Star Trek: Picard - The Final Season - the sequel.

the guy playing his son, who played the guy joe tied up naked, in a chair, in you season 4, has given me a new kink

I'm actually sad tomorrow is the last episode. Given how much I thoroughly hated S1 & S2, this is a surprising turn of events.

I'm going to concern troll on this...I'm extremely concerned that they're not going to stick the landing on this.

As much as I've enjoyed the ride, if they fail to bring it to a satisfying close that addresses the key issues raised by the season, it will be a failure and will color how I view what has been a fun ride for the past nine weeks.

Will it be Got/BSG/Lost or will it be as good as All Good Things.

If Mulgrew isn't in the final episode, I'm gonna shove the remote control up my ass! And as an exclusive oral top, I am very much NOT going to enjoy the sensation.

We were promised cameos, so where the fuck are all the Voyager and DS9 folk?!

[quote]We were promised cameos, so where the fuck are all the Voyager and DS9 folk?!

Tuvok, Ro, the entire TNG cast, the Enterprise D?

How many more cameos do you want?

Really terrific episode...BUT...

Should have just ended at the closing credits.

We really, I mean REALLY did not need that tacked on bit at the very end.

And we really REALLY REALLY did NOT need HIM back again.

r5 That's literally just one cameo, the rest is all TNG.

Whatever, I thought this was a wonderful sendoff, even though I thought the season as a whole was just okay. Discovery still wins with the CG, but these were some of the best visuals in all of Trek. Still pissed there was no Mulgrew, but I hope she turns up in Legacy if that ends up being a thing. Tuvok with Seven was so delightful, Seven really is a scene stealer.

Deanna's Betazoid powers actually being useful for once, I fist-pumped at that redemption moment. So long, Alice Krige, fucked up beyond belief by your actual queen, Janeway.

Hope all you TNG nerds are sated now.

r6 I thought it was really fitting that it ended just how it all began. Plus, he looks great, like a proper silver daddy.

I'd much rather have seen Laris than him again.

Ugh! Now I hope we don't get a Legacy show knowing he'd be a big part of it.

[quote]Deanna's Betazoid powers actually being useful for once, I fist-pumped at that redemption moment.

And that she flew the ship without crashing it.

I watched Generations for the first time last week, so her con abilities (or lack thereof) were still fresh in my memory.

The ship was going to crash whether or not she was at the con.

She navigated it down safely with no casualties.

The episode was fine, not great, but adequate. It would have been a miracle if it had been able to deliver on the promise of the entire season. It felt rushed and some of the explanations made no sense, even for Trek technobabble - "line of sight" for fleet formation is utterly useless - why would anyone, even changelings and Borg trying to subvert starfleet, implement such useless tech.

Re-naming the Titan to Enterprise G was ridiculous. With Sovereign and Odyssey class ships flying around, having the Enterprise be a tiny nothing ship is ridiculous.

Bringing Q back, again, was ridiculous. I enjoyed the Walter Koenig voice cameo - was the implication that Pavel Chekov was the father of the Federation president? While I'm glad that Tuvok wasn't killed, the silly handwaving where the changelings kept them all alive made no sense.

It was moderately satisfying and certainly better than the previous two seasons and those season finales.

r12 At the end of the day, the ship's THERAPIST has no business navigating the flagship of the Federation anywhere. I'm sure everyone in the audience groaned at the time. Whatever, let's not relitigate that movie on this special day when the series ends for good.

I did think her skin looked great for her age in the closeups. Moisturise, kids!

[quote]How many more cameos do you want?

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

I'll have you EJECTED into space, Inigo!

[quote]Moisturise

Oh, dear.

[quote]The meaning of MOISTURISE is British spelling of moisturize.

You were saying, bitch?

My partner literally groaned when Q popped up again. He, like I, wanted to see Picard go to Laris at that bar.

Should have ended at the poker table. That was perfection.

Yes, the president was Chekov's son. He made reference to his father.

What's up with all this Laris love? Love the actress, but she was such a nothing of a character. Dumped unceremoniously at the start of the season for a reason.

[quote]The meaning of MOISTURISE is British spelling of moisturize.

Last time I checked, DL was in America.

I'll have Inigo and all you gringos EJECTED into space!

I have a feeling I am totally alone in this, but I loved the first season overall because of the psychology of it. It was about Picard's inner life and coming to terms with the end.

This season has been critically celebrated because of the cast reunion, but it's a Marvel-ized version of Star Trek, nothing more than a superheroes-versus-supervillains trope. It's not thoughtful. The Borg queen is just a typical cackling monster who we know will be defeated while screaming NOOOOOOOOOOO, Jack has superpowers instead of sensory abilities attributed to being a different kind of being, and even the Borg assimilation is a nonsensical comic book treatment. Why do Seven's facial implants remain (because they are metal components integrated into her physiology that can't be removed) while Jack's and Geordie's daughters' and all the others' metal facial implants magically vanish as soon as the evil borg queen is blown up?

I'm disappointed.

I did enjoy it for the nostalgia and familiarity but this was a really mindless comic book-y interpretation of a thoughtful science-fiction series. Boo.

So what happened to the Enterprise-F?

I'm just happy Raffi got a happy ending with her family. Love that Worf! Truly Trek's MVP.

Can your former lover also be your first officer???

Does this mean Jeri is getting her own show? She did kinda earn it. This series is called Picard and she seems to have equal emotional importance to Picard and is symbolically his parallel with the Borg connection and the haunted-childhood connection.

r24 Good breakdown, the times have changed too much since then. For whatever reason, the fans clearly wanted the series to go out on a "pew pew pew" note and that's exactly what we got.

I don't even want to think about the whole Changeling-Borg thing, none of that makes any sense to me, it just makes my brain hurt.

Jack oozed sex appeal in his leather Borg suit.

By all means lose the head gadgets, but keep the sexy lower leather stuff.

I felt many tingles!

I thought Alice Krige was great.

The one true Borg Queen got her own appropriate and send-off. Picard's story isn't complete without Krige's Borg Queen, either.

I disagree with r24 - while there is some truth to what he wrote, you HAVE to give credit where credit is due. There were some excellent, well-acted moments this season that delved deeply in characters we all thought we knew.

>The moment when Beverly comes to the bridge and wordlessly tells Picard that Jack is his son. Their subsequent conversation in sickbacy - "I thought I could protect my son. I didn't know if I could protect yours."

>Ro and Picard in the holo Ten Forward - "you broke my heart. And your broke mine" - and their in-person goodbye before she boarded the shuttle.

>Shaw's speech about the first time he met Picard.

>Even the fan service moment when Seven describes what Voyager meant to her.

As critical as I am of this finale, the season overall hit with more than merely fan service and fist pumping moments.

THANK YOU r12! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Am I the only one that thought Seven making her former (or current) lover Raffi her First Officer VERY problematic. That seemed like such a goofy move in the most inappropriate sort of way.

Also, what the fuck happened to that glorious Enterprise-F. I recall Admiral Shelby getting fucked up but not the ship. Making the inferior Titan the new Enterprise just doesn’t make sense.

There was a snippet of a news broadcast talking about the Enterprise-F being set to be decommissioned.

And considering Riker made his wife the counselor on the original Titan...

I’ve never seen this show. I’m just dropping into this thread to say that Patrick Stewart is still one sexy daddy. Carry on.

r34, Deanna was Riker’s wife who had served many years with Riker even before they got married and they didn’t have nowhere near the drama that Raffi and Seven had. Ship’s Counselor is one thing. I think that’s more tolerable and appropriate than First Officer. Just my opinion.

Worf had some great moments, the threesome, the hidden phaser, the snoring when it was all over, etc.

Nice ending. I liked the potential setup for a new show at the very end (could it be called mid credit scene?).

What I didn't get was how the Borg Queen made the Changelings believe that she had the upper hand and they, Vadic, were easily replaceable? Bitch was alone (there are absolutely no Borgs in the universe at that point`? What about the ones from season 2?) and slowly dying.

[quote]What I didn't get was how the Borg Queen made the Changelings believe that she had the upper hand and they, Vadic, were easily replaceable? Bitch was alone (there are absolutely no Borgs in the universe at that point`? What about the ones from season 2?) and slowly dying.

This was one of my biggest complaints with the pacing of the finale. They spent so much time in the build-up in the first few episodes, then rushed at the end.

Some of the details simply don't make sense. They needed to explain why the Borg didn't simply assimilate a few thousand people, what happened to all the worlds and billions of people that the Borg had previously assimilated, even if Janeway had destroyed the unimatrix complex in Endgame - wasn't the whole point of the Borg "the many that are one." If ANY Borg survived, they essentially all did. What was stopping the Borg queen from simply assimilating less advanced races until they could build up their strength again.

While I supposed you could say that the changelings just wanted to destroy starfleet and the Federation, it seems like the changelings didn't really have an endgame, either. They seemingly couldn't be assimilated, but they could be killed. What would have stopped the Borg from wiping them out once they destroyed starfleet?

I don't want or need an info dump or expositionary speeches. But, they probably needed to modify the season so that the the final two episodes had more story to it so it filled three episodes.

If Raffi had been on the cube with the guys as it exploded, I can just imagine as she beamed up to the D, her parting line to the Queen would have been,,,,"Bye Bitch!".

I'm contemplating binging the entire season to see if my impressions change if I can watch it without taking week long breaks between episodes.

As it stands now, E5 "Imposters" with Ro is probably the best episode of the season. Well-paced and directed. Excellent acting and satisfying story arc for Ro and Picard. It lays out the pressure and costs of his mentorship placed on people from Wesley to Ro and to a certain extent Riker and we learn more about each by seeing how each dealt with it.

Aside from the pilot, Tapestry and All Good Things... most Q episodes were shit.

He was absolutely atrocious on Voyager.

Why keep beating this dead horse???

I thought he was great in Voyager, awesome chemistry with Janeway.

Whatever happened to Q's son, Andrew?

Q and the Grey is considered one of the worst Voyager episodes then there was shit like True Q and Q-pid on TNG.

Then there was that lone awful time Q popped up on DS9. Total waste aside from Sisqo decking him.

Overall, I'm satisfied with the finale. It wrapped up the season's storylines well enough and gave the "Next Gen" crew a fitting sendoff. The season was far better than expected and had a lot of great moments -- not just fan service nods and cameos, but great character work and moments for each cast member (new and old) to shine. At some point, I'm going to binge watch the season to see if I react differently to the episodes.

I can understand the disappointment and frustration at the show going back to the Borg well again, especially after the first two seasons went there, also. But it makes sense for them to be the ultimate villain of the "Next Gen" crew and Picard. Bringing in the Pah-Wraiths or a villain from another series wouldn't have felt appropriate for a continuation of "Next Gen."

Seeing the Enterprise D navigating the inside of the Borg cube was kind of weird looking at times, especially when you think about just how big the Enterprise is supposed to be. President Chekov was an unexpected surprise. Great seeing Tuvok in person. The end being an overhead shot of the crew playing poker was a nice nod to the "All Good Things" ending.

I really hope Paramount sees the goodwill toward this season and gives the green light to the "Star Trek: Legacy" idea. I would love to see Seven as captain of the Enterprise G with Jack and La Forge's daughters as bridge crew.

I find myself strangely protective of our solar system, I actually bristled when I saw that Borg cube inside Jupiter's Great Red Spot. Anyone else like this?

On the other hand, it was one of the coolest Trek visuals ever and it showed just how enormous Jupiter really is. Not many gas giants featured in Star Trek as you can't go on away missions to them. They're kinda boring even to astrophysicists. Super pretty to look at, though.

Re: Laris If you go back and watch that first episode again knowing how the season turns out, that scene between Laris/Picard really reads more like a goodbye scene. I think they left the state of Laris' and Picard's relationship deliberately ambiguous so fans can decide for themselves if they are still together. Based on the final scenes in the finale, it appears Picard remained on Earth (probably to be close to Jack) and he and Beverly may (or may not) be back together.

[quote]Why do Seven's facial implants remain (because they are metal components integrated into her physiology that can't be removed) while Jack's and Geordie's daughters' and all the others' metal facial implants magically vanish as soon as the evil borg queen is blown up?

The newer Borg were organically assimilated so the implants were born from the host body.

So the Borg’s ‘Hail Mary’ was to implant Picard with bio-nanites (or whatever they’re called) and hope that he, an octogenarian, would have a child that would inherit the nanites and become a broadcasting telepath?!

That sounds reasonable…

Matalas confirms some appearances he wanted but couldn't make happen due to time/budget constraints:

Janeway (dammit)

Harry Kim (as a Captain!)

Soji (meh)

Ro Laren (that makes no sense)

Matalas also reveals...

Adm. Shelby LIVES

Wouldn't mind ass-imilating the son.

Soji should have been there since she was Data's "daughter" throughout the first season and all the androids on her planet are based on Data. Given the nature of the themes about family this season, it would actually make sense.

Ro makes sense because the major theme of the entire season was Picard's legacy. Ro's departure was a crucial "failure" in his life. Resolving that conflict with her was unfinished business for him.

Kim and Janeway would have been fun and would also have fit into the theme of family for Seven. It's also been strange that she's been so disconnected from her friends on Voyager prior to Season 1 of Picard. However, there isn't really any unfinished business with her Voyager family. So, it falls into the nice to have fan service rather than story necessity.

R54 Or maybe they actually listened to the fans for a change and ran away sprinting from that whole godawful.

I maintain that "Death Wish" is the best Q episode, except for maybe "Best of Both Worlds".

[quote][R54] Or maybe they actually listened to the fans for a change and ran away sprinting from that whole godawful.

Well, if they "listened" to fans, or at least all the fan youtube channels, they would have bent over backwards to have MORE cameos.

Personally, I'm fine with what they had.

I had sufficient with Shelby and Tuvok - and Chekov.

R57 I was referring to the whole Soji and all the android BS from that season. Space orchids that can defeat Borg cubes but not Romulans, and so on. No problem with fanservice and cameos.

If only we hadn't lost René. Of course, this was a TNG reunion primarily, but it would have been great to see Odo, Kira, and Quark again briefly.

[quote]If only we hadn't lost René.

It really is a pity - he died in 2019.

Doing a changeling story and not having Odo beyond a quick and indirect reference from Worf felt a bit off.

I'm a bit bitter they didn't get Salome Jens for a quick cameo since the female changeling would still be in Federation custody as part of the treaty to end the Dominion War. In 2018, she voiced the female changeling in Star Trek Online. Even a voiceover without having to sit through makeup would have been fantastic.

R59 I had the same thought about Salome Jens. It would have even been cool for Vadic to assume her face and voice for a moment, whether or not they were saying the two were the same.

Plus hearing just one more gravely harrumphing "Quaaaaarkk" would have been great.

He wanted to reveal that Ro was still alive.

What would have been a good "closing of the circle" is if, in the final episode, the Federation is saved by the Founders. The Founder and Odo defeat the Borg Queen and tell the Federation that they've never met a race that could've destroyed them yet pulled back and saved them. The Founders were returning the favor. But such an ending wouldn't allow all the dick-waving that went on.

[quote]What would have been a good "closing of the circle" is if, in the final episode, the Federation is saved by the Founders.

While good writing required that it not only be Picard who saves the day, but it also had to occur from his "flaws" to bring his character arc to a satisfying ending.

That said, a Dominion fleet arriving to help Seven and Raffi would have been a nice touch although President Anton Chekov specifically warned everyone away from earth, so no allies or reinforcements were likely to come.

[quote]Even a voiceover without having to sit through makeup would have been fantastic.

No need for make-up.

She has the Female Founder's face now!

I wish you hadn't done that. That was the last Weyoun clone.

I did not expect to be so emotional about this ending. I'm not even that big a trekkie, but I have to admit, I really truly loved seeing them all back together and triumphing together in the end. Loved it.

Looks like for the most part people enjoyed this season a lot. Even the usual nitpicking is barely around. And people are engaged again. When was the last time that a Star Trek topic got a sequel thread here? Terry Matalas really got my respect for this accomplishment. At this point he is right up there along Michael Piller and Ira Behr. Oh the pressure now... Once he goofs, he will be called in line with Rick Berman.

I have a feeling that Star Trek Legacy is just a question of time and money right now. Paramount is probably closing negotiations with Matalas and actors as we speak. Paramount would not have approved scenes with the new Enterprise crew or Q if they didn't have specific plans with them already. Those were probably scenes they filmed 'just in case' and then approved their inclusion to the series finale once they saw that the available numbers and metrics were all trending in the right direction. Had reception been poor or mediocre, the scenes would not have been in the finale.

Agree, r67. I had started season one and gave up but decided to try again and also watch season two before watching this season. It was somewhat better than I remembered, but still not great, and then season two was a real slog, but somehow they really pulled it together for season three and it was wonderful all the way through.

Personally, I think both the Academy series and Section 31 series are a mistake as there is little interest among the fandom for them. Switching the Section 31 series to a movie will probably turn out to be a good move, and perhaps they should do the same for Academy. Season 3 of Picard has likely proved to be the best season of modern live action Star Trek.

R68 Matalas has moved on to other projects and has only stated that there has been discussions but nothing is near being green lit. There have been BTS rumors that there is professional jealousy over the success of Picard S3 and may be a reason that ST: Legacy actually never happens.

Please God...no more Q.

Interesting take:

R64 Asshole much? She's 87, jackass.

Now we finally have something to like about season1 & 2 - they make season 3 look SO MUCH better by comparision.

[quote]There have been BTS rumors that there is professional jealousy over the success of Picard S3 and may be a reason that ST: Legacy actually never happens.

Ultimately, Paramount is in control. If they want a Matalas run Star Trek: Legacy, it really doesn't matter what Goldsman wants. Paramount controls whether Goldsman's production company produces any Trek and has to be sold on an idea by Goldsman - he doesn't just get to do the shows he wants.

^^^I meant Kurtzman, not Goldsman.

[quote] There have been BTS rumors that there is professional jealousy over the success of Picard S3

Oohhh... give us the dirt, r70. Who is jealous? The hack who is currently heading DSC? Kurtzman? I can see why they would be jealous. But instead they should analyze the scripts and learn how to write for characters.

They better find a way to bring Shaw back, or else!!!!

r78, he’s dead Jim.

R78 Or else what? You and your friends will mail in all your used cum-rags and kill the executives with sharp edges?

Who ever feared an angry Trekkie?

It was a joke, R80. Now, go fuck yourself.

I don't mean to be a bitch, but Garret Wang and budget/scheduling do not belong in the same sentence. He literally has nothing else to do, he'd pay to be in a Trek show. It had to be something else, I'm certain of it.

So my exclusive oral top intuition was correct in that a Janeway cameo was in the making, but ultimately fell through. Can you imagine her pulling up on the "oh, I have something bigger in store for you" ship from Prodigy's first season cliffhanger ending? She gets all the best toys to play with because she brought all the best toys from the Delta Quadrant, and don't you forget it.

R82 Garrett Wang is as dead to Trek, Inc. as Manu Intiraymi and Denise Crosby.

He crossed King Berman back in the 90s, and it nearly got him shit-canned off the series. He was spared, but iced out after that. He also had a few feuds with line producers and semi-suits who hung around the set as Berman's eyes and ears. Wang was a wang to them, and they went back to the big cheese and snitched on him for being such a brat. They never let him direct, and they never gave him good stories in the later years of Voyager, and they left him to form his own convention-circuit business.

Manu (who played Icheb on Voyager) is out for defending Kevin Spacey.

Denise Crosby is out for quitting TNG after one season (and allegedly for calling Maury Hurley a tit-grabbing bully).

Shatner's still a prick to everyone he meets, but he's still too bloated an icon for them to shun him as they'd like to. He still puts some sugar in their bowl.

I think Wang's podcast was the final straw, he's such a perpetual victim in his own eyes, I had to stop listening to it and I'm the biggest Voyager fan ever. Everything is always ME, ME, ME with him.

R83 They brought Denise back, so false on that one.

I always thought Garrett Wang was a bit bitter about not having a larger role - his character never getting promoted stuck in his craw a bit.

Of course, you can always go on Cameo and ask him about it.

Shatner doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks - he's loaded and doesn't need anyone's charity.

Terry Matalas confirms that he left the status of Beverly and JL and Laris and JL's relationships deliberately ambiguous so fans can make up their own minds. However, in his mind Beverly and JL are together.

[quote]They better find a way to bring Shaw back, or else!!!!

[quote][R78], he’s dead Jim.

Matalas has specifically stated in an interview that if a Legacy show were to go, they've already discussed how to bring Shaw back. There was always a plan to bring Shaw back - somehow.

They even had a plan to bring Ro back, but couldn't. There was a scene on the Intrepid where Seven rescues both Tuvok and Ro from a prison cell. As much as I like Forbes, I'm glad they didn't bring Ro back.

As much as I like Stashwick, when death isn't really a consequence, it really eliminates all stakes from any situation.

What's Forbes doing these days that she couldn't join the Legacy show? Nothing, that's what.

All these actors trying to give off the impression they're busy when they should be making money instead. You're too old for these branding tricks, people, just take the fucking gig.

I believe Denise was proven correct about Hurley. Plus she's on the con circuit promoted right up there with Frakes, McFadden, Sirtis...

Never ever see Manu or Garrett (well really any VOY cast aside from Mulgrew) at shows.

DS9 is usually represented by Shimerman, Farrell, Visitor, Robinson...

ENT is DOA.

I'm starting to see Evan Evagora (Elnor) pop up now from PIC.

NuTrek...

Never see anyone from DISCO either aside from the gay dudes (forget their names) but they aren't there for Trek but rather their prior work.

Mount and Peck represent SNW and really work hard to promote the show.

R90 You get the sense that the TNG cast have always felt like a family, while the VOY and DS9 casts knew there were A-players and B-players, and the ENT cast were only there for a paycheck.

I loved Denise Crosby's documentaries on Trekkies, but I wish she'd do a third one focused on the cast members themselves. How do they feel about a first-run syndicated sci-fi show defining their entire career? How do they earn a living? How do they avoid typecasting? And why do so few of them ever surpass their Trek success after the show?

Garrett Wang produces conventions now, but it's odd that he rarely appears onstage at them. Roxann Dawson and Robbie McNeill became TV directors/producers. Picardo is still Picardo, and he and Ethan Phillips still have busy cameo careers. Beltran has gone full Unabomber, still bitter at the world. And Jennifer Lien might be in prison now. Tim Russ is...singing in lounges? And Kate is loving voiceover work these days, as it's a true backdoor for hungry actresses whose looks have changed.

[quote]And Kate is loving voiceover work these days, as it's a true backdoor for hungry actresses whose looks have changed.

You know, for some reason my first thought was the reason Mulgrew didn't cameo in Picard was that she's gained so much weight and looks very different from the Endgame version of Janeway. Other than slightly thinner hair on Frakes, none of the TNG folks look too different from the All Good Things versions. Of course, she did Orange, but that's completely different. Playing the same character invites people to compare her appearance - especially since you'd expect Janeway to be fastidious about her fitness.

She doing voice work on Prodigy - which I've enjoyed. Her holo Janeway was excellent and holo Janeway's "death" in their season finale was actually a bit emotional. If all we get is Janeway voice over, I can live with that.

Mulgrew was destined to be heavy. She was born with teeth.

All this talk about characters' deaths and comebacks has me regret again that Jadzia was killed off and not just sent somewhere on assignment. She wasn't just eye candy. Her character really resonated with viewers. And Farrell looks still great. She would have done well in NuTrek. But it is what it is now. As r87 says, dead characters really should stay dead or death becomes meaningless. Just stop killing them all the time. I wouldn't mind though bringing Farrell back as a related or even completely unrelated character.

R94 NuTrek delights in bringing back fan-favorite characters ONLY to kill them off in a single episode.

Please, don’t bring back Jadzia, or Janeway, or anyone we care about. They’re just going to die gruesomely so Baby Crusher and the Rainbow Coalition Bridge Cadets can keep being adorable.

This season of Picard was a slaughterhouse, not seen since Hawley’s “Fargo” on FX. Everybody dies. And I mean fucking everybody!

[quote]Other than slightly thinner hair on Frakes, none of the TNG folks look too different from the All Good Things versions.

Are you fucking kidding me with this? Marina is basically Jeannie Berlin and Gates looks like a CAT. Talk about rose-coloured glasses.

You bitches are so mean. I'll have you know Kate is on Ozempic and doing well. And yes, the writing for her character on Prodigy has been exceptional so far and she has been delivering stellar voice work.

I'm a bit confused about all the Enterprises.

So they couldn't "use" the E, but it wasn't Worf's fault. If the E isn't usable, does that mean she is still around somewhere?

Then we saw the F commanded by Shelby. We didn't exactly see her being destroyed but that may be implied if they get out the G.

Why did the show need the F and couldn't have Shelby command the E? Was there a copyright issue for using the E?

Hi, I'm the poster who didn't mind being spoiled. I just finished binging the last nine episodes. I watched the first episode and figured that the first couple of episodes were cast assembly and exposition I was right. But I must admit how much I enjoyed the journey. It was respectful of canon, had plenty of Easter Eggs and not too many Deus ex machinae. Can we all agree that the Borg is finally dead?

[quote]Are you fucking kidding me with this? Marina is basically Jeannie Berlin and Gates looks like a CAT. Talk about rose-coloured glasses.

Obviously, I meant the aged up older versions and obviously I meant that they were recognizable as those same people. And seriously, Worf and Geordi actually look better than the aged up versions.

Compare Mulgrew's appearance to older Endgame Janeway and there is a HUGE difference.

They really screwed over the Laris character. What was the point of even having her?

[quote]They really screwed over the Laris character. What was the point of even having her?

It's funny - Matalas has said he left it open whether Picard is with Beverly or Laris. However, in his mind, Picard is with Beverly.

In my mind, I think that he's with Laris. Twenty years of no contact with Beverly, but nothing has really changed. All the issues that existed in their relationship still exist. It doesn't matter that Jack's there now.

Also, I've always thought it was a bit creepy that Picard had a thing for his best friend's wife.

I see him with Laris, too. I don't see JLP as the type to dump his gf for a semi-regular side piece from 20 years earlier.

Co-parent, yes. Lover? Nope.

R97, the unofficial story about the Enterprise E is that after "Nemesis," Picard was promoted to admiral and made Worf its captain, but there was an incident that caused it to be destroyed or rendered unusable. Worf's "It was not my fault!" is a reference to this.

For any folks interested:

R97 It was stated early on in the season that the Enterprise-F was due for early decommissioning and would make it's final flight at Frontier Day. The status of the Enterprise-E is unknown beyond the fact it is "unusable." So either it was destroyed or involved in some odd anomaly thingy.

R101 I think Matalas decided to keep Picard's relationship status open-ended in case there is a Legacy series and they want to do something else with him or Beverly or Laris. Beyond Matalas' head canon, I think it's implied JL/Bev are together. My reason for that is when the season started he was supposed to be moving with Laris to some Romulan planet. In the finale he's clearly still living on Earth (where Bev is also stationed) as he and the TNG gang get together at 10 Forward regularly. While I love Laris, to me it makes sense he'd be with Beverly as he basically forgave her in the finale.

I get it that Paramount is hesitant to work on yet another life action show. There is a fair risk of oversaturation. They have a good thing going with SNW. The Section 31 movie may be a reason for Michelle Yeoh fans getting into Start Trek. I suppose the new Starfleet Academy show may get young viewers into the franchise. So if done right it may be a good idea.

If it's just a financial problem to realize yet another life action show - there should be a way around it. Paramount+ may not benefit from yet another Start Trek show. But maybe they can open up to the idea to make Star Trek not an exclusive P+ property any longer. I am sure AMZ Prime or Netflix would pay top dollars for Legacy (maybe not for Starfleet Academy).

[quote]I suppose the new Starfleet Academy show may get young viewers into the franchise. So if done right it may be a good idea.

I'd argue that doing a good "Trek" show works better in getting new and young viewers into the franchise. Star Trek 90210 will inevitably lean more heavily into YA content than Trek content. The balancing act will be a LOT harder with this kind of show. Ultimately, if you're interested in a soapy teen drama, rather than Trek, the drop off from new viewers gained will be massive.

Getting younger people into the franchise through Prodigy is a better play - like Star Wars did with the animated Clone Wars.

SNW is good, but there were definitely clunker episode, and they drift dangerously close to Star Diversity instead of Star Trek. I don't care about the abrasive butch flying the ship because they wanted to prove women can be at the helm. I'd much rather they spent more time with Number One and developing her character. I am VERY interested in what happened to her after Pike leaves the Enterprise after his accident. Surprisingly, Spock is working well, but rolling in Uhura was a bad idea. Frankly, they should have had an experienced Lt. Cmdr who went through the academy with Number One who was her best friend. If we want to play the diversity and inclusion card, we rarely get strong women best friends. Give me ride-or-die, Thelma-and-Louise women best friends (who aren't lesbian lovers) on Trek. THAT would be interesting and new.

[quote]Give me ride-or-die, Thelma-and-Louise women best friends (who aren't lesbian lovers) on Trek. THAT would be interesting and new.

Isn't that what Una and La'an are?

And Kira and Dax, if you want an earlier example.

Both Kira and Dax and Una and La'an are more older mentor relationships.

Kira was specifically intended to be mentored by Dax since Dax is actually and old man. La'an was a foundling that Una saved.

[quote] I don't care about the abrasive butch flying the ship

I didn't mind her flying the ship. But her constant backtalk irritated the hell out of me. If I am the captain, I need commands be executed. Don't need validation or feedback on everything and certainly not lengthy discussions with the crew when swift action is needed.

R110, exactly. More Sidney LaForge, less Tom Paris.

Clearly they should have show representation by having Jack have the big gay sex with some hot alien dude. Or maybe just a Borg ass toy when he is assimiliated.

Doesn't Strange New Worlds also have a butch con who talks back? I love how they just decided that's a lesbian position now.

And of course she triggers the DL queens, how predictable. As if you knew anything about what a captain wants or needs. Your homo ass would be on the comms, diddling that Uhura earpiece and being ogled by the captain. Or that stewardess in TOS who occasionally brings sandwiches and beverages to the boys on the bridge.

Sit yo ass down.

R113 Her name was Janice Rand, and she was a yeoman. She later finished her academy studies, became an officer, served as transporter chief of the Enterprise, and helped coordinate command's response to the Cetacean Probe that decimated Earth's oceans.

But, sure. Call her a stewardess, you lustful brute of a bull-dyke.

Picking up on r113's assumptions on what and who everybody is, here or on the show: I actually don't remember if Ortega's orientation was ever explicitly stated/confirmed. I don't think it was.

I mean, Melissa Navia seems incredibly lesbionic, but apparently isn’t.

Confused the hell out of me.

[quote] As if you knew anything about what a captain wants or needs.

r113, I think it's save to say that constant discussions and justifications are not your priority when your ship is under attack and quick decisions are needed. Consider this, you are already getting antsy just by reading remarks in online forums. I doubt you would be any more open for lengthy discussions when you need to make quick decisions during an attack.

[quote]I actually don't remember if Ortega's orientation was ever explicitly stated/confirmed. I don't think it was.

I don't really care all that much that she is or isn't butch. I think the bigger problem is that she constantly talks back in order to convey that she's a "cocky pilot" type character AND that cocky pilot type can be a woman.

It's bad writing that verging on insubordinate is being used as a substitute for good characterization.

Going back to PIC - it's astonishing how much the TNG crew developed in terms of chemistry. I remember the crew being quite stilted and almost sterile with each other. Compared with the crews on DS9 and VOY they were awfully formal. And Picard was never really part of that 'family'. In fact the poker game at the end of All Good Things was really the first game he joined in those 7 years. The chemistry started shining through in the movies. Not complaining. I just find the change in direction quite remarkable.

I mean, I think some of that was on Stewart, who by his own admission has a stick up his butt taking it all too seriously for the first few seasons.

If you want to know more about the early years of "Next Generation," specifically how messy they were, I recommend the documentary "Chaos on the Bridge," which Bill Shatner produced. It goes over how aloof Stewart was to the rest of the cast and how he gradually relaxed over time.

We need to talk about the elephant in the room: What happened to Terry Matalas? He used to be skinny.

[quote]It goes over how aloof Stewart was to the rest of the cast and how he gradually relaxed over time.

I remember how during...I think it was the fifth season...he refused to be on a special Good Morning America that was broadcasting from the Enterprise-D set because he was annoyed that they had the weatherman dressed in a uniform doing schtick, and he found it disrespectful.

R122 He aged

[quote]What happened to Terry Matalas?

[quote][R122] He aged

No, he's become a producer who hires actors and doesn't need to bother with his own looks anymore.

I recall that Stewart got pissed that people where showing up in Star Trek uniforms to watch his plays, and told them to knock it off.

I could sense that he was pissed.

I hope so, R75. I was kicked off a message board for speculating about professional jealousy...but it seems to fit here. Matalas has played it smart in how he talks about the possibility. He never criticizes his bosses.

Apparently, Paramount has registered StarTrekLegacy.com, so that’s encouraging.

[quote]Apparently, Paramount has registered StarTrekLegacy.com, so that’s encouraging.

I saw a video in which the person was saying that SNW had already been greenlit as a condition of Anson Mount even taking the role in Disco. All the rest, the petitions and such, was kabuki theater to build excitement for the show and make fans desperate to increase viewership. The source was a former Paramount marketing exec who used to "leak" info to this youtuber. Additionally, it was a plot to get people to tune in to Disco.

When asked about Legacy, this exec's response was, "well, it worked last time..."

I don't know if I believe it, but Kurtzman is using the same "we hear the fans" language he used when discussing SNW before they announced it. I'm betting that an announcement won't be made until the END of Disco's final season early next year.

I'm not saying that every new (Start Trek) show should be preceded by an enthusiastic petition. But any chance that Kurtzman heard loud and clear the crickets for the Academy show?

I guess I sound more bitchy than I want to. The Academy show can still be fantastic if it is written, directed and acted well. But it seems to be more of an uphill battle than Legacy. To me that's a sign to backbench Academy and pull Legacy to the front.

R131 The Academy show has been in planning since the fourth season of Discovery was in production and I think the decision to announce it when they did was to try and pacify fans who were very upset over the announcement ending Discovery. It seems clear that the Academy show was always planned to be Discovery's "replacement." There are some theories going around, take them with a grain of salt, that Paramount pushed up the announcement of Academy from First Contact Day to late-March due to the uptick in interest of social media engagement surrounding a potential Star Trek Legacy series. It's looking more and more that CBS and Kurtzman were not expecting Picard S3 to be the success that it has proven to be (given the poor critical and fan reception of the first two seasons). Indeed, the rushed decision to screen the final two episodes of Picard on IMAX are probably a testament to that fact. Kutrzman has also somewhat changed his tune about Terry Matalas as well. Early on, he seemed a bit dismissive of Terry's contributions but during the finale Q&A went out of his way to praise Terry.

The truth is, I don't think fans are particularly interested in an Academy series. The idea has been branded about for decades and has always been met with a "meh." What's happening is similar to what happened with Section 31 as a series. It was announced but the fans clearly wanted a Pike spin-off and so the money for Section 31 was funnelled over to SNW and S31 became a movie project. In all honesty, I think they should do the same with Academy. Turn it into a series of movies or something, and proceed with a Legacy series.

I am not one of those Kurtzman is the devil types, but I do think there is a fundamental misreading of what fans want from Trek. In a way, I think they've been betting on the idea that hardcore Trek fans will tune into anything with Trek in the title. While there is some truth to that, the numbers Picard S3 seem to pulling in suggests the show is having a wider impact due to its use of legacy characters.

[quote]R95: This season of Picard was a slaughterhouse, not seen since Hawley’s “Fargo” on FX. Everybody dies. And I mean fucking everybody!

Like who? Apart from Ro, Admiral Shelby, Captain Shaw, the new villain Captain Vadic, and the Borg Queen (for the umpteenth time), who died?

[quote]Like who? Apart from Ro, Admiral Shelby, Captain Shaw, the new villain Captain Vadic, and the Borg Queen (for the umpteenth time), who died?

Actually, Matalas has confirmed that Shelby did not die.

Apparently, a bit bigger budget and Ro wouldn't be dead either.

... and we never saw Shaw's dead body either. Yes he had a death bed scene, but we didn't actually see him die. Even that Seven/Tuvok scene did not confirm that he is indeed dead. For what I know he currently in rehab.

[quote] R132: The idea has been branded about for decades…

Oh, dear.

I don’t think Star Trek: Legacy is a good title for a new series. Legacy ties in with the past. They need to make any new shows accessible to bringing in new fans and new viewers, not just appeasing middle aged nerds as PIC S3 did. Frankly, I wish they’d stop using legacy characters altogether and do something completely different. When a franchise gets too fixated chasing its own tail, entropy sets in fast.

I did enjoy PiC s3 as it happens but I don’t think Matalas is a particularly good writer. When you take away all the blatant fanwankery the storyline barely holds together and has plot holes galore (the changelings working with the Borg just makes zero sense). If it had been the same writing on a season of DIscovery it would have been eviscerated.

Aside from Pike, Discovery used all new characters and, aside from a few bright moments (Michelle Yeoh), it quickly devolved into a mess. Most of that can be blamed on the writing, but having legacy characters gives something to anchor the show.

First season rolled out Sarek. Second season obviously rolled out Spock and Sarek. Spock is probably the second most iconic character in all Trek after Kirk.

SNW rolled out Uhura for no reason (Spock obviously makes sense on this show given the time period). They rolled out Kirk and are planning on more Kirk, More Kirk, MORE KIRK in S2.

Rolling out legacy characters does NOT guarantee a show will be accepted, let alone good.

People want this time period - post-Picard era of the Federation and Starfleet. Of necessity, it will include legacy characters who would be well-regarded as having been involved in the most important events of the past 30 years. In turn, as Jack pointed out - nepotism. When mom or dad is a superstar, the kid is going to have opportunities not afforded to others. These people will turn up.

Side question.

Seven of Nine - Captain Seven or Captain of Nine

Is the name like Ann of Cleaves or Maria de Santiago

[quote] When you take away all the blatant fanwankery the storyline barely holds together and has plot holes galore

I guess time will tell how the third season holds up. I think what Matalas captured well, better than others, is the essence of the characters in the stories, the Star Trek form of optimism and the excellent chemistry between the characters. I think he is extremely well skilled to write for characters, maybe at the expense of airtight plots.

Yes, he got the legacy characters right, but people also immediately connected with Jack and Shaw and the LaForge daughters. So, I would say viewers didn't like P3 just for the TNG characters (I know, you didn't go that far); they appreciated other characters, too. Something that DSC, especially in the last two seasons unfortunately could never accomplish. Ira Behr once said that great plots gets viewers to watch the initial airing of an episode. Great characters ensures successful reruns of that episode. I'd say that makes sense. We'll see.

[quote]Seven of Nine - Captain Seven or Captain of Nine

Captain Seven.

Although I did like the episode where they were brainwashed into thinking they were in WWII and she was a torch singer named Mlle de Neuf.

[quote]Yes, he got the legacy characters right, but people also immediately connected with Jack and Shaw and the LaForge daughters.

I agree that Jack and Shaw were both very strong characters. Much of the credit also goes to the actors. I mean, Jack is in his early twenties if you do the math, but Speleers who is mid-30s makes it work.

The more I saw Shaw over the season, the sexier Stashwick became. He's much more handsome and sexy now than he was when he was younger.

R143 Stashwick is the rare breed of white guy who gets hotter as he ages.

^ When I saw him first, I actually thought he was of Arab descent.

^ At first glance, I thought he was Cheyenne Jackson.

[quote]^ At first glance, I thought he was Cheyenne Jackson.

He does have the same crazy eyes that Jackson has.

I spotted a writer's mistake.

First couple of episodes state that Picard hasn't seen or heard from Beverly Crusher in "twenty years." No one in their circle has. The upshot is that, when she realized she was pregnant with Jack, she took off, to keep him safe from the bullshit which constantly rages around Picard. It's hammered home, again and again: it's been twenty years.

Then, either in episode three or four (offhand I don't recall which), Picard and Jack pop into the Holodeck version of Ten Forward for drinks and a talk. Jack wants to talk about what he calls "the elephant in the room," which turns out to be Picard's baldness; when will it happen to him? 'How old are you?' Picard asks him. 'Twenty-three, twenty-four?' Jack nods. 𝐵𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑐𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑏𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑎𝑠𝑒.

Look, I can understand somebody's potential discomfort with Picard sharing a drink with someone who's under 21, but somebody really dropped the ball here. Jack's twenty years old, perhaps even nineteen. But for the sake of this scene, they've fudged his age up to twenty-four, as well as later, with his having joined the crowd of cadets questioning Picard in Ten Forward to ask him about family, being set some five years in the past, back when he was supposedly nineteen.

Star Trek Nemesis took place in 2379. The last time Beverly saw Picard was a few months after the Shinzon incident. The date in S3 is 2401. Jack is 22 years old (in an odd DL twist since he is 22, but looks 35...)

It's not a mistake. Everyone is rounding, as they do in casual conversation, especially what the specific number is mostly irrelevant to the conversation. Picard knows when the last time he saw Beverly was, but no one is going to do the exact math in this type of conversation.

If Picard were trying to ascertain if he was the father or exactly when it was he fathered Jack, that would be different. But, previously Beverly told Picard exactly when she got pregnant.

That's a lot of rounding.

Well, the out of universe reason is that they could either hang a lantern on the fact that Speleers is too old or simply gloss over it.

While I don't see much difference between saying 22 and 23 or 24, I can see where they might think that it would be better to gloss over it and that 24 is more believable.

35 is the new 22.

And it’s actually 9.8 Forward but they round up, hence 10.

Too bad they didn't manage to kill Wesley off. Sorry kid, got a hotter brother to replace you.

Levar Burton aged into one hot daddy! Those ice blue eyes and silvery, close-cropped beard are a hot look for him.

Is Jeri Ryan ever less than awesome? I know lots of other actors picket with the writers. It's just that Ms. Ryan is never less than gracious to anyone or anything. And of course she is one of the best actors on any Star Trek. Love her.

That's the gayest looking I've ever seen Jeri Ryan look at R156. I know she's straight but she's so gorgeous in casual dyke chic!

Beverly Crusher would’ve been 55-56 when pregnant with Jack. Jean-Luc Picard would’ve been 74 or 75 at that time.

Meaning she was meant to be in her late seventies in this final season. Jean-Luc Picard is meant to be 96 years old in the final season.

Jack’s lucky he was born with only good looks, and not a host of birth defects from an ancient womb and even dustier sperm.

I believe that Todd Stashwick is either Polish or Danish. Though I'm not completely sure.

[quote]Beverly Crusher would’ve been 55-56 when pregnant with Jack. Jean-Luc Picard would’ve been 74 or 75 at that time.

I pointed this out here and elsewhere.

I was soundly lectured that women can have children that old and would definitely be able to do so in the year 2378.

^ Ok, good, that's settled then.

Who gives a shit about how old they were and whether his sperm would be dusty or her womb shriveled? Fans like this try to ruin Trek. Isn't there something else you can have your aspie fits over?

r155, Burton has brown eyes. The blue was for the show.

Jack doesn't know it, but it still has a Borg implant near his prostate - good times.

I mean, I've always loved Jeri, but her joining a Dungeons and Dragons campaign with Terry Matalas, Mica Burton, a few other Picard writers, and with Todd Stashwick as the Dungeon Master?

Awesome.

First, casual lesbian chic and now hot nerd?! She's trying to kill me.

I adore Jeri Ryan. This makes me love her even more!

It would have been better if the bad guys were from the temporal cold war storyline in Enterprise.

[quote]It would have been better if the bad guys were from the temporal cold war storyline in Enterprise.

No, it really woudn't.

As much as the Borg have been overused and gutted, a show about Picard always had to deal head on with the Borg.

The first season was about where Picard was now. He was a tired, broken man who had quit starfleet in a huff. It was about who he had become. Season 2 was about his past - what shaped him into the person he was. As bad as the season 2 was, it was necessary to see his past and his mother and father in order to setup Season 3 which focused on his legacy - what impact he had on people around him (the TNG crew) and nothing says legacy more than a child.

The elephant in the room for him is the Borg. He's never truly dealt with that. I have to admit, that it was a nice callback to First Contact when he could still "hear" the Borg even though the implants had all been removed.

Now, what was wholly unnecessary was the Changelings - those were always a DS9 villain. The problem was that Matalas had to work around the mess that was S1 and S2 without an opportunity to setup anything for S3. For me, that was the biggest flaw with an otherwise excellent season 3 - one I'm willing to overlook for the overall good season.

[quote]As much as the Borg have been overused and gutted, a show about Picard always had to deal head on with the Borg.

They wrapped it up nicely in season 2 of Picard…and there it could have happily stayed instead of resurrecting that tired cliche of a Star Trek bogeyman.

R170 There were no shortage of amazing villains from the TNG era - Moriarty, a rogue Cardassian, one of the Badmirals, a kooky alien like Nagilum or Q, etc.

The entire theme of Season Three was "Throwback City," so of course they had to recycle villains rather than just create a new one, but they could've gone deeper than yet another Borg storyline. Vadic and her flying monkeys were scary enough on their own, and they could've left the mysterious talking face a mystery. To have it all lead back to "Oh, it's another Borg Queen thing" was a bit of a letdown.

[quote] Vadic and her flying monkeys were scary enough on their own, and they could've left the mysterious talking face a mystery.

Leave the mystery for another Star Trek show? I find that a bit, I don't know, deceiving in the sense of demanding a viewer to keep watching other shows from the Star Trek franchises to get some answers.

R171, The entire third season was just sad…from having characters too old to have the children they did…to having characters acting in a way their characters never would…to being reminded that sometimes resurrecting a series when everyone is past their prime isn’t a good thing.

The first two seasons worked because Picard had a supporting cast that wasn’t the original and that allowed Picard to act his age. The third season just tried to resurrect a glory that was long gone.

R172 I didn't say "leave the mystery for another show." I meant they could leave it a mystery altogether, and NEVER say who that face was supposed to be.

Or they could've just stopped at "Rogue Changelings from the Gamma Quadrant, bent on restarting the Dominion War." That's a better setup than having to see that Queen with her microwaved-pizza skin and the nonsense "Fleet Formation Mode" being commandeered by "instantly assimilated" young officers. The story went utterly off the rails in those last two episodes.

Honorary DLer Sean at What Culture has a new video of 10 Storylines we'd like to see.

I'm not really interested in some of them, but am intrigued by some of them, like where did the Doomsday Machine come from.

It's cute when geeks argue

[quote] [R172] I didn't say "leave the mystery for another show." I meant they could leave it a mystery altogether, and NEVER say who that face was supposed to be.

That's insanely stupid. Viewers want answers to their mysteries. Leaving things unsolved is even worse than keep things vague in order to leave it to the viewer's interpretation. And let's be realistic, a franchise like Star Trek isn't exactly high art to pull that sort of thing off.

[quote]Honorary DLer Sean at What Culture has a new video of 10 Storylines we'd like to see.

If he wants, I'd be happy to initiate him so he could move from honorary DL to actual Dler.

Seán, call me!

R158 well that explains why Jack is 20 and looks 35

R177 Only ignorant, shit-fer-brains viewers need that kind of closure and certainty in their storytelling. The better parts of Star Trek are FULL of mysteries that are never fully explained.

Who sent the Whale Probe that nearly destroyed Earth's atmosphere just trying to talk to extinct whales?

What was the point/origin of "Far Beyond the Stars," where poor Benny Russell dreamed of a better future until his mind utterly snapped?

How did the USS Equinox have such a wildly different experience in the Delta Quadrant than Voyager, despite having almost identical circumstances and pathways home?

Who were the "Conspiracy" parasites, and why did they suddenly disappear without their planned invasion? And what happened to all the officers who were infested with the crab things?

What ever happened to the Borg resistance movement after their Unimatrix Zero was destroyed?

Science fiction is full of mysteries, unanswered questions, and scary open-ended storytelling.

[quote]How did the USS Equinox have such a wildly different experience in the Delta Quadrant than Voyager, despite having almost identical circumstances and pathways home?

Actually, that's not a mystery. The Equinox was a much smaller Nova class starship intended for short term planetary missions, not longer-term deep space missions. It did not have the facilities, capacity, or reserves that Voyager had. It was not suitable for combat missions and had significantly lower combat capabilities than the Intrepid class Voyager. Frankly, given it's limitations, it's amazing it lasted as long as it did. Had it encoutered half of what Voyager did, it would have been destroyed a lot earlier.

From the beginning their situation was a lot more desperate. Unfortunately, both captain and crew were willing to succumb to that desperation in order to survive and willing to do whatever it took.

The best season hands down and they better bring Shaw back in whatever next show they do with Seven! Love Jeri, Terry, and Todd's Instagram Dungeons and Dragons escapades lately, too.

R181 But I'm still hung up on the convenient writing that NO ONE encountered by either ship in five years said "Hey, you look familiar. I just met another ship like yours a few weeks ago!"

I realize space is massive, but did they really NEVER cross paths or meet the same species of aliens? How did that little ship survive the shit that nearly destroyed Voyager - the Nekrit Expanse, that radioactive monthlong nebula, the two years of star-less space, and hostile aliens like the Kazon, the Borg, the organ-harvesters, etc.?

My own head canon is that the Equinox was abducted first, and the Caretaker tried to send them back home, but since he was dying and weak, he only flung them partway home. So they ended up in the middle of the DQ instead of at the far reaches of it like Voyager. Then they spent five years puttering around a small area, before meeting Voyager's crew, who were by then halfway home.

The Equinox only had about 80 crew members, 39 of whom were lost in the first week of being in the Delta Quadrant after encountering the Krowtonan Guard. Apparently, this group claimed such a large area of space that unless Equinox violated their space to get back home, they wouldn't be able to get back in any reasonable amount of time. They were taking a completely different path than Voyager that eventually intersected with them.

If Equinox was taken first, it was only by a few months at most since both were taken in 2371. But, since they ended up in such different places, it's very likely the Caretaker didn't send them all the way back since Voyager started at the Caretaker's array.

It's all convenient writing, but not utterly ridiculous.

R184 And Voyager never once met that expansive and ill-tempered race of aliens. How odd.

Maybe they never met because for the first several months, the Equinox was headed not back to Earth but over to the Gamma Quadrant to find the wormhole. Maybe they changed their minds after weeks of heavy battle.

The writing wasn't as sloppy as "The Golden Girls," but it still had gaps. And Trekkies are notorious detail-hounds.

I just attributed it to space as vast.

The Equinox cut through that ill-tempered race's space. It's not that far of a stretch that Voyager was able to take a direct line that circumvented their space while the Equinox had to cut through their space and met Voyager on the other side.

Let's say the Caretaker's array was in Colorado and Voyage was trying to get back home to NY. They'd have a straight shot. If the Equinox somehow ended up starting in Monteray, Mexico, they'd either have the choice of backtracking around Texas and adding a bunch of time and distance or having to go through Texas. If both were flying roughly directly to NY, they'd meet somewhere in Arkansas or Kentucky, taking completely different routes. The Equinox would have to fly through redneck country while Voyager would have a much safer flight through Kansas and Missouri.

Seeing the Enterprise D again and then watching it get its due as a combat vessel will end up one of the highlights of my year in TV watching.

I was a Voyager fanboy back when the show was still fresh on the teevee. And the story of the Equinox felt like a much more organic and realistic portrayal of how it would actually be to be stranded on the other side of the galaxy in one small ship with no help and no hope.

Years later, having seen Battlestar Galactica and the look of "rugged sci-fi," I wish they would've tried to serialize Voyager. The ship saw severe damage in many episodes, but was miraculously cleaned up the following week. Main characters were never killed or scarred, and their seven-year trip was pretty damned harmless.

I read about how the writers wanted to make the "Year of Hell" storyline - where Voyager endures a year of brutal battles, destruction, and death - an entire season of gripping life-or-death drama. But that asshole Berman refused and said it would hurt the syndication package. Cable viewers won't watch a random episode of a show if they haven't seen the episodes leading up to it.

What if, after seven years, Voyager showed up at Earth in pieces, missing half its crew, with random repairs cobbled together and a captain missing her sanity and half her limbs? What if a few of the main characters died along the way? What if they never made it home in the finale, and instead just kept flying in that direction, a la Quantum Leap? It all would've been richer storytelling, but would've flunked the Berman Test.

Given the way stories are told today, I can imagine that Voyager would be more like Disco with at least season long story arc - granted the season would only be 10 episodes.

The number of torpedoes and shuttles that Voyager started with is a running joke in the fandom.

While I think it probably would have made for a better story not to have them make it back in the finale, I'm glad they did, as it gave a sense of closure. We'd still be waiting for them if they hadn't done it - even though the 21 years have now actually passed that they estimated it would have taken them.

R188 Yeah Equinox was really what Voyager should've been...a struggle to survive against insurmountable odds. Yes Berman was an issue, as were some of the other major players like Jeri Taylor and Brannon Braga, but Voyager also suffered from a significant amount of interference from both UPN and Paramount executives. They network and studio did not want serialized stories and were adamant that the writers should stick to the TNG-style of storytelling. I'm not a fan of Berman, but he did try to "rock the boat" particularly with the first season of Enterprise which was supposed to take place on Earth, but was constantly overruled by the studio. DS9 got away with a lot more, because Paramount's attention was on Voyager.

So the trailer for SNW is out. Am I the only one who is not the least bit excited for it. I honestly don't know if I'll tune in to the new season.

[quote] That's insanely stupid.

[quote] Only ignorant, shit-fer-brains viewers

[quote] But that asshole Berman

I am a huge fan of the entire franchise and have quite a few opinions about each show myself. But I could not get myself emotionally so invested in Star Trek that I would use this kind of language ... about TV shows.

I have to say that the soundtrack to season 3 was terrific. The composers (Steven Barton, Frederik Wiedmann) used elements from the films, shows and original compositions to create something unique and which effectively elevated the tension / sense of danger when required, and in scenes that packed a poignant, emotional response.

R190 I'm not that excited about Season 2 of SNW either. I want to see the Lower Decks crossover but that's it. It's not that I disliked the first season, but for me it's just too much a been there, done that. There's too much TOS nostalgia for me.

About SNW S2: I appreciate the optimism the show wants to convey, but imo they need to tone down Ortegas a bit. Her commenting on everything the captain says or does is quite on the limit in an organization that mimics the Navy. In the newest trailer she is portrayed as someone who is flying the Enterprise like it's a toy or a video game. That looks like a lot of fun. But it feels so off, too. I am seeing the pilot of a space ship like an airline pilot with a much more difficult vessel. She is flying a ship with hundreds of crew members who need to be carried from A to B safely. I have a hard time reconciling her with a true pilot. It's not a reflection on the actress. I think it's the writing that needs to be adjusted.

I'm slowly starting to dislike Pike.

He was so fantastic in Disco, but S1 SNW watered him down and this trailer makes him look more effete and weak.

On the brashness to cerebral scale with Kirk (Shatner's Kirk) on one end and Picard on the other, I picture Pike to be about halfway between with a slight lean toward Picard. But, I want to strength and bravado from Disco.

Anson Mount was sexy as hell in the first episode with long hair and unshaven. He really is a gorgeous man, so I guess I'll keep watching. Although his hair is getting taller and taller as each episode goes by.

R194, I agree totally with your assessment of Ortega! If they are going for a daring, overly confident personality, they completely failed; instead, she comes off as reckless, rude, and very juvenile.

Love to see Ortegas under Jellico's command.

Jellico: Lt. Ortega, fly us around that battle cruiser.

Ortegas: Ah, a little slip in, slip out undetected.

Jellico: Hey Lieutenant, why don't you just shut the fuck up and follow the orders that were just given to you.

r197, 😂😂😂👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[quote]I have to say that the soundtrack to season 3 was terrific. The composers (Steven Barton, Frederik Wiedmann) used elements from the films, shows and original compositions to create something unique and which effectively elevated the tension / sense of danger when required, and in scenes that packed a poignant, emotional response.

I tweeted at Terry Matalas that even if Paramount doesn't give them a big FYC campaign ahead of the Emmys, they should at least push the music for recognition.

In all honesty, I think S3 of Picard has turned me off to forthcoming seasons of SNW and Disco. While this final season of Picard was not perfect by any means, the 24th/25th century timeline of Trek is my home. It felt so good to be back there and I've never been super happy with both Disco's and SNW's prequel settings (yes I know Discovery moved ahead in time but didn't really improve the show's quality IMHO). Also, I know modern Trek has not been great at serialized storytelling, I think Picard S3 is probably the best serialized story of the current era of shows, but I do prefer it to the episodic format of SNW. I mean Anson Mount and Ethan Peck are wonderful to look at and probably the only reason I'll be tuning in LOL.

R192 I think Picard S3's soundtrack is the best Trek music since Goldsmith's TNG film scores.

[quote]How did the USS Equinox have such a wildly different experience in the Delta Quadrant than Voyager, despite having almost identical circumstances and pathways How did the USS Equinox have such a wildly different experience in the Delta Quadrant than Voyager, despite having almost identical circumstances and pathways home?

Voyager had Neelix who acted as guide.

R202 Don’t make me laugh. That hedgehog was the biggest grifter this side of Sarah Ferguson. He couldn’t guide them through shot, and only used them to pay his bar bills and hide him from space repo men.

Lousy cook, too.

Not to mention banging a 2 year old.

R204, you're gonna get us shut down. You know Muriel isn't a Trekkie and has no idea what an Ocampan is!

While I find Marina grating, and she is downright rude at times in this convention appearance, she talks about Picard season 3. So the official reason Troi doesn't have much to do in it is that Marina didn't really want to do the season as she had just left the US and was not keen on returning. So she agreed to appear if she only had to be in LA for six weeks (basically three episodes). She also preferred her scenes in season one Nepenthe to anything she was giving in season 3.

Good god, she's simply horrible in that clip. Is she a dry drunk?