Love and Death.

Should be titled "Done to Death."

There's already been a book, an early '90s TV movie, and Hulu's miniseries last year. All were very well done in their different ways, and I find it hard to imagine there's anything left to mine from this material.

I'll watch anything with Lily Rabe.

This cast is definitely better than the Hulu cast.

Candy thread, for reference.

Thanks, r4!

Was Allan that unattractive?

I watched the first episode, and it's not bad.

Watching the first episode now and I like the creative opening credits. Nicole Kidman is an EP.

I like Krysten Ritter as Candy's red head sidekick.

Me too, r9!

BOO to no curly perm hair on Candy. I read Elizabeth Oleson refused to do it. That should have been a deal breaker.

Couldn't she have worn a wig?

Is Olsen really related to those two ugly trolls?

Kirsten Dunst is married to this?

A pros and cons list before having an affair?

I know this is gonna sound crazy, but between the X-Men franchise and the Marvel cinematic universe, there are what, five actresses with Academy Awards? And I still think Elizabeth Olsen is the best actor in that whole universe.

Olsen is my favorite actress from the MCU. I like her more than ScarJo, Zoe Sadana, Karen Gillian etc.

Betty was insufferable!

I really liked Hulu's series -- Melanie Lynskey was terrific. Weird that this story is being re-told AGAIN so soon although I do love Olsen

I hate Elizabeth Olsens’s face. There’s just something about it that makes her unwatchable.

Olsen is great in this, but the whole refusing to get a perm thing is weird. She's an actress.

They do mention Allan's perfect penis.

Betty's family was upset about the Hulu series and how she was portrayed. They didn't like how she was portrayed as mopey dopey annoying whiner type. From the first three episodes of the HBO Max series, the take on Betty seems a bit toned down compared to the Hulu series.

Great soundtrack!

R24 I agree I really liked the song selections.

I binged the 3 available episodes. It’s terrifically entertaining and Olsen is so good in the role. I’m loving it. I liked the Hulu series. This is much better.

Does anyone else get Michelle Pfeiffer vibes from the Olsen girl? I actually applaud her for saying no to the perm. Bad wigs and hair styling can really distract from otherwise great performances. I do, however, feel she's portrayed as WAY too pretty for Candy.

I thought Jessica Beil did a decent portrayal on the Hulu series, but there were times that perm or wig was distracting as fuck.

Oh...never mind.

The Hulu version actually has better reviews than this one.

I can't stand Biel, I can't put my finger on it, but I think it's her husband.

Biel has always pinged as a dyke. I have wondered if it's a beard marriage.

Agree, r32.

I actually read the book recently (written in the 80's/early 90's?)

Anyway. The man Candy had the affair (husband of the wife she axed) had a "perfect penis"-

The book said that..

Also, these fuckers were all kind of weird looking in real life. kind of homely.

The 1990's version with Barbara Hershey is the gold standard for this story.

And the poor lady murdered sounded like a real "drip" as my grandmother used to say....

Just an unhappy and miserable chick. off putting-

I read the book, too, r34. Probably one of the best true crime books I have ever read.

The real Candy.

Olsen also is not wearing glasses like Candy. She is too attractive for the part.

I saw a recent picture of Jesse Plemons and he has lost weight.

This is a Facebook link so hope it works, you can see the whole cast and Jesse Plemons is looking good now

R36- It was excellent!!

Candy was considered to be one of the most attractive women in Wylie.🤨

Yeah, when you look at the people involved in this case, it makes you realize / remember that married people with kids in the heartland looked old and stodgy circa 1980. They weren't fat (as they are today), but their styling aged them beyond belief. Short perms for the women, polyester slacks with big-ass striped ties for the men, and both sexes wore enormous glasses that dwarfed their features.

These people were all barely in their thirties!

You know who would have made a better Candy?

I like the HBO version, but, yes, Elizabeth is too good looking.

It’s very good so far but Jesse Plemmons is hard to look at.

[quote] Betty's family was upset about the Hulu series and how she was portrayed. They didn't like how she was portrayed as mopey dopey annoying whiner type.

I'm loath to admit this, but Jessica Biel is a much better actress than I ever thought she would be. I didn't see her version of Candy, but she's been doing some incredible work in tv mini series. I think I saw one episode of the family show she was on as a teen and thought she was annoying and pretty, but that was it.

^( or a five time Razzie award nominee!)

[quote]Is Olsen really related to those two ugly trolls?

Can you not tell by the fact that she looks exactly like them?

FWIW, I don't think Elizabeth Olsen is actually a real person. She's what happens when the Olsen twins use their powers and combine into their ultimate form, the uni-Olsen.

I always think of Elizabeth Moss when I see Elizabeth Olsen’s name (I couldn’t pick the latter one out of a lineup), since Moss played Peggy Olsen on Mad Men.

[quote] I'm loath to admit this, but Jessica Biel is a much better actress than I ever thought she would be.

Why? She’s a wonderful actress. Being beautiful and having talent are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Thank you for drawing us that diagram of your stupidity, r50

Aw r52, that was mean. Have a nice day!

2 episodes in and I prefer the Hulu version. Also the 1980’s TV movie is better

It's good! But don't tell me who's the killer! NO spoilers!

Is Jessica Biel that girl from 7th Heaven?

Olsen + Rabe = perfection.

I enjoyed Candy a lot. I normally like HBO series a lot but feel Candy is too fresh in my mind to start on this one. Anyone watched both? Is it better to wait and watch Love & Death in a few years?

[quote]Jessica Biel Replaces Elisabeth Moss In Drama Limited Series ‘Candy’ As Hulu Hands True-Crime Tale Series Order.

I'd rather see Elisabeth Moss.

In the Hulu version I can understand why Candy went nuts for Pablo Schreiber. I would too. Jessy Plemmons not so much.

[quote]I like Krysten Ritter as Candy's red head sidekick.

Like her, too! She has come a long way since Gilmore Girls!

[quote]Can you not tell by the fact that she looks exactly like them?

She doesn't look anything like those troll sisters of her.

We need to axe some questions.

R60 I thought Pablo looked hot with that stache and hairstyle.

When wil HBO release the final episodes?

R65 They are releasing 1 episode weekly until May 25th.

Thanks, r66!

By the end of the second episode i was just begging for the murder to happen - episode 1 of this one was good but it's so slow. 3 episodes of nothing.

Plemmons is just astonishingly fat and ugly in this. Not too-ugly-to-watch - worse, so ugly you can't take your eyes off him.

The Olsen clone is really good as 'Candy' - overall I like the series so far. The fat one is gross and Betty is an unbalanced loon. I watch for entertainment/escapism not to nitpick every facet of the story or character. My POV regarding the fat one and Betty is just that, nothing more.

[quote]Plemmons is just astonishingly fat and ugly in this.

Truer words have never been said!

Plemmons played the overly dorky type perfectly. But I could not imagine any being so perfect that I'd overlook his fat and ugly. Odd casting.

I ended up rewatching Candy over the weekend and it's much better than Love and Death so far. Melanie Lynskey plays Betty far more believably than Rabe, who is kind of disconnected and hard to sympathise with. I do wonder if maybe the family's criticisms over Lynskey's Betty have made Rabe put less emotion into it. Even though Lynskey's Betty was annoying and whiney, I still felt empathy for her but feel nothing for Rabe's version.

Also, the pacing is a lot better and it doesn't drag as much. I'll still finish Love and Death though if the next episode is an improvement on the last 3.

Candy on Hulu kept my attention. This storyline is more drawn out and I am finding it a bit boring.

R73 this version was filmed before Candy. It sat on the shelf for a while.

Love and Death is just such a blah title. Murder in a Small Town and even Candy are much better. The book is wonderful, but has a terrible title: Evidence of Love.

The only "Love and Death" to discuss.

R73 I think they ought to have let it sit on the shelf. The Hulu version just seems so much better.

It might have held my interest if Rabe and Olsen had the affair, and conspired to murder Plemmons.

Jesse must have lost 200 pounds.

I prefer this version. Can't stand that woman married to that former boy band member.

R81 I have never been a Biel fan but maybe her being more unlikable for me was a better fit for Candy.

You do have a point, r82!

Did Alissa enjoy The Empire Strikes Back?

I think Elizabeth should get an Emmy nomination for episode 4.

Elizabeth is too nice - Jessica plays Candy as a real psychopath (which she obviously is).

I can't believe Candy is a family therapist now.

I think Elizabeth plays Candy as people perceived her to be.

Yeah, I agree about the latest episode, R85. I couldn't take my eyes off of her. That was some super fine acting all throughout.

Elizabeth is the talent in that family.

I hope Elizabeth gets an Oscar bait type role and wins an Oscar someday.

Alissa got a peppermint every time she put her head under the water?

Damn! Jealous!

Episode 5 available now.

Why didn't Olson just wear a wig for the part? I barely remember this already? Why did she kill the other woman?

[quote]Why did she kill the other woman?

The claims Betty (whose husband she had an affair with) attacked her first.

She*, not the*

Worth watching just for Olsen alone!

Elizabeth Olsen is magnificent in this!

Agree, Olsen created a pretty unique character.... is she totally crazy of not? Oh, ya, she's crazy as a loon, though with a good wardrobe.

Episode 5 was excellent - Elizabeth Olsen was Candy Montgomery! The acting by all was great. It was mentioned up thread about Jesse Plemons (Allan Gore) being fat (which he is in the role) but his acting melts away the pounds to a certain extent. He is great in this role. I recall season 2 of Fargo in which he was some kind of small town butcher (or something like that) and was great in that as well.

Jesse Plemons and Elizabeth Olsen are phenomenal in this.

What is the advantage of releasing shows like this (limited series) weekly as opposed to dropping the episodes all at once for bingeing? Viewers want to binge their content. I’m sticking around for this one, but I often forget about or lose interest in shows that I have to wait to watch as episodes are released.

r100 - I agree - HBOMax made the first two episodes available right off then the others were one a week up to the 5th one. I will just wait until the last two are dropped then rewatch the 5th one then the last two. The most recent one (as I noted above) was top notch - this was my first exposure to Elizabeth Olsen. For some reason I thought she was one of those creepy twin sister clones. I watched a recent movie on HBO 'Ingrid Goes West' in which Elizabeth Olsen and Aubrey Plaza were the lead characters. It was a quirky movie (which I like) and it was a worthwhile watch. That Aubrey Plaza (White Lotus Season 2) plays some offbeat characters and her most weird was 'Life After Beth' playing a reincarnated zombie or something like that.

Anyway, I look forward to the conclusion of this limited series. There are those that saw the other versions of this story but from episode 3 on this one has certainly been worth the time.

I’m rewatching Candy while waiting for the final two episodes of Love and Death to be released.

The portrayals of Candy Montgomery are very different in each of these series. Candy is much more likable, softer/kinder, in Love and Death. She’s portrayed as arrogant and self centered/self serving/self involved in Candy. I’m left wondering what the real life Candy was really like.

The same can be said regarding the portrayals of Betty. Thus far, Candy devotes more time to developing Betty’s character. Melanie Lynskey is phenomenal. Which portrayal is the more accurate depiction of Betty? They are so different.

[quote]What is the advantage of releasing shows like this (limited series) weekly as opposed to dropping the episodes all at once for bingeing? Viewers want to binge their content. I’m sticking around for this one, but I often forget about or lose interest in shows that I have to wait to watch as episodes are released.

I agree! When all the episodes are available I'll re-watch the whole thing again.

Elizabeth Olsen is impeccable in this!

New episode out!

Another great episode!

Betty's lawyer: It doesn't matter if Betty fucked 100 men, only that she won't do it again!

And, yes, amazing soundtrack!

Sorry, Candy's lawyer.

- Can I have a popover before grace?

- No, you may not.

Love Elizabeth Olsen!

Are the pictures shown during the trial scenes the REAL crime scene pictures? They sure look like it.

Betty GORE indeed.

Those were pretty grotesque photos. Eck. I doubt they're the real ones, though. We've seen all this before in movies and true crime docs, but the acting in this is fantastic.

Next week Candy takes the stand. Can't wait!

There's definitely an Oscar on Elizabeth's future.

I had to look up popover recipes the minute I was done watching the latest episode.

And you can't have one before grace, r113!

[quote]I had to look up popover recipes the minute I was done watching the latest episode.

And I had to look up Serax!

[quote]I had to look up popover recipes the minute I was done watching the latest episode.

You could have asked for Greg's help.

I have always loved Nicole Kidman until her recent strange TV choices. The Undoing was just bad and then Nine Perfect Strangers was bad and bizarre.

I worry her poor judgment may suggest that her being an EP on this doesn't bode well for the writing.

This thread inspired me to watch A Killing in a Small Town

Where is A Killing in a Small Town available for viewing, [R118]?

R119, I'm not r118, but the whole movie is available on Youtube, for free.

You can watch it on Youtube, r119.

You can watch the whole movie on Youtube, r119. For some reason DL won't let me post the link.

Oops, turns out I had ignored myself.😵‍💫

The late 1970s/early 1980s were such a dreadful time for fashion.

Does anyone here actually believe Candy's version of events?

[quote]Does anyone here actually believe Candy's version of events?

It is possible that Betty attacked her first, but that doesn't justify the overkill.

It's amazing she was acquitted

During the trial Allen gore said Betty was the only one who knew where the ax was, so, I do believe at some point she grabbed the ax. But who knows if she tried to hit Candy or not.

Christina!!!!!

Half of Betty's face was completely gone and the other side was pretty mushed up. No way was it self defense.

A few thoughts about the ax:

If Betty was the only one who knew the whereabouts of the ax and did indeed go after Candy first, what an odd weapon of choice. Why not just grab a knife? Or hammer? Why a bulky ax? Was it in a handy location off the laundry room?

Allen said only Betty would have known the location of the ax. Candy had previously been in Betty and Allen’s house when Allen wasn’t home. How does he know she never went into the garage? She may have seen the ax prior to the day of the murder. Would choosing an ax as a murder weapon suggest the murder was premeditated?

If Candy did kill Betty in self defense, “overkill” doesn’t seem completely unusual for someone in a fight or flight situation. My mind goes to the Houston dentist who repeatedly ran over her husband at a hotel after seeing him there with his mistress. I think a person can go into a state of shock and their brain shuts down and they are acting and reacting on emotion and instinct. Kind of an out of body experience. If Candy was acting in self defense, I have empathy for her.

Knowing how meticulous Candy was (planning the affair, the “affair contract”, planning the liaisons, etc.) one would expect Candy to have been more meticulous in planning Betty’s murder if the murder had indeed been premeditated. That said, if she chose the ax as the weapon thinking no one would suspect a woman as the killer, perhaps there is an argument that there was premeditation.

It's very concerning when people with narcissistic or psychopathic tendencies go into the field of psychology/psychiatrist.

*psychology/psychiatry

Great post, r131!

Don't you just want this hanging on your living room wall?

Based on the visit to the psychiatrist, Candy certainly had major issues from her childhood that would cause her to snap when being accosted with an ax. I presume the shrink will be called as a witness.

The thing that makes this version so different than "Candy" is that Elizabeth Olsen is beautiful and likeable. You want her to get off. In the other, she just seems deranged.

New (last?) episode already out.

Oh my goodness. The axe scene. I was NOT expecting that! Fucking gruesome!!

It's so bizarre that they allowed the hypnosis testimony at trial.

I guess the 1980s were a different time.

[quote]Oh my goodness. The axe scene. I was NOT expecting that! Fucking gruesome!!

Amazing scene! And yes, fucking gruesome!

Olsen is amazing! And yet Jennifer Lawrence has an Oscar.

I feel baited-and-switched.

Whoever is responsible for this series soundtrack: 👏👏👏.

Candy's lawyer in the shower was hot!

I had no idea that Candy's lawyer committed suicide in 98.

Any recent pictures of Candy?

Elizabeth Olsen is fantastic

Add to the comments here about Olsen. I'd thought she was great in martha martha martha martha or whatever that movie was, and then she got swallowed up in the superhero cloud of crap (I think actors are getting big bucks for these comic book movies but, to me, stop being actors...) and I'd forgotten her. In Love and Death she did that hard thing to play a basic forms, big footprint character - a cliche: southern christian housewife... and make her individual and "subtle" in her broad brush details.

Tom Pelphrey is HOT in this as Candy’s lawyer. He definitely thinner (and tanner) than I’ve ever see him. Good for Kayley Cuoco for getting that D.

I loved her in Wind River - horrifyingly depressing movie, but amazing music, cinematography, and she was great.

I hope she continues to take on good roles. She's got the skills for an Oscar nod/win at some point. I wonder how she is in real life, though. I hope she's not a mega, narcissistic cunt who treats people like shit. Anyone heard anything about her?

just started and I do miss the perm

Believe me, R152, you'll forget about the perm.

Elizabeth Olsen is that good!

Why the fuck haven't Tom Tom Pelphrey's nudes leaked

So, Candy and Love & Death are in contention for Emmys in the same season? After Barbara Hershey’s triumph with the role in 1990?

Not hearing a lot of buzz around either of these productions.

My impression from the 1st episode of Love & Death is that this is boring, by the numbers stuff. I was disappointed that this started with a slow pan around someone’s living room, the community, all these dull drone shots of the town… This is should’ve started immediately with the character, defining who she is with behaviour instead of all this total cliche stuff about suburbia. So boring.

They also make quick work of establishing the victim as a total bitch, so she’s completely unsympathetic, even going so far as to cast Lily Rabe (joke - I love Lily Rabe but she’s never played anyone sympathetic).

Not sure I’ll get very far with this. Also, Jessie Plemmons’ hair. Really? Is he supposed to be some Dutch boy? And Patrick Fugit, really? How did Elizabeth Olsen wind up married to him? It seems more like she’s babysitting. Elizabeth Olsen is too BIG for this town. I wouldn’t be surprised if she takes an ax to the whole place.

I’m don’t get the point of retelling this story.

Also, wouldn’t it be great if later there’s a scene where Candy enters the court room and - everybody gasps! - she has a perm!

They should’ve done that.

There should be a content warning for all the Jessie Plemons shower scenes in Episode 2.

The music cues in this are TOO much.

I heart [R157]. Still chuckling.

Erm, Candy seems guilty AF.

Would also like to note that the 13th of June 1980, the day of the murder, was also the wide release date of Stanley Kubrick’s The Shining, which would seem relevant to these events.

Instead of The Empire Strikes Back, Candy could’ve been watching The Shining.

Does anybody in this town ever call the police?

OMG. All those people sitting around the house, at a crime scene, smoking? WTF?

I’m guessing Candy gets off due to the prosecutor’s’ incompetence.

Also, a lot of The Gore’s neighbours, like Richard and Jerry, seem gay.

The music cues in this are so bad. They’re trying so hard to do a Jean-Marc Vallee thing but it just doesn’t work.

This is some HIGH camp.

I want Don Crowder to be my lawyer and Candy Montgomery to be my mommy.

I find Tom Pelphrey quite hot

What a bizarre ending. For some reason I kept thinking Mona Lisa Vito was going to show up and take the stand.

And that bizarre “WEHT” sequence. The director really did not have control of this material. Barely landed the plane.

Watching Candy now. See if the perm makes a difference.

Does Raul Esparza always over act so wildly?

r171 Candy is superior

There were things I liked about both of them. The courtroom sequences were better in L&D, as was the defence attorney Crowder.

I liked the production design in Candy better, which was far more evocative of the time. L&D is too contemporary to really seem like the late ‘70s. In Candy, the inclusion of the David Soul song was worth every ridiculous needle drop in L&D, with its strained efforts to provide a musical commentary to pad out the running time. But I thought L&D staged the murder better. Tonally, this is a challenging story to tell and I thought Candy nailed that more consistently though it did lose its way in the court proceeding - probably because Kelly is a former lawyer, he really nailed how Crowder made his case and convinced a jury; Candy made it seem more like hocus pocus.

Both actresses did a great job with the role of Candy but Biel seemed grounded in something far closer to the truth of her character, whereas L&D harnesses the charisma of Olsen and her creation of a character facing these circumstances to drive the entire series; Olsen, with her drive for perfection and concern about her social standing, makes Candy seem more like a Douglas Sirk heroine. Biel is more earthy and slovenly, which makes her seem both more authentic and of the time period. Olsen is a marvel but is also just riffing on the character, making her more her own. Biel transforms herself to be Candy. In Biel’s hands she seems less preposterous, more confused and limited in her thinking. Olsen plays her more as a force of nature who is used to getting her own way, steamrolling over everyone in the process.

I liked the way Candy made less of the affair with Allan Gore and portrayed it as squalid as it likely was. L&D elevated it at the expense of the Betty Gore character, however she wasn’t as marginalised as she was in Candy. In L&D she seemed part of the larger community, if amusingly prickly. In Candy, she just seemed of another time and place altogether, ostracised.

When they flashed the date of the murder in L&D, I immediately flagged that it was the release date of The Shining because I was there - I was 13 years old and some of the neighbourhood ladies talked by mom into going a few weeks before and I was included because I was friends with all the ladies and had read the book. We were excited and planned to go opening night, and we did. (And I went to a matinee of it again with my grandmother and some cousins.) It was a part of my personal history as well. Though it was mentioned once in L&D, I liked the way they referenced it repeatedly in Candy and kind of suggested that was perhaps where Betty Gore got the idea to use the ax. That was very cleverly done. There were things I liked about both of them.

*went to a matinee the next day, …