British Actors: Posh or Not?

OP, you really can't tell the difference between a posh (that is, Received Pronunciation or RP) accent and, say, a Cockney accent or a strong Northern accent? It's not a subtle difference.

Can you hear the difference between, say, a Boston accent and a Philadelphia accent? Or a strong Southern accent?

OP, you seem a bit retarded.

R1 I certainly can hear a cockney accent. After years of GBBO, yes, I now can recognize northern accents and I understand they are looked down upon by classist Brits. I was struck when Fiona Hill—who has a lovely manner of speaking to my ear—testified that her working-class regional accent would have prohibited her from any social advancement in the UK and it's why she moved here to the US.

But although I do hear what defines northern accents, which sound to me like they're nearly Scottish at times, I guess I can't always discern them because Ian McKellen is from Lancashire in NW England and Patrick Stewart is from Yorkshire in NE England and both sound refined and upper class to me. They certainly don't sound or act anything like gruff Paul Hollywood, who seems like the urban dictionary illustration of a northern UK class stereotype.

R1 And yes, I am generally good with a lot of subtle regional US accents because I have worked for a national association for 15 years and have come to be able to immediately discern between not just typically recognizable accents (NY, Boston, 'Southern'), but NC vs SC, Tennessee, Louisiana, Missouri and Texas used to sound 'southern' to me and now they sound utterly distinct. Likewise, Iowa vs Kansas vs Wyoming; Minnesota vs Wisconsin, et al. But my ear for discerning accents is limited to those that I hear regularly and a lot of. My assoc doesn't work actively with most New England states, for example, and if there's any difference among Rhode Island, New Hamshire, Vermont and other New England states, I couldn't tell you to save my life.

OP, Michael Caine is non-posh, in fact he’s Cockney. Not many people know that.

I can't think of the last UK actor who was born Posh.

Rose Leslie was, though. Her birth name is Rose Arbuthnot-Leslie and her family lives in a castle.

Real question : Laurence Fox’s critics have accused him of being posh but does coming from a famous acting family make you posh?

Yes, I would classify the Fox family as posh. Not as uber-posh as Arbuthnot-Leslie, but pretty damn posh. I knew Amelia at Uni and she was incredibly posh. Very nice girl, actually.

Also, no one really says "posh" anymore, unless they're doing so in a mocking way.

R6 See the OP. Cara Delevigne and every actor who went to Eaton have to be considered posh, no?

Yes, Cara Delevigne is genuinely posh. She's descended from the Barons of Redesdale (aka the Mitfords).

The Eton actors, such as Benedict Cumberbatch, are all, to my knowlege upper middle class and are only posh-adjacent.

Eton doesn't make one "posh", otherwise every Russian and Chineses oligarch's kid would suddenly be "posh". They sometimes become posh-adjacent, but are the living embodiment of all that is decidedly Not Posh.

No-one says 'posh' any more. Also, everyday use of RP is generally being replaced with Estuary English. Even William and Harry use the glottal-stops associated with the EE dialect.

I know people who went to some of the top schools in the country and they come from serious old money but they don't talk in RP. RP's for newsreaders and the stage.

Agreed, r12. RP is all but dead now.

R13 some people did an analysis of the late Queen’s accent from her Christmas broadcasts over the decades and found that although of course she still used RP until the end that her accent subtly changed to one closer to others. They attributed it to watching television and interacting with normal citizens. Even RP has changed to the extent it exists. Apparently Wills’s accent is basically Estuary English.

R3 I never bought Fiona Hill's claim her accent would have prevented her from gaining access in politics in the UK. Harold Wilson became Prime Minister when Fiona was 8 years old.

Figuring how "posh" an actor is doesn't make sense as actors learn to talk properly. Unless you're Michael Caine, who never lost his lower class accent.

[quote]Eaton

Not posh, my dear!

Let me put it to you this way, if you are American it’s kind of superfluous to attempt to guess class and demographics from changing speech patterns. There are people from the UK that went to Eaton and Oxford, that think that everyone should have the same opportunity. There are people in the UK from backgrounds where university is not included that think that society should be stratified.

Some of the most socially aware and empathic people I’ve ever met have been well educated at universities in the UK. Everyone is an individual and to give you an example, and I’m not going to name names, there’s a UK Olympic team member, who comes from an aristocratic background that was completely against the invasion of Afghanistan, which caused the Olympics in 1980 to be canceled. That person indicated that it’s a tribute to the spirit of friendship that them and ( a person so posh that they were friends of the queen) could stay friends when both had opposing views. And this is the top of the top echelon of society and all of that person’s male relatives are army officers ..

[quote] Florence Pugh grew up rich with a successful restauranteur father

Oh, dear.

As a Brit there's a sort of "British Fake Posh Accent for American Audiences" I hear a lot in American productions often by actual Brits. It drives me crazy. It just sounds grating to an English ear.

The brits are so tiring with their poor or rich accents, Who really cares.

OMG - America has an upper class, not unlike the English one. But they don't seek public attention or fame. EVER. Not the real American upper class. Maybe that's why you don't seem to be aware of them. I'm sure some of them marry famous people etc and their names are known because of it, but they key it cool and don't seek attention either.

I thought English actors studied voice at drama school and the posh London accent was the preferred choice in classic plays. They could do regional accents for modern plays that required it.

Tom Hanks did a Dutch accent in the Elvis movie. I was shocked to find out that he was not Dutch!

[quote]Ralph Fiennes: I would have guessed working class, but he grew up rich and connected to generations of family who have been knighted. 'This is so b*********. and all it is, is f—— England’s obsession with class, and it’s so depressing. And it’s a media construct to run stupid articles about class this, posh actors that. 'It’s so retarded to me, the discussion. It’s not true. There are parts for everyone.'

He would say that, wouldn't he?

What do you mean, Not many people know Michael Caine is a Cockney? For one thing he never shuts up about it, and for another, on the rare occasions he has had to use an Oxford Standard accent (Zulu being the main one that comes to mind) he's really not good at it.

[quote] There are people from the UK that went to Eaton and Oxford, that think

[quote]There are people in the UK from backgrounds where university is not included that think

Oh dear oh dear oh DEAR!

what i find interesting is how good British actors who have their accents transformed sound - most don't sound forced or affected- they just developed very nice speaking voices. English people can tell a genuine very posh person from someone who just speak, what we might identify as, well.

I agree Michael Caine's "posh speaking voice" doesn't sound very nice or the least bit posh - even when he tries. I personally think he's a dreadful actor all round. I don't understand his long success AT ALL. But most people LOVE him and think he's all round terrific.

There's a difference between posh and privileged here.

Helena Bonham Carter is posh because of her family connections and wealth - as well as the Bonham Carters she is the great grand daughter of Herbert Asquith, a non posh British Prime Minister.

Kate Beckinsale (50 today!) is privileged, not posh. She's the daughter of two working class actors, with her father Richard Beckinsale dying when he was 31, when Kate was 5. But there was enough money to pay for her to go to an expensive school.

I think Caine and other actors with regional accents are able to neutralize their accents so that it is less noticeable. This makes them able to pass for posh or upper class when necessary without having a cartoon London accent.

an extreme example of someone born into the working class but who created a posh accent was Kenneth Williams.

OP you have managed to take a not-beaten to-death-on-DL-topic and make it dull.

Yeah, OP, DULL.

If you want to hear truly posh accents, get ahold of the Alec Guinness series of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy (1979). (On Amazon in my country.) They are SO cut-glass posh I could hardly understand them. One of the leads is Ian Richardson from the UK House of Cards, but even in that his voice has moderated, as the Queen's did over the years.

R31, and another was Noel Coward. His mother took in lodgers when he was a kid. He learned to speak in the theatre.

OP posh and rich are quite often not the same thing.

R5, one of the best-known things about Michael Caine is that he's a cockney. In fact, it's his selling point.

Kate Winslet is of modest, albeit theatrical, background.

Idris Elba is not from a posh or wealthy background.

Cara Delevigne isn't an actor, OP.

Bunch of Tory toffs. Posh gits.

There are many working-class and lower-middle-class actors on UK television. The ones that have a big international career tend to be from wealthier backgrounds and have had an elite education, however, which makes sense given that those are the types of Brits that the rest of the world is interested in.

America does NOT have a real upper class. America has people with money, and money rarely lasts more than a few generations. You need an actual aristocracy to have a real upper class. And its members have to all go to the same schools and marry each other.

As a non-Brit, I’m sure I won’t ever understand the exact gradations of the English class system, but using the example of some actresses my understanding would be:

Posh: Miranda Hart - comes from a family of high ranking military officials, colonial administrators and aristocrats. Joanna Lumley - comes from a family of “Jewel in the Crown” type military officers who had been in British India for several generations, her accent is if anything extra “posh” because she comes from that expat community; Prunella Scales - comes from a family who owned cotton mills, probably Victorian era “new” money.

Middle class: it seems to me when the British talk about the traditional middle class, they mostly mean what we would think of as upper middle in North America - university educated professionals who likely send their children to private school. Judi Dench and Maggie Smith are both the daughters of doctors. Jennifer Saunders and Dawn French are both the daughters of officers in the RAF.

Lower Middle Class: I get the sense that Victoria Wood was from a class background that was just a little bit higher than the “upper working” class she was famous for satirizing. Patricia Routledge - grammar school girl and daughter of a haberdasher would be similar.

Working Class: Kathy Burke and Julie Walters are both the daughters of construction workers and with recent Irish immigrant backgrounds.

Kardashians? Oh christ, not even close.

What accent does Cate Blanchett have? It sou ds manly, thatni know for sure but is it posh?

I like the Liverpool accent

Why did Kate middleton accent change to something so whisper and breathless?

Cate Blanchett is Australian, not English.

Blanchett has the Australian version of a “posh accent” - I think they call it cultivated?

[quote] Cate Blanchett is Australian, not English.

You wouldn't know it when you hear her speak. She has cultivated a male British accent

R22 is right. The US has many, many wealthy people who live quietly and arent known. The trash like the Kardashians and Beyonce are just stupid rich with no taste.

I know several people who have hordes of money but don't spend stupidly or ostentatiously. They live in nice but not crazy houses, drive normal cars or trucks and are not decked out in the latest designer duds. If they do splurge it's on nice vacations.

[quote]Cara Delevigne is genuinely posh. She's descended from the Barons of Redesdale (aka the Mitfords).

Are you sure you weren't thinking of Stella Tennant?

I think one of the big differences is that the United States is so big it has a bunch of regional “upper classes” that don’t really have any unifying institutions and don’t really mix much.

True R50. We're all familiar with the NY Social Diary threads (I miss those). Down here we have Farbs, Wyatts, Moodys and Kickerillos. No one outside Texas probably knows them.

Maggie Smith told Graham Norton that Ben Kingsley puts on ridiculous airs (and gets very shirty if not addressed by his proper title), and so she refers to him as "Sir King Bensley."

Tilda Swinton is incredibly posh: she is from one of the three oldest families in all of Great Britain.

And what is that called R53? What family is this? It all amke sense why Tilda looks like an albino inbred

At one time, a would-be -actor in England would have had to have attended a drama school* to make the connections that would land him work, and would have been taught (no matter what regional accent he or she was born with) to speak received pronunciation appropriate for theatrical productions. *Schools such as: 1. The Royal Academy of Dramatic Art (RADA) 2. London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art (LAMDA) 3. Guildhall School of Music and Drama 4. Bristol Old Vic 5. Mountview Academy of Theatre Arts

I think that in the past 20 years or so, there's been less emphasis on training people out of their born accents, since many British TV shows now seem to value regional accents and there isn't much theatrical work that demands old-fashioned RP. However, I think drama schools still emphasize the importance of working with a dialect coach when preparing for a role that demands something specific.

Older actors of the generation of Patrick Stewart would have had no choice. Their natural accent would have been drilled out of them. "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain".

I'm not sure that accent is the sole defining element of class-distinction in Britain. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it's not. There was a time when only the aristocracy attended famous pre-college schools, such as Eton and Harrow, schools that made the effort to train everyone to speak English in the same refined way, but that hasn't been true for the past 150 years. (Wealthy people were ultimately allowed to attend, no matter their backgrounds). There are books in England that list aristocratic families (such as Burke's Peerage and more modern counterparts) and it doesn't take much effort to look up people to find out if their families are in it. People in England seem to spend a lot of time looking for clues about whether someone is from one of those families or is just from a wealthy family that could afford to send them to the best schools.

I did laugh at r53's post about Tilda Swinton. "She's from one of the 3 oldest families in all of Great Britain". Well, no. She may well be from one of the 3 oldest families recorded in a book such as the peerage above. However, 90% of the families in Britain are just as old , it not much much older. It's just that they have names like Smith and Jones, and no aristocracy or landed gentry in their family lines.

R47 bring Australian I probably would know. She sounds like a lot of my friends - we don’t all sound like Dame Edna. And what’s a “male British accent” anyway?

R55, you're assuming that the only British actors are the ones with a "posh" background, but they are simply the ones who mostly have an international career. Most actors on British TV are from "normal" backgrounds. And I mean British TV, not Netflix

[quote]Kate Beckinsale (50 today!) is privileged, not posh. She's the daughter of two working class actors, with her father Richard Beckinsale dying when he was 31, when Kate was 5. But there was enough money to pay for her to go to an expensive school.

That explains why Beckinsale has never vibed as posh to me despite her schooling. There's something working class council estate about her to me.

R51 If one was in NYC in the 1980s, one knows Lynn Wyatt!

^ Yes, she was always in Spy's "Party Poop."

r60 This deserves a post, for the uninitiated.

^^ That’s American upper class? Ok…

R62 I never said that. I said “I remember her.” The Wyatt’s are American nouveau riche, but they have been nouveau riche for so long that next to the current crop of strivers, they look like royalty. By the way, this argument has been going on since Mrs, Astor’s 400.

Americans, by virtue of our history, do not accept or recognize any category of nobility (or aristocracy) as representing some sort of superior social being. We do however recognize the categories of ladies and gentlemen, which people can earn by exhibiting refined manners, a good education which is reflected in thoughtful speech, enough knowledge of the arts (music, dance, theater, visual arts) to be able to participate fully in conversations about them, and an aim always to demonstrate concern for the comfort and well-being of the people in one's presence. Those categories are independent of financial class, but obviously people with financial means will find it easier to make sure their children are well-educated and moderately well-spoken.

So I would say that Americans differentiate between financial classes or categories, which are solely dictated by income or accumulated wealth, and CLASS as a category of refinement and education - a sort of meritocracy based upon behavior. In the past, the wealthiest classes in the US aspired to create a high standard for themselves in terms of manners and education, although obviously they didn't all succeed in this attempt. I think that that "system" has broken down in the past 50 or even 75 years. There are now many people of extreme wealth in the US who don't exhibit any sort of refinement and don't seem to have any desire to acquire it. Whether in Britain or in the US, I, as an American, would treat anyone who demonstrated gentility with great respect. If I saw someone behaving in a rude, gross, or patronizing way, no matter his or her birth or rank, I would turn my back on him without any qualms.

Aristocracy is irrelevant to class in Britain today, r64, and has been for about a hundred years, if not more.

Your comment is also irrelevant to the thread.

Au contraire. We've had at least 10 comments about such and such an actor or actress not being posh or not being from the "real" upper class. Posh (from the urban dictionary)The word means rich, ARISTOCRATIC, wealthy, loaded, fancy, toff, toffee nosed, UPPER CRUST, well off, or well to do.

See r6, r8, r10, r11, r29, r35 , r39 - and the many discussions about so and so is not really posh, merely privileged, with further discussions about family connections, and the three oldest families in the country, etc.

But I would agree that the aristocracy is indeed irrelevant to younger people in Britain, at least from what I read. And that might date all the way back to the Beatles, who were massively popular and obviously from working class backgrounds.

If a person watches British Antiques Roadshow, it is almost always held in the current or former residence of a member of the aristocracy, and there is always a bit of a history lesson about the house and the family that built it. Some of the hosts of the show talk about how their parents or grandparents were in service. So it's not as though that history was magically wiped out 100 years ago.

Some people on Datalounge commenting on whether an actor is posh or not or a TV show being held in an old stately home does not mean the aristocracy is relevant to the class system, r66. Do you understand what the class system is?

R16 is right. Lots of actors such as Judi Dench and Helen Mirren were taught RP in drama school, before that they would have had regional accents.

Helen Mironoff is a member of the Russian nobility.

r67, this is what Wikipedia says in its article about current social class in Britain:

"The British "upper class" is statistically very small and consists of the peerage, gentry and hereditary landowners, among others. Those in possession of a hereditary title (for example, a dukedom, a marquessate, an earldom, a viscountcy, a barony, a baronetcy, or a Scottish lordship of parliament) are typically members of the upper class, while those in possession or right to a coat of arms are typically at least members of the upper middle class.[citation needed]

Traditionally, upper class children were brought up at home by a nanny for the first few years of their lives, and then home schooled by private tutors. From the late-nineteenth century, it became increasingly popular for upper-class families to mimic the middle classes in sending their children to public schools, which had been predominantly founded to serve the educational needs of the middle class.

Nowadays, when children are old enough, they may attend a prep school or pre-preparatory school. Moving into secondary education, it is still commonplace for upper-class children to attend a public school, although it is not unheard of for certain families to send their children to state schools.[84] Continuing education goals can vary from family to family; it may, in part, be based on the educational history of the family. In the past, both the British Army and Royal Navy have been the institutions of choice. Equally, the clergy, as well as academia, particularly within the arts and humanities divisions of Britain's oldest and most prestigious universities (Oxbridge), have been traditional career paths amongst the upper class - indeed until 1840 the majority of Oxbridge graduates were destined for ordination."

In other words, r70, the aristocracy is irrelevant to the class system in Britain today.

I once heard an interview with McKellen, where he said that he having his original accent ironed out, he said it cost him a certain authenticity and would do things differently if he could life his life over.

But, as others said above, UK actors were trained to use a generic accent when he was young, and probably needed to use a posh style of speaking to break into the business.

Eddie Redmayne went to Eton with Prince William, they were classmates and played sports together, and are chums to this day.

Redmayne is POSH. Rich family, related to aristocrats, Trinity College Cambridge. Fooking posh.

Can back up R70, I went to a state school with a viscount, who became an Earl whose uncle was a Duke who got their land given to them by Richard II. A very down to earth sort of lad who spoke well but not RP or "posh". We both went to Cambridge, just my time wasn't fully paid for by mater and pater. You can always tell true aristocracy, they dress plainly and often quite shabbily and yet with expensive items, hard to explain, imagine those candid off duty pictures of the QEII at Balmoral sat in from of a 2 bar electric fire with only 1 bar on as there's no need to be extravagant.

*the* QEII - I've made her sound like a cruise liner!

R74, nothing r70 copied from Wikipedia shows that the aristocracy is relevant to the class system in Britain today, however - as your experience of going to a state school with a viscount testifies.

When talking about "posh", don't forget that Victoria Beckham was considered posh in her early days.

[quote]America does NOT have a real upper class. America has people with money, and money rarely lasts more than a few generations. You need an actual aristocracy to have a real upper class. And its members have to all go to the same schools and marry each other.

r41, why do you think we have both terms, aristocracy and upper class, if they mean exactly the same thing?

I obviously don’t think they mean the same thing when I say you must have one to have the other.

No one has asked the experts about Kip Harrington, so I’ll take a guess: Aristocrat who tries to deny his poshness, but is married to the aforementioned Rose Leslie, the incredibly posh daughter of a clan Chieftain. Posh-adjacent?

How did I do?

R38 may be trying for clever, but Cara D. has appeared in film and TV in roles other than “herself”.

That doesn't make her an actor, r81. It makes her a girl with Conde Nast connections who was first offered a modelling career, which made her one of those celebs who's famous just for being famous, and since then an attempt has been made to create an acting career for her, despite the fact she can't act. She's really not comparable with Ian McKellen or Kate Winslet.

It's true R76, I was rather backing Wikipedia's statements than R70.

Kit Harrington of the Harrington Baronets is practically working class as he won't end up being the 16th Baron of Ridlington, that will be his brother.

You make good points R82. I’ve seen her in a couple of roles and she’s far from memorable. But she is, by definition, an actor. I don’t think she’s much of a model either, and didn’t realize her modeling career was engineered as well.

Oh r74 QE11 as you call her was not one to deprive herself - at all. One bar of an electric fire - right. The lady and her family were/are coddled their whole lives, enjoying extreme privilege all along the way.

He called her QEII, which is correct, r86, not QE11.

I’ve been notified by Muriel that r87 has replied to me. Sorry doll I must have you blocked as I can’t see your reply. You must be a cunt. Off you fuck!

What's the point of blocking me if you're still going to reply?

R77 Victoria Beckham was considered “posh” only in comparison to the other Spice Girls and because her father drove a Rolls Royce, having made some cash in electrical goods stores.

One of the columnists in Private Eye always made a point of referring to her as “Slightly Less Common Spice”.

OP - I think a huge part of your confusion is that you're conflating economic status with social class. While they are, of course, connected, they are not the same thing historically in British society. Today, they definitely are not as all classes of society are now mostly filled with "look at me" attention seekers.

Think of it this way, a "posh" background has facets that cannot be bought. It's upbringing and the social circle with whom you were raised. Of course, it requires some amount of money to live that lifestyle.

Have you ever seen those Tiktoks or youtube videos that talk about stuff you only know if you grew up poor. Well, the same thing is true if you grew up posh.

Sure r90, but that's also what "posh" means. It's an odd word. It kind of reminds me of what Fran Lebowitz said about Trump and why so many "white trash" MAGAts like him while railing away at the middle-class elite - he's a poor person's idea of what a rich person is.

"Posh" is what "poor" people think being rich is. Obviously, calling Victoria "posh" was a marketing ploy, but it worked because it was believable.

Irrelevant? Pish.

Port Out Starboard Home

The people who say “posh” aren’t.

UK here. Some of these post are hilarious. I’ve met people from all kinds of backgrounds, and I’ve always found that middle class people are the most insecure about where they fit in, and the most likely to be rude and obnoxious. Genuinely posh people have beautiful manners and would never dream of making anyone feel uncomfortable.

My sister in law is an actress, and had her Scottish accent drummed out of her at drama school, like everyone else in her class. She can do many regional accents and this means she can work in a steady way.

Drama schools in the UK, especially in England, have become the province of the well off. Tuition fees mean that it is beyond the financial reach of many aspiring actors from working class backgrounds.

Are you sure they tried to "drum the Scottish accent out of her" at drama school, r96, or simply tried to teach her how to perform different accents?

[quote] Drama schools in the UK, especially in England, have become the province of the well off. Tuition fees mean that it is beyond the financial reach of many aspiring actors from working class backgrounds.

There are plenty of working class actors in Britain but there’s so much snobbery that you are only considered to have ‘made if’ if you appear in a certain type of product.

Suranne Jones, Joanne Froggatt, Michelle Keegan and Jenna Coleman all stated off in soaps and now headline primetime dramas but aren’t celebrated as a success in the same way their American equivalents are, or a British actor who started in less ‘common’ acting roles.