Being Mary Tyler Moore Documentary Sets HBO Premiere Date

Best known for her Emmy-winning work on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and The Dick Van Dyke Show as well as her Oscar-nominated performance in Ordinary People, Moore's Broadway credits included Breakfast at Tiffany's, Whose Life Is It Anyway?, and Sweet Sue. She received a 1980 Special Tony Award for Whose Life Is It Anyway? With long-time friend Peters, Moore co-founded animal adoption non-profit Broadway Barks and was a frequent appearance at their annual events.

Buck would have never watched an HBO documentary

Filmed a little too late? The whole cast, except Ted Knight, was alive just 5 years ago. But maybe Phylicia Rashad will have better insight.

R3 yeah she’ll remember MTM from the Cosby Show set

No interviews with Dick van Dyke, Georgia Engel, or anyone involved with Ordinary People? What fresh hell is this?

MTM seems to have been such a guarded, closed off woman that I'm wondering how anyone could get an interesting documentary out of her life. I'll be watching with skeptical anticipation, like someone waiting for a friend's cat to talk after being told, "I promise, he can talk, he really can!"

I have a friend who worked on the staff of 'Rose's Dilemma' on off-Broadway back in the fall of 2003. This was Simon's last play, and MTM was to star - before she was fired from Simon. The stories she used to share about MTM before she was fired would curl your toes. By every account of hers, she was horrible to be around - awful to the staff, costars, theater crew, and to Simon. However, Simon turned out to be the 'bad guy' in the press, as MTM cried about her experience. My friend has said Simon didn't care how she spun the story (he wouldn't talk too much about the situation) - he just wanted her away from his production.

R7, Ooooh!! Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. More of that, pretty please!

Poor Mary had such horrible plastic surgery in later years.

No commentary from Oprah?

No commentary from Elaine Joyce?

I choose to remain silent.

Julie could've told charming anecdotes about them filming the elevator scene from Thoroughly Modern Millie. And how she and Mary tittered at Bea Lillie's flatulence.

MTM being a huge cuntzilla is perhaps the worst kept secret in the industry.

I remember Kathy Griffin doing a bit on some show with Don Rickles and MTM came up as a topic and the faces they made were hysterical. Rickles said something like, "Mary.....she isn't the warmest person" and you could tell he meant it, but it was one of those things where the unwashed masses would think it was a weird joke.

But Laura Petrie and Mary Richards meant that she could basically kick a puppy, or kick a girl in the cunt bone (a la Stevie Nicks) and people would love her and either just pretend/believe such a thing never happened OR justify why it did.

That's the book and doc. we want to see: "Not So Mary: On And Off The Set With America's Sweetheart".

She had a shitty mother and a shitty childhood. She pushed past that and became one of our most endearing actors of the past several decades. Why expect perfection behind the scenes?

She was a cunt.

She hit me on the head with a fondue pot in 1969!

Funny story! She has diabetes.

Like with a lot of older Americans, she came to watch a lot of Fox News in her doddering years and became very crabby as a result.

Lena Waithe? Kim Carnes wasn’t available?

Joyce Bulifant and Helen Hunt will represent The Mary Tyler Moore Show cast.

She was not a good mother. Most of America's Sweethearts were bad mothers--Mary, Carol Burnett, Angela Lansbury and Julie Andrews. I wonder why that is?

I, on the other hand, saved Terry from the Manson Family! AND taught him how to park a car.

Angela Lansbury- I need her to have been a good mom.

My favorite MTM story - & the one that sounds most Mary Richards-like - is the one about how she met her last husband, who happened to be her mother’s cardiologist. When she accompanied her mother on a doctor’s appointment, her future husband encouraged her to feel free to reach out to him in an emergency. Mary asked if acute loneliness constituted an “emergency”?

Tim Hutton thought she was staying in character off camera on O.P. Ed Asner said as a person, she was a closed book.

I worked with her and found her icy cold. Not exactly bitchy but the very definition of passive aggressive.

She was a very private person and people judge that to mean she was nasty. We really treat celebrities like public property.

per IMDB:

Widely acknowledged as being much tougher and more high-strung than her iconic image would suggest, Moore had a life with more than the normal share of ups and downs. Both of her siblings predeceased her, her sister Elizabeth of a drug overdose in 1978 and her brother John of cancer in 1991 after a failed attempt at assisted suicide, Moore having been the assistant. Moore's troubled son Richie shot and killed himself in what was officially ruled an accident in 1980. Moore was diagnosed an insulin-dependent diabetic in 1969, and had a bout with alcoholism in the early 1980s. Divorced from Tinker in 1981 after repeated separations and reconciliations, she married physician Robert Levine in 1983. The union with Levine proved to be Moore's longest run in matrimony and her only marriage not to end in divorce.

She was a lousy lay.

This thread is starting to piss me off.

I always remember Robert Redford got the idea to cats her when he saw her walking on a California beach (I think Malibu) by herself... he says he thought to himself, "This is the most famous and beloved woman in America, and look how lonely she is."

R14 wasn’t the story that Kathy, Rickles and Betty White were all making inappropriate jokes and MTM walked out, disgusted? I read that on here so…

Was she a bitch or just and extremely miserable person (not least because of all the shit that happened to her)? There’s a difference.

To make extra money early in her career, she'd turn tricks wearing her Happy Hotpoint costume.

TV writer Ken Levine, who co-created the short-lived Mary, has withheld details but implied that working with her, despite his tremendous respect for her talent, was no walk in the park.

Hope the doc is as good as the recent one on Newman and Woodward. It was a fairly honest portrayal of them and their marriage.

When Val Harper passed away, there was a woman who was one of her closest friends since the MTM show. She had a lot to say about Harper and Moore's friendship - it mostly was non-existent. She used to visit Harper at the studio on Harper's lunchbreak, and Harper would confide in her that MTM was not a pleasure to work with. MTM was very jealous of Harper's sudden break-out success on the show, and encouraged CBS to 'write her off' into her own show by the third season. Over the years, she asked why she put up with MTM's mistreatment of her (the two actresses remained 'in touch with each other' but not 'friends' according to her) - she said Harper always said, "She gave me a big chance when I needed it. And I'll be forever grateful."

It was a very moving glimpse into the real relationship between these two actresses told by an outsider who had nothing but love for Harper in her tribute to her.

R19 We see you, Evie Harris!

[quote]No interviews with Dick van Dyke, Georgia Engel, or anyone involved with Ordinary People? What fresh hell is this?

Georgia Engel has been dead for four years.

R40, I’ll give her a pass this time.

Most of America loved Mary back then, but also most of us wouldn’t have said “she’s a very good actress.”

The fact that MTM was much closer to Beth J than Mary R or Laura P shows she was a much better actress than we thought.

I came here to say I hate titles that start with "Being" this or that. There is something pretentious about it.

Shomething pretenshioush.

HBO has a few interesting docs coming out the end of the month - Donna Summer (May 21) and now MTM. I have a feeling the Donna Summer one will be much better - enough survivors to give out info.

Valerie Harper's gratitude and loyalty to the person who made her a star is very rare in this business.

Cloris wrote her autobio before MTM died. Too bad; it could have been a "Mary Dearest".

Cloris' memoir was horrible - it was all over the place. It was like anything that entered her mind went onto paper. There was no rhyme or reason to the book, no chronological order, nothing correlated with each other from one paragraph to the next. A lot of scribbling and she tells the reader nothing.

The quote from Rickles was "She's not what you'd call warm."

It was obvious when she'd appear with Harper on talk shows that their friendship was very surface level.

Anyway, it MUST take talent to be so icy cold, yet appear so warm on your show.

I never thought she appeared 'so warm' on any of her shows. She always had the cool, icy WASP veneer.

I watched the trailer & it looks like it focuses on she revolutionized the way women were played on TV and behind the perfect looks, she had a less than perfect life, but I'm guessing they won't touch about what she was really like, other than she was tough because she had to be.

So, who was the bigger cunt, Mary or Cloris?

[quote]he says he thought to himself, "This is the most famous and beloved woman in America, and look how lonely she is."

R33, that's not what he said. Redford of all people wouldn't say that because he was a super loner who preferred being by himself.

That's too bad, R51. I'd like to hear how Mary never undressed in front of her husband Grant Tinker in almost 20 years of marriage.

Yeah, when watching the MTM Show, I saw flashes of coldness come through (in Mary).

R23 I loved her!

R23 When was Angela Lansbury ever America's Sweetheart? She usually played bitches.

[quote] Cybill Shephard

Oh, dear!

Now, THAT’S an interesting story, R7! The press at the time of the “Rose’s Dilemma” fiasco was all anti-Simon, so to hear that Moore played a part in it is juicy info indeed!

Mary may have had her shortcomings, but she was all about the work.

Neil Simon always was a first-class, narcistic twat. I was disturbed (if only a little surprised) to see how clearly that came through reading his autobiography.

Ironically, Neil Simon didn't get along with Mary's bestie Bernie Peters either.

[quote] I have a feeling the Donna Summer one will be much better

I wonder if they will finally settle the dispute over what Miss Christian Thing did or did not say about the homosexuals.

MARY!!!!

Neil Simon was stupidly cruel to Bernadette in his autobio, blaming her (in part) for the failure of the musical version of THE GOODBYE GIRL and stating that "she's not an actress."

Anyone remember this iconic photo by Annie Leibowitz for Vanity Fair (1995 Tribute to Television issue)?

Is "Rose's Dilemma" the worst play title ever?

Mary, of course, was also cast in the 1966 musical "Breakfast at Tiffany's" opposite Richard Chamberlain on Broadway. It had terrible reviews in Philly and Boston out-of-town tryouts, and closed after the fourth preview on Broadway - producer David Merrick took a huge loss. Mostly all the critics blamed the miscasting of MTM as 'Holly Golightly' (Merrick offered Tony-winner Diahann Carroll to replace Moore in Boston, before it went to Broadway, but Carroll said no; she thought that would be cruel to MTM). I hope the doc covers that.

The Cloris book had only short, rare mentions of her children.

Her own son mentioned in a Web interview about 6 months before her death that she was not a very good mother, but that the family was taking good care of her, anyway.

But Carroll said no; she thought that would be cruel to MTM). I hope the doc covers

NOW THAT'S A PAL!

So, her role in ORDINARY PEOPLE was not a stretch.

[quote]Most of America loved Mary back then, but also most of us wouldn’t have said “she’s a very good actress.”

This is probably true. But American movie and TV audiences often undervalue good comic acting, particularly in attractive leading women. It takes talent, discipline, and superior timing to do comedy, even as a "straight man" (which MTM excelled at).

Mary was a very good actress, and at times, an outstanding one.

Oh Mary, it’s just an inexpensive Celanese Fortrel.

[quote] Georgia Engel has been dead for four years.

Steamed Heat has new meaning.

[quote] She had a lot to say about Harper and Moore's friendship - it mostly was non-existent.

This I totally believe.

[quote] MTM was very jealous of Harper's sudden break-out success on the show, and encouraged CBS to 'write her off' into her own show by the third season.

This I don’t believe. MTM filled the cast with scene stealers including Valerie, Ed, Cloris and Betty (not you, Gavin!). I think it was driven more by the promise of making more $$$ via a successful spin-off.

[quote]Simon turned out to be the 'bad guy' in the press, as MTM cried about her experience.

I don't doubt that Mary was a piece of work, but Neil Simon was an unparalleled DIVA as well, a real pain in the ass.

It's like how everyone liked reading Arthur Laurents dish about others in books and interviews. I did too, but I know Arthur himself was as bitchy and self-involved as ANY he told about.

The Mary Tyler Moore Show...the best television show ever.

R69 In one of her interviews, this had come up. Carroll had said she didn't think the press was being fair to MTM (she did clarify they were more acquaintances, not really friends) and MTM deserved a fair chance like every other actress debuting on Broadway. Carroll said she was in MTM's shoes a few years earlier, making her debut on Broadway - which is nerve-wracking enough, without the added pressure of having the threat of being replaced hanging over your head.

Carroll was a classy lady - not many like them on Broadway or in Hollywood any more.

[quote]This I don’t believe. MTM filled the cast with scene stealers including Valerie, Ed, Cloris and Betty (not you, Gavin!). I think it was driven more by the promise of making more $$$ via a successful spin-off.

When Valerie talked to MTM about the deal to help make her decision to spin-off, she asked Mary IF the show was a flop and canceled by CBS, could she come back to TMTMS and play second-banana again. MTM unequivocally said "No. There won't be room for you here."

She was so shaken by her answer, she told Grant Tinker she didn't want to do her own show. She explained why - Mary said she couldn't come back to the show if hers flopped. Tinker promised her she would be able to - and put a clause in her contract to that effect. MTM was so upset with Harper going to Tinker and getting what she wanted, that she didn't speak to Harper off-set for months - which really hurt Harper. (This came from Harper's best friend, after Harper died).

Was there even such a thing as 'spin-offs' before MTM? I can't think of any 60s sitcoms that spun off a character into their own show.

Oh wait, Gomer Pyle. But I hardly remember him on Andy Griffith.

R79, The Andy Griffith Show is a spin-off of The Danny Thomas Show, believe it or not.

[quote] She was not a good mother. Most of America's Sweethearts were bad mothers--Mary, Carol Burnett, Angela Lansbury and Julie Andrews. I wonder why that is?"

To the relief of R25, I CAN at least report that Lansbury moved her family to Ireland from Malibu, in part to get her children out of the chaos of late 1960s Hollywood. But she once confessed that her daughter had been in a group "led by Charles Manson" (which you can Google).

So I wouldn't call her a "bad mother", but she wasn't a candidate for Mother of the Year, either.

I wonder if Joyce Bullifant will own up to crapping in the handbags of practically every Beverly Hills matron throughout the 1970s?

R79 'My Three Sons' tried to spin-off son "Robbie' and wife 'Katie' with the triplets in 1971. The last episode of the 1970-71 season was the pilot episode titled "After the Honeymoon" with the young family relocating to San Francisco. The working title for the spin-off was "Three of a Kind" but then CBS decided to retitle it "Robbie" . Actor Don Grady informed CBS (before they announced 'Robbie' in the 1971-72 Fall line-up) that he was leaving the series - and wasn't renewing his contract. So CBS canceled their plans, and had Katie and the triplets move back in with the Douglas family, and Don Grady's ('Robby') absence in that final season was explained as him being out of state working on a big project.

For good reason, R79, as the Gomer Pyle character was only in two episodes of the Griffith show, which also spun-off Mayberry RFD.

I'm surprised people never mention Mary's unappealing, high-pitched voice, which I couldn't not notice, even though I liked her.

[quote]She was so shaken by her answer, she told Grant Tinker she didn't want to do her own show. She explained why - Mary said she couldn't come back to the show if hers flopped. Tinker promised her she would be able to - and put a clause in her contract to that effect. MTM was so upset with Harper going to Tinker and getting what she wanted, that she didn't speak to Harper off-set for months - which really hurt Harper. (This came from Harper's best friend, after Harper died).

Triggered.

Andy Griffith wasn't really a spinoff ... it was more of a backdoor pilot.

[quote]For good reason, [R79], as the Gomer Pyle character was only in two episodes of the Griffith show, which also spun-off Mayberry RFD.

Gomer Pyle was on 23 episodes of TAGS.

[quote] Neil Simon always was a first-class, narcistic twat. I was disturbed (if only a little surprised) to see how clearly that came through reading his autobiography.

Who wrote it?

[quote]TV writer Ken Levine, who co-created the short-lived Mary, has withheld details but implied that working with her, despite his tremendous respect for her talent, was no walk in the park.

To be fair, the show was absolute shit. All the episodes were on Youtube a while back, and I could barely make it through one, it was so awful.

It was supposed to be the MTM Show of the 80's, but as Mary correctly put it, "Without the wisdom or the wit".

I enjoyed it at the time, though I was young and had a crush on James Farentino.

It was so stupid putting her right into another workplace sitcom, especially one involving a news organization! What were they thinking? And sure, the jokes were solid because Ken Levine and co. are no hacks.

R91 does he still have his blog (a blog how quaint these days)? I read it for a while but had to turn off after he would pimp out the utterly forgettable and mediocre (in looks and talent) Nancy Travis in every other post.

R92 No, he stopped updating his blog I believe sometime in 2022 (if I remember correctly). He got tired of thinking of new things to write about. And your comment about Nancy Travis gave me a smile. You're right about that!

She was terrific in "Whose Life Is It Anyway?" on Broadway. I still have the window card (poster) she signed for me.

I also have "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" Season one signed by Ed Asner, Valerie Harper, Chloris Leachman and Gavin MacLeod. Thanks CHILLER!

R79 There were even spinoffs in radio, before there was TV. One spinoff I remember from the 60s as a kid was Pete And Gladys (with Cara Williams and Harry Morgan), a spinoff of December Bride.

[quote]The Cloris book had only short, rare mentions of her children....Her own son mentioned in a Web interview about 6 months before her death that she was not a very good mother, but that the family was taking good care of her, anyway.

At the time it was reported that she co-authored the bestselling book with her ex-husband George Englund, but she told me it was her son who wrote it. Maybe she was confused but I definitely asked if husband was the co-writer.

I just wonder when all the tea about Carol Burnett will come out.

Probably once she's dead and can't sue anyone?

She and Vicki Lawrence fell out over Mama's Family and I think they've only "made up" for the camera.

I’m unfamiliar with most of the 50s / early 60s shows mentioned but as pointed out above there is a difference between a Stealth Pilot - where a character is in only one or two episodes of a popular established show as a way to test audience reaction - (there was one of these with “neighbor” Ken Berry adopted black, white and Asian boys at some point in the Brady Bunch, but that show never got picked up)) and a Spin-Off where the breakout supporting character had been on the show for awhile.

R98 the "stealth" pilot is called a "backdoor pilot" in TV terms.

R96 she has several sons. Morgan Englund was the one who sort of said she wasn't much of a mother....which I think the book kinda bears out. She was too busy working and fucking to have much time for crotch droppings, yet she had five.

The only kid that gets more than a random paragraph or two is the one that died of an OD.

It's truly bizarre Dick van Dyke was not interviewed.

R78 Valerie told a different story publicly. She was afraid to do the spin off and said to Mary "what it it fails"? And Mary told her you can just come back here. I think Valerie didn't want publicly to ever disparage Mary in any way and she didn't. Reading Valerie's book I got the feeling when she wrote about Mary that she really didn't know what to say because they were not close. The public wanted to believe they were best friends like Mary and Rhoda but it just wasn't true.

R97 never happened with me.

I forget where I just saw a new interview with Carol Burnett where she said she and Vicki were very close and talked often.

R102 Yes, Harper was very respectful and honorable to MTM, even after Mary's passing. She was very kind to do that. But I also noticed in her memoir that she was trying to hide the fact they weren't besties like the public wanted them to be.

R78, I also recall reading reports that MTM was angry with Valerie Harper wanting to be paid the same as her for their ‘Mary and Rhoda’ TV movie, and ignored VH during one of their press days to promote the film.

To her credit, Valerie Harper really didn’t have a negative word for anyone she worked with in her memoir (with the exception of the people responsible for her firing from ‘Valerie’), which was a refreshing change from the usual “woe is me” celebrity autobiography.

I never knew Bernadette Peters was close friends with Mary. I guess BP is like Debi Mazar. Very sweet and able to get along with difficult people.

^^Mary and Bernadette were best friends because they were both active in Broadway Barks, and organization to promote the adoption of shelter animals.

What does Letterman say about working with her?

BTW - this is REALLY bad.

At around 1:45, Julia starts to say something about how cold a person MTM was, but then cuts herself off.

I hated Valerie Harper on the MTM show so I was glad to see her go. And I never watched Rhoda.

r111 is Joanne Forbes!

Off topic I know but does anyone here did Leslie Jordan hate Mary Frann?

Back to the topic if I had as many back to back tragedies as Mary Tyler Moore did I'd be a little cold too. Life really kicked her in the teeth.

......

Who is Joanne Forbes?

R30 lol I wrote that. True story. I used to while away downtime at work by writing IMDb bios.

R115 Joanne Forbes was a character played by Mary Frann on what MTM called the worst episode of the MTM show (episode title: "Some of my Best Friends are Rhoda"). Joanne was a member the country club set, because fast friends with Mary, and disliked Rhoda because she was Jewish. When Mary Richards realized that Joanne was antisemitic, she ended her friendship with Joanne. MTM said she hated that episode because it was a "message" show ,and she didn't feel it worked well for the MTM show. After all, her show aired one hour after "All in the Family," so she didn't need to send messages on her show.

^^ "Became" not "because"

And I thought Mary Frann was a cunt!

R117 did she really think that? I enjoy that episode - and really the message part is pretty subtle - compared to the Barbara Thorndyke one, and of course I love that one too.

Similarly, she also supposedly told Carl Reiner the Dick van Dyke Show should not get “political” after the famous baby-switching?? episode—in which there is absolutely no message at all, just the appearance of a black couple.

R120 From IMDB:

[quote] The producers of the series have expressed in interviews that one of the worst episodes was "Some of My Best Friends Are Rhoda," in which Mary confronts her new friend, Joanna Forbes (played by Mary Frann), about her anti-Semitism. Everyone involved in the episode agreed it fell flat and was tonally way off-key for the series. "We are not Maude," Mary Tyler Moore said of the episode, which was attempting to tiptoe into topical and political All in the Family (1971) territory. The show stayed away from confrontational Norman Lear-ish envelope pushing after this episode.

Richard Chamberlain is still around. Surely he could weigh in?

Joanne Fucking Forbes.

Can you listen to these guys for 6 minutes?

R124 damn if MTM was that skinny with the camera adding 10 pounds …the top of her arms were the size of most people’s wrists (and I mean thin people)

I was hoping Joanne would go off on Rhoda with some savory ethnic slurs.

[quote]I hated Valerie Harper on the MTM show so I was glad to see her go. And I never watched Rhoda.

Glad I don't know you.

[quote][R124] damn if MTM was that skinny with the camera adding 10 pounds …the top of her arms were the size of most people’s wrists (and I mean thin people).

And then we got Chrissy M. and all the other fatties crowding up the screen.

R128 = Richard Schaal.

They should interview Sissy Spacek to tell how she ripped the Oscar out of the hands of MTM.

R40, That’s no excuse.

I met Neil Simon once. Cold. And needy. Such an odd combo. Totally dismissive of Elaine last laugh Joyce. She was lovely. Compensating for sure. I love watching her in old game shows and pondering where she ended up. She earned whatever it is she has.

Mary Frann was close friends with Valerie and Dick Schaal. Strangely, Bob Newhart did not like her. Maybe he was missing Suzanne?

MTM show must have been a nightmare on set some days.

Mary and Cloris at the same time? No wonder Cloris was recurring.

And then Betty White.....

[quote] The film features interviews with Tony winners Bernadette Peters, Joel Grey, Phylicia Rashad, and more.

I feel reassured knowing that they’re all Tony winners.

Even before PETE & GLADYS, which was a clever spin-off of DECEMBER BRIDE, with Cara Williams playing Harry Morgan's wife Gladys, who we often only heard about on the first series (not unlike Norm's wife on CHEERS), there was FRED & ETHEL, the proposed spin-off Desi Arnaz offered to Vivian Vance and William Frawley.

Vivian famously (and wisely) turned it down as she had had quite enough of Ethel Metz and Bill Frawley. Instead she did a pilot of a new sitcom for Desilu called GUESTWARD HO! playing the owner of a Southwestern dude ranch with handsome Leif Erickson as her husband. Nobody was happy with the results or wanted to see Viv play anyone other than Ethel, but the series did ultimately go forward with Joanne Dru (sister of Hollywood Squares' Peter Marshall) playing Viv's role. It lasted for one season.

[quote]So, her role in ORDINARY PEOPLE was not a stretch.

It was a stretch for AUDIENCES.

Odd, R68. Didn't Lorna Luft say Cloris took the Judy Garland kids in when Judy was having a suicidal meltdown?

[quote]I'm surprised people never mention Mary's unappealing, high-pitched voice

What is it with some guys that obsess over women's voices? I know someone who couldn't vote for Hillary Clinton because he was irritated by her voice, Jeez.

Her widower is the Executive Producer.

How laundered will her private life be?

R96, George Englund cheated on Cloris for years with Joan Collins, who used to refer to him as the love of her life.

R138 Cloris had an open door policy at her home, and Judy's kids crashed there many nights.

But I suspect the older kids and/or the housekeeper was taking care of things - buying groceries and the like.

[quote]What is it with some guys that obsess over women's voices? I know someone who couldn't vote for Hillary Clinton because he was irritated by her voice, Jeez.

I don't obsess over women's voices. Why do you put words in my mouth? Some people's voices annoy me, yes. Male or female. Mary's shrill, high-pitched voice has always grated on me. Not all the time, but sometimes. "Oh Rob!" One of the highest, thinnest speaking voices ever on TV. Sorry/not sorry that bothers you.

R139 ^

A little trivia: GUESTWARD HO was an autobiographic book - as told to - Patrick Dennis!

Cloris Leachman was angry with MTM when she told producers not to include "Phyllis" in the "Mary & Rhoda" movie / TV pilot. The writers and producers wanted to include her in some of the scenes, Leachman started talking to the media about being part of the reunion, but then MTM nixed the idea (Harper thought it would be great to have Leachman join them, but didn't get involved with their battle). Leachman didn't talk to MTM for quite a while afterwards, as she was that upset with her. Later in life, Leachman said it didn't really bother her (probably once the the ratings came in after it aired).

[quote](Harper thought it would be great to have Leachman join them, but didn't get involved with their battle).

Phyllis and Rhoda were great comic foils for each other.

R146, You mean, the “reunion” at 15:28 was not genuine?

R143, the post was about "some guys." How is that putting words in your mouth?

[quote]There were even spinoffs in radio

Yes -- "The Great Gildersleeve" was a hugely successful spinoff from "Fibber McGee & Molly."

MTM reunion on "Hot In Cleveland."

[quote]I just wonder when all the tea about Carol Burnett will come out.

Carol was not one for out and out feuds or any kind of confrontation. She was more passive-aggressive. Any issues were dealt with by other people so Carol could stay clean and well liked. (Don't ask me how I know this).

For a picture of the real Neil Simon watch the film of his play Chapter Two. After coming back from the honeymoon, James Caan as the Simon character is unbelievably rude, cruel and condescending to new wife played by Marsha Mason. I would have left him right there and then.

she told the story about confronting Harvey after he was said to have been rude to a guest star. I hear you are unhappy. You can leave at any time.

Carol Burnett stole Joe Hamilton away from his wife and multiple children.

She also faked an injury in order to leave Fade Out, Fade In on Broadway, prompting a lawsuit.

STOLE Joe Hamilton, R154? He had no choice in the matter?

The Mary and Rhoda thing was a mess.

They really wanted to focus on the daughters, and no one gave a fuck. They should have had a reunion in Minneapolis with Mary, Rhoda and a few others and of course the daughters.

It could have gone to series but the movie was just so bad and so devoid of ANYTHING that was loved about the original show that it flopped.

R156, The Dick Van Dyke Show reunion was just as awful.

Re R148’s link, were Betty White & Valerie Harper ever co-stars on MTM? My memory is that the Sue Ann character was added once the Rhoda character moved back to New York.

R156 CBS was smart enough to pass on this 'pilot'. ABC was dumb enough to pick it up and propose it as a series.

R158 You are correct.

And despite many of us remembering Betty White as a full cast member at MTM she was only in a handful of episodes every season.

R158 IIRC, the first episode which introduced Betty White's character was "The Lars Affair" (probably the best episode in the whole series) which had Harper in the cast. She and Mary were both trying to console Phyllis, when she found out Sue Anne was having an affair with her husband. White made a few more appearances afterwards before becoming a regular when Harper left.

Not quite sure I find her particularly talented or interesting professionally. Hit sitcoms (a big injection of luck) where she plays the same thing and one very good film (Ordinary People). She’s not Davis or Hepburn or Garland- or one of the great beauties of film stars like Taylor and Garbo. I’m always most interested in the extraordinary. She’s not that at all.

Her private struggles with type 1 diabetes and alcoholism and late life to the manner born lifestyle are more interesting to me.

[quote] White made a few more appearances afterwards before becoming a regular when Harper left.

She was never a full regular, but she made more appearances after Harper left MTM.

[quote]Mary and Cloris at the same time? No wonder Cloris was recurring.

Cloris was recurring because she off winning an Oscar.

The Lars Affair was a good, early episode. That's the episode where Betty closes the oven door with her knee hiked up.

Betty White came on more often in the later seasons, when Rhoda and Phyllis were gone. She was bawdy and was a welcome female character.

There's a good episode where she and Lou end up sleeping together.

The traded insults between Murray and Betty were also good.

Ted had become more of a buffoon in the later seasons and then they brought in the saccharine Georgette character and they both became cuddly and boring. Hence, Murray had no one to get irritated with (except Betty).

[quote]Is "Rose's Dilemma" the worst play title ever?

Are you familiar with one of Simon's later works - "Elaine Joyce's Nasty Cunt"

R161 is correct.

I always remember when Valerie left for her own show, we were worried how Mary's would hold up. But the 5th season opener was Mary going to jail, which was a great episode and the first Rhoda episode was just so so.

Did David Groh go shirtless in the first Rhoda episode?

This was some good, gritty MTM:

MTM was also fabulous as Mary Todd Lincoln opposite Sam Waterson's Abe Lincoln in a TV film about the couple (or was it a miniseries?).

My favorite DVD episode...

When Mary moved to her new apartment (after Rhoda left), she had two new neighbors, played by Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place. They were woefully underused -- Mary Kay's character was only in one episode, and Penny's in two (she was in an earlier episode as a different character.) I don't know if they ever planned to use them to "replace" Rhoda, but for whatever reason it never happened.

R149 Because I said Mary had a bad a bad voice and you replied to my post that you don't know what it is with "some guys" who "obsess" over women's voices, which I assumed meant me, since you were replying to me. I guess you meant a couple of other guys.

Mary and Betty were very close friends. They vacationed together frequently with their respective spouses. And Mary would have Betty go with her to some restaurant and pig out on occasion when she felt her health could handle it (She mostly used MTM show lunch breaks to take dance classes and eat a light salad).

Mary would have been perfect playing E. Jean Carroll in the TV movie.

R175 they did seem to be actual real friends but SUCH different personality types.

And also, Betty did not strike me as one who watched what she ate - she actually seemed blessedly free of insecure neuroses for an actress

So funny starting around 2:28

[quote] The traded insults between Murray and Betty were also good.

One of the funniest bits of business for the entire show was when Sue Ann came up to the newsroom to see Lou. She walks up behind a seated Murray, tilts his bald head to use as a mirror to check her lipstick. 😂😂😂

Everybody loved Betty White.

[quote] Everybody loved Betty White.

Not everybody.

R180 yeah she stayed close with both Johnny Carson and Joan Rivers and seemingly never had to choose sides. Lucky bitch.

I think she was also part of that exclusive Johnny Carson poker club - she was kind of a guys girl but women loved too too.

MTM was not a WASP, she’s an Irish Catholic who grew up in Brooklyn and Queens! She was just a sad drunk, closer to Anne Meara on Archie Bunker’s Place than Mary Frann on Newhart.

R183 she was a quarter Jewish as well, I think. Beth would NOT have approved.

Very few of the famous actors/actresses in this biz are actual WASPs , even those who sort of look it.

----

R162 I don't really agree. It was obvious in the Dick Van Dyke Show that she was a talent- and she was very suited for television. She was the kind of presence that people enjoyed having in their home once a week. She was engaging and attractive, and as time went on she developed her comedic timing.

R179 Hysterical.

For me, the most memorable scene of the series was the visit to Sue Ann's bedroom to cheer her up. It looked exactly as you'd expect, and if you touched a button, Ravel's Bolero (or some similar piece) started playing.

But the funniest part is Ted Baxter looking up at the celling, and adjusting his hat and tie in what we assume to be a mirror. In fact, that might be the funniest gag ever on television.

Mary carried over some of that Laura Petrie crybaby stuff to MTM Show. I think it was probably cute on the Dick Van Dyke show, but I didn't enjoy it in her MTM character.

[quote]R97 She and Vicki Lawrence fell out over Mama's Family

Why?

Why did they wait until the entire cast is dead? Five or six years ago, everybody was still alive except Ted Knight. They couldn't have made the documentary then?

[quote]MTM was not a WASP, she’s an Irish Catholic who grew up in Brooklyn and Queens!

NO. Mary was BORN in Brooklyn. She spent the majority of her childhood in California.

[Quote] She and Vicki Lawrence fell out over Mama's Family. Why?

Carol was having marital problems and eventually divorced her husband Joe Hamilton.

Joe approached Vicki about the Mama’s Family series. Vicki accepted without talking it over with Carol.

Carol felt betrayed because she was Vicki’s mentor plus her emotions were running high because the show started just as she and Joe were divorcing.

r192, a slight correction. Carol was part of the original Mama's Family series that aired on NBC. Joe Hamilton approached Vicki about doing the series for first-run syndication after NBC dumped the show. This was done behind Carol's back. Eunice "appeared" in one syndication episode, just her voice on a phone call, and it was clearly and very poorly done by Vicki.

Well Vicki was also a singer.

In "The Lars Affair", Phyllis (notoriously not a traditional housewife) bakes a home-made apple pie she plans on serving to Lars later that evening. She slices a piece for Mary to taste, and Mary has a hard time saying 'it's good'. She lets Rhoda have a taste and Rhoda says it's not bad. Phyllis tries tasting it herself - the faces she makes in that 15 seconds was worth an Emmy. She was a true comic actress, and proved it right there.

She then goes on a lecture about a book she's reading about insects, and how the queen bee gets rid of the husband once he's done 'servicing her'. Again, this scene deserved an Emmy - she steals the whole show with this story.

R191 she moved to CA when she was 8, i think it’s fair to say her childhood was evenly split between the two locales…

The Lars Affair 100% gets my vote for the all-time best MTM episode.

Mary Tyler Moore guest stars on Phyllis.

Ted's condescending Hi Phyllis was great, too.

R198 The show was written as Phyllis celebrating her 45th birthday, when in fact Leachman was 51 in real life. They should've changed it to her 50th birthday.

Mary Tyler Moore was Irish Catholic from an Irish Catholic family, not Jewish.

R181, No, not everybody.

Lace curtain or shanty?

Another great Phyllis line, to her platonic friend (hunky John Saxon) after he’s announced he’s getting married:

“I hope that you and Sharon will be as happy in your marriage as Lars is in mine!”

Have we discussed the ep where Phyllis's gay brother shows up? And before she knows that fact. Phyl freaks out because the brother gravitates towards Rhoda, not Mary.

......

Another favorite quip of mine from Phyllis is when she showed up at Ida's apartment for Rhoda's wedding, without Rhoda. All the guests have been waiting patiently for her - expecting she picked up Rhoda (which she forgot). Upon entering Ida's apartment, the guests start clapping and have big smiles on their face - so happy to see her, expecting Rhoda's finally there.

Says a delighted Phyllis to Mary upon the ecstatic reception, "My gosh ! This dress is everything the salesgirl at Bergdorf's said it would be !"

A concerned Mary asks, "Phyllis, where's Rhoda ?"

A beaming Phyllis responds, "I don't know - I just got here."

CLASSIC.

[quote] In "The Lars Affair", Phyllis (notoriously not a traditional housewife) bakes a home-made apple pie she plans on serving to Lars later that evening. She slices a piece for Mary to taste, and Mary has a hard time saying 'it's good'. She lets Rhoda have a taste and Rhoda says it's not bad. Phyllis tries tasting it herself - the faces she makes in that 15 seconds was worth an Emmy. She was a true comic actress, and proved it right there.

She did win the Emmy for it.

R207, Another fun episode featuring Phyllis was when Mary reluctantly hired her at WJM.

Lars had put her on a budget that caused Phyllis to exclaim, “Does he expect me to account for every hundred dollars I spend?”.

[quote]The film features interviews with Tony winners Bernadette Peters, Joel Grey, Phylicia Rashad, and more.

All gushing away about her, as you can imagine.

I worked with Valerie Harper on a project in the 90s and she was an absolutely lovely woman. I have nothing but nice things to say about her.

Did Phylicia Rashad ever work with MTM?

AS far as evereything I've heard from people who knew her, Valeris was beloved in the industry.

R200 Wouldn't that have made her too many years older than Mary? Anyway she always looked good for her age.

R214 I don't think it mattered that she was older than Mary and Phyllis. She originally was the landlord who befriended them, so age didn't really matter. IRL, Mary was 3 years older than her character and Valerie was 2 years older than her character.

Mary was a chain-smoking drunk for many years. She didn't get sober until she was around 50. She had lots of issues. Her public persona was so chipper and happy, yet IRL she really was more like Beth Jarrett.

I'd love to know when she became so conservative.

She was a very pro-feminist, staunch democrat in the 70's, as the clips from the doc show. But then I remember reading an interview she gave around the 1995 oscars where she trashed Pulp Fiction as filth and complained about how trashy movies were becoming. Kind of amusing given that she flashed her tits in Flirting with Disaster around this same time.

Her brazen tit flashing in "Flirting with Disaster" and slutty jiggle-bounce aerobics in "Just Between Friends" were trashier than anything in "Pulp Fiction."

I think it was the episode where Lars put Phyllis on a budget that she went to an employment agency looking for a job. The scene with Leachman and the employment agency staffer (Doris Roberts) was HILARIOUS — a testament to intelligent, witty dialog and two talented actresses.

A wonderful episode — also features Betty While! The scene with Leachman and Roberts begins about at 14:10 in the episode.

I said yes to everything.

Valerie Harper was so sweet. She and Ruth Buzzi were good friends. Can you imagine a day out with Valerie and Ruth?

I believe I read Mary and Rhoda was a pilot of sorts…but it looked like they made it for $100 and it basically set up Mary and Rhoda to be a lesbian couple.

I thought it was interesting that she moved to NYC. I guess she didn’t enjoy the California lifestyle? It’s more difficult in NYC to live a private life when you’re famous.

I'd love for Grant Tinker's children to write a tell-all book about Mary as their step-monster...

Phyllis: "The 'better-living-through-chemistry' du Ponts, Mary He would have given anything to marry me. But I didn't love him, so I didn't as him."

[quote] I guess she didn’t enjoy the California lifestyle? It’s more difficult in NYC to live a private life when you’re famous.

Seems like it would be easier to live in NYC if you're famous and want to avoid paparazzi and celebrity-seekers.

R215 Well she was supposed to be an old friend of Mary's and if she was almost 20 years older I think that does matter, also she had a daughter and they probably didn't want too big an age gap between the mother and daughter. Anyway, what's wrong with saying she's 45?

R224, One of Grant’s sons, Mark, was married to that nut job Kris Nelson, Rick Nelson’s ex, whose antics could probably merit its own book.

R217, Mary once admitted that all through their marriage, she and Grant Tinker never saw each other completely naked.

Living with MTM during her final days could not have been easy for the doctor hubby.

[quote]I thought it was interesting that she moved to NYC. I guess she didn’t enjoy the California lifestyle? It’s more difficult in NYC to live a private life when you’re famous.

Actually, she lived full-time in a palatial mansion in Greenwich, CT, about an hour outside of NYC. One of the wealthiest - if not THE wealthiest - communities in America. Her neighbors included Diana Ross, Mel Gibson, Martha Stewart, Regis Philbin, Meryl Streep, Patti LuPone, etc. She may have kept an apartment in Manhattan, but that is not where she was living full time.

This is about her two homes, in upstate NY and in Greenwich. Click on the links.

Mary and Grant Tinker built, remodeled, or lived in over 15 different house during the course of their 20-year marriage, including Lana Turner's former home in the Malibu colony.

Although they spent a fortune completely rebuilding Lana's house in Malibu, Mary said it ultimately proved to be a disappontment for them. She said the wall of windows they designed overlooking the Pacific made them feel separated from the ocean rather than connected to it...

Mary said that some of the moves were necessitated by Grant's children moving in with them.

Mary also admitted that she sent her own son Ritchie to live with his father when he became a difficult teenager, and she said it was one of the biggest regrets of her life.

[quote]She said the wall of windows they designed overlooking the Pacific made them feel separated from the ocean rather than connected to it...

So then what would have made them feel connected to it?

Jumping in, perhaps?

Remember when Mary was very concerned about a lobster being in a tank in a restaurant and offered to pay for its freedom?

R236, And there was also this . . .

In photos of an older Mary, it's apparent she had a nose job. Seems like nose jobs become more apparent when people age.

Anyway, sounds like she was just a difficult, unpleasant person. Being married to Grant Tinker or whoever she was married to during her MTM Show days seemed like a career move.

That said, the MTM Show is like comfort food, for me. I don't watch the later seasons, though. Rhoda was gone. Mary looked like she had aged, suddenly. I didn't even mind the new apartment (the interior, at least).

She looked awful in her later years. Terrible plastic surgery.

[quote]Mary also admitted that she sent her own son Ritchie to live with his father when he became a difficult teenager, and she said it was one of the biggest regrets of her life.

The one thing you can say about her was that she made no bones in her book and in interviews about how she failed Richie as a mother.

That being said, I do believe her sons death was a freak accident, and it's possible he might have been chemically impaired when he was cleaning off the shotguns. According to Mary, they were in a better place at the time and trying to work through their numerous issues. It's just one of those shitty things that happens.

I wonder if Mary’s stepchildren grew up invoking the “Buck would never…” meme to each other.

R223 just the opposite, especially in the 80s and 90s.

R217/r218 she did more than just flash her tits - she was giving George Segal a blow job at the end of the credits. It’s my favorite performance of here actually - but I’d be surprised if she were really complaining about “trash movies” around that time when she was gladly doing things like this. I know she became a FOX viewer much later in life.

Fifteen homes in twenty years is crazy.

She was a fucking bitch. Unworthy of any adoration

I saw her once at Mulholland Drive (the NYC Patrick Swayze restaurant, not the famed place), around ‘90 or so. Nothing exciting to report (it belongs in one of those boring celebrity encounters threads) though I did notice she was drinking a club soda. I did get one of the managers to spill that they came there fairly often.

Patrick Swayze had a restaurant?

[quote] She looked awful in her later years. Terrible plastic surgery.

She didn't have that much surgery because she was diabetic. She just aged terribly because of it. It's amazing she lived as long as she did since she was diagnosed early in life. In fact at the "Hot In Cleveland" reunion she was almost totally blind.

R247 yeah it was on 3rd and 62nd right on the block where all those absolut queer ads used to be. The main owner was someone named Bobby Ochs. Decent mid priced restaurant - not big on celeb sightings though, I think she was the only one I ever saw there. Opened late 80s and closed I think late 90s.

With Elvis

How much younger was her last husband? He looks like her son in the phot in this article.

Also if she was such a horrible, insufferable bitch, why did so many men want to marry her?

There's a childhood picture of here here, too. She doesn't seem to have needed a nose job. Maybe she did when she was older for some reason.

*photo

R231 Mary also had a very grand apartment on Central Park West that I happened to visit as part of a film project in the ‘90s. Done to the teeth, tastefully, and important art. And for the person who expressed surprise about living in New York, in the pre-cellphone era, New Yorkers didn’t pay celebrities much mind, it was considered bad form. In the 80s, I was leaving a friend’s apartment after dinner late one night and she lived around the corner from Mary on a side street off CPW. As we were saying goodnight on the steps, I spotted MTM and husband in formal attire out walking their dog before bed. No big deal.

Back in the 70s and early 80s I saw several celebs in New York (I never lived there but was there now and then, and even if I was there for a week I'd see some celeb or other). Just walking down the street and nobody bothered them.

While that first very early photo of Mary at r251 shows a pert nose, there is a slight bulbous quality to the tip that I can imagine Hollywood would insist be bobbed and thinned out, much like Marilyn Monroe's nose. This still happens, unfortunately.

I imagine Mary became conservative the way so many older people did in the ‘90s, just by spending their retirement days watching Fox News or listening to Rush Limbaugh.

Mary appeared to be quite happy attending a 1972 reception the Nixons hosted at their California home @ 8:30 on this video.

R255 Zooming in on it I don't see any bulbous quality.

Nixon won 49 states in 1972, R257, so I don't know if that's the best barometer of one's political leanings.

^ to our everlasting shame...

Dick was an ass.

R259, Nixon’s 1972 landslide did not occur until November, but the Watergate break-in had occurred in June.

So, everyone at that August reception was well aware of Watergate. Notice that husband Grant Tinker is not with Mary.

Love the idea of Grant and Mary banging at the walls of a glass cage of their own making, driven to madness by the siren call of the sea, just out of reach.

R262 I love that too.

A pundit at the time of the 1972 election said voters chose to ignore the Watergate story because if they didn't they would have to vote for McGovern.

“Watergate” didn’t really explode into the public’s consciousness until the early months of 1973.

R258, thanks for the best laugh I've had in a while. A post only to be encountered on DL.

Just for the record, Republicans in Nixon day weren't the white supremacist holly rollers of today. They didn't start evolving until Reagan.

R266 No idea what you found so hilarious.

[quote]But by 1970 she returned to the small screen as news producer Mary Richards in The Mary Tyler Moore Show. Feminists rejoiced: The vulnerable yet independent Richards was TV's first single career woman whose professional success wasn't dependent upon a man.

I think PEOPLE magazine (above) got it wrong. Wasn't Ann Marie of 'That Girl' television's first single career woman (an actress) whose professional success wasn't dependent upon a man ? The show began in 1965 and ended when MTM began.

THANK YOU R269. Marlo Thomas was a huge trailblazer for feminist rights who never gets the credit she richly deserves.

Yes, for her charity work with St. Jude she has been recognized, but for her stellar body of work, nothing.

I shutter to think where we would be were it not for That Girl. It was THAT important, no pun intended.

Time to give Marlo her flowers.

It's well known in the industry that Marlo Thomas is a raging fire breathing cunt so that's probably why she's never been given her due.

R271 And what was MTM?

MTM was nowhere near the raging cunt Marlo is. She's notorious.

Wasn't Eve Arden on Our Miss Brooks (a teacher) a single career woman whose professional success wasn't dependent upon a man ?

How about TV comedy writer Sally Rogers on the Dick Van Dyke Show?

The unmarried women teachers on Room 222?

Anne Francis in Honey West?

What about Diahann Carroll in Julia? She was a nurse. It doesn't count if you're a widowed single mother?

Lois Lane (reporter) on Superman?

I think Nurse Dixie McCall (Julie London) on Emergency! was also a successful single woman who...etc.

My older sister interned for Michael Dukakis (no punchline there) and she worked some big gala and MTM was one of the star guests who was supporting (along with Penny Marshall and I can’t remember who else offhand). So her conversion if that was much later.

I wouldn’t read too much into the WH thing. Warren Beatty was at the Reagan WH to screen REDS and they don’t come much more “liberal” then he. People do what they need to do to promote themselves and their product.

R274: Eve Arden had a love interest and, I think, married him at the end of the show.

[quote] Wasn't Ann Marie of 'That Girl' television's first single career woman (an actress) whose professional success wasn't dependent upon a man ?

R269 Well, Ann Marie surely wasn’t giving blow jobs to her boyfriend Don Hollinger, so I guess that means she wasn’t giving them to Broadway producers, so yes, she wasn’t dependent on men for her career.

[quote] Eve Arden had a love interest and, I think, married him at the end of the show.

R278 Arden’s character (Connie Brooks) was dependent on the school principal (Mr. Conklin) to keep her job, but that was one of the things that I think made the show so funny. The combination of Arden’s cynical delivery of lines and Gale Gordon’s blustery principal, and the fact that Miss Brooks managed to pull the wool over Mr. Conklin’s eyes or had something on him so he couldn’t fire her nearly every week, was hilarious to me. I thought that Arden was much funnier with Gale Gordon than Lucy was.

[quote]Well, Ann Marie surely wasn’t giving blow jobs to her boyfriend Don Hollinger,

Or taking a shit on a glass coffee table while her dad jerked off underneath it.

Not to quibble too much with the points made above, but teacher and nurse were pretty much the only career options open to college educated women until the 70s.

Sally Rogers was in a male dominated profession, but show business was “different” and to some not respectable - more importantly she was also portrayed as a man-hungry spinster, her career female-ness was the butt of the joke. Anne Marie was in a career that anybody can claim - and she was never shown to be a particularly successful actress

Mary Richards was sexy, smart, and working in what seemed to most viewers a glamorous prestigious profession (though the show did often undercut that for comedic effect). Her career defined a large part of her character, but it never made her unfuckable.

Lois Lane also worked in journalism, a profession that was male dominated (but did have a history of some female employment) but her character was thinly developed and just there to give Superman a romantic interest.

R277, And Barbra Streisand accepted her Kennedy Center Honor while W was POTUS.

She could have deferred, like Paul McCartney did, and accepted at a later time.

[quote] And Barbra Streisand accepted her Kennedy Center Honor while W was POTUS. She could have deferred, like Paul McCartney did, and accepted at a later time.

R283 Interesting how political scruples fly out the door when ego is involved.

R282 Well you actually are quibbling.

And Lois Lane was not just there to give Superman a romantic interest - did you ever watch the show? She was an aggressive reporter for a "major metropolitan newspaper".

[quote]Mary Richards was sexy, smart, and working in what seemed to most viewers a glamorous prestigious profession (though the show did often undercut that for comedic effect).

Galmorous, prestigious profession? She was a news writer/producer in a newsroom in Minneapolis, Minnesota! Sally Rogers wrote for a prime time network TV comedy show.

[quote]Arden’s character (Connie Brooks) was dependent on the school principal (Mr. Conklin) to keep her job

Just as Mary Richards was dependent on Lou Grant to keep her job.

Lois Lane wasn't much of a reporter if she couldn't tell between Clark Kent and Superman.

I sad “not too much” R285. And “to most viewers” - the show knew that Mary had a fairly thankless lower level job in a third tier market - but it seemed cooler than being a waitress or a shop clerk - this kinda of jobs most women in the real world actually had back then. People today still think working in broadcast TV is on the more interesting end of the career spectrum even though the day to day is no more glamorous than most other office jobs.

The point is to provide some cultural context to the “groundbreaking” statement often made about the Mary Richards character and not just simply point out every other earlier female TV character who had a job. June Lockheart was a full fledged doctor on Petticoat Junction but the show never explored what it was like to become a female MD in that era. Many of women of my generation say that Mary Richards showed them an aspirational possibility when they were kids watching the show. Plenty more than would say the same about Sally or Julia. Mary was the fictional embodiment of a then new cultural ideal and it resonated broadly within the culture - more so than Joan & Hope in “The Best of Everything” a decade earlier.

In the late 50s and early 60s, Ann Sothern played a single, ambitious, quite bossy hotel manager.

[quote]The point is to provide some cultural context to the “groundbreaking” statement often made about the Mary Richards character and not just simply point out every other earlier female TV character who had a job.

If I wanted to point out every female character who had a job since TV began I could have used a lot more examples. The qotation cited was from People Magazine:

[quote]The vulnerable yet independent Richards was TV's first single career woman whose professional success wasn't dependent upon a man."

This was about single career women - and there were several before Mary Richards, so it's wrong. I don't disagree with all you wrote - it's just beside the point.

Another thing to consider is that early TV was highly dependent on anthology series, and in many of those standalone stories there were also single career women. The single, independent career woman is a very common trope. It didn't start in the '70s with Mary Richards. Maybe she did it better, but she didn't invent it.

And before The Ann Sothern Show Ann Sothern played Susie McNamara, a private secretary to a NY talent agent on Private Secretary and the show never revolved around her romantic interests, it was all about her being a career girl (er....woman).

Loved Our Miss Brooks and Eve Arden but the comedy was often about how the handsome biology teacher Mr. Boynton, played by hunky Robert Rockwell, was totally unaware of Connie Brooks' hopeless and slavish crush on him. Trivia: Rockwell played Jor-El, father of Superman, in Superman's pilot episode.

R258/R268, I meant it with affection, in that only a true DLer would zoom in on a photo to examine a nose for bulbousness.

And I'm the poster that pointed out the "bulbousness" of Mary's nose in that early photo and my point was how silly it was and still is in Hollywood that her nose would have needed fixing. But I'll stand by my belief that she nevertheless had it bobbed and thinned ever so slightly.

R293 Well maybe she did have something done but we don't know whether "Hollywood" wanted her to do it or if she just wanted to do it because she was unhappy with it or thought it made her look better. I'm not sure she did have anything done because this is another yearbook photo (actually 2, high school this time) and her nose is quite small. If she had a nose job I don't know what they would have cut off, or why. But when she is a lot older (post-MTM Show) she does look like her nose is too thin and unreal.

If anything her teeth are what look different, they were more even later on.

I’m more interested in the bulbousness of Gordy’s polyester slacks.

At some point, real-life Mary did get breast implants (during the run of the MTM Show).

Given her diabetes, any surgery would/could be dangerous, a la Totie Fields.

Ann Sothern's theme song suggested that "all the boys" wanted her aging, ever fatter ass and she had a roommate. Eve Arden's Miss Brooks was forever chasing the shy Mr. Boynton. Sothern, in particular, as well as Marlo Thomas on "That Girl" followed the 50s convention of a scheming woman usually identified with Lucy (although not originated by her) rather than one being appropriately assertive. Mary Richards struggled with being an assertive person, generally left the scheming to Rhoda and Phyllis, occasionally spent the night with someone she wasn't planning to marry, and had no roommates. Her character reacted to those around her, which was more Donna Reed and less Lucy. MTM was the best friend you wanted to have, those other female careerists were the friends you were happy to see go home.

Are we forgetting Gale Storm?

Please, let's. Storm was another scheming 50s actress and her characters had Daddy issues.

Yup. Plenty of scheming - and I helped!

Susie McNamara may have "schemed" but it was all in the effort of getting her boss bigger and better clients.

R301, Gale Storm starred in two series, “My Little Margie” and “Oh! Susanna”.

On the latter, she played a cruise director.

Oh, Susanna! was years after Private Secretary and Our Miss Brooks

[quote]Anne Marie was in a career that anybody can claim - and she was never shown to be a particularly successful actress

And that was the premise of the sitcom. Regardless of how successful she was, she still had a career.

I'm still called an Admiral but I gave up the sea long ago.

Gale ain't gonna worry...

Was bold, unmarried Hazel a schemer or a dreamer?

R299 Okay, now put that in one sentence to explain how she was the first.

Honestly I don't understand how Connie Brooks having a crush on Mr. Boynton made her any less single or any less a woman with a career. That's all we were talking about. Not what lesbian-lite feminist she was.

In the early 2000s, Harper was involved in bringing the revised 'Golda's Balcony' back to the Broadway stage with playwright William Gibson (who brought the original 'Golda' starring Anne Bancroft to Broadway in 1977). Harper planned on starring in this new revision, and put up quite a bit of money to get it going. At the time, she was looking for a venue in New England to tryout the play, then move it to Off-Broadway and eventually to Broadway. She found a place in my hometown of Providence, and found a historic vaudeville theater (which did its own repertory of plays from Sept - June) to stage her play - it would be part of their repertory season that year.

A friend of mine sat on the board at the time, and the board would host Harper at their meetings that spring to see how they could work out her plans. Harper wanted to make changes to the inside of the theater itself and the façade of the theater, as well. The board couldn't really figure out why she needed these changes, and vetoed her plans since it was a historic building and they never would get approval. Harper kept fighting for it as it was her 'artistic vision' - and it eventually got very ugly. Harper packed up her team and left with a lot of animosity between the two parties.

About six months later, when the theater was hosting one of their major fundraisers for the season, Harper sent in a 'very generous donation' and a letter to the board wishing them well, and letting them know what a 'jewel' of a theater they had in their hands and she understood their protective nature. She offered an apology of how things ended, and she said she hoped to work with them in the future. ( She eventually contacted them about her staging 'Looped' there before it opened on Broadway, but it didn't happen.)

'Golda's Balcony' ended up on Broadway, but without Harper. She ended up doing the 2006 TV movie.

Didn’t she have (Harper) a weird Alan Hamel stage manager type of husband? And she was into EST I know that.

^ Many of these difficulties and other bad behavior are attributable directly to Valerie's second husband Tony Cacciotti, who has been widely reported to be a greedy asshole.

I think the reason that MTM show is considered 'groundbreaking' in its depiction of the single working women is because it was the first show that reflected what was becoming a societal phenomenon and not an aberration.

R284. Barbra said art transcends politics.

Valerie Harper was fantastic as Tallulah Bankhead in Looped and should've won the Tony.

Valerie's first husband, Richard Schaal, was funny and appeared on several early episodes of MTM.

[quote]And Barbra Streisand accepted her Kennedy Center Honor while W was POTUS. She could have deferred, like Paul McCartney did, and accepted at a later time.

She had turned it down once. They asked her two or three years prior, and she didn't want to take it because she wanted to wait for a democratic president. Apparently, if you turn it down twice, they don't ask you again. So she reluctantly accepted the second time.

Oh, they asked me.....BEGGED me....more than twice!

LEAVE MARY TYLER MOORE ALONE! Stop trying to cash in on her fame, HBO! Get lost! Take a hike!

[quote]Was bold, unmarried Hazel a schemer or a dreamer?

She was the white Beulah.

Kinda funny that both Harper and Moore were Catholics. Rachel Brosnahan wishes she could do jewface like Val.

Val was typecast early on...

R323 it’s not her “face” it’s her voice.

Close your eyes and try to tell apart Harper and Estelle Getty.

I suspect, given her reputation, Marlo Thomas must really resent MTM.

R323 In the track titled "Discussion in the Airplane," Valerie does her Rhoda Morgenstern character in 1966. I think Valerie said or wrote that because she was good friends (and roommate with) Arlene Golonka, who was in the predecessor record to the one with Valerie, she got the job after Golonka couldn't be in the second record and recommended they audition Valerie to replace her.

Interesting...

Thanks R327. It's not even a Jewish-specific joke, but having comedienne Betty Walker play the stewardess as a Jewish mother with a Yiddish accent turned it into a Jewish joke.

R322 Nancy Walker - the quintessential Jewish Mother - was actually Italian and Catholic.

I was watching some of the Valerie Harper Looped performance on YouTube and I was surprised that as T. B. she held up a pill container at one point and it looked like an orange plastic container with possibly a childproof cap - in the 50s. I'm old enough to remember (and I'm much younger than Valerie was) when pharmacy meds came in clear glass containers - or brown or green sometimes. Seemed like an obvious gaffe.

R329 Walker was certainly a gentile but I don’t think she was Italian or Catholic. Her mother was from Philly and her name was Fleming, her father was born in Reading, PA as Dewey Barto.

[quote] Lois Lane also worked in journalism, a profession that was male dominated (but did have a history of some female employment) but her character was thinly developed and just there to give Superman a romantic interest.

In the original comic, Lois lane wasn;t even a reporter--she was a "sob sister" (i.e. an editor of an advice column) like Ann Landers or Amy Dickinson.

Nancy Walker was of Scottish descent.

I don't miss many celebrities, but I miss Mary Tyler Moore, Patty Duke and Joan Rivers.

r330, LOOPED takes place in 1965, not the 50s. Even though I was a kid then, I couldn't tell you what prescription meds were packaged in. Which maybe is a good thing.

In 1965 I remember them being clear plastic. I can't remember if any of them were orange and they didn't have child-proof caps.

[quote] In the track titled "Discussion in the Airplane," Valerie does her Rhoda Morgenstern character in 1966. I think Valerie said or wrote that because she was good friends (and roommate with) Arlene Golonka, who was in the predecessor record to the one with Valerie, she got the job after Golonka couldn't be in the second record and recommended they audition Valerie to replace her.

Fun fact: Arlene wasn't Jewish either.

Nancy Walker's birth name was Anna Myrtle Swoyer. "Dewey Barto" was the stage name of her father, Stewart Swoyer.

Miss Mary Tyler Moore sure had a dirty mouth when she was in the play "Who's Life Is It Anyway?"

I wish I could remember the bio, but someone said that Nancy was the ultimate fag fucker during her early days on Broadway. If a guy said he was gay, Nancy would want to fuck him.

R339 Gay/schmay, the woman who brought Ida Morgenstern to life never met a gay she couldn't straighten out.

R340, Nancy was the type of girl who could turn straight men gay.

MTM is among the very few celebrities I can remember exactly how & where I learned of their deaths.

She had spunk.

R342, I remember playing cards with friends when the news about Diana, the people’s Princess was reported on CNN. We all reacted in horror.

Nancy Walker was besties with Montgomery Clift, but wasn't interested in turning him straight afaik.

Buck wouldn't watch this documentary.

Bill Quinn was adequate/good as Mary Richard's father on the MTM show...

But No Nose Nanette Fabray's comedic style was too similar to Mary's, and she frankly just wasn't funny on the MTM show.

I think the producers originally intended to make Mary's parents regular characters, but they didn't work out - and they dropped both characters after just a few episodes

[quote]Bill Quinn was adequate/good as Mary Richard's father on the MTM show...

Oh,dear.

Bob Newhart married Bill Quinn's daughter. At the wedding, Tony Randall apparently said, "look at who they got to play the father".

I think another problem with having Mary's parent be part of the show was that they already had nosy, intrusive characters (Phyllis and Rhoda) and an intrusive mother (Ida) who was much funnier. They really didn't need the parents and the scenarios for them were exhausted pretty quickly.

[quote]Was bold, unmarried Hazel a schemer or a dreamer?

We've had the conversation before. Hazel was a selfish cunt.

Another Hazel thread....

Mr. B was known to visit Hazel's bedroom off the kitchen for late night gum jobs.

Hazel wasn't into men.

Hazel was into the Sunshine Girls...a...um, well it's a women's bowling league...if you must know.

Hazel hung out with Josephine the plumber speaking of women on Tv who worked for a living.

Hazel Burke and I are just a couple of independent-minded career gals...

who haven't met the right man yet...

and who don't mind a good scissoring session while we're waiting on Mr. Right

I read that she was a right leaning libertarian…wow.

wow...

I have this celebrity cookbook from the 70s, with a profile on each contributor and then a recipe. MTM’s was so depressing.

She shared that she didn’t like cooking anything elaborate, “slaving for hours over a dish only to have it disappear in minutes.” So she’d brown ground beef with sour cream and a can of mushrooms, and serve that all the time.

I’m sure it was fine - but just the idea of a huge star using canned mushrooms in some luxury Malibu beach house was… dismal.

Jesus, Mary, LIVE A LITTLE!

Mary could be such a FEEB.

^ meant to sign “Twinks”

[quote] All gushing away about her, as you can imagine.

It was a miracle to get Phylicia to not talk about herself or about "Mister" Cosby.....

[quote] "Who's Life Is It Anyway?"

Oh, dear.

[quote]Jesus, Mary, LIVE A LITTLE!

You're six years too late with that advice.

Her recipe sounds like warmed up dog food. Yuck !

R360 No veal Prince Orlaff?

She could have afforded a cook.

[quote]No veal Prince Orlaff?

I'm sorry you have to rush to the table

but Mary mistimed her dinner...

(And don't get me started on how clueless she is about the Baked Pears Alicia!)

Watched it.

It ignored her failed attempt at a variety show after the series ended, as well as a couple of failed attempts at another half hour series in the 1980s.

The marriage to Levine was presented as idyllic, no mention of the numerous visits by the Greenwich Police to their home on domestic abuse calls placed by Mary.

Why were all the first person commentaries audio only?

It did not need to be two hours in length.

Levine had say over the content and the creatives.

Is the doc any good?

USA Today

Night before last watched Mary's guest spot on That '70s Show as Jackie's psycho bitch boss, a Wisconsin daytime TV host. She was good, she looked pretty good but sounded old with a shaky voice.

[quote]Why were all the first person commentaries audio only?

Thought that was weird.

R274 you know how long it takes to properly coordinate your accessories!

R374......oh these small keys......

[quote]Given her diabetes, any surgery would/could be dangerous, a la Totie Fields.

Totie had TYPE TWO diabetes, Mary had TYPE ONE.

[quote]The marriage to Levine was presented as idyllic, no mention of the numerous visits by the Greenwich Police to their home on domestic abuse calls placed by Mary.

That was during the period where Mary completely lost it - her mind that is. Dick Van Dyke said he'd call her but she "wasn't able" to talk on the phone.

Just watched it. One word: Great!

Guess she went the way of fun. and Hot Chelle Rae.

In the ‘81 interview with Rona Barrett, she looks to me a little like Vicki Lawrence at that time. It was not a flattering look.

I didn't know that she was a blackout drunk for many years before she got help for it.

She looked her best at the time of the Dinah Shore show.

She was endearing!

She wasn't what you call a blushing flower.

Although her character, Bess Lindstrom, was said in the documentary to be pivotal to the show’s early development, the actress Lisa Gerritsen, as always, is nowhere to be seen.

She lost 2 kids. Sad.

Is the doc on HBO Demand yet? I can't seem to find it.

I watched it on HBO Max, r388, but I'm not in the US, maybe someone else can answer your question.

R388, It's on the newly christened MAX.

Are you thinking of her much-younger sister, who was only three months older than her son, R387?

I stand corrected, r391. She lost a sister and a son!

Mary Tyler Moore's Poor Man's Stroganoff

Mary's "Poor Man's Stroganoff" recipe (mentioned above)...scroll to the last recipe.

Does her daughter Demi comment?

I, a superfan of the MTM show, had my own Chuckles the Clown moment. I attended the sparsely attended funeral of a great-uncle’s second wife, an elderly, childless, dour woman who was also the spinster sister of a non-blood uncle. Prior to the start of the funeral, I was asked to be a pallbearer. At some point in the service, I became convulsed in laughter in response to what seemed like a discordant note spoken by her eulogist. I fought to regain my composure, but, through fits & starts, it was a losing battle. All the while, I was conscious that I had become Mary Richards.

R392, She also suffered that miscarriage where they discovered her diabetes, so she technically lost a second child.

Mary Tyler Moore Meeker Tinker Levine

As her mother Marge said:

Roses are red.

Violets are bluish.

You used to be a Mick.

And now you're Jewish.

Everybody now

FUCK! the telephonе company

FUCK! national security

FUCK! the prime intеrest rate

FUCK! the Secretary of State

FUCK! Union Carbide

FUCK! third world genocide

FUCK! thermonuclear war

FUCK! Mary Tyler Moore

I just heard a replay of a Terry Gross interview with Mary from 1995, and she sounds like a lovely person…she talks about her alcoholism very frankly and also said she’s a lot more like Beth Jarrett than people realize.

So did Mary ever fuck Lars Lindstrom?

That bitch made me pay for some "minor" damage to her shitty car!

She just seemed like someone you wanted to be friends with.

Watched it and enjoyed it. Grant Tinker was HOT.

R400, Mary Richards was not into uncut cocks.

Buck never would have made a mistake like that, r387.

Thank you R65, what a fun photo. Love it.

R398 Dean and the Weenies! Mondo New York! Thanks for that trip down Memory Lane.

Disappointing that, long after her diabetes diagnosis, she was still smoking.

See at 2:30 to understand R407.

R408 Who cares, she’s dead.

[quote] [R408] Who cares, she’s dead.

Well, smoking may well have hastened her premature decline & death.

R411 And again, who cares, she’s dead.

You must be new to DL, R412. We specialize here in remembering the long dead.

R413. No I’m not, and you missed my point. Clucking over her smoking habit when she’s dead. Yes, she probably contributed to her own death with her habits. Almost everyone does, in one way or another.

^ sometimes just by being a cunt

^ Not me.

I'm not "clucking" over Mary's smoking habit, R414, just merely disappointed in someone whose Mary Richards character was somewhat of a role model. As I am disappointed about a holiday guest, a friend of many years, who, although now coupled up with the "love of his life," continues to smoke & overeat, while ignoring a diabetes diagnosis.

Does anyone know if MTM and Bernadette were true friends or just friendly for Broadway Barks? Surprised that the doc had no interview with BP, nor any mention of Moore's work with rescue animals.

[quote] just merely disappointed in someone whose Mary Richards character was somewhat of a role model.

Mary Richards was a fictional character. Mary Tyler Moore was a real person. Nobody should confuse a character with the actual actor who plays that character.

Actors in general are pretty fucked up people, and working in the entertainment industry is enough to drive anyone a bit crazy.

Mary and Bernadette costarred in The Last Best Year.

R417, There were audio comments by Bernadette on the documentary. Did you doze off?

Bernadette was the only celebrity at Mary’s service and burial.

R385 went to the funeral hoping and praying to be like his idol Mary Richards. I’m sure it didn’t come off that way to anyone but you. Probably perceived as being a disrespectful gay twat.

[quote]So did Mary ever fuck Lars Lindstrom?

R400. She never saw him. Nobody did.

I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. It was honest, straightforward, and loving.

I was surprised to find out that Beverly Sanders, who was in a million shows as waitresses or beleaguered, disheveled moms was her best friend in life.

OP here. I started this thread. I love MTM, always have. But I can't get over how many responses this thread has received. Nice going.

R416 I’m sure you’ve disappointed your share of people.

[quote]But I can't get over how many responses this thread has received

It's about Mary, Mary!

I was glad when they finally showed Beverly Sanders…I kept thinking I recognized her voice and when they showed her, I was all, “oh..HER!” She was in EVERYTHING but I never new her name.

When Mary purchased a house in Connecticut, Eileen Heckart, who, of course, appeared as her Aunt Flo, also became a close friend and neighbor.

Mary's ostentatious gravestone.

Exactly *how* did she make me better?

[quote] I was glad when they finally showed Beverly Sanders…I kept thinking I recognized her voice and when they showed her, I was all, “oh..HER!” She was in EVERYTHING but I never new her name.

R427 I always remembered Beverly Sanders after she played “Rayette,” a waitress at a restaurant Mary ate at several times during the MTM Show. “Rayette” was such an unusual name that it stuck with me. Beverly had a much larger recurring role in “Rhoda” as the ever-pregnant friend Susan Alborn. Like Julie Kavner, I thought Beverly could deliver straight lines and sometimes weak material in ways that made them funny.

I don't find the. headstone ostentatious.

Beverly appeared in one of my all time favorite situation comedy opening theme songs.

That’s a flat headstone parallel to the ground. t’s not an ostentatious headstone for a star. Check out some of the monuments some stars have in the Hollywood cemeteries.

I think r429 meant presumptuous, r432.

R435, No, I meant ostentatious. The gravestone is the size of a coffin. Too much!

Google Al Jolson’s grave.

I don't want to.

R431, Rayette was the name of the character Karen Black played in Five Easy Pieces, which was a huuuge movie in 1970, and in which there is also a famous scene with a waitress.

This is ostentatious, and the Brazilian comedienne who was buried there, was actually buried standing up!

R439 I always imagine in my mind that Rayette moved to Nashville and changed her name to Connie White.

Hope this works better.

R429 Not really ostentatious, just ugly.

Just really cheesy. The cursive script looks like a wannabe high society wedding invitation.

R45 The Donna Summer documentary wasn't as interesting as I thought it would be. It was interesting and worth watching, though.

R443, At least they did not use this as Mary's headstone.

One of the best episodes of the series...

A wonderful MTM episode that portrayed Phyllis' gay brother in a positive light - very progressive for the tim.

Mary wrote in one of her autobiographies, I think it may have been "After All", that she counted Valerie Harper as one of her closest friends, although they didn't see each other that often, and they were sometimes in the same city and didn't call each other...

I think people really wanted to believe Mary and Valerie were as close as Mary and Rhoda.

But in reality, they were work colleagues who developed a good relationship (mostly because Valerie worked so hard at it with Mary who wasn't particularly good at relationships with other women).

What’s so fascinating (and endearing) about MTM is that both Mary Richards and Beth Jarrett constituted facets of her personality. Mary Richards was MTM at her most open and vulnerable, and I’m sure a mixture of random fans, peers and associates, and those closest to her got to see this side of her when her protective veil slipped off. And, undoubtedly, Beth Jarrett certainly was the perfect replica of that protective veil, which revealed her to be more fragile and vulnerable than one suspected.

By the way, this documentary is excellent. I love, admire, and was relieved by her self-awareness. She knew she could be cold and aloof—“an ice princess”—but later in life, she changed. All-in-all this pic has a shadowy, reflective, isolated quality to it that ultimately symbolizes who MTM was.

[quote] I hated Valerie Harper on the MTM show so I was glad to see her go. And I never watched Rhoda.

R111 Bitch, get out! You’re no fan of MTM.

I don’t know if anyone else caught this, but there’s a moment towards the end of the documentary when MTM and her husband are shown attending an awards ceremony, and he tries to grab her hand, but she subtly pulls away. He tries whispering something to her, but she ignores him and approaches someone on the red carpet—a reporter or security personnel—to ask for directions. It’s a brief moment but speaks volumes.

R452 Maybe they were having a fight or she was mad at him.

Kept wondering why the doc ignored the several failed projects MTM did after her big success—her variety show with Michael Keaton, the TV shows Annie Maguire, New York News, etc.

[quote]ignored the several failed projects MTM did after her big success

I think you may have answered your own question.

^ And they did include at least one musical number from the failed "Mary" musical/variety show

Is there anything in the documentary about her Broadway show Sweet Sue? She was very honest in her book about her dislike for co-star Lynn Redgrave's shenanigans in that one.

R455 Covering all the parts she didn’t get is different from showing her major failed attempts at TV shows. After all Being Mary Tyler Moore seems like a pretty broad title.

R457, And yet, Mary praises Lynn in this interview @1:50, when Sweet Sue was in Boston headed to Broadway.

[quote] I don’t know if anyone else caught this, but there’s a moment towards the end of the documentary when MTM and her husband are shown attending an awards ceremony, and he tries to grab her hand, but she subtly pulls away. He tries whispering something to her, but she ignores him and approaches someone on the red carpet—a reporter or security personnel—to ask for directions. It’s a brief moment but speaks volumes.

Or he was trying to guide her as he has said she was seeing impaired for a log time and hid it, Maybe she was trying to hide it there.

Apparently, Mary and Lynn Redgrave got along great at the start of SWEET SUE, but things went awry after the show opened to mixed reviews and Lynn began trying new things with her blocking and line readings.

I believe R452 was seeing something that really wasn't anything telling at all.

What I found disturbing was the way Mary said "Shut up, Robert" to her husband when they were with the horses at their Connecticut farm, moments after saying the same to her golden retriever in the same harsh tone.

You could tell her husband was taken aback by the expression on his face.

R481, When Sweet Sue played Boston, it was the male nudity that was helping ticket sales.

Whatever the truth in real life, the documentary makes their relationship seem almost perfect. The "shut up Robert" was obviously playful.

R464, Playful, my ass. Look at it again. Mary had been living in hospice for over a year before she died, Dr. Levine was not even living in the same house with her.

^ Mary, was getting Hospice care in her own home, based on what I've read.

R466, Yes, but Levine had not been living there, would just visit.

I'm assuming Mary's parents predeceased her, so the entire immediate family is now dead.

Jeez, r465, I said it wasn't necessarily the truth. But Levine was a large part of the documentary, and therefore, they made their relationship seem to be ideal on it.

Good thing she had that “Tyler” in there or she’d be just plain Mary Moore.

Mary's sitcom, "Mary" wasn't great, but a pre-Married with Children Katey Sagal was hiarious as her co-worker and easily walked away with the show.

[quote]Good thing she had that “Tyler” in there or she’d be just plain Mary Moore.

She was known as "Mary Moore" for most of her life...

but when she registered with SAG, she found an actress named "Mary Moore" was already registered,

so she added her father's middle name "Tyler" to create a name SAG would accept.

Both Mary and her father were proud of the fact that they were descendents of President John Tyler and the Tyler family of Virginia...they were as Mary liked to say "impoverished nobility".

Tip a canoe and Mary Tyler Moore, too.

23 skidoo!

"We've had the conversation before. Hazel was a selfish cunt."

Tell me you're a DL regular, without telling me you're a DL regular.

How much plastic surgery did she have.

R476, I believe the speculation is that she did not have any more than the ordinary actress of her age, however her diabetes made healing difficult and thus the surgery didn't settle as well as it did with others.

Mary always looked good, even in her last appearance that I remember seeing - her 2013 appearance on partial MTM cast reunion on "Hot in Cleveland"...

especially considering her husband Robert Levine's revelation that Mary was at least partially blind for the last 30 years of her life.

GMA story about the cast reunion of the MTM show on "Hot In Cleveland"

An interesting Deadline article about this documentary

"Support Your Local Mother" that introduced Nancy Walker as Rhoda's mother, Ida Morgenstern, is one of my favorite episodes.

Nancy Walker went on to become a featured character on both the MTM show and later on Rhoda.

MTM & Dr. L. came to see a show I was in. Afterward they came backstage. Couldn't have been nicer. Clearly devoted to each other. Seemed like nice people in a good marriage.

Sometime in the 1990s an acquaintance went to a family wedding in the 927 Fifth Avenue building where Mary and Robert Levine lived for many years.

He said he got on the elevator to see Mary, Robert, and their two dogs, who I think were named Dash and Dudley. Mary and Robert introduced themselves and their dogs and couldn't have been more charming and friendly to him.

Let's face it. Mary was complicated.

Kathy’s story about Mary begins at 42:09

[@Emmys rehearsal green room. Kathy sits by Mary Tyler Moore.]

KG: [to Mary] Mary Tyler Moore, you look like a million bucks.

MTM: [to Kathy] Thank you. [She gets up “and walk(ed) away from the crazy lady.”

Don Rickles: [to Kathy] Do you know Mary?

KG: [to Don] No. I’ve never met her.

DR: [to Kathy] She’s not exactly what you would call…social [“and rolls his eyes.”]

I got her autograpg for the friend I was with (who was too shy) after Sweet Sue. I was shocked that close up, her face was just a mass of little wrinkles. Though from a distance she looked terrific. And I thought her later plastic surgery did not look good on her. It was scary looking.

R481, Nancy Walker's episodes as Ida on MTM are some of the best of the entire series. I'm not a big fan of the show Rhoda however and really feel that the dynamic of Rhoda's mother (and father at times) visiting her in the Twin Cities with Mary around created a wonderful dynamic between actors and characters that didn't work quite as well when Rhoda returned to NYC and was married.

I love that Mary smoked and drank UNTIL THE LAST POSSIPLE FUCKING MINUTE

She couldn't get into the New Rochelle PTA Talent Show no matter how many chaines turns she could do in her living room.

Wish Dick Van Dyke had played the dad in Ordinary People.

If Robbie Rist had played Conrad, that would have been THE DREAM CAST, R490

Just watched the documentary tonight and thought it was spectacular. I can't understand posters here who think it leans too far into merely flattering Mary. I felt it was very even-handed and didn't hesitate to show the darker and colder and unflattering aspects of her personality. The early interview with David Susskind from 1966 was particularly fascinating, where you just know young Mary was trying so hard to be nice to that pompous ass.

I don’t know how old you are, R3, but “that pompous ass” was a leading progressive media voice of his era.

[quote]She couldn't get into the New Rochelle PTA Talent Show no matter how many chaines turns she could do in her living room.

Au contraire, r489. Also, she couldn't do the chaines in the living room because of the rug.

R492, the world of 1966 is as different as the world of 2023 as the world of 1903 was to the world of 1966.

[quote] but “that pompous ass” was a leading progressive media voice of his era.

Yeah, you could tell he was a "progressive media voice" when he said that married women talk to much and you can always spot them in a restaurant gabbing while their poor husbands looked bored.

*too much

What about it was 57 years ago that you don’t understand, R496?!? Your tender ears will likely be shocked to hear what the leading liberals of the ‘60s said then about gays & Blacks. Not to mention transgendered individuals.

^ So that makes David Suskind a progressive?

I'm 74 and remember Susskind quite well.

Anyone here defending him has clearly not watched his 1966 interview with MTM. Time has not been kind to David, sorry to say.

[quote] Time has not been kind to David, sorry to say

But time would not be kind to any progressive voices from mid-'60s America. Facts.

Why couldn’t Susskind be a progressive and a pompous ass at the same time?

There is nothing "progressive" about anything Susskind says to MTM in that interview. He couldn't be more condescending to her and much of it would be a perfect example today of "mansplaining" at its most obnoxious.

If you disagree, please explain and cite some examples.

I’m curious, R503. Just how old are you?

David Susskind made the mistake of dying on the same day as Andy Warhol in 1987.

Andy's death received much media attention and was on the front pages of all the newspapers tbe next day, while Susskind's passing was barely mentioned.

I’m curious about something. Am I the only person who never thought The Mary Tyler Moore Show was great? I thought it was good, very good sometimes, great occasionally. I always think it’s a little too smug and self-satisfied at how good it thinks it is When it had sort of working class characters like Rhoda or her mother, I always thought they were a college-educated person’s idea of what a working class person was, rather than authentic. Granted, they skewered a certain snobby type, too, like Phyllis. And the show was more on the shade of Rhoda than Phyllis. But there’s something shallow or hollow about it.

*on the side of

[quote] David Susskind made the mistake of dying on the same day as Andy Warhol in 1987. Andy's death received much media attention and was on the front pages of all the newspapers tbe next day, while Susskind's passing was barely mentioned.

That wasn't true of the 2/23/87 NYT, R505. Their obits were both front page, below-the-fold, with Warhol, in the right-side of the paper, above Susskind, who got the center section of the layout.

R508, And there was this . . .

r504, I'm 74 and also posted at r500 and r503.

So I remember watching David Susskind's shows because, even as a teenager, I recognized that he would bring on forward-thinking, thought provoking guests, unlike just about any other TV talk show, that would feature highly provocative and often liberal causes. I'll never forget an eye-opening show he did with members of the Mattachine Society and another show about a group of gay men who had "converted" to heterosexuality through some guru quack (spacing on his name).

But watching the MTM interview now, Susskind totally comes off as a Neanderthal backward thinker. And truly discourteous and condescending to his guest to boot. Once again, watch the interview and see if you disagree.

I'd even bet now that as liberal as Susskind might have seemed at the time, watching him now you'd see that he often took the opposing conservative side. Whether this was just for argument's sake to make a better show, I don't know.....but his reputation doesn't wear well.

R508, And this . . .

R510, It was David Susskind who gave us "Laura", starring Lee Bouvier(Radziwill) and DL icon Arlene Francis in 1968.

I remember watching that, too, r512. A HUGE BOMB (I may have only lasted through the first 1/2 hour).

R513, The ratings were tremendous because it starred Jackie's sister, but the critics and columnists trashed it and Lee's performance.

Susskind was so humiliated that he banned it from ever being repeated.

It's been MIA for decades, but there was a public showing at The Paley Center several years ago.

R506 🔪

^ Oopsie. Wrong thread.

R516 No, the thread is the correct one.

^ Gremlins are at loose today.

[quote] I always think it’s a little too smug and self-satisfied at how good it thinks it is When it had sort of working class characters like Rhoda or her mother, I always thought they were a college-educated person’s idea of what a working class person was, rather than authentic.

Originally, I don't think Mary or anybody associated with the show was smug. They were just trying to get renewed for another season. I think it's the fans who elevated the show to "infallible" status.

The Rhoda character was sort of ridiculous - positing that Mary was so much more beautiful than Rhoda. When I was little, I thought Rhoda was a lot better-looking & enjoyed Rhoda's fashions more than Mary's.

However, Mary also did not have a college degree. There was an episode where Mary got angry with Rhoda for telling Lou, etc., that Mary lied on her resumé - saying that she had a college degree when she didn't.

Also, Rhoda made more money - as a window dresser - than Mary made as female associate producer at tiny station WJM.

I never thought Valerie Harper was was better looking than Mary Tyler Moore.

^ Hey kiddo, I won the beauty pageant - I am "Miss Hemphills Department Store"

I won, cookie!

I never really cared for Mary's friend Rhoda - she was just too...um, ethnic, for me.

Funnily enough, neither Valerie Harper or Nancy Walker were Jewish.

Who can turn the world on with her smile?

Who can take a nothing day

And suddenly make it all seem worthwhile?

Well it's you girl, and you should know it

With each glance and every little movement you show it

Love is all around, no need to waste it

I wonder why we didn't hear anything from Dr. Lars Lindstrom in this documentary?

I recently watched some clips of Betty White as Sue Ann Nivens on Youtube and she was hilarious. Brilliant delivery and timing.

Agreed, R527...

And here is some evidence of Betty's brilliance.

I just saw this doc over the weekend and I thought it was extremely well done. I thought it was pretty even in its portrayal of MTM. I was surprised to find out her childhood was not perfect and she had issues with her mother (and father, it seemed). Didn't see like either of them would win parents of the year with their partying ways.

What a cruel blow to have life imitate art and her son die in the same kind of gun accident as her movie son in Ordinary People. I can't believe how that must have hurt her.

I felt like her last 2 marriages seemed real and Dr. Levine seemed like a godsend to her. I liked her upstate NY farm, happy that she had that later in life. Didn't seem like she found happiness until her 40s.

How sad she said she still felt like a failed dancer, not a successful actress. What a nice thing for her to have that special Tony award.

Betty White owed everything to the MTM Show. Her career was moribund, hosting a little-seen syndicated pet show before being cast to play Sue Ann Nivens.

^ apparently you have forgetten that she was "Mrs. Allen Ludden".

After Rhoda and Phyllis left, they treated Betty White as a regular member of the show's cast, even though Betty was only in about a third of the episodes.

I really enjoyed most of the MTM show, but it never recovered the spark it had before Rhoda and Phyllis left

[quote]David Susskind made the mistake of dying on the same day as Andy Warhol in 1987.

I can relate to the feeling of being robbed of your minute in the sun.

[quote] Funnily enough, neither Valerie Harper nor Nancy Walker were Jewish.

R524 Funnily enough, Robert Moore, who played Phyllis's gay brother, was gay!

R529 Buck would never have committed suicide. What film did you watch?

Beth Jarret is beloved by eldergays because she's the rich WASP ice queen they've aspired to be their whole lives.

R535, He played an openly gay character in "Tell Me That You Love Me, Junie Moon".

Am I the only person who never thought The Mary Tyler Moore Show was great? ... great occasionally.

Well which is it?

I enjoyed the documentary but it felt like a sanitized version of her life and marriages and it left me wanting to hear the real dirt. Before that, I couldn't have cared less but the 911 calls someone posted here require explanation other than that old Mary was crazy. And if she was, what was life like for her much younger husband?

I haven't watched this and probably won't, but r540, these younger guys that marry much older women fit into three categories in my mind:

1. They want to sail on her money/fame.

2. They have a major Mommy complex.

3. They are closeted and perhaps want to try on all the clothes in her closet.

In any event, they know what they are getting into.

And they know people are going to assume those things about them even if maybe the reason is none of those things.

R541, Since they met when he was "on call" on a major Jewish holiday when her mother was ill, and since he himself is Jewish, I would imagine he had no significant other or close family members in his life.

Didn't he say on the documentary that he was unfamiliar with Mary Tyler Moore and her career when they first met?

Was glad that they discussed the “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” debacle, I find that saga fascinating.

Interesting, too, that so many people described MTM “aloof” — and these were people who LIKED her!

I never could understand casting Mary Tyler Moore as Holly Golightly. She's completely wrong for it. Madcap and sophisticated was definitely not Mary in 1967.

I watched “Just Between Friends” the other night. Sam Waterston and Ted Danson were both so handsome and Timothy Gibbs who played the son was super hot. I think Mary was a good 10-12 years older than Ted (playing her husband) and it showed. She was way too thin which aged her face prematurely.

Written and directed by Allen Burns but a critical and commercial dud. I wonder if he was jealous of James L Brooks’ post MTM success.

Speaking of James L Brooks, I could actually see Mary playing the part of Aurora Greenway in TOE.

It was better than I expected. They probably could have done more with her post MTM Show flops and teh last marriage is a little whitewashed; however, there was one seen where yiu could see how she probably provoked fights with her last husband. She was probably a nastier version of Beth Jarrett.

The documentary made so much of the effect the failure of Breakfast at Tiffanys had on her but skipped right over all her other failures in variety shows and later sitcoms. How did she handle those?

Glug glug, R548.

David Susskind also gave the world On Our Own, a sitcom about a female-run ad agency, with Bess Armstrong in a terrible mushroom haircut, the future Young Dorothy Zbornak, and Dixie Carter overdoing it as the office slut.

I can't tell if this is more evidence of him being a Neanderthal or progressive, tbh.

What would you want to see in terms of her handling the failed shows, r548? Footage of her crying in her bedroom? What would be the point? I think the doc makes it fairly clear that MTM's post Mary Richards' life was no bowl of cherries without having to detail each and every flop. I think the excerpts from the Rona Barrett interview were intense enough.

I had forgotten how smarmy Rona Barrett was. She still couldn’t outcunt Barbara Walters.

[quote] What would you want to see in terms of her handling the failed shows

Was she surprised at their failures? Did she have problems with the writers and actors? What did David Letterman and Michael Keaton think of them? Was the problem network interference? What did the Manhattan Transfer think of her?

Was she surprised by her failures?

Yes. Of course. She was a human being. Presumably there was no footage of her publicly talking about them beyond what's seen in the doc.

R554, are you just intentionally being obtuse? If the failure of Breakfast at Tiffanys can be part of the discussion, why can't the others?

Susskind was an interesting guy. There's a bio that came out 10-15 years ago that didn't get much notice but was a good read. He was someone who wanted to bring important issues and elevated tastes to telvision and tried to do this on a budget. He could be quite blunt and a bit of jjerk even by standards of his time on "Open End" which was his local and later syndicated talk show--but he brought on controversial guests and topics. He famously hired and promoted women but get away with paying them less than males got from other production companies. He was partially responsible for "Get Smart" East Side/West Side and some other relatively good, smart tv shows but also for the expensive and delusional Lee Radziwill version of Laura, and the daytime Supermarket Sweep. He produced tv movies through the 70s and was one of the people responsible for bringing Raisin in the Sun to the screen.

A musical version of “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” starring Laura Petrie and Dr. Kildare, produced by Broadway’s most famous showman David Merrick, must have looked like a surefire hit on paper in 1966. It was a bold move for Merrick to bring in Edward Albee (!!), but it ultimately sunk the project.

[quote] She was way too thin which aged her face prematurely.

She lived on booze and cigs for many years.

R557, I was surprised to recently learn that the Saturday Evening Post was still in circulation.

R533 I disagree. After Rhoda and Phyllis left, The MTM Show developed a slightly more sophisticated and melancholic air that suited it well, allowing to blossom into a true timeless classic. And I think this is why the series has endured: The trajectory from its first episode to its last episode feels lived in and real. The characters, dynamics, and settings change, and the viewer is witness to real loss and growth. By the time we, as spectators, get to the moment where Mary clutches and hangs onto the newsroom door, surveying her desk and workplace for the last time, we feel the weight of several lives moving on.

The MTM Show is my favorite sitcom, even though it precedes me by 20+ years. That says something of its worth.

R537 Maybe this is how they sit around and talk at the hospital, but we're not at the hospital.

R550 Beth Armstrong played the quintessential perfectly imperfect mother to exquisite perfection in My So-Called Life. She is so underrated.

R562, as good as Beth Armstrong was in My So Called Life, Bess Armstrong was even better...

I was the OG Bess.

Just watched the “FEEB” episode from Season 2 on Hulu. Barbara Sharma (the Feeb) stole every scene she was in. They should have brought her in to play Karen Walker’s mom on Will and Grace.

FEEB!

I would've been so nervous about Rhoda leaving. But really the picked up Betty White and didn't miss a beat.

The dynamic between Mary and Rhoda where Mary was the "pretty" one was always silly. Even when Rhoda was slightly fatter, she was still every bit as attractive as Mary.

It actually worked better on Rhoda, where Rhoda was the together, beautiful accomplished one, and her sister Brenda was a shrub. No matter how you slice it, Julie Kavner was no looked!

If they didn't have Rhoda get married, and focused on the friendship between Rhoda and Brenda, it would've worked better.

Rhoda had the blunt demeanor, more eccentric wardrobe and the less WASPy looks, so even though Harper was attractive, she could be trreated as the lesspretty one.

They really made Harper look shlumpy in the first two seasons. She was a bit overweight, but they didn't let her look that attractive. When she lost the weight, they decided to use that as a plot point, by the 3rd season she looked great.

I don't think that many straight guys would've felt Rhoda was more attractive, setting up the Phyllis' gay brother episode. Not a surprise that on a gay website, some feel she was better looking than MTM.

If you lived in Minnesota in the 1970s, a woman who looked and behaved like Rhoda Morgenstern would have been quite the fish out of water and not most straight men's cup of tea. Hindsight...and metaphors...are everything.

R564 she was a gorgeous looking woman. OMG and right thru her life as well.

It has to be some gay man thing. Rhoda has no appealing feminine qualities, she’s blunt and doesn’t dress in a pretty way. True, Valerie Harper wasn’t bad looking but you’re just supposed to accept that Rhoda is not man bait. I don’t think it’s hard to understand.

Rhoda was perfectly acceptable.

Two of my favorite episodes involve actor Gino Conforti.

1. Mary & Rhoda pretend to be divorced and join a club for divorced people. They want to take advantage of charter flights to France (via the divorced people's club). Conforti plays Roy, a cheesy car salesman-type in the divorced club. At the end of the episode, Mary can no longer take lying about her marital status and admits: "I'm not divorced." Roy and a bunch of other also admit they're not divorced and only joined the club to meet singles. Roy admits he lied about his age, as well.

2. Lou sends Mary a chain letter. Mary then sends Armand Linton a chain letter. Armand is now separated from Mrs. Armand Linton. Armand comes over to pick up Mary for their date and a pots and pans salesman (Conforti) shows up. Rhoda, of course, is involved in all of this. Can't have Armand without Rhoda.

[quote] …her sister Brenda was a shrub.

R568 I think you meant “shlub,” but “shrub” works, too.

It's schlub.

R578 Both spellings are acceptable, according to Merriam-Webster.

OK, sorry.

[quote]The MTM Show is my favorite sitcom, even though it precedes me by 20+ years. That says something of its worth.

MARY!

[quote] They really made Harper look shlumpy in the first two seasons. She was a bit overweight, but they didn't let her look that attractive.

R570 I'm of the opinion that Valerie Harper was wearing padding during the first two seasons of MTM to make her look bigger than she actually was, especially around her hips and derriere. I'm not saying she was as thin as she was by the 3rd and 4th seasons of MTM, but here she is in 1966, four years before the premiere of the MTM Show. The shape of her face looks similar to what it did by the 3rd and 4th seasons of MTM. In the earlier seasons, Valerie's hair was usually pulled back tightly, and her face looked more round without long hair alongside her face.

PS, I know that's not Valerie in the foreground; she's in the background looking on at the bride kissing Lou Jacobi.

R580 Thanks. You're a mensh (also spelled mensch!).

I always thought that Valerie Harper was a very pretty woman, I never saw her as frumpy like Rhoda was supposed to be.

I think Val really tried hard to be friends with Mary. She talked and wrote about their relationship in loving terms, but when you look between the lines, Val put the work in.

Gay Men’s Chorus celebrate Beverly Sanders’ birthday!

Besides Rhoda herself, did any character on the MTM show ever say Rhoda was unattractive, frumpy or fat? Well, maybe Phyllis made some disparaging remarks but she made disparaging remarks about everyone. I don't think even Mrs. Morgenstern ever said Rhoda was unattractive, frumpy or fat. It was all in Rhoda's self-deprecating remarks about herself, only in how she saw herself.

I’m not ready for this thread to end. 😢

R589, just as a new Kennedy thread is always around the corner, so is another MTM one.

R587 that’s the gayest thing I’ve ever seen! Nancy Dussault, Charlotte Rae, JoAnn Worley, Carole Cook and motherfucking Mary Jo Catlett being serenaded by a gay men’s choir?! Off the charts gay!

Yeah, the character of Rhoda was originally conceived as being unattractive but then they loved Harper and cast her and even MTM has said that it became all about Rhoda's self-perception. Rhoda was supposed to be slightly overweight (they padded her sweatsuit in an early epi where she and Mary are exercising) and she would have been quite 'unusual' as a Jewish woman with a NY accent in traditionally Nordic and blonde Minneapolis, but no, she was never supposed to be unattractive. Everyone could see that Harper had a more tradionally beautiful face than the 'cute' MTM, though Mary was dancer thin and they emphasized that in costuming all the time on the show.

Valerie Harper was really overweight when she did TMTMS and then lost it when she going to her fitness coach Tony, whom she later married. She did interviews at the time about how much weight she had lost and attributed her success to him.

This is the only article I could find. The LA Times articles from back then are paywalled.

Valerie Harper says she is a size four and weighs 115 to 118 pounds. And those facts amaze her. As television's Rhoda, Valerie, as she a prefers to be called, says she battled blubber for nine years, the kind that brings a 5-foot-6 frame up to 160 pounds. At her suite in the Plaza Hotel the other day, she said the war on calories went on in real life, too not just before the television cameras. "All those 'fat' jokes in the script hit home," she said.

The last Rhoda episode was filmed Nov. 3, 1978, and Valerie weighed around 134. She turned to movies, hoping to shed the situation comedy stereotype character Rhoda." First, she worked in "The Last Married Couple in America," which has not been released. Then she acted in "Chapter Two." a new movie based on the play. That was pound-shedding time. There was a swimsuit sequence and Valerie said it terrified her.

"The cameras put on 15 pounds," she said. "And my thighs didn't need it." To get thighs and the rest of her anatomy camera-ready, Valerie said she rang up Tony Cacciotti, an actor, gymnast and fitness consultant-to-the-stars. He came to her house at Malibu Beach in California at the end of June and got her started on the diet and exercise way to a size four and 115 pounds. Valerie said he changed not only her body but her life. She said she and Tony fell in love and now live together. She says he changed not only her body but her life. .

R55, you’re right! I sensed those “flashes of coldness”, on the MTM show, in the last two seasons.

I remember when “Chapter Two” was released, some of the reviews pointed out how thin Valerie Harper was, and not always in a complimentary way.

Mary Richards in the last two seasons had evolved from the pushover she was in the first two seasons.

Super thin Valerie in Chapter Two.

Valerie wasn’t bad in Chapter two but she was overly memorable either. She was kind of just there. Though there was talk of an Oscar nomination for it.

Ann wedgeworth played the role on Broadway and u can’t help but wonder how she did it.

There’s some on Mary’s desk!

Valerie was quite thin and blonde in "The Last Married Couple in America", as Natalie Wood's promiscuous girlfriend.