THEATRE GOSSIP #505: The Ethel Shutta? Fo Fuck's Sake Edition

Previous thread:

You could have done better, OP.

So who has actually seen Merrily?

Is it worth the hype?

My apologies. It was r563 in the previous thread who was going to get slap happy if Shutta wasn't acknowledged.

All this time, I've been calling her Ethel Crandall!

Ah, but...

My mother would tell me that her mother was good friends with Ethel Shutta in high school. Years and years ago I looked up Shutta and found she as born in 1896, and my grandmother was born in 1901. With five years separating them, a high school friendship seemed implausible unless Ethel was very stupid or my grandmother very advanced. It was always confusing to me until of course Ancestry revealed the truth that my grandmother shaved five years off her age. Funny how these things reveal themselves. (Also? Just a lit it sad.)

Argh, ^^just a little bit sad

My high school friend Mark wrote her and asked for a signed photo...which he received. I don't know why I didn't. I did write Fifi a couple of notes and got back a couple from her as well.

The way Ted Chapin tells it, Fifi was happy for any attention.

R8 Not any sadder than most delusional DataLoungers still thinking they can pass for 39.

The Botox and Grecian Formula aren't really working.

I wonder if DL Fave Sarah Porkalob will get cast in the new production of Here Lies Love?

Thank you, OP. I won't slap you. I'll avoid channeling Bonnie Franklin.

To the poster defending Gregg Barnes' lack of character statements in his Follies' designs because of diva personalities, do you think Florence Klotz didn't have to deal with diva personalities?

Florence Klotz was horrible to her assistants, r14, and where did I defend "Gregg Barnes' lack of character statements"?

Was Flossie Klotz a dyke?

See r14's signature, r16.

Who the fuck thought it would be great idea to put up a Broadway production of "Ohio State Murders"? What is being achieved here? Was it so important to get Audra onstage again that they couldn't resist this 75 minute lecture and dress it up as though it were an actual play? It is turgid, it is boring, it is another giant misfire for LCT foisted upon its members. And for God's sake, don't let Jesse Green review it unless you want to witness slobbering at its worst. Let Maya tackle it, since she'll obviously find great important things to say about this piece of crap.

Porkblob will be very lucky if she ever works again R12.

OHIO STATE MURDERS was an attempt to bring extremely well-regarded Black playwright Adrienne Kennedy to Broadway for the first time in her decades-long career. A laudable effort. But aspy producer Jeffery Richards chose the worst play for a commercial venue and thought hiring a star would help.

The torches are really out for Jesse Green.

Ramin performed the (American) national anthem tonight at the NY Rangers game, but him choosing the rear view video to post given the opticals seems wise… ironic he will be performing “Anthem” in Chess a week from now. He’s certainly in great voice and… form.

R3 Someone posted a review in the last thread.

[quote]But this still made me cry a little.

MARY!

Because I can't condone another FOLLIES thread, I would love to see Marty Short do a limited run of FORUM. I know he's old as hell now, but he's still spritely and impish and can sell that burlesque/vaudeville shtick like no one (aside from maybe Nathan!)

R25 - Marty is a gem, but I wonder if headlining a big musical may be a strain at this stage. He's co-hosting SNL with Steve Martin later this month. I'd love to see him on Broadway in something, though. You're absolutely right, he has that touch of burlesque and vaudeville that is a dying art and, yet, he never seems stale or old-fashioned to me.

This thread title makes some of the previous bad theatre gossip thread titles seem not all that bad.

R11 a wise man once said, "There's nothing wrong with being fifty... unless you're acting twenty."

[quote]Who the fuck thought it would be great idea to put up a Broadway production of "Ohio State Murders"? What is being achieved here? Was it so important to get Audra onstage again that they couldn't resist this 75 minute lecture and dress it up as though it were an actual play? It is turgid, it is boring, it is another giant misfire for LCT foisted upon its members.

Woke radicals don't give a crap about creating art or making a profit. All they care about is promoting their leftist agenda/propaganda.

You sound like a nut, R29.

Shutta?

I hardly know her!

I always get Ethel Shutta and Ethel Skakel mixed up

R31 Go away.

She pronounced it Shoo-tay.

She went away. Ethel was a passenger on the first run of the Santa Fe’s Super Chief which ran from Chicago to Los Angeles and which was known as “The Train of the Stars.” No doubt not least because Ethel was onboard.

I get tired of Audra until I hear her sing live. Her Carnegie Hall concert last week was terrific. Her "Rose's Turn" sparked rumors of her playing the lead in GYPSY sometime, but I hope not. Don't think the role suits her.

you all talking about "if' Merrily transfers. Sonia Friedman and Patrick Catullo (former mini-me of Voldemort's) are producing it with NYTW and public about it. No secret.. It would have to bomb big time not to be moving to Broadway

ITW will tour.

R34 I enjoy Audra but she'd need to come down out of the opera rafters for Gypsy.

Lea has received a blessing... from the Barbra.

I find this one odd.

I liked GROUNDHOG DAY very much on Bway, and Karl was terrific in it. But it didn't succeed here, and I didn't think it was a success in London, either. I'd have hoped they'd do some work on the book and especially the score, which was really uneven.

Wait- did Beanie ever hear from Streisand?

More importantly, did Julie Benko ever hear from Lainie Kazan?

[quote]I liked GROUNDHOG DAY very much on Bway, and Karl was terrific in it. But it didn't succeed here, and I didn't think it was a success in London, either. I'd have hoped they'd do some work on the book and especially the score, which was really uneven.

The best thing about "Groundhog Day" was the "curtain" used pre-show and at intermission.

I adore Audra in concert--she always creates such an amazing connection with her audiences.

I had to miss the Carnegie Hall one. I would love to hear her rendition of Rose's Turn!

The torches were out for Frank Rich...And Walter Kerr....And Clive Barnes. They all don't care about torches. And they shouldn't.

Clive Barnes absolutely should, r44.

Agree, r37. If Rose had that kind of voice, she would have "made it."

What a lovely opportunity for me to FINALLY play the Witch!

[quote]I get tired of Audra until I hear her sing live. Her Carnegie Hall concert last week was terrific. Her "Rose's Turn" sparked rumors of her playing the lead in GYPSY sometime, but I hope not. Don't think the role suits her.

I thought "Rose's Turn" was the low point of an otherwise great concert. It started out fine, but then Audra had the last half of the number transposed upwards considerably. I guess because she didn't want to sing all of that in a raw belt, but it sounded very weird in a low soprano key. And also, she really had to distort some of the vowels to sing some of those notes with the required volume, so unfortunately, the repeated "For me! For me!" really did sound like "For May! For May!"

R39, Groundhog Day was a big success in London during its Old Vic run-great reviews and sold out houses. Which made its subsequent Broadway drubbing all that baffling.

[quote] Groundhog Day was a big success in London during its Old Vic run-great reviews and sold out houses. Which made its subsequent Broadway drubbing all that baffling.

LOTS of shows are big hits in London and flop in NYC.

[quote] Ever the amateur sleuth, Michele even confirmed that the letter was indeed authentic. "I know that my co-star, Ramin [Karimloo], had gotten a letter from her when the show first opened, because he knows her. He's performed with her before. So I snuck into his room, found his copy of his letter, and then just made sure that the writing was the same. And it was. So that was all I needed."

Sure, Jan.

What a freak!

R26-Marty would be perfect for a revival of Sugar Babies. If Mickey could do it, Marty certainly can.

Yes, there's a HUGE audience waiting to see Sugar Babies. Get right on that...

Are there truly many Neil Diamond fans still alive?

Rose's Turn seems to have become the Nessun Dorma of Broadway females singers. They're all expected to sing it.

Does anyone have a recording of Audra's Rose's Turn? It seems odd that it would've been done twice at big shows in London/NY and yet nothing's surfaced online.

Don’t forget that Betty Buckley did a thrilling “Rose’s Turn” at her Carnegie Hall concert, and then she was a big dud when she played the role at Papermill Playhouse.

But of course, R58, the statements that Buckley's "Rose's Turn" at Carnegie Hall was "thrilling" while her performance as Rose at Paper Mill was a "big dud" are both matters of opinion.

Well it's the the end for STOMP, finally. I wonder if anything is lined up for the Orphium? Anything at all?

Wow, I didn't even realize Stomp was still running. I thought it closed years ago.

I never saw it. It seemed like it would be...loud.

I think this may be the end of the line for the Orphium Theater, but I hope I'm wrong.

Well, the Orphium Theater never existed. The Orpheum Theater did.

Hey, LA, I'm comin' your way!

Orpheum Orpheum Orpheum

KPOP closing on December 11. Damn, that was FAST. Ticket sales must have been really dire.

Wow, you really had to squint at a calendar to see how few performances there were

Another theater will now be open to house a play about the black experience. Yay.

Wonder who they'll blame, rather than blaming themselves. K-pop as a genre is based around the fans obsessing over the idols, so the idea that those same people would go and see a show without their favourite particular groups was stupid. Plus K-pop groups are so tightly choreographed that they almost enter uncanny valley territory with how synchronised they are, something the KPop cast failed to do judging by the videos out there

Don't think this has been posted.

[quote]We saw the open letter written about The Times’s review of KPOP and quickly convened a discussion among editors and members of our standards department. This group was in agreement that Jesse’s review was fair. More importantly, we wholly disagree with the argument that Jesse’s criticism is somehow racist. We always welcome feedback and reaction to our journalism, and have conveyed a similar reply to the producers who wrote the open letter.

I would like to write an open letter about how MY work was always dismissed and diminished

KPOP

KDROPPED

KFLOPPED

K-Closed up SHOP.

I'd also like to request someone posting a clip of Audra's "Rose's Turn." I'm finding it very difficult to imagine. I can hear her pulling of a sweet "Small World" or "You'll Never Get Away From Me", but her voice doesn't seem ideal for the score at all and, if she were to truly belt it for 8 shows a week, I have a feeling she'd find herself in a Julie Andrews situation where she could damage her voice. Maybe it would be safer for her to do it for one of those live TV musicals where she'd only have to do it full out once.

My brother invested in KPOP

I'm sorry, r75.

R71 -- Good on the NYT for standing their ground. The petulant, reckless overreaching by the KPOP cast and producers needs to be called out for what it is. They cried wolf (as did Tonya) and the NYT wisely rejected their baseless race baiting.

The fact that Tara Rubin's office reposted the producers letter shows just how feckless and running scared this town is in the current climate.

It's about time the NYT started sticking up for its writers. It still amazes me the way they screwed over Alison Roman, which was one of the cancellations that gave the Twitter mob a sense of power and encouraged cancel culture. But, then, she wasn't on staff--Green is and would have union protection if the NYT did anything truly stupid.

I predict a social media meltdown over this.

The competition!

Man, 1776 is flopping hard, capacity down 11 percent from last week to 55 percent. It's doing worse than K-pop.

Does this mean no Tony nomination for Porkslob?

Porkslob nay not be nominated for a Tony but you best believe she is gonna win that Broadway.com award!

Having seen KPOP and 1776, there's no comparison. KPOP was vastly more entertaining, for all its flaws, and far more expertly done than 1776.

NO ONE associated with 1776 deserves a TONY nom. No one.

Porkalob's performance has all the makings of a Daytime Tony!

For all the people on social media rushing to defend Porkalob and her POV (and they certainly exist)...

Don't underestimate the bad feeling she's inspired in fellow actors (including her own cast members) and segments of the New York theatre community.

TONY nom? That bitch is finished in NYC, from what I can tell.

r64 works in Mr. Orpheum's office.

I was being facetious about Porkslob's Tony nomination--she said she wanted one--somehow being a team player and not throwing the show you're currently in isn't something she's heard about . . .

But, yeah, I also think she's done. There are other chubby belters of color out there who don't openly sabotage their shows.

Some Like It Hot is also tanking though not as dramatically--down 2 percent, pulling in $644K, 65 percent capacity. Not really a great sign for a show opening next week, but I suppose if it gets great reviews . . .

But I think audiences aren't nearly as interested in gender-bendery earnest questions of identity as the theatre community is.

[Quote] Well it's the the end for STOMP, finally

I walked by that theatre the other day, the first time in years, and was shocked it was still playing

What also hurt Some Like It Hot is the lack of stars.

1) most of the fans of the movie were born before 1950

2) said fans of movie aren’t keen to see the woke version

3) Christian Borle is a good actor but he’s not a name and shows need a name to sell OR be a monster hit

Is Some Like It Hot closing??

r89, can I also add that Christian Borle stinks in the show and appears to be walking through it like he's slumming?

I'm not surprised that he apparently had to come up with much of his own dialogue but it still isn't nearly good enough.

I thought Christian Borle always stinks.

Or was that Gavin Creel?

KPOP may be getting a quick closing but don't forget, counting all those previews, it's played over 50 performances (more than 6 weeks) so it certainly had a chance to build up some good word of mouth. Which it clearly didn't, even with the invaluable attention Jesse Green's pan gave it. I would think a young Asian audience, if no else, might have been curious to see and hear what all the brouhaha was about.

Sara:

I'm ready to do Dragon Lady againnn. Looking for intimate/small performance spaces, any recs are very appreciated 💪🏽💕

3:25 PM · Nov 28, 2022

Even a young gaysian audience stayed away.

Agree that Borle is terrible. The character has to be sexy; he ain't.

[quote]I'd also like to request someone posting a clip of Audra's "Rose's Turn." I'm finding it very difficult to imagine. I can hear her pulling of a sweet "Small World" or "You'll Never Get Away From Me", but her voice doesn't seem ideal for the score at all and, if she were to truly belt it for 8 shows a week, I have a feeling she'd find herself in a Julie Andrews situation where she could damage her voice. Maybe it would be safer for her to do it for one of those live TV musicals where she'd only have to do it full out once.

But has she ever consistently done eight performances a week in a musical? I'm thinking maybe not since CAROUSEL. Even when she has been officially scheduled for all performances of a show, she has called out a lot, and she has pretty much stated that she has no problem calling out whenever she feels her voice is feeling slightly strained or tired and she thinks there's even a slight chance of damaging it. Apparently, the PORGY AND BESS mess happened because she asked for an alternate when the show moved to Broadway but her request wasn't granted, so she began to miss some performances from the beginning and then a lot more after she won the Tony. And then, if I recall correctly, she finally got an alternate.

Her Rose's Turn seemed to blow her lungs out. Too much.

[quote]Her Rose's Turn seemed to blow her lungs out. Too much.

And, as I mentioned, the last half of the song didn't sound right because it was transposed upward so she wouldn't have to sing it in raw belt. Even so, when she sang "For me! For me!," she had to completely distort the vowels to get the necessary volume and intensity, so what she sang literally sounded like "For May! For May!" No exaggeration. The concert was fabulous overall, but "Rose's Turn" was the low point.

Singers, why is it easier to sing May than Me?

I'm not one of those people 'over' Audra. I think she's enormously talented and has earned her stature in the theatre. BUT, am I alone in kind of hating it when she "belts"? While she might technically be capable of belting, something about the quality and tone of her voice makes her belts incredibly shrill and grating. Just listen to her performance of Cabaret from her Carnegie Hall concert everyone is talking about. OOof! BUT, when she sings material more suited to her soprano voice -- or, even more specifically -- music that blends traditional classical with jazz and/or spiritual influence (like the work of Gershwin or Arlen) she sounds exquisite.

Audra was brilliant in Marie Christine at LCT in 1999… in a ridiculously difficult part, albeit written explicitly for her by Michael John LaChiusa. She did a song from it on Rosie’s show way back then, but apparently that clip disappeared. That said… the Act One finale is epic.

R96 I just saw Some Like It Hit tonight. I disagree about Borle as did those who accompanied me to the show. Borle provided the best comedic acting among the cast and while he didn’t provide the handsome sexiness of Tony Curtis he served us tons of charm And charisma. The non-binary supportive messaging was a tad heavy handed for my liking, but the staging was fast paced and fun. The ballads were weaker than the jazzier up tempo numbers that I found fun.

Have to admit this is very good. Her performance here actually makes me want to see this production.

The orchestra also sounds better than I've heard in other promotional clips. Perhaps they've finally been whipped into shape despite not being large enough.

Did they ever have Beanie sing anything from FG on any show? Lea's been all over the place and she's sounding good and looks like she's having a blast. Go, you little bitch, go!

Of course she's having a blast. Beanie singlehandedly resurrected her from the ashes of a hundred shat wigs into the role of her dreams and a brand new Broadway future.

Merrily lives up to the hype. As has been said on here, the set is bland and the costumes are not great, but the three leads are superb. No, the book isn’t perfect, and it never will be. But this is as good as we’re going to get, and it’s pretty damn good.

Groff really stands out in particular, and if he stays with the production through the rumored transfer, he may be remembered as the definitive Frank. He has Jackman-level charisma and really exudes the kind of warmth need to make Frank sympathetic, plus his voice has never sounded better.

Radcliffe has great comedic timing and while he does sound weak next to real singers like Mendez and Groff, he’s not Beanie-level bad.

Chess rehearsal - of sorts (via Lena Hall's instagram).

It would be so intriguing if Merrily and Chess BOTH came back to Broadway next season, two huge flops originally that have proven in 30+ years that there’s a lot to love. Maybe Carrie too?

R109 And Parade. And ben wins the Tony and everyone forgets about the DEH film.

[quote]KPOP closing on December 11.

Thanks a lot, Jesse!

[quote]What also hurt Some Like It Hot is the lack of stars. 1) most of the fans of the movie were born before 1950.

I love it when DL-ers pull ignorant observations out of their ass and present them as "facts." "Some Like It Hot" is considered one of the greatest comedy classics of all time, certainly beloved by many movie fans of all ages, but Bozo here claims most of the fans are 73 and older.

Yes go to your Local Walmart [r112] and ask the cool kids of “all ages” about “Some like it Hot” and report back what you find.

Of course there are going to be a fans of all ages…but by and large it’s not a movie most people are familiar with outside of the coasts and older people.

I promise you this is true.

[quote]Groff really stands out in particular,

Is he spitting and slobbering all over everyone?

[Quote] Yes go to your Local Walmart [[R112]] and ask the cool kids of “all ages” about “Some like it Hot” and report back what you find.

Dumbest rebuttal ever even by DL standards. New broadway shows always rise and fall on the Walmart crowd

[Quote] And, as I mentioned, the last half of the song didn't sound right because it was transposed upward so she wouldn't have to sing it in raw belt. Even so, when she sang "For me! For me!," she had to completely distort the vowels to get the necessary volume and intensity, so what she sang literally sounded like "For May! For May!"

Once you said “as I mentioned “ did you really need to repeat the whole damn thing

Carolee doing Bad Cinderellla as stepmom

Talented nice lady. Deserves better shows than she gets. Maybe needed better management.

Ooooh, Carolee, you in danger, guuuurrrrrllllllll..............

R113 The local Walmart crowd can barely change its own underwear. As if we would deign to speak of such wastrels here.

One could surmise the local Walmart crowd = tourist flyover trade on Broadway

A NYC gay in his 30s that I was talking with had never seen the film of Some Like It Hot, which took me by surprise. Now, that's a case study of one, but when I read R113, I thought there's some truth to it. Those of us who grew up with the movie (I'm a Generation Xer) or fell in love with it at some point cannot understand how younger generations have never seen it or even know much about it. Some generations have no curiosity about anything that occurred before their lifetimes, be it history or culture. It may be audience fatigue with "men in a dress" musicals, but given the Broadway grosses thus far, Some Like It Hot may have less title recognition these days than I would have thought.

[quote]Of course she's having a blast. Beanie singlehandedly resurrected her from the ashes of a hundred shat wigs into the role of her dreams and a brand new Broadway future.

Thank God I didn't live to see this.

Most people under 50 don't watch old movies from the 1960s and earlier. Of course, there are exceptions, but not many. Oddly, I think because those movies are now more readily available, it makes younger people less curious to investigate and watch them.

So they think SLIH is a new musical. So what

[r115] the rebuttal wasn’t the Walmart kids are Broadway audiences. The rebuttal was him saying that audiences of all ages are fans of Some Like It Hot. It was a rebuttal about the movie not whether Broadway audiences come from Walmart.

But as it happens, the grosses from Music Man when Hugh is in-might make that point anyway

[quote]One could surmise the local Walmart crowd = tourist flyover trade on Broadway

More probably natives who need inexpensive items since the cost of living is so ridiculous.

It hardly matters how many people know the movie. The show will depend on WOM and I'm guessing that won't be enough to give it a long run. And it really needs a star turn in the place currently occupied by Christian Borle (not to mention the Sugar role).

No hate for KPOP, I know someone involved with it, but you have to think the producers of HERE LIES LOVE are shitting themselves.

The only good thing about HERE LIES LOVE was the staging and no matter how many seats they remove from the Broadway Theater, they cannot replicate the club feeling it had at the Public. I know producers wanted to move HLL sooner than this, to a non-traditional space (off Broadway) but they never found the right place.

Plus, does the Asian community turn out for anything more than a 6 week run of a Pan Asian Rep show in a 199 seat venue?

The original Merrily was a great show which tore you up emotionally at the end. If you don't think so you're an idiot. Even when seeing it I knew it was a great score. I didn't need the obc to tell me that. Prince's staging with the turntable was masterful and could never be equaled. The problem with the book is inherent in the source and it can't be fixed. What this might have is a good Franklin who wasn't strong enough in the original production. You took it on faith that he had such a strong effect on other peoples' lives. After the abominable Encores' production I never want to see it again.

[quote]Plus, does the Asian community turn out for anything more than a 6 week run of a Pan Asian Rep show in a 199 seat venue?

Perhaps they would, as would the Latin audience, if Broadway wasn't so concentrated on giving the minority representation exclusively to blacks. And you see how financially successful those shows are.

[quote] Is Groff spitting and slobbering all over everyone?

At one point in the show, you saw a giant glob of spit dribble down his chin and onto the front of his shirt, completely soaking his collar. The front of his shirt is drenched by the end of act one.

The man has an obscenely wet mouth; at least he’ll have a successful career selling blowjobs if the acting ever dries up.

Can we please stop with the idiotic idea that all Asian people like K-pop? It's as stupid as suggesting all Europeans must be interested in a musical about Britpop.

Anyone going to the "Your Own Thing" one-night benefit next week at Symphony Space? It has a good cast with lots of cameos planned. The show has a fun score, and was considered one of off-Broadway biggest hits back in the day. I remember looking through some book in a bookshop years ago talking about how it had been optioned for a pretty big sum to make into a film musical, though of course that didn't happen. I also remember the book named Phyllis Newman among some other people that were considered Hollywood Future Stars. That didn't happened anyone, despite her great rendition of "I Was a Shoo-In" beating Barbra Streisand for the Tony in 1962 and being more conventionally attractive.

"anyway" not "anyone".

It would be nice to see the Orpheum Theater become available to new shows. Or maybe transfer Little Shop downtown? That was the first show I saw there, the last one was Oleana. I have no idea what else played there, but it's nice to have a theater in the East Village. As for Stomp, it lasted about 29 years past its welcome.

[quote] Apparently, the PORGY AND BESS mess happened because she asked for an alternate when the show moved to Broadway but her request wasn't granted, so she began to miss some performances from the beginning and then a lot more after she won the Tony. And then, if I recall correctly, she finally got an alternate.

BS. Audra missed a week of performances of P&B because she was legit sick and was losing her voice.

The first show I ever saw at the Orpheum was Sandra Bernhard's Without You I'm Nothing.

[quote]Can we please stop with the idiotic idea that all Asian people like K-pop?

I heartily agree, and would add that it's equally idiotic to think that the only "youth audience" for K-Pop music must be Asian. Young people all over the world (including suburban white kids right here in the tri-State area) listen to K-Pop music. And they were there in the audience when I saw KPOP on Bway. (It was the youngest Bway audience overall I'd experienced in a while.)

R138, that's because of the provincial ignorance of westerners. The US is a significant consumer of K-Pop.

When the Houston Grand Opera did P and B on Broadway back in the 70s they had 3 people for both characters on a weekly 8 perf schedule. So it is very odd that they wanted her to do 8 perfs a week. Though I have never heard about alternates for the original production. Back then I think you really were expected to do 8 perfs a week and did them. Now women can't even perform Eliza 8 times a week. When before it would have been unthinkable to have had anyone else do the role during the run. And this is with today's miking!

Whenever Carolee gets cast in anything I always wonder how many people turned the role down first.

[quote]I'm not one of those people 'over' Audra. I think she's enormously talented and has earned her stature in the theatre. BUT, am I alone in kind of hating it when she "belts"? While she might technically be capable of belting, something about the quality and tone of her voice makes her belts incredibly shrill and grating.

She has been belting like that from the beginning of her career, whenever she needs to belt. I think it's very purposefully done because she considers it exciting and dramatic when she sings that way, and I'm guessing that many people agree.

[quote]BS. Audra missed a week of performances of P&B because she was legit sick and was losing her voice.

That's true as far as it goes, but the rest of what I wrote was also true. Do you not remember that Audra was eventually granted an alternate? Because she was, and I've always thought that may have shortened the show's run, as presumably no one was buying tickets for those performances.

Audra has an incredible voice but she's a so so actress especially in films.

Audra doesn't sell nearly as many tickets when she's in a show without singing.

What a silly show.

The first show I saw at the Orpheum was LITTLE MARY SUNSHINE with Eileen Brennan.

With Circle-In-The-Square now empty, wouldn't it make more sense to reconfigure that space and do Here Lies Love in a more intimate setting instead a barn like the Broadway Theatre?

[quote]Is Groff spitting

You'd be spitting too if you offer up a Variety tribute to her and then you find out you've been replaced as her BEST FRIEND for a headline grab

[quote]leamichele: when you’re with your best friend and don’t stop believin’ randomly comes on the radio 🎶🤣

Lots of wet panties stirring on twitter in reaction to the Playbill Shaiman & Whitman interview on PLAYBILL.

What are they saying?

Not much of anything, R151. It's a total puff piece stressing how diverse the cast is, the piece is, the process is. Mainly justifying (for some ungodly reason) why two (white) Jewish men are writing the score. I like both Shaiman and Wittman a lot, but this piece is PR pandering. To which audience, I'm not sure. But it's not the bridge and tunnel types and tourists who will keep this thing afloat long after the wokey theatre types have their way with it.

In other news: rumor has it that Singapore/Fling is VERY close to getting 86'd from the ATC board. He's fucking exhausting and like every woke type, has to always have the last word on everything.

I went to a preview of a musical called El Bravo at the Orpheum and I enjoyed it a lot. It flopped, I remember Olga Merediz was in the cast. In the Heights seemed to be a rip-off of it.

....

National tours apparently hate San Francisco now. Five days for the Bart Sher "Fiddler" in March (with a cast of no-names) and six days of the current "Into the Woods" (with some of the Broadway cast) in June. Wasn't the Yiddish production of "Fiddler" supposed to tour? That's the one I'd like to see.

'the film gets a lot of easy laughs at the concept of men wearing dresses and their supposed horror at perhaps being hit on by men, ideas that are decidedly less funny to society at large 63 years later'

This person clearly has never seen the film. The idiocy of these theater writers today makes you think the major requirement for these jobs is complete stupidity.

I recall seeing Donald Margulies' SIGHT UNSEEN at the Orpheum in the early 90s with Dennis Boutsikaris in the lead. Laura Linney, who played the lead in the last revival, played the bitchy German journalist in this production.

[quote] I went to a preview of a musical called El Bravo at the Orpheum and I enjoyed it a lot. It flopped, I remember Olga Merediz was in the cast. In the Heights seemed to be a rip-off of it.

"El Bravo" played the Entermedia Theater, an off-Broadway house near the Orpheum but much larger. "El Bravo" played like a smash in previews but Frank Rich disliked it and it lasted less than two months. There's a video of it.

What about El Grande de Coca-Cola?

[quote]It would be so intriguing if Merrily and Chess BOTH came back to Broadway next season, two huge flops originally that have proven in 30+ years that there’s a lot to love.

There's a lot to love in the scores for both of these shows. As a musician, it would be interesting to me to take another look at which critics were dismissive/contemptuous of the scores for both shows when they premiered. Some theatre critics (RIP, Ben Brantley) had/have no ear for music whatsoever. How good/fair was Frank Rich at assessing music when he was the King Critic back in the 80s? I'm guessing not so great.

I was born after 1960 and I think Some Like It Hot is one of the very few perfect films.

"My father was a conductor......on the Baltimore & Ohio....."

Is that line still in?

[quote]In other news: rumor has it that Singapore/Fling is VERY close to getting 86'd from the ATC board.

That would be lovely, but can you give us some sort of hint on how you would know this unless you are either S/F or one of the admins?

When I was a boy that song got a lot of play. I hated it then and I hate it now. And E Bernstein wrote some very wonderful music. Just not here.

Has anyone named their son Elmer since? I guess Fudd ruined it.

That was in response to R146.

And I believe Bernstein's only Oscar was for Thoroughly Modern Millie which makes no sense at all.

It's mystifying to me that terrible singers were cast in Broadway musicals.

[quote] It's mystifying to me that terrible singers were cast in Broadway musicals.

Back in the day, Broadway was filled with actors first, singer/dancer second. That’s why you hear all those screechy sopranos in old shows like Oklahoma.

It was always my thought that Barbra Streisand was the first who was actually hired more for her singing voice than acting or dancing ability.

[quote]It's mystifying to me that terrible singers were cast in Broadway musicals.

Hey! No more Beanie Feldstein comments!

Could they maybe take out some of seats in the Broadway Theater and bring back some of the seating configuration of Hal Prince's "Candide" for "Here Lies Love"? Might something like that work?

Beanie is eating her feelings. She is fine.

Hey, r165! Don't forget about me.

Has anyone any idea who this noxious Singapore/Fling is? He's apparently a theater teacher, a white (now calling themself non-binary) with a black boyfriend (maybe the partner is non-binary too), who once took a trip or stayed in Singapore, but still culturally appropriated an Asian handle and didn't drop it even when called out on it? Life is happier when not responding, nay, not even clicking or reading his posts, but lately even in the midst of thread he had a whopper of a headline: "I hope my credibility speaks for itself", to which even Ann herself scoffed " It's hard for things like this, posted with no accountability (i.e., anonymously) to go very far.: It's good to hear she may be sick of "them" too.

Begone, SIngapore/Fucking Fling!!!!

HOW NOW DOW JONES is a very entertaining flop. Some catchy tunes, a lot of great Carolyn Leigh lyrics, and Brenda Vaccaro, tearing up the joint with "He's Here!" Tony-nominated, too!

Joan Roberts, Barbara Cook, John Raitt, Dolores Gray, etc. could sing quite well, thank you.

R174, one can only hope. It was a joy to see Ann scoff at that idiot's pronouncement about his own "credibility."

[quote]Back in the day, Broadway was filled with actors first, singer/dancer second. That’s why you hear all those screechy sopranos in old shows like Oklahoma.

That's a very gross generalization, and there are as many examples to refute it as to support it.

[quote]It was always my thought that Barbra Streisand was the first who was actually hired more for her singing voice than acting or dancing ability.

Then you have almost zero knowledge of Broadway history. To cite only one of dozens of examples, do you REALLY think Ethel Merman was hired more her acting or dancing ability (!!!!!) than for her voice?

[quote]Back in the day, Broadway was filled with actors first, singer/dancer second

Wrong, r169. Educate yourself.

RIdiculous assertion. Most stars of Broadway musicals could sing, based on the literally hundreds of recordings out there. When you hear Tony Roberts on that recording, it's quite a departure from the norm.

How did Tony Roberts get so much work over the years, even before Woody Allen became famous? He's an ok actor, much better looking guys out there, though since he's famous he is certainly recognizable now, but how did he get so much work over the years?

[quote] do you REALLY think Ethel Merman was hired more her acting or dancing ability (!!!!!) than for her voice?

Merman was hired because she was loud. Her voice had zero nuance, she bellowed ballads with as much subtlety as her uptempo songs and she could never overcome that Queens accent (Annie Get Your Gun via South Astoria).

John Raitt was a great singer but not much of an actor. And hard to look at.

Please let's not name all of the incredible Broadway singers of the past 100 years.

The thing about that performance of I'm the Greatest Star is that Lea Michelle seems like she's having a whale of a time and is doing it effortlessly.

This is the thing about Funny Girl. Like to so much else in life, if yer Fanny ain't effortless the whole thing becomes a miserable slog for all involved.

[quote] if yer Fanny ain't effortless the whole thing becomes a miserable slog for all involved.

I heard a prostitute in London say that exact same thing.

Oh, yes, John Raitt was very hard to look at.

R174. Will no one rid me of this meddlesome Fling?

Get him, girls!

Step...

[quote] Yes go to your Local Walmart [[R112]] and ask the cool kids of “all ages” about “Some like it Hot” and report back what you find. Of course there are going to be a fans of all ages…but by and large it’s not a movie most people are familiar with outside of the coasts and older people.

Because I certainly consider kids at my local Walmart the final arbiters of whether a classic movie is actually popular. You've already proved your ignorance. We don't require further evidence.

r158, I also loved that original off-Broadway production of Sight Unseen at the Orpheum in the early 90s. Amazing theater right in the heart of the East Village.

What was the name of that other East Village theater where Donald Margulies' Dinner With Friends played for a long time? Also, a great production. And I remember seeing a funny Alan Ayckborn play at that same theater with Mary Louise Parker as a time-travelling prostitute. Has that theater been torn down?

So sad that commercial off-Broadway is no more.

That was the Variety Arts, R192.

[quote] So sad that commercial off-Broadway is no more.

I say this all the time. Not everything belongs on Broadway, yet that's the only goal.

It's crazy to think that, throughout the 1990s off-Broadway was flourishing, with several long runs of plays. Not musicals, but honest-to-god plays. And then boom, it was over.

I think one of the big changes that happened in the early 2000s is suddenly there were new American plays that were being produced on Broadway very profitably for healthy runs. PROOF, THE TALE OF THE ALLERGIST'S WIFE and DOUBT were three examples, all originally produced by the non-profit Manhattan Theatre Club . There was also the original production of TAKE ME OUT that began at The Public.

Even just 10 years earlier, those plays probably would have just moved onto commercial off-Broadway runs.

[quote] Audra doesn't sell nearly as many tickets when she's in a show without singing.

And not even then most of the time.

Raitt was very good looking but he had no real spark on screen. I wish in Pajama Game she had played with a man who had somewhere near her star power like Gordon MacRae or Howard Keel men who had been successful co-stars in the past. Would they have cost so much more than Raitt? At that point they would have been very happy to land a movie musical. It was no longer the early 50s when jobs were still frequent. The film would have been a lot more successful.

I think when John Raitt appeared on Broadway in PAJAMA GAME he was considered very hot and sexy, "tall, dark and handsome" as they used to say, in spite of how he might be viewed today. And it also seemed to be a selling point to boast that Doris Day was appearing with the Original Broadway Cast. Obviously, they probably could have gotten Shirley MacLaine for the Carol Haney role if they felt they needed more starry names.

In any case, I don't think it became clear that Raitt wasn't movie star handsome until after the film opened.

"Step to the Rear" was the kind of charming showstopper that you could count on seeing even in mediocre shows back in the day.

R199. Story is if they had cast a Hollywood name as Sid then Janis Paige would have been Babe and if they cast Doris then Raitt would be cast.

[quote]Story is if they had cast a Hollywood name as Sid then Janis Paige would have been Babe and if they cast Doris then Raitt would be cast.

Similar to the movie version of "Damn Yankees," by the same writers. Gwen Verdon got to re-create her role, but Tab Hunter, then considered a rising star, was cast in place of Stephen Douglass. In both films, many of the other stage performers were retained.

R169, Not only is that not true, it's the opposite of true. Because there was no or little miking, being able to project and sustain that projection 8 performances a week meant that singing ability was a priority--to the point the choruses were split between singers and dancers as a matter of course. Acting came third--if you've waded through MT scripts you'll see the dialogue is often pretty simple and lacking in subtext. The big emotional moments are musical--i.e. in Carousel, you don't see Billie and Julie have a fight where he hits her. Instead you have her sing "What's the Use of Wonderin'" and he sings the truly challenging "Soliloquy"--Billie Bigelow was originally played by John Raitt, by the way, and it took a strong, healthy baritone to deliver that number night after night.

What is different is recording technology and an understanding that a voice that works well in a theatre (you need a certain amount of steel in a soprano to project easily over an orchestra) isn't the same as what sounds good on headphones.

R169 what old musicals are you exactly talking about when you say screechy sopranos? What recordings and singers are you referring to?

I'm not r169 and I'll admit I'm not musically trained, but to my ears, Joan Roberts (Oklahoma), Jan Clayton (Carousel), Gertrude Lawrence (The King and I, et.al.) and Isabel Bigley (Guys & Dolls) all sound rather screechy.

OTOH, Barbara Cook (Candide, She Loves Me), Carol Lawrence (West Side Story), Anna Maria Alberghetti (Carnival) and, of course, Julie Andrews (MFL & Camelot) all have glorious sopranos with no screech.

R205, no offense, but I think there really must be something wrong with your ears, or maybe you just lack the vocabulary to try to explain what you mean, but there was absolutely nothing about the voices of Joan Roberts or Jan Clayton that could remotely be described as "screechy." And although both Gertrude Lawrence and Isabel Bigley had their flaws as singers, I wouldn't really describe their voices as "screechy" either.

I guess you could say they have more metal in the voice a term used for opera singers but I think they're pretty wonderful but not to modern tastes as far as the Broadway musical is concerned.

Advancements in recording equipment and sound quality from the '30s through the '50s is a part of it.

Maybe "tinny" is a better word for what I was trying to say about the first group of ladies.

r206, how would you compare my first group of sopranos with my second group? Surely, you can hear a big difference?

[quote]"Step to the Rear" was the kind of charming showstopper that you could count on seeing even in mediocre shows back in the day.

True.

^I've never seen that before - it's actually...a little depressing.

Interesting what some people find as charming are to others agony.

[quote]It's mystifying to me that terrible singers were cast in Broadway musicals.

Me too.

[quote][R206], how would you compare my first group of sopranos with my second group? Surely, you can hear a big difference?

In my opinion, the singing voices of ALL of the women you mentioned sound very different from each other, so I simply disagree with your groupings. By the way, for what it's worth, although I personally adored Barbara Cook's voice, I've spoken to quite a few people who found it unpleasant because of that "pinched" quality she sometimes had on high notes, especially when singing a closed vowel such as long "e."

R209, your preferred group of singers were all recorded when stereo recording became the norm and recording techniques in general had improved substantially.

That said, Gertrude Lawrence was supposed to be a charming performer, but her singing was a bit all over.

Jan Clayton, IMO, had a very clear, sweet instrument--it's a shame her personal issues got in the way of her career.

“Jan Clayton, IMO, had a very clear, sweet instrument--it's a shame her personal issues got in the way of her career.”

Bitch!

I'd take Gertrude Lawrence's "screechy" "all over" singing over all the dreary, dull, charisma free leading musical theater people of today.

The Sutton Fosters and Kelli O'Haras of today and their ilk might be better singers but they're so boring.

Sutton and Kelli are technically excellent singers but both completely lacking in personality and charisma. Rebecca Luker was the last spectacular singer on Broadway and yes I'm including Audra.

Kelli was sensational in the Roundabout's benefit performance of She Loves Me. The best I've ever seen her. Something clicked between her and that role and she was alive. It's too bad she didn't do the subsequent production and we got an uncharacteristically charmless Laura Benanti instead

I think that modern performers handle this song better than the old-timey performers.

In my opinion, it works better when sung in a lower key, not as legit soprano. Carrie is comic relief. This, to me, falls in the screechy soprano category.

I thought Kelli was surprisingly good in The Gilded Age, in a part that had more complexity than most of the others. Straight-play acting is, of course, different from musical theatre acting, calling for less projection of personality and more "losing oneself" in the character. If her personality isn't particularly charismatic it could suit her better.

Kelli was a black hole in Bells are Ringing. Not a drop of charm, humor or style. I've had no desire to see her since.

I admit she was horribly miscast still she didn't do shit with the role.

SHE LOVES ME seems like a good role for Kelli. She's great at introspective characters with an edge. Her best performances for me were in SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS and FAR FROM HEAVEN. They fit her perfectly.

What were Jan Clayton's personal issues? I've always wondered why she didn't do more stage and film work. Her character on Lassie always seemed so depressed.

And what are the DL opinions on Carol Lawrence and her soprano? I had a gayling crush on her in the 1960s when she'd appear frequently on TV variety shows. She was so classy, graceful and lovely. But was she not considered photogenic enough for a Hollywood career?

Only on DL would we be talking about Jan Clayton's squillo

Well somebody has to.

Jan Clayton was a drunk. But she should have been a bigger star. Find her Bench scene from the 50s tribute to R&H. Stunning. SHe should have been a perfect Sally in Follies, but I guess she just wasn't up to it by that point.

Kelli O’Hara is good on Gilded Age and I like her in Carousel.

Laura Benanti is a lot of things. She’s good with drama and she was really good as Amy Schumer’s mom on that dramedy this past year. I also think she was good as Melania.

She’s a good featured performer. Louise was perfect for her, as was Cinderella. She also shown in Women On the verge.

She was not good in The Wedding Singer or She Loves Me.

[quote] She also shown in Women On the verge.

What did she show?

R192-That was the Variety Arts Theatre.

Clayton became an alcoholic after her young daughter was killed in a car accident. Then she became a member of and volunteer for AA.

[quote]BROADWAY SHOW: "‘The Broadway Show’: ‘Some Like It Hot’ writers Matthew López and Amber Ruffin on what actually makes comedy today" by Broadway News' Caitlin Hornik - "The co-writers re-thought the three main characters — Joe, Jerry and Sugar — from scratch. That’s because of their combined lived experiences as well as their comedic perspectives. The duo agreed that what was once funny, especially at the time when the film premiered in 1959, isn’t necessarily what a 2022 audience would laugh at. “To the audience for the original movie, two cis-men in dresses was funny. Neither of us think that’s funny.”"

Which rather begs the question why they signed on in the first place, rather than just writing an original show

[quote] “To the audience for the original movie, two cis-men in dresses was funny. Neither of us think that’s funny.”"

And that's why your fucking show is going to fail.

Considering this is a still beloved movie and men in dresses always was and always will be funny and what audiences in 2022 will laugh at why would you have to rethink these characters from scratch pretty much what R233 said.

Matthew López and Amber Ruffin- two assholes taking on a project they have complete contempt for. And they are not cis men. They ARE men.

[quote]SHe should have been a perfect Sally in Follies, but I guess she just wasn't up to it by that point.

But she was, r228...

r228...

Please, only on DL would people whine about Audra not being spectacular and not being a good actress.

Please, when was the last time you were even in NYC?

Interesting -- I just looked at the imdb.com listing for the movie of WICKED, which is now in pre-production, and the genre description reads "Action, Adventure, Family," with no mention of the dreaded word "Musical."

[quote]SHE LOVES ME seems like a good role for Kelli. She's great at introspective characters with an edge. Her best performances for me were in SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS and FAR FROM HEAVEN. They fit her perfectly.

Both Kelli and Sutton have played some roles in which they were perfectly cast and achieved great success....and some other roles in which they were terribly miscast and pretty much failed. I won't name the successes because they're obvious, but Kelli should never have done BELLS ARE RINGING or KISS ME KATE, and Sutton should never have done ANYTHING GOES or THE MUSIC MAN. I'm sure it's very hard to say "no" when someone offers you the starring role in a Broadway production, even if you know you're really not right for it, but I applaud the people who have he strength to do just that, and ultimately I think they're better off for it.

Thanks, r237. Made my day.

Kelli also was very strong in The Pajama Game and there were certainly sparks between her and Harry Connick Jr. (whatever might have been happening behind the scenes. Connick was in astounding physical shape during that run, so I could understand the impulse).

Connick's "Daddy Warlocks" made him permanently unfuckable, no matter what he did/looked like in the past.

Oh, I don't know. Everyone else can judge for themselves here. He looks pretty fuckable to me.

[R175]: I sometimes find it hard to believe, but I actually saw “How Now Dow Jones” 3 times! Twice during its Boston tryout, then again in New York. Tuneful and enjoyable all 3 times. Best show score by esteemed film composer Elmer Bernstein. (I also saw the less estimable “Merlin,” but, as my mother used to say, “Across that subject let us draw a veil!”)

Looking back, aside from its “How to Succeed” derivative, flimsy plot, HNDJ had a stronger female presence. Marilyn Mason was charming, Brenda Vaccaro funny, and the stock market ladies endearing. Though Hiram Sherman won the Tony for his befuddled executive, it was pallid Tony Roberts who was really the hole in this confected doughnut. It was intriguing that even his few solos were neither endearing nor memorable. Aside from her one-night stand, I often thought what Mason’s character found in him.

Too bad. It was still an entertaining show, and deserves more attention in renewed performance.

R244, Hmm, at the performance I attended, Harry donned a wife beater for the curtain call.

It's not on the album but How Now, Dow Jones also has a fantastic overture. A real Phil Lang swinger. Carolyn Leigh's lyrics are sensational throughout and there are a few really charming songs. But the plot does seem insane.

[quote] Tony Roberts who was really the hole

Pics please.

The first time I saw Tony Roberts was when he took over for Jerry Orbach in Promises. He was sensational. Ever since then in everything he has ever done he seems to be a man with no talent.

Yes, r236, I know she played it, but supposedly was quite weak in the role.

Also, saw HNDJ in its Boston tryout and remember enjoying it very much. Those were truly the days when middling shows like that were produced so well in all departments, the material was considerably lifted.

Now....am I crazy or do I remember Madeleine Kahn being in it?

What a surprise. The Times pans Idina's documentary.

R239, Wicked isn’t in pre-production, it’s been shooting for months.

[quote] Now....am I crazy or do I remember Madeleine Kahn being in it?

She was in it out of town, but I think her part was cut?

[quote]Wicked isn’t in pre-production, it’s been shooting for months.

Not with Morrible...

couldn't it have been shooting without having announced her, r255?

Of course, r256...but obviously without Morrible.

[quote]Wicked isn’t in pre-production, it’s been shooting for months.

I believe you if you say so, I was just going by what it says on imdb.com

[quote]What were Jan Clayton's personal issues? I've always wondered why she didn't do more stage and film work. Her character on Lassie always seemed so depressed.

Jan Clayton was always my favorite mom on "Lassie." As Jeff's mother, she always struck me as warm and caring. As Timmy's adoptive mother, June Lockhart seemed like a cold fish.

Wouldn't anyone care to discuss Carol Lawrence's squillo?

Carol Lawrence = Pretty looks, nice voice, good dancer, decent actress...

but no distinction

[quote]Jan Clayton was always my favorite mom on "Lassie." As Jeff's mother, she always struck me as warm and caring. As Timmy's adoptive mother, June Lockhart seemed like a cold fish.

What am -- chopped liver?

[quote]men in dresses always was and always will be funny

And, of course, in the end, there are many jokes and sight gags about how ugly and old Christian Borle looks as a woman (and he does!). So, what did those wokesters think they were correcting?

I don’t know how to link to Twitter but Jeremy O Harris is getting into a Twitter meltdown fight with a white producer right now about white supremacy in the theatre with selling tickets

Carol, a little later, using her strong lower register. I don't know how they remembered the choreography here.

Imagine Chita doing that number, r266. I saw Carol in Spider Woman and while she gave an accomplished performance, it was still Chita-lite.

There was choreography r266?

I haven't seen SOME LIKE IT HOT YET, and that Playbill article is so poorly written that it doesn't make this clear, so can someone tell me in what time period the action of the show is set? Because the action of the movie was set in 1929, and the action of the previous musical version, SUGAR, was set in 1931. All of which I think is significant as to how subjects of queerness and trans/non-binary people might be expected to be treated in these shows.

P.S. Here's a weird freaking thing: If you search for SOME LIKE IT HOT on ibdb, TWO shows with that title come up, and if you click on the first one, the information for SUGAR comes up -- under the title SUGAR. So why is the title listed as SOME LIKE IT HOT when you search for it, but then it changes to SUGAR when you click on the link for info on that show? What in blazes is that all about???

That's not weird at all. Sigh. Sugar was based on "Some Like it Hot" and it's credited as such. Have you always been so dumb?

R266, aNot sure who the white producer is, but Jeremy O Harris is a real piece of work. What a diva.

Whoever linked that Twitter KPop thread, thanks! Some of the posts were unbelievable.....at least the responses were spot-on.

Do you mean this Twitter thread, R265?

No r265, but thanks!!! I'll spend time on that one.

This guy and his KPop as art post made me laugh the most.

R265, see R79.

Also, the future of theater in America is doomed if producers continue present8ng plays and musicals to please woke Twitter.

[quote]That's not weird at all. Sigh. Sugar was based on "Some Like it Hot" and it's credited as such. Have you always been so dumb?

Yes, of course SUGAR was based on SOME LIKE IT HOT. But the title of the musical was SUGAR when it ran on Broadway, before it was changed to SOME LIKE IT HOT many years later for at least one touring production that starred Tony Curtis. There is no reason why the musical that opened on Broadway in 1972 should come up when you search for SOME LIKE IT HOT on ibdb -- just as, of course, THE MATCHMAKER does not come up when you search for HELLO, DOLLY! -- and certainly no reason why that title should change to SUGAR when you click on the link.

That video at R266 is very "I'm So Excited" as performed in the "Loveland" sequence of Follies.

[quote]That video at [R266] is very "I'm So Excited" as performed in the "Loveland" sequence of Follies

At which dinner theater, r277?

Jesus Christ, Jeremy O Harris is a tiresome cunt. What the hell is he going on about with Broadway ad agencies marketing solely to upper middle class white audiences??

Advertising by nature is intended to have the broadest possible commercial appeal. Men, women, children, black, white, latino, straight, gay, etc etc. It's grabbing as MANY of those people as possible. Exploitative at times? Sure. Racist? No. Because that would be commercially counterintuitive. This is a complete misreading of how ad agencies work. If they thought they could rally 90% of the black audiences out there to see ANY given show, they would. The reality is, it's far more complicated than that. There are socio-economic, cultural and geographical barriers to entry to rallying ideal audiences to come see a show.

This whole White Fragility/Anti-Racism/CRT lens we're viewing every single thing thru is creating a maelstrom of racial paranoia. It's a kind of neo-racism and it's totally regressive. Despite what these woke morons (like J.O.H.) protest on Twitter to equally moronic audience.

Lynn Nottage chimed in with this: "The marketing houses on Broadway have such resistance to evolving, diversifying or reaching beyond their standard practices. They live in a bubble & r still formulating their strategies based on antiquated outreach models. A one size fits all approach."

The problem with all these arguments is that ad agencies frequently don't HAVE the luxury of crafting multiple, demographically specific campaigns for a single show. There's simple not the time, resources or MONEY to have multiple advertising approaches / show branding to cater to all these different groups. We're talking in ideals here (which is really the language of woke Twitter) and not the reality every production faces.

I WILL agree, however, that the means of marketing a show are becoming largely antiquated. Print media is dying a sad death, major newspaper reviews hold less (if no) weight -- so a full page ad in the NYT also doesn't hold as much sway anymore. Social media IS the thing. And some shows are doing really imaginative, compelling campaigns and outreach thru it. But having worked in this sector, the spending required to make a DENT is substantial. And you'll burn thru it before previews even begin.

That's the hurdle every single show/producer/agency is up against. The eyeballs and younger, more diverse demos are out there, but it requires strong creative campaigns and BIG marketing dollars to break thru the noise on those platforms. A lot of these ad agencies are still in print media mode. Some are diversifying their roster with younger talents who understand what it takes to go viral, but it's too slow a change, and again, a very costly arena to compete in.

Could it be my play sucks? No, the marketing company must have done something wrong. It's also incredibly hilarious to hear that from the author of a play which received far more media attention than it deserved. You literally couldn't give away tickets to Slave Play, maybe the advertising wasn't to blame.

[quote]Many young and black audience members had their behavior policed in the space. At the two K-POP shows I saw I witnessed ppl be policed too.

So, what, young and black people should be allowed to behave however they want? Of course, this is the same twat who defended Rihanna texting during his play.

r280 Wouldn't it ultimately be the producers who decide where to focus the marketing, in terms of print vs digital, etc?

Lot of blame game going on here. The Slave Play has the unique privilege of having flopped not just once, but twice, on Broadway. It won awards--people knew about it--but who really wants to spend a couple of hundred dollars and an evening of their time seeing it? It wasn't marketing--people didn't want to see it--white people get tired of being lectured and Blacks get tire of being portrayed as victims. Asians see no connection.

As for K-Pop--sounds like it was a fun intimate show that lost what made it special in the transfer. I'm one of those people who actually watches K-drama and has seen a few K-Pop videos. I couldn't see the point of K-Pop--what's it bringing to the conversation? It seemed like a show that was trying to cash in on a trend, but didn't really have anything to say about it.

I admit to being amused by outrage Twitter--not a fucking clue how the world actually operates.

You sound pretty knowledgeable, R280. But it's unbelievable that any reputable advertising agency in 2022 is still operating "in print media mode." Who would choose to hire someone like that?

[quote]It won awards

But not the Tonys. And that's still hilarious.

[quote]I WILL agree, however, that the means of marketing a show are becoming largely antiquated. Print media is dying a sad death, major newspaper reviews hold less (if no) weight -- so a full page ad in the NYT also doesn't hold as much sway anymore.

Tell that to Scott Rudin. Oh, wait....

R283 -- Most agencies have made the leap in thinking in much more social media/digital terms; however, the design and implementation of these new campaigns (by many top agencies) still feel like they could be printed in the Sunday Times, if that makes sense. They haven't fully embraced the user (consumer!) expectations of these mediums. If you don't embrace what makes a talent or piece of IP go viral on any given medium, it's going to just sit there -- regardless of how genius your branding angle might be.

The trickiest part of all of this, is even if they cleared house and hired the top TikTok/IG whiz kids to implement these tactics, there's still no guarantee it'll take root on the platform.

As a producer or ad executive, it's a very challenging, frustrating thing to try and wrangle. Particularly when you know you have a GREAT product (ie. a hit show!) ready to be discovered. The other sobering reality that keeps coming back from user data, is that even with BIG dollars pumped into promotion on these platform, most users aren't wanting anything glossy or too "hi fi" in their feed. It's becoming increasingly clear that users are more drawn to "low fi" content: funny videos, memes, dance challenges, etc.

SO -- how do you reduce a 20 million dollar, shiny, brassy Broadway show into a "low fi" piece of content for TikTok or IG, that also returns on that investment? That IS the big hurdle. Because the other issue is that even IF you go viral with 1,000,000 likes -- will that necessarily translate to ticket sales? The click thru rate on these platforms is VERY low. Even for mega influencers, the struggle is real to convert likes and retweets and views into dollars being spent outside the platforms.

So you can begin to see why I take such issue with some woke-y oversimplification of a very complex marketing challenge. When people cry "racism!" recklessly, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how this actually works and the REAL issues holding some shows back from reaching their full, most diverse consumer base.

Ps. Just as a quick addendum, I used a splashy 20 million dollar musical as an example above. But replace that with a "Slave Play" or something far less splashy and more intellectual/culturally specific/social justice oriented, and you begin to realize what these producers/marketers are up against.

We're also in an era where the creatives arts are being hugely undervalued by the public. People pay (or don't pay) $9.99 for access to a billion songs on Spotify a month and still manage to bitch about how expensive it is. That model is also deeply flawed and heading towards a reckoning (as it's simply not sustainable economically even for the music industry's 1%'ers like Taylor Swift).

So it's many things being true at once that holds very talented, worthwhile things back. And also why some real SHIT gets some (undeserved) moments in the sun too!

"It's also incredibly hilarious to hear that from the author of a play which received far more media attention than it deserved."

Absolutely. I also love that Jeremy O. Harris is going on and on about elitism, when he graduated Yale's playwrighting program and literally wins the award for wearing the most status symbols.

R261, Carol refused to allow Phyllis Newman to observe her from the wings when they were both in Subways Are for Sleeping.

Ah, R280, but when they have crafted multiple demographic campaigns (like Bring in da Noiz and Rent back in the 90s) they can make a unlikely show into a moneymaking hit.

I have not worked in production since then, so I do not have more recent examples. But the more marketing campaigns back then that aimed at what we would not call diverse audiences, equaled more ticket sales.

When you have a shitty product that interests no one except the pedantic elite, such as " Slave Play," screaming " racism" can help you rationalize your failure. I for one am very tired of hearing the word " racism" as an excuse for everything black that doesn't succeed. It demeans the examples of true racism, which does not include anything to do with Jeremy O. Harris. But then, if he didn't accuse everyone of racism, how would anyone remember him?

The pricing model has become ridiculous. If you want to see a failing show, expect to pay $200 each for a decent seat. For example, I love Death of a Salesman enough to see it whenever I can, but the current production is priced like it’s a hit. You can go for cheaper, but not in advance. It takes a lot of work and patience.

It's fun reading these theater threads and just as pleasurable to realize you don't have to go to see any of it.

[quote]It's unbelievable that any reputable advertising agency in 2022 is still operating "in print media mode."

I had the same reaction to that weird comment.

r289, as for Phyllis Newman, it was said that Arlene Francis, one of the legitimate theatre's most beloved divas, did not care for Phyllis and ignored her whenever she guested on What's My Line?

Phyllis Newman...

Brantley’s Maria Friedman profile in the Times today.

All but confirms a transfer.

R295, Arlene was cold to all of the seat fillers after Dorothy’s death, Phyllis Newman, Suzy Knickerbocker, Sue Oakland, etc.

I do feel bad for Maria. She admits she gave up her career in the interview, and mourns the roles she didn’t do.

She could have been a great Rose, Witch, Sally, Desiree, Lovett….

Still a good tun though.

Phyllis Newman was incredibly annoying on What's My Line. She's incredibly lucky she hooked Adolf Green.

She also hooked his brother Adolph.

R300, Her mask was always too big for her head.

back to the JOH marketing discussion there's a group getting away scot-free (or do I mean Scott (Rudin)-free?) and that's the general managers. They create budgets, including marketing lines, way in advance with zero idea of marketing reality. that's where the tried-and-true template is set and the agencies' hands are tied before they begin.

Newman's Shoo-in is terrific and tells you why she beat out the lousy song Miss Marmelstein.

GO WOKE, GO BROKE.

I picture r305 wandering around stoned in Times Square, randomly shouting “GO WOKE, GO BROKE!” and frightening the tourists.

[quote] Also, the future of theater in America is doomed if producers continue present8ng plays and musicals to please woke Twitter.

Um, you mean with minority actors?

[quote] GO WOKE, GO BROKE.

Like Hamilton...

Re: JOH Marketing discussion

JOH gives not one concrete example of "how to market to diverse audiences"

I'm getting to the opinion that most non-white people don't give a fuck about theater for a multitude of reasons. Hell, most white people don't give a fuck about theater either.

But "marketing" to non-white audiences (and I've been in these discussions) always comes across as pandering...or worse.

Anyone seen this play about gay tattooist/historian Samuel Steward?

[quote]Like Hamilton...

Got anything else?

R311, anything else with black actors....

[quote] Got anything else?

The Lion King, Hadestown, Fun Home, Kinky Boots, &Juliet

With the exception of Lion King, whose main attraction was the puppetry, the other shows were roles with black actors. Others could have played the same roles.

Sheridan Smith is doing the one person play Shirley Valentine in the West End for 12weeks starting in February. I wonder if she might hop straight over to Broadway to make her debut and get a Tony within a month of each other. I saw Pauline Collins in the original production at the Booth several times. It had a decent run, 324 performances.

No, r310, but I'm fascinated by Steward. Thanks for the heads up.

I saw both Pauline Collins and Ellen Burstyn in SV. Both were fantastic and very different. Collins was more earthy while Burstyn was more on the prim side. I normally don't like one person plays but I love SV and if Sheridan doesn't make it to Broadway I hope it's at least filmed.

Sheridan Smith is no Pauline Collins r315. I like Shirley Valentine and have seen various actresses tackle the role over the years. There’s an impression that Smith is constantly being pushed as something special - her Funny Girl at The Menier proved otherwise.

Much as with Beanie Feldstein on Broadway I was left wondering why the role was given to such a weak singer.

[quote] With the exception of Lion King, whose main attraction was the puppetry, the other shows were roles with black actors. Others could have played the same roles.

Isn't that what DL trolls are claiming is "woke"--putting in Black actors when others could have played the same roles?

&Juliet is extreme woke. Looks like it will do well.

Is it true that Broadway shows spend around 20-25% of their capitalization on advertising? It seems like a lot of money and no money at all, at the same time.

Probably it's as simple as they have to use what funds they have to have as large a presence as possible to the low-hanging fruit(s) who are a slam dunk to see the show. It's a for-profit model. Getting that long-game audience that is slower to respond is by definition a secondary concern. At the beginning, the job is probably just getting the show open with the seats filled with paying customers and getting the buzz going among people who are frequent theatregoers.

With limited funds and limited time, no matter what for-profit business you are in, you go for the likely customer who costs you least to convert to a sale before you go after the customer who takes longer and costs more.

[quote]No, [R310], but I'm fascinated by Steward. Thanks for the heads up.

You're welcome, r316 . Have you ever read Secret Historian? Very interesting.

Here's a review. I'm hoping to catch Underneath the Skin before it closes on Dec18th.

R321, Of course.

The model is about making profits now and blaming minority patrons for not showing up and paying ridiculous prices for something they've never been welcomed much too

Lol, you’re using the only show that’s been successful in that genre as an example R308? Ok.

R324, no, just the most successful musical in the last decade,

Also see R313

And yet there are tons of shows that are not particularly woke that flop each season...

Again, you can't just blame ticket prices. JOH shamed a bunch of people into paying for tickets that were then given away exclusively to black people, and yet still there was little interest.

And of course, when talking about his own play, Harris skips over the fact that a significant potion of the black community absolutely loathe him and his play.

SLAVE PLAY felt more like a skit/stunt, not a play. Hard to sell after the initial burst of press....

Glowing reviews for Audra in Ohio State Murders!

Keep trying R325.

Yes, r322. Fascinating book. I loved the part where he sought out the ancient Lord Alfred Douglas and seduced him s he could say he slept with Oscar Wilde's lover! Quite a guy.

As predicted, Jesse creamed all over himself with his review of OSM just to avoid another charge of racism. The play bored the crap out of me. And most of the audience around me. And it's over-produced. It belonged in the Mitzi Newhouse.

R332, After his devastating A Beautiful Noise review, things might be tense in the McSwenson household.

When you’ve got prehistoric mafia men like Rick Miramontez old schooling everything into the PR ground for a spread in People Magazine, nothing will ever change. The old guard of theater public relations and Broadway journalists are all elder gays full of haughty bile. And don’t get us started on the few “online” outlets, it’s all cut and paste and Paul Wontorek not knowing how to smile or wipe off his sweaty upper lip.

[quote]Jan Clayton was always my favorite mom on "Lassie." As Jeff's mother, she always struck me as warm and caring. As Timmy's adoptive mother, June Lockhart seemed like a cold fish.

[quote]What am -- chopped liver?—Clorox Bleachman

Cloris, you made June Lockhart seem like Donna Reed.

Anyone know what is the deal with Miramontez's husband?

The day after Dorothy K died, Mark Goodson got a call from Barbara Feldon's husband lobbying for her to take DK's place as the permanent 4th panelist on What's My Line?........and while he was fielding that call, his secretary buzzed to tell him that Phyllis Newman was on line two.

[quote] I picture [R305] wandering around stoned in Times Square, randomly shouting “GO WOKE, GO BROKE!” and frightening the tourists.

and then getting hit by a double decker sightseeing bus, being dragged from 49th St all the way down to Bubba Gump before dying of his wounds

Bowen Yang cast in the Wicked movies, ensuring any slim possibility that DLers might go and see it has now been eradicated

[quote] Brantley’s Maria Friedman profile in the Times today. All but confirms a transfer.

"Merrily We Roll Along" was not, is not or ever will be a good show. The only reason for a transfer will be to fleece insufferable Sondheimites. As soon as they dry up, in about 12 weeks, the show will go back to the Broadway flop history file cabinet.

I thought it was Polly Bergen who was constantly besieging Goodson/Todman with pleas to replace Dorothy K?

R340, your tiny little brain doesn't seem to be able to appreciate the slightly complex fact that the show has many wonderful things in it -- including, umm, the score -- even though many people would agree it doesn't really work as a whole. I guess you're one of those benighted individuals who can ONLY see things in black and white: "Bad show!!!" "Great show!!!"

[Quote] your tiny little brain doesn't seem to be able to appreciate the slightly complex fact that the show has many wonderful things in it

So does Bajour

R341, G and T had had enough of Polly when she was a regular on TTTT.

r333, Green did not review BEAUTIFUL NOISE; Ms. Vincentelli did. (Unless Green made his opinion known elsewhere.)

r333, Green did not review BEAUTIFUL NOISE; Ms. Vincentelli did. (Unless he made his opinion known elsewhere).

[R333], Green did not review BEAUTIFUL NOISE; Ms. Vincentelli did. (Unless he made his opinion known elsewhere).

Neil Diamond “songs” suck. Why would anyone make a musical with them?

[R333], Green did not review BEAUTIFUL NOISE; Ms. Vincentelli did. (Unless he made his opinion known elsewhere).

[R333], Green did not review BEAUTIFUL NOISE; Ms. Vincentelli did. (Unless he made his opinion known elsewhere).

Everything but the bloodhounds..., r338!

Neil Diamond “songs” suck. Why would anyone make a musical with them?

R352, You’re not alone.

Merrily may not be good but the original was one of the most moving experiences I've ever had in the musical theater. Along with Follies and Pacific Overtures and Carousel with John Cullum and Constance Towers. Oh boy did I weep at the end of that one.

Funny thing about Polly Bergen, when she appeared as the Mystery Guest, it would take forever for the panel (who all knew her personally) to guess her identity because all their questions were answered with:

Are you known for your work in films? .....Sort of.

Are you known for your work on the legitimate stage? ....Sort of.

Well, are you in a play or a musical on Broadway now? No.

Are you known for your work on TV? .....Sort of.

Well, are you seen regularly on TV? ......Sort of.

Are you known for your singing ......Sort of.

Well, have you sold hit records? .....Sort of.

It was hard to pin down exactly what she was famous for......

Jaquel Spivey cast in the Mean Girls direct-to-streaming movie.

A little jingle in Tina's pocket.

[Quote] Merrily may not be good but the original was one of the most moving experiences I've ever had in the musical theater.

Whenever a revival can’t get it right, like every Merrily revival and Follies revival, all the eldergays wax eloquent about how great the original versions were. Of course the originals were massive flops so they couldn’t have been that great

Say, did Jesse Green review A Beautiful Noise?

[quote]Of course the originals were massive flops so they couldn’t have been that great

r358=idiot

—Messrs. Radio & Keith

R86 Well, Mr. Keith was real.

R358. I’m an eldergay and saw the original in previews (Jim Walton hadn’t yet replaced Weissenbach, for example. I thought it was a major disappointment and the show was so unengaging that I couldn’t even appreciate the score (which I think is good, but still not the masterpiece some would have it). I saw an off-Loop production of it a few years later (my partner was on the Jeff Committee), in a smaller theatre with Julia Louis-Dreyfus as Mary (she may have been leaving Northwestern about that time) and the production was better and JLD excellent. I saw the movie theatre showing of the British production and thought it was awful and the revisions not improvements. I don’t feel a need to see it yet again.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus was never in Merrily. I think you are thinking of Judy Kaplan in the productionm at Pegasus Players in 1986.

I saw merrily 3 times in its final week between Wednesday and Saturday. I understand that at the end it was very different from what it was during previews. I also understand that Merrily fanatics consider its best performance to have been at the final Sat matinee which alas I did not attend.

My favorite parts of these threads is when a show Queen posts a memory of a show they saw and then the next post is someone telling them it was a false memory.

R358, the original FOLLIES was not a "massive flop." It ran long enough that it would have paid back its investment and maybe earned a small profit if the production costs hadn't been so incredibly high.

No, R358, Elizabeth Vincentelli (sp?) reviewed A BEAUTIFUL NOISE.

R386 Sorry, who reviewed A BEATIFUL NOISE?

Broadway hasn’t been right since Playbill cut the “where the stars eat” page.

There's talk that AIN'T NO MO is closing. Not surprised.

R389 But, how? Lena Waithe is one of the producers?

Dance of the Vampires opened twenty years ago today, where did the time and the dildo sponge go?!

"Dance of the Vampires" deserved to flop. They took a huge hit in Europe, cheaped it up and took the spectacle out of it.

Bowen Yang cast in the Wicked movies

In this version Do they order Chinese delivery at Shiz university ?

Am I the only one who feels that the Wicked movie will be a disaster ?

MovieS, darling

[Quote] In this version Do they order Chinese delivery at Shiz university

But if you eat in instead of ordering takeout, Sara Porkalob is the hostess, and you can get 25% off

Whining about casting Ozians of color seems a bit odd

Do we think JaQuel Spivey will actually show up for filming, or leave half-way through the shot because of all the stress of being an actor?

r369, it appears to be official. Cancellation emails sent to ticket holders.

Just saw the playwright has launched a save-our-show campaign. I suspect he's out of luck.

I guess the black audiences didn't go. But, let's try more shows; maybe they'll show up.

It's true, as of Dec. 18, AIN'T NO MO ain't no mo.

[quote]Am I the only one who feels that the Wicked movie will be a disaster ?

I don't know, but when they announced that the musical would be made into TWO movies, it seemed like hubris and greed to me, and a very bad sign.

I assume Glinda and Elphaba will morph into super heroes for the sequels.

How were most of the reviews of AIN'T NO MO'? I thought I heard it was supposed to be good..

[quote]I guess the black audiences didn't go. But, let's try more shows; maybe they'll show up.

Maybe it will be a big hit on the Lavarious Slaughter circuit.

[quote] "Merrily We Roll Along" was not, is not or ever will be a good show. The only reason for a transfer will be to fleece insufferable Sondheimites.

As someone who saw this current production, it deserves to transfer because it is excellent. These three leads are the strongest three leads to ever play the roles. This is how Frank, Charley and Mary were meant to be. And not a dry eye in the house after “Our Time.”

This, like Funny Girl, is the kind of classic revival that tourists will pay top dollar for. And judging from that profile, Miss Friedman is hungry for a Tony.

"Flop" doesn't equal "bad" just like "hit" doesn't always mean it's good either.

The original Follies ran for over a year, had good reviews, and won a shit ton of awards. No, it didn't make any money for its investors but....boo, fuckin' hoo. Who gives a shit about investors? It's still a highly regarded great work of art. It's obviously not an easy show to do requiring a large cast of older actors. Thus, it's one best done by non-profit houses.

"Merrily" is...complicated. It has a gorgeous score and great ideas but they've never come up with a book that really works. It's still a flawed but also great work of art. Also one best done by non-profits or producers who can manage to produce it in a way that makes economic sense for the amount of people who are going to want to go see it.

How is topdog still going? Is it bc the costs are so low?

Some Like It Hot is loud, ugly, relentless and defanged. 3/10

Speaking of defanged, Roman Polanski not being legally “allowed” to direct Dance of the Vampires on Broadway after its gigantic success abroad is the #1 reason for its failure in the US. The original Polanski production is still running (!) after 25 years, in Stuttgart, and in tip top shape. Actually, Polanski himself came back this summer to direct the new Sarah and oversee bringing back the full pre-Covid immersive staging and other errata.

A (delusional IMO) letter from the playwright of Ain’t No Mo:

Ain’t No Mo’ needs your help! It’s a new original play that’s BLACK AF, which are both things that make it hard to sell on Broadway. Now they’ve posted an eviction notice, we “must close” December 18th. But thank God black people are immune to eviction notices. The Wiz got one on Opening Night in 1974, but audiences turned that around and it ended up running for four years. This show is THRILLING audiences night after night and has been acclaimed by critics, but it hasn’t had time to reflect in our ticket sales. People are coming and calling it the best theatrical experience of their life, but traditional Broadway marketing doesn’t work for this kind of show. We’re doing something new on Broadway but is Broadway ready? I believe great things happen in this world when the world ain’t ready. Help us get it ready by spreading the word and showing up to support. If you have the means, please BUY A TICKET to see “The Best New Play On Broadway” (The Wrap). If you don’t have the means, we’ve worked hard to make it accessible with an average ticket price of $50. If you can sponsor someone, please do. We need all hands on deck with urgency. In the name of art, in the name of resistance, in the name of we belong here too, in the name of every story telling ancestor who ever graced a Broadway stage or was told they never could, BUY A TICKET and come have church with us. Radical Black work belongs on Broadway too. #saveAINTNOMO

Thing is, Blacks make up 12-13 percent of the population nationwide, it's a bit more in the greater New York area, but not by all that much and they're not a group with a strong tradition of theatre going. But there's sort of this general delusion that they're a much larger group--i.e. when people talk about a coming minority majority, they seem to think that that minority is Black. Not only is this not true, there's also no particular interest in Black stories by other minority groups.

Basically, live theatre in a number of places is oversaturated with Black stories--it's out of proportion with audience demand/interest. Most of the audience doesn't identify with the narratives or the characters and, at this point, it's feeling a little same-old/same-old, so it's also not a revelation.

Identity stuff, in general, is getting a little old. I asked a Gen Z relative what she and her friends liked to watch--they seem to love ironic horror movies and kind of like it when rich white people get made fun of--so White Lotus, those horror movies that have been making a lot of money.

Nothing on Broadway seems connected to that at all.

Twitter is all abuzz about how “Broadway needs to change” with these closing announcements.

This generation is the absolute WORST!

Sometimes shows don’t sell. Not every show is Wicked and Hamilton. Hits are actually a rarity.

You can’t force an audience to come to the theatre and buy tickets. How exactly could “changing Broadway” help these shows run?

DL fave Patti LuPone and DL GOD Debra Winger couldn’t help their play sell longer than a couple weeks even with the combined forces of their turbo cunts!

Very good analysis r393.

Also I guess marketing staff are now the new enemy? WTF?

A lot of the shows that are failing on Broadway right now could have done very well off-Broadway

[quote]And, of course, in the end, there are many jokes and sight gags about how ugly and old Christian Borle looks as a woman (and he does!). So, what did those wokesters think they were correcting?

I haven't seen the show (nor care to from what I've heard) and my friends who have said that Joe the white guy in drag is the butt of all the jokes, while black Jerry is esteemed.

In the movie, Joe was the suave/debonair one (even in drag) and Jerry was the comic relief. So are they now making it that you can't make fun of black people at all?

Doesn't one of the Some Like It Hot writers read and post here a lot?

Wow, so now it seems SOME LIKE IT HOT may flop....or at least not be the hit it was thought to be?

I thought I read somewhere that Marc Shaiman used to post here. But I could be misremembering.

I think all gays who regularly work on Broadway are aware of this and it would be difficult to refrain from reading and commenting.

That title song is pretty bad. Like they were trying very hard with all their might to make a hit tuneful fun musical comedy song with absolutely no talent available anywhere. I'd say call Jule Styne but that would be misguided though even in the woebegone Sugar he managed to come up with genuine musical comedy songs though they were second tier.

Yes that’s correct r398. Black people are the victims and white people are the villains. They’re also expected to pay exorbitant prices to sit in hard uncomfortable seats and be reminded of it. Keep up.

[quote] That title song is pretty bad. Like they were trying very hard with all their might to make a hit tuneful fun musical comedy song with absolutely no talent available anywhere. I'd say call Jule Styne but that would be misguided though even in the woebegone Sugar he managed to come up with genuine musical comedy songs though they were second tier.

I think the problem with the title song is that the lyrics are DOA. It has nothing to say and spends four minutes just spinning its wheels. It's like a Cole Porter list song but without the wit to keep topping itself. The orchestrations almost save the day, but it all feels effortful instead of bubbly and joyous.

why is no one blaming the producers who aren't akknowledging the uphill, against all odd climb they're facing before doing their homework. Do they even know the (correct) stats that r393 cites? DO they have cold hard realistic conversations with marketers before locking in a budget and having an onslaught marketing notions and staff in place? They're attempting to cultivate and reap a whole new audience with no extra effort except supposedly good intentions and, perhaps, a decent show. Field of Dreams was a fucking fantasy. These producers are irresponsible. Or just want the stock amateur rights and Don Quixote "points."

[quote]I thought I read somewhere that Marc Shaiman used to post here. But I could be misremembering.

I have no idea if he has ever posted here or still does, but he's known for being one of the very few creatives who publicly responds to critics. He has written some great things, but he seems to have no self-awareness as to when his work is good and when it isn't. He even posted some angry social media rants about the bad reviews for CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY, which was a near-total misfire.

P.S. At least, there USED to be very few creatives who responded publicly to critics. Now, unfortunately, there's a LOT more of that happening.

two more things:

in what fantasy land what Ain't No Mo [italic] not [/italic] going to end this way?

what do the Shubies has lined up for the Belasco that they're enforcing the stop clause ?or are the producers (including Lee Daniels, BET, RuPaul, Jeremy O Harris, Lena Waithe, and the poseur idiots Sue Wagner and John Johnson) out of money already and/or just giving up?

There are several songs in SLIH that do nothing to advance the plot or illuminate the characters. They're simply loud and pushy and seem to exist primarily to distract the audience from the inert book and (sometimes) boring performances. The (relative) magic that the writers brought to HAIRSPRAY deserted them here.

[quote]what do the Shubies has lined up for the Belasco that they're enforcing the stop clause ?or are the producers (including Lee Daniels, BET, RuPaul, Jeremy O Harris, Lena Waithe, and the poseur idiots Sue Wagner and John Johnson) out of money already and/or just giving up?

I'd be willing to bet on the second scenario. As for OHIO STATE MURDERS, despite the rave reviews, I'd be willing to bet that if the show didn't have six-time Tony winner Audra McDonald as insurance, it would probably close next week.

Isn't OHIO STATE MURDERS hemorrhaging money?

Audra is not a box office attraction. Her last play FRANKIE & JOHNNY also flopped.

It's a shame all of the great diverse talents associated with SLIH didn't put their efforts into creating a brand new story and diverse characters instead of shitting all over a classic that didn't need to be fixed. I don't think they could come up with an original idea if they tried.

R363. I’m sure you’re right—especially since you were able to come up with the theatre company (and I could not). I don’t know why I’ve thought it was JLD all these years—I did see her do a wonderful She in Joe Egg at NU, an MFA Directing project. But whoever Judy Kaplan was, she was a standout (and Ann Morrison was the only thing I liked in the original) and the Pegasus Production made as good an argument for Merrily as could be made. WHET to Judy Kaplan?

Good point, R412. It does seem like Shaiman and Wittman spend an awful lot of time trying basically to rework classic musicals, rather than create musical adaptations of non-musicals. I would say that applies to CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY, MARY POPPINS RETURNS, and now SLIH. When you think about it, even HAIRSPRAY almost falls into this category, because there was a lot of music (and dancing) in the original movie even though it wasn't a musical.

Maybe The Public should put their money where their mouth is, and open a commercial off-Broadway venue and move the shit they are trying to peddle on Broadway there!? No, they won't get a Tony, but they could ensure more people get to see these shows and they have more exposure.

Hell, they could even carve out one of their in-house spaces for this purpose. They ran The Normal Heart in their theater for months instead of moving it to Broadway (where in may have flopped like AIN'T NO MO).

All the shows that are tanking on Broadway would have done perfectly well in a commercial off-Broadway venue. If they still existed.

I blame the landlords.

R393, there IS a strong tradition of black theater going. That is why Broadway keeps trying to tap that market.

So far they have not succeeded.

It is an interesting question to ask why black audiences have supported black commercial theater and black institutional theaters--but seem to have little interest in Broadway.

Perhaps it is because Broadway offers little that interests them.

Honestly, it's really not just BIPOC shows that are miserably failing on Broadway.

The well-reviewed DANA H, GIRL FROM THE NORTH COUNTRY, IS THIS A ROOM and THE COST OF LIVING, to name just a few recent productions with mostly white creatives and casts, never really found audiences. People simply don't want to pay exorbitant prices to sit in uncomfortable seats (often schlepping into NYC from elsewhere) and watch stories about which they have no interest. There's plenty of better entertainment right at home on their computer screens.

Hardly a profound notion.

Maybe it's because Broadway is [bold]TOO MOTHERFUCKING EXPENSIVE[/bold]??

Just spitballing here.

[Quote] the original FOLLIES was not a "massive flop." It ran long enough that it would have paid back its investment and maybe earned a small profit if the production costs hadn't been so incredibly high.

Um, you just defined a flop

Why do we expect black audiences to show up at Aint No Mo?

Why don’t white audiences care about shows with black actors?

If I'm not mistaken, there are now three premature closures for this Broadway season: Walking With Ghosts, KPOP and Ain't No Mo.

Walking With Ghosts is a great example of a non-Black show that audiences couldn't care less about. I even had to be reminded by husband just now what it was. Audiences don't want to see what they don't want to see. It has little to do with the color of the creatives.

When you look at the failure of DANA H, GIRL FROM THE NORTH COUNTRY, IS THIS A ROOM and THE COST OF LIVING, it shows that there is no audience for white plays.

Whites do not support shows about their own people, so why should the rest of us care?

[quote]I thought I read somewhere that Marc Shaiman used to post here. But I could be misremembering.

[quote]I have no idea if he has ever posted here or still does, but he's known for being one of the very few creatives who publicly responds to critics.

He used to post on BroadwayWorld and even wrote a song about the posters. It was embarrassing.

[quote]Um, you just defined a flop

I just defined a show that failed to make back its capitalization despite a 15-month run on Broadway followed by a brief run in Los Angeles. FOLLIES was a financial flop but not a "massive flop," which is the description I was objecting to.

How exciting is it that Aaron Tveit is returning to Moulin Rouge?

....crickets....

The video referred to in r426 does not seem active anymore, but here's a link mentioning it with a screenshot of Shaiman dressed up as various BWW posters.

[quote]How exciting is it that Aaron Tveit is returning to Moulin Rouge?

"Aaron Tveit" and "excited" are two concepts that don't necessarily go together.

I too found the original MERRILY very moving. In fact, the audience kept moving away from the theatre, and the night I saw it, Kevin Kline moved from his house seats to the back of the orchestra by the end.

Plays don't sell on Broadway, period. Everybody knows that.

Doesn't prevent people from rushing in to light a big pile of money on fire.

Exactly, R433. That's why the vast majority of straight plays that reach Broadway these days are produced by the non-profits for very limited runs. Even under those circumstances, they try to cast stars whenever possible to try to keep the houses more full than empty. It's a very unfortunate situation, but understandable with ticket prices so high. For many people, when they're paying THAT much for tix, they want to feel they really got their money's worth in terms of a big, splashy musical.

The extreme rarity of exceptions to this rule, such as LEOPOLDSTADT, only proves the rule.

Yep, Ain't No Mo.....ain't no mo.

All of these critically acclaimed shows are flopping and Funny Girl starring an actress who was all but cancelled and accused of racism is selling out.

I go to a lot of theater and after reading the reviews of Ain’t No Mo I had no desire to see it. It sounded like an evening of white-bashing. I’m sure it was inventively staged and probably had an important message. But who was it that said to send a telegram if you have a message? I may be mangling that saying.

I think it was Samuel Goldwyn, R437: "If you want to send a message, use Western Union."

[quote]All of these critically acclaimed shows are flopping and Funny Girl starring an actress who was all but cancelled and accused of racism is selling out.

Mainly because she starred for several years on an extremely popular TV show, but also, I think the attempted "cancellation" eventually backfired as an example of the theory that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Plus, on top of that, the show was already mainstream news because of the Beanie debacle. And THEN the TV and theater star who had originally made it very clear that this was her dream role, but who had been passed over in favor of Beanie, came in to save the show, which is EXACTLY what happened. In terms of a theater news story that's going to capture the public's imagination and translate into huge ticket sales, you couldn't write anything more effective than that.

All the Lea "cancellation" crap fell on deaf ears with the general public. They know a false controversy when they see one.

Ain’t No Mo was too long and unfocused, which diluted its effectiveness. Still, there is no excuse for black audiences not supporting a scabrous, funny piece about racism. Btw, I was one of about 10 white folks in the audience when I saw it.

Some Like It Hot is a tuneless, charmless, woke bowdlerization of the genius source material. Stuck a fork in it.

The failure of so many of these plays can be traced to the demise of the off-Broadway economic model. "Little Shop" is the exception because of its name recognition, but the idea should be that something worthy and interesting can find a home where it can run cheaply and build a smart, sophisticated audience looking for the new and noteworthy. When off-Broadway became so expensive, it just made sense to add a zero and roll the dice on Broadway. But that has now collapsed.

Who's going?

Since print advertising was always a huge expense for producers, what are the cost factors sinking commercial off Broadway and can they be fixed?

Hurr durr....alienating the base that sees your shows is Poor Business Decision 101.

Fat Ham should take The Orpheum - it could have a nice long run. It already won the Pulitzer, does it really need a Tony too?

And sticking Fat Ham into the American Airlines Theatre, of all venues?? At The Public it was in The Anspacher which has a deep thrust stage and a shallow wide intimate house. They may as well put Fat Ham in Radio City Music Hall.

I hate to break this to you: Girl From The North Country is a musical, not a play. And not a flop.

[quote]And sticking Fat Ham into the American Airlines Theatre, of all venues?

Alas, that's partly because the Roundabout is having increasing difficulty in keeping their theaters filled with their own product, and is acting more and more like a landlord that somehow manages to maintain nonprofit status.

Simple, just add full frontal nudity to all these shows. Worked for "Take me Out".

I wish success to everyone trying to make a living in the arts and understand how devastating it must be to have a project prematurely close that you put your soul and money and work into. But after 2+ years of steady white-bashing, are white people honestly expected to continue to line up and pay money to immerse themselves in more? And the "representation matters/I want to see myself up there" crowd seems to forget their own mantra in regard to white audiences.

r422 The playwrights of those shows themselves are the ones insisting the black audience needs to show up to them. Meanwhile they blame and insult the white audience, suggesting they don't want them showing up (but want them to buy tickets to give away to black people who aren't interested).

The all-nude production of "Matilda" is gonna be LIT.

Girl From the North Country returned money to its investors? That surprises me.

Do people actually think fat ham will win the tony over leopoldstadt

[quote]Simple, just add full frontal nudity to all these shows.

I'm available!

Ticket prices are insanely expensive which keeps most people from attending the theater. If you're going to spend that money, you want to see something that's going to excite you and you can go home raving about.

I think it would be smart to bring back comedies. Everything they put out these days is so earnest and serious. Something like Plaza Suite might have sold well mainly due to SJP and Matthew Broderick's name recognition, but it was also something we haven't seen in a while - a legitimate comedy on a Broadway stage. With the last two years, people could use some laughter.

I'll show my panties but that's it!!!!!

[Quote] Ain’t No Mo was too long and unfocused, which diluted its effectiveness. Still, there is no excuse for black audiences not supporting a scabrous, funny piece about racism. Btw, I was one of about 10 white folks in the audience when I saw it.

So Black audiences did show up.

The problem is there just aren’t enough Black theatre goers to keep a show going indefinitely. Again, just because you stick a show on Bway that has black people in it doesn’t suddenly make anyone think “Ive never been to a Bway show but because it has black people in it, I’ll fork over $200 to see it!”

Just like if they stuck white people into a Bollywood movie, white people aren’t going to rush to see it.

[quote]Ticket prices are insanely expensive which keeps most people from attending the theater. If you're going to spend that money, you want to see something that's going to excite you and you can go home raving about.

You also want some assurance that you're going to get to see the actors who are featured in the advertising, and not some understudy.

[quote] Simple, just add full frontal nudity to all these shows. Worked for "Take me Out".

We'll rename one of those 90 seat theaters the Jesse Williams Playhouse. SRO every night!

[quote]Simple, just add full frontal nudity to all these shows. Worked for "Take me Out".

No, it didn't. It had under 50% capacity last week. I'll never understand why the Shuberts ousted Come From Away (like it or not, it was making money) for a limited engagement that couldn't fill a small theater.

R358 is right.

[Quote] You also want some assurance that you're going to get to see the actors who are featured in the advertising, and not some understudy.

Always funny when on ATC people will chime in to say, when a star performer is out and an understudy fills in, “All those people who exchanged their tickets for another day or got refunds missed a great performance by the understudy!”

No one is going to that show to watch the understudy no matter how amazing he was

The whole nude thing with TMO was badly handled. They could have publicly clutched pearls and yet had a rotating run of actors who would gladly step into that role and show their big packages. They could have played both sides for the middle and had a lucrative gimmick for a while.

Their mistake was that they shamed so many people that the curious among us lost interest. They also thought Jesse would bring back patrons, but I think that both (a) everyone who wanted to see this play, and (b) everyone who wanted to see Jesse's massive cock, has had ample opportunity to do one or the other, or both, before now.

Tovah Feldshuh flashing her panties is indeed the only salvation for grosses woes.

I suggest adding the moment to a dramatic seduction scene between Rosie Brice and Nick

It would certainly add new meaning to "Who Taught Her Everything?"

No, r463, r358 is not right.

[quote] Arlene was cold to all of the seat fillers after Dorothy’s death, Phyllis Newman, Suzy Knickerbocker, Sue Oakland, etc.

Where do you get that? It doesn’t show on screen. And the very first seat-filler for Dorothy, Kitty Carlisle, was one of Arlene’s best friends. Sue Oakland played the game well but didn’t have the name value to warrant being in the panel. Maybe that annoyed Arlene.

Yes, R358 is right, and especially in the case of the overpraised Merrily, which you tired queens rhapsodize about endlessly as if it’s something and as if it ever mattered. It did not and does not. And it’s going to flop. Again. And then maybe you’ll all finally shut the fuck up about it. Or rant about it until you finally die. I don’t really give a shit.

Arlene & Kitty

[quote] Or rant about it until you finally die.

Or we could rant about it until you finally die.

R358 is right.

R470 If you don't give a shit why are you going on a rant about it? Why don't you shut the fuck up period? Do everyone a big favor and stay off theater threads.

How so, r473?

[quote]Girl From the North Country returned money to its investors? That surprises me.

What's the source for that information? Sounds impossible to be true.

And, r448, while we're at it, who here ever said that GIRL FROM THE NORTH COUNTRY wasn't a musical?

Everybody is now being far choosier about what will bring them out to spend their money. When Stephen Spielberg can't attract audiences to leave their homes, even with a familiar title like West Side Story or a heart-warming family drama like The Fabelmans for $15, is it any surprise that non one wants to spend their hard-earned $75 on something called Ain't No Mo?

Could somebody translate Ain't No Mo into standard English? I know what it means of course but I'm having trouble with an exact translation.

Ain't no mo = Isn't any more.

What more do you need, r479?

[quote]Simple, just add full frontal nudity to all these shows. Worked for "Take me Out".

[quote]No, it didn't. It had under 50% capacity last week.

I'm pretty sure the poster was referring to the initial run, not the return engagement.

[quote]The whole nude thing with TMO was badly handled....Their mistake was that they shamed so many people that the curious among us lost interest. They also thought Jesse would bring back patrons, but I think that both (a) everyone who wanted to see this play, and (b) everyone who wanted to see Jesse's massive cock, has had ample opportunity to do one or the other, or both, before now.

Agreed, 100 percent.

But what isn't any more?

Collectively, Broadway deserves this shit storm. They used up all their goodwill with premium ticket. Prices gouging the public every chance they got.

[Quote] Funny Girl starring an actress who was all but cancelled and accused of racism is selling out

Hard to find an actor or anyone else who [italic] hasn’t [/italic] been accused of racism

Diane C. Phelan who covers Cinderella in ITW and has gone on numerous times would make a lovely Clara opposite Ruthie in Piazza at Encores.

Chills

Audiences - black or white - don’t go to show to [italic] support [/italic] anything. They go to see a show.

Damn, those kids were NOT attractive except for Donna Elio and Tom ???, the guy with dark brown hair. The rest looked like theater nerds doing their Plainview High spring musical.

Girl From The North Country was a total financial flop.

“Simple, just add full frontal nudity to all these shows. Worked for "Take me Out".

No, it didn't. It had under 50% capacity last week.”

Wasn’t Jesse Williams out with COVID?

Again, unless you're an investor, why care if a show didn't earn its money back for investors?

Who the fuck goes to a show, likes it a lot, then comes home to decide "Oh...I liked that show and thought it was terrific but Data Lounge informs me that it didn't make a profit for its investors so now I'm not gonna like the show and consider it bad because rich people lost money on it...."

WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Re R486's vid: Does Jim Walton have abnormally long arms? Or is it his posture?

I'm a MERRILY OBC devotee. But I can see why it flopped in 1981. The production looks like a bad high school show. It even is set in a gym. Yes, that's the point: a cautionary tale told by the younger generation. But, I could see how the general audience would be WTF? Why am I paying to see Sally's high school pageant?

For the record, Marc Shaiman DID post on DL several years ago for about a month or two. Unfortunately, his reception by the DLers was - surprise, surprise, not very warm. There were some kind souls who posted, but the bitchiness pervaded and, in my opinion, was unwarranted. However, I was surprised to see how well Marc responded to the barbs. He didn't take shit from anyone, and it was obvious that his sense of humor was strong, that the criticisms didn't faze him, and that he did not take himself too seriously. While my view of him may conflict with what others have said about his temperament, I really grew to appreciate him as an artist who's constantly out there without a net.

And also, for the record, I liked SLIH, especially Adrianna Hicks as Sugar, J. Harrison Ghee as Daphne, and especially Kevin Del Aguila as Osgood.

[quote] So Black audiences did show up.

No. [italic]Some[/italic] Black people showed up.

As has been mentioned, Black people, or any non-white group, don't just show up to something because they see their faces. It has to resonate. AIN'T NO MO didn't. In fact, many Black people don't like the show and aren't recommending it. It's only a certain small demographic of younger Black theater-makers who are vocal about the show. Think [title of show] on a MUCH smaller scale.

For instance, church ladies are deeply, irreparably offended by the opening church scene. It turns them off from the start, and there is no recovery. If you're offending the church ladies, ain't no way you're gonna reach the wider congregation. There goes any possibilities of group sales.

[quote]The production looks like a bad high school show. It even is set in a gym.

The Original Broadway Production of MERRILY was NOT set in a gym. The opening and closing scenes were set a a graduation happening in what might have been a gym, but the body of the show happened in other settings.

For me, the major flaw in that production (besides the horrible sets and costumes) was casting young actors to play the leads. Audiences will suspend belief when older actors play young (think VANITIES) but will not accept young people playing characters 20+ years older than they are. Not sure why this is true, but it's been proven again and again.

Is it sacrilegious to say that I prefer INTO THE WOODS Jr. to the full show, which I've always found a bore after intermission.

Jr. is just Act I abridged and far more enjoyable as a result, IMO.

I recently saw a middle school production (friend's kid) and found it quite enjoyable. It didn't hurt that the kids were good actors/singers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that ITW works best as a 60-minute show for kids by kids.

Like JOSEPH AND THE AMAZING TECHNICOLOR DREAMCOAT. I cringe when I've seen adults perform it, including the '90s proshot with Donny Osmond.

Thank you r486. That was an unexpected treasure.

[quote] The Original Broadway Production of MERRILY was NOT set in a gym.

I've seen the entire bootleg. I've seen all the production photos. The set design is 100% in the construct of a high school gym and different scenes take place within this framework. The concept is of "teens putting on a show."

Similarly, the set design of the current FUNNY GIRL is the back alley of an industrial warehouse area of supposedly Brooklyn, and it never changes, even if the individual scenes are set in different locations.

Small shows like Ain’t No Mo belong Off Broadway (if that still exists).

No one wants to pay premium prices for a small show like that no matter how good it may be.

Plus it likely got swallowed by the theatre.

I recently saw the lovely Kimberly Akimbo—totally got swallowed by the theatre. It too belongs Off Bway

R358 is not totally wrong. I agree to a certain extent. However r358 neglects the fact that reputations grow (thanks to show recordings) and people realize afterward what they missed.

Years ago, the late 50s to be exact, Brother Theodore kept the Orpheum Theatre alive. Now watch the Orpheum go the Variety Arts way. Oh, who is Brother Theodore. Watch the David Letterman shows from the late 80s - early 90s on You Tube. Christ! He was a fucking unfunny bore....

R480, I am glad r479 asked. I seriously thought Ain't No MO meant: I'M NOT GAY....(mo meaning homo)

Also, exactly how many shows can we see with black men in evening gowns? Enough already.

[quote] Is it sacrilegious to say that I prefer INTO THE WOODS Jr. to the full show, which I've always found a bore after intermission.

IGNORE THE TROLL.

R422, What shows besides Leopoldstadt and KPop don't have Black actors?

I just took a look of what's playing on Broadway--out of 37 shows, 14 have multiple Black leads. Eight are what I would call Black-themed--in some way about Black identity. And I'm not including something like *The Lion King*

The greater New York area (i.e. who could conceivably spend a night on the town to see a show) is 85 percent not-Black. How interested do you think they are in the Black experience? Eight shows worth? No other group is so heavily represented--Leopoldstadt is, arguably, the only white experience play, though maybe you could make an argument for Funny Girl. I guess you could argue that KPop is an Asian experience show, though I'd disagree and there's nothing for the Latino communities or indigenuous.

And, honestly, there's been little effort to make white people feel welcome at some of these shows. This isn't the era of Dream Girls where the idea is to cast as wide a net as possible.

So, if you're sending out a message to the majority of your potential audience that this show isn't about them or for them, don't be surprised when they go see something else.

For the record, GIRL FROM THE NORTH COUNTRY was thrice a financial and audience flop.

1) Pre-pandemic sales were anemic, then the shutdown happened. 2) It opened during Broadway's return, then shut down due to lack of sales. 3) Then it reopened for a limited number of weeks prior to the Tony cut-off to get voters in. Mass audiences didn't show up each time.

[quote] But after 2+ years of steady white-bashing, are white people honestly expected to continue to line up and pay money to immerse themselves in more?

Please list the plays in the past 2+ years that have actively engaged in "steady white bashing"? Or in your mind, does a play with Black main characters automatically equal "white bashing"?

'Gus' from Breaking Bad was in the original cast of Merrily We Roll Along?

He may have a point regarding Merrily, r500, but not with FOLLIES. For one, it wasn't a *massive* flop.

[quote]Of course the originals were massive flops so they couldn’t have been that great

For a 50 year old not great flop, it seems to still garner productions and discussion on theatre boards. I don't know of another musical where the original production retains such a mystique about it.

How noble. Will and Jada have bought out a performance of Ain't No Mo. Because no one can stand to be in the same room with either of them.

[Quote] For a 50 year old not great flop, it seems to still garner productions and discussion on theatre boards.

The discussion is mainly among old theatre queens. No one else could care less

R506 I meant that after 2+ years of steady white bashing in our culture and media, why would anyone expect white people to show up at any play that wants to dole out some more, or a play where the author decides to make a curtain speech deriding white people just a little bit more, or a play where those involved go on social media to explicitly tell white people this isn't for them, but they need to buy tickets and support it regardless.

[quote]The discussion is mainly among old theatre queens. No one else could care less

Well, smell r510.

Eldergays across the pond, did any of you see Bebe in Kiss of the Spiderwoman? I've never been a huge fan of her rather stiff singing voice (though I think it suited her well in the Chicago revival), but she obviously must have been sensational in her dance numbers.

I recently did a workshop of a new play where I was the only white person involved. No. Really. I was. There were several heated discussions amongst the younger actors about how stupid white audiences are and how so many dumb white people say they don't see color. They felt totally comfortable white bashing in front of me and several of them completely ignored me but we're warm with each other. I never engaged in any of the discussions because I signed on to work on a play but never agreed to debates on race relations. It was a miserable experience. I cashed the check but would never work with them again. But it did open my eyes to how entitled some diversity actors feel.

R506, Oh come on, Jeremy O Harris and Lynn Nottage are busily blaming white people in marketing for not reaching the right audiences. There have been multiple incidents over the past several years which make it really clear that white people are resented and blamed. I'm not going to say it's without justification--that's another conversation--but it's not putting out the welcome mat for white audiences, who continue to make up the bulk of theatre audiences.

There's a naivete about how business works--a lot of the complainers have been coddled in academia--where tickets are cheap, runs are short and identity politics are swell. Lecturing people is fine and dandy.

But it doesn't make a profit. And Broadway investors like to make money or at least not lose their entire investment. When you're charging $200 a ticket and trying to make a $1 a week, you need shows people really want to see and that means that they want to be entertained, engaged, amused. And if you're going to be provocative you need to do it in a way that excites audiences and makes them want to talk about it.

Among other things, cancel culture means that careful white people do not want to talk about Black issues. They know darn well that thoughtful concerned nods of agreement are about as far as their participation is supposed to go.

$1 million a week, not $1. Yeesh.

Also, I thought the issues with Follies is not that it was a flop, per se, but too expensive a production. Merrily was a bona fide flop. And I think the casting conception is why. Just didn't work.

R511 - Then you are inaccurately conflating a segment of culture and media, and the rants of the inane Twitter mob such as Jeremy O Harris, with what is actually on the stages. Virtually none of the Black plays in the past two years have engaged in "white bashing." Some have tackled coping with the reality of racism in our wider culture, but few have pointed their fingers saying "You evil white people!" AIN'T NO MO, for instance, barely mentions white people, with the exception of the trans-racial character. Black people are its main target.

Your misinformed comment seems mainly rooted in fear, resentment, or both.

Oh dear.....I thought AIN'T NO MO was a biographical play about Larry Fine.

I believe you, r514. The people obsessed with safe spaces and pronouns and DEI lectures have absolutely no problem with allowing white-bashing in the room. It's baffling. And the union seems to be terrified of addressing these brazenly hostile work environments.

r517 How is it conflation when in some cases it's the actual playwrights making the comments? Why would you want to support the work of someone who insults you and says he doesn't actually want you to go and see his play?

r518...I thought it was a Southern based melodrama about Lindsey Graham.

R215 - Yes, the blame whitey game and lecturing is indeed happening off-stage and Twitter, but less so in the on-stage material.

The only show that explicitly lectured its audience was Billy Porter's abysmal revision of THE LIFE. Now, THAT production was like a woke Twitter rant run amok.

Jeremy O and Lynn are wrong and misrepresenting what happens in marketing rooms. But they are 2 Black people who have a Twitter mob who jump on the bandwagon. Not every Black person, playwright, and theatermaker agrees with them.

Michael R. Jackson, for instance, thinks, the WE SEE YOU WHITE AMERICAN THEATER manifesto is ridiculous.

R517 Because you are conflating the comments of a few prominant vocal playwrights with any Black-themed play that has premiered in the past couple years.

You are not able to separate the comments of a few artists from the actual art being presented.

[quote]You are not able to separate the comments of a few artists from the actual art being presented.

Why should I? If someone says something which insults me, why should I support their work? You keep trying to pretend that the insulting comments aren't coming from the artists themselves.

For those who have seen Ain’t No Mo, is it anything like George Wolfe’s The Colored Museum?

R524, You're clearly of middling intelligence, as most people harboring your level of racial resentment are. How many of the Black-themed plays of the past 2+ years have you sat in the theater and seen?

(I predict your response will be either radio silence, or a deflection.)

We had a DEI discussion that lasted several hours during rehearsals for a play I was in. The Black actors brought up so many examples of unpleasant/unfair/frustrating/discouraging things about our business and they all agreed these were examples of racism. The white actors sat there speechless because every anecdote was something that happens universally, to everyone (who isn't a star) in theater. You just nod, because to interject would be pointless.

R527 - I've also heard of this. Were they mainly younger Black actors or seasoned professionals?

Does the fact that 80% of all Broadway shows, historically, (or more than that depending on who you talk to) don't recoup have any bearing in the discussion?

Or that message shows typically play only to audiences that already agree with the message?

Wow, the right wing hate on this board is really getting intense. You can tell there are posters have no interest in Broadway or Theatre, but just are here to stir up fights. Please go back to your crazy right wing boards....We want to gossip about FOLLIES.

Well, if they werent repeatedly producing shit, they might get it back.

"You just nod, because to interject would be pointless."

Exactly. Right now multiple people on Twitter are bashing The Music Man, and their white audiences, because it is a successful white show they absolutely do not approve of.....believe me, that new head of Playbill has tried to stir up racist shit herself along those lines.

Would I respond to any of their vitriol with points I and others mentioned here? Absolutely not. I have been ratioed by faceless MAGA idiots and simply hit the button to remove myself from the conversation, and stopped the notifications. End of story.

However dealing with theater queens and their woke, but still racist agendas? It's not worth it at all.

Sorry, missed the memo. What does DEI stand for?

r526 Hilarious to accuse me of deflection when you're the one who's repeatedly avoided answering the simple core question: why someone should buy a ticket for a play written by someone who insults them and tells them he doesn't even want them to go to his play.

But to answer your question, I'm British, so none of them because if you really think any of them sounded interesting enough to warrant a plane ticket, you're insane. But thank you for resorting to the ad hominem and proving you can't actually argue the point being made.

DEI is diversity, equity and inclusion.

Way down...

Thanks, R535...You are a Hal Prince

[quote]For the record, Marc Shaiman DID post on DL several years ago for about a month or two. Unfortunately, his reception by the DLers was - surprise, surprise, not very warm. There were some kind souls who posted, but the bitchiness pervaded and, in my opinion, was unwarranted.

He was here and cool. He was here while he was putting the finishing touches to the score for "Hairspray". He said he hoped the movie was a hit because he wanted to buy a beach house. It was a hit but never heard if he got his house.

R517, I mentioned two Black playwrights who were complaining specifically about the marketing of Ain't No More. So, no, not an ignorant Twitter mob from nowhere, but people who are in the business and clearly play blame games.

You don't get to play No True Scotsmen here--Harris and Nottage are prominent members of the Black theatrical community and it's not like Harris has backed off blaming white people for his play flopping twice (instead of, say, recognizing that he wrote an unlikeable and misogynistic play--seriously, the black woman wanting her white male partner to sexually brutalize her is all kinds of yuck. He may have had a point to make, but very few women of any hue want to watch something like that. Same with a number of men. But, nope, it was all about audience outreach.)

So you can say the newer Black identity productions aren't like that, but, honestly, a lot of the damage has been done and continues to be done. You, in fact, are falling into the same kind of blame game. I've pointed out some basic facts and, yes, drawn some conclusions from them--you don't refute them or reinterpret them. Instead you attack my character for pointing out that the market on Broadway for Black identity stories is currently saturated.

Or to flip this around--if every production, but two, had multiple Jewish leads and a sizeable minority of those plays were about Jewish identity, you would see a saturation point there even though there's a large Jewish population in New York and a strong history of supporting theatre. Right now there are two shows catering to that group--Funny Girl and Leopoldstadt--both are doing well, in part, because it's not a saturated market. Of course, there are other people attending those shows, but you do have a base there and those shows are helped by it.

By the way, there are more Jews (18 percent) than Blacks (15 percent) in the greater New York Metropolitan area. But if you were running 8-9 shows on Broadway about Jewish identity, you'd be hitting a saturation point there as well.

R534 So if you've seen NONE of the Black-themed plays of the past two years, you have neither basis nor back-up for your initial core statement:

[quote] But after 2+ years of steady white-bashing, are white people honestly expected to continue to line up and pay money to immerse themselves in more?

You cannot accurately state how seeing any of the plays is "immersing oneself in more white bashing." The reality is that none of the plays are an "immersion in more white bashing." You are merely speculating, i.e. speaking out of your ass -- pardon me, "arse."

To answer your rather vague question:

[quote] Why someone should buy a ticket for a play written by someone who insults them and tells them he doesn't even want them to go to his play.

Answer: You don't have to. But who is the "someone who insults" you're speaking of? What exactly is the insult? What is the play they don't want you to go to? Jeremy O Harris doesn't currently have a play on Broadway. The only thing Lynn Nottage has right now is MJ. Jordan E Cooper doesn't even mention white people in his statement; he's asking anyone to come.

check out cooper's "manifesto" speech onstage and get back to us.

No one can dispute the emergence of black-themed plays in the past few years. Also, no one can doubt the angry utterances of a few young black playwrights concerning racism in theater. If they would like to express this anger, they should do so as often as they want. However, if this is the message of their works, they should not be surprised if people don't want to pay a great deal of money to be lectured to. We get that for free everywhere we look.

R539, not refuting anything in your statement. But you are equating the words of TWO people, Harris and Nottage, with the idea that ALL of Black Broadway is in the business of blaming whitey. That is simply not the case. There are many Black Broadway professionals out there who disagree behind closed doors. They are just afraid to say anything. Or are silent. You don't see Audra, Stokes, George C. Wolfe, Michael R. Jackson, or Keenan Scott II out here pointing fingers, do you?

For the record, I personally hated both Slave Play and Ain't No Mo with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. They are but two opinions, and gross ones. Nonetheless, one cannot dismiss the entirety of the current slate of Black productions as an "Immersion of white-bashing." It's patently false. The majority of the Black writers, directors, and actors are not out there "white-bashing." That's merely in your addled, delusion, resentful mind.

[quote]So if you've seen NONE of the Black-themed plays of the past two years, you have neither basis nor back-up for your initial core statement:

That's not my post though. You do understand there are multiple posters on this site, right? r520, r524 and r534 are my posts on this subject.

But I'll still answer. Once again - it's not about the content of the plays. You keep banging on about that and totally missing the point, and I'm starting to suspect it's wilful. It's about the comments the artists involved - mostly the playwrights but also other creatives and cast - make, which turn people off from buying a ticket. In this particular case, the play is not the thing.

R540, You're speaking to more than one person. I'm not British, and, yes, I've seen some recent plays. I'm not the reason Strange Loop and Ain't No More are closing. You need to quit blaming audiences for not sharing your taste. I won't call you an anti-Semite if you don't want to see Fiddler on the Roof or don't connect to it.

Broadway is a business--it's not there to make people watch shows that don't interest them. Getting upset and accusing people of being racists for pointing this out is childish. Grow up.

[quote] However, if this is the message of their works...

That's my point. This is NOT the message of their works. There have been few "lectures" in the material of the past 2+ years, except for Billy Porter's idiotic LIFE.

To you who made this statement:

[quote] it's not about the content of the plays. You keep banging on about that and totally missing the point, and I'm starting to suspect it's wilful. It's about the comments the artists involved - mostly the playwrights but also other creatives and cast - make, which turn people off from buying a ticket. In this particular case, the play is not the thing.

Yes, this is totally understandable. I get why people would not want to see another Jeremy O Harris play. I don't even want to see another of his plays! He's insufferable, a shit-stirrer, and totally wrong in his accusations and his approach. I personally disliked both SLAVE PLAY and DADDY for their sloppy writing and disgusting politics.

However, my point is centered on the content. My point is not centered on the misinformed comments from the artists involved. I agree their comments are unhelpful and needlessly finger-pointing.

The ONLY comment I refute on here is the generalization that the current set of Black plays are about "paying to see white-bashing." That indeed refers to content. That poster's specific observation is inaccurate and misinformed.

As for my personal belief: STRANGE LOOP had as much of a run as it was going to get. It's not a mass market entertainment. AIN'T NO MO should have opened up off-Broadway. It was a producer's mistake to bring it to Broadway. Anyone who is blaming you personally (or white people generally) for their closing is delusional.

Broadway shows with all-Black or primarily Black creators and casts since the reopening of Broadway last year:

Pass Over

Lackawanna Blues

Chicken & Biscuits

Thoughts of a Colored Man

Ain't Too Proud

Trouble In Mind

Tina

Clyde's

Slave Play

Skeleton Crew

MJ the Musical

for colored girls.......

A Strange Loop

The Piano Lesson

Death of a Salesman

Topdog/Underdog

Ain't No Mo'

The Ohio State Murders

Between Riverside and Crazy

Produce entertaining shows and people will come. People, especially those on vacation, would rather sit through shows such as " The Music Man." which is entertaining respite from all of the shit of real life, than would want to see a show which turned into a lecture. They can get lectures from their bosses, spouses, and social media.

To the two posters who are sniping back-and-forth at each other, there are other people here. And we hate you. You’ve each made your point. Now stop.

So, bring up a new topic, bitch at R549.

Can we get back to some Broadway dick talk?

I, for one, would love screengrabs of Tyler Weaks' dick.

Or Casey Garvin's.

Exactly, r549.

Suggestions for the next thread title? I like "The Ain't No Mo ... ain't no mo Edition."

"...with a dress cut down to there."

I’d actually love to see Aint No Mo but Ain’t No Way I’m paying Bway theatre prices for it.

Maybe if it ever come back in a small theatres

I don’t think Bway is a place for plays anymore

[Quote] Eldergays across the pond, did any of you see Bebe in Kiss of the Spiderwoman?

How weird, I was just thinking of asking this!

I was on a college summer backpacking trip around Europe with friends. We all went to see Spiderwoman in London. Bebe was great but very cold. We all thought the musical was so stupid and had such cliched lyrics that we all made fun of it while touring around Europe.

[Quote] STRANGE LOOP had as much of a run as it was going to get.

Strange Loop is an incredible show. It’s subject matter (Gay Black guy problems) and the fact that it’s not family friendly killed it. I think it could do well touring the major US cities.

Does anyone blame gays for not supporting Strange Loop enough?

The only way gays would attend " A Strange Loop" en masse is if the music were written by Sondheim and Patti were playing the gay black man

R558 - [quote]How weird, I was just thinking of asking this!

[quote]I was on a college summer backpacking trip around Europe with friends. We all went to see Spiderwoman in London. Bebe was great but very cold. We all thought the musical was so stupid and had such cliched lyrics that we all made fun of it while touring around Europe.

I can see how Bebe would read as 'cold' on stage. Served her well as Velma in Chicago and perhaps in the title song of Spiderwoman, but maybe not the rest of Aurora?

I was in middle school when I saw Chita in the national tour of Spiderwoman, so I'm relying upon decades old memories, but I recall being utterly captivated by Cheets -- her presence, her precision, her sense of humor and playfulness, her ability to be warm and glamorous (but with a razor's edge just beneath the surface.)

For all of its faults, A Strange Loop had that hilarious takedown of Tyler Perry movies.

R563 - agreed. I liked (didn't love) A Strange Loop, but the Tyler Perry elements -- and that entire gospel section were fantastic.

[quote]Strange Loop is an incredible show. It’s subject matter (Gay Black guy problems) and the fact that it’s not family friendly killed it. I

Also the fact that its Tony-nominated star apparently has had a great deal of trouble getting through the show on a regular basis, to the point where reportedly he has actually left IN THE MIDDLE OF PERFORMANCES on multiple occasions -- something that's virtually unheard of on Broadway.

And he didn't even win the Tony!

[quote]Also the fact that its Tony-nominated star apparently has had a great deal of trouble getting through the show on a regular basis, to the point where reportedly he has actually left IN THE MIDDLE OF PERFORMANCES on multiple occasions -- something that's virtually unheard of on Broadway.

So, he wouldn't be the best choice to be Jean Valjean in our new updated and re-imagined production of Les Miserables?

r552, I posted the videos two threads back (though all I got was bitching about WeTransfer), so you could have made screenshots yourself.

r560, you must not have heard (lucky you). White cis gays are to blame for everything.

R560. I’m a white eldergay and I tried to see A Separate Loop on three occasions, but each time Spivey was out. While I realize the understudies received enthusiastic responses, when I’m paying Broadway prices and the star is being touted as the likely Tony winner (and I suspect the frequency of absences played a role in his losing the award—it may be that voters couldn’t get to one of the performances he actually gave), I’m not willing to take the chance. Somehow, the casts of The Skin of Our Teeth, Fat Ham, How I Kearned to Drive, and An Argument for the Existence of God managed to make it to theaters the nights I went in May (oh, there were two understudies in Skin—playing roles so small that they would have been considered chorus if it were a musical).

Speaking of going woke, in the new Merrily revival, they cast a black child to play Jonathan Groff and Katie Rose Clarke’s son.

On an unrelated note, how is the new Sondheim book everyone seems to have discussed last week?

Can I just take a second to thank all of you who also don't enjoy Audra's vocals for saying so? I thought I was the only one and that those feelings are not allowed.

It's like we're all supposed to love her, given all of her Tony wins, but I don't really. The voice has usually felt too heavy and thick for me....in a deliberate way. It's certainly well-trained but I feel like she could use it differently and just chooses not to most of the time, if that makes sense.

I hated her as Deena in the Seth R 2001 Dreamgirls concert, but I liked her at the end of the Barbara Cook Kennedy Center Honors concert leading the choir in the Candide song. There are places she could work, but I haven't seen most of them. It seems like she was good in Ragtime, though, right?

Beautiful woman and a good actress though.

Benanti WAS bad in She Loves Me, thank you! Speaking some truths here on this thread :) Amazing Gyspy, hilarious Melania...but a total ??? there.

Have any of you seen Jane Krakowski live? She can sing and move but doesn't seen especially incredible, unless featured well (Ally McBeal, 30 ROCK). I like her....but not all her vocals.

I saw Krakowski in Nine and She Loves Me. She had pitch problems in Nine that ruined her song for me. She was fine in She Loves Me but didn't blow me away. No one did. I love She Loves Me, but no one in the last revival of She Loves Me made much of an impression on me. Benanti's performance was too calculated. You could see her thinking about her delivery and laughs. She wasn't really listening to the other actors in the scenes . Plus, I hate the way she sings in her upper register. I loved her in Gypsy and Women on the Verge.

Except for the synthesizer in the orchestra, the revival of She Loves Me in the 90s was better all around, especially the direction (even though it was the same director) and casting). The earlier production was less frenetic. I saw Frantantoni, who was very good, but I wish I had been able to see Judy Kuhn in it. The clips in the the press real seem much more honest to me than the performances in 2016.

Benanti's Eliza Dolittle was pretty good vocally (accent not consistent in the dialogues scenes though), but the music director or the main director must have told her to hold back vocally (and energy-wise) on "Show Me", which also was less fiery on the recording with Lauren Ambrose. Hell, that one of Eliza's showiest numbers, one which Julie Andrews slayed.

Audra and also Danny Burstein have been out of a number of shows I've attended I don't know if he has the reputation of no-shows that she has, but maybe he should.

He was great in Follies. So glad I saw him.

One problem is that this major outreach to black audiences hasn’t been thoughtfully done. The trajectory seems to go as this: an ambitious black playwright writes a “boohoo” victim narrative to get into a prestigious drama school that is approved by a demonstrative admissions committee. Said playwright writes a “boohoo” play that gets picked up a demonstrative producer and premieres to demonstrative critics and a virtually empty theater.

Why? Because they made a show for their ego and not an audience.

I bet if Tyler Perry produced a splashy play — or better yet, musical — based on his popular characters, cast some notable black stars, and using his sensibilities, it would be pretty successful. There are lots of popular black shows on the chitlin circuit. I’m sure they could find success with a northern black community, especially when it comes to middle aged women, which has always been a strong demo for Broadway. That community likes more sentimental, romantic, and religious material.

AINT No Mo and Slave Play seems to be targeted to the young black community that points the finger of blame. Do you think that group has the disposable income to go to that show? And if they do, do you think they’d want to spend it on that?

And if the show is intended for “the people who need the message the most”, they can get the exact weird mixed message that “racism is the worst problem in the world but white people are forever stained with the sin of racism” in a Marvel movie. And in that same movie, they also get action, adventure, and large CGI spectacles.

These shows aren’t for anyone but the black creatives and white elitists who make them.

R575 - Everyone on here seems to hate the more recent She Loves Me revival. I'll fully admit I'm too young to have seen the early 90s revival and that I had zero exposure to the show before seeing the more recent revival, but I absolutely loved the 2016 revival. Loved Laura Benanti, Zachary Levi, Jane Krakowski, Gavin Creel, the jewel box set, the lovely and charming score conducted expertly by Paul Gemignani. It all worked so well for me. I left the theatre with a big, dumb grin plastered across my face.

I agree that the market must be saturated; how many black-cast shows can Broadway support?

Out of the 15 offers on TDF tonight, nine are black-themed to some degree or another:

1776

Ain’t No Mo

Between Riverside and Crazy

The Collaboration

Death of a Salesman

Some Like it Hot

A Strange Loop

Take Me Out

TopDog/Underdog

The young people of color who you think might be the audience for these plays doesn't need them. They get together and talk about these issues for free. Who wants to sit in comfortable cramped theater seats and pay money for it?

[quote]Everyone on here seems to hate the more recent She Loves Me revival. I'll fully admit I'm too young to have seen the early 90s revival and that I had zero exposure to the show before seeing the more recent revival, but I absolutely loved the 2016 revival.

I agree.

'uncomfortable'

R578 I don't care for her voice, either. She ruined this trio with Marin Mazzie and Judy Kuhn for me.

Sorry, that was meant for 573.

R584, Audra’s voice is like crushed velvet.

Ah! The magic of Spanx.

I’ve seen many productions of She Loves Me, though not the 90s Roundabout. It’s very common for people to love the show on first viewing, regardless of the quality of the production. And people relate to the show in different ways. For me, it works best when it feels like a showcase of very ordinary people living very ordinary lives set to extraordinary music and storytelling.

So, the 2016 version didn’t work for me: the brittle Benanti flipping abruptly to operatic tones, the campy Creel thrilling to crotch joke, the overly ingratiating Levi missing everything in the script about Georg, and whatever the fuck American take on Ilona Krakowski was trying to pull off. However, my partner was seeing it for the first time and loved it. My jaw dropped when he later commented about a local production that it just wasn’t as good.

Sergius on ATC has deemed SLIH a success, as usual with his lofty, constipated tone that seems to allow no disagreement. Who is he? (He quite enjoyed the show.)

Krakowski and Danny Burstein are two of the most overrated performers, at least in musicals.

I can't stand Audra's singing either. She oversings all the time, and I just don't like the sound of her heavy vibrato. I really think this is an emperor's new clothes situation. No one listening blind to that voice would think it was one of the great ones.

[Quote] Can I just take a second to thank all of you who also don't enjoy Audra's vocals for saying so? I thought I was the only one and that those feelings are not allowed.

You fucking racist

Kelly should’ve done she loves me, and Laura should’ve done kiss me, Kate

No R474. Go fuck yourself, dumb cunt.

As if anyone listens to R474 thread policing. Lol. Shut up! Fucking clown. 🤡🤡🤡☠️☠️☠️

I saw STRANGE LOOP at Playwrights off-Broadway. Didn't love it - to me it was another meta-musical, albeit with a black navel-gazer protagonist this time. Flash forward and I see the STRANGE LOOP performance at the Tonys. Who knew the guy who did it first was FAR superior? I'd heard he was a nightmare to deal with, but hell - they should have dealt!

Audra's voice in her soprano register is exceptionally beautiful, IMHO, and even allowing or differences in taste, I'm surprised anyone feels otherwise. BUT she does do that thing where she REALLY exaggerates the register break whenever she switches back and forth between her belt register and her soprano. I'll bet she could smooth out the transitions if she wanted to, but I get the impression that she does that on purpose because she thinks it sounds dramatic and exciting, and I'm sure some people agree with her while others find it very unpleasant and annoying.

Benanti was all wrong for Amalia but it didn't help that she was costumed and wigged to look like a 1960s executive secretary at the Seagrams Building.

Bajour!

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