How Suburbs Destroyed America

Suburban Nation: The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream.

Read it long ago and one thing I remember was the description of a typical 2nd? 3rd? gen immigrant family post WWII , moving out of the cramped city to the fresh air of a suburban development (lawns! driveways! spaaaace!) but zoning laws quickly enforced “residential only” and no corner stores meant needing a car to run the simplest of errands. Kids were stuck in a maze of identical houses with nowhere else to go within walking distance and nothing else to do so they hung out in the basement rec rooms and, being bored, got into all kinds of trouble.

That video. A slam dunk.

Spot on.

We need more suburbs, did COVID teach us anything? NYC the epicenter of COVID, tuberculosis, and monkey pox, does anyone remember? Why do people want to live like rats and Europeans?

Covid? I thought you people don't "believe" in covid.

Watch the presentation. He comes right out and exposes suburbia as the grifters and parasites you are.

I watched a Peter Zeihan video and he points out that the existence of suburbs is why the U.S. population is relatively stable compared to many other countries.

Countries like China where people went from living on a farm to living in a condo in a city in one generation is part of the reason why their population is collapsing so quickly. People living in urban apartments have less kids than those living in suburban dwellings.

Very good point, r7.

Fewer!

I think they’re great!

I'm a big defender of early suburbs, the late 19thC railroad suburbs and the early 20thC suburbs of the Olmsted Brothers and others, the 'close-in suburbs' a short drive or bike or bus ride away from the center of the city but set apart in a park-like setting often along a river or stream, with big Shaker Heights sorts of houses in various revival styles, wide boulevards, big lawns, big trees...

After WWII, however, it's a very different story as shown in the subject video. Whether the architecture got cheaper or more expensive as it rolled outward in subsequent waves, the quality of the developments got worse, the disconnection from any shared sense of community with the center of the city quite divorced. The land of zombies and strip malls and R4s:

[quote]We need more suburbs, did COVID teach us anything? NYC the epicenter of COVID, tuberculosis, and monkey pox.... Why do people want to live like rats and Europeans?

You mean European 'rats' who don't have to spend their days going to PetSmart for cat litter? and Costco to fill the basement with bulk items and shit they forgot you already owned? To the Staples and Wal-Marts and Krogers and Fresh Foods and the wholesale wine superstore and Bed, Bath, and Beyond, and Michael's, and greeting card shops, and Wendy's, and Red Lobster, and Cheesecake Factory, and Marshall's, and TJMaxx and all the r4est of that dizzying sprawl one parking lot at a time? And take it all home to you house that sits square in the middle of a big lot with a connected garage and your Ring™ video door bell? You're right, Europeans have no idea the high standard of luxury you are enjoying in your suburban home with Property Brothers' endorsed granite countertops and contrasting backsplash.

Poor Europeans, without a car six inches from their back door to hit the tarmac and buy all the things that they foolishly can buy on their way home from work or an errand, witngrocery stores everywhere and not one goddamned grocery store sitting in the middle of a parking lot (how inconvenient, how primitive.) Europeans who have a vet and a doctor and fast trains and clean buses that go everywhere, where you can walk in the middle of the streets and not get plowed down by a car, where people wanedr frm one shop or bar or restaurant to the next without need of a driver's license; where they live in nice apartments and fantastic, expensive houses in the center in return for being -- in the center, where things happen, where your friends want to come meet you, where you have endless choices without getting a car or a taxi, by just walking? Primitive!

He's right and it is interesting, but his horrific narration and accent make it impossible to listen to. And the embedded commercials... pass

R11 I hear you but so many Europeans dream of the "affluence" of suburban US life. I have some friends from London and Holland and they drool when they see the suburban lifestyle. My point is, your broad sweeping generalizations don't hold much water. Some people absolutely love what you look down your nose at. Be better.

Do you watch that walkability youtube guy? His latest videos about trucks and SUVs really got my blood boiling, I've found them to be a menace my whole life. I've always said you should have to prove you have shit to haul or something at the very least.

Fuck the cities. I like my pool and my space.

I don’t disagree with anything you say R11. I’ve always felt that way, even as a teenager in working class suburbia. I moved into Manhattan as soon as I could, and would never live anywhere that I can’t live my life on foot and public transit. My question is why am I such an outlier in America in how I think and what I want from my living situation. Suburbs, despite the backing of corporate America & the government, still appeal to more people than an urban lifestyle.

I feel this really goes almost immediately to the nature / nurture conundrum. I didn’t grow up in an urban environment and cities were at a low point in the late 70s both, in practical terms and in the public consciousness - but I couldn’t wait to move into one. Conversely all the rational arguments for the benefits (social, environmental, financial) of living in more dense / less car reliant way will never get my sister to leave her oversized McMansion

The older I get the more I believe we largely are the way we are, and think the way we do, because of some random combination of genes and hormone levels we get assigned at conception. which has nothing, and everything to do with how the suburbs destroyed this country.

[quote]People living in urban apartments have less kids

Oh, dear.

"Oh, dear."

I could care fewer!

Well I went off on quite a tangent. Back to the video, I wonder if a more European style suburb would be what most Americans consider their God given Right if that type of more mixed, denser development had been pushed by the govt right after the war. It may have been somewhat less profitable, but I’m not sure those making the zoning laws at the time could have foreseen that.

R13 European's like suburbs with shop's, bar's and good public transport. Why do you think everything in London now linked by Crossrail is now worth 3x its previous value?

Nobody wants to live in US style empty suburbs that don't even have sidewalks (pavements).

I doubt many Americans care too much about Europe. Might not even know where it is on a map. The US is the only country that matters, remember?

Many nights I fall asleep forgetting to lock my door. No infestation of rats. No roaches. Safe area. Clean. Yeah, it's really terrible.

I like the guy's accent but he is a fast talker which irritates me.

[quote]European's like suburbs with shop's, bar's and good public transport.

You're doing this on purpo'se.

At least a few posters in this thread have recognized that the suburban hell stereotype in the video is just that — a stereotype. There are many suburbs in America that already have all the things the video says are ultimate goals.

It’s mostly suburbs in the west and south that are those single family mazes with no small stores or other businesses.

[quote]My question is why am I such an outlier in America in how I think and what I want from my living situation. Suburbs, despite the backing of corporate America & the government, still appeal to more people than an urban lifestyle.

R16, I'd venture that U.S. suburbs offer affordability, safety or a sense of it, and a compromise of car-centric life that is comfortable for many Americans. Early depictions of the creep of Westward Expansion across what would become the U.S. usually show some version of a primitive small house in the middle of some large tract of land in the middle of wilderness -- but cleared wildness, if only to fell the trees and leave them where they fell until uses for firewood or fencing or an extension to the house. Some have made an almost genetic argument that this is the essence of American settlement patterns and by extension the American Dream: a house removed from civilization, surrounded by land, as far as feasible from neighbors. This is in some sense an American freedom of expansiveness, conquering distance and wildness, of individualism. Exurbs today often regulate land use by parcel size: a 5-acre plot, fairly impossible for one man to manage if he has the sort of job to pay for such an expanse, keeps out people who cannot afford it and means that you are (mostly) that American dream of not having to hear your neighbors' arguments, their screaming kids, their car doors slamming, the splash of their backyard pools.

You see the impulse here on DL where some Tasteful Friends thread will have a vast floor-through apartment on a.leqfybatreet of the Upper East Side. But it's not enough: posters start noting that "for that much money I want a limestone fronted townhouse..but a freestanding one, with no neighbors too close". In fucking Manhattan??

Americans are trigger quick to make that jump to rationalize the inconveniences and shortcomings of suburbs for the space, the separation from others, the distance to Dicks sporting goods to buy socks for the boys and then pick up lunch at Panda Express.

Americans except in a very few large cities haven't known the convenience of living in a proper mixed use city center where all things you need and want are within blocks away not miles, where you run into the grocery shop and bakery for five minutes and grab the fresh parsley and goat cheese and bread you need to fill out dinner, or to buy some wine for friends coming over, or to walk your dog two blocks to the neighborhood vet and have a coffee with neighbors you run into on the way back, or to have not driven a car for nine months -- or ever. Morever if they know some Lite version if this it's often in post-college, early career, dating days...things to be out aside as they get serious about life later. The house with more floors than they could afford rooms in a city apartment calls, the garage to park the expensive car, the good school districts...

The idea of living in some sort of luxury of convenience and choice never really took hold with Americans outside those very few huge U.S. cities, and Americans may know that their suburbs are uncool and dreary, but they find the cheap gloss of moving up and out to a 21st Century vestige of Westward Expansion an irresistible pull.

You left out the better schools in the suburbs. That's a big reason many people move to the 'burbs.

The car-centric life of suburbia is a feature, not a bug, for most of us who live here. We like driving everywhere. One reason we live in suburbia is that we can drive and park easily.

If that's not your thing, live in the city. I don't care. Just stop telling suburbanites (who outnumber city dwellers, especially when you discount the parts of many cities that are, in fact, really suburban) that we're wrong. There's no right or wrong. It's a matter of lifestyle choice, and Americans mostly choose the suburbs.

I lived in Park Slope for 5 years. I did the "parsley and goat cheese" trips - which were outnumbered by the schlepping of bags of groceries, dry cleaning, etc. in the cold and rain, by the way. In the end, it wasn't for me. But the funny thing is, most of the people I worked with who were native New Yorkers from the outer boroughs had cars. They didn't drive them to work in Manhattan, but they drove pretty much everywhere else, even though it was a pain in the ass.

“Better schools in suburbia “ is linked to the white flight of the 60s and a whole ‘nother topic. But also consider where the schools are built in the suburbs. Often built on the edge where there’s cheap land. They’re not located within the community, not walkable. Require many school busses that are used for a couple hours a day for a few months a year, so inefficient.

R26, re the Westward Expansion. What we think is normal [sic], ie a lone farm house surrounded by lots of fields, is different from the European model that I’ve seen which is all the farmers living in a small village and the village is surrounded by their fields. Living closely together meant they could share equipment if necessary, and they weren’t isolated. I saw this in northern Germany and wondered why the US had developed so differently. I guess we were settled by a lot of independent misanthropes.

R27, the presentation explains why better schools are subsided by the federal government, not through local tax revenue

Thanks R25 - what you say is very well thought out and ties things together that makes a great deal of sense to me (R16).

R29 - I think there’s a good deal of truth in your joke. The type of early 19th cent immigrant who would leave Europe and end up on a farm in Wisconsin probably was an independent misanthrope. There’s certainly a subtext of crazy to Pa in the Little House books.

Jealousy is ugly.

Let's not forget that the filthy overcrowded Europeans dragged us into TWO wars, I think overpopulation had something to do with it. People left Europe for America to get away.

I get why some people like living in cities. Lots to do, high energy etc. But a lot of the “parsley and goat cheese” is pure fantasy. In reality, living in an urban space means living in loud, congested areas, sharing walls with weirdos, sharing filthy buses/subways with homicidal weirdos, living in cramped conditions, vermin in your abode because the neighbor you share a wall with is a fat hoarder, crime, expensive groceries, bad schools, no opportunity to own your own property and build generational wealth,etc.

If only to have your own private space and having your own car (where YOU determine how you’re coming and going), living in a suburb is worth it. Plenty of suburbs have excellent ethnic restaurants, cultural events, parks, etc. And the bonus is you have peace and quiet and you can drive into the city at will and experience that as you wish.

[quote]The car-centric life of suburbia is a feature, not a bug, for most of us who live here. We like driving everywhere. One reason we live in suburbia is that we can drive and park easily.

[quote]If only to have your own private space and having your own car (where YOU determine how you’re coming and going), living in a suburb is worth it.

Thanks, R27 and R34, you hit a central point that I tend to overlook or minimize. It's true, many Americans love cars and road trips and a sense of freedom that a car represents to Americans. I'm an American still, born there but without the car and without the roadtrip gene. For me a car was always more a burden and a worry than a pleasure or a ticket to independence. I moved to Europe and much prefer the density of cities, of having think at hand meaning within easy walking distance, and not having had to drive anywhere for years. That's freedom for me; for many Americans I understand it is not.

It's also freedom for me to live within 2 blocks of 5 grocery stores, more than a dozen restaurants, an equal number of bars and cafes, 5 shops that sell freshly made prepared foods, 2 butchers, 3 bakers, 2 seafood shops, 4 fruit and vegetable shops, hardware stores, plant shops, florists, general merchandise, 3 framers, 4 shopfront barbers or hair salons, 2 shoe repair shops, a dry cleaner, 2 key makers, 2 key duplicating shops, 2 museums, a music conservatory, 3 public spaces for exhibitions and events, artist studios and galleries, book shops, copy shops, and lots more...and I live in one of the quiet parts of the very center which is a five minute walk to everything. It's beautiful, pleasant, absolutely safe at the oddest hour; the streets and sidewalks are hosed down every night; you can walk at least 45 minutes in any directional and not approach an even slightly dodgy neighborhood. Having everything within steps of my door or a 15 minute walk is perfect.

The Soviets did it much better

The most popular suburbs in the UK are located close to cities. They have parks, lakes golf courses just like the more distant outer suburbs, but are within a few miles of town. They are generally a much more expensive option.

[quote] Plenty of suburbs have excellent ethnic restaurants, cultural events, parks, etc.

R34, I think this is what many urbanists don't think about or choose to ignore. They think the suburbs haven't changed since they grew up there, but in fact inner suburbs and so-called edge cities have a wide range of restaurants. They're also quite diverse, especially among the younger crowd. (My local Wegman's has so many purple-haired non-binary types that I sometimes wonder if they offer a discount or something. *joking!*) It's true that you won't find "vibrant" streets filled with urban energy, whatever that may be. The thing is, not everyone likes or care about that or wants to live in the middle of it. As R35 was born without the car gene, I was born without the "vibrant streets" gene.

Also, R35, I do understand the convenience of so many hyperlocal businesses, having lived in a nice urban neighborhood. However, no matter how many shops you have nearby, sooner or later, you're going to need or want something you can't walk to. It's really no different in suburbia, but substitute a short drive for "walk to". I can get everything I normally need with a 10 minute drive of my home - often less. But some things are further away; that's just inevitable, and it applies everywhere, city or suburb. For me, that's no big deal. Jump in the car and go. For a non-car-owner, it mean organizing a trip on public transportation, carrying home whatever they bought, etc. Or you can take a cab or an Uber. None of those are as convenient as getting in your own car and going. That's freedom to me.

I don't think this idea of freedom is unique to Americans, either. It seems that in every country, rises in car ownership go hand in hand with rises in wealth. I'll bet that, in your country (the entire country, not just your inner-city neighborhood) in Europe, most people who can afford it own cars and that the traffic is terrible in every city.

Another gene that's relevant is the "open space" gene. I think a lot of Americans - not just ranchers on the Great Plains, but a lot of ordinary people - have a strong preference for open space around them. When they look out their windows, they want to see lots of sky. They may see houses, too, or wide streets or even shopping centers, but they want low density.

Not everyone feels that way. Some love the density of the city, but I do think there's something built into Americans - maybe from our immigrant ancestors fleeing crowded conditions - that many of us simply prefer open space, even if it's not especially pretty, to feeling crowded, even if the buildings are beautiful and the people fascinating.

OP, thank you for posting. I read Strong Towns years ago and it's changed my life (not an exaggeration). Now, I'm obsessed with urbanism. I am considering joining Strong Towns where I live. Currently reading Walkable City (the 10th anniversary edition written after Covid) and loving it. By the way, some of the most bleak pictures on the internet are before-and-after pictures of urban renewal in American cities. Cities like Kansas City and and Detroit are a joke compared to what they used to look like.

[quote] t. My question is why am I such an outlier in America in how I think and what I want from my living situation. Suburbs, despite the backing of corporate America & the government, still appeal to more people than an urban lifestyle.

You accidentally answered your own question. Of course people prefer to live in sprawling suburbs, they are SUBSIDIZED. If people had to pay the real costs of living in those bland houses, you would see the desire to live in them plummet.

[quote] If that's not your thing, live in the city. I don't care. Just stop telling suburbanites (who outnumber city dwellers, especially when you discount the parts of many cities that are, in fact, really suburban) that we're wrong. There's no right or wrong. It's a matter of lifestyle choice, and Americans mostly choose the suburbs.

What IS wrong is the degree that sprawling suburbs are subsidized and how the majority of them are zoned to support single uses. Suburbanites should start paying massively higher property taxes if they want to maintain their current lifestyles.

Suburbs don't need to go but they should be built up to become more dense, walkable and provide a social and commercial life. There's a reason young people hate suburbs and make a goal to flee. Early suburbs were built around rail lines or trams which made commuting to the city easier. Small towns used to be actually small and walkable too. These big sprawling strip mall suburbs in the middle of nowhere make no sense and most of those were built after cars became popular and affordable after WW2. But anyway, I think these big isolated culture-free suburbs are declining as more and more people are moving into metropolitan areas.

Agree with R38. Also, in some parts of the country, immigrants skip making their first home a city and go straight to living in the suburbs.

Hear hear r42

R44 But many go into suburbs that are close to major cities where there are jobs and are usually denser where both walking and driving are options. They aren't moving into the middle of nowhere in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, Wisconsin etc. They want to be around their own communities as well. The suburbs that are ideal would have everything in a ten-minute drive. The suburbs that people hate on are the ones where it's a thirty minute to an hour-long drive anywhere. I agree people need to clarify things better though and not generalize.

[quote]The suburbs that people hate on are the ones where it's a thirty minute to an hour-long drive anywhere.

I would hate that, too, and I love living in the suburbs. But where are these places? Nowhere around Philadelphia, New York or DC. The only places where it might be a longish drive - probably not 30 mins, though - to a shopping center or restaurant are the super-expensive faux-country suburbs (e.g. parts of northern Westchester Co, NY or Great Falls, VA), where they don't have development because they don't want it.

I can't help but think that this is a bit of a myth, and that the main places where it's not a short drive to plenty of shopping and restaurants up to DL standards are mostly poor suburbs, which lack amenities in the same way the poor parts of cities lack amenities.

When will the communist idealogues who constitute the bulk of urban planners quit wanting Americans to live in 15 foot wide, 700 square foot row houses with no front or back yard, walk to work and take shitty, filthy public transit anyplace else, just like in the good old days?

So tiresome.

Loathe suburbs. Give me urban density any time.

I find it interesting on this thread that over the top negative exaggerations are pinned onto urban life much more than suburban life.

The YouTube presentation left me dumbfounded.

for a short time in my teens I went to boarding school and lived rurally. subsequently, I've ALWAYS lived in the center of a big city. I've never lived ever in my 50 years in a suburb. I can't stand it. never will. I live and have always lived a 15 minute existence. fifteen minutes to walk where ever I need to. the slavery of the car in the suburbs is a like prison. can't stand it

[quote]Why do people want to live like rats and Europeans?

you're a shithead, because it is better to live that way, you cunt

[quote] When will the communist idealogues who constitute the bulk of urban planners quit wanting Americans to live in 15 foot wide, 700 square foot row houses with no front or back yard, walk to work and take shitty, filthy public transit anyplace else, just like in the good old days?

When your suburban lifestyle stops being subsidized so much by the government and you start paying massively higher property taxes.

I can walk around by block and get to a supermarket, 2 24 hour delis, a hardware store, a public library, a walk in medical clinic, a 99-cent type store, 2 clothing stores, a subway stop and several restaurants. All without crossing the street. If I do cross a street add in a post office, a liquor store, a very nice cocktail bar, a laundromat, a bakery, a dry cleaner, an elementary school, a park and another half-dozen more restaurants. The only thing missing is a movie theater.

As with many things, this is all about social class.

As R11 correctly notes

[quote] I'm a big defender of early suburbs, the late 19thC railroad suburbs and the early 20thC suburbs of the Olmsted Brothers and others, the 'close-in suburbs' a short drive or bike or bus ride away from the center of the city but set apart in a park-like setting often along a river or stream, with big Shaker Heights sorts of houses in various revival styles, wide boulevards, big lawns, big trees...

[quote] After WWII, however, it's a very different story as shown in the subject video.

The upper middle classes live in well-designed "leafy" suburbs with walkable downtown areas and while a car makes life easier, trips are much shorter, walking is possible and (as the term "railroad suburb" indicates) commuting to the city is done via public transportation.

Compare that the the blue collar/middle class suburbs built for returning GIs in the midcentury period, the ones that many DLers were brought up in. Those are often soulless and flawed.

Ditto the turn-of-the-21st-century "upscale" suburbs in the Sunbelt, all those "gated communities' with names like "Pheasant Run at Twin Oaks" or "The Villas at Conquistador Village" with their McMansions and topiary

I need a big newly constructed modern house with a big yard. I need a garage, washer and dryers in my home, and central air. I can’t stand rats, litter, or crime. I need great schools for my kids. I like having big box stores and the mega mall nearby. I like free parking. I love my suburb

R43, only a certain minority of young people move to dense big cities. Most American young adults move to the suburbs, exurbs, or low density sunbelt cities.

a thirty minute to an hour-long drive anywhere

DFW are you listening?!!! Even though I detest rat infested disease ridden cities. Getting around Dallas is like being in fucking Kazakhstan.

R57 and this is fine except for the fact your needs and lifestyle choices are heavily subsidized by the feds.

You are in fact, a true welfare queen. You take out more than you give.

Ironic that the ones who insist on living in suburbia are also always the ones that complain about gas prices.

And it's always someone else's fault, not theirs for

(a) living 20 miles or more from where they work and

(b) buying the largest, least gas efficient car that they could possibly buy on the marketplace.

[quote] Ditto the turn-of-the-21st-century "upscale" suburbs in the Sunbelt, all those "gated communities' with names like "Pheasant Run at Twin Oaks" or "The Villas at Conquistador Village" with their McMansions and topiary

There's an interesting essayist named James Howard Kunstler. He had some interesting ideas about suburbia - sadly he seemed to fall down the stoney end (MAGA/Q et al) a few years back.

Anyway, I mention him because one of his more famous quotes is (to paraphrase) developers will name the suburban soulless new housing plans after whatever animal they killed or drove out to build the houses.

He also railed against the horribleness of how so many suburbs were built - I won't go into deep details without boring everyone but just the basics (so many empty parking lots along the road, versus having nice buildings and parking behind them, etc.) So many suburbs are just hideous eyesores.

R56, yes, this is very much about social class. Nice suburbs are nice to live in. Poor suburbs are not.

But this is true in urban neighborhoods as well. R55's slightly unbelievable urban paradise (one wonders how they managed to fit any residential space in that crowded block!) is probably not a poor neighborhood. Visit the lower-income parts of any big US cities and see how many supermarkets, delis and sit-down restaurants there are.

Anyway, the point is that this really is all a matter of preference, but it's the urbanists who like to sneer and deride. Suburbanists are happy out here in our quiet neighborhoods, a 10-minute drive from everything we need.

[quote]Compare that the the blue collar/middle class suburbs built for returning GIs in the midcentury period, the ones that many DLers were brought up in. Those are often soulless and flawed.

Soulless and flawed describes so many American cities.

You ignore the substandard housing stock of cities back then. The horrible air pollution. The substandard schools. The rising crime. The lack of green spaces, playgrounds and field for sports.

Of course families wanted out.

[quote]Americans except in a very few large cities haven't known the convenience of living in a proper mixed use city center where all things you need and want are within blocks away not miles

I have always lived in cities during my adult life. First Manhattan and then over 3 decades in a small charming Italian city. That's MY style of living.

But I fully understand why people prefer the suburbs.

Oh, and let me also add: I have never owned a car. I walk.

Same here

The notion that cities have no supermarkets or chain stores is laughable. Like it's a all a bunch of people swishing around, greeting neighbors and buying goat cheese and parsley from twee boutiques. Get real. In your head, DL, in your head.

I live in the city and have a “country house” in the far suburbs. I like the combination. A true country house in the middle of nowhere was isolating, problematic and nice in theory more than in reality. The exurban house works perfectly - land and privacy but stores, trains, easy access to everything you need. Living full time in either drives me a little nuts.

Pandemic life in the exurbs was ideal. Post pandemic, the city is great to enliven and reengage with life. Suburbs are what people, especially corporate families, want - their solitary family existence with tv, private rooms for everyone and a HUGE open kitchen for family meals/tv watching when they happen to share a space.

Suburbs work for families - not so much for singles or old people.

Don't people here realize that in many suburbs it's possible to live near shops, restaurants, and businesses? Or that it's a short drive to downtown or a shopping center? Besides if you live near a really good, large suburban supermarket you really don't need to live (as city people do) near a lot of small shops. And those shops (and living in the city in general) are going to cost a lot of money.

I would hate to walk around from shop to shop with a lot of bags and without a car, trying to lug around meat, fruit, cake, vegetables, eggs, whatever, from shop to shop. And you still need necessities like toilet paper, paper towels, dish and laundry soap, trash bags, whatever. Do you really enjoy hauling these things up and down subway stairs, on trains and buses? I'd rather go to a supermarket or a mall when it's raining out and not have to face the elements. Why live like it's 1935?

Honestly most suburbs make me feel like being dead. A few older ones have some charm at least but the modern ones are hell. It’s a shame city living is so expensive

It's interesting how important "charm" is to some people. As well as how they define it. I can have as much charm as I want inside my home. Where I live I want safety, cleanliness, open space, clean air.

European suburbs feel like hell to me.

R46 You are correct, inner and outer suburbs are very different.

I live in an inner suburb of Manchester in the UK, large houses, public parks, lakes, tennis club (even a 19th century canal). From here I can walk to Manchester City Centre in 30 minutes, though I usually take a cab, bus or tram. The Airport is only a 25 minute drive.

The the downside is gentrification. Property prices in my area are now very high, we have constant battles with developers trying to convert family homes into apartments (usually win due to the lack of parking).

Inner suburbs here are great places to live, you have the best of both worlds. If you can afford it?

I live in a suburb and outside of rush hour it's only a 10-15 minute drive to one of the best hospitals in the world (in a city). If you lived in the city you probably couldn't walk there, and would have to take public transpo that would take longer than 10 minutes - unless you live right by it.

[quote]Kids were stuck in a maze of identical houses with nowhere else to go within walking distance and nothing else to do so they hung out in the basement rec rooms and, being bored, got into all kinds of trouble.

This is nonsense anyway, because kids had Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, school sports, street sports, playgrounds, dances, church activities, Little League, Pop Warner. Kids had garage bands (a lot of the great American rock bands began in the suburbs). Drive-ins.

But anyway are they saying kids got into more trouble in basement rec rooms than they did on city streets?

Grew up in the city and did the goat cheese thing as a young adult. When I got older and had to walk home in crappy weather after dental surgery, I bailed for the suburban life. It’s calm, convenient, leafy and all that, but boring as hell.

The percentage of Americans living in suburbs rose from 13 percent of the metropolitan population in 1940 to 86 percent in 2017, a gradual increase of 2 percent a year. And since 2012, suburbs and exurbs have accounted for about 90 percent of all metropolitan growth. This dispersion has occurred not only in the United States but in the old cities of Europe, too, including London and Paris.

I have been on DL long enough to know these things to be true:

1. Many DLers who live in smaller cities and Sunbelt cities (or the suburbs thereof) have never been to a place like Shaker Heights or Bronxville and can't imagine that sort of suburb.

2. Many DLers from the "leafy" Northeastern burbs have lived in coastal cities too but only know the sprawling middle class burbs and gated community burbs from TV and movies

3. Many DLers fled postwar tract house burbs back in the 1960s and 1970s to live in cities among other homosexuals and can't imagine ever living in suburbia again

R69 You can have bulk items delivered same/next day for as little as $2 in the UK. (free if you spend enough).

I usually do that once a month. Mainly booze, but usually add paper products, canned food, laundry liquid and anything else heavy. They also deliver my cigarettes. Don't want a tip either.

I only ever physically go food shopping for vegetables and meat.

If I forget anything a 'Whoosh delivery' will bring it in 20 minutes for $3.

It's even cheaper if you sign up to a monthly delivery plan.

Apparently R54 thinks the $10k a year property taxes on this house need to be massively higher.

I just don’t like them but happy for those of you who do

There's a fourth way of living here in the US, only barely mentioned here. We've had discussion here of large city urban cores - large city isolated and car-dependent suburbs - and rural. But many Americans live in mid-sized cities - (200,000- 500,000) big enough to have professional symphonies, theater companies, art museums and galleries, a wide variety of restaurants - but spread out enough that cars are a necessity, except for those living on the fringe of the downtown areas. I would argue that these mid-sized cities offer the best quality of life for the widest variety of residents. Shorter commutes, lower crime rates, less expensive housing, cultural amenities within easy reach (and more affordable than in large cities), pleasant parks spaced out every 15 blocks or so, and large enough lots that people can have small flower gardens or grow a couple of fruit trees. In many neighborhoods they have at least a couple of stores and neighborhood destinations to walk to. They fall down on ease of travel (usually they do not have "hub" airports) and their gay communities are relatively small and don't allow for much in the way of anonymity.

Asheville

[quote] kids had Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, school sports, street sports, playgrounds, dances, church activities, Little League, Pop Warner. Kids had garage bands (a lot of the great American rock bands began in the suburbs). Drive-ins.

Yes. And they had to have an adult DRIVE them to all those places and then pick them up afterwards. If the mother worked, she had to arrange carpools. It was endless hassle especially if you had more than one kid. Getting your license at 16 was more important than getting into college.

If this is how you want to live go for it

[quote]Yes. And they had to have an adult DRIVE them to all those places and then pick them up afterwards. If the mother worked, she had to arrange carpools. It was endless hassle especially if you had more than one kid

So?

Yes, there were negative aspects (such is life) but on the positive side there was the Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, school sports, street sports, playgrounds, dances, church activities, Little League and all the rest.

All those thing exist in the city as well. But mostly suburban kids hung out in the basement rec room smoking.

Why does DL believe in the most extreme, reductionist generalizations? It’s a sign of a lack of intelligence

(Hit post too soon) ^ But mostly suburban kids hung out in the basement rec room smoking “because there was no place to go”.

The issue at the center of everything in the U.S. is cars. Americans love them, prioritize where they live in order to keep cars central in their lives. Whatever you think of cars, in the U.S. they are a given.

Post-WWII UK planners sometimes at least had the excuse of bombing damage, but American planners did their best to rip out the guts of established large cities, creating East and West Ends, replacing neighborhoods with cloverleafs, isolating riverfronts with 10-lane expressways, replacing landmark buildings in the center with concrete parking structures. Decades later, a second wave of damage was packaged as economic incentives for giant sports stadia and overnight 'skylines' of generic glass-sheathed bank services centers and health insurance companies.

Americans value roads more than cities. There's little by way of alternative. AMTRAK trains are a just satisfactory means to travel with the Northeast Corridor of the U.S., between Washington DC and Boston. Beyond that it's the disconnected remnants of the old lines stock of a developing nation, propped up by a network of Greyhound Buses, and bested by Chinatown bus lines in a few lucky places. To fly round-trip 300 miles from Cincinnati to Chicago is either $600 or $700 (or maybe $250 with months advance planning). It's the same time/distance/cost conundrum to travel from Washington DC to Pittsburgh, or from Philadelphia to Richmond a 4.5 hour drive is your best bet. Except for the invention of cars, the options of getting between those points have not improved since the railroad time schedules of 1857.

Americans will ask, 'Why don't you just drive?" They think nothing of a 4.5 hour drive, bragging that just last week they drove from Cleveland to Miami Beach in 14 hours. Driving is the default assumption. Mass transit systems are not missed so much as mistrusted. Cars though are security against brushing up against the unwashed, of having to step outside in the weather: home garage to office garage to home garage and do it again tomorrow.

Cars in the U.S. are deeply tied to Americans' sense of freedom and identity and to where they live. They don't view cars so much as a tool as an appendage. Most don't understand that people in major cities or in other countries could possibly be happy without cars. The poor things -- no freedoms, no cars.

In the U.S., there's always a hint of suspicion in discussion of cities. Republicans seize on this instinctual distrust of cities as chaotic, a few small quarters filled with the very rich and the rest low-income, underprivileged, sketchy, dangerous. Even the words 'urban' and 'street' have negative connotations, and are lent a certain emphasis to hint at the correct nuance with which they should be interpreted. You can't talk about life in cities in the U.S. without talking about dangers and perils and class differences and boiling points. In much of Europe, those are foreign ideas to a discussion of cities. Crime is a much bigger factor in the U.S. and its cities than in Europe and its cities. The negative connotations of cities, the view of them as inferior, undesirable places is ingrained in Americans and wrongly magnified when making assumptions about cities in other countries.

[quote]I would hate to walk around from shop to shop with a lot of bags and without a car, trying to lug around meat, fruit, cake, vegetables, eggs, whatever, from shop to shop. And you still need necessities like toilet paper, paper towels, dish and laundry soap, trash bags, whatever. Do you really enjoy hauling these things up and down subway stairs, on trains and buses? I'd rather go to a supermarket or a mall when it's raining out and not have to face the elements. Why live like it's 1935?

Simple, R69. They don't do all their shopping all at once. They fill their smaller refrigerators and smaller kitchens with the ingredients for meals for a few days then grab the missing ingredient if they improvise on a plan. If they prefer, they can order bulky items from any grocery store, department store, neighborhood shop and it will be delivered to them at a convenient time, either for free or for a couple of Euros, no tipping. And they don't carry them on buses and trains and subways because they don't need to do. There's a grocery store no more than a block or two away from your front door. No subway stairs, trains, and buses involved.

Most Americans think of public transportation as unpleasant at best, beneath them and dangerous in most cases. Americans value control and freedom, and driving cars and trucks maximizes both values.

[quote] Americans will ask, 'Why don't you just drive?" They think nothing of a 4.5 hour drive, bragging that just last week they drove from Cleveland to Miami Beach in 14 hours. Driving is the default assumption.

The electric cars are intended to take that away. Twelve hours to "refuel" with electric vs five minutes with gasoline will be a blow for 𝑒𝑞𝑢𝑖𝑡𝑦.

[quote]Republicans seize on this instinctual distrust of cities as chaotic, a few small quarters filled with the very rich and the rest low-income, underprivileged, sketchy, dangerous.

So the truth is just a Republican thing?

From today's NYTimes: "‘The Era of Urban Supremacy Is Over"

“ Nobody wants to live in US style empty suburbs that don't even have sidewalks ”

Horseshit. When Philadelphia was burning in 2020, I was quite happy in my suburban house watching it, even without sidewalks outside!

[quote]Cars in the U.S. are deeply tied to Americans' sense of freedom and identity and to where they live. They don't view cars so much as a tool as an appendage. Most don't understand that people in major cities or in other countries could possibly be happy without cars. The poor things -- no freedoms, no cars.

Two very different countries but look how little difference there is between car ownership in densely populated Italy and the wide open USA.

Motor vehicles per 1,000 people:

USA: 890

Italy: 755

You would think there would be an extreme difference. Living in Italy I looked on as an odd one for not owning a car or having a driver's license.

Who the fuck is this Clickbait Granny posting every clickbait they can find on datalounge? Piss off.

And stay off R97s lawn dammit!

[quote]They don't do all their shopping all at once. They fill their smaller refrigerators and smaller kitchens with the ingredients for meals for a few days then grab the missing ingredient if they improvise on a plan. If they prefer, they can order bulky items from any grocery store, department store, neighborhood shop and it will be delivered to them at a convenient time, either for free or for a couple of Euros, no tipping. And they don't carry them on buses and trains and subways because they don't need to do. There's a grocery store no more than a block or two away from your front door. No subway stairs, trains, and buses involved.

You know very little about living in modern day Europe.

That's because it's 1987 on Datalounge R99

200 shops.

6,000 parking spaces.

Take a look.

I grew up in the one of the first suburbs in the country. We had sidewalks. It was a 10 minute walk to a plaza which had a grocery store, pharmacy, delicatessen, dry cleaners, hair dresser, etc. We had 5 high schools with about 2,000 kids in each one. Are you sure that these other suburbs you are talking about aren't just country living?

Who is this nincompoop who says no one wants to live in suburbs without sidewalks? Have they not seen the latest census stats?

R94 LOL that even the NYT reporter was stunned when the Stanford economist suggested massive out-migration was good for cities.

Thomas Edsall is a pox on the NYT

Cherry picks data, doesn't understand what he's cherry-picking half the time, talks to people who are not well regarded as experts in their field and engages in massive amounts of whataboutism.

I'd sooner slit my wrists than move to the suburbs. This thread confirms that.

DC is currently squawking about a declining population and moribund business district, which is creating a longterm budget deficit. But people aren’t stupid. They know it’s more expensive to live in DC, from housing costs, to childcare, to taxes. It’s also more dangerous than the exurbs or North Carolina. The amenities of living in DC just aren’t worth the cost to most.

It doesn't have to be a cookie cutter sub division vs city tenements. There's also the countryside and old fashioned small towns with a main street and shady bungalow lined streets.

Like Asheville and Boone

[quote]You know very little about living in modern day Europe.

R99, I wrote about my experience living in an historic city center, not the new shopping mall outside Florence. Do you mean to suggest that the future of Europe is moving to suburbs and building the largest shopping mall in Italy? An Eatly-ization of Italy and Europe? A mall is a mall, but a European suburb is rather different from an American suburb, and very different from suburban sprawl.

I live in a city founded before Florence, a little bigger. A "luxury shopping mall" opened a few years ago near the inside edge of the city, and there is one other in a new office/hotel complex adjacent the center, both are popular with tourists who long for an H&M in their travels. Neither of these is large and neither has a 6000 car parking lot or anything near that (parking is all underground). All of these have some aspects of suburbanization of the city, but in the same way that international brands pollute the shops that ring the streets around Santa Maria del Fiore.

I don't understand the connection between the links to the I Gigli shopping center in Florence and the Arese shopping mall in Milan with its 200 shops and 6000 parking spaces and the way Europeans live day to day lives. What is it that you think I've missed? Did Italians have such an itch for the Lego shop, the Apple shop, Primark (for fuck's sake), H&M, Adidas, Bath & Body Works, etc. that they are all moving to the suburbs to live next to the mall?

[quote]I could care fewer!

I think you mean, "I couldn't care fewer!"

R110 I lived for over 3 decades in Italy.

[quote]Did Italians have such an itch for the Lego shop, the Apple shop, Primark (for fuck's sake), H&M, Adidas, Bath & Body Works, etc. that they are all moving to the suburbs to live next to the mall?

You bet they do.

Have you ever been to I Gili or the huge Ikea and other big box stores at Campi. Who is shopping there? You think it's tourists? And who is filling the new residential developments ?

You really think average Italian families are longing to live in historic centers, in 500 year old buildings? No. They want space. Efficient heating and air-conditioning. Parking for their two cars. Brand new kitchens and bathrooms. Elevators. etc.

Florence Italy

If you live in an dense, urban city (as opposed to a low density sprawling city like LA) grocery stores, pharmacies (and now in nyc often small Targets) are a 3 - 10 minute walk from your apartment - so you only schlep a bag of groceries or household necessities a few blocks at most, and you may shop every 3 days versus once a week.. And, since urban dwellers tend to walk a great deal every day anyway, this is not an exhausting or difficult task. Things that can be more difficult involve getting a new couch or some other large item delivered or home - but after you’re moved in, that’s only happens once a year or so.

R112 - the building you posted would be classified as “urban” by 90% of Americans. The original discussion drew a big distinction between the densities and mixed-use layout of European vs American suburbs.

R115 Those many developments are car centric. They are suburban. They are not the dense walkable ideal that you wrongly believe all Europeans aspire to.

Updating those 800 year old houses in European city centers to accommodate modern appliances/have enough outlets for current needs/more than a single bathroom - not cheap

The LA metro Region has the highest density of any major metro region in the US

R116 - I know they are suburban - European suburban -which is still very different than modern single family exurban US suburbs where multi family buildings are largely illegal.

Again, the original arguments in this post are not completely against car-centric sunburns, but the vast distances that US suburbs place between places where people live / work / shop and the utter lack of any kind of viable public transit, not to mention limited walkability - which was a characteristic of many pre WWII American suburbs, and is still more prevalent in postwar European suburbs.

The ideal is not to move everyone into a dense urban environment, but to add density and mixed use to American suburbs - the kind of building you posted would be part of that solution, but again, in America, most suburbs are zoned, and have a culture, that makes that type of development virtually impossible.

You are taking the discussion to an extreme, like many other posters in this thread on both sides of the issue. The problem at hand is US suburban development as it currently exists is becoming unsustainable on several fronts and the question is how to mitigate some of that. Buildings like the one you posted could be part of that solution, but most suburban Americans would automatically (wrongly) categorize that type of development as “urban” and try to block it.

r119. the building referenced fits anyone and everyone's definition of suburban development to a t. Large parking lot, big box style stores, etc etc etc. You're the one taking things to extreme, parsing differences where they don't exist. "It's in Italy so it's VASTLY different!!!"

I've lived in and visited Italy across the decades. I was surprised on my most recent visit just a few weeks ago how much supermarket-style shopping with parking lots, carts etc, had replaced the "goat cheese and parsley" style so idolized here.

The notion that Europeans are all biking home from the bakery in a beret with a loaf of bread tucked under their arm is ludicrous.

.

R120 - you’re not reading or comprehending what I’m saying, and I’m not the poster that insists all Europeans bicycle everywhere. It has nothing to do with it being in Italy, or in a car-centric suburb. The issue is that it’s a multi-unit building that is over 2 stories tall - thus almost impossible to build in most America suburbs as they are currently zoned.

"L’evoluzione dell’offerta degli ultimi anni ha portato ad alcune certezze, la prima di tutte è che il consumatore oggi trova soddisfazione in assortimenti più profondi e completi, oltre alla comodità di poter raggiungere il negozio entro cinque minuti di auto e senza avere problemi di entrata ed uscita dagli stessi..... è finita l’epoca dei piccoli negozi di vicinato."

Huh?

Multistory, multiunit apartment buildings are common in American suburbs.

You can see thousands, maybe millions of such buildings, if you surf around at the attached link. It must be nice living in Italy, enjoy it, but you've clearly lost some perspective and insight what's in the US.

R123 I don't think you are quite following the thread. No one has said multistory, multiunit apartment buildings are not common in American suburbs.

R120 has it correct: "The notion that Europeans are all biking home from the bakery in a beret with a loaf of bread tucked under their arm is ludicrous".

Despite everyone's erudite mini-Phd theses postings, I think it really comes down to whether or not you want to drive/have a car and how much space you need from others. I can't drive and like living in a hive like environment. Cities work for me.

"No one has said multistory, multiunit apartment buildings are not common in American suburbs."

Actually, r121 said, "It’s a multi-unit building that is over 2 stories tall - thus almost impossible to build in most America suburbs as they are currently zoned." My post was in response to that. You're right: multistory, multiunit apartment buildings are common. The other poster was wrong and I was just pointing that out.

[quote] I'm an American still, born there but without the car and without the roadtrip gene.

Just say you’re a shut-in, hon.

I could never live somewhere where there is nothing within walking distance. Cars are the opposite of freedom. My sister was just complaining about how car is in the shop and what a headache that is. She lives in Cul de sac type environment where there is nothing within walking distance.

I have a so many things just a short walk away, I am not at the mercy of a vehicle to be able to live my life. That is freedom.

And I would not want multi zoning all over the place, who would want a BBQ restaurant opening up right nextdoor? That's how Europeans live and we don't have too.

I wouldn’t want to live anywhere without ample parking and a lack of rats and litter

R105, I was immediately skeptical when Wendell Cox was cited in the article. Wendell has a habit of cherrypicking data all the time.

I grew up in the suburbs but have lived in cities large and small since then. It is great to cross the street to buy milk or walk a block to have a drink at the bar. However, I sometimes long to live someplace cleaner and with fewer people.

I love living in Chicago and I do believe the creation of the post-WWII suburbs was a big mistake in so many ways. But I do wish Americans took better care of their cities and that they were as clean as Canadian cities...or Singapore. Minus the corporal punishment.

[quote] And I would not want multi zoning all over the place, who would want a BBQ restaurant opening up right nextdoor? That's how Europeans live and we don't have too.

The most "Karen" thing I have read all week.

R134 Why?

Most of the US is actually zoned that way.

R135, are you joking? "I don't want multi zoning because I'm afraid of BBQ restaurants opening next door" is just shrill and NIMBYism to the core.

Once again: most of the US is actually zoned that way.

And even most new residential construction in NYC does allow restaurants in their store fronts. Buyers don't want to live above them.

R89 All of you are full of shit. I grew up in one of those maze-like suburban housing tracts in the Valley of LA. We didn't have basements. and we had lots of open spaces. We played outside rode bikes everywhere and all of us walked to school. All schools were close enough to walk to. I used to read Kunstler until he became a crazy trump supporter. Before that he was liberal. I don't even think he believes the stupid crap he spews but I think his blog makes a lot of money and he has a solid right-wing following now. We will eventually run out of fossil fuels and sooner than most people realize. Electric cars will not replace fossil fuels. So living in the burbs that don't have good stores and things for people to do will wither and die.

I live in Manhattan on the upper east side, and I’m a fat fuck. I don’t walk anywhere nowadays, I take taxis or Ubers whenever possible and hate taking the subway because I can’t tolerate walking up the stairs to the sidewalk without almost fainting from angina or shortness of breath. I’m honestly better off in like, Levittown. Drive to the big boxes. God help me, when i’m an old man in the suburbs they’ll find me weeks or months after I die, mummifying in my suburban house all alone.

r/fuckcars comes to Datalounge.

How thrilling for us.

Not enough "fuck" on the boards these days.

[quote]The notion that Europeans are all biking home from the bakery in a beret with a loaf of bread tucked under their arm is ludicrous.

Nobody said that ALL or most Europeans were. You interpreted it that way to fit your own narrative.

Not every European lives in quaint villages with higgledy-piggledy steeply pitched roofs or in the historic centers of larger cities, brring-brring-brringing their little bike bells to clear pedestrians from the path that they may scurry home with their big bag of baguettes in an 800-year-old apartment with two dodgy electrical outlets.

And yet I don't see cities emptying out because no one wants to live there any more (tiny remote villages, maybe, but that's another story). Italy and Spain have problems with an aging population and low birth rate, but this has fuck all to do with suburbs. Those arise because city populations are stable and rising and because populations are increasing centered on cities. When the historic core is full, when touristic apartments escalate real estate prices in the centers, the edges expand.

.

[quote]And yet I don't see cities emptying out because no one wants to live there any more

In Europe they are emptying out.

And they are emptying out because no one wants to live there anymore.

Apartments are being replaced with Airbnbs. Bed and breakfasts. International student housing. Or restored into super luxury apartments for investment. Or converted into hotels.

Have you been to Florence in the last 10 years?

Actually I don't want a fucking BBQ restaurant nextdoor, or across the street either, you are probably so fat British cunt who has to live over a filthy takeaway, bitter much bitch?

For our non-US DLers, What Hisstopher really means by "BBQ restaurant" is "restaurants full of menacing Negroes."

[quote]When the historic core is full, when touristic apartments escalate real estate prices in the centers, the edges expand. . You also seem to be unaware about the influx of African and North African immigrants that are living 10 to an apartment in those "edges" around the cities. And the resultant culture clash.

The native population wants out.

[quote]When the historic core is full, when touristic apartments escalate real estate prices in the centers, the edges expand.

You also seem to be unaware about the influx of African and North African immigrants that are living 10 to an apartment in those "edges" around the cities. And the resultant culture clash.

The native population wants out.

I do live in a city, but I consider it urban suburban. That means there’s a small downtown core that has many businesses as well as theater and restaurants. It has the giant Civic Center and hotels. I live 7 miles from the downtown. My neighborhood was part of a planned urban development. Consequently, I can walk a very short distance, down the street to the supermarket, Tailer, cobbler, hair salon, barber, postal store, bagel, store, florist, three restaurants, liquor, store, and exercise, studio, and very shortly a decorating store. I also have a pool and tennis club and walking distance that I go to almost every day in the spring and summer. The area is walkable, and I only get in my car to go to the sports Arena, the airport or a small mall. And while I wish we had some light rail instead of these horrible buses, there is an option for alternative transportation. I moved here after living in the city. The real difference is minimal beyond urban issues that I do not miss.

[quote] cobbler

Hey nonny nonny - be the cobbler's shop near to the chandler and the cooper?

[quote]And they are emptying out because no one wants to live there anymore.

[quote]Apartments are being replaced with Airbnbs. Bed and breakfasts. International student housing. Or restored into super luxury apartments for investment. Or converted into hotels.

I mentioned touristic apartments. I mentioned what's become of the large ring of shops around Santa Maria del Fiore. You seem unable to separate cause and effect, "can't afford to" from "don't want to", and your own conclusion from fact. According to you, the massive growth in AirBnBs and international student housing and luxury investment housing and hotels is because if opportunity opened up because people in Florence prefer to live in modcon flats with allocated parking overlooking the new shopping mall with a Primark. You've got it backwards.

[quote]According to you, the massive growth in AirBnBs and international student housing and luxury investment housing and hotels is because if opportunity opened up because people in Florence prefer to live in modcon flats with allocated parking overlooking the new shopping mall with a Primark.

That is in fact exactly why.

Do you speak Italian fluently? Do you actually know average Italian families?

Average families do not want to live in ancient buildings in historic centers in 2023 with all the ensuing problems and disadvantages if they have a choice.

Leave that poster to her fantasy, r150. She has a lovely dream.

R97- the Meghan Markle threads are that way 👇

R150 Spot on. Most Southern European's prefer modern buildings. The cheapest homes to buy are 'Houses of Character' , because they are money pits.

In Italy you need approval for everything if you buy one.

I've done it in Lecce, it took 10 years to restore it due to the consents required. Which was OK for me as it wasn't my primary home (I had contractors, didn't do the work myself).

I wouldn't attempt it if it was my only full time residence.

I live in the deep south, walkable cities are invalid here less you want to have a heat stroke. I PITTY the poor people standing in the scorching heat and humidity waiting for the bus, but they have to. We have cars with air conditioning now, no need to suffer.

Besides, it would be horrible to have nothing but the same stores, barbers, etc. just so I can walk and have no other choices?

But why would anyone want to live in a McMansion in the sticks with no sidewalks or stores?

Surely if you choose to leave the City you want to walk and enjoy your new open surroundings?

You can travel to a barber if you like, it's just nice to walk and buy milk or a pack of cigarettes.

Never bought goat cheese and parsley in my life.

R128 It's near the "tailer".

[quote] I could never live somewhere where there is nothing within walking distance. Cars are the opposite of freedom. My sister was just complaining about how car is in the shop and what a headache that is. She lives in Cul de sac type environment where there is nothing within walking distance. I have a so many things just a short walk away, I am not at the mercy of a vehicle to be able to live my life. That is freedom.

Yeah public transportation is never a headache.

I think there are two sides to eveything and you make a few good points, but cars cannot truthfully be said to be the opposite of freedom because your sister's car is in the shop (I haven't had a car in the shop overnight for at least fifteen years). On a summer weekend I can get up and drive to a local beach, or to another state. I don't have to make elaborate plans to take an uber to a train or figure out when the train is coming back. I can just go, and I don't have to be going to visit someone. I can take a day and drive all around, stop in a store or a place to eat, discover scenic destinations. I'm not against living in the city but unless you have the money to take some big trip a couple of times a year, it strikes me as boring to want everything within walking distance.

R154 The South and Southwest will be uninhabitable in a few decades. The lack of walkability and food deserts is why obesity is so high in those regions. No amount of air conditioning and driving will prevent the damage of climate change.

Americans don't understand how antisocial they are. The fact they dread the idea of having to walk and visit the same barbers, coffee shops, gyms, parks and stores. Of course you can drive to different places. But what's wrong with frequenting local businesses and establishing a close relationship with the people there? That's how a community is formed through persistent interaction. The more attached you grow, the more willing to invest in the social life and economy of the community. There's a serious disconnect from community in most of The US and it's no wonder nihilism, depression, anxiety and boredom is so high. If people valued community, they would vote more in local elections and we'd have a more effective government. But what do I know?

R160, you are exactly right. But be prepared to get attacked by the Karen on here--"I don't need a fucking BBQ restaurant near my house!!!!".

I do think more urban suburbs are the future. If you think about it, the suburbs have become more "city" like while cities have become more suburban as well. Chicago has a ton of big chains like Target. The city is returning to the days of the early 20th century where it was a place for the rich and the poor (not the middle classes) while the suburbs will continue to attract people of all social classes.

Being able to walk for your basic needs and your simple pleasures, for leisure and exercise, is a luxury in a backwards ass country like the United States

[quote] How Suburbs Destroyed America

A ludicrous, hyperbolic, click-baiting headline.

R160, you’re wrong. I know exactly how “anti-social” I am. I don’t want to know all these people. I don’t want to spend 15 minutes gabbing with the butcher about his family or discussing the state of the world with the greengrocer (he’s near the cobbler and the cooper). Hell, I don't even want to know my neighbors except to smile and say "good morning" and "beautiful day, isn't it?"

The sort of friendly but impersonal service that used to be common before the pandemic is the ideal to me, and it's found as often in the 'burbs as in the city.

What you describes sounds like Brooklyn in the 1930s or a small southern town, not anywhere in urban or suburban America in the 21st century.

^^^ "describe", not "describes"

R165 and that's why Americans became so paranoid and divided. We are too self-absorbed to care about others. You think the human species evolved that way? That's not a healthy way to live at all. We are social animals and civilization wouldn't have been built if we didn't have a desire to connect to others and take care of our communities.

R160 Well you don't seem to know that many communities in the US were decimated in the past 40 years by the economy and NAFTA. Not everyone can live in gentrified neighborhoods in cities. So many of the small towns and small cities no longer have prosperous downtowns and of course the big stores like Walmart and Costco, and big corporations like Amazon, plus various economic policies, have destroyed small, local businesses that used to be in town squares. And don't blame individuals, they have had little say over it. Blame rampant capitalism, if anything.

Weirdly, r160 has it backwards imho.

People value the city for anonymity, while others value smaller communities for being close-knit.

I wasn't aware that it's impossible to visit the same stores more than once or to chat with the people that work there if you drive.

Amazing that you homosexuals have been on this earth for 60 or 70 years and never figured out that "there are things I really like that other people might not like and my way of doing things works well for me but not for everyone else."

Yes R160 has it completely ass-backwards. It is in the smaller communities where everyone knows one another. I live in one.

R171, exactly. I don't see suburbanites telling urbanists that they should move to the suburbs. Let those who want to live in the city live there and enjoy it.

It's these holier-than-thou urbanists who lecture the rest of us about how awful and destructive the suburbs are and how all development should be urban-oriented. They don't just sneer at suburbanites, which is a time-honored pastime for urban snobs; they make a moral crusade out of it, and that's obnoxious.

Please watch the video for more detailed information on the subject.

Suburbia documentary Radiant City (2006)

[quote] It's these holier-than-thou urbanists who lecture the rest of us about how awful and destructive the suburbs are and how all development should be urban-oriented

That's probably because the stereotypical suburb IS destructive to the environment and massively wasteful. I do think urbanists are wrong to completely look down on suburbs though. There are many great suburbs that are diverse and interesting (especially the older ones). For instance, Lake Forest in Illinois has some stunning architecture. And Evanston. And Oak Park. I think more urban suburbs are the future.

R175 That's a bitchy, condescending video.

F. Lloyd Wight planned a 'Radiant City'.

Why a catalytic converter theft was the final straw pushing one S.F. couple out of the city

R176, thank you for proving my point. We leave you alone, but you won't leave us alone. "Wasteful" is in the eye of the beholder and current fashionable thought. Wasteful of what? Land? The US has plenty of land. Fossil fuels? Yes, that's true but more efficient cars and reduced commuting will eventually reduce fossil fuel consumption to a fraction of current consumption. Water? A problem in the West. Not a problem in the East, where I live. Time? Remote working - which is here to stay despite the careerist assholes, "man is a social animal" obsessive extroverts, and downtown business interests trying to force people back into the office full time - greatly reduces commuting time.

The fact is that most urbanists are culturally offended by much of what characterizes typical mid- to outer-ring suburbs. Ew! Chain restaurants! Ew! No "vibrant" street life! Ew! No mom-and-pop shops with eccentric hours and great service ... if the owners like you! In other words, they just don't like it there. That's their choice, but, being zealots, they can't just live and let live. They have to try to force their pseudo-religion on others.

Nope. The presentation identified the problem with suburbs in clear terms. Namely that your lifestyle is heavily and unnaturally subsidized by the feds.

R180, you're just going to get shrill, angry responses that are the planning equivalent of "I just wish homosexuals would stop shoving their lifestyle in our faces!".

You are correct OP

All of the suburban-dwelling homosexuals are thoroughly chastened and will be selling their condos and ranch houses tomorrow so that they can live a more fulfilling and socially responsible lifestyle in cute one-bedrooms and studios in Hell's Kitchen amongst their fellow Queers.

They have asked me to pass on how grateful they are to you for removing the blinders from their eyes and helping them to see the truth via your many, many posts on this thread and your tough-but-fair attitude towards dissent.

Now that your work is done here, perhaps there are Mommy groups who need converting as to the evils of suburbia.

Honey, can you please calm down. This is not about being chastened. It's about being educated.

They are chastened because they have been educated as to how wrong they are and they just wanted me to thank you for being such a great teacher, the only person ever able to help them pull the scales from their eyes and see how they've been living their lives the wrong way.

I have also been asked to see if you give relationship advice, diet and exercise tips and whose clothes do you wear.

Please share these with us so that we may reach a higher level of existence as well.

Obviously, you didn't bother watching the YouTube video and you are just venting.

I did watch it

I have always lived in the city but I immediately called three friends in the suburbs and gave them a piece of my mind for helping to destroy the planet.

Two of the three watched your video and are planning to put their homes on the market this weekend.

But back to you... are you a vegan? Do you do OMAD? What about clothes? I see you in a lot of recycled clothing from Patagonia and thrift store finds.

My favorite part is when he compares it to a Ponzi scheme at around 04:14

When he says "Ponzi scheme" in the sexy French accent I totally chubbed up.

You are not funny or cute. Just strangely wound up about this subject.

I hope you've signed up for Incogni OP

And why can't you take a compliment?

We love you OP. we want to be like you

So tell us about yourself. So many of us want to hear other tips from you.

Are you more into ashtanga, kundalini or vinyasa?

Spoken like a true suburbanite, a waste of time and energy.

This is how I imagine you OP

Am I close?

You are too harsh master with your followers

Should we begin to use :"suburbanite" in place of "cunt" on DL?

I think you are just testing us to see if we really are true believers like you.

Mr Something knows about so many brilliant things

Here he is telling us all the right way to think about those nasty Russians invading Ukraine

Limp and lame suburbanite welfare queen flipping out because your bullshit is being called out.

Will you be calling me woke next?

😂

Waste of time.

I get so hard when you call me names like that OP

Tell me I am your little suburban slut.

Tell me how I am part of a Ponzi scheme and need to be punished.

I am a bad and wasteful boy

Oh.

So that is why you are so pissy and wound up for no good reason.

You a Putin cheerleader.

Should have known.

Pathetic

Oh noze!

The Woke people do not like Mr. Something

[quote] In a video about monorails he called China "authoritarian" so hes not one of us but he has interesting things to say

[bold] Everything You Wanted To Know About The Creator of OP's Video But Were Afraid To Ask[/bold]

He uploads videos about politics, urban planning around the world, and various forms of technology; including responses to people in politics and on the internet. Some examples being a CGP Grey video about self-driving cars,[4] various ideas by Elon Musk,[5] Ben Shapiro,[6] and PragerU.[7][8]

Most of his responses are addressed at Conservative or right-wing entities, indicating that he is on the left wing on the political spectrum. He is not in favor of free market capitalism[9] and is derisive of Anarcho-Capitalism.[10][11] He dislikes the city of Dubai and Hyperloops,[12][13] and is in favor of rail and urban mass transit.[14][15][16]

Many of the videos are made with a voice over with various images, but the Question and Answer video, as well as in his video "Commie Blocks Are Pretty Good, Actually", used his webcam. The playlist tab has Mutiple playlists, called "Ukraine Coverage",[17] "Transit-related",[18] "Culture War / Politics",[19] "Urbanism",[20] and "Elon Musk-related".[21] His channels tab contains his second channel, Adam Something Else, and the community tab is sometimes updated with updates about the channel such as a Discord server, polls, etc.

His most popular video, "Dubai Is A Parody of the 21st Century", went viral in August 2021 and reached 9 million views, but was removed due to copyright. It was then re-uploaded and has since received almost 5 million views.

I still want to be your naughty little suburban slut boy OP

I want you to tear up my cul-de-sac

Violate my media room

Make me scream like a lawn gnome on a white picket fence.

Fill me with your topiary

Please OP

I need you on my freeway exit

[quote]The presentation identified the problem with suburbs in clear terms. Namely that your lifestyle is heavily and unnaturally subsidized by the feds.

Bullshit.

"Busting Rural-Subsidy Myth One Last Time"

PROBLEM solved !

R200, that link has nothing to do with suburbs, it is about rural areas vs urban.

[quote] We are social animals

Sigmund Freud says we MUST speak to six human beings every day. Otherwise we go nuts.

American Suburbs = ponzi scheme

“A sterile oasis, free from street eaters and coffee carriers.”