Democrats' Sympathies in Middle East Shift to Palestinians

murderers

every mosques should be monitered

Is posho M Ansher? I had no idea.

Avi Mayer is a cutie!

I have noticed that many liberals have become very anti-religion, except for Islam.

They are very defensive of Muslims.

🤷‍♂️

So that's where DLers get their penchant for homo-murdering cultures.

My sympathies have always been with the Palestinians.

There appears to be nobody you *won't* bash, r6.

It's difficult for you to be accepting of people, isn't it, r5?

He is, R4. He's gay and has a nice body, as seen on his Instagram before it went private.

Progressives loved Israel until 1967 when the Jews decided they won't be victims. The trend accelerated as blacks gain influence in the party.

And speaking of penchant for homo-murdering culturs, R8 R9 steps right up.

R5

Democrats DO NOT like Islam.

Democrats defend Muslims because they’re being unfairly treated, just like all other minorities.

I had no idea Avi Mayer was gay. He used to wear a kippah in one of his social media photos which made him look like a fundie.

[quote] Democrats defend Muslims because they’re being unfairly treated

Someone should explain to R14 that the sane/rational don't defend those they find deplorable. Someone should also explain to R14 that 1.7 billion Muslims would be outraged at any ignorant attempt to separate them from Islam.

^^^^ R13, not R14

R15

So you think mass shootings in mosques are fine? Or innocent Muslims being targeted on the streets?

R15/r16 are both blocked here. It must be Anscher's socks.

R17 About as much as Muslims care about innocent gays and Jews being targeted. Or Muslim terror against the innocent populations of America, Europe, Asia and Africa.

R17 And while we're on the subject of mass shootings, would you that showed the same outrage about innocent gays who were murdered by Omar Mateen, a Muslim.

The Muslims love to use Mosques as human shields and as headquarters for the terrorists squads

R17 Would that you showed the same outrage about Abu Marhia, hiding in Israel from his family, who kidnapped him, took him back to Hebron, and beheaded him for the "crime" of being gay.

Attmay troll thread.

[quote] The Muslims love to use Mosques as human shields

R21 Buildings are not "human shields", people are. Both Hamas and the PA use their populations as human shields. Dead Gazans are especially excellent for PR. Ask Haniyeh.

Delectable Avi and his feetS

[quote] The Muslims love to use Mosques as human shields

What a fucking idiot.

Clickbait headline bullshit.

From OP's article

[quote] [bold][italic]Consistent with prior years, Americans view Israel much more favorably than they do the Palestinian Authority, 68% versus 26%.[/bold][/italic]

"Sympathies" is a wiggle word.

I might say I feel more "sympathetic" towards Palestinians because their lives suck because the PA and Hamas are corrupt, self-destructive organizationsv versus the Israelis who are living in a first world country with (until a month or so ago) a liberal democratic government, a booming tech sector and excellent health care.

Gross.

Is it all Democrats or those awful “progressives”?

Read Jimmy Carter's book, Peace, not Apartheid. It's an eye opener. The fact is the United States has always been Pro Israel. And it was difficult because for a while Israel stupidly thought if they remained "neutral" they could flirt with Russia and it would be OK. But we were able to navigate that and they realized that since Russia was bullshitting them, and was the actor behind much of the unrest in the ME with Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and others they realized there was no where else to go. The U.S. has been their staunchest ally for decades. We have pored uncountable amounts of $$ into Israel and are committed to its defense. Carter successfully brokered the Camp David Accords which hold to this day, and brought peace the parts of the Middle East. (One of the things that earned him Russia's undying hatred.) Jordan and Egypt and the Saudis calmed down and got along with Israel. Now, it seems Bebe that whore has jumped in bed with oligarchs, and embraced the extreme Right, and Putin is his BFF. Putin thrives on chaos. Her hopes to distract us with turbulence in the MIddle East, so we will be forced to back away from Ukraine. Some people in the foreign policy community see Russia's commitment to "endless war" in Ukraine as a way of weakening Putin and destroying the RUssian economy so the Russians will dump him and his cronies. But two can play that game and Putin has successfully pried the Saudi Prince MBS into his pockets, he has all but neutralized Turkey with another Extremist whore, Ertogan, and now he is playing Bebe. The Palestinians cannot even control their own electricity and water supplies. They come in to Israel to work at menial jobs and return to what has become a ghetto in the grand tradition of Warsaw, every night. They children are raised under the threat of violence, and can't even get a decent education. The sense of hopelessness among the young is beyond tragic. I think it would be a good idea to get informed abut this mess from an historical perspective. The Palestinians are not a nation right now. They're a captive nationality. Palestinians live in Jordan, and have assimilated. But several millions would like their own nation, and Israel is determined to destroy it and erase them. Ironic isn't it.

[quote] Palestinians because their lives suck because the PA and Hamas are corrupt, self-destructive organizations

R27 The populations of the West Bank and Gaza live no differently to the other 1.7 billion Muslims who live in corrupt, failed societies at the whim of the despots who rule them.

[quote] a liberal democratic government

Israel's government has never been "liberal" or very "democratic". The Knesset is 120 power hungry politicians attempting to gain power/control for themselves/their parties.

r27 I can tell you don't like the finding, but there's nothing clickbaity about the headline. The headline refers to Democrats, not Americans as a whole. But even among the general American population, Israel's popularity is eroding. In 2016, 62% of Americans sympathized more with Israel and 15% with Palestinians. This year, it's 54% for Israel and 31% for Palestinians, the first time ever the ratio dips below 2-to-1, as Gallup observed. That Americans don't think highly of the Palestinian Authority is irrelevant -- even Palestinians profoundly dislike it, as well.

[quote] [bold]Consistent with prior years, [/bold]Americans view Israel much more favorably than they do the Palestinian Authority, 68% versus 26%.

R32

r33 Is that supposed to be some gotcha? The text in the OP itself indicates that 2023 is the first year ever where Democrats are more sympathetic to Palestinians than to Israelis. It's therefore implicit that Americans have a long history of sympathizing more with Israel. I think you misunderstood the argument Gallup made.

This is propaganda designed to divide and antagonize, and to split the Democrats between pro Israelis and Pro Palestinians. It is possible to support Israel, and still criticize it's leadership when they fuck up. And Be Be Netanyahu is one of the most corrupt vicious POS bastards ever to lead them. And he is a whore for money. Never enough. Bebe doesn't care about Israel. He cares about Bebe.

[quote] Now, it seems Bebe that whore has jumped in bed with oligarchs, and embraced the extreme Right, and Putin is his BFF.

R30 Netanyahu was PM for 20 years and didn't "embrace the extreme Right". Where in the world do you get the idea that he suddenly has?

[quote] Her hopes to distract us with turbulence in the MIddle East, so we will be forced to back away from Ukraine.

The Muslim world has always been "turbulent". Constant fighting for power and control. Russia/Putin plays no part.

[quote] They children are raised under the threat of violence, and can't even get a decent education.

If only Hamas and the PA would stop using schools (and hospitals) as weapons dumps . . .

quote [Netanyahu was PM for 20 years and didn't "embrace the extreme Right". Where in the world do you get the idea that he suddenly has?]

Have you been following the news lately, R36?

What R35 said. I have nothing against Jews personally except those weird culty ones but Israeli leadership sucks.

Dataloungers are all melodramatic elderly autists.

R36...

R36...

[quote]What [R35] said. I have nothing against Jews personally except those weird culty ones but Israeli leadership sucks.

I love white gay male progressives. I love them.

R36...

[quote]Democrats defend Muslims because they’re being unfairly treated, just like all other minorities.

Democrats think Muslims are basic and patronise them with their toleration of their middle age customs which they would condemn if it came from a white European group.

Medhi Hassan is considered a progressive by Democrats - he's got a record of misogynistic and homophobic comments and is opposed to abortion. But it's his religion so it's cool!

[quote]I have noticed that many liberals have become very anti-religion, except for Islam. They are very defensive of Muslims.

These are not liberals, these are “progressives”. These are “blue” Trumpers, and I wouldn’t even call them Democrats, because they probably aren’t. These are people who most likely rarely voted (before 2016) if at all, or voted Green Party.

[quote] Be Be Netanyahu is one of the most corrupt vicious POS bastards ever to lead them.

R35 posts his ignorance about Netanyahu, the Israeli political system and Israel's politicians. Netanyahu is no more or less corrupt than any other Knesset member. Knesset members have sat in jail on various corruption charges from across the political spectrum, from Ehud Olmert to Arieh Deri.

[quote] Bebe doesn't care about Israel. He cares about Bebe.

Just like every other politician in Israel and in the rest of the world for that matter.

[quote] Have you been following the news lately, [R36]?

R37 Lately, and for the past 40 years. Have you?

[quote]The Israeli Government Goes Extreme Right

[quote] What to Know About Netanyahu’s Far-Right Government in Israel

[quote] Israel’s new right-wing government is even more extreme than protests would have you think

There's a definite pattern to the media' reportage and one must ask how much has something to do with reality and how much has it to do with personal dislike of Netanyahu. One must also ask which parties are in the current coalition that weren't there during Netanyahu's previous terms. One must also ask why Netanyahu's government is tarred as "extreme right", when the previous PM Naftali Bennett and his party were even further right than Likud.

R42: ya call?

If he carries on like this Owen Jones will have calf muscles by the time he hits 45.

All our problems with Arabs stem from our support for Israel, a theocracy. Without US financial and military support, Israel wouldn't exist. They cost US taxpayers a fortune. My solution for world peace has always been give each Israeli "reparations": $5 million each and 40 acres and a mule in underpopulated Wyoming. That would certainly be cheaper than what Israel costs us in one year. If they don't accept the offer, they're on their own.

One admirable thing about Israel is that despite the attempts of the right wing towards authoritarianism the protests have been peaceful.

Women haven't been deliberately shot in the face, men haven't been publicly executed for treason and there aren't torture chambers set up to interrogate those leading the protests.

Israel is a democracy, at least at the moment.

The protests have been peaceful because they're Jewish. We all know what Israel does to non-Jews who dare rise up.

[quote]All our problems with Arabs stem from our support for Israel, a theocracy. Without US financial and military support, Israel wouldn't exist. They cost US taxpayers a fortune. My solution for world peace has always been give each Israeli "reparations": $5 million each and 40 acres and a mule in underpopulated Wyoming. That would certainly be cheaper than what Israel costs us in one year. If they don't accept the offer, they're on their own.

What do you think would happen to Jews in the region if the US did withdraw military and financial support?

Or rather, what would you like to happen to Jews in the region, a region where Jews have lived for thousands of years.

R49 is suggesting giving the entire population of 9.5 million Israelis $5 million each to resettle--in Wyoming, of all places--at a cost of $45 trillion. It's a good thing you're not in charge--of anything.

R52 lived there for thousands of years, did they? When they get interviewed on CNN Int'l, most of them appear to have Brooklyn accents.

[quote]Or rather, what would you like to happen to Jews in the region, a region where Jews have lived for thousands of years.

You’ll never get an answer to this, but I’m sure he’s salivating.

Palestine for the Palestinians...not the land-grabbing Israeli thieves occupying land that isn't theirs.

[quote] All our problems with Arabs stem from our support for Israel, a theocracy.

R49 needs to look up the word theocracy.

All "our problems with the Arabs" stem from the on-going war between Islam and the West. Israel is the excuse. As usual.

[quote] Without US financial and military support, Israel wouldn't exist. They cost US taxpayers a fortune.

Neither would Jordan, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq or the other countries receiving US aid. Yet the only one you object to is Israel. No surprise.

[quote] My solution for world peace

An oxymoron if there ever was one asserted from complete ignorance.

[quote][R52] lived there for thousands of years, did they? When they get interviewed on CNN Int'l, most of them appear to have Brooklyn accents.

They're decolonising themselves from stolen land in the United States and going back to the land of their ancestors.

R57 eldergay here who knows it all started with Palestinians complaining about Israelis treating them like Hitler treated the Jews. And then it spread. But of course, the US needs to do Israel's bidding cause.... why?

[quote]Palestine for the Palestinians...not the land-grabbing Israeli thieves occupying land that isn't theirs.

I feel the same about the United States, Canada and Argentina.

All the white Europeans should return the land they stole and return to Europe.

I love how R49 sits on his fat white ass, on actual stolen indigenous land, fantasizing about ethnically cleansing Jews from the land that gave birth to their culture, their ancestral homeland.

[quote] Palestine for the Palestinians

R56 is completely clueless about the history of a region that has been under constant conquest and occupation - including by "Palestinians" - for 4,000 years. The only thing he's absolutely sure of is that the land does not belong to those fucking Jews!

What a surprise. Another cliff the Democrats have found to drive off.

Keep it up.

Whelp, it's about that time for this reminder to the clueless:

In the 2nd Century CE, the last attempt of the Jews to achieve independence from the Roman Empire ended with the well-known event of Masada, that is historically documented and universally recognized as the fact that determined the Jewish Diaspora in a definitive way. The Land where these things happened was until then the province known as Judæa, and there is no mention of any place called "Palestine" before that time. The Roman emperor Hadrian was utterly upset with the Jewish Nation and wanted to erase the name of Israel and Judah from the face of the Earth, so that there would be no memory of the country that belonged to that rebel people. He decided to replace the denomination of that Roman province and resorted to ancient history in order to find a name that might appear appropriate, and found that an extinct people that was unknown in Roman times, called "Philistines", was once dwelling in that area and were enemies of the Israelites. Therefore, according to Latin spelling, he invented the new name: "Palæstina", a name that would be also hateful for the Jews as it reminded them their old foes. He did so with the explicit purpose of effacing any trace of Jewish history. Ancient Romans, as well as modern Palestinians, have fulfilled the Hebrew Scriptures Prophecy that declares: "They lay crafty plans against Your People... they say: ‘come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more'." - Tehilim 83:3-4 (Psalm 83:3-4).

They failed, as Israel is alive and thrives.

Israel is alive and thrives because it is a US protectorate. Without the US, they don't exist. Israel's basically Guam that picks fights with the native population.

To be fair, it’s not so much that Democrats are pro-Palestinian, but rather there are many who are anti-Semitic.

[quote] it all started with Palestinians complaining about Israelis treating them like Hitler treated the Jews.

R59 Uh, no. It started 2,000 years ago with the conquest and expulsion of the nation of Israel from its land. See R64 for details.

[quote] the US needs to do Israel's bidding cause.... why?

The US does the "bidding" of many countries, such as Saudi Arabia. That's what allies do.

"Palestinians" are not indigenous to what is now Israel.

Moreover, they already got one country, it's called Jordan. Transjordan (now Jordan) was also created out of British Mandate Palestine. Then they were offered part of was left over in 1947 but they rejected it because they didn't want to share it with Jews.

But why let history or facts get int he way of your Jew hatred.

Thank you r64. I don’t know what is being taught in World History these days but you are exactly right.

even their own scholars know the truth

[quote]Without the US, they don't exist.

How much does that piss you off. I bet a lot.

R66 Israel is a country, a theocracy I'll grant you, but a country all the same. The anti-Semites support Israel - see all those rightwing Christian fundies who love Israel and hate Jews.

Marxism at work.

[quote]The only thing he's absolutely sure of is that the land does not belong to those fucking Jews!

R62. You got it, baby. You're defending the illegal land-grabbers, I see.

[quote]Israel is a country, a theocracy

So you just throw out lies.

Israel is not a 'theocracy". Yet the Arab countries---you know the ones where it's legal to kill gays including "Palestine"--- ARE theocracies, or ruled by religious zealots.

Marxism at work? WTF?

[quote][R62]. You got it, baby. You're defending the illegal land-grabbers, I see.

For people against "colonization," you should support Jews who are indigenous to that land finally repatriating after 2000 years of Roman, Byzantine, Muslim, Turkish and British rulers.

But again, you have no clue about the actual history.

R49 it's about geography. We need the region. It is about our own strategic interests. And the reason there has been turbulence in the Middle East, is Russia, Russia, Russia. It has been a cornerstone of their foreign policy since long before Putin took over. Netanyahu is a wild card. He wants to erase the Palestinians, and he want to provoke war with Lebanon, so he can entrap the United States into war with Iran. This has been his goal for years. He peddled it to Bush and some of Cheney's Neo-Cons were pushing for it, and then he tried Obama and so forth. Bebe should be in prison, not running a government.

[quote]Israel's basically Guam that picks fights with the native population.

Tell us you're a moron without telling us you're a moron.

Guam? Right, Because Guam has a thriving economy including a successful tech/start=up culture, and national healthcare.

And Jews are the native population, not the Jordanians/Syrians/Egyptians who began squatting there in the late 19th century (and didn't call themselves "Palestinians" until 1967)

[quote] You're defending the illegal land-grabbers,

R74 As you are. But you give legitimacy to your illegal land-grabbers. No surprise.

[quote]illegal land-grabbers

Can you explain this?

It's because Israel has adopted a lot of right wing traits that really turn Dems off. Also the Palestinians have correctly marketed their cause and rebranded it as a victim class fighting genocide and colonialism, which really speaks to American progressives. Also you have so many Republicans who only support a "tough" Israel because 1) they believe Armageddon will bring the second coming of Christ and 2) it is a indirect opportunity to be Islamaphobic. These right wingers are the most anti semitic, but I guess the Israeli government doesn't know or care. Having Netanyahu on Fox News probably didn't help the opinions of Democrats on Israel.

I wish you could un-WW.

[quote] I feel the same about the United States, Canada and Argentina.

[quote] All the white Europeans should return the land they stole and return to Europe.

The rest of Europe would just LOVE that, R60! What a brain trust there is on this thread.

[quote] And the reason there has been turbulence in the Middle East is Russia

R78 Uh, no. The reason there is constant strife/warfare in the "Middle East" is Islam. It's also the reason there is constant strife in Muslim countries. Constantly looking for weakness in the reigning power, which is to be challenged and overthrown. That strife has been on-going since the follwers of the Prophet rode out of Arabia in the 7th century to spead the Word. And it will continue until Islam is weakened or destroyed.

The Washington Post and Vox call anyone who isn't a marxist far right so lololol

Sure, hunty R86.

[quote] These right wingers are the most anti semitic,

R82 No more Jew-hating than left-wingers, progressives, liberals. Jew hatred is entrenched in US culture. It's the only hatred that exists in the entire population regardless of race, ethnicity, or political belief.

[quote]It's because Israel has adopted a lot of right wing traits that really turn Dems off. Also the Palestinians have correctly marketed their cause and rebranded it as a victim class fighting genocide and colonialism,

You left out the dominant factor. 2,000 years of socio-culturally entrenched Jew hatred. "Palestinians" hit the jackpot in declaring Jews their enemies. Every single nation understands the problem with those perfidious Jews. If it were any other nation besides Jews, no one would give a flying fuck about "Palestinians".

[quote]If it were any other nation besides Jews, no one would give a flying fuck about "Palestinians".

This 100X!!!

Notice how 'progressives' don't care about any other regional conflicts except this one. Wonder why?

(not to mention giving a free pass to all the Muslims societies---including PALESTININANS--that murder gays and oppress women. how "progressive!"

R86 throws words like "marxist" around as if he knows what they mean. I read the Washington Post, I read Vox, I read my local news paper, and I do not watch Fox. I even read Politico, The Hill, and a few others. I'm not a Marxist, but I am a Progressive, which is a bit more than the historic definition of a Liberal. In fact historically, the old definition of a classic Liberal would tend toward a more moderate position today. We have been dealing with Extremists on the Right ascendant for a few years now so people tend to do a lot of name calling and finger pointing and "both sides" bullshit when that is simply not the case and it is extremely inaccurate to portray Progressives as "marxists" or "Blue Trumpers."

As a pragmatic Progressive I tend to be inclusive, I support Biden, I support public education, Medicare, Social Security, saving the Environment , Gun Safety, not banning books, not going into people's bedrooms telling them who to fuck and how to fuck and intruding on Reproductive freedom., or determining how and when to deal with issues of human sexuality. I think as Americans we are poorly informed and easily manipulated and we rarely ever do our homework to be better informed. The Right, began decades ago, to include in our public discourse code words and signalling about "socially conservative" voters as if being "socially conservative" was OK. Things that were once said behind closed doors, were brought out in public, by softening language to make discrimination possible. Women, POC, Gays, etc. have had to fight hard to be included in the public discussions over governmental policies, and the old white men are terrified of losing control of access to $$$$ and power. Fuck them.

R89 as I said earlier, it's about Geography...and about investment.

[quote] Transjordan (now Jordan) was also created out of British Mandate Palestine.

Uh, not quite. Britain gifted over half of Mandated Palestine to the Hashemi clan for their help in ridding the hijaz of the Ottomans and because the Hashemis had been kicked out of the hijaz by the stronger Saud clan. That gift became the Emirate of Transjordan in 1921 and Jordan in 1946.

One can only wonder how different the region would be today if the Brits had not made a present of land that was not theirs to gift.

History is important. You know a lot of shit gets fucked up because of wars...and the peace treaties that come after. The victors divide the spoils of war drawing lines here and there and ignoring certain realities so they can accommodate allies or interest groups or strategic interests of their own. WW II brought on a lot of regional conflicts, the most familiar one (to me) being Vietnam. And if you want to understand what happened go back to how the French were defeated at Dien Ben Phu and Eisenhower got ensnared. Same thing happened in South East Asia, happened in Europe, and in the MIddle East.

R93 here, and of course the Cold War traces its beginnings to the lines that were drawn and the regional conflicts that were spawned.

I don't think demotrats really are for the palestinians. It's simply that Israeli's government is too extreme to really support them

[quote] I think as Americans we are poorly informed and easily manipulated and we rarely ever do our homework to be better informed.

R90 And being better informed is doing what? Exactly? Because media like the Washington Post, the Vox and your local newspaper are the primary reason Americans are "poorly informed and easily manipulated".

R96 reads the NYPost and Daily Mail cover to cover.

[quote]Women, POC, Gays, etc.

I love how you left out “trans” here. You didn’t want to but that would expose you. Nothing worse than a cowardly “progressive”.

Actually trans must have been “etc”.

The Israeli gov has gone right wing batshit crazy.

[quote] I love how you left out “trans” here. You didn’t want to but that would expose you. Nothing worse than a cowardly “progressive”.

Well, you are worse than one.

I’m no progressive. Not at all.

[quote] One can only wonder how different the region would be today if the Brits had not made a present of land that was not theirs to gift.

The British does divide and conquer the best. It also left India and Pakistan a horrid mess of rivals.

[quote] If it were any other nation besides Jews, no one would give a flying fuck about "Palestinians".

If American politicians are going to bend over backwards for an country and send it billions every year, what it does to its people becomes amplified.

[quote] Notice how 'progressives' don't care about any other regional conflicts except this one. Wonder why?

Why don't conservatives care about democracy?

I've been to Israel and it's a great country. Tel Aviv is a very modern, sophisticated city. I got TONS of hot Israeli cock while I was there. They LOVE fair, blue-eyed Christian boys!

[quote] You left out the dominant factor. 2,000 years of socio-culturally entrenched Jew hatred. "Palestinians" hit the jackpot in declaring Jews their enemies. Every single nation understands the problem with those perfidious Jews. If it were any other nation besides Jews, no one would give a flying fuck about "Palestinians".

Well, it's sort of easy when Israel trumpets itself as a liberal democracy and the only saving grace in the Middle East, but pretends it doesn't totally control the Palestinians but works to suppress them

[quote]I've been to Israel and it's a great country. Tel Aviv is a very modern, sophisticated city. I got TONS of hot Israeli cock while I was there. They LOVE fair, blue-eyed Christian boys!

If you would have went to Palestine, you would have been strung up by a crane. Something the hard left here would like to see.

Historically, it was the Republicans who were always distrustful of Israel. The GOP's Christian backers hated Jews and thus Israel. And then Israel made a strong effort to win over evangelicals.

And now all of sudden, the GOP is a big fan of Israel.

The irony is the Evangelicals love Israel because they think it's the End of Days and Jesus will show up in Israel all of a sudden. What they don't say out loud is they fully expect Jesus to vanquish all the Jews there.

Dammit. There go the Dems again and their belief that people shouldn't be repressed in an Apartheid state.

This is less because of some big enlightenment or ignorance (depending on where you stand), but because Israel is becoming more mask-off terrible to people unless you insist on devotion to them (and most people are casual enough observers that they don't do that), and globally people are becoming more exposed to Muslims, whether in media or in-person, so they feel encouraged to attempt to view the conflict with more nuance (in the sense that Palestinians are people, not necessarily that leadership is correct or culture is great).

This is no shift towards the Democrats going Death to Israel nor exalting radical resistance and ideology. They're just seeing, as in video and audio, more Palestinians suffer in ways that numbers on a page or screen would have been unable to affect them, and an Israeli government that is opportunistic to nearly the max, or at least appearing like a more obvious GOP analogue. Generally, obviously, Americans support the existence of Israel, and some kind of protection of it.

Maybe if Bibi didn't act like a fascist and have a fascist right wing government, he's get more Dem support. Just a thought

R98, I thought I was covering "trans" when I said, " or determining how and when to deal with issues of human sexuality. " But of course I amoutraged and what is going on in red st ates as Republicans criminalize sexual identity and deprive young people of medication, etc.etc.etc. I am disgusted by it .

R7- fuck u

And fuck you, too, R114.

[quote][R98], I thought I was covering "trans" when I said, " or determining how and when to deal with issues of human sexuality. "

I won’t derail this thread, but “trans” has nothing to do with sexuality, unless of course when the medical community, parents, the hard left (and some on the right) use it as a way to cure homosexuality. Back to the topic of this thread.

So why exactly do the Republicans unwaveringly support Israel but not give a crap about Palestinians?

My guess is it has to do with who gives them bigger contributions.

[quote] I won’t derail this thread, but “trans” has nothing to do with sexuality, unless of course when the medical community, parents, the hard left (and some on the right) use it as a way to cure homosexuality. Back to the topic of this thread.

BWAHHHHAHHHAHHHAHHHHHA

R115- fuck u jihadi cunt

[quote] Much of what is now Oklahoma was considered Indian Territory from the 1830s. The tribes in the area attempted to join the union as the native State of Sequoyah in 1905 as a means of retaining control of their lands, but this was unsuccessful and the lands were merged into Oklahoma with the Enabling Act of 1906. This act had been taken to disestablish the reservation in order for the foundation of the state to proceed. In July 2020, the Supreme Court ruled in McGirt v. Oklahoma that the eastern area- about half of the modern state- never lost its status as a native reservation. [bold]This includes the city of Tulsa.[/bold] The area includes lands of the Chickasaw, Choctaw, Cherokee, Muscogee and Seminole.[71] The ruling is based on an 1832 treaty, which the court ruled was still in force, adding that "Because Congress has not said otherwise, we hold the government to its word."[72]

What is the goal for Democrats with this? Who are they trying to impress?

Who was the rabid anti-Israelite professor who basically said that the staff of Charlie Hebdo had it coming and that he had no sympathy for them?

This will, of course, cost the Democrats votes from the Jewish population, who until recently have been so overwhelmingly liberal voters.

Democrats can’t afford to lose any votes. Not one.

SSo the Right Wing Extremist trolls think they have a real wedge piece to propagandize with. Go fuck yourselves. I support Israel. I do not support fascist extremist assholes like Netanyahu.

R27- i hv met muslim people who r not religious nuts n seems to respect others, but almost all of them r downright nuts who quote their terrorists book to justify all their violent behaviours. i got banned from the twitter for saying no one has the right to kill another person expect themselves, when they said the stoning of gays is their culture n non-muslims should stay out of them

One iota of sympathy with the shift toward some small allegiance for the Palestinians and what they have suffered at the hands of the Israeli government and it's too much for some here--even if it means defending or looking the other way at the alliance that crook Netanyahu has made with the most extreme right-wing factions of Jewry in Israel. And if we 're talking about homophobia, if any of the right-wing apologists here think that these extreme right-wing factions are anything other than virulent homophobes, you're really not to be taken seriously. These extremists have said as much--proudly.

And fuck you, gash R119.

There--I hope that settles that.

Thank you R127!!!

[quote]Go fuck yourselves.

Talk about wedge.

There are around 1.15 million Native Americans who live on reservations and other native lands and are governed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Many of these reservations have a degree of sovereignty and oversight is provided by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, an actual government agency.

Conditions on reservations are pretty awful with high rates of poverty and alcoholism.

Imagine, if you will, that the descendants of enslaved people lived on reservations in the South where they were under the oversight of the Bureau of Negro Affairs.

But let's talk shit about how Israel treats the Palestinians.

[quote] But let's talk shit about how Israel treats the Palestinians.

Yeah, let's--because we're talking about Israel. Thats the topic, not whataboutism.

And you're welcome, R129.

In 2023 this US Government agency still has questions in its FAQ like

"Are American Indians citizens?"

"Do American Indians have the right to vote?"

"Do American Indians have the right to hold public office:"

"Can American Indians serve in the armed forces?"

But talk more shit about how Israel treats the Palestinians

Nice try R132 - but Americans can't talk shit about Israel when they abuse their own people and pretend it's not happening

[quote] But talk more shit about how Israel treats the Palestinians

Again, R133, that's the topic of the thread.

Bullshit, R134.

And Israel IS the topic of this thread.

R119- fuck u taliban cunt. Never settle till ur violent reign of terror keeps getting defended as ur culture

R136 is the Thread Monitor

They get to decide what can be discussed here

When someone points out that they are a hypocrite-- It's Not The Topic Of The Thread

We will talk about what we want o talk about Native American Persecutor

No, R138--when someone like you says, "WHAT ABOUT..." when it has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand, I call bullshit. Sorry if you can't handle that.

Oklahoma was Indian territory until 1889 when the US opened it up to white settlers.

Somehow the R136's of the world are not crying about people in their own country to "still have the keys to the houses their grandparents lived in"

I guess there is some sort of statute of limitations on these things

After 100 years you are allowed to kick people off their land forever.

In that case the Palis better hurry up- only 25 years to go

Here's the thing Zionists will never understand and it's something I've said over the years: Israel's threat is from within and among their own. The former Soviets and the settlers are among the most virulently racist and hateful people you will ever encounter. What you're seeing now is karma for them. The American public has been lied to by MSM and the government over decades. Social media is Israel's enemy because it can no longer hide what it does every single day and people see it as the media ignores it and only chooses to "weep" when Israel is "attacked"...always ignoring the hell unleashed by them prior to the retaliation.

I'm sure I don't have to wonder that if Russia had done this to Ukrainian artists over the years, the media would cover it. I don't know how you justify it and call yourself a good person:

For R136

For R136

Norman Finklestein

R122

[quote] Who was the rabid anti-Israelite professor who basically said that the staff of Charlie Hebdo had it coming and that he had no sympathy for them?

So why should we hate rabid anti-Israelis and be fine with rabid anti-Palestinians

[quote] Who was the rabid anti-Israelite professor

Anti-Israelite?? Are you writing from ancient times?

The thing racists like R141 never seem to get is that whey they say "Zionists" instead of "Jews" they're not fooling anyone.

[quote] Here's the thing Zionists will never understand and it's something I've said over the years: Israel's threat is from within and among their own.

I hope theyre seeing it now. Palestinians aren't threating Israel's judicial system; Bibi and the right wing Israelis are

Israel is quickly heading towards fascism and away from Democracy. The world sees it.

LOL Norman Finkelstein.

The Clarence Thomas of Jews.

If you persist with the rabids you're gonna need shots.

Israel is quickly going to become a right-wing fascist state, and I pity all the gay people there who thought they were immune from right-wing theocrats like the ones Netanyahu is aigning himself with. But we'll see that unfold soon enough.

If only someone in Israel would raise their voice to Netanyahu....

Actually ugly Anscher, Finkelstein’s parents were death camp survivors and didn’t want to see their own people don the black uniform that had some so close to murdering them.

Infinitely better than Judeo-fascist swine.

Less ugly, too!

Those "Zionists" are all so quiet and complacent. Probably too busy shining their space lasers that I don't believe in to protest

Of course they are, R154. But they're being bulldozed by the extreme right-wing so many mutants here (unless they're merely trolls) think are so wonderful.

[quote] Israel is quickly going to become a right-wing fascist state,

Israel has always been one. All the scapegoating of likkud is nonsense. As if Labour is any better. Left wing, right wing, Israel has been a racist, fascist state from day 1.

R155, hmmm still doesn’t explain his endorsement of Holocaust denying “scholars” as well as his arguing that Holocaust denial should be taught in university

R153- that's why the muslims bring openly homophobic in western countries should be called out, so those gay men have some place to run away to when the isreal start killing gays again

You seem so giddy, R153.

Goodness, gracious me! The Netanyahu trolls are overrunning the DL!

Maybe Native Americans could use some championing.

Can someone please provide specific examples of the atrocities of the Israeli government perpetrated in the last 10 years?

R164 US media only cover Israel when Israelis get killed. All the atrocities against Palestinians get ignored by the US media to please their corporate overlords. Watch the BBC. Even CNN Int'l. They cover both sides.

Ok. I’ll watch the BBC when I can, but can I get some specific examples here maybe? Obviously if their actions are so atrocious, it can’t be difficult to think of a few

I've never understood why the US has to pay trillions to Israel. We weren't responsible for the Holocaust, we fought against the Nazis. If we're going to fund for eternity people who were the objects of a genocide, why aren't we giving trillions to Armenia? To Rwanda?

[quote]can I get some specific examples here maybe?

You will be waiting forever.

R167 or Ukraine?

.......

R165, Your point? American media are Right-Wing Republican-owned.

Thank you to the few in this thread who seem to have an actual understanding of the history and complexity of the conflict, and who aren't just taking knee-jerk positions and repeating buzzwords and talking points based on which political team they belong to.

I stopped discussing this issue online many years ago, because of the ignorance of people who know nothing about it, yet feel compelled to spout off as if they were experts...kind of like AOC in this clip.

R172 that clip could be anyone vehemently defending “Palestine” these days. Even as a neutral person, I can’t get anyone to give concrete, verifiable reasons or explanations of why we should all be anti Israel.

R173 why would we be pro-Israel? Because we're religious fanatics? Only reason I can think of. Every Israeli citizen could happily and safely live in the US, the UK, Canada, etc. I'm an atheist and see no more reason to support a theocracy like Israel than any other theocracy - Muslim, Christian, whatever.

R174 you don’t have to be pro-Israel. I’m asking why people are so vehemently anti-Israel. Why would a gay man want to live in Baghdad as opposed to Tel Aviv, for example? What is the opposition to Israel offering that is so much more righteous?

As I understand it, I don't see the criticism and opposition to Netanyahu as being "Anti Israel." I'm anti fascist, anti extremists. And seeing an unscrupulous person like Netanyahu get in bed with them and is disgusting.

Israel is full of Trump lovers.

The Palestinians danced in the streets on 9/11.

A pox on both their houses.

[Quote] I've never understood why the US has to pay trillions to Israel.

The Benjamins. Yes there is an Israeli lobby and it donates strategically

[Quote] The Palestinians danced in the streets on 9/11.

That was bullshit. The TV station admitted it

[Quote] Israel is full of Trump lovers.

You think they’d know what Fascism is

[Quote] Thank you to the few in this thread who seem to have an actual understanding of the history and complexity of the conflict, and who aren't just taking knee-jerk positions and repeating buzzwords and talking points based on which political team they belong to.

We know it’s complex. The basics are simple, however. A country can’t call itself a liberal democracy when it’s prevented a large part of its population from voting and living freely

[Quote] Why would a gay man want to live in Baghdad as opposed to Tel Aviv, for example?

Pretty much the only place a gay man can live openly in Israel is Tel Aviv. People pretend all of Israel just loves gays. They dont

[Quote] Why would a gay man want to live in Baghdad as opposed to Tel Aviv, for example?

Why can’t a gay man from the West Bank live in Tel Aviv?

R172, I don't know where you stand, but I have read much on the history. I will make only one comment, lest I rant interminably.

The Black September organization provided the perpetrators who murdered the 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics.

If one does not know the origin of the Black September group, one does not know enough about the "Palestinians."

[quote] We know it’s complex. The basics are simple, however. A country can’t call itself a liberal democracy when it’s prevented a large part of its population from voting and living freely.

But Palestinians aren't "its population". They are citizens of the State of Palestine. They are free to vote in Palestinian elections, which haven't occurred on anything but the local level since 2006.

You think they should be allowed to vote in both Palestinian and Israeli elections? Do you want the same right for Israelis, that they be allowed to vote in Palestinian elections?

R179, you're wrong.

Palestinians in the West Bank celebrating the 9/11 attacks

Anti Semitism nearly destroyed the Labor party in the UK. I see it doing the same here.

Why don't the Jews just make peace with the Palestinians and be done with it?

They seem like such reasonable people, it should be easy!

^ It’s why I would never vote for any hard left or right person, and tragically most gay men are hard left, so I will most likely never vote for a gay person for president (or any elected office) in my lifetime. I don’t trust them.

This situation will never be resolved.

Religion is why. Responsible for most of the worst atrocities, greed, corruption, misinformation and violence - in human history. Very prevalent and destructive over the past two thousand years in particular.

There's no other way to say it.

[quote] most gay men are hard left

No they arent. Don't judge by what you see on Datalounge.

To all of you who ask What Did Israel do to Palestinians? Bulldoze their homes to make settlements,, bomb their schools, kill their children, lock them down with a wall and a gate, spit on their very existence. Israel has become a racist right wing super power. Israel may allow gay rights, but it sucks at human rights, When I think of Jews, I think of love, compassion, intelligence, and life itself, ancient and formidable. When I think of Israel, I think of police, death, and weapons. A casket being carried through the ancient alleyways.

[quote]But Palestinians aren't "its population".

It's the one thing Israelis and Palestinians agree on.

R181 What? All citizens of Israel can vote and live freely including Arabs. There are Arabs in the Knesset.

Palestinians have their own elections and representatives.

How many Jews live and serve in government positions in Egypt? Saudi Arabia? None because Jews were ethnically cleansed from multiple Muslim countries.

The ignorance here is astounding.

[quote] The Israeli Government Goes Extreme Right

"The Atlantic" longs for the days of Trotsky

Israel has become a Theocracy. Many intellectuals have advised them of the dangers of Theocracy. It is very sad.

I wish you were correct, R192, and maybe at one point you were, but not anymore.

In the immediate postwar era, Democrats were overwhelmingly sympathetic to Israel.

That reflected the way most Americans rightly saw the tiny nation, as a plucky democracy battling for its life against the Arab and Muslim worlds that sought its destruction. Republicans were split with many either indifferent or openly hostile.

That changed as the Republicans elected the ardently pro-Israel Ronald Reagan and, by the 1990s, the GOP had become overwhelmingly pro-Israel.

They understood it was the sole democracy in the Middle East and shared common values with Americans.

If anything, that support has only grown with Gallup showing that Republicans now back it by a staggering 78-11% margin.

Gallup claims it might be a reflection of the “high number of Palestinians killed” in the conflict — without mentioning that those figures are largely composed of slain terrorists.

But they’re not wrong to see it as connected to the “waning religiosity” of most Americans since the remaining people of faith — who are more likely to be Republicans — are strong supporters of Zionism.

They’re missing the real answer: the rise of the intersectional left that falsely analogizes the Palestinian war on Israel to the struggle for civil rights in the United States and depicts the Jewish state as an expression of “white privilege” and an oppressor of Palestinian “people of color.”

Thanks to the influence of the ideology to which even President Joe Biden bends his knee, the Democrats have reached a tipping point on Israel from which there may be no road back.

[quote][R173] why would we be pro-Israel? Because we're religious fanatics? Only reason I can think of. Every Israeli citizen could happily and safely live in the US, the UK, Canada, etc. I'm an atheist and see no more reason to support a theocracy like Israel than any other theocracy - Muslim, Christian, whatever.

Jews in the middle east aren't hated because of their faith, they're hated because they're Jews.

Jews have lived in the region for 1000s of years, a lot longer than white Europeans have lived in the US and Canada.

Why are you calling for the displacement of an entire ethnic and cultural people?

Not this Democrat! I blame Gen Z for the shift. They're idiots.

Israel > Palestine

Jews > Muslims

USA > everyone else

moniter every religious books where guys r being excused for their horrible behaviours. Guys who hear voices inside their heads belongs in the mental institutions

R199 Fuck Rupert Murdoch's NYPost!

I don’t think we should like any of the Middle East.

R189 that comes as no surprise at all to me

Hitler's Mein Kampf is a long standing best seller in Palestine. They love Hitler and the Nazis there

R200. Jews have lived all over the world for 1000s of years.

They have only reclaimed Israel in the last 100 years. The Romans kicked out the Israelites and their God out over 2000 years ago.

But not everyone was or is a fan of Zionism and the creation of the Jewish state.

if you want to find cooperative peace organizations, you can find them in Israel.

From children music programs and street art to animals. . (there is one, just one, animal shelter in Palestine that relies heavily on Israeli support... though she is westernized. . . literally caught between the two with an improbable mission. I don't recommend you look up what happened to the zoos or the laugh about PA history museums.)

R208. I don't think it's the music programs for kids or the street art that people have a problem with.

It's the growing dictatorship under Netanyahu, the settlements, and the increasingly poor prospects for the Palestinians or any possible two-state solution, that rubs people the wrong way.

R206

Quote from Charles Krauthammer - The Weekly Standard, May 11, 1998

"Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store."

Charles Krauthammer ignores the Diaspora?

This Britannica article contains important facts on the "2-State Solution" and its history of negotiations. One thing to understand is that the Arab nations and Palestinian* groups such as Hamas for the longest time refused to recognize the State of Israel, gave children schoolbooks with area maps omitting Israel, and vowed to "push Israel into the sea." Nice way to begin negotiations.

*Technically, Israelis are also Palestinians, just as Brazilians are Americans.

I hate when polls try and cast the opinion of an entire party/group on only a few hundred people. There are 40 million registered Democrats, so this doesn't even represent a percentage of that.

R212. That's nice.

I suppose some people might construe that as a reason to give up on a two-State solution altogether.

And those people would be wrong. The right road isn't always the easy one.

r213 Try saying that to WaPo, Vox or NYT.

Just for fun, locate politically black/brown, Linda Sarsour, Malia Bouattia. Hatem Bazian

or every student activist group which hijacked "pink washing" (once about corporations that sponsor Pride but support anti-lgbt initiatives) and made it solely about Israel to the point now it's what the majority identifies it as...

or say that chick's thesis who decided because she couldn't find accounts of sexual assaults of palestinian women by the idf, determined that rape was natural, so it had to be because they were racists then.

One can never defeat those that will shellout 49.95 for a che shirt - the official uniform of anti-capitalists...

one never finds any pro-palestinian group, only antisemitism. I would say antiisrael but given how little they know of Israel and that it always, always, always ventures into statements comparable to the far right's position. What else can you call it? Besides they never see themselves as they truly are:

^ unsurprisingly, these grups are also pro-china, pro-iran, pro-russia, pro-cuba, pro-venezuela, pro-north korea.... or at least, anti-west.

they will never boycott (bds) israeli tech because they believe that said tech is the ip of the oppressed not it's oppressors - same with the other americans that hate the U.S's investments in Israel, they will not forego usage of israeli technology and derived technologies. . . because muh taxes.

[Quote] Palestinians have their own elections and representatives.

Sure, but Palestine is complete and utterly controlled by Israel. That’s the problem. Israel is pretending Palestine isn’t a colony and isn’t extending its rights to the colony.

What exactly does Israel offer the US that the IS beds over backward to accept whatever crap Israel does? Why does Israel deserve $4 billion each year?

Democrats' sympathies shift to Palestinians as Israel, under Netanyahu, keeps building settlements, whips up violence against the Arabs of the West Bank, and drops any pretense of free government. It used to be "We support the only democracy in the Middle East, and they're moving toward a two-state solution. Palestinians support terrorism." Now we're supposed to keep giving moral support and billions of dollars to an authoritarian theocracy so that it can expand authoritarian theocracy? What choice is there? My sympathies are with both the Palestinians being dispossessed and the liberal Israeli Jews being deprived of the free society they had.

Bibi’s right wing government detests gays and some members have specifically said they will roll back gay rights.

It’s nice that Bibi has so far resisted them but it can’t last long if Bibi wants to keep power.

And I’m supposed to support that bull shit??

I don't remember anyone calling for the United States to cease existence because it elected Trump.

I don't see that poll asking specifically about "Israel's right to exist," R221. It's asking which side gets your sympathy in this conflict, and that's not necessarily a zero-sum game—sympathy with Israel doesn't necessarily mean you're opposed to a Palestinian state, either.

If you look at that poll, notice that Indepenents are not too far behind Democrats in losing support for Israel—only Republicans are holding steady (a lot of Republican support for Israel is from Protestant fundamentalists). What's more fundamental than the party gap is the generation gap, with those under 44 or 45 seeing a big dropoff in support for Israel. In other words, the results track with support for democracy, women's rights, gay rights, freedom of religion, etc.—all of which Netanyahu's Israeli government and American Republicans have rejected.

Actually, the more I look at that poll, it's not about Democrats, it's yet another story about Republicans going in one direction while Democrats and Independents go in another. And it's about Republicans losing voters under 45.

German tourists in Israel attacked by the noble Palestinians.

German tourists visiting Israel were lightly injured on Saturday when they were attacked by Nablus residents for entering the Palestinian city with an Israeli vehicle registration plate.

Photos and videos taken at the scene show the tourists were driving in a Tel Aviv share car that featured an Israeli flag on its rear end.

The two tourists managed to escape the crowd and were eventually escorted back to Israel by security forces, where they will be given medical treatment for their injuries.

German Ambassador to Israel Steffan Seibert condemned the attack on the two German tourists, stating that "a mob attacking tourists because they don‘t like their license plate is disgusting and cowardly."

I'm not sure what your sarcasm is supposed to accomplish, R224. Are you suggesting that anyone who condemns this attack by Palestinians on tourists should also support the Israeli government's anti-democratic turn and oppose a two-state solution?

[quote] Sure, but Palestine is complete and utterly controlled by Israel. That’s the problem. Israel is pretending Palestine isn’t a colony and isn’t extending its rights to the colony.

Take a look at this sign that is posted on roads that lead to Arab villages throughout Area A of the West Bank. Then tell us again how Palestine is "completely and utterly controlled by Israel".

[quote] What exactly does Israel offer the US that the US bends over backward to accept whatever crap Israel does? Why does Israel deserve $4 billion each year?

The US aid to Israel is almost exclusively military aid. They don't need humanitarian aid or economic aid at this point in time.

It's akin to us giving them gift cards that they use to buy our military equipment and technology. Thus, the almighty military-industrial complex gets fed, jobs are created and saved, and our economy is boosted.

I've seen a lot of comments on here by people who seem to believe that Israel would not survive without this aid. A lot of Israelis don't believe this to be the case, and don't want the aid. Others think they don't need it, but are happy to take it, as it makes their lives easier. I tend to believe that they would be OK without it (though I'm no expert in this regard, and I could be wrong), but our political situation in the US ensures that the aid will keep flowing no matter what, whether they really need it or not.

We also give aid to the Palestinians, BTW. Not nearly as much (about $250 million in 2021), but the only thing we get in return is a minimal amount of goodwill (VERY minimal...see the videos where they dance in the streets after the 9/11 attacks), and some diplomatic leverage. Some of it gets goes to enriching their corrupt leadership. Some of it goes to funding UNRWA, the extremely corrupt UN organization tasked with helping Palestinians (they run schools that encourage Palestinian children to hate and kill Jews, and to aspire to become martyrs. UNRWA schools in Gaza have also been found to be used as storage facilities for the rockets Hamas shoots into Israel.) Some of it goes to the PA's "pay-to-slay" policy, which pays Palestinians (or their families, if they die) large sums of money if they manage to kill innocent Jews in terror attacks. In other words, the money we send the Palestinians presumably does some good, but it also helps fund policies that ensure the conflict will continue for generations to come.

[quote] (they run schools that encourage Palestinian children to hate and kill Jews, and to aspire to become martyrs.

The indoctrinated Palestinian kids don't have a chance

Oh bitch please at r226. Native American Reservations are also, you know, reserved for Native Americans, but everybody knows who is really in charge of the whole damn land mass when push comes to shove. That shit isn't fooling anybody.

On a global scale Democrats philosophies have always been consistent. Democrats are pro democracy. When Trump's butt buddy Bibi became a democracy hating theocrat, the Democrats shifted to the Palestinians If Bibi succeeds in diminishing the Israeli courts, he will be the world's first Jewish autocrat since Biblical times. Hey, Evangelical Traitors, is Bibi the ANTICHRIST?

R226 Name one Reservation where it's illegal for white Americans to enter, and where they are literally at risk of being killed if they do. I'll wait.

Yup, it's less and less are you "pro-Israel" and more are you pro fanatical settlers? That is what is becoming the actual question.

R231, you love false equivalencies.

Any white man who enters an Indian casino is just asking to be scalped

You honestly don't believe the Israeli Army could enter any Palestinian "territory" whenever the fuck it felt like it r231? Really? Stop lying about shit you know you're lying about and just accept the reality that Israel is still very much in charge and any Palestinian "independence" is entirely theoretical.

Or better yet, ignore all that, and tell us if you think Netanyahu is a problem for Israelis' rights or not.

I never claimed that the West Bank wasn't under Israeli occupation. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But if the territory were "completely and utterly controlled" by Israel, as was claimed by the poster upthread, Israeli citizens would be allowed to come and go as they please.

And yes, obviously Bibi presents a real problem for Israel, as the current massive demonstrations would indicate.

I would've agreed with this until recently. I've seen tons of shady behavior by Israelis over the years so it's easy to see why people have more sympathy with Palestinians.

However, I recently befriended some Palestinians running a smoke shop nearby my apartment building and the bad behavior I've witnessed from these two are making me start to think that Israelis are a more honest/upright people in comparison if you can believe that.

These Palestinians lie to just about everybody. Look up 'Palestinians lie' on google search and see the large number of search results. Former Israeli PM Ehud Barak is quoted as saying that Palestinians lie so freely and easily they don't even consider it lying. He said lie detectors wouldn't work on these people because they suffer no cognitive dissonance from telling lies and the truth.

And the Islam component adds yet another level to their bullshit. One of these two Palestinians cheats shamelessly on his wife with Latina hoes however when Ramadan rolls around he is adamant he can't and wont have outside sex during that period because of the edicts of his religion. He's also expressed to me how fortunate he feels he is to have been born into a Muslim family because of all the wonderful things this beautiful religion has brought him.

The other Palestinian guy is just as bad. He's borrowed money from me in the past and then later refused to even pay it back even after making a big show to me about how reliable and honest he is. I also suspect he might be a pill addict though he denies it. He's proud to support his deadbeat family because family is so important to Muslims. His mother was deported back to the West Bank from the US approx 12 years ago and was just recently allowed back in. His father is disabled with a bum leg but gets no disability at present because of 'immigration issues'. Dad is also a gambling addict. Wife gives him lottery slips to fill out at home which she takes to the store to bet $20 a day on the lottery for him to try and keep his gambling under control. When I asked this guy if he might convince his father to attend a Gamblers Anonymous meeting or to start therapy he thought I was crazy because Muslims don't do that sorta stuff.

[quote]On a global scale Democrats philosophies have always been consistent. Democrats are pro democracy. When Trump's butt buddy Bibi became a democracy hating theocrat, the Democrats shifted to the Palestinians

And the Palestinians are the pro-democracy side? Sure.

R238. They may not be pro-democracy but they have the chance to go in the right direction.

Israel is going firmly in the wrong direction in terms of both democratic norms and human rights.

r238, I don't know, but it may be time for us to reevaluate our relationship with both of them.

R239 They may not be pro-democracy but they have the chance to go in the right direction.

With all due respect, they have zero chance to go in the right direction.

R241. Well that's pretty dehumanizing. Claiming an entire nation/peoples are incapable of achieving democratic norms and respecting human rights may not be the hill you want to die on.

I knew it was only a matter of time before Netanyahu attempted an authoritarian power grab. Disregarding basic humans rights has corrosive effect on democracy. I see a clear line from Netanyahu refusing to stop West Bank settlements to Netanyahu's corruption to Netanyahu attempting to neuter the supreme court. When I read about the massive protests in the news I can't help but think "well what the fuck did you think was going to happen". Not that I'm letting the US off the hook. Too many people here are indifferent towards the Palestinians.

Okay, if R237 is allowed to generalize from anecdotal evidence, I'll do the same: I have various Palestinian friends from both work and social relationships, all of whom are decent, law-abiding people I've trusted over the years as much as I trust my friends of other nationalities. They have professional jobs and are successful in them. Their families still in Palestine, whom they visit, are doing the best they can under constant harassment by the Israel military, including sound bombing their neighborhoods to get them to sell to Jewish Israelis—and yet to all appearances they haven't taken up terrorism, just as most Northern Irish Catholics weren't running around planting bombs in the London train station garbage cans.

Yes, R240, let's reevaluate both the pittance we give the still largely powerless Palestinian government and the massive funding (and other privileges) we still provide to an Israeli government that has now adopted the rigid right-wing policies and corruption of an Erdoğan, Orbán, Trump, and the rest.

Who are the Palestinian government R244?

R245, the Palestinian Authority is the Palestinian government. Since 2018-19 it receives US aid only very indirectly, basically through funds to the UN Relief and Works Agency and to the Palestinian private sector.

The Palestinian Authority is a corrupt terrorist organization. We should give MORE money to them?

[quote]They may not be pro-democracy but they have the chance to go in the right direction.

This is like saying the Taliban has the chance to go in the right direction. It will never happen.

R247, are you replying to me? Where did I say we should give more money to the Palestinian Authority, as opposed to reducing the amount of money we give to the increasingly authoritarian and illiberal Israeli government?

Oh, I have a bell for a heretofore unmentioned cat. Two bells and two cats, actually.

The smaller 🔔: Has no-one respect anymore for the historically accepted "To the victor go the spoils"? Go to war against Israel and lose, be prepared to give up the territory she just conquered (the 6-Day War was strike before struck). Tradition! 🎶

The other 🔔🐈: Does no-one wonder why no Arab nation is willing to offer a portion of their land, or even just a welcome mat, to the Palestinians, their veritable brethren? History proved that Europe was hostile to Jews, who thus for literal survival needed their own country. Surely it cannot be argued that the Middle East is similarly hostile to the Palestinians?

I'm being sarcastic with that last query. AGAIN, see the origin of the BLACK SEPTEMBER movement. Here, I'll help: