Please spill all the tea on “Dawson’s Creek”

JWS posted here and denied allegations many ears ago.

R1, Pacey also denied the allegations about his illicit affair with his teacher, Ms. Tamara Jacobs. You’d expect JWS to stay true to the spirit of the series.

Dylan Neal was so fucking sexy in his cop uniform

Jen/Michelle Williams was done so dirty by the show.

Michelle was the most talented young actor of the cast, and Jen was the best character (along with Gram).

Williamson was besotted with Katie Holmes (in a non-sexual way, of course) - I remember an interview where he gushed about her as if she was some budding screen goddess. She must have mastered the art of wrapping that gay boy around her finger.

Holmes was certainly more conventionally "pretty" vs. Williams, but even the few times I watched the show it was obvious that Williams was the better actress, and Joshua Jackson was a much better actor than Van Der Beek.

Williams has had the last laugh though, career-wise.

Jen Lindley? Jen Nasty!

There was a cast reunion photo shoot in EW 4-5 years ago and Williams looks less-than-thrilled to be there.

When I try to watch it now I simply can’t understand why I liked it in the first place as it’s intensely annoying to watch. That said, even in the original run I was actively hate-watching by whatever season had Pacey as some kind of wannabe Gordon Gekko! 🙄

The first two seasons are pretty entertaining, as teen drama shows go. Season 3 isn't terrible, but it's less consistent. I like episodes from the college seasons, but it just stopped being that compelling at a certain point, even if I sometimes enjoyed seeing the characters again when I did tune in.

After Season 3, you do not want to go back. Once they get into college, the show is awful and unwatchable. The episodes with Beau Bridges' son are dreadful. I bailed midway through Season 4 and came back for the series finale, which flashed forward several years and was a decent wrap up of the show.

I remember squealing like a little girl when Pacey and Joey finally got together.

Who is the chick in front of Holmes in the reunion photo?

Dawson's parents, JWS and Mary-Margaret Humes, were 'blindsided' and 'hurt' not to be part of the reunion photoshoot.

the girl who played Jack's crazy sister, Andi

[quote]Who is the chick in front of Holmes in the reunion photo?

Maybe it's Meredith Monroe, who played Andie? She was gay Jack's sister

Van Der Bottom was the cumdump for half the "Varsity Blues" cast.

Michelle Williams mentioned the actress who played Grams in a speech she gave at an award show.

She also had a reunion with Joshua Jackson on Oscar night.

Here's some of Michelle's tribute:

R4, this gay boy always had Jen as his favourite back in the day too. She also made perfect sense as the character who would become best friends with the gay boy at school.

I do agree with R8. Even at the time I was rolling my eyes at the show, but also couldn’t stop watching.

I liked it when Jen was friends with that girl at school that hated them all and ended up drowning in the marina. Abby?

I think the first two seasons were the best. Season 3 started to get boring and by the time Season 5 came around, I started tuning out. But I watched the series finale.

Why was Meredith Monroe written out of the series? Did the producers get mad at her because they discovered she had been pulling a Gabrielle Carteris the whole time?

Joey was really not a likable character, particularly starting in Season 3. She was so judgmental and opinionated. Honestly, I think she was bitchier than Brenda in 90210.

Should Dawson have ended up with Jen at the end instead of Jen dying? Jen was his first girlfriend, and Jen eventually did take his virginity. But in the series finale, it’s like Dawson’s past romance with Jen is never acknowledged.

[Quote] Williamson was besotted with Katie Holmes (in a non-sexual way, of course) - I remember an interview where he gushed about her as if she was some budding screen goddess.

Then why did Kevin make Joey such a bitch? She was no Gale Weathers that's for sure.

Also any gossip on Greg Berlanti?

[quote]Van Der Bottom was the cumdump for half the "Varsity Blues" cast.

Wait - what?

Dawson's dad had no business being that fucking hot. I was so pissed off that they killed him off.

I can't remember watching it much/at all when they went to college, I did watch the final episode though.

I remember seeing once that the woman that played Jen's 'Grams' was actually something crazy like 40 just in old person makeup and it blew my mind.

R22 Wow, you really were drunk, weren't you? Don't worry, you were great.

Like the 90210 cast and The O.C. cast, the actors on the show had legit chemistry with each other. Episodes like the horror movie riff from the first season are fun because it does actually feel like they enjoy being around each other.

The show also understand about not taking itself too seriously. The O.C. went even further in that direction. One Tree Hill was more blandly earnest in comparison.

Did JWS (Mitch) ever come out in real life?

R20 Correction - JWS took Dawson's virginity.

I still quote some of Abby's lines.

"I make a cancer joke and Joey gets mad, or I make a crazy joke and Andie gets upset, or I make a joke about ho-bags and Jen starts humping the couch."

R21 I always wonder if Berlanti was a little Brian Singer-y - not that I have proof but he sure liked to surround himself with pretty boys.

R15 Now that's Hawt!

Say what you want, but this series had one of the best, most satisfying series finales ever.

Jack's story was pretty significant for the times, and heartbreaking.

Kerr Smith helped me realize I loved men.

R20 Jen didn’t really like Dawson so much (he’s not a likeable character in general) as she liked his relative innocence and inexperience and gratitude for her attention at the time. It was the kind of change she thought she wanted when they slept together—a virgin Nice Guy with a chivalry complex who saw her as some kind of exotic glamourous Fay Wray rather than just another generic trampy inner-city rebel schoolgirl.

Notice that while they remain friendly into their College years, they aren’t close friends or hung up on each other like some of the other characters. They’re very neutral and distant in terms of having any type of relationship. So it was more a case of one-and-done quick-burning teen lust for them.

R29 i have wondered that too but Greg doesn't seem to have a sleazy rep compared to other gay showrunners. Although there's always some joke made about the Arrowverse actors bending over for him...

Joshua Jackson looks great in that pic at R16.

R28 - haha, I'd forgotten that line, and yes, it was very funny. I loved it too!

[quote]Joey was really not a likable character,

It got really bad by the fifth season, I think it was. Remember when she was walking around all: "Dawson, I have [italic]IT[/italic]!" (whatever 'it' was meant to be), and then did stupid things like go to the hospital where her mugger was dying and sing "Close to You" or something to him.

I hate it when shows take a character and try to make them seem like this perfect, otherworldly person - it always makes the character incredibly unlikable.

That acceptance speech at R17 makes me like Michelle Williams, who I generally find aloof, more. I had forgotten she was from a rough background and that was a very sweet tribute. Oh all of the Dawson’s kids, Joshua Jackson has the best rep in Wilmington where they filmed, followed by Katie Holmes. I have a condo down there and JVB was my next door neighbor during the run of the show. He did not have a good rep in downtown Wilmington, but that’s because he was standoffish more than being a real asshole. Locals got the impression early on that he felt he was destined for bigger things than a teen show filmed in a southern backwater and he never really overcame that.

I’ll also say that I think JVB was wise with his money. He owned two of the best condos in downtown Wilmington which he bought early own and held on to, if I understand correctly, until the market was at its all-time high.

He’s not rolling in money from those two sales but he certainly doubled his money, and both we’re worth in the high six-figures.

Grams wasn't havin it.

Isn't Eddie Mills (Ty) gay IRL?

[quote] I have a condo down there and JVB was my next door neighbor during the run of the show. He did not have a good rep in downtown Wilmington,

I remember listening to the DVD commentary with two of the producers. They were talking over a scene with Mark Matkevich, who played a bad guy.

They said, "Mark had a really great rep in town. He was very likable and easy to get along with. Funny, how the characters who were the worst people on the show were the best in real life. And visa versa."

I definitely took that as a slam on Van Der Beek. And, clearly, others.

I remember being really invested in the show by the time one of the seasons ended with Joey leaving on Pacey's boat for the summer. I was really happy for that twist.

But I quickly tuned out once they went to college. The show had lost its magic.

I tuned in again to watch the finale. But I took that as a fuck you to Dawson. Joey is with your best friend. And you are all alone--in a cheap motel in North Carolina pretending it's Beverly Hills and those scrawny windmill palms are California.

John Wesley Ship was one of the first white men on television to make me feel funny. If the rumors are true, then James Van is one lucky ho.

I don't believe the John Wesley Ship / James Van Der Beek rumors at all.

That was quintessential Datalounge fangirl fiction.

If I'd played Dawson, they would have had an impossible time getting me out of Shipp's trailer.

And the rumor about JVB and JWS was going around well before Datalounge was a gleam in your momma's eye.

I remember the women there making jokes about the relationship on Mighty Big TV (later TWOP), but it did have more of a ‘laugh at the homosexuals’ vibe to it than a fantasy pairing angle.

[quote]Dawson's dad had no business being that fucking hot. I was so pissed off that they killed him off.

The way they killed him off was pretty funny. He’s driving home after getting ice cream for the wife. He’s eating his on a cone, except the scoop rolls off and and he bends down to what? Pick it up off the floor?!

It’s while he’s distracted that the crash happens.

^ wasn’t he singing into his cone too? I feel like I remember that too.

R36 if only Josh could look that great in the Fatal Attraction series.

R37 Joey was insufferable before that. She treated Pacey's sister like crap for no reason.

R48 it's right up there with a dog eating Dan's heart transplant on One Tree Hill.....so stupid 🤣

"One Tree Hill" made "Dawson's Creek" look like Henrik Ibsen.

The worst was the episode they let Chad Michael Murray write. It, inexplicably, took place in the 1930s and had all the characters playing every cliche imaginable.

Kerr's shweet tiddays..

Kerr was so innocent looking when he first started in Dawson's Crack

Kerr's body was even more "shweet," r51, when he played Ryder Hughes on As the World Turns. I couldn't find a pic, unfortunately.

Here ya go, R54.

This show really went off the rails in the later seasons...as seems to happen with shows like it, as the actors age. At some point it was no longer an ensemble youth drama; it was several different shows jammed together, with characters who knew each other but rarely interacted. Remember when Pacey kept exploring new careers, and his bosses/co-workers were always people who had been on Twin Peaks? A shame they didn't keep it up and have him as an apprentice woodworker under the beady eye of Catherine E. Coulson.

R51 they did what? I knew i made the right choice to stop watching after season 4. Oh and fuck the creator too.

Thanks, r55. I was glued to the set every time Ryder was on camera.

I just wanted to slap Joey - she was like a sneak preview of everything wrong with Gilmore Girls.

Pretty White Kids with Problems!

If the rumors are true, Kevin Williamson was fucking JVDB for the first season or two, and then JWS was....and it got very intense. Someone walked in on them on set just as JWS was nutting a load into James.

When I’d flip by the show it seemed they were all way too serious for high schoolers. Was there any levity? Was Pacey the wit?

R61 Besides, Van Der Beek was a total horseface!

[quote] Was Pacey the wit?

No, he was the Witter.

R64 well played 🤣

My favourite episode was the one with Dawson and his 100 load weekend. Instant classic.

Did JVDB put out for Kevin Williamson for the role of Dawson?

What did they do all that time off camera in East bumfuck North Carolina?

R59 - yes! Perfect observation, that’s exactly what she was like.

R67 and more importantly, was he the only one?

Pacey turned out to be packing more than anyone else....and he looks better at 50 than horsefaced Jimmy.

Josh was a big ho and slept with half the gals and guys in Wilmington…allegedly

I remember Josh had a big boner in one of the scenes with his sister…I was surprised no one caught it in editing

R71, these people are in their early 40s

Katie lost her virginity to JJ and also slept with JVDB

R37 many of Katie's characters suffer from the fact that no other characters confront her on her bullshit and treat her like the perfect doe-eyed mart yr next door with only the purest of intentions and most vulnerable angsty tortured of ascended Real souls. No-one has ever suffered more chastely or felt more uniquely or thought more deeply than Katie's adorable yet spunky and eloquent characters (is this lanky pouty brunette Ange Jolie typecasting syndrome? Like the opposite of what Sydney Sweeney has?)

The only time it's somewhat worked for Katie imo is in the movies 'Go!' and 'Disturbing Behaviour', where she played a whiny pissy slacker checkout girl/annoying rave pillhead and a bitchy slutty Goth girl respectively. In 'Go!' especially, a couple of other cooler older savvier characters we meet along the way call her character out for being a hypocrite moody do-nothing who lets others take her Ls, and she does seem to get over herself and lighten up by the end of the movie. I was interested in her character and sympathetic toward her for once in this film.

[Quote] Josh was a big ho and slept with half the gals and guys in Wilmington

I think one of them was Brittany Daniel. Her whole arc as Jennifer's sister didn't really amount to anything unfortunately.

R72 R73 Are you talking about Joshua Jackson or a character called Josh? What sisters did Pacey have, I don't remember any siblings?

Pacey had an older sister played by Sasha Alexander.

Oh okay, fuck I don't remember that!

R78 fr I forgot that Pacey had a sister, too. I thought it was just him & Doug who were the Witter kids.

Btw Andie/Pacey forever, fuck Joey/Pacey and the boring fans of that couple. Andie & Pacey were a breath of fresh air, a genuinely tender and deep and flawed couple who meant the world. They were each other's first, best friends, perfect complements and soulmates--everything that Dawson & Joey wrongly assumed and proclaimed they were as a couple.

Of fuck! I even forgot about Pacey's gay brother!!!!!

^Officer Doug arrest my case!

Have to disagree strongly with you, OP. The best season was 3 when they finally realized Pacey was a more compelling character than Dawson and had better chemistry with Joey. The college seasons were horrendous, but the back end of S6 wasn’t too bad because they started to bring back to the core for the finale. I think they had a great finale, a time jump would have been a better S6. One thing I did laugh about rewatching the finale in that they were supposed to like 5-7 years in the future, but Joey had the same hairstyle/highlights and Jewelry from S6 and Pacey wore the same bracelet. They totally forgot to change up styles and were very vague about what all their relationships were at that point.

[quote]What did they do all that time off camera in East bumfuck North Carolina?

[quote]Oh all of the Dawson’s kids, Joshua Jackson has the best rep in Wilmington where they filmed, followed by Katie Holmes. I have a condo down there and JVB was my next door neighbor during the run of the show. He did not have a good rep in downtown Wilmington, but that’s because he was standoffish more than being a real asshole. Locals got the impression early on that he felt he was destined for bigger things than a teen show filmed in a southern backwater and he never really overcame that.

I could never understand how Wilmington remained so provincial despite all these shows been filmed there. Even now it's still a relatively conservative place.

[quote]What did they do all that time off camera in East bumfuck North Carolina?

Wilmington is actually a very charming city with great places to eat and a beautiful live theater. And Wrightsville Beach is one of the most expensive zip-codes in the country.

My old boss did pr for the show and she said JVB was a total asshole. She said MW was aloof, I think trying to get emancipated at the time. KH was nice but ambitious, she loved JJ.

Pacey was the token big-dick guy - Dawson had a tiny little boydick.

My friend and I went to see Michelle do an off-Broadway play in the summer of 1998 right after her first season of DC. We met her afterwards and she was really nice. She was good in the show, too. We didn't talk much about the Creek. And I knew Mary Beth Peil, as I had worked with her once, and I raved about her, so Michelle and I hit it off.

[quote] One thing I did laugh about rewatching the finale in that they were supposed to like 5-7 years in the future, but Joey had the same hairstyle/highlights and Jewelry from S6 and Pacey wore the same bracelet. They totally forgot to change up styles.

And even if we disregard the 'Five Years Later' asspull, the jump in style/fashion between 1998-2003 alone is immense! People dressed and presented so differently between those years. No way do those young hip popular Gen X characters look the same after the Millennium and N!ne-Eleven. Maybe if they had been middle-aged/Boomers.

Another thing I hated was that Jen's short College hairstyle went away in the finale. I get that she was sick and all, but she looked so cool with shorter hair. It really suited the character and Michelle, it made her look more glamourous and mature. She also had a short cut in late Season 2/early Season 3, around the time Abby died.

Abby died!!! Thanks for the spoiler alert R90!

If JVdB really was an asshole and really is gay/mfm, he certainly made those straight kissing scenes look real and conveyed sensitivity during them. He can obviously act worth a damn, though I do believe he's likely too much of a pain to work with.

[quote]Jack's story was pretty significant for the times, and heartbreaking.

It was groundbreaking for the time, but I always resented how Kerr clearly loathed playing gay and did everything he could in interviews to make it known he wasn't gay IRL and how much he loved pussy.

I still remember him going on late night shows bragging about women hitting on him, joking about turning Jack bi or straight again, or his demands to have no more than one same-sex kiss in a season written into his contract.

Jack was originally cast to be a romantic rival for Joey's affections, but Kevin Williamson did a 180 mid-season 2 and decided to make him gay.

I think, deep down, Kerr resented that, but chose to stay with the role because the show was a success and it was his meal ticket to continue working in the industry.

He played gay with thinly veiled disgust, with his nose pinched and turned upward, while collecting a huge paycheck and reaping the benefits of playing a groundbreaking role on a hit TV show.

Joshua Jackson is Pacey to so many people, but to this idiot late 90s kid he's just Captain Charlie Conway now and forever.

Kerr was never attractive to me unfortunately, so i never got as into the gay character in this show as i would’ve hoped to. In fact, i don’t think it mattered as much if I was attracted to him or not but as said above, the actor clearly played him with disdain. At one point he was dating that blond guy with glasses (the one who got gay bashed), and at the time it seemed so obvious to me that that actor was talking it much more seriously than Kerr.

Deputy Doug on the other hand DID do it for me, very much. We only find out he’s gay in the finale, don’t we? Or am I misremembering?

[quote] At one point he was dating that blond guy with glasses (the one who got gay bashed), and at the time it seemed so obvious to me that that actor was talking it much more seriously than Kerr.

That actor (David Monahan) is gay.

Pacey always joked that Doug was gay, just to tease him, but it wasn't confirmed until the finale.

R91 sorry, were you doing a watch for the first time?

It's not a death that has a major impact on the latter part of the show, only season 2 & 3. Everyone forgets about Abby and moves on from her pretty damn fast, sadly. Imo they shouldn't have killed her off, she was camp deliciousness.

Anyone who poses a question like "Who was the top and who was the bottom" is idiotic beyond redemption.

Josh is a low hangin man!

Argh, even now in this recent interview, the way Kerr talks about the historical impact of that storyline...you can sense his underlying distaste when he talks about kissing a dude.

Saying it was "intense" and he "had to do it," just makes it sound like he was on an episode of Fear Factor being forced to eat maggots or buffalo testicles.

Sucks to hear Josh Jackson was also a prick for teasing him about the kissing.

I get it was a different time, but 20 years later, he still can only talk about it's affect on him, instead of reflecting more on what the character and representation meant to gays kids growing up during that time.

[Quote] Btw Andie/Pacey forever, fuck Joey/Pacey and the boring fans of that couple.

Yes! They were the superior couple.

[Quote] Jack was originally cast to be a romantic rival for Joey's affections, but Kevin Williamson did a 180 mid-season 2 and decided to make him gay.

How often does that happen? The last one i know of is True Blood and the actor had to be recast.

[Quote] Everyone forgets about Abby and moves on from her pretty damn fast, sadly. Imo they shouldn't have killed her off, she was camp deliciousness.

Yes, they should have kept Abby around or not kill her off so soon. It's kind of sad that DC and Freddy vs Jason is all Monica's known for because i don't think she was a terrible actress. I also read that she had to buy her own ticket to attend the DC panel at Paleyfest.

I've never seen it. I know it's about an aspiring film maker who idolizes Steven Spielberg of all people. I can't imagine being that basic.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R104 there's another one where they both look like death warmed over.

I never watched the show, and so my only contribution to this thread can be a video clip of Suri's mom talking to sexy drug dealing Santa Timothy Olyphant in GO.

Timothy will always be Mickey from Scream 2 for me. They just don't make them like that anymore....or the casting department's gone way down since the 90s.

^ younger actors of today are rarely sexy or as attractive as they were 20 years ago.

R103 the way I took Dawson’s obsession with SS is that he’s very emotionally immature and sheltered and wideeyed for his age and doesn’t get out much (a cringefail hiki babygirl in today’s parlance...I can relate), so to him those sorts of films still evoke a childlike sense of awe & wonder in him where to his peer group they just seem kiddie and bombastic or over the top and uncool.

Did the little seaside town Dawson lived in even have a retrospective movie theater for him to watch old movies at? I think I remember some Halloween double feature showing plot line, but was that just because of the holiday?

R110 they had an episode with the movie theater closing and the last movie screened was The Last Picture Show because of course. So subtle.

[quote] [R103] the way I took Dawson’s obsession with SS is that he’s very emotionally immature and sheltered and wideeyed for his age and doesn’t get out much (a cringefail hiki babygirl in today’s parlance...I can relate), so to him those sorts of films still evoke a childlike sense of awe & wonder in him where to his peer group they just seem kiddie and bombastic or over the top and uncool.

Well, you know the character was only 15 when the show started, so being immature, wide eyed and sheltered would kind of follow for a young teenager who is from a small town.

Pacey was surprised to find Officer Doug stripping for the ladies and not men

R113 honestly ANYTHING but that fucking Joey-the-singing-waitress arc

Thank you, r109. That makes sense.

R51 correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Chad Michael Murray in 'Dawson's Creek' too? Either him or an actor who looks a lot like him played Jen's College boyfriend iirc.

Chad Michael Murray was in Dawson's for one season.

I think Jensen Ackles was on too. Those were the horrible seasons, I so I didn’t pay them much mind.

[Quote] ^ younger actors of today are rarely sexy or as attractive as they were 20 years ago.

I agree, but i also meant Mickey was a fun villain and complete over the top. I just watched Scream 5 the other night and it left me completely underwhelmed. But i just assumed it's because i'm old.

[Quote] I think Jensen Ackles was on too. Those were the horrible seasons, I so I didn’t pay them much mind.

Both Jensen and Chad were on DC. I think they're friends too?

The WB/CW was the teen soap network then became the genre show and DC network and now is becoming a network for remakes with an aging demographic.

Let's not forget the Dawson's Creek spinoff, Young Americans

When you name your main character "Will Krudski," it's as though you know the show is doomed.

The person above talking about how JVDB wasn't liked in Wilmington reminded me, I was told that he was unpopular with the writers and crew because his contract had a lot of outs to do films and when he got one it messed up the show's filming schedule and inconvenienced them.

it was probably The Rules of Attraction

I forget they tried to make JVDB happen with Varsity Blues and Rules of Attraction with his weak acting. He was funny in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back though probably because he got a chance to mock Dawson's Creek.

He was pretty good playing the asshole jock in Angus

R120 and they're off to a great start with Walker for the 50+ demographic. A lot of the CW remakes were shit because of the writers they have. Like I don't understand how Julie Plec managed to get several spin-offs from TVD.

JVDB was great in Don't Trust the B in Apartment 23 playing a fictional version of himself, but by then he had grown up a lot and had a sense of humor about himself.

[quote]It was groundbreaking for the time, but I always resented how Kerr clearly loathed playing gay and did everything he could in interviews to make it known he wasn’t gay IRL and how much he loved pussy. [quote] I still remember him going on late night shows bragging about women hitting on him, joking about turning Jack bi or straight again, or his demands to have no more than one same-sex kiss in a season written into his contract. [quote] Jack was originally cast to be a romantic rival for Joey’s affections, but Kevin Williamson did a 180 mid-season 2 and decided to make him gay. [quote] I think, deep down, Kerr resented that, but chose to stay with the role because the show was a success and it was his meal ticket to continue working in the industry. [quote] He played gay with thinly veiled disgust, with his nose pinched and turned upward, while collecting a huge paycheck and reaping the benefits of playing a groundbreaking role on a hit TV show.

Don’t forget the award he accepted from GLAAD while doing everything he could to minimize his admittedly groundbreaking character’s impact for gay youth. It sounds like reading Sarah Bunting's epic takedown rant about him from Television Without Pity will be as much of a balm to your soul as it was to mine.

Light the torches and alert the villagers.

Takes me back..

Haha, R128! She really didn’t hold back there! That was great!

Takes me back - Mighty Big TV and then TWoP we’re some of the first places I discovered when we got internet.

I remember someone did like a real time blog of fan fiction about Joey and Pacey time on the boat over the summer. I miss those days of the internet.

I know, R8, I tried too, but the dialogue was just… ugh.

[Quote] JVDB was great in Don't Trust the B in Apartment 23 playing a fictional version of himself, but by then he had grown up a lot and had a sense of humor about himself.

Don't Trust The B is underrated and didn't deserve to be cancelled.

I've seen a lot worse performances by tv actors trying to make it in movies than VDB in Varsity Blues and Rules of Attraction. VDB underplays things; that's his style.

R135 Honey, he can't underplay anything.

What was the tea of choice at craft services on the set?

Earl Grey

Dawson’s true love was never Joey, it was his career and Spielberg.

Back when DC was on everyone (well, the media) seem convinced that as soon as it ended Katie Holmes was going to be the next big thing. She was the It Girl for a while hard as it is to remember. Like Mischa Barton a few years later. The press just loved her.

Then, not long after the show ended after getting a few good roles she hooked up with Tom Cruise (a [mis]calculated career move) and the media seemed to turn on both of them. Her career lost steam and she never regained it. Whatever inexplicable spell she had on the media ended and she has not done one thing of note since.

Kerr Smith has done several interviews in the last few years about how he LOVED being so trailblazing and was so PROUD to be part of such an important social storyline.

Either he's changed or he's aware the world has -- and I'm certain it's the latter.

He was kicked off Twitter a couple of years ago for something anti-vax.

Kerr had smelling cookies face anyway.

[Quote] Then, not long after the show ended after getting a few good roles she hooked up with Tom Cruise (a [mis]calculated career move) and the media seemed to turn on both of them. Her career lost steam and she never regained it. Whatever inexplicable spell she had on the media ended and she has not done one thing of note since.

Katie lost momentum after being replaced in Batman Begins. I still don't understand what happened there....she was fine in the role.

I think the best way for Katie Holmes to make a career comeback is to star in a female Sherlock Holmes movie!!

[quote]Katie lost momentum after being replaced in Batman Begins. I still don't understand what happened there....she was fine in the role.

Katie starred with Aaron Eckhart in Thank You For Smoking. He was cast in The Dark Knight. Tom, feeling he and Katie had been too 'pal-ly' when they filmed together before, talked her out of returning for The Dark Knight.

Or so the rumor goes.

R133 the late 1990s were still mired in the trend of hyper-stylised Whedon/Tarant!no-esque zingy dialogue, where absolutely everyone onscreen must be witty and quippy and have an answer for everything.

I didn't think the original cast were very well-cast, unlike the superbly cast The OC, where everyone was great (except the interchangeable Rachel Bilson who was merely good) even bad actors like Mischa Barton who perfectly fit her character.

It's appears the producers eventually realized this too by the show's end when they switched Joey's one true love from Dawson to Pacey.

Though Katie isn't a good actress I still prefer her to Maggie Gyllenhaal in TDK films. Gyllenhaal just wasn't attractive enough.

AnnE, as Catwoman not Rachel, made a much better substitute for both of them in the final one. I wonder when she was cast. Before or after doing that impersonation of Katie on SNL? She seems to have walked off with her career anyway; and that's for the best.

Can you imagine Katie in something like Brokeback Mountain?

[quote] Though Katie isn't a good actress I still prefer her to Maggie Gyllenhaal in TDK films. Gyllenhaal just wasn't attractive enough.

R149 I took Katie far more seriously and believably as a cop/attorney or whatever Rachel Dawes was meant to be than I did Maggie. Something about Maggie looks and feels too offbeat to do normal person roles straight-ahead albeit dark blockbuster movies.

Katie had better chemistry with Christian & Gary Olden, too, and also with Cillian Murphy.

R149, I could see Katie in Hathaway’s role, but not Michelle’s role. But I think she’d make Anne’s character much more unlikable.

Remember when Joey and her skank of a sister opened a bed and breakfast, it was a total shit hole .

Maggie should have played Two-Face since you would believe that heinous puss of hers had somehow melted without the use of any prosthetics.

Both Katie and Maggie are known for their melted-wax faces. Maybe they should play sisters

I'd heard that it was Katie and the Couch Jumper's antics at the premiere, where they were far more concerned with promoting the great passion of their heterosexual marriage than the movie they were attending, that resulted in her not being invited back for the sequel.

R155 I can see Nolan's ego being bruised by that.

Katie Holmes was more beautiful and charismatic, but I thought Maggie Gyllenhaal gave by far the better performance. I actually believed Gyllenhaal's version was an ADA, and believed in her character's history with Bruce/Bale. Holmes was the weakest link in Nolan's first Batman film. She was just giving the same performance she always gave.

[Quote] I think the best way for Katie Holmes to make a career comeback is to star in a female Sherlock Holmes movie!!

There already is one on Netflix with MBB and Henry Cavill.

[Quote] Katie starred with Aaron Eckhart in Thank You For Smoking. He was cast in The Dark Knight. Tom, feeling he and Katie had been too 'pal-ly' when they filmed together before, talked her out of returning for The Dark Knight. Or so the rumor goes.

[Quote] I'd heard that it was Katie and the Couch Jumper's antics at the premiere, where they were far more concerned with promoting the great passion of their heterosexual marriage than the movie they were attending, that resulted in her not being invited back for the sequel.

Maybe it was both?

[Quote] I didn't think the original cast were very well-cast, unlike the superbly cast The OC, where everyone was great (except the interchangeable Rachel Bilson who was merely good) even bad actors like Mischa Barton who perfectly fit her character.

I think Rachel was the right choice for Summer and she was a better actress than Mischa, who looked the part but her acting was shaky at times.

Are you high? Rachel Bilson is a horrendous actress. That's not an opinion. It's clear to anyone with a functioning brain stem.

R159 calm your tits. I said Rachel was good as Summer.

Yeah, I heard you. I don't understand you, but I heard you.

R159, whose a better actress, Rachel Bilson as Summer or Charisma Carpenter as Cordelia?

[Quote] Yeah, I heard you. I don't understand you, but I heard you.

That girl’s last name is to close to bilious for me, old Hollywood would have renamed her.

R162 not exactly sure that's a fair comparison. Cordelia Chase was a great character who grew over the span of 8 seasons on Buffy/Angel. I can't see Rachel pulling it off.

Bilson was good as the kinda crabby JAP second love interest / best friend but a million actresses could've played that role.

If any of the other actors were recast it would've changed the tone of the show completely.

R162 Rachel's problem was that her character was a distraction from the actual intended plot of The O.C., which was to have Seth and Ryan fucking as much as possible.

That clip at R114 is the worst thing I have seen committed to television since Ann Romano's 36th birthday monologue.

R166 the brooding main character and snarky sidekick has been done before. As long as they get the chemistry right then it doesn't matter who you cast.

Kerr had a kind of snotty, bitchy quality that made him seem much more gay than the other two male leads. Seem thing happened on Dynasty. The 2nd Steven seemed much more gay than the first one, even though the Jack Coleman was much more uncomfortable with playing a gay character than Al Corley.

It was a smart move to replace that Nellie Olson character with Abby as the bitchy mean girl achetype. That first character just didn't work. Too nasal and one note.

[quote] a distraction from the actual intended plot of The O.C., which was to have Seth and Ryan fucking as much as possible.

R167 throw Johnny Harper in as a third and I’m sold🤤

I love how Seth pushes his morning wood into Ryan’s crotch area!

That 1998 period between when Dawson's Creek premiered in the spring, and then Felicity and Charmed that fall is a memorable one for me. As a closeted 12/13 year old, DC and Felicity, especially, helped me to deal with all of the ~feelings~ I was having and at least gave me some other sensitive people to relate to, even if they were only tv characters.

Dawson's Creek, Felicity, Ally McBeal, Gilmore Girls, even Sex and the City are all unbearable to me now...

I can only manage Sabrina the Teenage Witch.

R175 the only way I watch those shows is to overlook all the privilege and whining with deliberate and selective mindset. They can still be enjoyable for the camp and the nostalgia comfort in some ways, but damn are the snotty entitled characters annoying.

I'm not going to complain about anyone else's acting abilities when linking a clip contained Maya Rudolph.

The character Grams was always slut-shaming poor Jen, when Jen's friends weren't.

Why was Capeside so puritanical? It seemed like a secular affluent middleclass area to live in so many ways, but then Jack gets bashed and Jen gets painted with a scarlet letter. It made no sense.

Does anyone know what this was from? Has TC ever done musicals or dancing? KH did Broadway, right?

R179 Was this Katie’s Lady Diana at the opera house moment?

Christ that's embarrassing R179

I don't think KH has ever been on Broadway, but she did STAR in her Ohio high school production of "Damn Yankees"

“Katie Holmes is back on the New York stage in Anna Ziegler's The Wanderers. Having previously appeared on Broadway in Dead Accounts and All My Sons, this marks her off-Broadway debut. She sat down with Broadway.com Editor-in-Chief Paul Wontorek on The Broadway Show to talk about what inspired her return to the theater”

R178 Seventh Heaven and those purity ring/chastity promises were getting big in the later 90s. I was born in 80, and the messaging around sex was very carefully curated and presented to younger audiences because the science was finally getting accepted and talked about.

Not to mention she's a grandma to her wayward big city granddaughter in a small judgemental, puritanically rooted, historically and in its contemporary context.

Jens past triggering little Dawson's ego was hard for me to watch BACK THEN, in addition to the dialogue being beyond ridiculously pretentious, if it weren't for Pacey I wouldn't have made it through a full season.

^ rooted *town*

One thing I’m surprised at is that Katie Holmes is aging badly. Literally right after marrying Cruise she started to change. Michelle Williams is aging better and I never found her attractive.

Katie was very pretty and cute but never a great beauty. Definitely right for a girl-next-door role. I agree, the drama with Cruise aged her. Michelle looked like the fast and troubled girl from a rough background she portrayed on DC. Honestly the casting was pretty spot-on in that the actors looks and demeanor matched their characters personalities. Most teen soaps don't put much care in that casting.

Rural New England isn't as religious as The South or Midwest but it can be conservative, cliquey, racist and narrow-minded. Though more passive-aggressive and politically correct than overt. You probably won't get bashed but rather not invited to parties or denied a job promotion. Homophobia and misogyny aren't always tied to religion, patriarchal mentality still has a lot of baggage.

[Quote] The character Grams was always slut-shaming poor Jen, when Jen's friends weren't.

They really did put Jen through the ringer and just to make it more depressing, let's kill her off.

[Quote] Seventh Heaven and those purity ring/chastity promises were getting big in the later 90s. I was born in 80, and the messaging around sex was very carefully curated and presented to younger audiences because the science was finally getting accepted and talked about.

What's funny about 7th Heaven is they were going to have Matt and Mary kiss in the first episode.

They never really explained Jen's exact reasoning for being an atheist, did they?

It basically seemed like a plot element that was there for her to have something to argue with about her grandmother.

"Okay, Grams, I'll go to church if you say the word penis."

-something to argue with her grandmother about.

If I got treated the way Jen did by everybody, I’d probably lose a lot faith too. Poor girl really just never caught a whole break.

I don’t know why they had to kill Jen off at the end. Other than dramatic effect, it was unnecessary. I liked the time jump, but there was an odd vibe to it. Like Jen and Joey were both living in NYC, but it didn’t seem like they knew much about each other’s current lives. Then they come together in Capeside and they’re like life long friends. Similarly with Pacey and Joey, like she moved not so far away and they never saw or spoke to her again.

Jen was a tragedy just waiting to unravel, she was never long for this world.

Jen was the Laura Palmer of Capeside

[quote]I don’t know why they had to kill Jen off at the end.

I thought I read somewhere that Michelle was so fed up with the show by the end and ready to start her career in Hollywood that she asked to be killed off, to prevent any chance of there ever being a reunion or reboot down the line where she'd be enticed to come back.

It was a way to decisively close that chapter of her acting career and begin anew.

Not sure if that's true or not.

[Quote] Katie was very pretty and cute but never a great beauty. Definitely right for a girl-next-door role.

I think Katie pulled off the punk rocker look quite well in Disturbing Behaviour. I also like that stupid Teaching Mrs Tingle movie she did with Helen Mirren.

R196, I could see that being true. On the flip side she did say a couple of times recently she’d come back as a ghost or something. Sure, it could just be bullshit, but you never know. Even after successful films, most actresses/actors from iconic tv shows are still mostly remembered for them. I actually feel most tv stars are more beloved than film stars. Look at Betty White, Lucille Ball, Jennifer Aniston and even someone like Kirstie Alley.

What is the equivalent show today for teens? ‘Euphoria’?

Maybe. I think "13 Reasons Why" was probably a bit more of a match when it was still airing.

R174 idk if you've noticed this, but the pendulum swung in teen soaps from super pretentious, sentimental, gushy, miserable, politically-correct and puritanically-touchy teens in the 1990s to brittle, cruel, vacant, phobic, proudly trashy and brutally promiscuous ones in the 2000s (am thinking particularly of the original 'Gossip Girl' and also 'Skins' here).

Why the violent sea change in youth culture so quick? Was it just a difference in generational personality between X & Y, or Millennium culture shock? And has YA settled now into a middle-ground, or are we just continually swinging back and forth between the two extremes?

Van Der Beek was an asshole and was hated by the other condo owners at the developed he stayed at.

He expected the property management company to give him exclusive access to amenties like the roof deck by banning all the other residents when he wanted to use it.

A friend who worked at a restaurant said that even Joshua Jackson pulled a "Do you know who I am," at a busy time at the restaurant - she told him it would still be a 45 minute wait for a table.

I just read Katherine Heigl gave a good audition for Jen. And i can sort of see her in that role, but i'm glad she ended up on Roswell instead. I think Jason played an asshole jock in the first season before doing Roswell.

Michelle said her feelings were hurt that she was killed off, so I don’t think it was her choice. But they may have assumed she would never want to come back

R128 Kerr should have joined the "Str8 Actors Afraid of the Gay" along with Adam Brody, who apparently complained that the first season of The O.C was "too gay" in matters of Seth/Ryan - effectively killing the only interesting relationship in the show.

Thanks Adam.

R205 Adam said what?? Seth/Ryan would have been a disaster. Seth is a self involved little shit who had no respect for other people's boundaries.

R206 Seth just needed some regular spanking/fucking.

R207 or Seth needed to start smoking weed a lot sooner.

Monica Keena quit the show because she missed her then-boyfriend in NYC.

Now she just gets high with Edward Furlong.

Those sluts were fucking everyone

It was always interesting that every season there would be recurring characters who would be vital to the plot, but never seen or referred to again after the season ended.

And her career went with it

[Quote] Those sluts were fucking everyone

It's the natural order.

Remember when Shelley from Twin Peaks crushed Dawson's movie dreams?

"It's a preposterous soap opera about a bunch of teenagers who talk too much."

R212 Monica will always have Freddy Vs Jason.

The whole thing would have gone so much better if Dawson and Pacey had been giving each other brojobs from the start.

Dawson was prettier, therefore Pacey must have had the larger cock.

Instead of BS over Joey, we could have watched Pacey take Dawson's cherry - clumsily and with much (Dawson) tears, of course.

In one of the gossip threads, someone said that Edward Furlong pimps Keena out for drugs.

R217 I want to say i'm shocked but...

[quote]The whole thing would have gone so much better if Dawson and Pacey had been giving each other brojobs from the start.

I'll never forget the episode—this was in one of the middle seasons—when Dawson and Pacey are having some friend bonding time after a difficult period, and the song playing in the background is a cover of "The Air That I Breathe." So, during a dialogue-free portion of the scene, we hear the singer confiding, "Making love to you has made me peaceful, warm and tired." The laughter all over the snarkier corners of the internet can be still be heard echoing more than 20 years later. I wondered if the writers and producers of the show were in on the joke or not.

1998 is such a specific time in my mind. Pre-abundant cell phone use. No twitter.

Spill the tea?

I want to hear more about varsity blues, and how JVB was the go-to bottom. More details, please.

[Quote] and how JVB was the go-to bottom.

Any excuse to get away from that fivehead.