Biden proposes rule for transgender student athletes that allows for some restrictions, opposes categorical bans

OP do you have children who are young enough to be in school?

[Quote] OP do you have children who are young enough to be in school?

As a matter of fact, yes. And if one turns out to be trans, I would like them to have the right to play sports just like every other kid.

No men in women's sports! Tranny or not. Stop the madness.

Liar. Your kids are in their 30s or you don't have any. If you were sincere you wouldn't be praising his plan since it leaves to door open to some bans.

R3, read Biden’s proposed rule.

He says that young kids in grade school should be able to compete because everyone at that age should be able to play sports.

As they get older, they should not be able to compete formally.

[Quote] Liar. Your kids are in their 30s or you don't have any. If you were sincere you wouldn't be praising his plan since it leaves to door open to some bans.

Huh? I think it makes sense until we know more about how trans athletes work. Outright bans at this point are premature and used as a wedge political issue.

You kids however should not be banned from sports.

^ young

Tackling the important issues of our time.

We KNOW "more about how trans athletes work." If the Ts are happy with this proposal, then it's detrimental to women.

The sensible approach is that no male should compete in any women's sport - they need to campaign instead to make male sports more inclusive of crossdressing males.

The same goes for women's toilets; changing rooms; prisons; rape crisis centres; hospital wards. It is not women's jobs to validate these males' identities.

^Forget it. We're (mostly) white males, so we take whatever we want whenever we want.

Biden sometimes has very outstanding original ideas, and he is usually fair and logical where he compromises. I've often thought there ought to be a middle path for young trans students participating in athletic programmes. Each sport is different, and should be handled separately; accordingly.

Perhaps allow the older trans students to still participate in some team sports, but make them ineligible to compete for scholarships. This is another fair-minded suggestion I've heard some progressives offer up as a compromise.

It must be said however that Biden's "common sense" seems to be seriously lacking where environmental issues are concerned: like the disaster in East Palestine Ohio, his support of the Willow Project, and his administration not being tough enough on PFAS/PFOS "Forever" chemicals in America's municipal water supply. The EPA CONTINUES to fail to properly lead. Sorry for my rant, and going off on a tangent here. I'm just tired of the lack of criticism for his administration from the left.

Different national sports associations have different rules. Most say if you started hormones before puberty, you can play as trans. With states banning hormone replacement in youth, this is in jeopardy

While I somewhat agree that this is a good compromise, all it's doing is affirming to a child that the world will accept them as the opposite gender...until they hit the age where women's/men's sports become competitive. At which point, the delusion will be broken and the kid will have to face the truth which is that no matter what they do, they will never be the opposite sex. I think this would be more harmful to the trans individual. To live as a child playing pretend to then be told, yeah, we aren't pretending anymore would be really damaging. But I don't think men should be playing women's sports at all.

[Quote] At which point, the delusion will be broken and the kid will have to face the truth which is that no matter what they do, they will never be the opposite sex. I think this would be more harmful to the trans individual

The vast majority of kids don’t go in to play competitive sports in high school. No kid should be denied playing on a kids sports team because they develop camaraderie and sportsmanship.

It is far more harmful to say a kid cannot play because of who they are.

[Quote] I think this would be more harmful to the trans individual.

Oh please. You trolls don’t give a shit about trans kids. In fact, not long ago, you were posting that you hope all trans kids commit suicide

[Quote] It must be said however that Biden's "common sense" seems to be seriously lacking where environmental issues are concerned: like the disaster in East Palestine Ohio, his support of the Willow Project, and his administration not being tough enough on PFAS/PFOS "Forever" chemicals in America's municipal water supply. The EPA CONTINUES to fail to properly lead.

That’s some serious whataboutism on a thread about trans kids

No Labels trolling

R15 is threatened by female bonding.

R17 Simply put, I wished to avoid any impression that I think Biden ALWAYS has good sense, or the right ideas. I made my apology, and that should've been enough to prevent a derailment of the thread.

The problem is we don’t know enough about trans in sport to make dramatic decisions. It’s absolutely idiotic and mean to not allow trans to be on sports teams at this point.

Biden’s compromise is a good one. It’s fine when they are young. When they are older, we have to tread cautiously. That said, this is a minute number of kids. Making laws against them smacks of stigmatizing

[quote]The problem is we don’t know enough about trans in sport to make dramatic decisions.

What more do we need to learn?

The Ts are flipping their binders and their packers over this milquetoast, common-sense rule.

"Joe Biden slammed over ‘troubling’ proposal allowing schools to ban some trans kids from sport"

[quote]Perhaps allow the older trans students to still participate in some team sports, but make them ineligible to compete for scholarships. This is another fair-minded suggestion I've heard some progressives offer up as a compromise.

And the girls who get injured by a male player? The girls who have to deal with a teenaged boy in their locker room?

[quote]The problem is we don’t know enough about trans in sport to make dramatic decisions.

Yes we do. Studies from the Karolinska Institute. Testimony from experts at the IOC. Not to mention millions of years of human evolution and thousands of years of medical science.

[Quote] What more do we need to learn?

We need to learn if trans truly have an advantage and a what point.

If trans women were always better, they’d be at the top of all women’s sports—but they’re not. In fact, there are very few who are anywhere near the top.

Do trans women who trans before puberty more equal in strength than those who trans afterwards? What level of estrogen do they need to be considered equal? Do we know for sure that women are inferior to men in every sport?

None of that is clear at this moment

[Quote] Yes we do. Studies from the Karolinska Institute. Testimony from experts at the IOC. Not to mention millions of years of human evolution and thousands of years of medical science.

We need more thorough study than studies from one institute. “Millions of years of human evolution and thousands of years of medical science” doesn’t really mean much in this question.

Trans athletes is a new phenomenon.

It’s BS that the first instinct the right has is to ban them altogether

[quote]Do we know for sure that women are inferior to men in every sport?

Please name a sport where a woman holds a record above that of a man.

And before you say it, dressage doesn’t count.

Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre told a Newsmax reporter to "go dilate" in the press conference.

[quote]We need more thorough study than studies from one institute. “Millions of years of human evolution and thousands of years of medical science” doesn’t really mean much in this question.

You know what also doesn't really mean much? "We need more thorough study than studies from one institute."

[Quote] Please name a sport where a woman holds a record above that of a man. And before you say it, dressage doesn’t count.

Dressage.

[Quote] You know what also doesn't really mean much? "We need more thorough study than studies from one institute."

When in your life do you do anything major—like healthcare, education, work habits, sports—based on study from one single institute? Why would you start now?

Sports like golf, horseback riding, tennis—may not matter if a man or a woman is playing when at the high school level.

[Quote] Please name a sport where a woman holds a record above that of a man.

So now we need to know how a woman does vers a trans woman with a certain estrogen level. How about a trans woman who transitioned pre puberty? Post puberty?

All these things need to seen and studied before sweeping bans are made.

[Quote] Simply put, I wished to avoid any impression that I think Biden ALWAYS has good sense, or the right ideas.

Like every President, Biden lives and works within the political system he was handed. He has to make political decisions—some seem like good sense and other don’t, depending upon what the opposing party is demanding.

R25 Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. Do you understand why the determiner word [italic] some [/italic] was used? Did you miss the parts of my post where I said each sport is different?

Answer: Because not all sport is equally injurious, or dangerous. Do you ACTUALLY believe tennis, archery, swimming, softball, volleyball, baseball, track, should ban all the trans students? You love repeating this stuff about when the "men" injure the women... You lack critical thinking, whilst other posters are sincerely positing ideas, and valid compromises.

Young women who play a more risky or combative-type sport already agree to the many physical risks involved, where soccer and rugby are concerned.

Perhaps on the locker room issue, there can be a vote as to whether or not the trans players are welcome? If they're not welcome, other changing rooms are probably available, and this issue alone should not preclude trans students participating in sport. Work-arounds can, and should be found to accommodate these players.

You're really working overtime here as a keyboard warrior: cherry-picking, wrongfully partially paraphrasing others' posts, and you're incessantly leaning heavily on partial quotes; taking things out of context to make your points.

You're also keen on combining different posters' quotes, giving some false perception, and creating your own twisted little fake dialogue here. I find all of this to be rather intellectually dishonest of you.

No one is banned from playing a sport appropriate to their biological sex category or competing in the open unisex category.

You seem very upset by this discussion r12.

OP- In your photo Biden looks like he's a had a TON of work done on his face.

You wanna be trans, be trans but you should be prepared to give up competing in female categories if you’re male. It really is that simple. Which is more important, living your truth or winning sport competitions? If it’s the latter you’re not transing for the right reason. Life isn’t always fair and this is one area where a trans person SHOULD have to compromise.

The amount of time and resources devoted to trans is amazing.

That's because he cares about women, R4. It took a long time for women to get any sort of fairness in sports. That would be blown if men or trans women were able to compete in women's sports. Schools that care about their female students can make sure their sports aren't ruined. I would not be surprised if Jill Biden advise him on this, being an educator herself.

R41 It’s almost like there's a lot of money in it!

This is a good move.

And I am one who actually does have high-school age children.

But my kids are not in sports. I am not a sporty person at all. I am the one who comes on here and says women cannot compete with men because we're physically weaker. And that girls' sports are boring and dumb. But if we're going to have womens' sports, they should be for women.

Sports where men and women can compete equally: horseback riding, race car driving, poker.

I’m all for trans rights—but complete bullshit that mtf get to play in female sports. You don’t hear anyone harping about ftm playing in male sports and for good reason. Bi-fucking-ology. Anika Sorenson, the best female golfer of all time, played in a male golf tournament and got trounced. Venus Williams wouldn’t stand a chance against Pete Sampras for the same reason. Billie Jean king only beat Bobby Riggs because he gave her the double’s court boundary

It’s just misogyny but wrapped in liberal bullshit. And it’s hurting girls. We’re just feeding the GOP a platform to take over.

It’s too early to tell how this will play out in the courts, so both sides look foolish in trying to either declare it a victory or a defeat.

R36 You forget where Biden said he could work with Republicans to enact change.

Nobody even wants to look at you or touch you R10 - let alone rape you...

I do not believe this is as big of an issue as politicians or the media want us to believe it is.

Why? Because it isn’t.

Like all “fads”, this too, shall pass.

Being trans is VERY real for those who experience it, & equally VERY rare.

It’s a shame that authentic trans kids/adults, are being targeted & exploited, politically.

Also from R45:

"I'm all for gays rights - as long as they stay in the closet and don't rub it all in our faces. And obviously homosexuals mustn't be allowed to be around our children because they are well-known for grooming young children being that they are all paedophiles. Homosexuals could possibly be around children if they are heavily supervised and watched at all times. But never alone. And of course they shouldn't be allowed to marry - it's unnatural and ridiculous to even suggest - just think of the filthy diseases they all carry and spread around deliberately. Disgusting. But yes - I am totally in support of gay rights!"...

[quote] I would like them to have the right to play sports just like every other kid.

It's not about the right to play sports. Nobody's saying trans people can't play sports. It's the persons born male competing against the persons born female that's fucked.

Biological males should never compete in women's sports and vice versa. Since transitioning to another sex still means the person is biologically their original sex, I don't understand the insistence on pretending otherwise. What's wrong with being "other" when that is, indeed, the case? Wear that with as much pride as you want to, but don't expect everyone else to go along with the pretence as if you were born otherwise. That's your thing, and no one else's. Biology matters, especially in sports.

Oh fuck off r50. R45 made a good point and instead of responding, you typed that nonsense. Your side never have any good arguments, just name calling and accusations of being right wing. ::bronx cheer::

He's rught though. We should wait patiently until many many scientific studies are done to determine if men are more dominant over women in sports competition.

Trans people constantly shriek that they just want to be themselves.

Go right ahead.

But no-one is buying the snake-oil that says Brucelyn Jenner is a woman.

For the person claiming tennis would be ok for transwomen to compete against teen girls in high school - well, no it wouldn’t.

In the 90s the Williams sisters did a publicity stunt where they played an exhibition matches against a 300-something seed wildcard at one of the the grand slams. You know, those same Williams sisters with the broad shoulders and big muscles who are frequently mocked as being manly.

They were absolutely slaughtered.

R38 I'm not at all upset about the topic, or this discussion. As a former athletic coach, I see the value and benefit of sport being open to everyone, especially the younger students. I think outright bans of any kind seem illogical for lower grades. I think the stigma of forcing a younger child living as the opposite sex to compete on the team that doesn't match his or her identity is very damaging. I don't see that working out well for anyone involved.

I suspect many of them would probably prefer to fly under the radar, so to speak. Most probably wouldn't feel comfortable in changing rooms either way. I would go out of my way to accommodate trans youth if I were to find myself in this situation.

What honestly upsets me more, as evidenced by my tangent, is what is being allowed to be done to the earth. I had expected much more from this administration. I also have some friends who happen to live in the area of the East Palestine disaster.

It does upset me that this country is bought and paid for by corporatists, regardless of party. That reality is made manifest by what is allowed to happen here, as regards food supply, personal hygiene products, water supply, pollution, and the proliferation of these hormone confusing chemicals. I cannot be so certain such chemicals are not involved in making some of us trans.

Then why are TRAs complaining about this, OP?

Yet another indication - if one were needed - that the Dems have lost their direction and their minds.

Sport is open to everyone. However, validating males who think they are females should not come at the expense of women's sports.

The sports issue reveals the fakeness of the trans movement. I never hear of any plans to make men's sports accessible to women who think they are men.

R60 You really cannot accommodate trans children? Up to grade 8, you really see so much difference between the sexes? Many have not finished their puberty by such age. I think the differences are more trivial at these stages of development myself.

I see them ALL as children first, then boys and girls. I definitely do not see any of them as women at these ages.

I'm not an American by birth, and I think the level of outrage here is misplaced or misdirected towards these young students. Life can be hard enough on them without you Americans blowing this out of proportion in relation to how tiny this minority population is. A small fraction of this tiny group will wish to participate in sport. No one should take this away from them.

If they decide to stick with it, then perhaps it is fair for them to decide in secondary school if it is worth it to them, and to risk playing on the teams of their birth sex, despite those challenges. I'm trying to be extraordinarily fair here. Please respect that.

That recent Quantum Leap episode sorted this issue forever. All it takes is for the boy on the girls’ team to score the winning point and everyone will love boys playing in girls’ teams forever! It’s so easy.

R62 why are the vast majority of children being accommodated boys?

R62 the only thing the sports issue has done is highlighted the dismissive attitude towards females playing sports. I guess a girl is never too young to learn that whatever a boy wants he should get.

[quote] Life can be hard enough on them without you Americans blowing this out of proportion in relation to how tiny this minority population is. A small fraction of this tiny group will wish to participate in sport. No one should take this away from them.

Terms like "small fraction" and "tiny group" are disingenuous. Not when society as a whole, especially women, is being penalized financially/socially for not pandering to the delusions of that "small fraction" and "tiny group".

R64 I'm not aware of that being the case. The last exposé I watched on the subject actually featured a young trans man, (born female) who liked football and baseball. They were a Mormon family featured on FOX of all outlets. I came to watch the spot via a secondary source on YouTube.

R66 Then you're admitting in a roundabout way that you feel it is fair to penalise lower grades in the US, i.e. Primary school, and Junior High to bear the brunt of your culture war?

Male sports are sacred. Most schools aren't going to mess with that to accommodate girls who think they are boys.

R62 it's actually fine because it continues to turn more people against the trans movement and that's a good thing.

I still stand by my initial assertion that I find Biden's compromise to be original, and equitable.

[quote] Then you're admitting in a roundabout way that you feel it is fair to penalise lower grades in the US, i.e. Primary school, and Junior High to bear the brunt of your culture war?

R68 Such hyperbole to agenda! What is indeed "fair" is to cease and desist lying that humans can "transform" or "transition" into something else. That putting on a dress or having "feelings" that you are a woman does not change the reality that you are a man. And that women should not be penalized by this nonsensical belief.

R65 Sorry, I disagree with your faulty premise. I don't find Biden's compromise to have anything to fo with that issue. I don't think Biden has a dismissive attitude whatsoever toward "females playing sport" I don't either, as a former coach for girls' and young women's' rugby back in my younger years.

You're simply piling on here, and creating unnecessary division between males and females by stoking this fire of yours. It would also appear you have no qualms about sacrificing young trans students as kindling either for your fire.

Sports is being used to normalize the concept of "trans" children. That's why boys shouldn't be allowed on girls teams.

R73, the only ones who are sacrificing "trans" children are parents, doctors, pharmaceutical companies and TRAs like yourself.

[quote] It would also appear you have no qualms about sacrificing young trans students as kindling either for your fire.

R73 Sacrificing to/for what? Reality? Common sense? That you're a boy and belong in sports for boys? That sacrifice?

R72 Why must you persist in responding to me with language directed at me, with you, etc, as if I'm trans? Can't you keep on topic, and keep your language specific to the lower grade students, the children Biden is referring to SPECIFICALLY in this proposed compromise? THAT is what the thread is about after all.

R77 Go back again and read R72 S L O W L Y. You're assertion is erroneous deflection, as nowhere is the language "directed at you". No surprise.

R75 I'm just a former coach, so I think I can opine on this topic without being called a TRA, or being told I cannot be a woman, even though I wear a skirt or a dress. This thread isn't about me, or any of that... it was about a compromise, as to younger students...

There is no compromise to be had with any of you, as you only see this world as black and white, and you enjoy your authoritarian absolutes, and your biological imperatives. Is it religious based for most of you?

Real life is actually much more complicated, and messy often times. That's why thinking people create work-arounds, and compromise, like Biden.

Very simple solution for trans athletes - have a M category for males, an F categories for females and a Q category for gender nonconforming athletes to battle it out amongst themselves.

Same goes for acting and music awards.

Simples.

R79, just because you're a woman doesn't mean you're not a misogynist on this topic.

Also, abuse is abuse. There is no "compromise".

[quote] Real life is actually much more complicated, and messy often times. That's why thinking people create work-arounds, and compromise, like Biden.

R79 "Real life" dictates that a human with XY chromosomes is a male. Neither Biden nor the translunatics and their supporters are addressing "real life" nor are they "thinking people".

Another solution. Two categories. One for females. One for everyone. Apply this to everything including sports, bathrooms, etc.

Alternative solution: Drop the T!!

R78 As R72 chose to reply: putting on a dress or having "feelings" that you are a woman does not change the reality that you are a man" You need to improve your writing skills if you find this appropriate here.

The proper way to make such an objection, as related to the subject matter here (young students) would go as follows: Despite some of these young children feeling they are the opposite sex, and enjoy wearing different clothes does not make them the opposite sex.

I'm not the subject of the compromise, as an old non-trans bloke... and this compromise was not limited to those students born male, who may (or may not) enjoy wearing dresses. The policy suggestion was applicable to ALL trans students, before reaching Secondary, or High School.

This choice of language is intentionally hostile, condescending, not relevant, and I read enough similar screed to recognise the wilful intent to insult and emasculate any male who advocates for any trans folk.

It's what you collectively do. It's incendiary, where it need not be. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Let's try to be more precise with our language here, despite it being a particular pitfall for you anti-trans activists.

R81 STOP! I've said I'm a bloke REPEATEDLY. Do you wish to inspect my genitalia?

R85 You've spent an inordinate amount of time and wear/tear on your fingers in yet more deflection from the assertions in R72 in that shoot the messenger kinda way. What you did NOT do is respond to the assertions. No surprise.

Oh, and discussion, debate, dissent, questions, and criticism are not "anti-" anything. It's what adults do on an adult discussion forum.

R82 That again is your perceived biological imperative. Notwithstanding, it doesn't solve the issue of these students here in question, now does it?

What do you propose to do with these young children? Do you honestly believe mocking them, and alienating them as young children is going to magically make them feel at home in their bodies? Will it make them go away?

Vanish somehow into the ether? You don't have any solutions for them at all, yet you belittle those who try to deal with them with a little compassion, and inclusion? I certainly hope NONE of you are parents, teachers, counsellors, or coaches IRL.

R87 Stick to the topic of the article, as featured in the thread.

[quote]If trans women were always better, they’d be at the top of all women’s sports—but they’re not. In fact, there are very few who are anywhere near the top.

That's only because it's sixth tier or lower male athletes who kept losing against other males who are transing themselves so they can finally win something by beating women. If any of the higher level males transitioned, they slaughter every single female athlete every single time. William Thomas was the highest rated male athlete to pretend he's a woman and he had to pull back in his races to not lap the fucking field and it was fucking obvious.

[quote] hat again is your perceived biological imperative. Notwithstanding, it doesn't solve the issue of these students here in question, now does it?

R88 But it does solve the "issue". It is the perfect "solution". Cease and desist lying to children and the issue ceases and desists. For you, for me and for those "students". As me aul mum used to say "Dicks in the gents, twats in the ladies".

There is nothing "perceived" about biology. Except to those who want to pretend otherwise.

R87 They're children. That's who the article, and Biden's proposed compromise pertains to... not some bigoted assertion about me wearing a frock, so no, I don't have to respond to those bigoted hypothetical assertions, you arseclown!

R89 More deflection. And you STILL haven't responded to the assertions in R72. No surprise.

Children shouldn't be encouraged to think they are the opposite sex. It leads to sterilizing hormones and surgeries to remove their genitals. That is why Biden is wrong about allowing boys to play on the girls team.

Parents don't want their children to be used to normalize the abuse of a fellow child who is being told they can magically change into the opposite sex.

R91 You're a simpleton. You can't bloody read an article, and stay on topic either, can you? It isn't my place, or yours frankly, to disagree with a child's doctor, or psychiatrist, or parents if they agree the child is trans. It isn't up to any of us.

That's the point where this imperative of yours kicks into overdrive. You think if you blather on repeating it, it somehow solves their problem. It's almost sad you believe you have these powers to make things like this disappear. Fors this also solve the problems of the intersex child, or those with similar problems? Grow up.

[quote] I don't have to respond to those bigoted hypothetical assertions, you arseclown!

R92 Of course you don't. Especially when your only "response" is childish rant.

R97 There's nothing to respond to, as I don't wear dresses. Not trans.

Children in elementary school usually all play together anyway. Around about 4th grade, girls actually start getting taller, stronger, and more coordinated than the boys. Then, around 6-7th grade, the testosterone kicks in and the boys shoot past the girls in all those areas and just keep going until even the weakest one can beat the average girl in anything physical.

It is very, very simple biology and the absolutely disingenous obfuscating of that very, very simple biology and the fact that liberals and the Democratic party are going along with it to the detriment of women is laughable and disgusting at the same time.

R22 has zero respect for women. Men do not belong on women's sports teams, or in women's spaces. Period.

[quote] if they agree the child is trans. It isn't up to any of us.

R96 If "they agree", then they should be prosecuted for abuse and malpractice. Imagine telling a child who depends on them for "adult" guidance that humans can magically "transform" into something else.

[quote] Fors this also solve the problems of the intersex child, or those with similar problems?

4 to 5 people in 100,000 suffer from Kleinfelter's. But this isn't about them. This is about pandering to delusions. And you and I both know it.

R2, your "trans" child can play sports as part of his/her physical category, i.e. biological boy or biological girl.

What is a "trans child" anyway? Are you seriously suggesting that some children are born in the wrong body? What a disgusting thing to tell a child, that he/she was born wrong.

Biden is a God damned idiot when it comes to this.

R99 Do all the Democrats support Biden's compromise? I don't think that's the case at all. Most Americans I know who are Democrats do not support trans folk at all. I've heard no praise whatsoever for this compromise.

Two of my closest friends are teachers, one working at a public HS, the other at a Montessori school. Their beliefs mirror Republicans on the issue.

R98 It's not that there is "nothing to respond to", it's siimply that you don't have a response. See eight of your deflective, vituperative and, at times ridiculous ("not trans" Huh???) posts for evidence.

R101 Don't resort to that weakest of the weak, yet popular internet closure "you and I both know it" Obviously if I believed as you do; I wouldn't waste my time here debating the issue.

R106 Notice that you focus on those assertions that you believe provide you reasons NOT to respond except with more vituperative deflection??

R105 I speak several languages, in addition to being a British native English-speaking person here, and I haven't a clue as to what you're on about. Sorry.

[quote] Biden is a God damned idiot when it comes to this.

R103 And not only this.

R101 This isn't about any of that... you wish to argue trans people are not real, or shouldn't be allowed to be believed... or something to that end. this is about youth playing sport on the team they identify as...

R104, that's why I said "Democratic party" which is why I don't undertand it. The majority of ALL people know this trans crap is bullshit when it comes to pretending men are women but the Democratic party as a political organization is going all in on it. I think 90% of them are doing it because they are stupid straight people who think they are supporting gay rights by supporting this insanity.

If only we'd very definitively dropped the T years ago, maybe they wouldn't have been sucked in like they have but I guarantee that the Democratic platform for 2024 is going to include trans rights, front and center. They might as well just give the finger to women, their most loyal voting base. Just dumb but no longer surprising in the woke-infested upper echelons of what used to be the party of reality and science.

[quote] I speak several languages, in addition to being a British native English-speaking

R108 And the language of deflection/non-response.

"do not support trans folk at all" - Again with the bullshit twisting and distortion, r104. Most people everywhere feel great sympathy for people with gender dysphoria. I strongly believe they should be able to access the best therapy in order to get to the root of the emotional problems that are causing their dysphoria. Most people also believe that people who identify as trans should have the same legal rights as everyone else, and in fact they do actually have exactly the same rights as everyone else.

What we don't believe - and should not be forced to believe - is that trans-identified people are really the opposite sex. A transwoman is not a woman, a transman is not a man. It's particularly sick when it comes to children and adults try to impose these extremist adult notions of "gender identity" based on crude 1950s gender stereotypes onto "hender nonconforming" children. This is especially harmful for kids who would otherwise have grown up gay. Of course there is little support for this measure (which is not a "compromise") because it is damaging to children and is riddled with the ridiculous trans ideology.

As for sports, the male and female categories have nothing to do with "gender identity", which isn't even real, but were established on the basis of biological sex.

[quote] This isn't about any of that... you wish to argue trans people are not real, or shouldn't be allowed to be believed.this is about youth playing sport on the team they identify as...

R110 But that's EXACTLY what it is about. Youth being led to believe that they are something that they most certainly are not. By their parents and medical professionals who should know better and involving the education system in their delusion. The "solution" is to stop the attempt to "normalize" delusion at the source, so that the education system can get back to the business of educating.

R111 What is to be done with these children then, in your estimation? I'm generally curious. My initial inclination is that some mY grow out of it, yet others shall remain feeling trans. Do we as adults simply tell them it is all in their heads, and hope for the best, despite the medical community telling us that they have the best outcome when accepted as the gender they identify with?

I'm not talking surgeries or hormones... just allowing them to be as they are as children... allowing them to dress and identify as the opposite sex here for the sake of the age range contained in the article. Should the schools, the government, and the coaches simply say the medical community is wrong, and we know better?

R110, sports is not organised on the basis of "identity" but on the basis of biological sex.

It's also bullshit to say kids have a "gender identity". It's an extremist concept invented by adults, which is being imposed on vulnerable children and causing them lifelong harm.

R115, how about leaving these kids alone? No hormones. No surgeries. Explain to these kids that a boy loving pink or ballet doesn't mean he's a girl. It means he's a boy who likes pink and ballet.

R112 I already told you quite plainly that I don't have such feelings, nor do I wear dresses, so I cannot speak to having those feelings. What more do you wish me to say?

[quote] Should the schools, the government, and the coaches simply say the medical community is wrong, and we know better?

R115 Absolutely! And then take a Year 9 biology book, sit down with the child (and his woefully stupid parents) and explain basics of biology. That while he may wish to present as a girl, he remains a boy. And boys do sports with other boys because that's how society defines fairness.

Let the kid watch the whole "I Am Jazz" series and see that after all the hormones and surgeries Jazz still isn't a girl.

R117 I said leave them be as they are...sans hormones or surgeries, yet do we allow them to dress as the opposite sex, and do we say no you cannot join girls' teams? What then when psychiatrists, or therapists say otherwise? Do we not take them for any evaluation then? Ignore it?

R121, girls shouldn't be used to treat a boy's mental health problems so no to boys joining the girls team.

Yes, r115, they should be left alone to grow up. If they have feelings of dysphoria as adults then they can deal with the through therapy (it will probably take years of therapy for them to shake off the notion imposed on them as a child by adults that they were born in the wrong body). If they still feel dysphoric, then they can have drugs and surgery to change their outer appearance, but this does not mean in any way that they have become the opposite sex.

There is absolutely NO "medical community" belief in "trans" children. It's an extremist, fringe concept that has gripped certain niche areas of the psychiatrict and medical profession in North America and the rest, who realise its bullshit, are too frightened to speak out. Take a look outside of the US and Canada and you'll find that the few countries that did adopt some of these ideas about "trans kids" (although never to the extent of North America) are abandoning the sick "gender-affirming" model.

It's bad for the mental health of girls to see a boy prioritized on what is supposed to be their team.

R118 You've completed deflected from the original assertions at R72. Which has nothing to do with "feelings" or "dresses" or "speaking about them". It has to do with what information children are provided by people in authority. Their parents and medical professionals, for example. And you keep right on dancing around and around and around ignoring them. No surprise.

R125 No, that wasn't asked of me. I've asked about those things here, more recently.

R125 Earlier I'd been trying to keep to a more narrow topic, the suggested compromise, about inclusion of these young students, not the overall theory or political debate about trans adults, women, and the like. To accommodate them, as CHILDREN is a slightly different issue to my sensibilities, as I'm naturally very accepting.

You can't see that, however. Sometimes with children, the more one pushes back on something, the more determined a child can become. That's basic child psych 101. I think one can leave out the rest of it, as a wait and see approach, or even to humour them possibly, if you don't believe anyone should ever live as a transperson.

Don't we ordinarily deal with children differently in other regards? Aren't we being told by experts to indulge them a little here? I suppose I'm inclined to accept them, indulge them a bit, and see what happens. I generally agree with the Psychological professionals, and doctors. I feel my inclinations are in keeping with what is considered best practise here. I'm not simply in agreement because I defer to the experts, but also because I feel the oath of least resistance is what is best at this age.

*path, not oath

There is zero compromise needed. Women and girls are allowed to play sports with their own sex and should not EVER be forced to have to play with a man. Why on earth do the right of these mental cases trump girls and women??

R129 Now it's interesting you call these children mental cases who wish to play a sport with their friends, the gender they associate with, and are socialised as, yet we're meant to keep them away from the medical and psychological community...that makes zero sense.

It seems like a perfect recipe to create another mass-shooter like the one in Tennessee. That's the conundrum here.

R130, TRAs don't care about girls who think they are boys. If they did, they would push for a change in male sports rules so that women could join their teams at higher levels and have their male identify validated.

R131 I've been called the TRA here in this thread, and I genuinely care about all of them. I think the young girls should he encouraged to play whatever sport they are interested in. I've been championing young women to do as they please my entire life.

Whether they're lesbians, straight tomboys, outliers, or transman, I want all girls and women to feel validated as well. It isn't one-sided for me. I admire strong and masculine women; I always have. I've encouraged them to stick with rugby, and taught a few of them how to ride motorbikes.

R132, yet, you don't think girls should be able to have their own sports teams which their grandmothers fought for them to have.

R131 This is the story of the transman or transboy I referenced earlier. I want the best for Rylan!

R133 Maybe the team could take a vote on whether the player in question would be welcomed?

You think such a vote would be free and open, r135, especially when framed as "welcoming" or "excluding"? What about when other girls' teams have to play this team with boys on it? How about trans just go and form their own teams, if they don't want to play with their own physical category.

Also, r135, fuck you for trying to pretend their are no differences between males and females.

I think we should change all boys sports to accomodate girls who think they are boys. So, from now on, boys can no longer run as fast as they can in track or basketball, hit as hard as they can in baseball or football or tennis, etc. because it creates an unfair playing field for the girls who think they are boys. I mean, if the girls have to change their teams to accomodate boys that think they are girls. then it's only fair that the opposite be done as well, right?

And, to make it a true equivalent, especially when it comes to the physical danger of having males play with girls or women, all the females that want to play as boys and men get to play with a weapon to hobble the boys they are playing with and against. Fair is fair.

R138 Did you watch the video about Ryland? I think he could hold his own on any boys' team, if he wants to. I could imagine as younger people are more accepting, that a boys' team would welcome him.

I would say it's a difficult situation, that's why a compromise may be a good idea for younger students.

R131. DLers are always saying that men's sports are really Open fields. So if transmen want to join they're able to.

Have I been lied to?

R139, Ryland is a 14-year-old girl who is most probably having her ability to bear children destroyed right now because some idiot adults are telling her that there's something wrong with her and that her perfectly health body needs to be drugged and operated on to turn it into a Franenstein body.

She still won't be able to compete against the boys, though, and she will never have a male body.

Also, fuck Fox News and everyone else who pushes trans stories for Gay Pride. Especially as transing kids = gay conversion therapy.

[quote]It's also bullshit to say kids have a "gender identity". It's an extremist concept invented by adults.

And many of them can be traced back to the pharmaceutical companies.

R140, no, you weren't lied to because DLers were specifically talking about men who think they are women. DLers were saying such men should join the men's team.

R144. So are women who identify as men allowed to join men's teams or not?

R145, women don't even have to identify as men to join male sports teams. The only thing that matters is their ability to pass the tryouts. This is the only reason why women don't end up playing on male teams.

I think it's more complicated than that, r143. Puberty blockers are used off-label anyway, so they're hardly generating great profits for pharma companies.

A lot of the promotion of the trans bullshit is because it's been tied to the LGB, with the enthusiastic assistance of many idiotic lesbians and gay men, because supporting the trans lunacy is what now gives us social capital. Although, truth be told, many lesbians and gay men think it's bullshit but they're too scared to say so within their friend groups, workplace or school because they fear being ostracised or fired. Just look at how Muriel deletes trans threads. No debate allowed, even though the trans shit is being promoted in our name as the "LGBTQIAXYZ++ community".

R147. God, another "silent majority" nutcase who thinks people are just "too scared" to express how they really feel.

When will people learn that the "silent majority" doesn't really exist? In this age of social media, you pretty much know exactly who people are and what they feel about any issue.

Nobody's scared, you're just in the minority.

Actually, no, r148, I'm not in the minority and I wasn't talking about the so-called "silent majority". The majority rightly believes that humans cannot change sex and expresses this openly when they can. Only a minority believes that a man is a woman simply because he says so. But for a long time lynch mobs were sent out to metaphorically assassinate anyone who pointed out the true fact that transwomen are not women, they're men. See what happened to JK Rowling when she pointed out that the people who have periods are called women.

As for debate being suppressed, on this very forum Muriel actively deletes threads that don't adhere to the trans ideology line. And when the president of the United States says its sinful not to mutilate and sterilise children who don't conform to 1950s gender stereotypes, invites biological men to the White House for Lesbian (In)Visibility Day, and has a sit-down with an obviously mentally disturbed man who thinks he underwent a girlhood on TikTok, it's apparent that honest public debate on this issue is difficult.

R149. Yes, you're clearly being censored. It's not like we don't see trans posts twice a day (if not more).

You're ridiculous. Nobody is stifling debate here you just don't like where the debate is going.

The majority isn't scared, the majority is just kinda busy with their lives and expecting for common sense to prevail on its own. I happen to fall into that category as well. I'm just ignoring the whole issue because I know the pendulum will swing back and correct the current excesses in the end.

Some of that seems to already be happening, judging by Biden's proposal. When he came into office, every T-related question was deflected with "trans rights are human rights" by Psaki. Two years later, he's dropped those empty platitudes and is coming up with diplomatic proposals that try and take both sides into account. Very likely because the international sporting community isn't buying what the Americans are selling. So it's either this or letting American sports suffer.

R150, the majority is no longer scared, but there was much fear a few years ago. DL is anonymous, by the way, which is why people feel free to express themselves.

Actually, I do like where the debate is going, when debate is allowed. The debate is quite clearly going in the direction of acknowledging that sex is a biological category, that transwomen are not biologically women and that therefore a distinction needs to be made in areas such as sport, to protect women's sports. Even Biden's pathetic attempt to "compromise" is an acknowledgement that transwomen are not women. Of course, he gets caught up in the evil, bullshit notion that some perfectly healthy kids are born in the wrong body and must be taught that they are a mistake and need to be put on a path towards the mutilation of their bodies and filling their minds with bullshit, always reinforced with the scary notion that they are likely to commit suicide if they don't reject their bodies, but that lie is also on its way out.

R152. I agree with you about the biology part. That is an unfortunate fact of life until medical science advances far enough.

Te second part about gender-affirming care is something we're just going to have to agree to disagree on.

[quote] Muriel actively deletes threads that don't adhere to the trans ideology line.

R149 Six, seven years ago I would have agreed with you that "negative" "trans" threads were being actively deleted, due to conflict of interest. Today, it's tough to know which are FF'ed out of existence and which are nuked into the ethers by the sys admin.

There was a thread "Trans activists assaulted a woman who lost to a trans athlete and wanted to speak on the issue" originally posted 45 hours ago. One poster expressed amazement that the thread was still alive after 13 hours. The thread actually survived 25 hours before disappearing.

Given that this thread is a "positive" thread both about Biden/"trans", perhaps it'll survive.

R9 is correct.

It’s a good idea not to put the word “Trans” in the title and body of OP

R152, Biden's mind will change on child surgeries and procedures when the first of the lawsuits are won by those who were victimized as minors.

But that's what is frustrating about Biden. He doesn't do the right thing until his hand is forced.

Link below.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

And how does Biden respond to this situation? Does he just ignore it? I guess so.

Riley Gaines rejects SFSU's statement suggesting students protested 'peacefully': 'I was assaulted'.

There's actual video of the attack - there is no argument this was peaceful protest.

She needs to sue the school and have the individual attackers arrested. It's the only way to turn the tide on this bullshit before the crazy troons kill someone...well, someone else at this point. The number of people murdered by the trans is growing.

Trans = mentally ill.

Trans = mentally ill.

It's so cute how many men suddenly care about women's sports.

Women's sports (in schools) have only been around since 1972 when title IX passed. We had a good run for 51 years but we knew eventually the men would ruin it.

14 Trans Lawmakers Come Out Against Biden’s Proposed Title IX Changes

R164 You're "cute". Before you proclaim "suddenly" so confidently, I was born in the sixties, and am the former young women's' rugby coach. I've always had my eyes out, and fists up ready to fight for women's right to compete, Supporting a compromise for young children doesn't need to threaten any of that. The bill is for grades before reaching secondary school. What part of this do you fail to comprehend?

I've always defended gender benders of all sorts, and despite a genuine admiration for all women, lesbians, tom-boys, and butch girls interested in or involved in typically "boy things", like male-dominated sport have always held a special place in my heart.

How is someone in my position not being concerned for women, or not supporting women's sport here, especially as I want the best for Ryland?

Supporting trans children and teens isn't a a choice or a move against womankind, as you're wont to see that as. That's very small-minded of you.

THE CHILD WHO IS NOT EMBRACED BY THE VILLAGE WILL BURN IT DOWN TO FEEL ITS WARMTH African proverb

R165 That doesn't mean they're against allowing children to participate up to HS.... they want inclusion for Secondary, and Post-Secondary schools... Just to be clear on the matter

From the article: .But critics have said the language of the proposed changes would allow for schools to restrict trans youth’s participation in other ways, “particularly in competitive high school and college athletic environments.” The coalition urged Biden to revamp the proposal “in a way that allows trans people to fully participate in the sports of their choosing.”

[quote] Supporting trans children and teens isn't a a choice or a move against womankind, as you're wont to see that as. That's very small-minded of you.

R166 Yes it is. It is a move against womankind. It is a move against biology. It is a move against medical science. It is a move against common sense. And most of all, it is a move against reality. Something those in positions of authority should be promoting. Not lies/delusions.

[quote] The coalition urged Biden to revamp the proposal “in a way that allows trans people to fully participate in the sports of their choosing.”

R167 Thereby normalizing lies and delusion in the education system. Madness!!

R168 You like to continually move goalposts here, don't you? Girls up to eighth grade level are not women, THEY'RE GIRLS. Full-Stop.

[quote] You like to continually move goalposts here, don't you? Girls up to eighth grade level are not women, THEY'RE GIRLS. Full-Stop.

R170 You like to play/deflect with semantics, don't you? Girls/women/female, it's all the same.

R169 My reason for clarifying was to show the legislators were not against the lower grade students participating. The wording here was vague, and your post took advantage of that fact.

Biden's compromise doesn't support any of that, but you can't seem to stay on topic here, can you? You also fail to understand what the word compromise involves. You're simply guilty of being pig-headed here, and incapable of treating young students fairly. They're just children. Get over your anger, and wild indignation here.

Boys in dresses are not girls. They are not females. They are BOYS. They should be competing against other BOYS. NOT girls/females/women.

R173 ...and "girls" who are trans, like Ryland, deserve to participate up to the eighth grade, on a boys' team.

R172 No sensible person should be supporting any legislation that pretends that boys are girls. Obviously Biden's age and political expediency place him outside the realm of sensible.

R173 You only see boys, why are you so myopic? You see Ryland as a boy as well, which is quite odd, and against your staunch biological imperative.... all trans are therefore BOYS in your weird, upside-down world then?

You contradict yourself massively here!

Would love to see Ryland competing against boys after the 8th grade, r174. We all know how that would turn out and therefore why it won't happen, and it's nothing to do with so-called "transphobes".

R174 R176 Boys pretending to be girls are the overwhelming majority of instances. Because this is about erasing girls/females. And the mindless politicians, doctors and parents who should know better. But don't.

R178 What does it feel like to be capable of this mindless twaddle?

R179 Shoot the messenger when you have no response. So indicative of translunatics and their supporters. See examples of your identical response throughout this thread.

R178 In all honesty, I don't believe there are enough of these children to "erase" girls or women... that phrase that's so popular here is just as paranoid as the eldergays' mantra that trans are erasing gay people.

Since when have leagues of grown adults been so fearful of a bunch of children (no older than an eighth grader) ? This is madness.

Nothing sensible here. Sensibility is banning this shit completely. Do gays think banning ex-gay reintegrative therapy is sensible? Yes they do, ban both, or have both.

I hope Joe Manchin challenges him in 24 and really, really rocks the boat.

[quote]Since when have leagues of grown adults been so fearful of a bunch of children (no older than an eighth grader) ? This is madness.

It's madness, no question, but rightwingers have hated kids since I was a kid in the 1970s, and I'm sure prior to that in the 1960s, too. I'm old enough to remember people openly saying they wished more college kids were murdered at Kent State. Nixon used to make cracks about teens and college kids, and so did a lot of those rightwing celebrities who did things like hold "decency concerts" in the 1960s and 1970s.

It's always been a big part of the Republican brand to hate kids, but this time they're hating on even younger kids than usual, like you noted.

What happens when these kids reach the 9th grade, r183?

Who/what kids? ^

R184, mutilating little kids and destroying their ability to procreate and have intimate relations when they are adults simply because they do not conform to crude and outdated gender stereotypes is the real expression of hatred towards children. Forcing girls to play sports with boys, and share their locker rooms and bathrooms with boys, especially boys just discovering puberty, is the real expression of hatred towards children, especially female children. But we already knew that you hate all females, young and old.

It’s so funny men forcing themselves onto women. It’s just too funny.

R183 Joe Manchin is a corrupt pig, and a filthy industrialist with zero regard for workers. Choose better.

R188 Force themselves into women.

R184 Cheers, you get it.

[quote] It's always been a big part of the Republican brand to hate kids

R184 Lying to children, cruel pandering to delusion, abrogating rsponsibility, destroying trust. Yeah, that's so "progressive".

[quote][R183] Joe Manchin is a corrupt pig, and a filthy industrialist with zero regard for workers. Choose better.

As opposed to your support of transgenderism, which is so corrupt. So brutal, violent, dystopian! You need to look in the mirror.

Testosterone male:13–17 years old 208.08 to 496.58.

Testosterone in female: 13-17 years old 16.72 to 31.55.

We know it affects muscles and aggression. That's why we have different categories. You cannot develop in all that and call it fair. IT'S NOT FAIR. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE.

Just have a national trans league or something.

This is such an artificial debate, how many trans kids on teams are there ?

R185 enough to knock women off the podium when a mtf competes.

[quote]This is such an artificial debate, how many trans kids on teams are there ?

This is such a dismissive statement.

I wonder if he owns any ties that aren't blue.

If Lia had done that to a mostly black group of women athletes...smh.

That would have never happened because transgenderism is mostly a rich white male thing (rich white female too). But regardless, if it wasn’t — the media would have never allowed it. Nor blacks, and we have to coddle to blacks.

Only a black had the courage to call out the Wi Spa invasion. "It was a dude with a dick!"

An old school black woman who doesn't play with that shit. This new generation idk.

[quote]Only a black had the courage to call out the Wi Spa invasion. "It was a dude with a dick!"

No, it’s that whites cower to loud-mouth blacks.

Whites cower to anyone with a grievance. See the Ts.

White-guilt, for whatever reason.

[quote] Only a black had the courage to call out the Wi Spa invasion. "It was a dude with a dick!"

r201 It was actually one courageous Afro Latina woman who called out the Wi Spa male tranny and that pathetic Wi Spa employee and that pathetic woke douche white gay/transcultist from Portland who was mansplaining.

Good. Maybe when they see it's infringing upon female POCs rights will they take it seriously. Especially when it's usually a "former white man."

Taking synthetic testosterone is considered doping in sports. So even if we discount their general physical disadvantage from growing up female, FtM who take testosterone don't have nearly the same opportunity in competitive sports as the opportunities given to MtF.

Wonder why there isn't the same incidence of FtM competitive cases in male sports - there should be, right, if the trans version of 'truth' is accurate. That's why. Sports as competitive activities based on physical abilities are and will always favor the male sex.

[quote]“The fastest female sprinter in the world is American runner Allyson Felix, a woman with more gold medals than Usain Bolt. Her lifetime best for the 400-meter run is 49.26 seconds. Based on 2018 data, nearly 300 high-school boys in the U.S. alone could beat it.”

R194 Eighth graders in the US are usually thirteen, no? So the cut-off in Biden's proposal still seems fair in my eyes. I don't believe everything on a competitive level is purely about Testosterone levels at such a young age.

You're conveniently leaving out skill, coordination, general aptitude, and muscle development/tone.

Even for the eighth graders, which is the precise cut-off, one does not ordinarily see fully-developed male physical traits amongst eighth graders.

What’s a POC?

None, r195, because there is no such thing as a "trans kid". That is the other disgusting thing about the whole push around "trans kids" and sports - it's just propaganda to promote trans ideology in the most disgusting way, by promoting the idea that kids are born in the wrong body, which is just bullshit.

If there are “trans kids” then there are “ex-gay” kids, but they are pushing to ban reparative therapy for minors in the US, which is wrong—right?

R211 is right. No such thing as 'trans kids'.

But there is such a thing as kids transed by their parents, schools and the medical establishment because they were captured by the trans ideology.

"Let kids play", say the trans. To which people should say, "Kids know how to play. You leave them alone."

R195, the answer is 'more every day'!! More, and more, and more...

This is literally the ONLY issue where Democrats break from reality and science. It's ridiculous and undermines them entirely as a party of, ya know, reality and science.

[quote]If there are “trans kids” then there are “ex-gay” kids

False equivalency. This is a fallacy of accepting the wrong linkage as the correct one.

Trans kids don't equate with gay kids, they equate with EX-gay kids. Because both trans and ex-gay kids are the result of parental, institutional and societal influences and coercion. Nobody has been socialized or coerced into being gay but a lot of kids are into being trans.

The state of nature - meaning if left alone to adulthood - will produce much less trans individuals and rather more gay ones. So the linkage is actually inverse correlation.

I don’t know what you’re saying, lots of verbal diarrhea ^, but ex-gay is a valid identity just like any other. So is transracial. To deny either is pure hypocrisy.

Why are people not allowed to be trans racial? Because it would totally screw up college admissions?

Shaun King is transracial, yes? Colin Kaepernick is too. He’s not black but claims to be and has adopted archaic black stereotypes, same with King. But regardless, it’s a valid identity.