All Things Clifton Webb

Clifton was the veritable stereotype of the gay momma's boy. He took care of her and she doted on him. Being in Hollywood he made a decision to put his personal life tertiary to his mother and career. Not all Hollywood gays were capacious horn dogs.

Find it hard to believe Clifton Web went 50 or 60 years without anything from that side of life. Being a momma's boy doesn't stamp out one's deepest instincts.

Had no idea Clifton Web sang.

Then again Clifton Webb was interred next to his mother, so who knows.

Hollywood Forever cemetery always seems so forlorn and forgotten. So many famous actors and others are buried there, you'd think the place would make an effort.

From Wikipedia, this cunting:

On the Kraft Music Hall network radio broadcast of March 25, 1948, Webb exchanged banter with singer/actor Al Jolson and pianist/comedian Oscar Levant, with Webb, then near 60 himself, charging Jolson with "having aged". "You're not exactly a boy," responded Jolson, to which Levant added, "He's not exactly a girl, either."

[quote]OP:… but never the less became a huge success…

Oh, dear.

OP, Nevertheless is One Word and should always be spelled as such...

^^Oh, Dear. lol

As a young actor, Robert Wagner was a protégé of Clifton Webb and considered him a mentor. In his book "Pieces of Me", he confirmed that Webb was gay...

^^Not that there's anything wrong with that

[quote]Find it hard to believe Clifton Web went 50 or 60 years without anything from that side of life.

I know many gays that that gave up sex when HIV showed up. With masturbation no longer stigmatized rubbing one out is like brushing your teeth. There are many gays that do not crave actual physical intimacy. Clifton was probably very good at keeping old gay friends who also cherished their privacy. Friendships have always been a perfect substitute.

Clifton Webb co-starred with Lucille Ball in a 1940s film noir called The Dark Corner, it's on YouTube. It was good, held my interest throughout, Lucy was sassy and acerbic. :-)

My good friend Cris Alexander who was on Broadway in Auntie Mame, as well as Mr. Loomis in the movie, On the Town and Wonderful Town, told me that as part of his audition for Noel Coward's Present Laughter, on Broadway, he was sent to the Pierre Hotel, where he had sex with Clifton Webb, the star of the show. He got the part of the Bellboy.

He was born in 1889, 134 years ago, he died in 1966, almost 60 years ago, gay or not, there won't be many interests in him, it was so long ago. People who had the first hand knowledge of him were long dead. All the "gossip" you want to discuss will inevitably be pulled from online sources like Wikipedia etc, there really isn't anything new or fresh you can add here.

When Web's mother died, Noel Coward said "It's a pity to be orphaned at 70."

[quote] he had sex with Clifton Webb

R13 What kind of 'sex'?

He's almost pretty in the second picture.

Almost as pretty as Andrew Neighbors.

I didn't ask. R13

Where did my post go? R13

His singing voice is quite different to his speaking voice.

R19 You posted someone’s real name, dumbass. Don’t make up stories.

LAURA (44) is worth watching, if only for the scene in Waldo's bathroom (Detective Mark McPherson is shown in a close-up reaction shot snickering at Waldo's apparently puny cocklet, or so we are invited to infer).

This scene, r22?

Moderator, You deleted my post because "I posted someone's real name" I said my friend Cris had sex with Clifton. Both men are long dead but Cris told me this. You often post the name Scotty Bowers and famous people he had sex with. This thread was to learn if Webb had Gay sex. Why would people post their evidence if they are going to be called "liars" and "dumbass"? Dumbass? What are you eight years old?

My friend Lillian bought his 1956 Lincoln Continental from the estate and kept it for the next 20 years. I drove it - and her - to Hamburger Hamlet for dinner one night. It was still a gorgeous-looking car in the 1980’s.

That’s all I’ve got on Clifton Webb.

OP, you forgot the obligatory, "Eldergays -- who's had him?"

A real muff diver.

Winter muffs, that is.

Clifton Web and Noel Coward were apparently lifelong good friends.

"In his book My Life With Noël Coward, Graham Payn said of Webb: “His clipped. waspish personality amused Noël, though in later years it became increasingly irritating to him. Clifton’s manner was an attempt at an American “Noël Coward,” which may explain Noël’s ambivalent feelings. He was his mirror image, and there were days when he wasn’t in the mood to face it!”

"In his book My Life With Noël Coward, Graham Payn said of Webb: “His clipped. waspish personality amused Noël, though in later years it became increasingly irritating to him. Clifton’s manner was an attempt at an American “Noël Coward,” which may explain Noël’s ambivalent feelings. He was his mirror image, and there were days when he wasn’t in the mood to face it!”

"In his book, Behind The Screen: How Gays and Lesbians Saved Hollywood, William Mann says the line was actually said at the home of Billy Haines and Jimmy Shields. After a dinner party, about a year after Mabelle’s death, someone made a suggestion that everyone go downtown to see a XX Show. Deep in grief, Webb wanted nothing to do with merriment and kept saying, “It’s too soon, It’s too soon.” An exasperated Coward is said to have turned to to Webb and said, “You know, Clifton, it’s not a terrible thing to be orphaned at seventy four.”

They just don't write obituaries like this anymore.

[quote]Not all Hollywood gays were capacious horn dogs.

So who needs 'em?

Who is "Tom Douglas"

"Actor Robert Wagner, who co-starred with Webb in the films Stars and Stripes Forever and Titanic and considered the actor one of his mentors, stated in his memoirs, Pieces of My Heart: A Life, that "Clifton Webb was gay, of course, but he never made a pass at me, not that he would have".[8][9][10] "Webb simply adored Bob Wagner, who was then just about the best-looking actor in Hollywood," said Robert Wheaton. Wagner himself recalled Webb as "very kind and very generous... part of the family, in fact." Indeed, Webb remained in the actor's life even after Wagner's marriage in 1957 to Natalie Wood; a snapshot in Webb's private collection shows him in a simple cardigan sweater, beaming like a proud grandfather, surrounded by Wagner and his daughters.

In 1954, Tom Douglas and Clifton Webb were travelling with Dorothy di Frasso on a train, when the latter died apparently of heath attack.

Ray Striclyn remembered an incident during the making of The Remarkable Mr. Pennypacker (1959). Webb obtained tickets for him and another young actor from the cast, Ron Ely (later TV's Tarzan), to see Noël Coward in "Nude With Violin." When Clifton inquired later how they liked the play, Ely remarked, "Oh, it was okay, but that Coward guy was kinda..." He made a gesture that indicated "swishy." "I thought Clifton was going to explode," the actor Ray Stricklyn, who played Clifton's son in The Remarkable Mr. Pennypacker, said. "He quickly exited the set. He later told me that he'd gone to Buddy Adler's office to demand that Ron be fired, "I don't want anybody that stupid working in my picture!"" It was too late to recast Ely's part, however, so Webb simply cold-shouldered him for the rest of the shoot."

/quote:

R3 And saaaaaaaang!

Clifton Webb looked just like his mother. That woman did a huge number on her son apparently. Poor Clifton never stood a chance.

Supposedly Clifton Webb's home in California was haunted (it's long since been torn down) and his spirit haunts the cemetery where his remains are interred.

"In 1967, the house was purchased by Los Angeles Times gossip columnist Joyce Haber and her TV producer husband Douglas Cramer. Several times, while enjoying drinks by the pool, the two caught sight of a swaying figure in the master bedroom. "It was a dark, transparent shadow the size and shape of Clifton," Cramer said. "I never saw it up close, as Joyce did. I only saw it through a window when I was outside. I didn’t see clothes or details, but he always resembled Clifton and he seemed to be ageless."

Cramer also said he saw shadows in the hallway the size and shape of Mabelle. Their dogs reacted to cold spots in that hallway -- where Clifton was said to pace outside his mother’s bedroom. "They would not go near the cold spots in the hallway without barking enormously and often urinating on the spot," Cramer said. A cold presence was said to have attacked a maid on several occasions. On a hunch, Haber brought home one of Clifton's movies: When the dogs saw his image on the screen, all three began howling.

Haber also held a seance with some of Clifton's friends, including playwright Garson Kanin, actress Ruth Gordon, producer Dick Zanuck. "The seance convinced them all that Clifton was in the house," Cramer said. "And the medium, Sybil Leek, did become Clifton in mood and spirit and intent — and most particularly in language and dialect. She told things that only they knew about Clifton, things that Sybil could never have known." When asked why he stayed, he replied: "Because I’m afraid I’ll be forgotten."

After the seance, neither Clifton nor Mabelle were seen in the house again. Even the dogs stopped barking in the hallway. The Cramers divorced and sold the house in the '70s. The house was demolished in the 1990s."

Clifton Webb's now long gone home.

I remember a shop called Clifton's Web in Cleveland (the gay section, such as it was) in the 90s.

Joyce Haber, R33, was a nasty, vicious alcoholic bitch who replaced Hedda Hopper as a gossip columnist and whose “reporting” caused Jean Seberg to lose her baby after using FBI misinformation saying the father was not her husband, Romain Gary, but a Black Panther. Julie Andrews once said of her, “She needs open heart surgery and they should go in through her feet.”

Haber died fairly young at either 60 or 62 of liver and kidney failure. To the joy of many in Hollywood.

[quote] was a nasty, vicious alcoholic bitch

She would have fit in perfectly here.

Saturday Night at the Movies was, I think, the first national prime time TV series that weekly featured old movies, most of them from 1945-1955 and from the vault of 20th Century Fox. The series began in the very later 50s or early 60s if I recall, and it was event watching in our suburban household.

This is where I first saw Clifton Webb, who became a rather unexpected star attraction at the studio in that post-war era, in truly great films like Cheaper By the Dozen, Stars and Stripes Forever, Sitting Pretty, 3 Coins in the Fountain, The Remarkable Mr. Pennypacker, Woman's World and Titanic.

The series also featured all of Fox's fabulous Marilyn Monroe films and a lot of Susan Hayward, another big Fox star of that era, like With a Song in My Heart, My Foolish Heart, White Witch Doctor, I'll Cry Tomorrow and I Want to Live!

Fun times in front of the family TV.

[quote]Hollywood Forever cemetery always seems so forlorn and forgotten.

Forgotten? Hardly.

Webb's best girlfriend was actress Jeanne Eagels until her death in 1929. Eagels created the role of Sadie Thompson in Rain. This book covers a lot of their relationship.

Years ago in the mid-90s, the marble front slab to Webb's mausoleum crypt was loose and with a gentle nudge, would create three or four echoing "ba-BOOMs" in the large Abbey of the Palms hallway he was interred in, (next to Maybelle.) When I'd take people on tours, I'd bring them to Webb, temporarily distract them and set the piece to rocking. Almost everyone jumped. And once, attended a dinner held on the cemetery grounds and as a group, visited Webb in pitch black. Someone secretly nudged and we all ran outside screaming at the top of our lungs.

CW tangles with baritonal tyke George "Foghorn" Winslow in MISTER SCOUTMASTER (53). Movie resolves happily with Mr. Scoutmaster legally adopting the boy.

R24 Try to grow up

R13 Cool you were friends with Cris Alexander. He actually played Roland Maule, a supporting role as a crazy fan of Gary Essendine (Webb). I know because I saw him listed in the cast in my Baker's Plays script, when I also played Roland Maule (in the 90s).

Webb and Alexander.

Wasn't Cris Alexander also one of the 3 original sailors in ON THE TOWN on Broadway in1944? Or perhaps he sang one of them in the recording that was done a few years later?

R13 is still there. I think R13 blocked itself

My favorite Clifton Webb rumor is that Robert Mitchum was once his kept man. Lucky little prisspot.

I've read much gossip about Mitchum being a self loathing homosexual from years back on here.

His portrait was painted by George Bellows when he was a young man.

Robert Mitchum and Clifton Webb? Just don't see it unless it was purely a hands off relationship.

If RM was going in sit on that side of fence there were far better options.

R49 There were rumors other than Webb, obviously (someone years ago on DL worked on those bloated war miniseries with him the 80s and outright called him a big ol' queen), but it was apparently a sort of transactional thing when Mitchum got started in Hollywood.

Cris Alexander was schoolmates with Tony Randall and married to the handsome Shaun O'Brien.

Shaun O'Brien

Cris Alexander had small uncredited role (Mr. Loomis) in 1958 film "Mame"

My mentor George worked at 20 Century Fox in early 60's when things were winding down. He loved to tell us stories. He said Webb was madly in love with Tyrone Power. When Webb finally left the lot for good George went in to clean out his dressing room. At the bottom of Clifton's closet he found a framed autographed photo of just Ty's eyes. I miss George.

Hard to imagine a young Clifton Webb. But as a lad he was in the same traveling dance company as Rudolph Valentino. He often shared the same sleeping compartment with Rudy on the train. Cliff got around.

[quote]he confirmed that Webb was gay...

This is mere scandalous hearsay without a shred of evidence!

Clifton was all man.

Detective Mark McPherson is sneering at more than Waldo's puny body and perhaps other attributes in clip R23 . He's got Waldo pegged as a "fairy" (if you'll pardon me) as he enters, glances and walks about that bathroom.

All those mirrors, bottles of perfumes and potions, jars of creams and other bits alone were more suited to a lady's bathroom of the time. Then the rest of it including that huge tub so prominently placed and obviously designed for soaking hours upon end. Not the sort of thing a "real man" would have at all.

Satan Never Sleeps (1962) William Holden, Clifton Webb.

Clifton Web must have been hard up for money or something to appear in this hot mess.

Reviews were very unkind...

Young Robert Mitchum was indeed a thing of beauty, but still not sure about him being a kept man by Clifton Webb or anyone else.

Robert Mitchum arrived in Hollywood sometime in middle 1936's on invitation by his sister Julie Mitchum an actress. By 1940 he went back out east to marry his gf, they returned to CA and soon had three children.

For a man who was supposedly "kept" RW was home every night with his wife and kids after work.

From another DL thread on CW:

"According to Donald Bogle's bio of Waters, HEAT WAVE, the two white stars of the show (Webb and Marilyn Miller) had no social interaction with Waters offstage. At some point Webb took to greeting Ethel by saying, "Hi, Topsy." Waters, who didn't take shit from anyone, responded by greeting Webb with, "Hi, Pansy," at which point Webb stopped his racist greeting."

As Thousands Cheer was the musical revue.

Clifton Webb's number "How's Chances?" , which by the way has become sort of a standard covered by many other performers since.

Gorgeous Richard Chamberlain has a go.

Background:

For all the shit Ethel Waters put up with from whites both in and outside of entertainment industry she wasn't going to take more from some prissy white queen.

As Thousands Cheer was unique in that for first time on Broadway (IIRC) black performers were treated equal as whites far as pay went. Otherwise things were as they had been; Ethel Waters and other black performers were segregated from whites.

"As Thousands Cheer ran from September 30, 1933 to September 4, 1934 with a total of 400 shows. The revue was a major hit and Waters’ role symbolized a major barrier broken as she became a top-paid African American actress on Broadway. However, Waters was segregated from her white co-stars as she did not appear in any sketches with them. Stephen Bourne revealed that her co-stars refused to bow with her at the curtain call until Irving Berlin intervened."

R61, THEN FUCK HIM!

Playbill

R60 When Mitchum proposed to his wife Dorothy in 1940 he must have been confident of his future as an actor as his immortal words were, “Stick with me kid and you’ll be farting through silk.”

And she did. They were married for 57 years,

[quote]Cris Alexander had small uncredited role (Mr. Loomis) in 1958 film "Mame"

Oh, DEAR.

Turn in your gay card AT ONCE!

r38 i also vividly remember Webb on Saturday Night at the Movies early 60s

see complete list of films in link below

Ohh, young Richard Chamberlain. Who wouldn't want a slice of that?

And he could sing!

I don't think Lydecker's bathroom in Laura is feminine. If he was going for feminine, he could have made a lot more poofy than that.

*made it

Had no idea Joyce Haber was such a nasty piece of work.

Back story..

R73

That bathroom is more femme than butch. Understated femme it might be, but still is what it is.

Creepy.

From Wikipedia re As Thousands Cheer:

“The show had a successful tryout at Philadelphia’s Forrest Theatre in early September, although opening night was marred by an ugly incident all too in tune with the times: the stars Clifton Webb, Marilyn Miller, and Helen Broderick refused to take a bow with Ethel Waters. To his everlasting credit, Berlin told the three that of course he would respect their feelings – only in that case there needn’t be any bows at all.

“They took their bows with Waters at the next show.”

I was a fan of Webb's until I learned he was racist to the incomparable Ethel Waters.

It's a fuck him forever for me.

[quote] I was a fan of Webb's until I learned he was racist to the incomparable Ethel Waters

Shocking. Insupportable. Inconceivable. Deplorable.

Wow, somebody was casually racist in 1939? How fucking insane!

[quote] Wow, somebody was casually racist in 1939? How fucking insane!

Yes, especially considering Irvin Berlin, the man behind the music of As Thousands Cheer, was the exact opposite.

Interesting period review of "As Thousands Cheer"

Guess "Harlem singer" was code for "black"

White audiences loved going to see "coloured" entertainers. Long as they remained in the place things were fine.

Ethel Waters was a great talent everyone white, black of whatever knew it. Sadly for the huge fortune she made in her prime the woman ended her days in near poverty.

It was a mixed bag well past WWII and into 1950's and beyond.

For every director, producer or whoever in Hollywood that fought for this or that black actor or their race in general, others were happy with status quo. This or the former got nothing but grief for their efforts.

When Warner Bros did their big war effort musical (Thank Your Lucky Stars) there was no question of blacks under contract with WB being allowed to sing and dance with whites. So a separate number was devised and Vincente Minnelli charged with the project. For this he got nothing but grief from certain others at Warner Bros for bothering with the blacks.

There were many valid reasons why black performers of various arts packed up and went to Europe from say 1920's until WWII broke out.

[quote] Ethel Waters was a great talent everyone white, black of whatever knew it.

No, not "everyone" did know that.

He never sucked my dick, dear.

[quote] Yes, especially considering Irvin Berlin, the man behind the music of As Thousands Cheer, was the exact opposite.

Irving Berlin's life and complex career can't be reduced down to simplistic phrases like that.

[quote] Irving Berlin's life and complex career can't be reduced down to simplistic phrases like that.

No one was reducing anything. I was merely speaking facts.

Ethel Waters sang Supper Time in the revue. It's a song about how her man isn't coming home for supper any more. All the sketches and numbers in the show were preceded by projected newspaper headlines. Before that number there was a headline about a lynching.

I take stories about the curtain call with a grain of salt. Where's the real proof of it? If it's true, if they all were so aggrieved about taking a curtain call with her, why were the other stars even in the show with Ethel Waters? They were in a whole revue with her and only figured out at the last minute they'd be taking a curtain call with her?

I'm not trying to excuse anyone's behavior but perhaps Ethel Waters was billed below the title whereas Marilyn Miller, Clifton Webb and Helen Broderick were not only billed above the title but were more established Broadway stars when the show opened (I know at least Miller and Webb were HUGE Broadway stars by the early 1930s)?

Obviously, if the story is true, they were not very generous people but sadly that's show biz.

Waters got fourth, "with Ethel Waters" billing, beneath the Webb, Miller and Broderick and underneath the title.

R91 and R91

It could and likely did happen. We're talking about USA in 1930's which was still largely segregated by law or design even in such liberal cities such as NYC. As Ethel Water's number "Suppertime" tells blacks were still being lynched (something Ms. Waters personally knew of and or witnessed).

Clifton Webb and other white performers/actors in this revue were all born about late 1800's through early 1900's as such their views on race often reflected certain values.

Yes. some in theatre or film industry treated all white or black as equals (Clark Gable standing up for Hattie McDaniel), but others were quite happy to go with status quo.

Gone With The Wind wasn't filmed until nine years later and blacks in Hollywood/entertainment industry weren't doing that much better by then either. It took some work to get certain people to come around for Hattie McDaniel. Even with winning the Oscar Ms. McDaniel was still largely treated like dirt at that year's Academy Awards ceremony.

When the show moved to Chicago (with Dorothy Stone replacing Marilyn Miller) Ether Waters was billed above the title.

As Thousands Cheer had a revival back in 1998 that was very well received. Mind you it was off-Broadway but still...

"There was a good reason that the Drama Dept. decided to stage its 1998 hit production of the Irving Berlin-Moss Hart revue As Thousands Cheer in June, as opposed to the preceding spring or following fall. Summer was the only time when all the members of the show's illustrious cast -- including Judy Kuhn, Howard McGillan, B.D. Wong, Mary Beth Peil, Kevin Chamberlin, and Paula Newsome -- were available."

The song that later became a hit that Webb introduced in the show was "Easer Bonnet" - better known later as "Easter Parade".

Variety was very unkind.

Why don't we talk about something besides this show, like some of Webb's more entertaining film roles? Nobody has even mentioned Sitting Pretty. (His nomination for Best Actor, that he lost to Laurence Olivier in Hamlet.)

Here's a letter from Lauren Bacall to Clifton Webb after Bogie's death:

He's mentioned a lot in Maria Riva's book about her mother, Marlene Dietrich. They were pals.

"He's mentioned a lot in Maria Riva's book about her mother, Marlene Dietrich. They were pals."

Who was the top?

It's weird. I saw that Drama Dept. revival of As Thousands Cheer at Greenwich House, yet remember almost nothing about it, especially that faves Howard McGillin, BD Wong and Mary Beth Peil were even in it. I do happen to remember Paula Newsome who sang Supper Time because she was a dead ringer for Oprah, which in this case was unfortunately distracting. I also remember it all looking rather chintzy and undercooked.

Ohhh Howard McGillin!

Happily married to a lawyer.

Girl get your money!

The positioning of Ethel Waters on the poster for "As Thousands Cheer" must be the single greatest conundrum to occupy Datalounge since who should have play Ken in "Barbie" rather than Ryan Gosling.

[quote] "Easter Bonnet"

You eldergays should be able to confirm the rumor that Irving Berlin wrote a song for EVERY holiday on order to get as much song sales as possible.

Holiday Inn, Paramount, 1942

They had Valentine's Day and Washington's Birthday songs, NYE, Easter Parade (recycled), Thanksgiving, Fourth of July - everything on the sound soundtrack

I'm paraphrasing the quote, but as is well known Webb and his mother Maybelle were inseparable.

Apparently Humphrey Bogart once sternly told Clifton at a party at the Bogart's house, "I don't care that your mother drinks, but the next time she throws up, YOU clean it up!"

Is this familiar to anyone (not that you're old enough to have overheard it in person, of course!)

[quote] Apparently Humphrey Bogart once sternly told Clifton at a party at the Bogart's house, "I don't care that your mother drinks, but the next time she throws up, YOU clean it up!"

I thought he said this to Margaret Truman about Bess.

I can believe Marilyn Miller and Clifton Webb were prejudiced against Ethel Waters; that was sadly rampant back then. Glad to read Irving Berlin had Waters’ back. There’s a similar story about some entertainer not wanting to work onstage with black comedian Bert Williams in the Ziegfeld Follies; Flo Ziegfeld told this person “YOU can be replaced; Williams can’t!”

[quote] that was sadly rampant back then

Thank the Lord we have a superior morality now in the 21st century.

Clifton Webb cutting the rug with Marilyn Monroe.

Mr Belvedere Rings The Bell

Sitting Pretty 1948 Maureen O'Hara, Robert Young Clifton Webb

Clif was friendly with the Oliviers and often part of their gang. Once on tour in North Africa, or Australia, I don't remember which, he went for a camel ride with Viv and a few cast members and they got lost in the desert. Larry sent a Rolls Royce to the rescue, with the mission to bring Vivien Back. The RR found them, and inside was a fridge full of Champagne. For the rest of his life, it was one of his favorite anecdote. "Wherever you get lost with Vivien, even in the middle of the Sahara, at some point a Rolls Royce will appear out of nowhere, loaded with fresh Champagne"

"After Mr. Lode skidded to a halt, Williams accepted an unprecedented offer to join Flo Ziegfeld's Follies. The idea of a Black-featured performer amid an otherwise all-white show was a shock in 1910. Williams' initial reception was cool, and several cast members delivered an ultimatum to Ziegfeld that Williams be fired. Ziegfeld held firm, saying: "I can replace every one of you, except [Williams]." The show's writers were slow to devise material for him to perform, forcing Williams to repeat much of his vaudeville act. But by the time the show finally debuted in June, Williams was a sensation. In addition to his usual material, Williams appeared in a boxing sketch playing off the racially charged "Great White Hope" heavyweight bout that had just taken place between Jack Johnson and James J. Jeffries. Reviews were uniformly positive for Williams, and also for Fanny Brice, who was making her Broadway debut."

Many years ago, I bid on this at Christies East, NY. I was alas unsuccessful, and would love to know who bought it.

(15 December 1992: Christies Collectibles and Entertainment Memorabilia. )

1926 CARTIER MARILYN MILLER COCKTAIL SHAKER

A sterling silver four pint cocktail shaker marked "Cartier." Presented to theatre star Marilyn Miller in 1926 by actor Clifton Webb. Engraved across the front in script "Shake 'em up Marilyn - 1926 - Clifton."

Estimate $300-500, sold $1,210.

I know it's Clifton's thread but.....Howard M was otherworldly beautiful. And to know that he possesses an enormous endowment to boot.....some guys really DO have all the luck.

Clifton (whose real name was Webb Parmalee) and his mother, Maybelle.

*Webb Parmalee Hollenbeck

Ethel Waters wasn't supposed to be the nicest person either. I remember reading, among other things, that the very sweet Butterfly McQueen said that Waters was quite mean to her when they worked together.

Helen Broderick - from As Thousands Cheer, and a couple of Astaire-Rogers pictures - was the mother of Broderick Crawford, btw.

R123 Elia Kazan said in his autobiography that she was very difficult. He directed her in Pinky, 1949 - the film about a black girl returning to her Southern home town - she had been passing as white while going to nursing school, in another part of the country. (The movie was a huge hit, incidentally.)

There are glimpses of Clifton Webb's dancing in a couple of his films. I recall his dances with Maureen O'Hara briefly at a dinner dance in "Sitting Pretty" as Mr. Belvedere and then he dances in "Holiday For Lovers" in a scene where he sort of flirts with a hotel clerk to try to ingratiate himself with her to try to find out which room his daughter is in. He moved very well, though it's a shame there doesn't seem to be any real dancer numbers; he was considered a first-rate song and dance man, a star in "Ziegfeld Follies" and other Broadway shows before middle-aged film stardom in 'Laura" and other films.

IIRC Lena Horne also didn't have anything nice to say about Ethel Waters.

Clifton Webb dances with Maureen O'Hara, briefly.

Wasn't the pompous British actor portrayed by Jack Buchanan in THE BANDWAGON based on Clifton Webb?

Webb was born in Indiana.

Ethel was, as the kids would say now, ratchet as fuck.

I always found it interesting Bogie was so close with Webb, there's a number of pictures of them hanging out. Then again, he was far from the tough guy image he put on in real life - he came from a wealthy and educated family, and was a cultured FDR Democrat.

Alongside Larry Olivier in matching straw hats....

In 1933-34, Clifton Webb signed a 5-year contract with MGM, with the hope that the Broadway star would be the studio's resident Fred Astaire (who was then signed to RKO), starting with his first feature film, "Elegance" with Joan Crawford. But Webb arrived in town with his mother, Mabelle, on his arm and his fancy French poodle, Ernest (The Importance of Being...) leashed by his side. He gave an interview with Hedda Hopper that revealed a rather effete aesthetic. Louis B had second thoughts about their new leading man and didn't put him in a single picture for the next 18 months before Webb asked to be released and headed back to New York with Mabelle and Ernest.

It didn't help that Miss Crawford pulled out of the picture after she discovered that a) her role was a secondary part, and b) she couldn't keep up with Webb during rehearsals.

Waters had a very hard life, having to deal daily with racist cunts like Miller and Webb. I cut her a lot of slack.

I'm glad I didn't win that cocktail shaker.

Yes, R134, The Woke Bible says you MUST stay angry over other people's behavior from almost a century ago.

I'm also Team Ethel .......Can't even imagine all the shit that went down.

It seems most of the people who talked shit on Ethel were her fellow black women.

Where does Miss Waters fit among the pantheon of DL's "Ethels"?

Merman, Mertz, Shutta, Barrymore ...

Don't be frivolous, R138, we are still weeping over Ethel Water's trauma.

[quote]Don't be frivolous, [R138], we are still weeping over Ethel Water's trauma.

And I'm weeping over your inability to use apostrophes correctly.

When doing Gone With The Wind, Hattie McDaniel said of Butterfly McQueen she wouldn't be asked back to Hollywood because she "complained too much".

"When costar Butterfly McQueen rebelled against her demeaning character Prissy, intentionally flubbing lines and demanding that star Vivien Leigh apologize after a stinging onscreen slap, McDaniel counseled caution. “McQueen later claimed McDaniel took her aside and warned her, ‘You’ll never come back to Hollywood; you complain too much,’” writes Watts."

[quote] intentionally flubbing lines…

Who was flubbing lines?

r135: I'm not 'woke'. I'm progressive. I don't demand that all Clifton Webb movies be banned or that all Marilyn Miller playbills be pulped. Miller remains one of the most important musical theater stars from the early part of the 20th century, and I have a slim hope that maybe a full-Technicolor film of "SALLY" is eventually found. I can['t stand Webb as a performer, though.

But their behavior to Waters - and Webb's "Hi, Topsy!~" is one of the ugliest things I've heard a performer doing to another.

So, R143, you've merely heard about this behavior.

You didn't see it, you didn't hear it directly. You read a second-hand anecdote.

r86: Minnelli didn't stage "Ice Cold Katie", LeRoy Prinz did.

You're thinking of "Public Melody Number 1" staged by Minnelli for Paramount's ARTISTS AND MODELS (1937) with Louis Armstrong and Martha Raye in blackface. It's a great number by Harold Arlen & Ted Koehler. Minnelli's original concept was largely discarded to his horror, and left Hollywood. The fact that a white female singer (even in blackface) performing with an African-American male disturbed several critics , one of them noting that "the mixing of the races is not wise...it may have a negative affect on Rayes career" It did - from that out point on , many believed that Martha was mixed-race, and she was refused admittance to an apartment in Greenwich Village (!) because of it.

(Coincidentally, LeRoy Prinz staged the other numbers in the film)

Regarding THANK YOUR LUCKY STARS: In the finale, all the stars in the film are shown inside glittering stars. McDaniel is shown sitting on a moon.

r144: A published anecdote.

But my goodness .....the way you seem invested in the story, sounds like you rather approve of such behavior.

[quote] IIRC Lena Horne also didn't have anything nice to say about Ethel Waters.

Stop lying. Lena Horne and Ethel Waters bumped heads when filming Cabin in the Sky, but they later patched things up with Horne giving Waters the greatest compliment after she died: "Ethel Waters was the mother of us all."

LeRoy Prinz eventually rose to become dance director of Warner Bros. studios. To say not everyone was impressed or thrilled would be an understatement.

Thank Your Lucky Stars featured Bette Davis doing her one and only (IIRC) on film song and dance number. Once was enough and Bette swore never again (again IIRC).

Were it not for war effort one doubts Bette Davis would have bothered.

Other great number featured the gorgeous Ann Sheridan in "Love Isn't Born, It's Made" giving a very daring message for the time to young women. Probably slipped past censors in way things were written and Ann Sheridan's performance.

MGM - More stars than there are in the heavens.

Sorry, wrong link.

Carry on!

He was a racist who refused to take curtain calls with Ethel Waters until forced to.

[quote] He was a racist who refused to take curtain calls with Ethel Waters

Oh, OK, where did you hear that news?

Can someone explain the context/meaning of "Topsy?"

See:

Or...

thank you

Perhaps not so much read or known widely today, but for persons born in later part of 1800's through early 1900's at least Uncle Tom's Cabin dare one say required reading.

Topsy Jane; Julie Christie's rival.

Butterfly McQueen briefly teamed up again with Hattie McDaniel on "The Beulah Show" playing Oriole, Beulah's side kick. It didn't last and after several episodes Butterfly McQueen was replaced by Ruby Dandridge (mother of Dorothy Dandridge) who also had same sort of squeaky voice.

Butterfly McQueen just wasn't happy playing domestics and wouldn't keep quite enough about it; sadly for her there just weren't then that many other roles on offer in Hollywood; big or small screen.

While can understand her point; a girl has to eat which is likely why Ms. McQueen took that role on "The Beulah Show"

Again it just was a different era.

Spencer Tracy joins a not short list of actors who appeared in blackface in films.

"The African Dodger, also known as Hit the Coon or Hit the Nigger Baby, was a carnival game played in the United States. In the game, an African-American man (or someone in blackface) would stick his head through a curtain, and attempt to dodge objects, such as eggs or baseballs, thrown at him. The victims often suffered serious injuries."

So those who think Clifton Webb couldn't, wouldn't or didn't say "Hi Topsy" to Ethel Waters and or refuse to take curtain calls with AA actress think on.

People looking at American say pre WWII via today's woke view are going to be disappointed. Entertainment businesses (theatre, film, television, performing arts, etc...) were no different than American society at large at that time. Some whites were broad minded, others not so much.

Clifton Webb likely was no different than some white queens today that have certain views of blacks. Only difference is today an actor would be publicly shammed and fired from a production for saying what Webb did to Ethel Waters. Back then it was largely; "and?"....

Crystal Allen : Why, of course I can cook!

Pat : She thinks because Lulu's dark, he wont be able to see her!

[quote] People looking at American say pre WWII via today's woke view are going to be disappointed.

Yes, R162, we sought. We searched for the light and we were severely disappointed.

Praise The Lord we now have such superior morality in the 21st century.

Joan Crawford in blackface (1953)

The sensible statesman.

Young Robert Wagner in this clip from "Titanic" (1953)

Though everyone says otherwise you know Clifton Webb wanted to hit (or be hit by) this; don't see why not, everyone else would.

I've learned my new word for today; " paterfamilias"

Barbara Stanwyck married to Clifton Webb; some how I can see that working in real life.

Bathroom scene from "Laura" again since this one shows things more clearly IMHO close up.

Clifton Webb like many others of his generation seems rather puny. While he lived well as an adult one wonders what is diet was like as a boy and young teen.

Cheaper By the Dozen is one Clifton Webb film one remembers seeing on television. Only recall the ending mostly, with Myrna Loy's character taking up where her husband left off.

Seeing the film as a young teen just laughed my ass off at suggestion of Clifton Webb playing husband and father of all those children. Hollywood is known for dreams and fantasies but that took the cake.

Three Coins In The Fountain (1954)

More Clifton Webb film clips.

According to a Douglas Fairbanks Jr autobiography, Clifton made a hand rubbing above the knee move on handsome Doug Jr as Doug Jr was driving Webb to some Hollywood dinner party. Doug Jr was rude enough to laugh out loud as he rejected Webb's pass and Webb demanded to be let out of the car "this instant!" He refused to speak to Doug Jr for some years after the incident, but they eventually reconciled.

I may be misremembering this episode, but I am sure I read about Webb being out with the divine Tallulah and them sitting at some bar and being served by a very handsome and possibly bi-sexual bartender. Tallu and Webb had a mock battle (which included throwing peanuts at the bartender to get his attention), as to who would get the bartender later on that evening and were both disappointed when the guy went home with someone else.

R129 The character, Jeff Cordova, in Band Wagon (1953), was not based on Clifton Webb. Rather, Clifton Webb was the original choice to play Jeff Cordova.

The character was a Broadway star-producer-director similar to Jose Ferrer or Orson Welles.

[quote] Seeing the film as a young teen just laughed my ass off at suggestion of Clifton Webb playing husband and father of all those children. Hollywood is known for dreams and fantasies but that took the cake.

Your young teen gaydar must have been aff the charts since Webb played the part differently from his usual screen characters, in a different accent and voice, and demeanor. Not prissy, or bitchy at all, and he had a lower voice.

[quote] Where does Miss Waters fit among the pantheon of DL's "Ethels"? Merman, Mertz, Shutta, Barrymore ...

Mustn't forget me!

[quote]Can someone explain the context/meaning of "Topsy?"

If you didn't get that reference, I assume you're equally confused by "like Eliza on the ice" from "Getting Married Today" ("Company.")

Spencer Tracy was a great admirer of Ziegfeld star Bert Williams, saying he was the funniest man he ever saw.

I need to see the Stanwyck/Webb Titanic. It must have been the Golden Age’s Moment to Moment.

Ethel Water went from singing torch songs and sexy numbers to singing with the Billy Graham Crusade for years. Later on she mostly sang religious music. But in this clip from The Mike Douglas Show she was interviewed and sang Cabin In The Sky. With Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly sitting next to her - this was from a celebration for That's Entertainment Part 2.

I love the Duncan Sisters, r156.

R82 R162

Webb was known for being exceptionally racist even for his time. That's why it was remarked upon.

It is interesting that two of the most sophisticated men of the 20th century - Clifton Webb and Cole Porter - came from Indiana.

They were also two of the century's most prodigious cocksuckers.

Threads like this are why I keep coming back to Datalounge. Nowhere else could I find 184 people who know or care about Clifton Webb and his milieu.

At 6:17, Lena Horne tells Dick Cavett about her opinion (in hindsight) about Ethel Waters. She explains that Ethel had a hard life as a youngster, and also as a young performer who, many times, had to work in the worst of places. She had to pay her dues to finally become a very popular Broadway star, and resented that Lena was a young pretty girl who MGM signed up as a starlet without having paid the same dues, and that "sex" had gotten her that rare opportunity. Lena was later able to understand Ethel's bitterness towards her, and was able to have sympathy for her because of it.

Yes, Clifton Webb did make his move on young Douglass Fairbanks, Jr.

"HE is the son of the movies' first swashbuckling superhero. His first stepmother was America's sweetheart, Mary Pickford. His first wife - he was 19 years old, she of an uncertain age, although she admitted to 21 - was Joan Crawford. His lovers included Marlene Dietrich and Gertrude Lawrence and, at one time or another, he says, both Jean Harlow and Clifton Webb made unprovoked advances."

Douglass Fairbanks, Jr. apparently thought no more of it and he and Mrs. Douglass Fairbanks, Jr. were lifelong friends of Clifton Webb.

A thank you letter Douglass Fairbanks, Jr. wrote to thank Clifton Webb after he visited.

"Cliffie:

I have done many difficult things in my life but as I sit down to write this I am only to [sic] cognizant that this letter is presenting unprecedented hurdles. Because of this do be tolerant of my writing by typewriter rather than by hand. You couldn't even read it, I am sure, the other way.

Deep feelings have never had adequate speech and this is no exception. We have thousands of words at our disposal and a comfortable assortment of adjectives but when we have something of deep import such as telling a friend how grateful one is to him for his friendship and thanking him for many things that must go throughout infinity unrepaid, they all become as useless and futile as Christ's death or a Nun's twitch to a eunuch.

Your visit here has done much for me. Never have I had such a good time. I am indefinitely obligated to you for everything. Your stay was like a welcome rain after a long draught [sic]. Only on leaving you have left with us a memory too wonderful and too profound to be so inadequately described as that.

If brevity is the soul of wit then silence must of necessity be the soul of emotion and by that same token I am without further words.

Nominating myself as a committee of one representing the Lady and your most humble, residing at Webbfair (if you remember) I extend to you the deepest and most sincere compliment within our restricted powers in the form of two words: Come again!

We simply adore you-

Doug.

/quote

What class! Who writes thank you notes at all nowadays?

I just found out that Ethel Waters sang Stormy Weather (the song strongly associated with Lena Horne) BEFORE she did. Lena sang this song in Cabin In The Sky, the film in which both these stars appeared. I can understand even more why Ethel was bitter about Lena.

There is only 1 's' in Douglas.

[quote] I just found out that Ethel Waters sang Stormy Weather (the song strongly associated with Lena Horne) BEFORE she did. Lena sang this song in Cabin In The Sky

Lena performed it in the film Stormy Weather, released the same year as Cabin in the Sky.

One of my favorite Ethel movie numbers, by Arlen & Harburg from CAIRO (1942) where she played Jeanette MacDonald's maid.

The exchange between her and Dooley Wilson afterwards is the icing on the cake.

R190 Unless you're Douglass Montgomery.

On the issue of "Topsy" Mae Barnes had the funniest come-back to that role.

Great Ethel Waters thread.

Oops Thanks, r191.

Stormy Weather first performed live by Ethel in 1933

Ethel Waters played Sammy Davis Jr.'s mother in Rufus Jones for President (1933). It is racist, but Sammy Davis is talented and so cute that I overlook the racism. It's weird though, Waters as his mom tells him he can be anything, including president, but then sings a song telling him to "stay on his own side of the fence."

Ethel's two big numbers from As Thousands Cheer...

Heatwave

And for a total change of pace...

Suppertime

Hey this thread is about me

thanks R194..... more about Mae

Hey...

Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. was the original Nepo Baby.

So there, Jamie Lee.

Dearest Dougie...

The Barrymores were nepo babies.

What did Topsy do at the end of the play "Uncle Tom's Cabin"?

She took off her makeup and went back to the hotel.

Someone should post that amazing clip of Ethel Waters singing Taking a Chance on Love!

Blinded by Clifton Webb.

Although Webb was an unpleasant racist, he was wonderful in The Razor's Edge with Tyrone Power, Gene Tierney, Anne Baxter, and Herbert Marshall. Best snob ever. Beyond that, it's a wonderful film about a young WWI veteran played by Power who turns down a job as a stockbroker to live in a bohemian manner in Europe in order to discover his true values. His gorgeous fiancée doesn't understand why he won't pursue money and social position.

Anne's Oscar

The Razor's Edge was a very enjoyable book but in my opinion the 1946 movie is not great. Gene Tierney, especially, is inadequate in the important role of Isabel. It's not my favorite Clifton Webb performance, either, but it's distinguished by being his most poofy film performance by far (which was intentional). Anne Baxter won her Oscar for the film and I think the gradiosity that began to creep into her acting can be traced to her winning that Oscar.

*grandiosity

[quote] Webb was an unpleasant racist,

We spit on him! We abhor him!

She really did, r212

I got Anne Baxter's autograph. Then she and the people she was staying with in Denver walked behind me for a block and a half to the parking lot. I kept thinking...Anne Baxter is walking *right* right behind me.

Fox wanted Judy Garland, but MGM refused to loan her out., So Baxter got the part.

Reportedly Zanuck offered the part to Betty Grable who laughed in his face and said "You're kidding, right?"

Are you talking about Anne's role in The Razor's Edge in All About Eve, r217?

Either way, Zanuck was kidding, right?

R218 He's talking about The Razor's Edge.

I think Grable also turned down Blondell's role in Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Betty was pretty adamant that she was "a song & dance" girl.

Marilyn did a much better job with "Heat Wave" in TNBLSB.

Ethel Merman did pretty well with it in Alexalnder's Ragtime Band.

Ethel Waters and Webb did not get along.

I remember Myrna Loy saying she didn't like him all that much when they worked together in Cheaper By The Dozen, but I forget why. Snobby or standoffish, I think.

R223

Webb was famously very racist to Waters.

He was very good in a low-key dramatic role in the excellent WWII film, The Man Who Never Was, from the 1950s. The story was about Operation Mincemeat, "a 1943 British intelligence plan to deceive the Axis powers into thinking the Allied invasion of Sicily would take place elsewhere in the Mediterranean." Webb is convincing as a British naval officer.

Can we move on from Ethel Waters now?

Betty Grable was fabulous and a total pro. Of course, she didn’t have grifters poisoning her mind with the idea that her limited and joyful range was beneath her and she needed to be a SERIOUS ACTRESS. Though unlike MM, she could show up on time and ready to work, so maybe she could have tackled heavier fare.

Poor queen Webb can’t even sustain his own thread because of a throwaway comment not much worse than the gays on here make today!

Garland was sought for Baxter's role of 'Sophie' in THE RAZORS EDGE. Sophie plays a former friend of the protagonist Larry (Ty Power) who becomes an alcoholic and dog addict after her child and husband are killed in a car crash who needs to be sedated and winds up getting stabbed to death and thrown on a garbage heap. In retrospect, the cloose-to-the-bone role might well have been too harrowing for her. Plus, she'd be co-starring with Ty, a former lover.

Zanuck's first choice for Eve Harrington was Jeanne Crain, who might have been really interesting as she was always the sweet girl-nest-door and had just won an Oscar nomination for PINKY. (Maybe not quite the girl-next-door, but still) As Eve, she would have played totally against type. But Mankiewicz did not want her. She played innocent very well, and it would be easy to see how Margo could have been taken in by her.

MGM didn't loan Garland. Maybe because other sudios were not aware of her addictions and her insomnia which caused her to call in late or sick at MGM all the time. I don't think MGM would have been able to control the narrative as much, had she been loaned out. They didn't loan stars a lot, anyway. Gene Kelly lost out on Sunset Boulevard (he was thought of after Monty Clift quit, but when MGM was approached, they refused to consider a loan out). Also Guys And Dolls. June Allyson lost out on Johnny Belinda (Warner Bros.), and I think she mentioned she was appraoched about doing Eve.

Elizabeth Taylor got loaned out for three big movies in the 50s - A Place in the Sun, Elephant Walk, and Giant.

Deborah Kerr was also loaned out semi-often. And wasn’t Jimmy Stewart at MGM before the 50s? He did a lot of work outside the studio.

Of the major studios, it seems that Paramount or RKO had the least issue with loaning out stars.

(20th was interested in Garland for Sophie, and Warner Bros. was interested in her - or Michael Curtiz was - for Romance On The High Seas. He ended up using Doris Day and it made her a star.)

Thank goodness that June didn’t get to eff up JOHNNY BELINDA. It would have put a fatwa on her ass.

The years of possible loan out for Judy and Gene mentioned upthread were their busiest at MGM, so it's no surprise that the studio wouldn't have wanted to lose a precious second with them, especially as they starred in big musicals which required months of careful planning and scheduling and extra rehearsal time (and it was hard enough with Judy's unreliability).

I think Gene was loaned out to Columbia and Universal initially in his MGM tenure because MGM couldn't quite figure out what to do with him, as crazy as that might sound.

What are all these nobodies and dark folks doing on MY thread?

I can only tolerate Webb in TITANIC and that was because Barbara Stanwyck was in it.

"Pinky" also starred two famous Ethel's; Barrymore and the much mentioned Waters, which brings us right back to how much Clifton and Ethel W. didn't love each other.

Bert Lahr, the cowardly lion in Oz, was a major Broadway star who was reputed to despise most of his female co-stars at some point in a play run. One of the very few who passed muster with him was the delicious Betty Grable. He loved her and loved working with her in "DuBarry was a Lady."

[quote]One of the very few who passed muster with him was the delicious Betty Grable. He loved her and loved working with her in "DuBarry was a Lady."

Probably because she was...delicious.

Really, did anyone ever say a bad word about Betty Grable?

Yes, R238.

George Sanders said her nose was too long and her mouth too broad.

That's not what R238 meant.

He also told her she was too short for that gesture.

He also told her that high heels in a bathing suit is not a good look.

R225, Waters called him a "pansy", she was probably a bigot herself.

IIRC Ethel Waters had at least one lesbian relationship. This likely was when young and long before she found God and became born again.

Thus don't believe Ms. Water's retort was a sign of bigotry, but just giving good as she got.

Fuck that dead old queen.

I agree, r244. Don't fuck with Ethel.

SHE deserves a Broadway Theater named in her honor. Lena Horne, not so much.

R246 Neither of them particularly deserve that. Not before a lot of other people.

There are MANY Trans Women of Color who are more deserving of having a Broadway theater named after them!

Fuck off, R248.