Why isn’t Ava Gardner held in the same esteem as Marilyn Monroe?

Bump

She wasn't MESSY enough!

Ava was a tough broad. It's Marilyn's vulnerability that makes her a legend.

BLONDE.

Ava was far more fun and infinitely more intelligent. And sex positive. Hollywood (including the Hollywood Press) prefers dumb, blonde, powerless victims.

Ava wasn't having any of that.

R5 Agreed. I’d rather watch a biopic about Ava than another one about Marilyn.

Last photo of Ava taken shortly before death. She looks great. Even better than she did in the Dirk Bogarde home movies taken years earlier.

A great Ava bio was written by her maid who was with Ava for decades. Their travels together were wild. After Ava's death in London Gregory Peck kindly brought Ava's maid in to work for him.

Because MM practically glowed on screen. She was a sort of a phenomenon. Almost no screen actor or actress had as much charisma. The greatest film stars have it- Ava had it- but not like MM. The great ones drown out their fellow actors whether they should or should not. You can’t take your eyes off them. Doesn’t mean they are great actors either, although some like Bette Davis or Cary Grant were terrific actors.

R8, you know what I think? I think the modern actors- aside from the nepotism uglies who shouldn't be up there anyway- are so pilled up and full of fillers that they lose their glow. Antidepressants to deal with the scrutiny, Botox and dermoplaning for HD screens.

The mass marketing and commercialization of film has destroyed natural beauty and charisma. There cannot be MMs and Avas.

Ava Gardner wearing a track suit? Egads!

I can't believe she willingly chose to fuck that repulsive troll, Mickey Rooney.

Ava was a beautiful and dynamic woman with a likable personality.

Monroe was a star.

One of the biggest travesties in screen history was Kate Beckinsale trying to portray Ava Gardner in The Aviator.

Well, uh, R12, see naw, deah. I take absolute umbrage at that! Ha!

Ava seemed like a broad who could take care of herself. Despite the alcoholism evident on her beautiful face, she didn't have the sense of fragility and doom of a legend like Monroe.

R12 I would have chosen Sela Ward.

Ava was probably the most beautiful of all those stars, but in retrospect her movies as a rule were not that compelling… or campy… or really, anything.

They wouldn’t make for a very interesting revival. I think that’s why she isn’t as discussed now.

Sauced up Ava falls off horse in Spain while playing with young bull.

Why can't we get a great Ava bio film? There's much to explore. She was a riot. Filthy mouth, too.

^^^^

If she had died young and beautiful and eternally victimized, she would have been. But Ava, god bless her, always refused to make herself the victim of anything or anyone. I'd rather she be held in esteem than Monroe.

And I don't think Marilyn had more "glow" than Ava, or whatever crap her estate marketers made up. Ava was more beautiful and had a better body.

Ava really was stunning, especially in Showboat and Mogambo.

A personal favorite of her slightly later early middle period, is Night of the Iguana.

[Quote]She called Aristotle Onassis a “horny little fuck” and mocked Marlon Brando’s erectile dysfunction. She stood up to Louis B. Mayer and Humphrey Bogart—some of Hollywood’s most powerful men—and got drunk with Winston Churchill. She was a firecracker.

R19 Everyone talks about Marilyn’s body but what about Ava? She was smokin.

Everyone also gives Marilyn credit for her befriending black entertainers but so did Ava.

R16 Yeah, her filmography isn’t that memorable. I love The Killers tho.

Because Ava did not try to get the world's approval.

She wasn't even looking for a job in Hollywood nor modelling when discovered.

She never wanted it, and walked away from it.

[quote]r24 Yeah, her filmography isn’t that memorable. I love The Killers tho.

Yes, that is one of her better films. Partially because it wasn’t made at MGM, which was usually so straight laced in her era.

She was gorgeous and highly sexual but not in a way that doesn't make Americans heart go pitter patter. She was strong, funny, and pursued sex because she liked it. Gardner wasn't the specific archetype that this country goes crazy for : the blonde haired sexually used and abused tragic heroine. Who only wanted to be loved! Or some such nonsense. America only loves women who are beautiful victims. Gardner was very beautiful but not a tragedy.

R19 I agree. Marilyn was of course gorgeous but I've heard the silly line about glowing repeated so many times that I think it's something people absorbed just from hearing it again and again.

R12 Yuck I had forgotten about that. I think I blocked it out.

Her butt-chin.

[quote]r12 One of the biggest travesties in screen history was Kate Beckinsale trying to portray Ava Gardner in The Aviator.

Kate B looked beautiful in The Aviator. She didn’t quite have Gardner’s sensually casual air, though.

"But Ava, god bless her, always refused to make herself the victim of anything or anyone."

Because she was always too sauced out of her mind to care. A raging alcoholic and chain-smoker for 35 years.

Ava got dark lines under her eyes in 1952. It was too difficult to conceal them.

Both are sex symbols, but Marilyn’s persona was compliant and obliging. Ava’s persona made her seem like a man-eater and a potential ballbreaker. I don’t think most straight men like that. They want to be in control of their women, so Marilyn is held up and Ava is perceived as sexually aggressive and therefore threatening to their masculinity.

[Quote]A raging alcoholic and chain-smoker for 35 years.

Marilyn was the same + pills, but she couldn't rack up 35 years of it. She died of it. Ava died of pneumonia.

Any good ?

^ No, good

Peck's name over Hayward's face; Hayward's name over Peck's face.

Ava was gorgeous. Marilyn looked like a two bit hooker that she basically was.

Middle-aged Ava retired to Spain.

Ava traveled many parts of the world. It seems telling that Marilyn did not. She never even set foot in France or Italy to my knowledge.

While Marilyn was in Mexico (her mother's birth place) she requested to meet Mexican actress and super star Maria Felix. Felix who loathed the USA refused to meet her. Felix found Marilyn vulgar and pathetic she said in later interviews.

Maria Felix was a strong woman who from the beginning of her career said that she wanted to be a luchadora (conqueror) in her life and in her films. So her film characters are winners - never the victim or sex kitten.

^^ Maria Felix FYI

^ She looks like she would cut a bitch.

Maria Felix would have eaten Marilyn alive. Felix was multilingual, made films in Latin Amrrica, France, Italy, and she had impeccable style. It was kind of her not to meet Marilyn.

[quote]Ava was far more fun and infinitely more intelligent. And sex positive

And bisexual.

Ava's face was too perfectly symmetrical to be that interesting to me, kind of like Margot Robbie. Marilyn and Elizabeth had more fascinating faces.

Marilyn was bisexual as well.

Were her and Lana Turner really lovers?

Because Marilyn took movie audiences hostage, and Ava, though gorgeous, did not, or not as much. Marilyn’s voice, her eyes, her facial expressions, her walk were riveting. And when Marilyn became famous as her own caricature, people watched even more, just to see her perform her own persona.

They were different people, each with her own personality and ambitions. No knock on Ava—she was a sensation—but she just didn’t want what Marilyn had.

BTW, R26 it's spelled strait-laced, as in tight, narrow. Like strait-jacket. Like Straits of Gibraltar.

Because MM died young and beautiful. Ava died well lived but...

That's not Ava, R49.

R49 is that yo mama or yo papa? R49 likes his divas thoroughly fucked over and dead.

Hola amigos!

R 43 that Maria Felix seems like an insufferable bitch, basically the typical basic old diva stereotype.

Marilyn was fascinating, when she was on screen everyone else disappered.

Ava was just another good looking girl you could find everywhere in the street on LA, pretty all you want but she lacked the charisma of Marilyn.

Interestingly Maria Felix was also bi.

R53 So true. All about Eve, first role I think, and when she walks into frame you can't help but focus all your attention on her. Yes she glows/jumps off the screen, actually to the detriment of the film. She's very much a Jungian archetype- Venus in the flesh.

I don't see Marilyn's crazy charisma or utterly dumb fangurl notion everyone on screen disappeared around her - when she was paired with actually charismatic actors and actresses, she did not have her so-called "great charisma."

I mean, her leading men were weak boys like Tom Ewell, Don Murray and Donald O'Connor or boring drips like Yves Montand and Joseph Cotten (though both were skilled actors). The only real leading men she got were Mitchum and Gable, and both did not "disappear" on screen when she was there. And she barely registers in Some Like It Hot beyond her jiggling around - Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis and Joe E. Brown carried that film.

Whenever she was opposite an actress with a stronger presence - Bette Davis, Barbara Stanwyck, Lauren Bacall, Jane Russell (who I think is the reason Gentlemen is watchable today, her snarky maneater character still plays well), the same thing happened. After she became superstar MARILYN MONROE, she didn't do any movies with women who have strong charisma. In fact, she begged the director to make Hope Lange dye her hair darker, so not to steal attention from her.

You focus your attention on her in All About Eve because she's dressed in all white and is pretty much in the center of the frame for the brief time she's there. Christ, why people make this five minute scene out to be anything in a movie where Bette Davis gives one of the greatest ever screen performances is beyond me.

*the director of BUS STOP, goddamn it.

Oh for chrissakes. They were both movie stars. Movie stars are movie stars because they have a singular presence. Their presences were different...that's all.

Sorry, but Ava didn't age well. She looks bad in Night of the Iguana and worse in that sweats outfit.

Do you think Marilyn would have aged better, r59?

Ava Gardner's true screen rival was Lauren Bacall, not Monroe - a feline femme fatale who could kick someone's ass and still look glamorous. And Ava was arguably the better actress, but Bacall had a style and a presence that Ava did not have and never seemed to cultivate.

This was true when they were younger and stayed true throughout their careers. Compare Bacall in Murder on the Orient Express and Ava in Earthquake. Different films, yes, of course - but think about swapping the actresses. It wouldn't work.

R56 This is a perfect comment. You’ve explained/revealed the secret of Monroe’s “charisma”much better than I could.

R59 I don't think that matters, because MM died. We'll never know. Maybe MM is an impossible comparison because she died so young.

she should have been Mrs Robinson

My absolute favorite pic of Ava. Gorgeous, incredibly sexy woman.

So young...

I LOVE that such a strong woman came out of North Carolina! RIP Ava. Her museum is celebrating her 100 year birthday this October.

R60, Gardner was only 4 years older than Monroe in 1962 when she made Night of the Iguana.

And R35, Gardner's pneumonia and lung scarring were a direct result of her ciggie habit.

R56, so much jealousy in show business.

[quote]Were her and Lana Turner really lovers?

Could have been, but I take the Ava-Lena rumors much more seriously. Lena even said her gay husband served as bartender when Ava came over - he was the "help," she and Ava were the "party."

I watched Niagara last month for the first time in decades - when I last watched it the tv print was probably faded and the tv was the old fashioned kind. So when I saw the bluray image of Marilyn's first appearance, my jaw dropped she truly looked luminescent. The Henry Hathaway-directed film was just terrific too. Look for it in the event it is on TCM.

Lena, who bitched about EVERYBODY- she even gave Judy Garland a difficult time on her Judy's then-new tv show- endlessly praised Ava Gardner. Ava even took the Julie role Lena coveted, but Lena adored her.

[quote]Ava even took the Julie role Lena coveted

Wasn't Judy up for the role?

Because she was part black and Hollywood is racist.

It still is.

As the daughter of dirt poor Southern sharecroppers (apparently she didn’t even have electricity or running water growing up) she was probably of mixed race descent, but more likely Melungeon - a tri-racial mix specific to the area she grew up in.

R72, Lena was never up for Show Boat, or the role eventually played by Ava Gardner. The story was made up for her 1981 one woman Broadway show. Lena gave Judy a hard time? Booze soaked Judy couldn't make it to rehearsals for her TV show, and rehearsing obsessed stick up the ass Lena was not pleased. She had every right to bitch.

Lena's sob story - that she never got roles when she was at MGM, and that no one but Ava would speak to her - is bullshit too. Lots of in front and behind the camera MGM people were friends with her, even DL fave Gene Kelly. Lena later only went on and on about Ava because of the strong feelings she had for her, that part is most definitely true.

It's unlikely Ava was mixed race based on her family tree which is available on multiple genealogy sites. There are some Italian names there, however, some generations back.

Similarly I've seen recent claims that Marilyn was Latina because her mother wss born in Mexico. Utter nonsense. Ethnicity is in the blood not the locale.

R56 No, when it is said that people around Marilyn desappeared it includes Bette Davis, Barbara Stanwyck, Lauren Bacall, Jane Russell .

In MM movies all you see is Marilyn, they are called HER movies.

Think of Gentlemen prefer blonds, despite the presence of Jane Russel ( at the time the biggest start and a sex simbol) we can only see Marilyn , her dresses ( we remember them all- we can't say the same for Jane Russel) her singing and her comedy- even her dialogues, all memorable. JR desappeared.

Same for How to Marry a millionare, poor Lauren Bacall seems so conservative and unsexy near MM, despite the fact that the whole movie was made to make LB shine, the one that shines is MM.

I had to google Barbara Stanwyck to remember in which movie she was with MM.

Marilyn is not a DL fave and this is telling because the gays have good taste and style. Our divas have substance. It's the frauen and hetero guys who adore Monroe.

R78 I’m even going to specifically Oh Dear! you, your entire post is a huge OH DEAR!

Look at the medley Judy and Lena did together. It is readily available on YouTube and Lena NEVER looks at Judy despite Judy working hard to make a connection. It was an early episode and Judy wasn't drinking (as much) then.

I adore Ava, and I adore that "I don't give a shit, honey" vibe she gave off. I mean, she knocked out Howard Hughes' teeth with an ashtray!

I also adore Marilyn, who did not, NOT give off that vibe at all. She cared too much, which made her such a mess. But heavenly.

Love Ava Gardner. But my favorite Movie Stars are Joan Crawford Bette Davis Barbra Stanwyck Katherine Hepburn & Rosalind Russell etc.

I always thought Ava was mixed with something. She looked like she was Hispanic or something. She never looked like a WASP to me. Her look was always somewhat exotic in my opinion.

Never knew about the group at R75.

She was a punching bag. Just ask George C. Scott. She cavorted with fascists. Just ask Franco. She didn’t take acting seriously. Just ask Louis B. Mayer. She didn’t have a gay following. Just ask Frank Sinatra.

"She was just as sexy"

She was 100 times more beautiful than Marilyn when she was young. As far as I know, she didn’t have plastic surgery like Marilyn did. Or maybe when she fell off that horse and was disfigured? Ava was a real natural beauty. Alcohol made her age prematurely.

Yes.

I do not know why there is a person above who fantasizes about Ava’s ethnic origins and who invents her a life with ancestors from I don't know where.

And for the record, the Italians are Europeans. They are white. So, there is no mixed race between whites. Jeez, the abysmal stupidity of the Americans is well established.

^^ r88. That was my fault for omitting "not" in that sentence as in not mixed race. My apologies.

It was and it is my point that Ava was not mixed rave nor was Marilyn Latina.

Cleopatra wasn't black, BTW.

R81, in the 1960s, Lena didn't look directly at white people as per the instructions of her activist lover, Dr Jeanne Noble PhD. And don't kid yourself, Judy was drinking and medicating herself during that TV show.

R43 She had a heavy accent when she spoke French, much too heavy. But she was an interesting person who preferred European cinema to Hollywood.

So what if she had a heavy accent? She was Mexican She had an accent when she spoke Italian and English as well.

Maria Felix preferred Europe to the USA for political and cultural reasons.

Ava was above all a fiercely free and truly independent woman. She would never have been able to live like Marilyn. She traveled, she met many artists from different backgrounds, she had many lovers but her heart belonged to Sinatra. These two had two strong characters and were consumed by jealousy when they were together. When Ava had an abortion without telling Sinatra, I think it was the last straw in their love story.

R92 Calm down, I just want to point out that although she was multilingual, her accent was too heavy. She didn’t have great roles in France because of that. If you don’t like it, I don’t give a shit. I’m sick of the American touchy feely. If you can’t speak like adults, without being offended by every word, don’t comment.

Actor Omar Sharif became a close friend of Ava's, they made one film together, Mayerling 1969. He later said he could have had an affair with her, but valued her friendship more - an affair would have ruined that. I like him.

Ava couldn't act, she was beautiful -for the era, the coiffed jolie madame look, the eyebrow in the middle of the forehead are hard to watch today, and was very unpleasant IRL. It shows on screen

When Ava Gardener was a teenager, her natural unmade up beauty was unparalleled. She looked like a goddess. On the other hand, Marilyn at that age looked cute but a bit goofy. Then Ava grew up and became a woman and Marilyn grew up and became a bombshell Star. Their ambitions and personalities are so different it’s impossible to compare them, but I think Ava’s biopic would be much more entertaining. She was a wild and unconventional woman. A lot of Marilyn’s story is misery and mental fragility—yawn.

R94 I'm a Spaniard so perhaps it is you who makes assumptions. BTW I speak English, French and Italian with an accent, as well.

Don't fuck with me about Maria Felix. I know everything about the Golden Age of Hispanic Cinema.

Ava never did comedy, she couldn' even come off well in sometihing like WHAT'S MY LINE, she was a HUGE bitch, was striking looking (with a very subtle nosejob), but was never charming. She hit the wall hard and fast, and by 45 she had the face she deserved. She only appeals to lesbians now. Monroe, H.Hepburn, Kelly had a charm that still appeals to teenage girls today. Gardner is DARK. Hate that bitch

R98 Lol am I supposed to be scared of you? No because right now, you see, I'm pretty much laughing my ass hard. I don't give a fuck if you're Spaniard. I didn't ask you to tell me your life story. I don't fuck with Maria Felix, I'm was saying that she could have had better roles in France if her accent wasn't so heavy. If this continues to offend you, fuck off, bitch. Pauvre conne.

I once stated that Ava Gardner was as wild and free as raging rapids.

Pic of young Melissa Gorga, Italian American

[quote] I'm a Spaniard

MMMMM hot tempered spaniard...yummmmm, do you, by any chance, look like one of these ?

[Quote]I don't give a fuck if you're Spaniard.

Yes, indeed. Understood as you referred to me as a American, pobrecita.

[quote]When Ava Gardener was a teenager

OH FUCKING DEAR

R103 Lol you are so childish it's pathetic. The Spanish people I've been around don't have such a huge ego. They usually have more humility than you. Petite sous merde virtuelle.

R99 What? I think she came off as warm and bawdy, not at all a snotty bitch. K. Hepburn is regarded highly by no one except dykes today. Ava's beauty is very much still beloved, and her sexually liberated, and independent persona aged better. And she never had any work done. Are you the nosejob troll?

R105 Charming. You've "been around" Spaniards. You must be an expert.

R107 That's how I recognize a liar. Spain is just below France. A border separates the two countries, so yes, there are quite a few Spaniards in France, especially in Occitania. That's why you don't impress me. At all. Try again.

A subtle nosejob? Are you retarded? Ava was one of the decent amount of women back then who never had to have work done because she was naturally beautiful. - see also Hedy Lamarr. People argue Liz Taylor got a nose job, but I just don't see it - the way people's noses look change with age all the time. Makeup and lighting did the work for them. Marilyn was pretty but had to have a chin implant and a nose job before being a Hollywood star. That picture of Ava when she was signed by MGM at 19 (on a trip visiting her sister) is stunning.

When did Ava look her best?

[Quote]Spain is just below France. A border separates the two countries,

Do tell.

Vivien Leigh, Gene Tierney, Grace Kelly, Lauren Bacall, Maureen O'Hara and Ingrid Bergman were also great beauties who had no work done. You had to be naturally stunning to seriously make it back then if you were short in the talent department - which most of these ladies weren't at all.

R110 I'd argue in the early 1940s.

I do tell R111

Sometimes I muse as to how threads de-rail... and the absolutely bizarre places they go to when they do--jump the track.

R109, I wish I could find that picture

Meh r113

Just another pretty girl.

Ava was seen as a home wrecking whore .

R118 That's correct. Nancy Sinatra never forgave her

If I'm not mistaken Luis Miguel was also married, or maybe I'm confusing him with another of her lovers...

Such judgmental baboons.

She was gorgeous in The Barefoot Contessa. She really was a goddess.

[quote]R73 Wasn't Judy up for the role?

Yes. MGM had the rights and in various proposed versions over the years always earmarked that role for Garland. But by the time they got around to filming it she was no longer under contract.

NEXT!

Gardner was a completely natural rare beauty. Lots of talk about her beautiful face, but she also had a beautiful body.

[quote]R109 That picture of Ava when she was signed by MGM at 19 (on a trip visiting her sister) is stunning.

Her southern accent was so thick that the director of her NYC screen test shot it as a silent, to give her the best chance : )

Some people like cleft chins on women, some don't. Personally, I'm in the latter category.

[quote]R127 Some people like cleft chins on women, some don't. Personally, I'm in the latter category.

Something unique, or even a flaw, can make a performer stand out. A touch of asymmetry or an unexpected detail is good.

She was so beautiful that she was called "the creature". Why oh why are the today actresses all so bland and insipid compared to that extraordinary era? No more glamour but trash, no more mystery, no more real talent, no more outstanding personalities.

She be cinched, r124!

I think I read somewhere that her emerald green eyes fascinated Sinatra who also had beautiful blue eyes

R129, I often think of Bacon's comment (quoted by Poe in "Ligeia") "there can be no exquisite beauty without there being some strangeness in the proportion."

The reason Mickey Rooney got so much pussy is that he was hopped up on just as many amphetamines as your girl, Judy. Therefore, he was like the energizer bunny wielding a jack hammer in the sack.

R122 That role was written for Linda Darnell. Mankiewicz screwed her over by not even telling her she wasn't getting the part.

I don't know why it is necessary to compare them at all. Fans of art don't pitch Picasso against Dali (or whoever, I don't know shit about art). So why do movie/music fans?

When I was young I thought Mickey Rooney had Down Syndrome. That "Bill" telemovie really rubbed off on me.

16:00 mark

So beautiful she looks like an illustration

I prefer Mia Farrow

Ava didn't give two fucks about her movie career. She thought she was a lousy actress and only did it for the money. With her marriage to Sinatra in shambles, she hightailed it to Europe, cavorted with bullfighters and fell in love with gitano culture. She settled in Spain because the Franco regime ironically gave her the privacy to live a wild and carefree existence that would've generated scandalous headlines in France or Italy.

Ava never had Marylin's charisma. And that talent for comedy and self-irony that I don't recall any other female HW beauty had. And the capacity to be vulnerable etc. Stupid posters who say that she was a dumb blonde, anyone with sense of humor sees how she was making fun of that role.

Ava was extremely beautiful and had strong character and interesting life, but her roles are not all that much and she doesn't convey much on the screen. She is more a type that was loved by horny straight males, while everybody loved Marilyn.

zero talent, unmemorable films. Gene Tierney, Vivien leigh, Elizabeth Taylor, etc were equally beautiful when painted on, and brought something interresting for the mind to the screen

[quote]R141 Ava never had Marylin's charisma.

Charisma of a sort she may have had, but Marylin always brought the worst jello salads to our church picnics, as a child.

[quote]zero talent, unmemorable films. Gene Tierney, Vivien leigh, Elizabeth Taylor, etc were equally beautiful when painted on

These three had refined feminine beauty. Plus they were talented and expressive actresses that had real roles in some masterpieces. Ava was more vulgar and animalistic and as you said not really talented.

[quote]I don’t think most straight men like that. They want to be in control of their women, so Marilyn is held up and Ava is perceived as sexually aggressive and therefore threatening to their masculinity.

I think the opposite. Ava was the type of actress for straight males wet dreams. Pure sex. Marylin was beloved by women too.

Ava was just Rita 2.0, except that she couldn't dance, couldn't sing, and wasn't funny

In celebrity terms, there is something to be said for dying young and remaining forever in the public's mind at or near one's peak. Marilyn had some enduring mysteries going for her as well. If Marilyn had lived to a ripe old age, she would probably have been playing someone's mother on Knots Landing (or a lesser show of that kind) in the '80s just like Ava did.

Only sad kaweens need to put down one legend to boost another

R148 that is the very basis of that thread . OP, a question, are you a lez ?

Even Lana is more fun to watch than Ava these days, Ava couldn't even do camp

That's why OP

R118 True, because she was one.

Ava was a vulgar woman , and definately very overstimated in here, her life apparently is not interesting enough to market it in a movie or a docu serie , she's just the acessory of bigger names life( Frank Sinatra , Howard Hughes ) .

R152- I have read that the people in Spain ( Or wherever she moved to) hated her behavior and were happy to see her go when she relocated to London.

Frank dropped a boatload of cash when Ava let drop that she was writing her memoirs. Were they ever written? Anthony Lane wrote an essay about Ava that he’s read at film festivals but I don’t think it’s ever been published.

[quote]Ava was seen as a home wrecking whore

The home wrecker troll has invaded this thread too? Ava was a slut who didn't care who she slept with, but blaming her for the break up of Frank Sinatra's marriage is absurd - Frankie was whoring all over town during his marriage to Nancy Sr. Don't you idiots know that?

[quote]Ava was a vulgar woman , and definately

Definately? Oh, fucking dear.

Ava had tons of charisma. The execs at MGM watched her first screen test and one of them said, “can’t act, can’t talk, candy sing. She’s terrific.”

Can’t sing, not candy sing…my eldergay fingers 🤨🥴

R154, Ava's autobiography was published after her death. It's ghost written and only contains sanitized versions of stories we all know very well. For instance the famous incident where Sinatra "caught" her and Lana in Palm Springs, and the subsequent police report filed after the fight between Ava and Frank spilled onto the front lawn - not addressed.

Ava was a virgin when she married Mickey, and once he plucked that rose bud, it awakened the beast within. Ava couldn't get enough sex and had it often. With Frank she figured, well, if he keeps cattin' around, then I'm going to too. But Frank couldn't take it and became despondent over this woman that he could never possess.

I wish the whole "Marilyn was actually a charismatic talented genius in on the joke" shit would die, because she clearly was not to some degree, with how much she hated and wanted to change her image when she actually achieved fame. "Sense of comedy and self-irony no other HW female had", ROFL, MM fangurls are another breed. Jayne Mansfield was someone in on the joke, she came off as totally different from Marilyn.

I don't think Marilyn was above average intelligence, every single Hollywood star who was famous managed to sell their false image successfully. Nobody calls Rita Hayworth a secret genius for being able to sell herself as a Gilda-like Love Goddess when she was a fucked up bundle of neuroses. Nobody calls Doris Day a secret genius for being to sell herself as an eternal virgin when she was probably closer to Ava Gardner's personality in real life.

She was buddy-budddy with Franco FFS.

I read somewhere that Elizabeth Taylor was in awe of Ava's natural beauty--no makeup, no nothing, just standing there. Gosh, I wish I had that kind of natural beauty. Or any beauty at all.

Marilyn had a very public fight against her own limitations, she tried very hard to better herself, and she succeeded. Ava never bothered, and sobbed in her autobio that no one ever tried to help her by giving her acting lessons, except charles laughton. help yourself, bitch. "and where was howard strickling when you needed an emergency abortion,?" as K.Hepburn said -I didn't need the studio to provide for THAT. Huge whore. entitled. predatory. at 45 she looked 60 and was reduced to playing second fiddle to the likes of Catherine Deneuve

So much jealousy and anger on this thread. And yet, all of these people have been gone for decades at this point.

[quote] Ava was a virgin when she married Mickey

Sure Jan. (and Betty was a virgin when she married Bogey, Mia was a virgin when she married Frank, etc ....pure and viginal, all of them)

R139 I recall reading about Ava’s comment when Sinatra married Mia Farrow: “Ha! I always knew Frank would end up in bed with a boy.”

Ava's bio was written by Peter Evans to whom she'd recounted most of her life over a period of some months. It's a great read.

When Frank learned she'd been talking to Evans he sent her $100K to stop. So she told Evans to keep the info and publish a book after her death if he so chose.. And he did.

Her maid also wrote a good book about their years together.. The maid recounts how beloved Ava was in Spain. Quite a good bio film could be developed from this book IMO. The maid adored Ava.

It's amusing some here call Ava a whore when it was Monroe who fucked every studio exec she encountered. She was a pass-around. Not Ava.

Ava had many loyal Hollywood friends who visited her when in London. Monroe had next to no friends in the end because of her troubling behavior no doubt due to her addictions. Much like Judy.

Monroe's legacy lives on. She was a STAR and her estate still generates million$ annually to some corporate interest now. Ava's much smaller estate is still in the hands of her family.

Ava is still remembered so it's mysterious to me at least why there hasn't been a bio pic when her life was so interesting.

[quote] So much jealousy and anger on this thread.

it's so tiresome when yet another lez comes here and tries to push Gardner down our throat. She's not well likes here. Shooo

liked!

Ava's bio pic would include all the Euro glamour of Monte Carlo, La Dolce Vita, the parties in Provrnce, Gstaad, etc. So much material.

What R166 said. And everything R160 said is part of the "story," and I don't believe any of it. Ava was what she was as a young adult.

R167, that quote same from Rex Reed, who's a jerk and hated Mia Farrow, so it's suspect. Then there's that *other* quote of Ava's that even she said was bullshit.

All of these stories and quotes...75% of them fabricated by bored bitter queens (Reed), over the hill actors (Rooney), and writer who want to make these people much more interesting than they actually were.

Naw, that's just her, R131!

Ava Gardner knew Mia from when she was a regular at their beverly drive home (and banging her dad) . She was always nice to Mia. What she ACTUALLY said was "you are the child that frank and I never had"

Ava made the Frank/Mia comment to Peter Evans her biographer. He has everything on tape.

no R175 she didn't, and he doesn't, it's been around since the 60's

[quote] Why isn’t Ava Gardner held in the same esteem as Marilyn Monroe

what are Ava's top ten box office movies ?

r186 You haven't read the book. It's there. But by all means keep shitting out your thoughts all over this thread.

Red Reed made it up, R176. See his 1968 book of interviews, Do You Sleep in the Nude?

R178 I have. Accepting money from Frank to NOT publish the book is a surefire sign of credibility. That joke has been around in the press since 1966. Grow up

several of us have told you already, give it a rest

READ the book by the guy who sat next to Gardner in her home for months taping their conversations. Ava said it and she laughed about it.

R182 are you dumb ? I HAVE read that piece of shit

R182 you're a woman, there is no other possible explanation for your stupid stubborness

R142, Anita Ekberg said Elizabeth was more beautiful without makeup on than painted up.

R184 Fuck you.

ok lady, so come in here, trying to convince us that Ava Gardner is fabulous because we're supposed to love golden age divas, and when we call you out , that's your come back : Fuck you HoMo...wow

R183. No, you have not read the book. It's obvious from your insipid contributions here.

What did Ava think of Shirley MacLaine? Did she think she was funny?

[quote] What did Ava think

she didn't do that

R187 What are you doing on this thread if you don't appreciate Golden Age divas?

I appreciate TALENTED golden age divas

But you're right, I'm just being a cunt. I can only apologize and bow out in disgrace

When Lana Turner found out Ava was dating Frank Sinatra, she pulled Ava aside at some nightclub bathroom and warned her, "There isn't a woman in Hollywood who hasn't cried on his cock."

I didn't, in fact we hated each other!

' you're a woman, there is no other possible explanation for your stupid stubbornness.'

No just some elderly queen.

You can just feel the drunkness when you look at this pic. Why did people drink so much back then?

R197- It is depressing to look at the old photos of them surrounded by alcohol, knowing the damage it did to their looks, health, relationships. For so many of them alcohol took years from their life, they died early. Smoking did damage too.

What is the DL's opinion of Dakota Johnson as Ava in a biopic?

NO BIOPICS, R199. Not Ava or anyone.

She didn't hold the screen with anything except her beauty.

You could also say that of Rita(except when she was dancing) and Lana, r201. They weren't actresses, they were movie stars.

R202, but would one say that of Bacall or Monroe, actresses who have also been criticized as limited?

Possibly, r203. They were strong presences on screen. Bacall's was strong enough that she could project hers from the stage. I suppose you could even say that of Garbo. None of them ever won an Oscar. Not that that means anything, Stanwyck didn't and I think she's a fine actress.

Lana and Rita weren't great actresses, but they were more interesting to watch than Ava. She would've been boring as hell in Imitation of Life.

Janet Leigh was a movie star. She was also a pretty good actress.

[quote]but they were more interesting to watch than Ava

In your opinion, r205.

207, I admit I did like her okay in Show Boat and I think she's pretty decent in Night of the Iguana. There's a joy and vitality to her peformance in Iguana that's not present in a lot of her other, earlier work.

Venus

I liked her in BHOWANI JUNCTION and although she was miscast, in ON THE BEACH. A good director could get a good performance out of her.

R197 because they're weren't prisspots with a bootlicking Protestant work ethic

I really liked the way she took Grace Kelly down a peg or two in Mogambo.

Rita had her moments as in Gilda when she throws back her hair and says, 'Sure I'm decent.' or when she says to Glenn Ford, 'I hate you so much I could die from it.' Old style glamorous electricity.

Also Lana in The Postman Always Rings Twice. Breathtaking beauty beautifully dressed and coiffed can be the drama.

Disagree, Lana was cheap and looked it.

Ava was more beautiful than Marilyn. Marilyn was pretty, but she did have some help from the surgeon’s knife.

I think Lana looked like a prettier version of Judy Garland, who was pretty by herself. Same kind of Midwestern milkmaid look.

Lana was one of the biggest Hollywood stars in the world. Doesn't matter if she was cheap looking. People loved her and she was enough to sell tickets to fill movie palaces. I think she and Garfield smolder in Postman.

Stars who rely on their tragedies to carry them through life have always been off putting to me, like Judy Garland, after listening to her audio tapes she comes across as a really spoilt person more than anything else. Same with Marilyn.

^ Joan Crawford dialing in from the great beyond

The camera was in love with Marilyn. It only liked Ava. Marilyn had ambition as an actress. Ava was happy to work which is why I mostly recall her for "Night of the Iguana" which was a good performance. Marilyn was a victim. Ava was too self-possessed for that.

^ Louella Parsons dialing in from the great beyond

R218 I excuse Judy because she had an otherworldly talent. MM....did not.

I wonder why instead of living her life out in Spain she moved to London.

R223, some say she fled Spain because she owed the government too much in taxes. Others say she was kicked out because of her scandalous antics. In the tony neighborhood of El Viso, Ava was the town drunk, and she pissed off a lot of influential residents who demanded she leave.

Ava & Mia

I personally found Ava more beautiful than Marilyn. Her photo was picked for a reason by that movie scout. Her beauty jumped out at you.

Liz and Ava completely natural beauties. Marilyn not so much. Sorry.

Ava, Rita and Lana were sexy glamour girls. When the ageing process started and they were no longer desirable sirens who could coast on their allure, their "Movie Star" style of acting showed its/their limitations. Not A-List, but Sheree North was able to shed her Marilyn clone typecasting and become a fine character actress. Though looking back, she aged well.

Both Dirk Bogarde and Ava are beautiful in The Angel Wore Red (1960).

I had a friend who loved the soundtrack to The Naked Maja.

Do other cultures engage in the same female victim culture worship that america does? I'm guessing it's much less prevalent because other countries have had female presidents and prime ministers while the U.S. only likes passive druggie celebutante messes.

Oh do fuck off, R231.

1946 gave us two of the sultriest femme fatales of noir-- Kitty Collins and Gilda Mundson.

Ava loved her Corgis.

R138, Gardner's only 31 in that clip and even the thick pancake makeup can't hide her boozer dark circles.

Thanks R230. I can sleep tonight with that profound knowledge.

Marilyn : Still relevant today, still make cover stories. her image still sell-

Ava: Everyone forget she exists until the next Frank Sinatra bio where she will have her 3 minutes.

R237 That’s because Marilyn has been shoved down everyone’s throat since she died in 1962. She may still be relevant but it’s at the expense of other talented and beautiful Old Hollywood actresses.

Why does Marilyn get more attention than Rita Hayworth for that matter too? Her story is just as interesting and tragic, and her performance in Gilda is the definition of a star performance.

Marilyn: exploited for profit half her life and ALL of her death. It is, in fact, her death which makes her enduringly famous. Liz wins on several counts. Her apex beauty is one thing, but her life is another. Started in the business as a kid, learned the ropes by osmosis, and became Queen Hollywood Super Cunt with bigger balls than the studio heads and executives she had to deal with. Liz was far more famous than MM, and much much smarter. No one vitimized Liz. She attained a high position of power within the Hollywood movie making industry by exploiting her notoriety into even greater fame and position. She was a fuckin ball breaker! She was a fuckin tough as nails business woman who's industry was her self. Marilyn? Allowed hetself to be used and abused again and again. There is no respectability in victimhood, but her poor underdog image is what other underdogs identify with which to this day translates into profit. After having been exploited, thete would come the time when Liz would profit from her own exploitation first. Smart, smart woman.

Right, R238. Marilyn Monroe, like Elvis, James Dean, Audrey Hepburn and The Beatles, have been MARKETED to death post-mortem. If it wasn't for this marketing, Millennials wouldn't know or care who these people were.

You are writing here as if you are discussing some models or cover girls. It is not just about the legend, but Marilyn roles in films that are still watched and relevant.

Rita's image could have been/still could be marketed, R239. Up until now, it hasn't.

[quote]Ava was seen as a home wrecking whore

And so was Marilyn, although her stans like to ignore that she had a thing for spreading her legs for married men (even when she was married as well), even if they were married to a friend of hers, like when she fucked Simone Signoret's husband, Yves Montand. It was a scandal back then.

every god damned queen in a gay bar is channeling ava gardner, so I think that her memory is doing pretty well

[quote]Marilyn roles in films that are still watched and relevant.

Please explain how Monroe films are still relevant. The good ones are dated cotton candy.

Lol, No respectability in victimwood and what respectability there is in having an ex lover paying your bills the way Frank Sinatra did to ava?

R245 The whole thread is about whining that nobody remembers Ava existed ( outside of having kept company to frank sinatra for 3 minutes), but if you feel she's as relevant as Marilyn good for you.

You can smell stans a mile away. They get so pissed when someone hates their diva. I like Marilyn Monroe. But for me Ava was the greater beauty. And she wasn’t really a victim like Marilyn.

Rita maybe could have been marketed more after her death, but many of the photos of her are more dated looking than most ones of Monroe.

R249 The fact is that most people find more interesting Marilyn, and they still watch her movies.

It makes no sanse to complain that " it's because AVA wasn't a victim" i mean, Jackie O wasn't a victim too and she is remembered - like it or not but the fact is that Ava isn't as beautiful or as interesting or as charismatic as the ones whining in here think she was.

R251 Ava wasn't marketed to death after she died like Marilyn was, partially because she didn't have leeches like the Strasbergs chomping on her estate, partially because she died old and uglier, and partially and because she didn't have as digestible an image. Americana loves blonde, girlish victims, not self possessed women.

*AND PARTIALLY BECAUSE. i hate typing on an iPhone. Sigh.

R250 = brainwashed by marketing

Recognizing when something looks dated is brainwashing?

It's useless to complain with " she was marketed more" -you're using the victimhood you seemed to despise.

If Ava was so much more talented, so much more beautiful, so much more interesting, so much more charismatic- just why only 5 people in DL care about her? There is nothing wrong if you like her more than Marilyn, tastes are tastes, but you are whining and blaming everyone except the fact that probably Ava wasn't as interesting as Marilyn ( or maybe you prefer " she wasn't as marketable because nobody care in her product").

Audrey Hepburn, Joan Crawford, Liz Taylor etc- all of them died old and were not "victims"(as you put it) and they are all remembered way more than Ava that is just an Extra in Frank Sinatra life.

R241 And even James Dean and Audrey Hepburn are not as heavily marketed as they used to be. Marilyn’s reign still won’t let up tho. I like her but it’s been over 60 years of this. When can we finally give recognition towards other Old Hollywood stars?

There’s nothing wrong with being a victim. But Marilyn wasn’t the only Old Hollywood actress with a tragic life. Dorothy Dandridge anyone?

Dorothy only got that HBO movie starring Halle Berry, while Marilyn gets a movie/TV show/documentary every few years.

If it’s all about victimhood, why aren’t biopics being made about Natalie Wood? She was beautiful just like Marilyn. Endured so much abuse and pain just like Marilyn. Died in mysterious circumstances just like Marilyn.

Natalie Wood was older when she passed and never famous on the level of Marilyn Monroe even in her prime, plus her daughter runs her estate and is probably shooting down the level of marketing and biopics and shit that the Strasbergs cleared over the years. If Joe DiMaggio or Arthur Miller or one of her family members was given run of her estate she wouldn't be half as ubiquitous as she is today.

Audrey Hepburn was more marketed in the vein of a fashion icon and a historically elegant woman, not some misunderstood acting genius. I can tolerate this more than the mythmaking around MM.

I’d like a Vivien Leigh biopic too.

One night I had TCM on in the background and Rita Hayworth came on as Gilda. I dropped what I was doing and just stared in disbelief. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any classic movie star that radiates that kind of stunning , sexually predatory charisma. And her hair! It actually moves and cascades like it’s got a life of its own instead of being hairspray helmeted onto her head. I know she had a hard life, but on screen you wouldn’t know it, she’s GILDA!

R261 Natalie is a large reason West Side Story was such a hit. Her name was listed above the title on the movie poster.

R263 I wonder why more female celebrities don’t pay homage to Rita in Gilda. Her hair, her outfits, everything about her in that movie is iconic.

Rita is way more interesting than Ava indeed, she was an icon and her image is still adored, it ould be interesting a movie about her life ( but maybe she was too much of a tragic victim ? )

[quote]It's useless to complain with " she was marketed more" -you're using the victimhood you seemed to despise.

It's not victimhood, it's reality.

R267 No, the reality is that Ava is irrilevant.

I do remember Eileen Davidson doing a homage to Rita in one of the soap mags in the late 90s.

Jamie Luner has a Rita-esque quality in some of her roles like Confessions of a Sorority Girl, Savannah, and on Melrose Place. In an earlier time, she could've been a screen siren.

R267 Elvis faded quite a bit before the new movie came out.

Jessica Rabbit is a Rita homage

[quote]Natalie Wood was older when she passed

Natalie died, she drowned, she was killed. She didn't "pass."

[Quote]I wonder why more female celebrities don’t pay homage to Rita in Gilda. Her hair, her outfits, everything about her in that movie is iconic.

Rita is still referenced in Spain, in magazines, etc probably more than anything because she was hispanic. Ava is still popular in Spain, too, because of nostalgia for films made in Spain.

Ava has statues in Spain and in the park across from her last residence in London.

I think perhaps it's true that Americans are being saturated with Marilyn marketing that keeps her prominant. Her estate generates million$ every year. The corp that owns/manages her estate is savvy.

R251 you forgot to add “in MY opinion” to your post.

These women were all neurotic messes.

It is not just America R273, it is all over the world. Here on Balkans too. Every kid knows who Marylin is and Ava is known only to fimophiles and grannies.

I know a queen in Zadar who's crazy about Ava. Makes me laugh.

Is it an older queen or a queen filmophile?

Marilyn's movies aren't really remembered, when people mention Marilyn the first thing they talk about is her looks, then her drug addiction and personal tragedies, and her connection to the Kennedy's and conspiracies revolving around her death. It never really goes beyond that.

Anyway R277, bitchy queens would be into Ava cause remins of a guy in female body. While Marylin was all woman.

Ava was a huge star in the 1950s, but she was not very ambitious, nor did she court the press the way many of her attention-starved contemporaries did. She did the obligatory studio press junkets and she'd turn up at events in the arms of famous husbands and suitors, but she would usually let them do all the talking. And when it all got to be too much, she fled to Europe to live life on her own terms.

Yet despite being indifferent to her movie career, she still managed to rank #25 (Women) in AFI's list of the 50 Greatest Screen Legends.

What is this remembered shit? 90% of the people around when these actresses were stars are dead, the other 10% have lost their minds.

I meant: she reminds of a man in female body

R282 are you another ahistoric proponent? History is behind us so we should forget all notable individuals?

I always thought Beckinsale looked more like K Hepburn and Cate Blanchett more like Ava Gardner.

Funny, r284, that r282 is all over this thread with informative "bits".

All of these actresses are notable individuals, R284. Arguing that Monroe is remembered more than any of the others implies that it's by people there at the time, i.e. "I remember Marilyn, but totally forgot Ava." Totally ridiculous.

[Quote]Is it an older queen or a queen filmophile?

According to DL he's an ElderGay. In his 40s and yes, a great lover of world film history. There's some deceased Chinese actress he adores as well. Very fun guy.

[Quote]Arguing that Monroe is remembered more than any of the others implies that it's by people there at the time,

No, it does not.

Ava knew that her beauty was her ticket and that MGM was using her. They tried not to give her roles that challenged her as an actress. I guess that she grew weary of it all eventually…

PS did Lena Horne hit on Ava I wonder? Supposedly Lena preferred the ladies and she and Ava were great friends.

Ava is interesting for her individual character. In an era when a woman was defined by her man, she would not be tamed by any man. I don't claim to know the details of the thing with GC Scott. Nevertheless, it truly appears that her freedom was more important to her than anything. I'm impressed that she nearly killed Howard Hughes with a paper weight for trying to rough her up. She was wild and free.

R288 Never mind the DLers, they are from inhuman America. Here men proclaimed themselves to be young still in their 50s. Though Zadar, not the friendliest place for a queen.

When Scott got abusive towards Gardner, someone tipped off Frank Sinatra. Frank supposedly had his goons give Scott a serious beat down. He left Ava alone after that.

"She was my favorite beauty. Never was there a neck like that neck on Ava Gardner." - Sharon Stone

Has there been a thread on this special before? I remember being enraptured watching it when it aired on CBS in 1999.

(Ava's segment starts at 6:32)

Sharon Stone is so annoying.

Frank Sinatra Jr. was involved with the dedication of a SC highway marker for Ava in 2015. He said he and his siblings loved her.

Both Marilyn and Ava started out more as models than actresses. Their respective studios assigned them to uncredited pretty girl walk-on parts and sent them out on cheesecake promotionals for their sponsors. After graduating to leading lady status, Marilyn yearned for more and went to New York to study with Strasberg, and renegotiated a new contract with Fox that gave her more control of her movie roles and pick of director and leading men, etc. Ava, on the other hand, couldn't be bothered and left Hollywood rather than be swallowed up by it. Years later, when asked to assess her movie career, Ava commented, "Had I really cared, I could have been really good, but I didn't."

If Marilyn is better remembered than Ava, then that's the way it was meant to be. Marilyn fought for her place in the Hollywood pantheon and paid the consequences.

I find it funny when people frame MM’s casting couch, plastic surgery, and nude photographs (none of which Ava did) as “hard work.” She was ambitious and wanted stardom, not to be a skilled actress - similarly to Joan Crawford, but Joan wasn’t as pretentious or self victimizing. She started going to the Actors Studio because in the mid-50s that was where the stars were coming from, it was what was en Vogue.

R291, you're way behind on that subject.

[quote]R272 Natalie died, she drowned, she was killed.

No one knows for a fact she was killed. They do know she was drunk off her ass.

Water killed her, R301.

You can market the hell out of someone, but if they don’t have underlying ineffable “it” factor, that ain’t gonna happen.

For whatever inexplicable reason, Marilyn has that it factor; a star since 1952 and still a star today.

R39 The Spaniards created a bronze statue to Ava.

No one would do the same to that Lana Turner.

Lana was a coarse bitch.

Madonna looks a lot like Ava

No r306 I don’t think that she does…not at all.

R306, Yes, the resemblance is uncanny.

Madonna looks like Ava’s VOMIT!

Ava Gardner advised Sophia Loren in 1977—

[quote] Always shoot your close-ups first thing in the morning, honey, 'cause your looks ain't gonna hold out all day.

299, are you goddamn kidding? This was a woman who sat in the back of an acting class as an observer for nearly a year. A woman who hired Paula fucking Strasberg to be her personal on set acting coach for 6+ years. What about the dream she had where Lee opened up her head and found sawdust ("He thought there would be so much more.")? Watch the press conference she did after Miller announced their engagement (Marilyn: Well, Mr. Miller is a playwright, and I think he'd like me to be a good actress, too.) or Miller talking to Charlie Rose years after her death ("She wanted to be good.") I think Marilyn's acting aspirations were a little bit more than following a trend.

Yes, R311, who the heck's Theseus anyway?

R311, If she was ever serious about acting, she would have stopped using her looks as a crutch, in her final years she was still taking off her clothes not wanting to be upstaged by Elizabeth Taylor.

R313, I have no doubt that Marilyn wanted to be taken seriously as an actress. But like a lot of celebrities, she was vain and addicted to fame and adulation, and when she saw her popularity slipping and her place in the headlines being usurped by Liz and Dick, ego kicked in and she resorted to the same bag of tricks that first made her famous.

R92/R98, you’re a boring white European, not a Latino.