The Vow - HBO - Season 2

Mark is still super-creepy.

He’s loathsome. By far the most annoying of the victims (it’s a tight race though).

Mark seems to be trying really hard to distance himself from Keith. But he bought into Keith's bullshit for a reason.

Nicki Clyne is batshit insane.

Mark is one of those people who wants to believe he’s a good person but isn’t.

I have a lot of compassion for Nancy after seeing the latest episode.

I will be ripped to shreds for this, but I’m not convinced that Keith deserves to spend the rest of his life for the transgressions depicted in this documentary

He’s scum and a complete narcissist …but that sentence seems way too steep to me too.

It was funny how one of their tenets was that you can only be a victim of yourself, and then they show Nancy doing the old “poor me” routine.

I would have let a youngish Keith have his way with me.

This season isn't as interesting as the first and feels kind of unnecessary since we know how it ends for Keith and the rest.

Whenever I see videos of the NXIVM seminars, I still wonder how people couldn't tell it was all a scam.

I am actually enjoying this season since it seems more focused on the other side. These people are delusional ... but they are also full adults with full ability to consent. I am struggling to see where any of this justifies a LIFE SENTENCE for anyone involved. Perhaps there is some merit to the racketeering charges. But LIFE in prison?

Just watched episode 3... so many crying women, so much giving up control and then being upset that they did. That Nancy woman is teaching the amazing course for empowerment and in this episode she's weeping how she was always seeking approval, which was based on her mother berating her when she was diagnosed with dyslexia as a child. Also Tourette's girl being all broken up because Tourette's boy is sticking up for Keith Raniere. You could see that her family life was full of stress. That scene in the kitchen with her parents was hella tense. What a bunch of total frau crap, all those women wanting someone to tell them what to think.

Most of what comes out of Keith's and Nancy's mouth is just a bunch of incomprehensible babble - I lose the point of the so-called lesson in 15 seconds.

I’m really enjoying this season so far. I continue to have a lot of compassion for Nancy. I really respect that Isabella got the hell out as soon as she learned about the crazy shit that was going on and I love that she did not let Mark manipulate her.

Watching Mark's wife groom him before the trial made me barf. He's such a total cunt.

Their teachings are classic word salad so it’s hard for me to accept or believe that it helped anyone’s Tourette’s but somehow it seems that it did. That is perhaps the most shocking thing of all, if true.

I am sad because the one handsome man, Nipsy (Hustle) has aged like curdled milk. These folks all aged a lot in a few years. Especially Nancy.

I HATED Nancy in the first season- I thought she was utterly evil and contemptuous letting women be treated like this (and it was even scarier because she came across so warm). I really thought that she was like Gislaine(sp) Maxwell of something.

Now I realize that I was incredibly wrong about her and that I feel very bad for her. I was not expecting that.

I'm waiting to see if Mark has moved on to a third cult yet. I'm betting after Ramtha and NXIVM he has since gone to Scientology.

Yes- That Mark gives me the creeps. It looks like he even had his jacked tooth fixed.

The people all seem Type A insufferable. A few of them seem alright.

Does Mark’s wife still sleep in a dog bed?

I kinda feel Nancy has no excuse. She’s not a child and wasn’t when she met Keith. I feel slightly more sympathetic toward her daughter though.

R20, agreed. However, I thought she was evil in Season 1. She is clearly not. She seems like a sweet and eccentric woman who simply fucked up.

R20 I feel the same. She's a psychologist for fuck's sake, they train you about the ethics of patient control in psych school. She should have known better.

Nippy is apparently a right winger, which is unfortunate because he was the only likable one.

I did feel bad for Isabella in the last episode. It was great though that she did not let her gratitude cloud her judgment.

R23- Well fuck Nipsy then.

A friend of mine is a good friend and acolyte to Nancy. He swears he owes his successful career to her, and it's clear others feel the same way. I also feel differently about her after these episodes, but can't get over the gobbledygook she's selling. (And it's so clear she wants to fuck Keith.)

SPOILER ALERT: Nancy Salzman is currently in federal prison serving out a 41-month sentence handed down in her case. Totally unjustified, in my view.

From what I've seen, Nancy's teachings were fucked up, but not criminal. I do feel sorry for her. Loren, on the other hand, was one of the leaders of DOS, and that was definitely criminal, so I feel a lot less for her.

What these crooks were selling was a simple variation on Cognitive Behavioral therapy packaged as a New Age thingy with somewhat different terminology.

The HBO doc sanitized a lot of the teachings. The India Oxenburg doc on Starz went into more details about what that SOP group Nippy was in charge of actually taught. Keith would say things like he could make a baby rapeable, if guys see things they want to fuck just grab the "thing" and fuck it.

He told women in a sneering voice they survived being raped, didn't they? You survived being molested? So what? Like it was their fault.

He raped a 12 year old.

And Nippy and Mark and Nancy were there and sanctioned all that stuff. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

Yeah, R29, I feel like the HBO doc is pulling a lot of punches over how fucked up NXIVM really was. The directors of this series used to belong to NXIVM, so they aren't exactly unbiased sources since some of the former members are likely friends of theirs.

Nancy comes across well in this series, but she's just as full of shit as Keith is/was. Both of them are masters at spewing wordsalad psychobabble and making it sound like they're telling you something profound, but if you really listen closely to what they're saying, you'll realize it's all nonsense. In Keith's case -- which Nancy mentioned -- he's trying to tear you down so he can manipulate you more easily. No way did Nancy not know Keith brainwashed her daughter, Lauren, into fucking him and helping run the whole DOS sex cult.

Speaking of which, it's a mystery for the ages how a gross, pudgy little troll like Keith convinced people he was some kind of visionary and the women who joined should sleep with him. All the scenes of him kissing the women or showing affection toward them are vomit-inducing.

Hey Mark - you're fooling no one.

I would maybe have an iota of respect/sympathy for Nancy if she just admitted that she fucked up, behaved very poorly and was misjudged in trusting and believing him. But she doesn't.

Nancy threw her children to the wolf. Keith tried to force Nancy's 18 year old daughter to sleep with him and he was sleeping with her other daughter.

The lead prosecutor has dead eyes.

Those fucking scarves! HIDEOUS!

This last episode was absolutely disgusting. And that’s even with the show sort of understating what the crimes were.

Mark and his wife have a weird father/daughter dynamic.

This season is better to me because it is little Mark and Sara. Those two crying and acting put out when they were not so innocent themselves.

Keith with the women was an asshole. Using her family to lock that woman up for 2 years. Lauren got off easy, I think she should have gotten some jail time too.

This episode enrages me. That these idiots were so caught up in the word soup and cock docking of that greasy Keith Ranieri that they would imprison someone for two years is infuriating.

Lauren and Keith need to be picked up for good. And that attorney defending Keith is douchebag scum. How does a sleezeball like that sleep at night?

Disturbing episode. I was wondering if the show would cover the woman locked up for two years, because it's one of the darkest stories to come out of NXIVM.

So Nancy defends child abuse and when confronted about it says it's all Keith's fault and takes no responsibility. Just wow.

Keith telling Camila the penis size of him and another guy, says he knows her is bigger and knows each of their measurements. WTF?

^^^ Keith says HIS is bigger. Then wants slaves that are young and shorter than him. He is a freak.

Did anyone watch the finale? Still not much sympathy here for Nancy. It’s a sad use of her life but it was hers to waste.

The documentary presents Salzman too sympathetically.

Federal agents raided Salzman’s homehome seizing $523,000 in cash. She was arrested and charged with racketeering conspiracy and identity theft several months later, reports Time. Salzman pleaded guilty in March 2019 saying in court: “I accept that some of what I did was not just wrong, but criminal. If I could go back and do it all over again, I would. But I can’t.” According to a document from the DOJ, each charge of racketeering conspiracy carries a sentence of 20 years imprisonment if convicted. Identity theft carries an additional maximum sentence of 15 years.

The Bronfmans spent $6.5 million on an apartment in the Trump International Hotel & Tower in New York for Salzman to use, and millions more to pay for lawsuits against NXIVM’s enemies.

Nancy was trying to make herself look good taking care of her parents and look sympathetic crying. But she knew.

Who was the black bald chick who was in the group with Nikki defending Keith? Was she an actress because she looks familiar.

The bald woman was Michelle who does resemble someone I can’t put my finger on, but she isn’t an actress. She was referred to in season 1 as “Rachel”, Jane Doe’s master. There was a whole episode about Jane Doe’s experience in DOS and with Keith in season 1.

I have compassion for Nancy because Keith manipulated her quite brilliantly from the go and I feel like I can understand how, overtime, Nancy came to rationalize and dismiss more and more that she knew was wrong. If she wasn’t completely under Keith’s thrall and manipulation she would have protected her daughters for example, but she didn’t. And I don’t doubt she loves her daughters very much.

The filmmakers said that over the course of season 2’s filming she gradually came more and more to grips with facing the truth about Keith and her own participation/ enabling. I think it makes sense that she was struggling to own the responsibility of her choices. And I have compassion for her because unlike Keith, I don’t think she’s a bad person. That’s my take on it anyway.

I found the story Nancy told of Keith letting Pam sit in her own feces without a care in the world really chilling. Mainly because Pam had been with him for decades from his earliest days. She was with him before he met Nancy and made Nxium. She loved him so much and he did not give a shit about her at all.

OOPS!

I think three years wasn't enough for Nancy

Lauren, Nancy's daughter should have seen the inside of a jail too.

If there is more to cover in a third season, I only hope they get rid of that God awful title credit song.

Yeah, the theme song is horrendous.

the theme song is by Bonnie, the wife of Mark who was featured in the first season. It reminds me of The Affair theme song I used to ff through it.

Mark should make Bonnie sleep in a dog bed to make up for that ethical breach of a theme song. Oh, wait. . .

Mark didn’t make Bonnie sleep in a dog bed. That was the “penance” she gave herself.

[quote]Yeah, the theme song is horrendous.

I think it works because it’s so creepy.

Pretty good ending to the series. One of the biggest problems with the show is it seemed to downplay a lot of the more extreme aspects of NXIVM, but the last two episodes didn't hold back on showing how much of a monster Keith really is.

I feel sympathetic to Nancy, because she was clearly coming to terms with how much she enabled Keith's horrible actions. But that doesn't dismiss how she was complicit in a huge scam. It's fucked up how Keith had sex with both Nancy and Lauren.

Nicki Clyne and the other NXIVM 5 members all need to be deprogrammed from Keith's brainwashing. Their grasp on reality is tentative at best. Unfortunately, they seem to be lost causes.

What were those light signals they were exchanging from the prison? Morse code?

Probably. Or some kind of equivalent Keith came up with.

I feel like they were just pretending to communicate. 😂

How many prisons allow inmates to send signals to people waiting outside?

Not sure when that part was filmed but right now he’s in Tucson. It seems like the trial happened in 2019 and he was sentenced in 2021.

Wikipedia mentions he was being held at the Brooklyn House of Detention after his arrest…I live in Brooklyn and it’s on a regular city street so no one could really tell them they can’t stand there, I guess. Maybe that’s where he was when they were “signaling” to him.

I love the spazzy guy who was "communicating" with that little light. It looked like he would quickly do a letter, put his hand over the light, do another letter, etc. But there is no way, at that speed, that Keith could possibly follow. It looked absolutely demented. Par for the course, I guess.

I doubt Keith cares about interpreting the torch signals. He just gets off on knowing that even while he's locked away in prison, they are still under his control and turning up with torches.

Nancy said after she fixed Keith breakfast he would lay around on his sofa and others assumed he was working. He used Nancy because he would have been too lazy to do all those lesson plans.

I completely missed The Vow season 2 when it was released

Who was that HOT Mexican police officer?

I honestly do not understand what the crime is here or why this guy is even in prison, let alone for life. The majority of these women were privileged white women over the age of 18 who not only consented to the lifestyle, but many actually wanted the status of being in the inner circle. He didn't murder anyone or actively try to destroy their lives in the press, like the Scientologists.

To me this is why men and women will never be equal. Women, like men, can make bad, embarrassing choices which might be shameful. The difference is that women can blame these poor choices they themselves actively paid large sums of money for, consensually participated in and then claim it was all abuse.

I watched the first series and it got tedious after a while. Some of these women had too much free time and too much spare money. I'd be out the door with the madetory, all night volleyball sessions. Also, many of these people (men and women) seem to be chasing spiritual highs with histories of being members of other cults prior to this. Did he traffic tons of underage women? His penalty is harsher than Giz Maxwell.

Oh look. A men's right's activist has joined the convo.

I do agree that Keith - as utterly horrendous as he was - didn't deserve the sentence he received. But I don't think it was "reverse" sexism that earned him the sentence. Just that he was the clear cut leader of a cult and, over the past few years, our society has correctly grasped just how damaging those can be for the people trapped within them. Even if they got there on their own accord or with good intentions.

He blackmailed these women by demanding "collateral."

R69 - I agree about the cults, but what was the actual crime that resulted in life in prison? Also, I think women, probably due to are puritanical society, are reluctant to take agency over their own actions, especially when it comes to sexuality. If you want to be branded with a hot iron, play volleball, and listen to this wack job, that is your choice and your agency. They were not forced into it and could leave it anytime. It wasn't like they were chained in the basement and held as sex slaves. If your brainwashed and can leave, why is one responsible for your weak will.

Gee, somehow the entire justice system in New York found him guilty. Yet some here think he should have gone free.

If only there were a way to find out what crimes he was convicted of….

I agree with R68.

There’s a lot of circumstantial evidence that Raniere was poisoning many of the women around him, including Pam Cafritz. That wasn’t covered, as I recall, in either season of The Vow.

Too bad for Keith he couldn't get pregnant for some sympathy points like Elizabeth Holmes.

It wasn’t a couple of things he did that were dangerous, destructive and ultimately illegal, but lots of things. He did go after families for the pleasure of destroying them. He did present himself as well-intended when he was anything but (racketeering). He did prey on underage girls. He did blackmail women into complying to his demands for sex. He did intentionally con people. He did use coercion, including deliberately deceitful and manipulative tactics that preyed on people’s trust and good faith. He did use his access to great wealth to hire teams of lawyers to harass and intimidate people through the court system (just like Scientology). He did manipulate and maliciously abuse a family’s trust in him to force a young woman to submit to him. Which by the way resulted in her being forced to stay in a room (or else!) for 2 fucking years. He did successfully con a very large amount of people including some that were very wealthy and politically connected…

He may not be the genius that he claimed to be, but he’s no dummy. He is a very dangerous con artist who is really really good at it. He has a true criminal mindset which means the chances of him being able to change his behavior is extremely unlikely. I also think, based on what some people have said, including an investigative journalist, there is still a lot we the public don’t even know about.

The extreme sentence conveys the message loudly and clearly that he is a danger to the public and always will be.

The India Oxenberg documentary goes in harder on what he did.

The Vow (season 1, anyway) sanitises things somewhat, I think to garner the footage and support of Mark Vicente.

Bonnie’s singing tho 🥴

^^It made my windows shatter. The cunt.

The whistle blowers were all so thirsty and whoreish about their own media coverage in the first season.

[quote]He blackmailed these women by demanding "collateral.”

The DOS women were told upfront that it was ultra secret and in order to keep them silent the women would need to turn over extremely embarrassing information. They all agreed to that scheme upfront. None of that is blackmail.

They tried to portray India Oxenberg as a little blonde angel in her series, that was a bit much for me.

Bonnie was just in the Obi-Wan Kenobi series. She played baby Luke’s Aunt Beru. I’d recognize those eyes anywhere.

She sang Luke a lullaby, until Jabba The Hutt swooped in & ate her.

The Battlestar Galactica actress is really fucked in the head.

[quote They tried to portray India Oxenberg as a little blonde angel in her series, that was a bit much for me.

For me as well. It was a self-serving doc so that India could take control of the narrative about her at the time. Understandable that she would be hugely embarrassed by what was being written about her. And it’s understandable that her celebrity mom would pull the strings to make it happen. But it was rushed, sometimes passive aggressive and whiny. I didn’t find her that likable in part because she sounded so rehearsed during her interview segments. I do feel a lot of compassion for her regarding getting ensnared though. Plus, Catherine did a great deal to bring that cult down.

So, I see Nicki is amongst us.

Hi girl. How’s that Q life?

Just because they willingly turned over the blackmail documents, R82, does not change the criminal act. It is blackmail.

Could the women have asked for the material back if they left dos? No.

This is analogous to when a bf takes nude pictures of his gf. Then threatens to publish them if she does not comply with his wishes. The fact that she agreed to taking the photos is irrelevant. Even if she stays in the relationship, the way he uses the photos is blackmail.

The threat of the collateral being released - ie, Lauren Salzman refusing to return Sarah’s nudes and videos - is as coercive as if she did release them.

It’s a huge ethical lapse.

Ok, I’m watching season 2.

Michele the black urban farmer is a prime example of the lack of accountability of all of the NXIVM people.

“I did leave! But mean Frank Parlato accused me of paling around with psycho Nicki Clyne. I mean, I was. But then I went back to UwU Keith 🥺”

Plus in terms of presentation, she’s a splice between Michelle Obama at her most sanctimonious and Mary Cosby the grandpa fucker from RHOSLC at her most crazy.

Sit down, Little Girl, R90!

Mark is gay, right?

That was Mark's second cult, it is laughable him acting high and mighty now.

With Raniere I know it was all about money, control and sex. But unless I missed something he didn’t seem to live that lavish a lifestyle. Didn’t he live in one of those average looking townhouses? It wasn’t clear to me and if there was a mansion I didn’t see it. The Seagrams sisters provided the private plane. Sex and control over people seemed just as or more important as money.

He was bankrupt after his MLM collapsed in the 1990s so he “owned” very little of NXIVM.

Those people loved like pigs. Everyone I saw the video footage where they were in someone's house, I wanted to slap them and shout, "Clean this mess!"

My apologies. Somehow some vodka was mixed in with my Pepsi and my salad and my cigarette. What I meant was:

Those people lived like pigs. Every time I saw the video footage where they were in someone's house, I wanted to slap them and shout, "Clean this mess!"

Long post ahead: I was curious to see what was going on with Keith’s true believers so I checked out some of their videos on YouTube. I could only make it about 5 minutes into a video before I found myself getting too irritated to continue. Except for one. I watched the entire 2 hours. The host was this very non threatening chill type who still asked direct questions.

One of things that baffles me is that many of the devout are genuinely intelligent and well educated. Being conned isn’t really about a person’s intelligence, but after all the evidence they continue to deny everything? This is a summary of their various defenses of Keith. They are less succinct than I am writing it here: *all the defendants who plead guilty did so because they were under tremendous pressure from the prosecution and were looking at serious jail time.

*Lauren’s testimony was sad but irrelevant. And, it’s not unusual for a person after a bad break up to look back and only see the bad.

*Camilla’s text messages were either taken out of context or doctored by the FBI.

*The child pornography was planted by the FBI. This is presented as if it is a known and accepted fact.

*Keith didn’t get his due process in regards to Camila because she didn’t testify on the stand.

*DOS was meant to be hardcore and everyone was told upfront.

*DOS was loving and supportive so everyone knew they could talk to their masters if they didn’t want to do something.

*Everyone was told before they joined that they would be branded, but they didn’t have to do it if they didn’t want to.

*Sarah lied about her branding experience and if you watch the video of the ceremony you can see she was bossing everybody around.

*All of the pro-Keith people were threatened by the prosecution.

*India said she was fine during her DOS days until her mother got to her. Also she knew if she didn’t turn on Keith she could go to jail.

*If you asked about all the sex with Keith stuff they would get indignant and say they are not obliged to discuss their personal lives.

*If you ask about all the sex stuff with Keith in regards to others they say it’s not their business to discuss other people’s sex life.

*If some negative aspect of NXIVM and or DOS is pointed out they say it’s not their job to sell you on the organization.

*The prosecution did not meet their burden of proof.

*The prosecution is corrupt and Moira Penza was motivated by ambition not a true desire for justice.

There was even more but I’ve gone on long enough.

R98, all of the cult were intelligent. That’s why they were in the cult. Smart people can be ensnared too, if you use the right psychological manipulation.

That was Raniere’s gimmick. He knew there is a contingent of people out there who were smart and ambitious and had money/connections, but were not as successful/famous as they wanted to be. Because they had money, and they were people with drive and skills, they were the perfect pawns for him.

Did anyone get the vibe that Nippy and his Latino best friend were fucking on the side?