Lucy Letby: Baby-Murdering Psychopath (Allegedly)

Please link the previous thread OP

Does this work? I've only just got my head around [italic]italics[/italic]!

That’s scary. She totally looks like the type who has “Live, Laugh, Love” plastered over her entire house.

She looks like Drew Barrymore.

It's odd that the older thread is closed; there are only 10 replies.

[quote]Some of the babies who were murdered, survived 1, 2 or even 3 prior murder attempts before succumbing to various attacks, including being injected with air or insulin.

One may accuse her of many things, but lack of tenacity is not one of them.

Few things shock me nowadays, but this story genuinely does shock me. I simply cannot compute. Why? How? Did she hurt any animals as a child, as the typical serial killer does? How many female serial killers ARE there anyway, especially young ones?

Everything about this case is so baffling to me.

She can't be sane to do what she's done, surely? Not that I want her to be declared insane - she needs to rot in prison - but I can't fathom a 'normal' person doing what she's done. It's beyond macabre.

Did you see the Post-it note that was plastered all over the papers today? She wrote stuff like that she did it, that she did it because she wasn't good enough (huh?), that she'll never know what it's like to have a family. I just cannot compute that kind of reasoning (assuming that she did do it).

Such a bizarre and inexplicable story.

She's been found guilty of murdering 7 babies and trying to kill 6 more. After a 22-day deliberation by the jury and a 10 month trial (the longest murder trial in the UK).

I guarantee she's an evangelical Christian.

There's a long history of "killer nurses" for lack of a better name for them. Male and female serial killers both seem to be drawn to this kind of crime.

There's also a long history, back in the bad old days, of women taking in children for money - sort of a fostering thing - and then killing them and pocketing the cash.

Nurses of today are psychopaths. The most drugged up profession on the planet.

UK here. I was training as a nurse when Beverley Allitt was convicted of similar crimes. The sense of revulsion was intense and widespread, and the government of the day announced changes to the way student nurses’ psychological suitability for the role was to be assessed. There have been several tragedies since, so something isn’t working.

There needs to be a public enquiry with powers to make recommendations, The fact that the consultant paediatricians raised their suspicions about Letby with hospital management, and were threatened with disciplinary action unless they apologised to her is deeply concerning. There have always been cover ups in the NHS. It’s time for that culture to end.

[quote]She totally looks like the type who has “Live, Laugh, Love” plastered over her entire house.

Close! The prosecution showed pictures of her bedroom and it was decorated with wall art that read: “Leave sparkles wherever you go”.

Here's a Post It note that police found in her house.

Reminds me of R. Crumb's crazy brother, who also drew comics but gradually as his mental illness worsened, the comics became pages and pages of densely written text just like this. I forget what he had... schizophrenia?

Yeah, these Nurse Serial Killers are all fucking crazy. Sometimes they kill babies, sometimes they kill the elderly, they're all obviously insane.

One thing I haven't see in the coverage is how the assaults have affected the babies who survived. Being born so prematurely does leave children with a high risk of disability but it hasn't been widely reported.

The cover up at the hospital and NHS culture in general is appalling.

I work in the NHS and have the seen the grievance process abused to its core. The professional bodies/unions need to get their act together and appreciate some people deserve to be sacked. I remember one nurse who generated loads of complaints about racist behaviour which were brushed under the carpet for years. When a new manager came in and tried to deal with it, he accused her of sexual harassment. He was moved to an administrative role and ended up working for the union offices.

And when Letby was removed from clinical duties she was sent to work with the Risk & Governance/Patient Safety, which SHOULD be an independent team who can support areas with managing clinical incidents and improvement. But the management team clearly didn't value their work if they were dumped with a SUSPECTED MURDERER.

A lot of people blaming the management culture and "managers" in general don't realise the Medical Director who the consultants went to and who told them "all emails cease forthwith" is a doctor himself. So many of the executive team would have thought about their personal reputations as well as a organisation as a whole when deliberating what actions to take.

And the culture around the NHS in Britain grinds my gears. So many people accept poor service because it's free and they're doing their best. The government has a lot to answer for but nurses are not angels and doctors aren't superheroes. They're highly trained professionals who do a difficult job and who should be paid properly for it.

In fairness, the vast majority of leadership structures revolve around ass-covering and not due diligence.

And the vast majority of organisations don’t have the literal lives of newborn babies in their hands.

What a disgusting story.

R12

[quote] Described as straight-laced, Letby attended the evangelical Hope City Church and had a close circle of 'churchy' friends

R12

[quote] Described as straight-laced, Letby attended the evangelical Hope City Church and had a close circle of 'churchy' friends

Why are medical professionals permitted to care for patients alone. Especially after one incident involving a patients death?Is this a money concern ? Now this will be litigated and the hospital will be made to pay a fortune to the families. Penny smart, pound foolish?

R7, Letby isn't the first serial killer nurse.

R24, because hospitals are understaffed, especially at night. I believe Letby often worked the night shift.

Just saw this story on the BBC News. Awful.

Nobody's going to double their nursing staff. It has nothing to do with penny wise and pound foolish, it's just common sense.

There have always been serial killer nurses and doctors. We're not doubling up on every medical professional. That's just crazy.

Paying compensation would still be cheaper than doubling up on every med professional which would mean an insane increase in costs. Reminds me of someone who said that every single terrorist suspect should be surveilled - also crazy expensive and who's going to pay for that?

I could see an argument for CCTV which would be a lot cheaper but I suppose there are privacy concerns to do with that.

I agree on staffing, hospitals do not have the resources, nor does it make sense to double team sizes.

Having said that, patient rooms had no cameras? I’m just surprised that a nursery had no cameras, or did I miss something? Did they ever catch her on camera for one of these attacks? R30, I hadn’t thought about privacy. But privacy for a nursery? At a minimum, cameras may have deterred her.

If you read that post-it note, she really acts and writes as though she’s schizophrenic. It sounds like she has a constant and loud inner dialogue on, she’s arguing with herself and shrr we truly hates herself, which is why she hates others so much too. She only knows self-hate, and her hate is so black and intense that she allowed it to come out when she got to decide who lives, who dies. Then each murder seemed to send her through the same mental cycle over and over again. I get it if you hate yourself. I know that pain from my younger years. But to find a way to go from self-loathing to murder of new life? Only the most sick human being could go there.

What I find concerning is that there aren’t mental health campaigns that address homicidal tendencies.

There are hundred of campaigns & resources for those who are suicidal, as there should be, but nothing for homicidal people?

There should be. There should be open discussions about those who want to harm others, & are struggling with those impulses. I understand that it’s an uncomfortable, taboo topic, but it should be addressed and often. .

Killing so many children seems so.....excessive.

One should limit a strong hand of discipline to only the worst pint-sized harlots.

She looks nice.

It's a fucking pity England doesn't have the death penalty

Everything should be connected and monitored. The Internet of things. All hospital rooms should be smart rooms with cameras. Everything that touches a patient or is administered to a patient should be monitored and recorded. I have ADT monitoring my house. Why isn't there a way to monitor my body when I am in the hospital. I should be provided with video of my body throughout surgery. There should be complete and 100% transparency with what happens to my body when I am sedated and unconscious.

[quote]There have always been cover ups in the NHS.

Not to be rude, but cover ups seem kind of endemic to the UK, don't they? cf. Jimmy Savile

R33 and R34 you restore my faith in the Datalounge and in all of mankind.*

Not everyone likes kids.

I can't stand the little monsters but I can count the number of children I've killed on zero fingers.

Why did she do it?

Survey Says: Because She's Insane

Number One answer.

R20? The NHS is NOT free. I pay into it weekly which adds up to 1,000s of pounds a year. You should know this.

We do not pay at the point of service because we pay into it for a LIFETIME. Got it?

I transcribed her note.

On the left hand side:

NOT GOOD ENOUGH [underlined] There are no words I can't breathe. I can't focus everyday for the overwhelming fear / panic I haven't done anything wrong Police Investigation forgot Slander Discrimination Victimisation All getting too much everything Taking over my life everyone I feel very alone + scared What does the future hold How can I get through it How will things every be like they [illegible] I don't deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to Killing me care for them + I am a horrible evil person I don't deserve Mum + Dad Tom + Matt [?] World is better off without me I AM EVIL I DID THIS

On the right hand side:

I am an awful person. I pay everyday for that Kill myself right now I'll never have children or marry. I'll never know what it's like to have a family. Hate myself So much for what this has HATE [circled]

On the far right side:

NO HOPE DESPAIR PANIC FEAR LOST I DID THIS WHY ME

R17, the ramblings of a skizo or autistic

I hope the inmates make her life daily hell

It's likely she'll be put in HMP Low Newton, a maximum security prison that is home to many of the deadliest female killers in recent history. Joanna Dennehy is currently serving there. Rose West used to be but was moved when Dennehy threatened to kill her.

You want to read about a real twisted nurse? Check out Kristen Gilbert. She's probably in the 100s. She preyed on old veterans. All to impress a man. She'd drug them up so they'd crash and then act the hero in front of her ambulance driver boyfriend. Seems these always happen at the less than swanky hospitals. It took her determined fellow nurses to follow through for quite a while to get her caught.

[quote][R20]? The NHS is NOT free. I pay into it weekly which adds up to 1,000s of pounds a year. You should know this. We do not pay at the point of service because we pay into it for a LIFETIME. Got it?

The founding principle of the NHS is that it is free at the point of use. Scotland and Wales have gone further than England with this and made prescriptions free and car parking "free".

The mentality around having a service you don't have to get your card out to pay for is that people are grateful, however poor the service is, especially people on low incomes who know they couldn't afford private health insurance.

The NHS works miracles and provides a phenomenal service most of the time, but when it gets things wrong it is defensive and dishonest. The story about the trust in Glasgow paying a company to monitor the twitter accounts of families who have made complaints should have resulted in sackings.

[quote]Not to be rude, but cover ups seem kind of endemic to the UK, don't they? cf. Jimmy Savile

The BBC, ITV, Channel 4, The Sun, The News Of The World, local authorities, NHS Trusts, police forces, fire services, charities, businesses, trade unions, political parties, parliaments, football clubs.

There is a dreadful cover up culture in the UK, but there's also a strong culture in the UK to investigate cover ups, which is why we know about all of the scandals.

As NHS scandals go, there's been another one rumbling on for years - The Tavistock - but a lot of people don't want to know about it.

Cover up culture is linked to tradition and the class system. Similarly people who were beaten and worse at public school wear their survival like a badge of honour and treat their people in their care like shit as well. See also why the UK media is full of sociopathic bullies. It’s all they know.

No R51, it's linked to self interest.

The managers at the Countess of Chester Hospital did not make decisions based on tradition or class, they made decisions based on self interest, reputational damage and convenience.

Where the class system does come into play is the contempt some consultants have for their patients who question them. Privately educated Adam Kay is a good example of this in his derisory attitude to pregnant women who have researched and prepared their birthing plans, having educated themselves to the risks of child birth or based on their previous experiences of NHS maternity care.

R35, the death penalty is no solution. I would prefer that she spends the rest of her life in prison surrounded by women, many of whom are mothers, always fearing that she will be attacked. If that causes her an ounce of the terror she caused those babies, it will be a just punishment.

[quote] Survey Says: Because She's Insane

Thank you, Captain Tautology.

[quote] Where the class system does come into play is the contempt some consultants have for their patients who question them.

Oh, and you think that doesn’t apply to the administration’s treatment of the patients as well? Tres naive.

[quote]You want to read about a real twisted nurse? Check out Kristen Gilbert. She's probably in the 100s. She preyed on old veterans. All to impress a man. She'd drug them up so they'd crash and then act the hero in front of her ambulance driver boyfriend.

I read some speculation that Lucy was also trying to get the attention of the doctor she was infatuated with. Does this strategy actually work? They couldn't have just learned to give amazing BJs or gotten a boob job or something?

Also, aren't Evangelicals supposed to be pro-life? Apparently that goes out the window as soon as they exit the vagina?

[quote] Oh, and you think that doesn’t apply to the administration’s treatment of the patients as well? Tres naive.

From the Sutton Trust

‘ The trust said that of the country's top doctors, 61% were educated at independent schools, nearly one-quarter at grammar schools (22%) and the remainder (16%) at comprehensives.’

NHS managers including Chief Execs aren’t over represented by privately educated people in the same way.

I know of one case where a consultant was such an appalling bully staff refused to work in operating theatres with him. He was protected and defended the old boys club.

In this case the consultants were the heroes and the villain was a nurse but there are countless other stories where it was the other way around.

All that copypasta yet r57 doesn’t actually address the comment she’s replying to

Typically people who’ve always felt powerless will revel over, and abuse, any power that they do get over others.

All sadism is rooted in powerlessness.

Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

Why aren't there cameras in the NICU?

R15 no one would cover this up. This isn't others' fault so much as one psychopath's. Pattern checks like the one we've seen could be established but would potentially render many false positives. (I mean as in: who was on duty when the deaths occurred, etc.)

Hasn't she been convicted now, rendering the OP's "allegedly" moot?

R62, there wasn't a "coverup" in the sense that hospital administrators tried to conceal her guilt, but they actively tried to thwart inquiries because they were worried about the hospital's "reputation." They made it possible for her to kill more children.

Brows are not on fleek.

R64 That's gross! I didn't know.

Describes this bitch perfectly:

Narcissism comes in many forms. I suppose the one common denominator is that those around the narcissist either feel ‘less-than’ or face harsh repudiation. I want to focus on the altruistic narcissist because her cloak of kindness can confuse her victims. Such narcissists go way out of their way to curate the image of a selfless caregiver. This image is insincere. It is there to combat an inner sense of worthlessness rather than to genuinely care about and protect others.

I’ve had two sons in the NICU. What a nightmare. Some parents lost twins to this freak.

The Sunday Times have got more on the grievance process. She had her parents with her as support but I want to know whether Unison or the RCN supported her/were involved.

After successfully persuading the Countess of Chester Hospital that she was being victimised by doctors, managers offered her support for a masters degree or training as an advanced nurse. Letby had a 'victim statement' read to the trust board 2/7

The Sunday Times has seen the grievance report into her case that details how managers wanted to "protect her from allegations" as well as board minutes, emails and previously unseen evidence showing how the trust board was misled and turned against doctors 3/7

The reports reveal how doctors had a "drawer of doom" linking Letby to baby deaths - which had increased 400% on the year before. In May 2016 one dr told a manager: “You are harbouring a murderer.” It was a year before the police were called 4/7

Medical director Ian Harvey told the grievance investigation the executive team felt strongly that if they raised concerns with the police without foundation, Letby would have been arrested which would have resulted in a "bomb-site" for the trust to manage. 5/7

Chief executive Tony Chambers met with Letby and her parents in December 2016 and apologised for how she had been treated. He told them the doctors "would be dealt with" The Sunday Times can reveal he resigned after agreeing a non-disclosure agreement with the trust. 6/7

R67 Interesting - I guess that would explain her 'I'm not good enough' (inner worthlessness) and alternating between admitting that she did it and claiming that she didn't do anything wrong. She doesn't seem schizophrenic to me (don't they have more wild conspiracy theory stuff?)

Someone who I think is good at reading people once told me that it's some of the really nice people who are the worst people and that people can be so easily fooled by someone simply coming across as nice.

So if she's that kind of narcissist, it would explain a lot because deep down all narcissists have a lot of hatred.

R31, schizophrenics are deeply impaired. Letby wouldn't have been able function if she was an unmedicated schizophrenic. Not everyone has an "internal dialogue," but many do; it's too common to be a symptom of mental illness.

R70- I believe she did kill out of rage when she didn't get her way.

R72, it's been plausibly suggested that Letby started killing at her previous hospital. Someone who studied serial killers said that their first murder is always the "best" to them, and that they are driven to try to replicate that experience. They are, in essence, addicts seeking a high. So it's no wonder that Letby was furious at anyone who tried to remove her from the neonatal unit; they were trying to cut off her supply.

R73- I believe she did too. I hope that is being investigated because I'm afraid there are more victims. She was addicted, as you said, to the killing, the drama of it, the sadism watching the grieving parents, and the sympathy she sought from staff afterwards. She attempted to take a dying child from the mothers arms. She is a sadistic psychopath. She loved causing pain and misery. It gave her pleasure.

R74, I feel no guilt when I say that I hope she is tortured on a daily basis and then killed

R75- The cowardly baby killer refuses to show up in court for her sentencing. Cunt. What else would one expect from a diabolical piece of sewage who chooses the most vulnerable, innocent little victims to kill? The other inmates in prison will not be so helpless.

She was apparently having an affair with a consultant. Even if they weren't, it sounds as though she was obsessed with him. The prosecutor suggested that she harmed the babies in the hope that they could fight to save them together, bonding them. Even if he wasn't present during the crisis, she sought him out for comfort afterwards. IIRC, the only time she cried in court was when he testified against her.

I hope she gets a whole-life tariff, and that she suffers every day for the rest of her life.

R77- The prosecutor referred to that doctor as her boyfriend throughout the trial. They were definitely having an affair. It would be very interesting to know when she first started killing babies and when she met the doctor.

Did you guys see The Good Nurse? Another serial killer night nurse. Compelling watch.

Yeah. The Good Nurse was excellent.

R79- Thank you for that link.

She looks like my coworker who hates me because she thinks I took her job. I did not realize the situation I was walking into when hired last year.

R71, after reading your post, you are so correct — thank you. I guess my desperation to try and make sense of something that will never make sense steered me in the wrong direction. Whatever her actual diagnosis/pathology, her Post-it note blew me the fuck away because it somehow explained her inner turmoil to me (no, I have no compassion for her, just seeking to break it all down). Are narcissists known to also be serial killers? I can’t recall any other serial killer labeled as narcissistic.

R74, I agree with you too. Her behavior was exactly like an addict. She seemed obsessed, she craved it, she had to get off on another killing, then she hated herself for doing it, and her self-hatred fed the cycle yet again, round and round, a circle of pure self-hatred that spilled out into the real world.

Last comment and it’s a cliche, but I have to say it. What’s ALSO so freaky is how normal she looks. It goes to show you that there are actual monsters around us who wear masks, and you have no fucking idea who they are. I’m the poster who had a co-teacher molesting my student in his classroom across from the principal’s office during the school day, and he then hung himself in his garage for his wife to find him (he confessed in a suicide note because the cops had pulled all of his texts with the kid and were preparing to induct him). *No one* had any clue. He was one of my informal mentors when I was new. The parents blamed all of us and accused us of covering up for him, but the teachers had absolutely zero idea what he was doing because he was sooooooo good at hiding it. He taught for 30 years. That was my first (and hopefully last!!!) experience with being very close to someone who was wearing a mask with me. I drank with him every Friday night at “seminar” (the bar). This bitch looks so normal, and that is what is most terrifying to me. It brings up some PTSD on my teaching experience.

It is hard to wrap one's head around someone doing this one time, feeling no guilt or even a sense of worry that you might get caught, but feeling compelled to do it repeatedly even though it was bound to look more and more suspicious. I think she will ultimately linked to far more than 7 deaths.

^indict, not induct

My question at R19 has been answered

[quote]One thing I haven't see in the coverage is how the assaults have affected the babies who survived. Being born so prematurely does leave children with a high risk of disability but it hasn't been widely reported.

[quote]One of the babies was the size of an adult hand, weighing just over 535g (1lb), when she was born 15 weeks premature and given a 5% chance of survival. Letby tried to kill the girl twice – the first attempt just hours after she and the family had marked her 100th day of life with a celebratory cake, and the second on what would have been her due date two weeks later. Letby was found not guilty of a third count of attempted murder against her.

[quote]The little girl, known as Child G, was diagnosed with quadriplegic cerebral palsy after the attacks. Now eight, she is nil by mouth and requires 24-hour care.

Text conversation with married doctor. It does seem that she was getting attention/affirmation from him.

^^^ WOOOOOOOOW. She’s such a CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

R87, that’s what I would imagine you would see from a female psychopath. They’d be good at getting affirmation and validation from people; they would know how to play on their protective instincts.

[quote]Nobody's going to double their nursing staff. It has nothing to do with penny wise and pound foolish, it's just common sense.

One can argue that doubling the nursing staff also doubles the amount of Baby-Murdering Psychopaths.

R83, just give it a moment's thought.

All serial killers are narcissists.

But r91, I’ve never read (nor do I recall reading it) that a serial killer was labeled with that term. Sociopath, psychopath, sadist, violent, schizophrenic, paranoid….sure. But I can’t recall a case using the label narcissist. I

Eeew. Sounds like the doctor definitely crossed some boundaries. He's obviously not responsible for any of her crimes, but imagine finding out encouraging this twisted bitch indirectly led to all those babies being murdered. How does he live with it. Wonder what his wife did when she found out.

R92, incredibly few serial killers are female, though. I can imagine that they psychology might be different.

R93, Letby played everyone the way she played that doctor. She was able to manipulate everyone in a position of authority; they all wound up defending her and telling her how great she was and how she was the victim. Everyone validated her. The doctor was really the least of it; the people on positions of power at the hospital truly enabled her.

R94, bingo! Can’t believe I didn’t think about gender.

Criminology professor, David Wilson, in The Guardian:

"So why did she do it?

We might never be able to answer this question definitively, but like many of those nurses who have been convicted in the past 50 years there was probably a “hero complex” at work – a desire to be the centre of everyone’s attention; a toxic narcissism that demanded that they should have power and control, which they might have felt had been denied to them in other aspects of their lives. And what better way of demonstrating that power than deciding who should live and who should die?

Not so much an “angel of death” but God-like – the ultimate arbiter of existence."

This 1991 TV movie was based on murderous pediatric nurse Genene Jones. They think she killed up to 60 children.

In her case part of her motivation was to be seen as heroic for saving the kids she’d poisoned and knew where going to crash. She could be right there and know what to do, then get praised. Obviously that wasn’t enough after a while.

WERE going to crash - not where!

The UK Press, Police and academics are really struggling with this one.

The Mail labelled her 'the Vanilla Killer'. A senior police officer who investigated her described her as 'beige'. No-one has any great theories as to what made her into a killer.

One particularly amusing reddit post was the sentence 'She's Just So Basic' with each word a hyperlink to different shots of her bedroom: the Ibiza-themed canvas bag, the 'It's Prosecco Season' wall art, the stuffed toys on the bed, the Chicklit novel on the bedside table. She was single, she seemed to have friends she could go to bars with, she liked the gym and salsa. She didn't stand out in any way.

I did wonder if she would be convicted: pretty much all the evidence was circumstantial, and the evidence for the air embolisms which was apparently her method for killing multiple children was often not conclusive and was missed at the time. The prosecution has apparently convinced the jury that they can use different piece of compelling but not conclusive evidence to build up an overall picture. The defence accepted that test results on 2 babies proved that they had been deliberately poisoned by exogenous insulin, which seems to have been absolutely key (some online supporters are accusing her defence of incompetence here).

David Wilson touring the tv studios today.

"@PaulBrandITV

No appearance yet from Lucy Letby at her sentencing.

Offenders cannot be forced to appear to hear the victim statements from families or sentencing from judge.

It is the ultimate display of disregard and disrespect, but the one bit of power Letby still holds over her victims."

"@JudithMoritz

Lucy Letby has refused to attend today's sentencing hearing. The courtroom is full, of the babies' families, of lawyers, and police officers. Eight of the 11 jurors have come back to hear the sentencing. But the dock is empty.

@JudithMoritz

Nick Johnson KC, for the prosecution, addresses the judge. He says Letby's offences all qualify as "sadistic and premeditated"... and this is a "very very clear case which qualifies for a whole life order"

@JudithMoritz

Ben Myers KC: "The sympathy of everyone lies with the victims and the bereaved families..... Miss Letby has maintained her innocence throughout these proceedings. She has now been convicted....

@JudithMoritz

... the sentence to be passed is fixed by law... in those circumstances there is nothing that we are able to add in mitigation that is capable of reducing the sentence that will be passed"

Did Drew Barrymore ever play her in a made for tv film? If not that is criminal.

Jodie Comer would be first choice.

Lots of people getting very worked up about Letby not attending, following several other high profile murder/rape cases where the convicted men refused to attend.

It’s a very populist position for politicians and journalists to take but how do you physically force someone to attend a court and make them sit in silence to listen to the victims’ families and the sentencing judge.

These are people who know they’re going to be living the rest of their lives in prison. They have nothing to lose.

R105 In the US I believe they can be required to attend. It isn't about the criminal but about the victim/s. The victim/s want to feel like that at least the criminal heard the sentencing. For that reason I think they should be required to attend.

Yes I understand the importance of a convicted person attending their sentencing in person. But if you have someone who absolutely refuses to attend and *resists* being taken, what then?

What happens of they start shouting or start hitting themselves in the face? We’re not talking about rational people here.

A Hannibal Lector mask and restraint job where they’re wheeled into court?

[quote]But if you have someone who absolutely refuses to attend and *resists* being taken, what then? What happens of they start shouting or start hitting themselves in the face? We’re not talking about rational people here. A Hannibal Lector mask and restraint job where they’re wheeled into court?

Yes, pretty much. How else are people forced to attend police interviews or trials they don't want to attend?

I've heard it suggested that the defence deliberately threw this by putting her on the stand knowing she would make a bad impression. It's certainly quite something that the only other witness they called was a plumber who testified about waste coming up through the sink. But they did enough to prevent her having grounds for appeal (unless new evidence emerges).

And if you think that onlookers/victims wouldn't have taken pleasure at seeing an unwilling criminal being forced to listen to their sentencing, you're naive about human nature! Letby wouldn't have done that imo anyway - she'd have been her usual boring self.

R110 the recent cases of murderers refusing to attend court included serial sex offender Jordan McSweeney who murdered Zara Aleena, a woman walking home.

This is a man with nearly 70 convictions who is never going to be released from prison.

The family wanted to see him in court but the distress at him being there and shouting obscenities at them, possibly about the murder itself, would not be something they would take pleasure in.

R99, your post is terrifying, as is the post that shows her chatting it up with the doctor via text.

She seemed so normal.

I’d be interested in learning more about her childhood.

[quote] but the distress at him being there and shouting obscenities at them, possibly about the murder itself, would not be something they would take pleasure in.

With respect, that's your assumption. My personal experience is that even if the criminal is unrepentant, victims still want to have their say and be able to see them receiving their sentence.

If the press had anything juicy about her past that they had to hold back until the verdict, it'd be out by now. But there's nothing. The biggest revelations are about how unresponsive hospital management was and how they forced the whistleblowers into mediation meetings with her (what a red face for the HR person responsible for that one).

No way in hell would she have got away with so much if she weren't white, British-born and middle-class.

[quote]No way in hell would she have got away with so much if she weren't white, British-born and middle-class.

Not so convinced about that - I mean I remember this case in 2011. A white, British nurse was charged with murders of patients but then it transpired that the true perpetrator had been an Asian man.

Imagine growing up and being told that you're the surviving triplet and a nurse murdered your two siblings.

I had to read the BBC article because this story is too crazy to be believed - not in the sense that someone would do something like this (there are, unfortunately, multiple other cases like this) but that the system (administrators, etc.) allowed this to go on for as long as it did, not only in spite of multiple people sounding the alarm, but their attempts to shut down anyone who raised issues and a failure to follow on a terrible problem. Is this area kind of poor, downtrodden area? I have to think that if this happened in some wealthy area like Chelsea, they'd be more on top of things (wondering if this plays into previous comments about the UK class structure)

The two biggest groups of freaks I work with are nurses and elementary school teachers.

They seem to have the same psychological profile as cops.

If you’re male and you have this profile, you become a cop. If you are female and you have it, you become a nurse or elementary school teacher.

They are people who want total power over others snd to be able to vent their rage towards people they perceive as unable to fight back.

The poster up thread is correct— the nurses are all pillheads. I’ve had 5 or 6 clients who were nurses in just the past year and they are all pillheads and totally chaotic.

If you ask them to do a simple, 30-second task like give you a copy of their last paystub, you will have to ask 7 or 8 times because they just can’t get anything done. It’s terrifying to think of them going to work in a hospital, but they do.

Kit at R115 is such a lazy assumption, as R116 shows.

Letby has a fairly ordinary lower middle class background. Parents had unremarkable jobs, neither went to university, live in ordinary house, and holidayed in the UK, in Torquay. Letby was first person in family to go to university and did a nursing degree; a profession which didn’t used to require a degree to enter.

The consultants who complained about her and wanted her off the unit were much higher ranking in class and authority.

The notion that Letby had ‘privilege’ over male consultants who earned at least twice her salary just doesn’t cut it.

Yeah, like Chua she was just really good at pulling the wool over people's eyes.

Chua even wrote a similar note to Letby which police found: "Among the evidence produced by the prosecution was a self-penned letter found at Chua's home in Stockport. In the letter, described as "the bitter nurse confession" by Chua, he said he was "an angel turned into an evil person" and "there's a devil in me", who had things he would "take to the grave".

[quote]I had to read the BBC article because this story is too crazy to be believed - not in the sense that someone would do something like this (there are, unfortunately, multiple other cases like this) but that the system (administrators, etc.) allowed this to go on for as long as it did, not only in spite of multiple people sounding the alarm, but their attempts to shut down anyone who raised issues and a failure to follow on a terrible problem. Is this area kind of poor, downtrodden area? I have to think that if this happened in some wealthy area like Chelsea, they'd be more on top of things (wondering if this plays into previous comments about the UK class structure)

Class is a part of it, but it works both ways.

In this case it wasn't the parents of the babies raising the alarm, it was the consultants, a usually influential group of people. There was a genuinely sense of disbelief that a nurse could be harming babies and senior managers prioritised the risk of reputational damage.

To go back to Adam Kay's book This Is Going To Hurt, he (a privately educated upper class man) was derisory towards women of all classes who wanted input into their babies births. It's no coincidence that maternity scandals are the worst in the NHS. But it was the confident/educated/pushy/I want to speak to the manager women (Karens!) who challenged the poor care and organised with others to unearth the poor practices.

So yes, education and class does have an impact on poor NHS care.

Well, the cunt will never get out now. Mr Justice Goss has sentenced her to a whole life tariff. Not surprising but it means that she cannot be eligible for parole - ever. She will die in jail. She's still just 33 and has already spent the last few years in jail.

People think her 'vanilla' qualities make her implausible as a killer but I think it's her very 'basic-ness' that might explain a lot of her tendencies.

Imagine you're an only child- adored (to the point of suffocation) by your well meaning but uneducated parents. They love you and probably tell you over and over that you're hot shit. Except you're not. You're basic. Your personality is an outcropping of theirs and because they're not especially bright or cultured or interesting, neither are you. This could be a pretty rude awakening sometime in early adulthood. When you realize that the wider world doesn't really give a shit.....you might feel cheated, rageful + disempowered. You might want to do something for validation (her texts to the doctor) or you could be acting out merely to set yourself apart from all the other bland, white, suburban women whom you resemble- who are totally unremarkable too.

Perhaps her perceived loss of innocence....resulted in her wanting to rob all those young families and children of the same thing.

^I read his book & I can kind of see where he was coming from: the goal is to get the baby out as quickly & safely as possible & that means your *plan* might go right out the window. And I can see this attitude in general in all medicine; doctors ask the obligatory "do you have any questions?" and if you actually ask questions, they sigh and act as if they're being required to explain trigonometry to the town simpleton.

But in this case, I can see where class works both ways: mean old doctors appearing to pick on a young lower class single woman (bad!) but perhaps also a tendency to blame patients for the death of their babies (probably a drinker!) rather than looking inward. I guess it shouldn't, but this sort of institutional blindness and devotion to appearing PC rather than doing the right thing just seems mind-boggling.

She was arrested and bailed 3 times before finally being arrested and charged with the murders 28 months later. Am I the only one surprised that she didn’t commit suicide whilst out on bail? The post it notes alone show what her state of mind was like.

Can you remove the " allegedly "

[quote]In May 2016 one dr told a manager: “You are harbouring a murderer.” It was a year before the police were called

My goodness. That couldn't have been more plain.

[quote]Can you remove the " allegedly "

No, you can't edit DL posts. The grammar trolls need ammo.

[quote]Can you remove the " allegedly "

That post was posted last year and DL doesn't have an edit feature. Only slow people will miss that.

If there’s one thing I’m sick of, it’s media commentators going on about her being pretty (gruesome Iain Dale, who’s never met a cliche he didn’t like, but is hardly an arbiter of beauty, called her an “English Rose”). Letby has a plain pudding of a face.

Prettier than the likes of Myra Hindley, Rose West, or Beverly Allitt, perhaps. But that’s a low bar.

Still, I bet some repulsive red top hack called Beverly Alitt “girl-next-door pretty”. And they’d try to mount an argument that matronly Rose West had “barmaid curves and a peachy complexion while rocking a mauve cardigan”

God, that text exchange at R87. Doctor saying she's the only nurse he'd trust his kids with. Was he that stupid, or did he want to fuck her?

Some people have ZERO ability to read others.

I have a family member like this. Married 4 times to men who were abusive and / or users. Men who— if we spent 5 minutes talking to them— you or I would think “what a loser” and quickly move on.

There’s another woman in my neighborhood who is one of those “always at the school volunteering” types. Yet she’s the nastiest piece of work you’ll ever meet. Says jaw-droppingly rude things to parents and students alike. Constantly doing shady things at the school and WANTS YOU TO BE SURE YOU KNOW ABOUT IT and she can get away with it. A real nutjob.

Yet most people think she’s sweet as can be because she drops off a sandwich tray every now and then (purchased with other people’s money, though. But she never gives anyone else any credit.)

It doesn’t really affect me as I don’t hang out with the fat frau group. But I’m always amazed no one else seems to have this woman’s number. I used to worry about her coming in contact with my kid, but we moved to a much better school district nearby and thankfully no more bunny boilers.

Aside from just how terrible the whole thing is, many of the parents of dead children talked about trying to have children after repeated IVF failures. So to finally get one to finish line, only to have the baby killed by some delusional, pathetic psycho, desperate for attention & validation - what a tragedy.

I'm not sure what the liability laws are in the UK, but in the US, that hospital would be sued into the stone age with possibly some personal liability for those administrators who failed to call the cops, even after repeated warnings.

[quote]Aside from just how terrible the whole thing is, many of the parents of dead children talked about trying to have children after repeated IVF failures.

Twins and triplets are more likely to come from IVF, so when Letby targeted them over other babies. she knew exactly what she was doing.

It shouldn't surprise me but Twitter personalities making EVERYTHING about their cause regardless of the case is quite something.

R137 You can always trust Indiana Willoughby to get in there in a crass way.

Ted Bundy managed to fool many intelligent people until nearly the end. Ann Rule was once in law enforcement and wrote about true crime and still the mask of TB only fell when she saw the dental impressions of his teeth compared to one victims bite marks on her buttocks. She had worked with him many times alone at night at a suicide crisis call center, thought she knew him well. She didn't. It is called the mask of sanity.

[quote] some delusional, pathetic psycho, desperate for attention & validation

I don’t think that’s why she did it. Did she rush in and desperately try to “save” the babies she herself had poisoned? I don’t recall reading that.

I think she just reveled in the pain and harm she inflicted.

R140- I completely agree. To me she is just like Donald Harvey.

[quote] Can you remove the " allegedly "

What a crass question — shows a total lack of knowledge of the forum.

I was listening to Sky News today, non stop coverage. The judge read her to filth and gave her LIFE without parole for EACH murder. Very rare in UK. Called her sadistic.

They also interviewed some kind of government work in child welfare. She said the UK needs to investigate the hospital and charge people for a long, LYING, PURPOSEFUL, inaction and cover up for many of the murders.

Jesus. The person responsible for these murders is sitting in jail for life, where she belongs.

Breaking out your pitchforks and torches for "accessory hunting" everyone else in the hospital is madness. Nobody was trying to LET the psycho go around killing children. This bloodthirsty feeling is a phase. Be a rational adult and allow it to pass.

Everyone who had anything to do with this case already knows any and all points where they failed. People aren't fucking stupid, especially in a huge, awful case like this one. Let people deal with their own guilt or regret, the murderer was caught and is in prison. Let it end.

NO r145. You are wrong. Leaders are held to a higher standard of ethics, values, decision-making, and action. If someone wants to lead, they fucking better know what that means and be prepared to make unpopular, tough, but-wrenching decisions that may cost them their job or career. That’s the price you pay for power, high salary, prestige. You are fucking accountable.

If these leaders learned their lessons, have any of them made a statement? An apology? Shown guilt or remorse or horror at their own words and failure to act? If they did, that’s great. But more than likely, they didn’t even have the goddamn balls to ask these families for their forgiveness.

R145, I’m sorry. I have been fucked over by shitty leaders so your post brought it up for me. Are you aware of there are statements that support that these leaders are aware of what they each did wrong? If yes, I would love to read that. I apologize again.

^r146, r147, survivor of toxic corporate culture, scarred but healing.

R145, yours is a strange post, since it tries to rebut an argument no one has made. No one has accused anyone of being Letby’s “accessory.” No one consciously permitted Letby to continue killing. To the contrary, hospital authorities went out of their way to avoid understanding what was going on. They were incompetent, and their incompetence cost lives. Why should they should be protected from the consequences of their own awful decisions?

Leaders, R146? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm talking about a general witch hunt of other nurses, aides, various hospital personnel and anyone the howling fucking mob can get their hands on. and accuse of being accessories in this clusterfuck.

R150, I was talking about the Executives who heard doctors saying “you have a murderer” and then did nothing. I’m absolutely *not* referring to frontline staff. The people who likely threatened staffers with punishment and forced them to apologize to this witch were on the executive leadership team. CEO’s, COO’s, CFO’s, PR, Risk, Legal, maybe some VP’s, maybe Board members, and likely HR til the cows come home. They tried to stop this case from becoming public.

So you and I are talking about two different groups, and I AGREE that the frontline workers and support staff did nothing wrong, they didn’t know, or they followed procedures and policy by reporting it correctly. They deserve nothing but empathy. But the top of the system failed, and that is what I’ve got personal experience with — shitty leaders.

shut up

[quote]Leaders? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm talking about a general witch hunt of other nurses, aides, various hospital personnel and anyone the howling fucking mob can get their hands on. and accuse of being accessories in this clusterfuck.

In the UK, the debate IS about the leaders. Specifically three senior managers/executives. Nobody is getting pitchforks out about nurses/aides/ordinary hospital personnel.

I agree with the other poster - those three managers were paid a lot of money to make good decisions and take responsibility.

She's like the incels. Jealous of what she can't have so she wants to destroy their happiness.

Nothing will happen to the CEOs and COOs and so on because nothing ever does.

They will go after and take down the low level workers and peons they can get, the same way they always do.

It already is happening R156. The woman who was the executive nurse director at the Trust at the time has been suspended from her new job.

There is a trade off with the UK public sector - they get significantly less money than people with similar jobs in the private sector - ITV's Chief Exec was on 3.5 million, an NHS Chief Exec gets maybe 250k - but they get excellent pensions and job security.

This CEO was allowed to retire after multiple deaths in her hospital and got a £130k severance payout.

[quote]The review by experts from two royal colleges was prompted by 25 serious incidents, including eight stillbirths and four neonatal deaths, between January 2016 and last September.

[quote]A total of 43 pregnancies were investigated by the two colleges between January 2016 and September 2018 to see if there was any "avoidable harm" - 21 of them were stillbirths, five were neonatal deaths and and 17 were complications in labour. However, only 13 were recorded as they should have been. The investigation found maternity services to be "dysfunctional", with many women reporting "distressing experiences and poor care".

R156- Do you know if anything will happen to Dr. A?

Who is Doctor A?

R158- The married doctor she was having an affair with.

Someone was fucking that? The world of the heterosexual is a sick, sad place.

R159, the doctor may be subject to an investigation and disciplinary if it's found he behaved unprofessionally.

But it's a strange one. What has been released to the media suggests he was naive rather than willingly obstructing any investigation.

There's been a lot about the senior management team and the consultants but the Neonatal Unit have a ward manager/sister, practice educators, deputy nurse managers. What did the other nurses make of Letby?

All of the people who protected their institutions by failing to report her should be thrown into a cauldron of boiling oil.

Do we know the date of her first attack on a baby and the date she met Dr. A?

R163, no, we don't. She's been implicated in at least two deaths at another hospital before she came to Countess of Chester Hospital, which may have been well before she met Dr. A. She's a psychopath; other people probably never meant much to her.

R160 Of course someone was fucking her, she was a reasonably attractive young woman. Nobody knew what she was doing at that time. Stop talking crap you idiot.

R165 - 1/10

You overdid that, hon. Try ratcheting your free-form rage back a bit.

[quote][R163], no, we don't. She's been implicated in at least two deaths at another hospital before she came to Countess of Chester Hospital, which may have been well before she met Dr. A. She's a psychopath; other people probably never meant much to her.

Calm down Mary.

She hasn't been "implicated" in any murders. The Liverpool hospital she worked in conducted a review and 2 babies died during the time she worked there. There has been nothing to say she was on shift or had any involvement, just that 2 deaths happened over that time period.

R166 No rage here, I was just calling you out for your idiotic post.

“The world of the heterosexual is a sick sad place” ….what a prissy drama queen.

Whatever was going on between Letby and the doctor seems a bit sad. He's reported to be a lot older with adult children and he looks like he was trying to get a sidepiece while she was feeding off the attention. "After she was removed from the ward, the two continued to meet outside of work for coffee and restaurant dates, shopping trips, and a visit to her home, where she lived alone."

R167, and if anyone should get the benefit of the doubt it’s her. Of course. They are reviewing all of the cases in which Letby may have had contact with babies. It’s been been suggested that two cases in particular at another hospital may have involved her. Deaths in neonatal units are, or should be, rare.

No R170, that's not an honest assessment.

1. Police have said she could face more charges - of course she could

2. Police are investigating the care of babies n the other hospitals - of course they are

3. 2 babies died in Liverpool when she worked there - premature babies are incredibly vulnerable and do sadly die.

There statements of fact that don't mean "Police are investigating deaths at Liverpool and say she could be charged".

It's not about giving her the benefit of the doubt, it's about not sensationalising basic facts.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote] She's like the incels. Jealous of what she can't have so she wants to destroy their happiness.

There's no reason she couldn't have found a mate and had children of her own if she wasn't a fucking psychopath and obsessed with a married man. She was young, not hideous looking, nothing to suggest she was infertile. Someone would have knocked her up. But thank god they didn't.

Oh for fuck's sake R168, welcome to the motherfucking Datalounge.

We have our little jokes and sayings and "memes" of our own here. Familiarize yourself with them and you'll seem less stupid.

The fact that that woman received mother fucking *severance pay* after letting babies be murdered is sick — it’s why people no longer have trust or faith in institutions. They’ve gone too far. There is zero sense of outrage. All they care about is covering their fucking lily-white asses. It could be babies or anything else, they only care about lawsuits, not the principle. Does a leader who co-signs deplorable behavior deserve fucking severance? I say no. But hey, I’m nothing to them, and so are you.

Who are we becoming?

She gives me Elizabeth Holmes vibes

YEEEEEEEEESSSS!!! This tines a trillion @ r176!!!

Thanks r177, I’m surprised no one thus far mentioned that. Literally my first thought when I saw the pic in OP’s post.

That’s one sick bitch. A character out of Victorian era horror.

Sorry for typo there, but you did indeed mail it r178! I read the book on Holmes too, so I’m kind of shocked that I missed the similarities, it is UNCANNY. Both of their eyes have the exact same cold gaze. It is terrifying and hypnotic at the same time. Is that how she looked at those babies while she killed them, a look of nothingness???! Woooooooow. Exactly like Holmes! Both look utterly “normal”.

R174 I have been here for many years. Everybody on any thread feels less stupid when you are around. That is your role on here, to be the king of stupid clichés.

These two queens bickering need to go rent a room and work it out in the bedroom or something. It might make them more amusing.

R176, how exactly does she remind you of Elizabeth Holmes?

[quote]The fact that that woman received mother fucking *severance pay* after letting babies be murdered is sick — it’s why people no longer have trust or faith in institutions. They’ve gone too far. There is zero sense of outrage. All they care about is covering their fucking lily-white asses. It could be babies or anything else, they only care about lawsuits, not the principle. Does a leader who co-signs deplorable behavior deserve fucking severance? I say no. But hey, I’m nothing to them, and so are you. Who are we becoming?

R175, the Chief Exec (Allison Williams) mentioned at R156 who received severance pay worked at a different hospital to Letby. Babies weren't murdered, but poor care led to 8 still births and 4 deaths in the maternity unit.

What should have happened was investigations into each one of those incidents to work out what happened and to learn from it so it doesn't happen again. If that had been done with the first still birth it might have stopped the second, if it had been done after the second it might have stopped the third etc. The impact now is that women don't want to give birth in those hospitals which puts pressure on other hospitals in the area, and midwives don't want to work there, so it won't improve.

And people are fucking outraged. There were calls for the Health Minister to resign over it as well as the CEO - this is in Wales run by Labour not the NHS in England run by the Conservatives. There have also been scandals in Scotland, where the NHS is run by the SNP.

[quote]the Chief Exec (Allison Williams) mentioned at who received severance pay worked at a different hospital to Letby. Babies weren't murdered, but poor care led to 8 still births and 4 deaths in the maternity unit.

Yes, he's got mixed up with someone else - the female manager in the Letby case is called Alison Kelly and she was the nursing manager. The chief exec was Tony Chambers.

Alison Kelly was working as director of nursing for the Northern Care Alliance NHS Foundation Trust, which runs five hospitals in the Manchester area, but as a result of the Letby verdict has been suspended from her job at least.

Tony Chambers only stood down from his job on June 2nd this year despite the investigation going on for years and the trial for 10 months.

Dear Goodness, r145, many have said it already, but I won't rest until I do, too. You're slow, but don't worry, George Hamilton lives! Eighty-four years young and living the good life, too!

[quote]Tony Chambers only stood down from his job on June 2nd this year despite the investigation going on for years and the trial for 10 months.

Out of curiosity, I googled this guy's name & wow - every paper in the UK is howling for this guy's head on a pike. All the characters involved are giving interviews & it's only a matter of time before Lucy's boyfriend (or whatever he is) is publicly outed. Given the outrage, I don't think Lucy will be the only person behind bars when all is said & done

[quote]Given the outrage, I don't think Lucy will be the only person behind bars when all is said & done

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The media were howling for the head of Sharon Shoesmith who was director of Haringey social services over the case of Baby P. But while she was sacked, she won a Court of Appeal hearing over the sacking and Haringey council had to pay her over £600,000 in compensation.

It's just like with the bankers - these people never seem to face criminal charges or any real financial consequences.

[quote][R174] I have been here for many years.

There's no way that's true if you don't know Aunt Ida.

"Serial killer nurse Lucy Letby was still being paid her NHS salary years after her murderous rampage ended, The Independent can reveal.

Britain’s most prolific child killer, who is serving a whole-life sentence for murdering seven babies and attempting to murder six more between 2015 and 2016, continued to be paid until she was charged with the horrific crimes in 2020.

That meant she was still receiving her salary from the Countess of Chester Hospital four years after she killed the last child and two years after she was first arrested.

Letby was first arrested in 2018 and again in 2019 before being formally charged in 2020. During that period she was suspended from her role on the neonatal ward on full pay."

Alison Kelly is probably receiving her full salary while being suspended as well.

R189 old school aol reference in the house. kudos.

Lucy Letby: Baby-Murdering Psychopath (Not-Allegedly)

There is no accountability for “executives” the way there is for practising doctors, nurses and medical staff.

That has to change.

I’m in no way reaching when I say they are like pedophile priests, shunted off to new positions and in possession of their fat pensions when crimes they are personally responsible for occur.

Of course people who are suspended should receive their salary. Suspended does not mean guilty, and people who have merely been accused of something shouldn't lose the roof over their heads or the food on the table.

*eyeroll*

[quote] She was young, not hideous looking, nothing to suggest she was infertile.

She was very plain and craved romance, and was an egomaniac cosseted by her mother to boot. She radiated high-maintenance immaturity and nerdiness. Did you see her bedroom? A grown straight man would run screaming from it. And her. And they did.

Affirmations about Prosecco and spreading your sparkle adorned the walls, Barbie pink clothing littered the floor, Winnie The Pooh plushies sat on the bed. And she had two cats.

The only Prosecco affirmation I want is “yes, I’m pouring you another glass.”

R196 = a wine mom.

R195 Hmmm, is she our century's real-life Emma Bovary?

[quote]Hmmm, is she our century's real-life Emma Bovary

Have you even read Madame Bovary? I have, and Emma Bovary is a passionate married woman who has two affairs and gets into debt and then kills herself.

Letby seems to have had a flirtation with a married doctor but there's still no evidence of an affair and otherwise she seems to have been a fairly sensible woman, no debt or crazy issues (other than coldly killing babies at work). I don't think that passionate and warm-blooded Emma Bovary is a good comparison.

R199 Indeed I have. I was thinking more 'craved romance', 'cosseted egomaniac', and 'high-maintenance immaturity'.

And famously, Emma Bovary loved trashy tat, and disliked children, even her own....

What's wrong with having 2 cats?

One of the things I find fascinating about true crime fraus is the way they bait each other into more and more extreme expressions of rage when a case is over and done - even when they got the result they wanted. Right now the FB group I'm in is awash with violent pornographic fantasies about the nasty end they hope she meets at the hands of other inmates, while one poster is starting threads with pictures of a (totally unrelated to the case) premature baby so that we can see 'just *who* is being targeted here' and so that she can shout 'shame on you' at Letby's remaining defenders. Someone else wants Richard Gill's blog 'shut down'.

Jolly Jane Toppan.

Jane Toppan (born Honora Kelley; March 31, 1854 – August 17, 1938), nicknamed Jolly Jane, was an American serial killer who is known to have committed twelve murders in Massachusetts between 1895 and 1901; she confessed to a total of thirty-one murders. The killings were carried out in Toppan's capacity as a nurse, targeting patients and their family members. Toppan, who admitted to have committed the murders to satisfy a sexual fetish, was quoted as saying that her ambition was "to have killed more people—helpless people—than any other man or woman who ever lived".

She's a psycho and got what she deserved. I think she deliberately left those notes. She had plenty of time to shred/destroy them, but she left them to be discovered.

The medical trade is appealing to psychopaths - they don't feel disgust or stress in normal ways. People see you as virtuous and you have a lot of power over others.

[quote]Of course people who are suspended should receive their salary. Suspended does not mean guilty, and people who have merely been accused of something shouldn't lose the roof over their heads or the food on the table. *eyeroll*

For four years? Sorry but that's absurd. If they didn't think she was safe enough to be working at a hospital, it should be a lot easier to sack her. Because you know that one of the issues for the senior managers was that they knew they couldn't sack her easily and that they would be paying for a staff member to just simply stay at home and would be down a staff member. That's one of their concerns and will have been a big reason why they decided to keep her working at the hospital.

The chief of the Met police has talked about this issue too - a staggering one in ten officers are not fully deployed due to worries over their performance or health issues. It should be a LOT easier to be able to sack people. 'Evidence' is all good and well but many times you don't have that kind of complex proof and the wheels roll slowly. This kind of bureaucracy keeps rogue officers and rogue nurses at work because senior managers have to work with finances and need staff.

[quote] people who have merely been accused of something shouldn't lose the roof over their heads or the food on the table

Sorry but this annoys me as well. That would not have happened unless she went on a serious spiral of addiction or similar. She could have got another job - but crucially one that did not involve access to vulnerable babies, such at a supermarket. And the UK has a benefits safety net. Local councils are obliged to house people who have lost their homes even if in a B&B. It's the serious, hopeless cases that end up on the streets for the most part, like addicts who can't hold down a roof. And she would have been able to claim Universal credit for basic food. (That's all assuming that she couldn't get another job.)

She was suspended when she was arrested in 2018, and sacked when charged in 2020, so 2 years. Long enough, but the complexities of this case and the ultimate reliance on circumstantial evidence meant she was arrested and bailed three times before she was finally charged.

Also, even people in work in the UK - including nurses - are relying on food banks now.

[quote]Also, even people in work in the UK - including nurses - are relying on food banks now.

Because they can't manage their finances or get hit with an unexpected cost they did not save up for.

R209 Christ they indoctrinated you good, didn't they?

[quote]Christ they indoctrinated you good, didn't they?

More like you have been. As a “band 5” nurse Letby would have been earning between £28,406 and £34,581. That is definitely enough to live on in Chester. Stop falling for the far left Guardianista 'food bank' propaganda. It is as I said - the people with full time decent jobs who can't manage their finances or don't save up for unexpected costs who end up in a food bank.

R211 not sure why you are posting her nurses salary when you wanted her sacked immediately and working at a supermarket instead. Duuuuuh.

[quote] not sure why you are posting her nurses salary when you wanted her sacked immediately and working at a supermarket instead. Duuuuuh.

You said that nurses go to food banks. Full-time supermarket work is enough to live on as well.

I do not accept that a someone without kids needs to go to a food bank when earning a full time wage unless they have other issues going on like not being able to manage their finances.

This hasn't been posted but I think it's worth posting because it probably was the most damning thing in the Letby case: she was on duty for every single suspicious death or unexplained deterioration. Note that this includes several other incidents than what she has been found guilty for. This is 25 cases while she's only been found guilty in 13 cases.

Fuck off ^

[quote]Fuck off ^

Why? What's your issue?

There is precedent.

r211 = 30p Lee Anderson

She claimed during the trial she couldn’t have been infatuated with Dr A because she had an unidentified mystery boyfriend.

No word on whether he lived in Canada.

I watched the BBC Panorama. Her friend Dawn refuses to believe that Lucy could have done it. And Dr Stephen Brearey said his first response was " 'Oh no, it can't be Lucy. Not nice Lucy".

It's almost like a cliche - nobody who knew her thought she could have done it other than those who looked at the statistics.

One funny thing was that Dawn said that she can't give Lucy news about her godchildren in her letters because Lucy is not allowed anything pertaining to children.

I'm not surprised that people she knew can't believe she did it, because everything visible was Basic White Girl stuff. Pumpkin spice, mug-cradling, Live Laugh Love, It's wine o'clock stuff. Nothing seemed at all unusual about her, until it turned out that oops, she's a serial killer.

R214 I agree that's damning evidence, 25 is beyond any coincidence.

It's weird how some of the names are blank on there. Some of the staff applied for anonymity and were granted it, including the doctor she may have had the affair with. He was able to give his evidence from behind a screen even in court, he claimed because he's a doctor elsewhere now and didn't want it to damage his future career. Surely his superiors would know who he is, though.

I wonder what is happening with her parents? Presumably they will have to move home, I can’t see them wanting to stay where everybody knows them.

Also what happens to Lucy’s money now that she is banged up for the rest of her life? She sold her house a couple of years ago and moved back in with her parents. Maybe it’s like making a will, but in a case like this people get your stuff before you die.

Nobody wants her stuff. It's got serial killer cooties all over it.

Someone will "out" the doctor she had the affair with, he'll do an anguished interview about how terrible this has all been for him.

I've always suspected those fucking "live, laugh, love" wino cunts were secretly serial killers.

[quote]I wonder what is happening with her parents? Presumably they will have to move home, I can’t see them wanting to stay where everybody knows them.

There are reports that her parents are planning on moving to live near the prison she'll be put in. They rented a flat in Manchester and were living there for the duration of the trial.

[quote]Also what happens to Lucy’s money now that she is banged up for the rest of her life? She sold her house a couple of years ago and moved back in with her parents. Maybe it’s like making a will, but in a case like this people get your stuff before you die.

The parents will most likely get it although I think people in prison can still buy things.

She's not required to return the salary earned after arrest?

Someone should send her a "Live, Laugh, Love, Kill Babies" sign for her cell.

R223, in the U.S., we’d know what’s going to happen with her money: she’d be getting sued for civil damages!

Presumably she's had to pay her lawyers for a couple of years already. I doubt there's much money left, if any.

R225 Hopefully they're only planning on renting considering they could move her from prison to prison if they feel like it.

For some reason, I assumed her lawyers would be paid for her by a union.

Egads! My “fuck off” was for r211, other posts hit at same time, my bad. I stand by it but apologize for the misfire, I should have tagged it properly.

R232 I am the same poster actually, moron. And I stand by everything I said. I know of many people who live on in the region of £28-34k and do not need to use foodbanks. Do you even know many people in the UK? This isn't London either.

28-34k a year is dogshit.

If someone, or more likely some family, needs or wants to use foodbanks to supplement their food budget on such a meager salary, go for it.

Why would anyone be such a vicious cunt as to begrudge them that assistance?

R234 It isn't actually 'dogshit'. The median salary in the UK in April 2023 is £26,760 (and this is a few years on, after inflation). That's ONS figures.

So it's actually above average. Millions of people live on lower a salary without needing foodbanks.

[QUOTE]Why would anyone be such a vicious cunt as to begrudge them that assistance?

Excuse me but where did I say that I begrudge them assistance? I simply accurately said that it's people who can't manage their finances or have other issues who have to use food banks if they're on that kind of salary. Especially someone like Letby who didn't have kids.

Spot on, R176.

Thanks R225 I meant to say that I imagine they will move to wherever their daughter is in prison. They will have to live a very secretive and private life that’s for sure. Though having said that they were photographed going to and from the trial, so it’s likely they would soon be identified. I bet they could never imagine this is how they will see out their days.

R235, you’ve now been called out by two posters. Admit it, you didn’t read the room well. The number of working class folks here is high, and we all know just how hard it is to make do.

You sound like Marie Antoinette, don’t you hear yourself? There are many many many people who struggle, and they are just regular people, and sometimes they makes mistakes. Or they have bigger dreams. Or they lose hope. It’s called the human condition. You sound exactly like the type of SOB who says, “pull yourself up by your bootstraps!!!” but then won’t have any discussion of corporate greed and the billionaires not paying any taxes while cost of living continues to go up.

“Well I made it, and if I made it, then they can too!” Or whatever narrative you use to so smugly declare them to bear any/all financial problems due to their failures as people. Why not save that energy for the billionaires bro? I wonder why you won’t do that, is there a deeper reason, no snark at all? As I used to say in my stoner days, “dude, you’re harshin’ my mellow.”

R238 Wrong, I know tons and tons of people on salaries like that. I'm thinking that YOU'RE the one who doesn't know many people with those salaries and you get your talking points from sensationalist media.

You people are fucking weird and not normal Dataloungers. Probably a bunch of straight women.

Look, I don't give a fuck about this baby killer. I made a general point about shit-paying jobs using foodbanks and who would be such a cunt as to begrudge them that assistance?

You've all bitched and moaned and I feel exactly the same way now as I did when I made the comment. I am enlightened now that you're going after the baby killer nurse. It doesn't much matter why, anything she is or does is now available to be ripped to shreds. It's just one of those things.

Nonetheless, I feel exactly the same about foodbanks. I have no criticism of the people who need and use them. I don't whine about their money management skills, I don't know their lives and what pressures they have on them. However, this isn't about people, it's about the baby killing nurse chick.

To whomever went on about how I didn't "read the room" that's 1000% right. I don't and probably won't bother to again in the future. I'm fine with that, actually I prefer it.

Carry on, girls!

R238 please just fuck off with your Guardian newspaper clap trap. You are talking bollocks.

I don't think £28K to £34K is that good a salary, especially for people who've got children to support.

I'm on quite a bit more than that, but I'm single. I can cope, but if I was feeding and clothing children I can see how the money would disappear at today's prices.

Nurses make a lot more than that in the US, but it wasn't always true. Teachers and nurses, the 'female' trades, used to paid a pathetic salary. I think shortages caused the increases, as women had a lot more options after the 1970s or so.

I still can’t believe this precious murderer was allowed to not turn up in court for her sentence.

A paedo copper refused to attend for sentencing yesterday.

This is positively Victorian. And her name!

R245 Cripes. What a piece of shit.

[quote] Edwards told one 12-year-old victim who tried to ignore his requests for pictures that he could "come to her house and shoot her parents", Mr Griffiths said. She sent him an image of herself in her underwear after receiving an image from Edwards that showed the location of her mother's home on Google Maps.

Nope. No. Fucking make him sit there and hear every last piece of evidence, every word of the sentence.

I just got out of hospital and there is a BIG doctor VS nurse divide. The surgical staff seems to be largely terrified of nurses who frequently ignored their instructions. The only doctors who had any authority over the nurses were the external specialists on call.

Broken Britain

I heard she was going to appeal, while the prosecution are going for a retrial on one of the charges the jury couldn't agree on.

I suppose she's only appealing to give her something to do and to keep some hope alive. She must know there's no chance all those whole life sentences and guilty verdicts will be overturned.

The definition of "sick bitch".

R251 Agreed. When you read all the things she did, you just wonder how anyone could do that to defenceless babies.

Bury this bitch under the jail already

Yes, the jury couldn't come to an agreement on six counts of attempted murder and while the CPS isn't going to seek a retrial for five of those, they are seeking a retrial for the attempted murder of a baby girl ('Baby K') in February 2016. A provisional trial date of 10 June 2024 has been set and it's estimated that the trial will last up to three weeks.

There's also going to be a public inquiry, chaired by Lady Justice Thirlwall, which will examine how the nurse was able to murder seven babies and try to kill six others.

[quote](The inquiry) stated that there would be three broad areas of focus, first the experiences of all of the parents of the babies named in the indictment. It would secondly look at the conduct of those working at the Countess of Chester Hospital, including the board, managers, doctors, nurses and midwives with regard to the actions of Letby while she was employed there. It will finally consider the effectiveness of NHS management and governance structures and processes, external scrutiny and professional regulation in keeping babies in hospital safe and well looked after, and whether changes are necessary.

For some colour, the Mirror says that Letby was friends with Shauna Hoare (of Becky Watts infamy) and Michelle Smith (who poisoned her baby) in prison while awaiting trial.

[quote]"The former nurse struck up a tight bond with baby poisoner Michelle Smith and Shauna Hoare, who was convicted for her part in the killing of schoolgirl Becky Watts. A source told how the three had been “inseparable” as they spent months enjoying sunbathing, karaoke and movie nights. The insider said: “They were together 24 hours a day – they were a well-known threesome and were literally never apart. They’d spend hours sitting on the wing landing playing board games, eating dinner together and tanning in the courtyard."

Whistleblowers sacked by NHS fear no change after Lucy Letby case

[quote]For some colour, the Mirror says that Letby was friends with Shauna Hoare (of Becky Watts infamy) and Michelle Smith (who poisoned her baby) in prison while awaiting trial.

There are so few infamous women in prison the tabloids repeatedly make up stories about the crims being bessies.

The idea that serial killers Myra Hindley and Rose West had an affair is just fan fiction. This story, written by THREE journalists, takes the word of a convicted criminal who was paid for her time. No one can disprove it so they just run it.

R250 - I read your first sentence, then my conclusion in your second sentence. She needs entertainment, deflection, and to hold on to her self-concept as "virtuous." And the attention.

British prison sounds fun.