Borderline personality Is A Cluster B Disorder

Don’t forget us!!!

Everyone knows BPD is Cluster B.

R2 Yes it is commonly acknowledged to be cluster b. But very few people like to acknowledge that it is fundamentally a disorder of extreme aggression on par with narcissism and sociopathy. It's often treated as a trauma response. But BPDs behave very differently than those with ptsd or complex ptsd or chronic depression ( disorders thought to result at least partly from trauma).

R1 It's odd but for some reason people simply forget about histrionics. Sadly ironic for a group that adores attention so deeply!

Many people seem incapable of telling apart BPD and antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder, although it is very different from both. Eating disorders and self-harm, for instance, are frequent symptoms of BPD, but not typically seen in people with NPD or APD.

Histrionics seem less harmful though? Shallow creatures but not as actively vengeful and aggressive.

Imo the real issue is that there's a reluctance to diagnose women with antisocial personality disorder. I think BPD is overdiagnosed in women, while antisocial personality disorder is underdiagnosed.

R5 Yeah agreed. I am floored by how many people casually claim NPD of people these days. Most of those people really aren't NPD. An example would be the Depp-Heard trial. Heard has been professionally evaluated to have BPD and histrionic personality disorders yet lots of people online confidently claim she has NPD. NPD weirdly seems to be the go-to diagnosis.

To me, the most important "feature" of BPD that sets its apart from other, somewhat similar disorders, is a tendency to self-harm, be it by classic cutting, burning yourself, starving yourself, or getting yourself into all kinds of dangerous situations. Even ruining a relationship through aggressive outbursts or unpredictable behavior can be a form of subconscious self-harm/self-punishment.

If only Princess Diana had lived as the prime BPD ambassador. Ms. Jolie just isn't enough these days

R8, tbh, when I said that people can't tell apart BPD and APD, I meant that they tend to "diagnose" someone with BPD when I think it should really be APD.

Borderlines can be a nightmare to deal with, but from my understanding they're not "evil" or completely devoid of empathy. A real-life bunny boiler, for instance, should be diagnosed with APD, not BPD.

All cluster Bs result from unresolved trauma, with associated attachment disorders and underlying early maladaptive schemas.

R6 That is very true.

I have a feeling BPD is one of those disorders that can flourish or be nipped in the bud depending on how people around them react to it. BPDs are usually surrounded by a group of enablers/ fans who encourage the behavior. There's a decent portion of BPDs who might have led more healthy lives had people established boundaries with them instead of following their every whim like cult members.

Cluster Bs are no joke. Do NOT fuck them, date them or marry them. They can be entertaining as casual friends though but keep them at arms length. One person I hung out a few times with was a clear narcissist but he was hilarious and fun to be around at bars because he didn't give a fuck. But I would never want to date or marry someone like that. Narcissists are usually good storytellers because they are great at telling stories. Now borderline is a different story.

I also had a shift supervisor who was borderline and she overshared with everyone about her childhood sex abuse, her abusive father, her criminal brother and everything awful in her life. She moved across country to get away from her family. It became obvious she was manipulative, vindictive and using every excuse to be a shitty worker. She also would get jealous of anyone who outperformed her at work and got praise from the manager. She would gaslight and manipulate others using guilt and playing the victim and if you said something that pissed her off, she'd stare at you looking pissed and then run off and cry. She also go home early all the time using her "anxiety" as an excuse. It became tedious to deal with. She eventually transferred to another store, quit and moved across country back to her hometown. I felt bad for the guys who date her because she's pretty and she's emotionally very abusive to her boyfriends who usually very nice guys.

was thinking about a casual ex of mine and am fairly sure they had histrionic personality disorder. Was a stripper in the past, very superficial affect, charming to everyone, worked off attractiveness. The clincher was that we were only together about 5 months and I broke it off because I could never get a deeper connection. I barely could even get them to talk to me one-to-one. But to this day mutual friends still ask me about it as if it was a meaningful and important relationship and every time I don't understand it. But of course one of the characteristics of HPD is that they think a relationship is deeper than it is....

Anyway, I did not find it to be a dangerous or harmful relationship. Just devoid of real meaning and connection.

R14 I've known this girl with BPD since we were kids and let me tell you, therapy does wonders for BPDs, it was like night and day in like 3 months.

Really, R17? I always hear about how hard to treat BPD is, and that many therapists won't even work with borderlines.

Also there is A LOT of overlap and vague boundaries differentiating the various cluster Bs.

And yes, try not to have a relationship with them if possible. Duh.

R17 I can see why some therapist would refuse, maybe she was an outlier?

She quit therapy and regressed to being a mess tho, so thats that.

You might find this paper of interest, OP:

Exploring the Dark Side: Relationships between the Dark Triad Traits and Cluster B Personality Disorder Features

Antisocial personality disorder is by far the worst. Many criminals, killers and rapists have this condition. Borderline isn't pretty but it can be treated. Narcissists can be mixed bag but the high-functioning ones can channel it into a profession they're passionate about. But I don't think antisocial has any end result except prison or death.

I have long suspected that I am on the autism spectrum, but also have many borderline traits. Maybe I have both, who knows. The symptoms are so similar, oddly enough. The reason that I lean towards autism is that the other kids thought that I was ‘retarded’ in elementary school. I literally had no friends, but the teachers wanted me to skip grades because I performed well. I remember strings of numbers easily. I obsess about things. I’m socially awkward, have a fear of abandonment, am impulsive and engage in risk taking behaviors, just like a borderline. I have never been diagnosed with anything but depression.

What's the diagnosis for internet armchair psychiatrists who are OBSESSED with "dark triad" everything?

R23 That does sound like the autism spectrum more - my impression of borderlines is that they are good at connecting with people. What I have noticed about people on the autistic spectrum is the sheer number of them who talk about longing to have friends and being sad that they can't get them. Possibly that makes you think you have BPD traits but regardless it's possible you have some BPD, it's hard to know without knowing you of course.

You should get diagnosed, r23. It'd make your life a lot easier and give you some important clarity. (And while you're at it, you might want to get an assessment done for your attachment style through an AAI. If you have an unresolved trauma, or a disorganized attachment style, doing attachment repair work through IPF would go a long way towards healing the personality disorder (If you in fact have one) and reduce the likelihood of future depressions.)

I had a younger friend who has ADHD, Aspergers and what I now believe is NPD (but with BPD aspects), and figuring her out was a challenge because the autism and personality disorder behaviors often appear similair on the outside although they operate very differently psychologically

One big thing about NPD is that the person will keep bigging themselves up, talking about how great they are and expecting praise (see Trump). If they don't have that, you should definitely question whether it really is NPD. Covert NPDs do exist but aren't as common.

There is a naivete and lack of calculation to most autistic people, for better or for worse, that is missing from most NPD behavior. Just my experience.

[quote] BPDs behave very differently than those with ptsd or complex ptsd

Regular old PTSD, yes, but BPD and C-PTSD are often comorbid and they are similar enough that they often get misdiagnosed for each other. Pete Davidson, for example, was initially misdiagnosed as having BPD but it turns out he just has depression, anxiety and severe CPTS-D.

I believe, rightly or wrongly, if you want real relationships and friends, and you feel bad about not having connections, etc, and TRULY feel this way, you're not just performatively expressing it to manipulate, you aren't fully in the B cluster.

Autistic people are very awkward and most I know are some of the most innocent and vulnerable people I've encountered. Even when they're rude they almost never intend it. They are the more likely to be victims of narcissists and borderlines who want to control them same deal with bipolar people and depressed people.

Agree R30. The worst I've seen is that they can be arrogant and repetitive.

Some Cluster B personality disorders do eventually get the sense that they're the ones that are "off" or "wrong," usually after a lifetime of fighting losing battles to get everyone to recognize their superiority and wondering why everyone thinks they're selfish assholes. Especially histrionics and narcissists. They don't reform, per se, but I've seen a few realize that the way they treat and think of others doesn't serve them OR others very well and for their own benefit and because they aren't sociopaths and are capable of having some feelings for others, they start to feel bad and try to be different. It's not exactly empathy but some self awareness is possible. Of course by the time they get there they're old and alone and no one wants to deal with their horrible asses so they spend the rest of their lives feeling sorry for themselves and seeking attention that way. But I've seen it happen.

Young males with antisocial pd are the most terrifying of all. Mainly because young men lack empathy in general. You’ll often find them sniggering in court when confronted with their crimes.

R32 That's a good point. I remember watching a documentary about the Rhys Jones shooting (a 16-year-old boy almost randomly shot a 11-year-old boy walking home) - well, the killer and his accomplices were laughing in court about it and the police said that they weren't going to stop that because it would affect the jury. The jury who are usually made up of normal people would see their indifference and callousness.

To add to the above point, psychopathy and antisocial PD can be hard to separate out but psychopaths will at least pretend to try to manipulate people.

This is why I don't understand why we're told "bullies need love." There are kids who are clearly antisocial and don't care about others including their family. And there's some point where it's not just typical childhood brattiness and impulse where they'll grow out of it. Schools have weird policies where you can't remove kids with obvious conduct disorders that torture other kids and teachers even if they are disruptive to everyone's education. It allows their behavior to escalate and get worse. Teachers can't do much because administration and parents don't allow them to.

I was in a casual relationship with a man who I now think had NPD, or at least some traits. He was fun, great in bed, flirty, but he love-bombed me (sex-bombed, really) and he ghosted me in a cruel way. Now he has a girlfriend and they've been together for about a year and already have a one month old baby. He must have really done a number on her. I just got a taste of NPD, I can't imagine what it would be like to be get the full love bomb experience. Well it could be that, or maybe he truly loves her, who knows? People with NPD can be a lot of fun, but you do need to hold them at arm's length, as I tried to do, and even then it can be dicey.

How many posters in this thread are female?

R36 Doesn't sound NPD to me, and am not sure what the point of your story was.

While I think there are big differences between BPD, APD and NPD - especially BPD and the other two - people with these disorders tend to show similar behaviors in the early stages of a relationship. They're often very charming, magnetic, exciting, and can make you feel like the center of the universe. Borderlines will often admit to mental issues early on, and talk about their trauma a lot - unfortunately, a young and naive (or just naive) mind will oftentimes be intrigued instead of alarmed, and put a lot of effort into "saving" the borderline. So I think there's a manipulative aspect to that "openness" and "vulnerability", although it might be subconsious. Plus, when the crazy sets in, the borderline can always shut down criticism by reminding you that you KNEW about their "issues" and trauma!!!!

Spot on, R39. Then when you dump them for being horrible pieces of shit to you, they'll cry to their friends that they made themselves vulnerable and got their hearts broken for their honesty and authenticity.

R28 Those with Cptsd tend to be avoidant and withdrawn and avoid asking for help while BPDs remain highly social and extroverted. And a BPD will not only request help but scream at, bully, and defame anyone who they felt was not sufficiently protective of them. Cptsd will be wary of new people while BPDs will slobber over someone they just met.

R35 What often happens is that teachers and administrators will side with bullies and express indifference to their victims. Some types of adults who get into education ( not all of course) have serious issues with arrested development. It's like they are teenagers themselves.

Borderlines tend to engage in bullying campaigns similar to those with NPD. The difference is that they often don't do the bullying directly, instead preferring to use other people to attack their target.

R36 this is a gay men’s website.

There's an anti-autism troll who seems to confuse autism with narcissistic or antisocial personality disorder. Autistic people are too socially uncoordinated and most just want to be left alone to do whatever obsession they have. Many have intellectual disabilities and verbal and motor complications. In fact they deserve more protections because they are so vulnerable to abuse. Ableism is very real.

Borderlines can be nasty but they're so unstable and fragile that they can't really be diabolical for too long. They threaten suicide all the time and get offended so easily by the tiniest thing. Narcissists and antisocial are great at manipulating and lack empathy in general, the higher functioning they are the more likely they'll be in politics, corporate, entertainment, police, military, etc. I can't see borderlines being successful in any field for too long because they lack that extreme ego and resilience that narcissists and sociopaths have.

R45, piggybacking off that- a lot of our current culture seems to involve a smoke and mirrors approach of "branding" yourself and networking, and that helps people get a leg up in some bullshit fields. Bragging, etc, especially in sales and marketing, and even in law, etc. And that favors narcissists. I think some Aspies mimic this without fully realizing it's disordered behavior because it works for colleagues. And sometimes do it in a less graceful way.

Just my observation.

What personality disorder do people who obsessively accuse anyone who slights them of having NPD suffer from? Because it's an epidemic with catty bitches on social media.

R46 You're right. I personally think American society is one that seems built for extroverted narcissists. All the over formality and making others feel good in a way to gain power and influence over them. This is something foreigners even notice when they visit. It's even worse in companies because it's all about kissing up and being popular not being a good worker. A lot of that corporate bullshit trickled down into social media now because people want to be a brand to make money. Naturally narcissistic people rule social media too and the "self-help" industry. Autistic people who are high functioning can mimic it but you can always tell they're 'on" and are never comfortable. People with poor social skills and extreme introversion are hated even if they're intelligent and talented.

R47 I asked a similar question at R24. Ignored. This thread is another dark triad circle jerk.

R49 my uncle by marriage is a psychiatrist and he once told me that most psychiatrists go into that line of work mainly to understand themselves. I think that's pretty fucked up.

Cool thread I love DL for its scope in bringing in thoughtful subjects from random aspects of life. Even if they are not sexual preference related.

OP is a weirdo.

OP is that idiot that makes threads about BPD because his so-called ex had it and now has to let everyone know. OP needs mental help.

I also think it's easy for narcissists to have relationships that last a very long time because they're such good actors. The damage that narcissists do is much more intense. Borderlines can't maintain relationships because they'll always threaten to break up or commit suicide and push others away in passice aggressive ways. The only people who would be willing to tolerate such instability for so long would have to be damaged themselves. Though there's plenty of that. Narcissists can get married and have kids and maintain an illusion of normalcy for longer. They get people who will invest so much of their lives into them and only show their true abusive colors too far into the relationship. Narcissists love having kids because that's an endless supply of validation for them. Perfectly normal well-adjusted people fall for a narcissists because it's not easy to suspect them. And the red flags are so subtle and you'd need to have experience to understand. Borderlines are very obvious after you get to know them but people who have low self-esteem can get sucked into them because of having too much empathy and wanting to help the borderline.

Technically, there are no clusters anymore.

Never let a borderline into your life . They are evil full stop

Pop psychology is just horoscopes for some people..

I know a few aspies who are mercilessly vindictive

Does anybody have experience with Quiet Borderline Personality Disorder? You don’t tend to hear about it so much.

OP, the majority of us aren’t even thinking about them unlike you.

[quote]Borderlines can be nasty but they're so unstable and fragile that they can't really be diabolical for too long.

That's why I find it weird when people describe borderlines as master manipulators and conniving schemers (or when such people are diagnosed with BPD). Emotional instability and impulsivity - key features of classic BPD - make it difficult to plan ahead/unlikely you'll actually go through with a plan. A classic borderline will emotionally blackmail you and show extreme spontaneous reactions to what others would perceive as minor conflicts/inconveniences, but cooking up some elaborate scheme to take revenge on someone? Systematic manipulation (as opposed to behavior that is manipulative but highly automated)? That's not typical borderline behavior imo.

That said, how frequent is classic "pure" BPD? There are probably more people that have traits of multiple personality disorders.

R61, Jodi Arias is borderline. Their perceived offenses are so out of proportion or even imagined, that to see these creatures on a fast bullet train to revenge . They don’t relent , the rage builds up and is insatiable. Horrible people

R61 is a borderline. They ARE master manipulators . It’s all so calculated

I spent 20 years working in the criminal justice system, which is basically cluster b central. Do not under any circumstances let a Borderline into your life, disaster awaits.

Borderlines are life destroyers.

R45 and r46 are the same autistic asshole doing damage control- “ autistics are brilliant, yet too stupid for everyday life and are absolved of any culpability.” No one is buying this crap anymore! Autism is self centered and envious to the extreme. You delusional cunts think it’s the world against you .: no! It’s you against the world

Many people with BPD and other personality disorders think their schemes are very clever and they often have an inflated sense of how much they're able to manipulate a situation, when in fact they're very transparent and have behavior patterns and triggers that are very obvious to almost everyone else. .So they aren't "master manipulators" in that regard.

In my own extended family and people I've known, I've noticed that people with personality disorders tend to get into relationships with other people with personality disorders... just completely different ones. Narcissists and sociopaths often coexist, for example. Sociopaths know how to flatter the narcissist and narcissists will stick around a sociopath partner out of pride and insecurity and because what the sociopath does to others doesn't bother the narcissist all that much.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Bump for sanity

R37

ARE female or just IDENTIFY as female…

R68, I read the article. She’s born evil and I don’t believe it’s mental illness. They let her out of prison after a few years after murdering her mom and then she butchers another woman nearly decapitated her and almost killed another lady, and they sentenced her to 37 years?! why is she even eligible to get out? Black eyes and truly dangerous. I could murder people like this

Isn't this what that psychologist at the Depp v. Heard trial said Amber Heard has?

In fact Depp has BPD

She was just having a bad day, r68.

I took part in group therapy (dialectic behavioral therapy) which is often recommended as a treatment for borderline personality disorder. I was never diagnosed with BPD, and don’t know if any others in the group had that diagnosis. However, what really stood out to me is that most of us had life experiences that made it difficult to know what “normal” relationships looked like, and hadn’t necessarily had the experience of feeling consistently cared for and protected during our younger years. So, that led us to learn emotional regulation and coping skills in adulthood.

Based on this experience, I think some people who superficially fit the diagnostic criteria for BPD (to the extent that they can benefit from the same treatment program) don’t have a disorder as much as social skills/emotional regulation challenges that can be overcome with the right support. Group therapy is really helpful because you realize you’re not alone. Mental health challenges can be very isolating, and admitting to mental health challenges can create a situation where other people in your life are quick to blame you for every difficult experience (a lot of people refuse to deal with their own shit, I’ve found).

You can’t “fix” a person in your life who is struggling, and you can’t help someone who won’t help themselves. Trust red flags (like someone who tells you about every difficult experience they’ve gone through when you barely know them), and establish firm boundaries. But, I think it does a general disservice to talk about BPD/BPD-like traits, in a way that encourages shame, when help is available (assuming help is accessible) for those who want to move on from this.

R75 is still manipulative

There’s a ton of stigma around mental health issues, R76, and this stigma prevents a lot of people from seeking help when they need it. If you feel that the correct response is to try and make people feel ashamed for having problems, you’re have plenty of company. However, it’s a pity when people who could benefit from mental health support are to embarrassed to seek help, since they’ve been told that admitting to a problem makes them a bad person who doesn’t deserve the slightest consideration from others, and will always be irredeemable.

Provided someone has access to them, cognitive and dialectical behavioral therapies can make a tremendous difference in being about to navigate relationships and deal with ups and downs in life. It’s about giving yourself a frame for experiencing the world that is more pragmatic and reality-based than emotionally charged.

That is not to say there aren’t some people who really can’t function within normal social expectations, no matter what scaffolds they are given, but such people generally don’t want to behave in a socially acceptable way. But, I think more people who could benefit would be inclined to seek help, provided they weren’t encouraged to see seeking help as shameful.

[quote]BPDs are usually surrounded by a group of enablers/ fans who encourage the behavior. There's a decent portion of BPDs who might have led more healthy lives had people established boundaries with them instead of following their every whim like cult members.

Perhaps, except that they're surrounded by enablers because those are the only people they choose to be surrounded by. There is no "might have".

R78 Yep BPD and NPD can't take criticism. So they seek out people who are meek and have self-esteem issues and use them as their "supply." They push away people who do give them constructive criticism even if that person does care for them. Same deal with addicts, they'll push away people who care for their health and choose to be around enablers.

OP sounds sociopathic with OCD kicking in and exacerbating her bipolar disorder.

In other words, a typical DLer. Except for the lack of trans hate.

Borderlines are pure wickedness. I detest them

You spot it, you got it r81.

R82, is a borderline playing their wicked mind games

My therapist will not under any circumstances take on a borderline patient . She said too many horror stories she heard from other therapists

Y'all are...

I rejoice when borderlines actually kill themselves

Why, r86?

[quote]My therapist will not under any circumstances take on a borderline patient . She said too many horror stories she heard from other therapists

Sounds like a very unprofessional and foolish therapist.

Commenting on other patients? What about confidentiality?

Stigmatizing those who seek therapy? Probably malpractice and how does s/he plan to make a living if people stop seeking therapy?

Or, you could just be lying.

r87 Because they're a sociopath. One of the other cluster Bs. Equally sick. Even if they're joking. That's a fucked up thing to joke about.

R88 I don't think that poster is lying. It's very common that therapists won't take borderline patients. Also, that therapist wasn't breaking confidentiality. Just speaking in general terms.

I knew a therapist who'd work with Borderlines, her colleagues thought she was incredibly brave, because Borderlines are known for turning against their therapists. But my friend didn't do individual therapy, she ran groups for them, and said that it was very worthwhile, because the groups made it possible for her patients to hold jobs and stay out of trouble.

She didn't stay in that field, she went into another specialty, but not because a patient made her life hell. She just found another specialty where there wasn't enough help available to those who needed it.

"I am floored by how many people casually claim NPD of people these days."

R8, I think there really ARE a lot of NPD cases in the public eye. In fields like politics and Hollywood, NPD gives an ambitious person a big advantage! NPDs are intrinsically self-aggrandizing, experts at grabbing attention, ruthless, and good at using others, and you can see how those traits might help in clawing one's way to the top in a competitive field.

I don't think there are that many BPDs in Hollywood, though, they're usually too unstable and self-destructive to compete with all the NPDs (think Heard vs. Depp)

R88, you dumb psychotic , she wasn’t talking about any of her patients. She said she refused to deal with you soul sucking cunts

"Sounds like a very unprofessional and foolish therapist. Commenting on other patients? What about confidentiality?"

R88, have you never heard of a "case history"? You know, when doctors and scientists tell stories about patients they've treated, without revealing the patient's identity, so that other doctors and scientists can learn from their experience?

R92 Yes, it has been found that celebs have higher levels of narcissism than the general population. But I wasn't even talking about celebs but ordinary people casually saying that their ex, family member, and so on has NPD.

I'm tired of everybody fcuking psychologizing everything and everybody. Time for people to suck up more personal responsibility and accountability and, if they're not good with social and communication skills outright, then do what they need to in order to practice at and get the help they need to improve at them. Enough with diagnosing and labeling everybody's bad behavior for which their personality types don't give them license to act like society's assholes.

Exactly r96, it’s not a get out of jail free card .! Many of these types use it as an excuse. A lot of autistic females are really borderline or bipolar

Bump

"But I wasn't even talking about celebs but ordinary people casually saying that their ex, family member, and so on has NPD."

Quite frankly, I think that today's culture is inducing Narcissistic behavior in people who don't necessarily have full-blown personality disorders. Partly it's social media, which has normalized faking one's life and believing that appearances are all that matters. As for the helicopter parents...

What's the basic mind of someone with full-blown NPD? Believing that the rules don't apply to one's self, and that one's self is the only person that matters. And what do helicopter parents tell their spawn? That the rules don't apply to their darlings, and that their darlings are the only people that matter...