk, Kim was stiff, I wasn't interested in the story
|by Anonymous||reply 144||May 12, 2023 11:47 PM|
Picnic streams here.
|by Anonymous||reply 145||May 12, 2023 11:49 PM|
William Holden just oozed sex in "Picnic".
|by Anonymous||reply 146||May 13, 2023 1:16 AM|
The general opinion seemed to be that he was too old for the part. He’s great, had a great career.
I really like old Bill Holden in Wild Rovers.
|by Anonymous||reply 147||May 13, 2023 1:32 AM|
He had no gay appeal. I don't find him hot and I've never heard another gay lust for him.
|by Anonymous||reply 148||May 13, 2023 1:52 AM|
“Hey, beefcake, get in.”
So I…got in”.
|by Anonymous||reply 149||May 13, 2023 1:57 AM|
It's kind of amazing that Novak, Eva Marie Saint and Tippi Hedren are all still with us. How can actresses from the Hitchcock era still be alive? Those movies feel like they made 100 years ago.
|by Anonymous||reply 150||May 13, 2023 2:03 AM|
Picnic is a great film and holds up. Kim being stiff and Holden too old actually makes the movie work.
|by Anonymous||reply 151||May 13, 2023 2:07 AM|
She became a recluse after reading all the comments on DL about her facelift at the Oscars. Now she's being called a horrible actress. This poor woman has been through enough.
|by Anonymous||reply 152||May 13, 2023 2:11 AM|
Please, she’ll be fine.
|by Anonymous||reply 153||May 13, 2023 2:14 AM|
I agree with the posters saying that she is absolutely wonderful in Vertigo. She was perfect for the part, and film critics and historians agree. Kim also seems like a lovely and sensitive soul in the interviews she has given for TCM over the years. Kindly fuck off, OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 154||May 13, 2023 2:26 AM|
Bipolar people do seem lovely and sensitive souls generally. Until they lose their shit.
|by Anonymous||reply 155||May 13, 2023 2:29 AM|
"The general opinion seemed to be that he was too old for the part."
It's true, some things are only forgivable in the young, like drifting around refusing to get a real job or to commit to anything. And Holden looked about 50, even if he was officially 38, and that's just too damn old for a person to be bumming around and seducing girls just out of high school.
|by Anonymous||reply 156||May 13, 2023 3:03 AM|
R145 thank you for the link. Just finished watching it. Actresses were a lot fatter in the 50s. Novak is much thicker than the actresses of today. Her arms, waist, and hips are a lot bigger.
|by Anonymous||reply 157||May 13, 2023 4:48 AM|
She had a great body.
|by Anonymous||reply 158||May 13, 2023 1:04 PM|
Melanie Griffith looks older than Tippi Hedren. I agree with the poster who said that William Holden looked a solid 50 in picnic. Kim was so thick, no wonder she still alive, she's built like a truck. I prefer elfin celluloid princesses like Pier Angeli and Natalie Wood, but they tend to have the life span of a dragonfly. I wouldn't be surprised if Kim outlived me, and I'm only 52 (looking 41)
|by Anonymous||reply 159||May 13, 2023 1:18 PM|
Good Lord, R159, Novak was never *fat*, never obese, she was just a big, heavy-boned, man-jawed, solid, muscular, healthy girl! Probably physically healthier than those "elfin" types who spend their youth living on coffee and cigarettes.
You don't have to say that a someone who looked like a strapping Polish farm girl is beautiful, but talking like any female who weighs more than 90 pounds is going to drop dead of an obesity-related heart attack is ludicrous.
|by Anonymous||reply 160||May 13, 2023 5:59 PM|
Grace Kelly could have played Madeline/Judy. She was a very good actress and was terrific in THE COUNTRY GIRL.
|by Anonymous||reply 161||May 13, 2023 8:47 PM|
Grace Kelly was laughable bad in "The Country Gilr".
|by Anonymous||reply 162||May 13, 2023 10:55 PM|
R157 no one is saying she is fat. She is a lot bigger than the actresses of today. She is a normal weight but she could never get away with her body type for a starlet today. I think she had a good body.
|by Anonymous||reply 163||May 13, 2023 11:14 PM|
She looks to be a size 8 or 10. Today you are expected to be a size 4.
|by Anonymous||reply 164||May 13, 2023 11:16 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 165||May 13, 2023 11:27 PM|
The word is bovine.
|by Anonymous||reply 166||May 13, 2023 11:27 PM|
OMG EXACTLY. SHE'S BOVINE
|by Anonymous||reply 167||May 13, 2023 11:29 PM|
How did she get away with the extra weight? All the babes who went to Hollywood were told almost immediately to slim down to about 10-15 pounds under weight.
|by Anonymous||reply 168||May 14, 2023 12:04 AM|
Marilyn was bovine too. They were allowed to be fatter in the 50s. Women were supposed to have curves.
|by Anonymous||reply 169||May 14, 2023 12:23 AM|
The men were getting hard-ons for Marilyn Monroe, not Audrey Hepburn.
|by Anonymous||reply 170||May 14, 2023 12:27 AM|
Rita put on weight when she did Miss Sadie Thompson. I guess to look more blowsy.
|by Anonymous||reply 171||May 14, 2023 12:33 AM|
[quote] Novak was replaced after a "riding accident" by Deborah Kerr.
Right by Kerr? Luckily she wasn't hurt as well.
|by Anonymous||reply 172||May 14, 2023 12:33 AM|
Mitzi claimed to have bigger breasts than Marilyn but I'm not sure.
|by Anonymous||reply 173||May 14, 2023 12:35 AM|
Novak was about the only costar Holden didn't try to bed. He found her FAT. He liked Audrey.
|by Anonymous||reply 174||May 14, 2023 12:38 AM|
Rita, Mitzi and Marilyn were toned from dancing and or exercising. Not Kim.
|by Anonymous||reply 175||May 14, 2023 12:47 AM|
Did Kim ever dance? Not so much in Pal Joey.
|by Anonymous||reply 176||May 14, 2023 12:48 AM|
Ah yes Moonglow in Picnic. But that is more moving than dancing.
|by Anonymous||reply 177||May 14, 2023 12:49 AM|
Just shows how we all see things differently. I thought Holden was sex-on-a-stick in Picnic.
|by Anonymous||reply 178||May 14, 2023 12:58 AM|
Vivian Vance would have been perfect as Judy/Madeleine…
|by Anonymous||reply 179||May 14, 2023 1:13 AM|
I'm so glad we have Novak rather than Miles, for whom Hitchcock intended the role(s), in Vertigo. All of Novak's strengths and limitations lined up to make her ideal for the film. Stewart is another story. If it's a fever dream of late-middle-aged obsession, Stewart acquits himself fine.
|by Anonymous||reply 180||May 14, 2023 1:29 AM|
[quote] no one is saying she is fat. She is a lot bigger than the actresses of today. She is a normal weight but she could never get away with her body type for a starlet today. I think she had a good body.
She's tiny. I stood next to her. Probably even smaller in the 50's. Delightful lady, very sweet.
|by Anonymous||reply 181||May 14, 2023 1:52 AM|
OP, she was not the biggest box office draw of the 50s.
|by Anonymous||reply 182||May 14, 2023 2:01 AM|
She claimed to have been 5'6" so not tiny for those days. Surely she's shrunk over the decades.
|by Anonymous||reply 183||May 14, 2023 2:05 AM|
[quote] Did Kim ever dance? Not so much in Pal Joey.
I'm not sure that shuffle Nokak does towards Hall is dancing. As r177 says, it's more moving.
You can see when Madge claps that she's a full-figured woman.
|by Anonymous||reply 184||May 14, 2023 2:13 AM|
ooops. Nokak - Novak
|by Anonymous||reply 185||May 14, 2023 2:13 AM|
Now she looks like Terrence and Philip from South Park
|by Anonymous||reply 186||May 14, 2023 2:19 AM|
Kim Novak was mysterious. That was her ace. Beautiful, smoky voice, alluring, and mysterious. She's actually very good in Vertigo, exactly right. Vera Miles wouldn't have made the movie any better.
But that quality fell away with age, as it always does. Kim could not play characters.
P.S. I like The Mirror Crack'd, for Elizabeth Taylor, again, exactly right (the aging actress who "plays" her scenes over and over). (trembling, terrified) —"The COFFEE..." She's great. Angela Lansbury, post Mrs. Lovett, was wasted here.
|by Anonymous||reply 187||May 14, 2023 2:20 AM|
Hitchcock blamed Stewart's aging appearance for the failure of Vertigo, not Kim Novak. Notably, Vertigo is now at the top of most "greatest films ever" lists, so Kim Novak must be considered pretty successful in it.
|by Anonymous||reply 188||May 14, 2023 2:25 AM|
[quote]Kim Novak was mysterious.
She was vacant which read as mysterious.
|by Anonymous||reply 189||May 14, 2023 2:30 AM|
But that's all you need in the movies.
|by Anonymous||reply 190||May 14, 2023 2:35 AM|
You need more than that, r190. Kim could get away with it because of her beauty.
|by Anonymous||reply 191||May 14, 2023 2:39 AM|
Someone post that damn 1956 appearance on What's My Line?!
|by Anonymous||reply 192||May 14, 2023 4:19 AM|
What is my line
|by Anonymous||reply 193||May 14, 2023 4:50 AM|
Never found her beautiful. Looked like a hard faced hooker.
|by Anonymous||reply 194||May 14, 2023 5:26 AM|
She evokes Jean Harlow and her other 1930s divas in that WML clip. How can anyone watching that not see how gorgeous she was in her prime?
|by Anonymous||reply 195||May 14, 2023 1:09 PM|
She had a mysterious quality that worked for Vertigo just as her naiveity and awkwardness worked in Picnic. She did not transition well into character roles and she lacked the kind of distinct personality that stars of older Hollywood could bank on well into the 70s.
|by Anonymous||reply 196||May 14, 2023 1:42 PM|
Kim Novak was a movie star with a big box office draw. That was what she was hired for, not so much for her thespian skills. Her looks got her far, and with training and a good director, she was a capable actress.
Her peak years were probably 1955 to 1958. And with Harry Cohn dead in 1958, Novak lost her Queen Bee status at Columbia, which spurred her career decline in the 1960s. By 1965, she had semi-retired from showbiz, popping up occasionally to do crappy movies and tv shows.
Even though Novak starred in the remake of "Of Human Bondage," I don't think she was ever invested in herself to being the next Bette Davis.
|by Anonymous||reply 197||May 14, 2023 3:29 PM|
I watched about 30 minutes of Picnic last night. Ugh.
|by Anonymous||reply 198||May 17, 2023 12:09 AM|
Roz steals Picnic. You should have hung on just for her.
|by Anonymous||reply 199||May 17, 2023 12:18 AM|
Kim Novak is also excellent as Molly in "The Man With the Golden Arm" (1955) playing a cigarette girl with a heart of gold. What is surprising is that Otto Preminger directed that one and you would think that he would have tore Novak to pieces. But she is completely real and believable in the part. Novak was good at playing unsophisticated, beautiful but insecure working class women. That was because that was basically what she was. She said in an interview that she didn't really act like another person but opened up herself to the role. Hence she is believable was Judy the waitress in "Vertigo" but weirdly artificial and unreal (if ethereally beautiful and mysterious) as Madeleine. It works because we learn that (SPOILER) Madeleine was never a real person. She is also good as an unhappy suburban wife in "Strangers When We Meet".
She could be good in the right role.
|by Anonymous||reply 200||May 17, 2023 12:18 AM|
Roz is a ham in "Picnic". Worst thing in the film.
|by Anonymous||reply 201||May 17, 2023 12:20 AM|
Her first film, Pushover, she made a very effective and sultry debut.
|by Anonymous||reply 202||May 17, 2023 12:25 AM|
I just watched Bell Book and Candle last night and thought she was perfection. Also great in Vertigo. Like Natalie Wood she's not a great actress nor is she a terrible actress. But she's never boring on screen.
|by Anonymous||reply 203||May 17, 2023 12:35 AM|
1958/59 was her peak--4 films in which she's perfectly cast and she delivers in all of them--Vertigo, Bell book and Candle, Middle of the Night and Strangers when We Meet.
|by Anonymous||reply 204||May 17, 2023 12:47 AM|
Wood was a bit more skilled as an atress.
|by Anonymous||reply 205||May 17, 2023 1:10 AM|
Well, thank you OP for explaining that to us. Now we know.
|by Anonymous||reply 206||May 17, 2023 1:12 AM|
She was very sweet in that interview with Robert Osborne on TCM a few years back.
|by Anonymous||reply 207||May 17, 2023 2:19 AM|
"Like Natalie Wood she's not a great actress nor is she a terrible actress. But she's never boring on screen."
She could be genuinely terrible, "The Legend of Lylah Clare" is considered a camp classic for a reason! Truly a film that only a Datalounger could appreciate.
We don't see too many actors like her any more, someone who was practically pulled off the street because they were photogenic, and shoved in front of the camera without any regard for whether they could act or notm that happened in the Studio Era but not now. Perhaps the closest modern equivalent is Charlize Therone, who started out as just another photogenic blonde... but Charlize buckled down and learn to *act* in a way that Novak never did. Novak never seemed to get serious about acting, she was good in some roles but had as little range as an actor can have.
|by Anonymous||reply 208||May 17, 2023 2:44 AM|
The TCM interview was phenomenal. She really opened up as it went along and showed all her vulnerabilities to Osborn who was the master interviewer with the Old Hollywood stars who trusted him.
|by Anonymous||reply 209||May 17, 2023 2:45 AM|
Novak really didn't need range. She had charisma!
|by Anonymous||reply 210||May 17, 2023 2:46 AM|
Ever since someone said she was born a male I can't unsee it.
|by Anonymous||reply 211||May 17, 2023 3:48 AM|
I didn't get a pass because of my damn classy good looks.
|by Anonymous||reply 212||May 17, 2023 3:59 AM|
Could Marilyn had done any of Novak's best known roles?
Supposedly, Marilyn was first choice of Wilder to star in "kiss me stupid"... by that time she had passed away.Then (allegedly) jayne mansfield was to have done the role but she couldn't because she was pregnant with Mariska Hargitay? (Find it hard to believe that Mansfield was anyone's choice to star in the film since besides her nude film promises promises the year before, she was well into her B and C level has been status in films for a few years), and Novak starred instead..
the film was considered "indecent" and a example of Wilder's decline... It did make a profit though...
|by Anonymous||reply 213||May 17, 2023 8:15 PM|
"Could Marilyn had done any of Novak's best known roles?"
Actually, she could have been absolutely stellar in "Vertigo"! She would have knocked the role of the slutty shopgirl who pretends to be an ethereal rich lady out of the park, her vulnerability and beauty would have made the film breathtaking! But, she was a complete pain in the ass to work with by then, and Hitchcock wasn't putting up with that level of unprofessionalism on his set.
So, he cast an actress who nailed the role, AND who showed up on time. Showing up hours late for work has consequences, an actor who does that isn't going to be offered some roles.
|by Anonymous||reply 214||May 17, 2023 8:21 PM|
[quote] as little range as an actor can have.
And exactly what do you mean by that ?
|by Anonymous||reply 215||May 17, 2023 8:28 PM|
I'm just gonna throw this great quote from one of the Harry-and-Meghan threads in here:
"...A remake of Vertigo, but about an obsessed British Redhead who tries to turn his wife into his tragic mother..."
|by Anonymous||reply 216||May 17, 2023 8:31 PM|
She was terrific in Run Lola Run.
|by Anonymous||reply 217||May 17, 2023 8:35 PM|
Marilyn would have been ludicrous as Madeline, she was only good at playing dumb blonde whore and slutty schizo saloon whore. Natalie Wood is Simone Signoret compared to Novak. I really can't see Novak coming anywhere near Wood in her great tragic parts. Hitchcok certainly didn't cast Novak in Vertigo because of her professionalism, he didn't cast her at all in fact, he loathed her performance and said that he lost interest in the movie the minute she was cast.
|by Anonymous||reply 218||May 17, 2023 8:36 PM|
Marilyn in a Kim role.? I'm not seeing this. Marilyn over sexualized her roles. She delivered her lines with a mouth posed for cock sucking. Kim was subtly steamy.
|by Anonymous||reply 219||May 17, 2023 8:38 PM|
If Kim had played Madeline and Marilyn had played Judy, the movie would be better. It would be like the love,child of Bunuel and Lynch
|by Anonymous||reply 220||May 17, 2023 8:45 PM|
Poor Marilyn. What a slag. Zero dignity. Jayne Mansfield at least was in on the joke.
|by Anonymous||reply 221||May 17, 2023 8:49 PM|
Diana Dors was the real thing. Jayne Mansfield was an undignified harlot compared to Diana
|by Anonymous||reply 222||May 17, 2023 8:52 PM|
[quote] Only lezzies like Gardner
|by Anonymous||reply 223||May 17, 2023 8:52 PM|
Mamie Van Doren made Diana Dors seem like a fish wife. A FISHWIFE
|by Anonymous||reply 224||May 17, 2023 8:53 PM|
Whores. All of them.
|by Anonymous||reply 225||May 17, 2023 8:55 PM|
[quote]Stewart was far too old and sexless. He admitted himself when he saw the rushes that he was way past romantic roles like this, and they had to work really hard to make him look young enough to get it up for a highly sensual woman
Jimmy Stewart was usually sexless - young or old. Casting dumpy guys in movies where a beautiful woman is interested in them is for the DUMPY GUYS IN THE AUDIENCE. Average Joe loves to see Jack Lemmon being pursued by Catherine Deneuve (The April Fools) or James Stewart having Grace Kelly wanting him (Rear Window), and so on. It's their fantasy come true.
|by Anonymous||reply 226||May 17, 2023 8:59 PM|
"Marilyn would have been ludicrous as Madeline, she was only good at playing dumb blonde whore and slutty schizo saloon whore."
Of course Marilyn would have been fabulous in the "Judy" half of "Vertigo", of course she could be great as the slutty, lonely, low-rent, abandoned shopgirl, who gets involved in an abusive relationship with a crazy man. Nobody could doubt that. But IMHO she also could have been great as the will-o-the-wisp Madeline, IF she'd been willing to stop wiggling for once, and just rely on her beauty and vulnerability. Madeline was meant to be lovely and fragile, Marilyn was lovely and fragile, it could have worked IF Marilyn was willing to buckle down and work like every other actor in Hollywood.
But she wasn't willing, she let her insecurities call the shots till the end, and they told her that it was okay to show up hours late and staggering from champagne and pills. I presume that's why she never made a Hitchcock film, Hitchcock expected everyone on his sets to act like a growup and a professional.
|by Anonymous||reply 227||May 17, 2023 9:00 PM|
"Casting dumpy guys in movies where a beautiful woman is interested in them is for the DUMPY GUYS IN THE AUDIENCE."
True 99% of the time, but not in "Vertigo", where he and the much younger woman are drawn together by a toxic web of guilt, deception, and dysfunction. There's never a hint that she's attracted by his looks.
|by Anonymous||reply 228||May 17, 2023 9:02 PM|
^ Notice I mention Rear Window, not Vertigo, R228.
|by Anonymous||reply 229||May 17, 2023 9:07 PM|
Hollywood had no love for British sex bomb Christine Norden?
|by Anonymous||reply 230||May 17, 2023 9:18 PM|
Yes, R229, and notice I didn't defend "Rear Window"'. Or "Bell, Book, and Candle".
Because 99% of movies where an old schlub nails a young hottie are, as I said, bullshit made for the schlubby old guys.
|by Anonymous||reply 231||May 17, 2023 9:23 PM|
Christine Norden wasn't a Kim Novak type. She danced and sang and seemed to prefer the stage. She did appear in a few Hollywood films though, one with Joan.
[Quote]After appearing in ten films within five years, Norden left Britain for America in 1952, where she settled in New York and married her third husband, US Air Force sergeant Mitchell Dodge. She went on to become an American citizen in 1960, starring on Broadway in the musical Tenderloin at around the same time. She also caused a sensation in 1967, when she became the first actress to appear topless on Broadway, in the comedy Scuba Duba.
|by Anonymous||reply 232||May 17, 2023 9:30 PM|
I wish Hitchcock had used Sabrina.
|by Anonymous||reply 233||May 17, 2023 9:42 PM|
Never heard of her. I’m into Vera Louise Gorman-Novak
|by Anonymous||reply 234||May 17, 2023 9:45 PM|
[quote]starring on Broadway in the musical Tenderloin
|by Anonymous||reply 235||May 17, 2023 9:48 PM|
guest of honor
|by Anonymous||reply 236||May 17, 2023 9:52 PM|
[quote] She could be genuinely terrible, "The Legend of Lylah Clare" is considered a camp classic for a reason!
That's an unfair statement. Everyone and everything in Lylah Clare is completely over the top. I mean, Ernest Borgnine? And don't get me started with the "symbolism" in that movie. I think she actually met the requirements of a campy part in a campy movie for Lylah Clare. Had she played it down she would have looked like a somnanbulist.
|by Anonymous||reply 237||May 17, 2023 10:18 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 238||May 17, 2023 10:30 PM|
She slept with Harvey Weinstein’s great grandfather . Hollywood tradition
|by Anonymous||reply 239||May 17, 2023 10:36 PM|
Hitchcock was on Marilyn's list of approved directors on her contract.....I wonder if he had any say so on this matter?
|by Anonymous||reply 240||May 18, 2023 12:36 AM|
I thought Kim nailed the cockney waitress perfectly in Of Human Bondage. Outside of that character I don't think she ever played that far out of herself in any other role. I doubt Marilyn could have done as well in that part in a million years.
|by Anonymous||reply 241||May 18, 2023 7:37 AM|
Has anyone seen The Man with the Golden Arm (1955) about a drug addict named Frankie Machine played by Sinatra? Novak had a serious role as the "good woman" who saves him. She was in way over her head and it was a thankless role. I much preferred his crazy faking it crimple played by Eleanor Parker.
|by Anonymous||reply 242||May 18, 2023 1:33 PM|
^ his crazy faking it crimple WIFE played by Eleanor Parker.
|by Anonymous||reply 243||May 18, 2023 1:34 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 244||May 18, 2023 1:35 PM|
So all the Kim supporters say that she was acting poorly in every movie on purpose, because the character she was playing was not an actress, and therefore was a superior actress ? No, she was wooden and stiff as a board because she was a poor actress with very minimal talent and no range
|by Anonymous||reply 245||May 18, 2023 1:51 PM|
I'm fascinated by the idea of Marilyn in Vertigo. I think she would've been excellent.
|by Anonymous||reply 246||May 18, 2023 3:12 PM|
Jimmy Stewart for me, was the weakest link in all of his Hitchcock movies. Too bad that Gregory Peck wasn’t available for any of them.
|by Anonymous||reply 247||May 18, 2023 3:28 PM|
I'm glad it wasn't Vera Miles in Vertigo. Even though she was a competent actress, she wasn't ethereal. I think Kim Novak was a perfect choice for the role, or roles.
|by Anonymous||reply 248||May 18, 2023 3:35 PM|
Crimple = a medical condition invented by Apple
|by Anonymous||reply 249||May 18, 2023 4:36 PM|
Vera Miles lacked charisma.
|by Anonymous||reply 250||May 18, 2023 4:53 PM|
"So all the Kim supporters say that she was acting poorly in every movie on purpose, because the character she was playing was not an actress, and therefore was a superior actress ?"
No, just that her extremely limited abilities worked really well in a few movies. She was perfect in "Vertigo", which is like a stopped clock being spot-on twice a day.
|by Anonymous||reply 251||May 18, 2023 5:27 PM|
Apparently, after Vera Miles dropped out of Vertigo, Hitch considered Lana Turner, who was close to 40 but still headlining moneymaking films. Turner was well aware of this and demanded $$$. Hitch balked and went with the less expensive Novak. Lana was another beautiful blonde with limited acting skills who made things work to her advantage.
Novak, already a big star, was on loan from Columbia at her usual salary of $1,250 a week. She went on strike and refused to show up for work. Harry Cohn put her on suspension, but Kim hired a team of agents who renegotiated a new contract worthy of a star, at $3,000 a week.
|by Anonymous||reply 252||May 18, 2023 5:34 PM|
I'm the one who thinks Marilyn might have been utterly amazing in "Vertigo"... and I'm SO glad that Lana Turner passed! She really was a terrible actress, worse than Novak, who could at least be real on occasion, and who was damn good in this one movie. Turner was utterly artificial, she looked artificial and her acting was pure Studio Coaching for Starlets. She never brought any real feeling to the screen, just a fair amount of glamour and some shallow sensuality.
The female role in "Vertigo" requires vulnerability above all. Novak brought serious vulnerability, Marilyn could have brought even more, and Turner never had a vulnerable moment in her life.
|by Anonymous||reply 253||May 18, 2023 5:57 PM|
Who would Kim Novak be today?
|by Anonymous||reply 254||May 18, 2023 6:06 PM|
I thought Lana was serviceable In GREEN DOLPHIN STREET, THE BAD AND THE BEAUTIFUL & PEYTON PLACE. She was kind of okay in everything else. Most of her films were drivel. IMITATION OF LIFE is a favorite of mine, but she was not great in it. Her scenes when Annie died were horrible. Sirk didn’t rein her in like he should have.
|by Anonymous||reply 255||May 18, 2023 7:07 PM|
Wilder should've stopped while he was ahead, like Tarantino allegedly plans to do.
|by Anonymous||reply 256||May 18, 2023 9:25 PM|
Lana Turner was a SUPERSTAR and a very enjoyable performer. No one gives glamour like Lana. You knew exactly who she was and she didn't pretend to be anything else; A doll. A broad. Str8 guys wanted to fuck her, and gay guys wanted to be her. Gotta love Lana
|by Anonymous||reply 257||May 18, 2023 9:41 PM|
Marilyn would never have played Madeline. Stop this nonsense.
|by Anonymous||reply 258||May 18, 2023 9:43 PM|
The one film in which Marilyn ALMOST plays a character would be BUS STOP. You can ALMOST see the Judy part of VERTIGO Marilyn might have pulled off in her Cherie.
|by Anonymous||reply 259||May 18, 2023 9:50 PM|
Maybe Marilyn could have played Midge…
|by Anonymous||reply 260||May 18, 2023 10:37 PM|
Marilyn could have played Blanche Dubois (you can see that in don't bother to knock) , Margo Channing (she had the acting chops as per the misfits) , Maggie the cat (watch out for her dixie drawl), and Deanie Loomis ( she was borderline)
|by Anonymous||reply 261||May 18, 2023 11:02 PM|
But the "real" Marilyn wasn't the dumb blonde Sugar Cane; the real Marilyn was Roslyn in The Misfits - a somber, though sometimes charming, drifter having a hard time finding meaning in life. So, she was a convincing actress.
|by Anonymous||reply 262||May 18, 2023 11:13 PM|
I hated her accent in BUS STOP.
|by Anonymous||reply 263||May 18, 2023 11:13 PM|
Marilyn would've hit it out of the ballpark in "The Nun's Story," "The King and I," and "I Want to Live!"
|by Anonymous||reply 264||May 18, 2023 11:16 PM|
R254 Margot Robbie. Somehow pretty but hard faced and insecure, pulled out of nowhere, it girl of Hollywood for a hot 5 minutes, gone tomorrow
|by Anonymous||reply 265||May 18, 2023 11:19 PM|
I'm off this thread. Too much Marilyn fantasy.
|by Anonymous||reply 266||May 18, 2023 11:20 PM|
Marilyn would have knocked the socks off "the night of the iguana", "whatever happened to Baby Jane", " the roman spring of Mrs Stone" and even "Rosemary's baby" as Minnie Castevet
|by Anonymous||reply 267||May 18, 2023 11:23 PM|
to R250 -
|by Anonymous||reply 268||May 18, 2023 11:26 PM|
Kim and Bridget Bardot. They were very similar. Sexy, pretty girls dolled up like movie stars but incapable of acting except in that one role
|by Anonymous||reply 269||May 18, 2023 11:39 PM|
Now, Bardot is another one who mystifies me. And the more I read about her offscreen personality, I can't with her, I just can't...
|by Anonymous||reply 270||May 19, 2023 12:24 AM|
[Quote]But the "real" Marilyn wasn't the dumb blonde
|by Anonymous||reply 271||May 19, 2023 12:34 AM|
IN 1954 for her second role, Columbia tried Kim out in a dumb blonde MM type character in Phftt which starred Judy Holliday and Jack Lemmon. She's not bad, but glad Columbia didn't make her into an MM clone. Best part of this scene is near end when the Chicago tough girl side of Novak comes out.
|by Anonymous||reply 272||May 19, 2023 12:52 AM|
Bardot always looked like she put on sexy clothes without bathing.
|by Anonymous||reply 273||May 19, 2023 12:56 AM|
This is surprisingly good...
|by Anonymous||reply 274||May 19, 2023 6:15 AM|
Bardot is french. She DID put on sexy clothes without bathing. They don't have bathrooms/Shower rooms. There's a shared loo on each floor generally. They use the kitchen sink or a tub as a bathing spot.
|by Anonymous||reply 275||May 19, 2023 12:22 PM|
Bardot is seemingly almost forgotten outside of France, where she a polarizing figure based on her politics....
In her heyday in Europe, she was truly the closest rival to Marilyn's worldwide idolatry and fame (forget about novak, mansfield, and whoever else)....
What "hurt" Bardot is she never went hollywood, was content (or lazy) to be a European sex symbol, actress and sensation. She made alot of films, but her career was short on purpose by her because she didn't want the world to see has a 40 year old on screen.
Besides Bardot in europe, Marilyn truly only had one rival in terms of fame and interest throughout the world and that was Elizabeth Taylor...........
|by Anonymous||reply 276||May 19, 2023 12:30 PM|
Bardot is a crazy old cat lady. An antisemite and racist. Just like her buddy Alain Delon.
|by Anonymous||reply 277||May 19, 2023 12:37 PM|
I'm old enough to have seen that Kim Novak on TV on Hollywood and the Stars when it was first shown. Great mini-documentary that catches her just as she decides she's had enough of Hollywood and transitions to a happier private life in serene Carmel, as well as a lovely retrospective of her beginnings in Chicago and the start of her career. All Kim fans should watch it.
|by Anonymous||reply 278||May 19, 2023 12:42 PM|
I can only imagine the pressure that she was under…can’t blame her at all for walking away…too bad Marilyn didn’t have the gumption to do the same thing.
|by Anonymous||reply 279||May 19, 2023 12:54 PM|
Bardot has the face that she deserves.
|by Anonymous||reply 280||May 19, 2023 1:04 PM|
her snatch was tight
|by Anonymous||reply 281||May 19, 2023 1:06 PM|
Bardot looks like she smells like cat piss and French cigarettes.
|by Anonymous||reply 282||May 19, 2023 1:07 PM|
Bardot was rumored to have slept with Jimi Hendrix. Then she came out against interracial dating.
What did he do to her?
|by Anonymous||reply 283||May 19, 2023 4:30 PM|
R283, did she come out against interracial dating in the 1960s, or as the old crank she became decades later?
Because when an older person suddenly switches from liberal to paranoid conservative, that is IMHO a sign of the early stages of Dementia.
|by Anonymous||reply 284||May 19, 2023 4:43 PM|
Bardot is looney but she radiated the kind of charisma in her movies that few came close to. She was also a pretty good actress, more expressive than Kim Novak and many of her French contemporaries. She's spectacular in La Verité.
|by Anonymous||reply 285||May 19, 2023 5:54 PM|
Bardot is no Sophia Loren.
|by Anonymous||reply 286||May 19, 2023 5:56 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 287||May 19, 2023 6:07 PM|
Sophia and Brigitte = apples and oranges.
|by Anonymous||reply 288||May 19, 2023 6:08 PM|
Sophia is not the insecure narcissist like Bridgette
|by Anonymous||reply 289||May 19, 2023 6:11 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 290||May 19, 2023 6:14 PM|
Bardot like most European actresses wasn't interested in Hollywood. Most carried out a hit and run for cash. It was not a shortcoming. It was a preference.
|by Anonymous||reply 291||May 19, 2023 7:41 PM|
Many big name European stars came out to Hollywood to do pictures only to find themselves bored with the entire process. In Europe, you shoot a scene, then everybody picks up a chair, a prop, a light package, etc., and takes it to the next locale to shoot the next scene. It goes by quick and easy. In the US, you shoot a scene, then you wait for a IATSE stagehand to unplug the lights, another guy to roll up the cables and load them into a case, and yet another guy to push the case. The other guy comes back to unload the case and unroll the cables, then that other stagehand comes back to plug everything back in. This just one small part of a bigger, bureaucratic production machine. Imagine all the divisions of labor involved in a union prodcution. It's an extremely time consuming process and the actor waits and waits and waits.
|by Anonymous||reply 292||May 19, 2023 8:25 PM|
Why do so many young people (I assume you're under 100, R292) call movies "pictures," like they were born in 1908?
|by Anonymous||reply 293||May 19, 2023 8:33 PM|
R54 Vera Miles, a "pudgy little thing". People here are fucking weird.
I like Kim in Bell, Book and Candle. I must, because I've seen it about 10 times in my life. Jack Lemmon is wasted in a nothing part in it, though.
A good movie she did was Strangers When We Meet, with Kirk Douglas (and Ernie Kovaks, Barbara Rush, Walter Matthau). I liked it also because it was filmed all over LA in 1959 or 60. Not a great film but an enjoyable love story.
|by Anonymous||reply 294||May 19, 2023 8:50 PM|
There are announcements from around 1956 that Hitch was in talks with Lana Turner for Vertigo. Lana Turner! No.
|by Anonymous||reply 295||May 19, 2023 8:52 PM|
She was named after Kim Kardashian.
|by Anonymous||reply 296||May 19, 2023 9:55 PM|
Back to Novak R274's link is really good. Taking aside the sometimes purple prose of the narration (?Joseph Cotten), there's more to her than I expected. her identification with Madge from Picnic, helps explain her her romatic choices and her desire for something different from Hollywood. It's nice that she was still connected to her family in Chicago, despite what had happened n her life otherwise.
|by Anonymous||reply 297||May 19, 2023 11:30 PM|
Jimmy Stewart wasn't a sex god but he was very attractive to women, and men identified with him (not because he was not sexy or attractive, because he acted like an everyman). I find him good looking, I guess some of you don't.
|by Anonymous||reply 298||May 19, 2023 11:35 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 299||May 19, 2023 11:37 PM|
Well, r298, he scored with tons of chicks.
|by Anonymous||reply 300||May 19, 2023 11:38 PM|
R300 He actually did, he was known as a ladies' man. Kirk Doouglas wrote in his autobiography about how he was with some woman at a party and Jimmy Stewart came along and she went off with Stewart.
|by Anonymous||reply 301||May 19, 2023 11:40 PM|
Norma Shearer, Ginger Rogers, Olivia De Havilland, Marlene Dietrich, Lana Turner, Loretta Young were some of Stewart's girlfriends.
|by Anonymous||reply 302||May 19, 2023 11:43 PM|
[quote]He actually did,
Yes, r301, I know.
|by Anonymous||reply 303||May 19, 2023 11:48 PM|
R303 I wasn't trying to prove it to you. I was elaborating. Maybe not everyone here knows what you know.
|by Anonymous||reply 304||May 19, 2023 11:51 PM|
[quote] Why do so many young people (I assume you're under 100, [R292]) call movies "pictures," like they were born in 1908?
People who work in the movie industry frequently call theatrical movies "pictures" or "shows". Most people outside the industry would never refer to The Godfather or Star Wars as a show.
|by Anonymous||reply 305||May 20, 2023 12:01 AM|
My parents (not born in 1908) called movies pictures, or would say, "We're going to a show." Or "the show."
|by Anonymous||reply 306||May 20, 2023 12:03 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 307||May 20, 2023 12:06 AM|
I call them...flickers.
|by Anonymous||reply 308||May 20, 2023 12:14 AM|
The Last Picture Show
|by Anonymous||reply 309||May 20, 2023 12:21 AM|
R279 wrote: I can only imagine the pressure that she was under…can’t blame her at all for walking away…too bad Marilyn didn’t have the gumption to do the same thing.
I don't think MM would have ever walked away from Hollywood. Stardom was what she aspired to. Kim fell into movie acting as a fluke. She aspired to be a painter and Hollywood turned out to be a big detour for her. She happened to become a star and made a lot of money and she eventually was able to afford to walk away and live a life first in Big Sur and later with her Verteranarian husband in Oregon, largely devoted to painting and caring for animals, while occasionally doing an acting job, or from early 90s on doing the occasional interview or public appearance to nurture her growing legend as a film star thanks to Vertigo becoming an iconic film.
|by Anonymous||reply 310||May 20, 2023 1:20 AM|
[quote]Jimmy Stewart wasn't a sex god but he was very attractive to women
EVIDENCE? That is besides what gossip columns of yore said. Every man, yes, sexy NOOOOOO.
|by Anonymous||reply 311||May 20, 2023 1:24 AM|
No gay man ever looked twice at bumbling Jimmy Stewart.
|by Anonymous||reply 312||May 20, 2023 1:30 AM|
DL Goddess Arlene Francis often referred to movies "pictures". And Broadway theatre as "the legitimate stage"
|by Anonymous||reply 313||May 20, 2023 2:09 AM|
R313, just shut up and give me my Arpege’…
|by Anonymous||reply 314||May 20, 2023 2:22 AM|
I hope you're gay, r93, because if you are straight, you're stupid.
Kim Novak was blonde, bosomy, and beautiful, with a peaches and cream complexion. Plus, she had an air of helplessness, neediness. Ergo, she was appealing.
|by Anonymous||reply 315||May 20, 2023 2:28 AM|
She put the voom in va-va-voom.
|by Anonymous||reply 316||May 20, 2023 3:58 AM|
Not to William Holden she wasn't.
|by Anonymous||reply 317||May 20, 2023 5:42 AM|
Lana Turner would have been as good a choice as Kim for Vertigo. Now, serious question, what is Kim living on ? She hasn't made a picture since 1980.
|by Anonymous||reply 318||May 20, 2023 8:28 PM|
Her last film was in 1991 not 1980. From 1976 to 2021 she was married to a very successful large animal veteranarian. They lived well. He made money and she must have invested her Hollywood earnings very well. Though a widow at 90 she's still living on her ranch in Oregon.
|by Anonymous||reply 319||May 20, 2023 8:55 PM|
Grace Kelly famously said " I told Kim to take it in the ass only, you have to leave something to be desired, I wasn't cast in "rear window" for nothing. If she hadn't given away her pussy so freely, she would be sitting on my frigging throne right now"
|by Anonymous||reply 320||May 20, 2023 9:21 PM|
Kim also raised Arabians and Thoroughbreds. I don't know how much they go for, but I'm sure it's a nice side hustle.
|by Anonymous||reply 321||May 20, 2023 9:27 PM|
Horse breeding is not very lucrative. Unless you produce Derby winners the overhead is too great. One raises horses for the love of it.
|by Anonymous||reply 322||May 20, 2023 9:59 PM|
R311 Maybe you should do some reading. Stewart was a staright bachelor until age 41 and he was a popular leading man/star. Women loved his guy-next-door personality and he had many, many Hollywood relationships, some of the women were already named.
|by Anonymous||reply 323||May 20, 2023 10:06 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 324||May 20, 2023 10:07 PM|
Stewart had moments where he could be sexy. He had beautiful lips and he could convey a darkness and desperation when he needed to, which is why Hitchcock used him regularly in the 1950s.
|by Anonymous||reply 325||May 20, 2023 11:05 PM|
I thought Stewart's last great performance - and age appropriate role - was as the grizzled pilot in 'The Flight Of The Phoenix'.
|by Anonymous||reply 326||May 20, 2023 11:47 PM|
Some of Stewart's fans supposedly complained after he did Anatomy Of A Murder, one of his best films and performances (Oscar nominated). It was too frank and adult for them. So rather than letting that open up a new career for him as the 60s was dawning, he decided to do mostly westerns and family-friendly films from then on. Flight Of The Phoenix was a bit grittier but still not objectionable to anyone. Also - he made only one war film, post WWII, I think - The Mountain Road.
|by Anonymous||reply 327||May 21, 2023 1:36 AM|
Apparently Kim was so discouraged working with Mike Figgis and by his behavior towards her (Liebestraum, 1991) she decided at that time nothing was worth that and quit acting.
|by Anonymous||reply 328||May 21, 2023 1:47 AM|
Jimmy at @ age 61 at :25
(Without his hairpiece)
|by Anonymous||reply 329||May 21, 2023 2:10 AM|
I thought he was great in "Anatomy of a Murder," much better than in "Vertigo."
|by Anonymous||reply 330||May 21, 2023 2:12 AM|
Well, his role in ANATOMY was not romantic in any way, shape or form.
|by Anonymous||reply 331||May 21, 2023 2:17 AM|
R330 I thought he was great in both.
|by Anonymous||reply 332||May 21, 2023 2:46 AM|
R322 = Matthew Broderick
|by Anonymous||reply 333||May 21, 2023 10:13 AM|
Little known fact about J.Stewart, He lived with Henry Fonda for many years, in a "bachelor pad" the same way Grant and Scott did. There was a lot of talk at that time, and Orson Welles joked that they were either the gayest couple in Hollywood or the two most normal men on earth
|by Anonymous||reply 334||May 21, 2023 10:19 AM|
Tell me you're an eldergay without telling me you're an eldergay
|by Anonymous||reply 335||May 21, 2023 10:21 AM|
Kim Novak has made it very clear that Jimmy Stewart was her favorite leading man. Once quoted as saying that the person she wants to see after she dies was Jimmy.
|by Anonymous||reply 336||May 21, 2023 10:40 AM|
In her long Robert Osborn interview, Kim is very kind and generous about all of her directors and co-stars, even producer Harry Cohn, who she's able to perceive very sympathetically in retrospect. The only person she's hard on is herself. Fascinating and poignant to watch her get more emotional and broken apart as it goes on. With a little extra editing and a few more confessions, a transcript of that interview could have been made into a wonderful autobiography.
|by Anonymous||reply 337||May 21, 2023 12:52 PM|
R337 or anyone know if Novak ever commented on Marilyn before or after her passing?....
I know Loren, Bardot and other female stars, including former "IT GIRL" Clara Bow, adored Marilyn. Taylor did not (her only worldwide rival in fame and attention) adore Marilyn and there has been conflicting comments that Taylor made about Marilyn over the decades...
|by Anonymous||reply 338||May 21, 2023 1:01 PM|
I never really thought of Marilyn and Kim as rivals as movie stars, any more than I would have compared Audrey Hepburn to Elizabeth Taylor. The really big stars of the 50s like Novak, Taylor, Loren, Hepburn, Grace Kelly and MM, were all very individual and specific women and not terribly exchangeable in the roles they played. Not that there weren't dozens of B list and C list starlets who copied all of them.
Lots of you will probably disagree with me.
|by Anonymous||reply 339||May 21, 2023 1:13 PM|
R339.. i would suggest sophia loren was more of a bigger star in the early 60s and throughout the 60's than she was in the 50's? Kelly was only a movie star for a few years before she abdicated.
MM is the only famous movie star of the 50's or 60's for that matter who was universally known by her initials. I don't think any of the other female stars could claim that? Course it might just be because MM it a easy simple moniker...
|by Anonymous||reply 340||May 21, 2023 1:17 PM|
Was Maggie McNamara supposed to be another Audrey Hepburn?
|by Anonymous||reply 341||May 21, 2023 1:41 PM|
R340, BB (Brigitte Bardot)
|by Anonymous||reply 342||May 21, 2023 1:54 PM|
Kim was working on her autobiography in the 90s but a fire occurred at her place and destroyed both hard copy and the computer and she had no back up file. So she decided it wasn't meant to be. Two years ago she did publish through the Butler Museum of American Art a book of her paintings along with some reflections about her life. She said that her autobiography can truly be gleamed by her art. And earlier this year a documentary about Kim appeared on French Television in which she cooperated fully with and did an extensive on camera interview. I believe it's called Hollywood Rebel Kim Novak. I wonder if it will end up on TCM?
|by Anonymous||reply 343||May 21, 2023 1:59 PM|
R342... true bardot could be seen and read in media as BB, But I do not think it was as universal worldwide as Marilyn's MM... Bardot was more or less a european superstar, almost a "art house" star in the united states... and media in the u.s. and hollywood in the u.s. is where it was at during that era...
|by Anonymous||reply 344||May 21, 2023 2:27 PM|
Didn't Kim agree to change her first name from Marilyn because of possible comparisons to Monroe?
R341 I don't know if she was. She happened to be nominated for Best Actress the same year Audrey won. Even though she reminded me of Audrey (when I was a little kid I used to confuse them), she was so American. They came up around the same time but Maggie's career faded quickly, apparently because she couldn't handle Hollywood.
|by Anonymous||reply 345||May 21, 2023 2:53 PM|
Maggie McNamara was married to David Swift (from the sausage-making family) who wrote and/or directed Pollyanna, The Parent Trap, and How To Succed In Business Without Really Trying.
|by Anonymous||reply 346||May 21, 2023 2:59 PM|
[quote]DL Goddess Arlene Francis often referred to movies "pictures".
Arlene Francis was born in 1907
|by Anonymous||reply 347||May 21, 2023 3:01 PM|
R274, That was rather entertaining, but it also comes off as trite. Almost every Hollywood star uses that line about "living by the sea in seclusion" or having a farm somewhere to try and appear humble and down to earth. Also, that BS about her bohemian friends being the only ones who are "authentic" while everyone else is supposedly fake is typical elitist snobbery.
Her busted wig disguise while walking around New York did give me a laugh, though.
|by Anonymous||reply 348||May 21, 2023 3:14 PM|
Bardot was universally known as BB. At the peak of her stardom, she was the biggest star in the world, bigger than Monroe and Taylor even. She was a superstar in Latin America, a top ten hitter in the US, THE biggest star in Europe, everywhere.
|by Anonymous||reply 349||May 21, 2023 3:39 PM|
R349.. sorry but in that era HOLLYWOOD and what one did in the states was where it was at....And Bardot was never a top 10 draw in the united states, as most of her films didn't open to wide release... She was the european Marilyn, But Marilyn was the worldwide Bardot...
And of course most people under the age of 50 or who are not film history fans, do not even know who Bardot is now...
|by Anonymous||reply 350||May 21, 2023 4:52 PM|
Bardot WAS in the top ten hun
|by Anonymous||reply 351||May 21, 2023 4:59 PM|
Bardot was world-famous. Hollywood even made a movie in the 60s called Dear Brigitte where a young kid (Billy Mumy) whose dad is played by Jimmy Stewart, has a precocious crush on her and wants to meet her.
|by Anonymous||reply 352||May 21, 2023 5:04 PM|
yep R352, rub his nose in it !
|by Anonymous||reply 353||May 21, 2023 5:09 PM|
Novak was the american Bardot
|by Anonymous||reply 354||May 21, 2023 5:09 PM|
Kim Novak was signed to Columbia Pictures to rival 20th Century Fox's Marilyn Monroe in popularity, and there was a brief moment in the 1950s when Novak's box office numbers topped Marilyn's. But Marilyn and Kim's onscreen personas were so different that its hard to believe they were ever rivals. Where the Monroe persona was fun, ditzy, sexy, accessible, and warmhearted, the Novak persona was cool, aloof, mysterious, and maybe a bit dangerous because there seemed to be some inner conflict beneath that exterior.
|by Anonymous||reply 355||May 21, 2023 6:04 PM|
I don't see no difference. Big tits and blonde hair
|by Anonymous||reply 356||May 21, 2023 6:06 PM|
R351... you're link makes no mention of Bardot being in the top ten box office draws of "and god created woman".. it just says it was a huge hit in europe and for a time the biggest box office foreign film (until la dolce vita)... that's it!.. that's 1 film!...
R352. no one said that bardot at the time wasn't world famous... But her fame and box office was for the most majority part NOT hollywood success, and hollywood especially then was the world film capital...
R355... looking up the top box office draws year by year in the 1950s. novak was never ahead of monroe in terms of a year's box office? She did do good box office in 1958, but marilyn didn't make a single film that year...IF Novak for a time had bigger box office than Monroe, you also have to consider how many films each made in a time period for that to have happened.. for instance from 1957 to 1962, Novak made 9 films. Monroe only made 4, 5 if you include the unfinished "something's got to give"..
|by Anonymous||reply 357||May 21, 2023 7:37 PM|
Bridgitte and Jimmy, two reactionaries of the worst kind.
|by Anonymous||reply 358||May 21, 2023 7:46 PM|
[quote] Didn't Kim agree to change her first name from Marilyn because of possible comparisons to Monroe?
Yes, she said so herself in a couple of interviews.
|by Anonymous||reply 359||May 21, 2023 7:55 PM|
[qUote]Fascinating and poignant to watch her get more emotional and broken apart as it goes on.
She's bipolar. They all do this. Osborne was masterful at handling her gently.
|by Anonymous||reply 360||May 21, 2023 9:06 PM|
Novak must have invested her film money VERY well, if she's been able to spend most of her adult life painting and raising horses, instead of acting. Actors in the 1950s weren't paid that much, not enough that they could afford to retire, after a few years at the top.
And that's the real reason most actors of that era didn't leave the silver screen, they couldn't afford to. Bette Davis her later years taking any role that paid because she needed the money (mostly for her ungrateful family), and that was typical. Most actors made some money and managed to lose it through extravagance, divorce, bad investment, or being related to succubi (as was Davis), and they had to keep working even if they'd much rather be raising show horses in Oregon. There were only a few who could afford to retire, but who kept at it because their egos told them to.
|by Anonymous||reply 361||May 21, 2023 9:37 PM|
She bought that spectacular cliff house on the 17-mile Drive in Monterey in the 60's, today probably valued at 25M.
|by Anonymous||reply 362||May 21, 2023 9:41 PM|
Tuesday also kind of retired early, did she finally inherit some of the WELD $$$ ?
|by Anonymous||reply 363||May 21, 2023 10:51 PM|
[quote] Novak must have invested her film money VERY well
I don't see Novak being very bright
|by Anonymous||reply 364||May 21, 2023 10:59 PM|
R358 Maybe you should watch the clip at R329 where Jimmy says he believes in strict gun control laws.
|by Anonymous||reply 365||May 21, 2023 11:01 PM|
R261 They didn't make residuals, then - and they didn't make the ridiculous money stars make now. If you adjust for inflation they still made way, way below what's made now. (And they were paid salaries or fees, not percentages as they are today.)
|by Anonymous||reply 366||May 21, 2023 11:05 PM|
^R361 Just agreeing with what you said.
|by Anonymous||reply 367||May 21, 2023 11:07 PM|
r364 Maybe you're right, but maybe her veterinarian husband coached her on investing?
I don't want to hijack a Kim thread, but I found these very interesting outtakes from Something's Got to Give. Laurence Olivier said she had an unconscious resistance to acting. He said she was a "divided person".
|by Anonymous||reply 368||May 21, 2023 11:13 PM|
Well, yeah, tbh I think we've had a million threads on Marilyn., we don't need to make this another one .
|by Anonymous||reply 369||May 21, 2023 11:18 PM|
R357, I don't know about box office but according to wiki, Kim was the #6 top money making star of 1957. The only woman to crack the top ten. The year prior, she came in at #9, two steps below Marilyn. Stats are missing for '58, the year Kim had "Bell, Book, and Candle" and "Vertigo" (which flopped).
In 1957, Kim had "Pal Joey" and "Jeanne Eagels." Marilyn had "The Prince and the Showgirl."
|by Anonymous||reply 370||May 22, 2023 2:05 AM|
"While Vertigo did break even upon its original release, earning $3.2 million in North American distributor rentals against its $2,479,000 cost, it earned significantly less than other Hitchcock productions."
|by Anonymous||reply 371||May 22, 2023 2:10 AM|
R370 here. I fogot to post the link.
|by Anonymous||reply 372||May 22, 2023 4:33 AM|
Marilyn was crazy but she could act a little. Liz taylor could act a little. Natalie Wood could act when well directed. Gene Tierney was a good actress, she could do layers. Vivien Leigh was a genious within a narrow range. Kim Novak couldn't act her way out of a ratpack gangbang
|by Anonymous||reply 373||May 22, 2023 10:25 AM|
R370 Vertigo review from 1958 in The Hollywood Reporter - Jack Moffitt:
|by Anonymous||reply 374||May 22, 2023 8:06 PM|
That critic was someone who "got" Vertigo at the time of release.
One of the parts of the Kim Novak story that impresses me is on the issue of her screen name. She was born Marilyn Novak and when signed to Columbia in 1953 she was open to changing her first name due to Monroe, but absolutely said no to the name Harry Cohn wanted to give her: Kit Marlowe. She thought it was fake and phony and wanted to hold on to Novak. Cohn replied "who ever heard of a Polack glamour girl". Novak said she's Czech,not Polish and besides what does that have to do with anything. Cohn then offered Kit Novak, but Novak suggested Kim as a compromise and she won. It takes a certain amount of guts to stand up to the likes of Harry Cohn.
Years later when she appeared on Falcon Crest, as an inside joke, she played a character called Kit Marlowe. By then she could have fun with such a name.
|by Anonymous||reply 375||May 22, 2023 11:15 PM|
Though Novak is a "Polack" name, there's something very sexy about it.
There were probably millions of American baby girls named Kim in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
|by Anonymous||reply 376||May 22, 2023 11:28 PM|
"Miss Novak has become a fine actress, especially in the latter part of the film where she appears as the love-possessed shop girl. Here, without the support of her ethereal beauty, she does a really fine bit of trouping." -- THR
"Mr. Stewart, as usual, manages to act awfully tense in a casual way, and Miss Novak is really quite amazing in -- well, here is a bit of a hint -- dual roles." -- NYT (Bosley Crowther)
Great reviews for Kim.
|by Anonymous||reply 377||May 22, 2023 11:59 PM|
[quote] Kim Novak couldn't act her way out of a ratpack gangbang
An insensitive comment since she was actually raped at one such occasion. At any rate, she may not have been a great actress but she was spellbinding to watch.
|by Anonymous||reply 378||May 23, 2023 12:50 AM|
the trouble with angels "What's your name? Kim Novak? I like it! Me too, but i'm stuck with Mary Clancy...
|by Anonymous||reply 379||May 23, 2023 2:01 AM|
The trouble with angels. What a delightful movie. Love it
|by Anonymous||reply 380||May 23, 2023 9:48 AM|
Korda wanted to name Vivien leigh " April Morn" ....
|by Anonymous||reply 381||May 23, 2023 11:08 AM|
And Jack Warner wanted to change Bette Davis' name to Bettina Dawes.
|by Anonymous||reply 382||May 23, 2023 1:10 PM|
Anne Shirley first had the stage name, Dawn O'Day.
|by Anonymous||reply 383||May 23, 2023 1:15 PM|
(Then she took the name of her character in the movie of Anne Of Green Gables)
|by Anonymous||reply 384||May 23, 2023 1:15 PM|
Wasn't that true of Jane Powell, too, that her name came from a character she played in her first film?
|by Anonymous||reply 385||May 23, 2023 1:17 PM|
R378 raped by whom?
|by Anonymous||reply 386||May 23, 2023 4:35 PM|
r374 damn, that review pretty much gives away the entire story except for the last scene!
|by Anonymous||reply 387||May 23, 2023 5:56 PM|
was it rape-rape ? there was a saying in Hollywood, " you can never rape an audition, or Kim Novak"
|by Anonymous||reply 388||May 23, 2023 6:08 PM|
One of my favorite pieces Ebert ever wrote.
"Then there is another level, beneath all of the others. Alfred Hitchcock was known as the most controlling of directors, particularly when it came to women. The female characters in his films reflected the same qualities over and over again: They were blond. They were icy and remote. They were imprisoned in costumes that subtly combined fashion with fetishism. They mesmerized the men, who often had physical or psychological handicaps. Sooner or later, every Hitchcock woman was humiliated.
“Vertigo” (1958), which is one of the two or three best films Hitchcock ever made, is the most confessional, dealing directly with the themes that controlled his art. It is *about* how Hitchcock used, feared and tried to control women. He is represented by Scottie (James Stewart), a man with physical and mental weaknesses (back problems, fear of heights), who falls obsessively in love with the image of a woman--and not any woman, but the quintessential Hitchcock woman. When he cannot have her, he finds another woman and tries to mold her, dress her, train her, change her makeup and her hair, until she looks like the woman he desires. He cares nothing about the clay he is shaping; he will gladly sacrifice her on the altar of his dreams."
|by Anonymous||reply 389||May 23, 2023 6:52 PM|
And introducing April Morn as Scarlett O'Hara. Err, no.
|by Anonymous||reply 390||May 23, 2023 7:03 PM|
Korda didn't want Vivien to take the part of Scarlett, " a real life spoilt princess playing a spoilt princess, the public will reject you". Olivier warned her as well " you can't do accents, and you'll just make a fool of yourself".
|by Anonymous||reply 391||May 23, 2023 7:13 PM|
R386 She said she was given a rape drug at a Hollywood function and woke up naked suggesting she had been raped, and she attributed the incident to Tony Curtis.
|by Anonymous||reply 392||May 23, 2023 7:19 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 393||May 23, 2023 7:25 PM|
Lol. Tony Curtis. With his 2 incher, he could have fucked her right in the middle of the "Hollywood function" without her noticing. More likely Giancana and his henchmen, hence the reels that cut her career short and sent her to Big Sur. Marilyn was not so wise, and threatened them with a press conference
|by Anonymous||reply 394||May 23, 2023 7:26 PM|
More likely? OK, hon.
|by Anonymous||reply 395||May 23, 2023 7:57 PM|
I'm dubious when Roger Ebert says Hitchcock's female characters reflected the same qualities over and over again. Before Vertigo, what other Hitchcock women were really like the Maleleine character other than their cool blondness? And maybe "cool blondness" is enough similarity right there but I feel like Ebert is stretching a weak thesis.
|by Anonymous||reply 396||May 23, 2023 9:29 PM|
R386, Miss Novak claims she was raped while in her teens by a group of boys in the backseat of a car.
|by Anonymous||reply 397||May 23, 2023 10:31 PM|
Mentally ill women are always raped. Always. And the vague accused always got away with it. Life is always tragicaly unfair to them. And there is proof. Somewhere. But don't ask them to produce it. Or else you're evil.
|by Anonymous||reply 398||May 24, 2023 10:04 AM|
R398: You're like a bad translation of Freud.
|by Anonymous||reply 399||May 24, 2023 12:19 PM|
Even though Hitchcock, was on Marilyn's list of approved directors, I don't see how the two would have worked together on any project, whether the material/storyline or their personalities... Otto Preminger and Marilyn had issues, I can't imagine how Hitchcock, whose preminger on steroids, would have treated Marilyn...
|by Anonymous||reply 400||May 24, 2023 1:36 PM|
I find it annoying that Kim complains that she was badly treated in Hollywood, that she was not given interesting parts, that she wanted to play a mentally il woman, because, being mentally ill herself, she would have been great, that she was too good for the business. Miss Deepfreeze... you wouldn't pick a bosomy stranger in the streets and put her in an opera for instance. How can she even think that she was qualified to be an actress ? What mentally ill woman did she want to play ? Blanche fucking Dubois ? Is she even aware that they were people around like Vivien Leigh, who were seasoned Shakespearean actors, RADA trained, stage trained ? At least Jane Russell said that her only talent was her chest and she would never have been an actress outside the old studio system, and she was lucky to have been given lots of money to stand pretty in front of a camera
|by Anonymous||reply 401||May 24, 2023 1:59 PM|
Marilyn was not that bad in Niagara, but she needed to movie to be about HER. she didn't do supporting parts very well, and I don't see Hitchock making a movie about a voluptuous whore. Novak was already much too heavy for a Hitchcock blonde
|by Anonymous||reply 402||May 24, 2023 2:03 PM|
Ingrid Bergman, Madeleine Carroll and Doris Day weren't exactly sylphs, r402.
|by Anonymous||reply 403||May 24, 2023 2:16 PM|
[quote] I can't imagine how Hitchcock, whose preminger on steroids, would have treated Marilyn...
Preminger was a bully who abused and terrified everyone on his sets. Actors dreaded him. How was Hitchcock this on steroids?
|by Anonymous||reply 404||May 24, 2023 3:01 PM|
[quote]The female characters in his films reflected the same qualities over and over again: They were blond. They were icy and remote.
Has Ebert seen a lot fo Hitchcock films? Other than Tippi Hedren, this really doesn't describe anyone. Ingrid Bergman was never icy or remote. Neither was Doris Day. Joan Fontaine wasn't icy, even Grace Kelly wasn't icy or remote, really. Medeleine Carroll was warm. Anne Baxter was emotional. Eva Marie Saint doesn't fit the description. And of course there were many other "female characters" who weren't cold or aloof, in HItchcock's films.
|by Anonymous||reply 405||May 24, 2023 11:52 PM|
I agree with you, r405, and it's what I was trying to say at r396. You said it better.
|by Anonymous||reply 406||May 25, 2023 2:29 AM|
R406 Ebert was really off, there. And what about women in HItchcock's films like Theresa Wright in Shadow Of A Doubt? Shirley MacLaine, Jane Wyman, Jessica Tandy, Vera Miles, on and on.
|by Anonymous||reply 407||May 25, 2023 4:04 AM|
"Mentally ill women are always raped. Always."
Gee, ya think that being raped might have something to do with developing mental illness later? Think there, you know, might be a correlation?
|by Anonymous||reply 408||May 25, 2023 6:25 AM|
You can add Margaret Lockwood, Sylvia Sidney, Ruth Roman, Priscilla Lane, Julie Andrews and Karen Black to the list Hitchcock's non-icy non-blondes.
|by Anonymous||reply 409||May 25, 2023 5:50 PM|
R409 And Laraine Day.
|by Anonymous||reply 410||May 25, 2023 10:57 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 411||May 26, 2023 12:42 AM|
Joan was rather blonde and cool if not exactly icy.
|by Anonymous||reply 412||May 26, 2023 1:06 AM|
Madeleine Carroll and Priscilla Lane played unavailable blondes which can be misconstrued as icy by horny straight men.
|by Anonymous||reply 413||May 26, 2023 1:41 AM|
Ingrid Bergman was the greatest of all the Hitchcock actresses.
|by Anonymous||reply 414||May 27, 2023 2:10 AM|
And she has the Oscars to prove it, r414!
|by Anonymous||reply 415||May 27, 2023 2:16 AM|
How about "complex" blondes?
|by Anonymous||reply 416||May 27, 2023 2:17 AM|
Don't forget Tallulah Bankhead in Lifeboat.
|by Anonymous||reply 417||May 27, 2023 2:29 AM|
[quote]The funny part of it is, I'm from the same gutter.
|by Anonymous||reply 418||May 27, 2023 2:44 AM|
Joan Fontaine is the only actress (or actor) to win an Oscar for a performance an Alfred Hitchcock film.
|by Anonymous||reply 419||May 27, 2023 2:50 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 420||May 27, 2023 2:52 AM|
[quote]Preminger was a bully who abused and terrified everyone on his sets. Actors dreaded him.
In a 2012 interview Novak said of Preminger: "He was one of my very favorite directors. I loved Otto Preminger." Preminger enjoyed working with her too: "She was a warm girl with a great, great wish to please people and make a success. , She'd been treated like a nincompoop, but she's really quite shrewd. And I knew she was right for the part."
Eleanor Parker, Jane Fonda, Jimmy Stewart and many other actors also had high praise for Preminger. Actors who hated working with him included: : Tom Tryon; Faye Dunaway; Dyan Cannon; Keir Dullea; and Darren McGavin.
There's an excellent biography of Preminger by Foster Hirsch that offers a very balanced picture of his work with actors.
|by Anonymous||reply 421||May 27, 2023 3:32 AM|
Henry Fonda, who worked with Preminger several times said you don't question John Ford or Otto Preminger.
|by Anonymous||reply 422||May 27, 2023 10:17 AM|