New Paul Newman/Joanne Woodward doc…

SIX hours? They're not that interesting.

I've always been fascinated by Paul Newman. I don't generally find actors all that interesting (like I do writers, painters and musicians) and I'm not attracted to him. So that isn't it.

He's just infinitely to me. I can't wait to watch.

But, yeah, six hours seems like too much. I'm all set to say, "I've had sufficient" after hour two.

infinitely *interesting* to me...

Ernest Hemingway got six hours.

Paul Newman was pretty fucking perfect looking.

[quote] Paul Newman was pretty fucking

Never showed peen.

Never committed adultery.

Joanne Woodward broke up his marriage and is responsible for the suicide of Paul's son Scott Newman

other women like Camilla Parker-Boweles & Angelina Jolie followed in Joanne footsteps, by breaking up marriages. In short being a home-wrecker

The title doesn't make sense. Last?

Will there be cock sucking?

R6 "Never committed adultery. "

Not with women.

R10 Oh!

? ?

He wasn't really that butch.

I don't think we'll ever know if he was truly bisexual or just straight and gay-friendly. If he slept with men for parts, he would not be the only one.

Is it because Woodward is still above ground that no mention of his numerous Bricks and pricks is allowed?

R14 it reminds me of that Polish ballet dancer Vaslav Nijinsky. He was infamously bisexual, worked as a prostitute like many ballet dancers did, incorporated homosexual subtext to his choreography and had a passionate relationship with an older man before marrying his wife and having his infamous schizophrenic breakdown and death. His diaries were released and his wife ommitted any reference to his bisexuality including his long passages about how his heart was broken by his male lover. After his wife died, an unedited version of his diaries were released and those passages were restored.

[quote] those passages were restored

I assume they're the ones I read but they weren't terribly explicit or titillating.

R7 He divorced his first wife while he was away working in Hollywood. He and his first wife had a minor son who seemed to have been affected negatively by the divorce. His kid tried to emulate the father by trying to be an actor but didn't have the chops nor the looks to make it. I look forward to watching the documentary because I've always thought Paul Newman as a huge asshole.

He’s an asshole because he got a divorce? Had an affair? Are you a Midwestern housewife?

Episode 3 - The Secret Affairs of Paul Newman

But in all honesty, that first wife was a real bow-wow.

Joanne Woodward was "dating" Gore Vidal when she met Newman. They became a life long ménage a trois.

[quote] Never showed peen.

Never showed butt.

Unacceptable nowdays

Bullshit R7. He went to the same private school as I did. He was a big druggie. And he didn't commit suicide, it was an accident with Xanax and alcohol. He didn't leave a note. Paul Newman was trying desperately to get him off drugs. You are just speculating.

Wonder if it will cover Joanne's alleged affairs with that dancer and Dylan McDermott?

this seems pretty much inspired by the “listen to me marlon” documentary from 2015, except with the addition of actors such as clooney and linney adding their voices to the mix. I’m not sure how interesting this will turn out to be given that they clearly approached hawke because he is quite vocal in his fanboying of Newman- hardly the go to guy for something honest and impartial. I’ll probably watch because I love looking at Newman on film but I have my concerns about how interesting and candid it will actually be.

I’ll never forgive Roddy McDowell for going to his grave and not leaving a tell-all about what he knew. I bet he knew Newman’s favorite position, like he knew everything about everyone in Hollywood.

Joanne had her same sex affairs as well...

Joanne Woodward is hardly a “movie star” much less the “last”, what’s next an AFI Lifetime Achievement award for Rita Wilson?

She always struck me as a lesbian.

[quote] He divorced his first wife while he was away working in Hollywood.

Correction - He divorced his first wife while he was screwing around with Joanne Woodward

[quote] He’s an asshole because he got a divorce? Had an affair? Are you a Midwestern housewife?

Do you feel the same about Prince Charles?

This looks horrible. “Director” Ethan Hawke screaming and seemingly coked to the gills, pandemic Zoom interviews, George Clooney narrating, a Lana DelRey song over the trailer, my god just play old footage and interviews with a Bryan Cranston or equivalent narration and keep it to an hour & a half. This is excessive, masturabatory Hollywood junk.

[quote] He (Scott Newman) was a big druggie.

and he only turned to drugs to deal with the pain of Joanne Woodward breaking up his parents marriage

How Joanne can sleep at night knowing she caused his death, tells me she must be made of stone.

Big dyke, didn’t even suck multiple cocks per day.

Joanne can sleep fine these days, r32. She doesn't remember ANYTHING anymore...

I live in CT, and used to run into Paul Newman, Joanne Woodward, and other stars at fundraising events I would have to attend for work. Then I ran into them at my dentist office when we were all waiting for appointments. They were good people, not snobby. They were genuine, and really seemed to care about people.

I didn’t break up Paul’s marriage. It was Eve Black.

Joanne not a movie star?! She has an Oscar.

^ She’s the oldest living Academy Award-winning best actress. She’s also been living with dementia since 2007.

CBS Sunday Morning segment.

[quote]Paul Newman was pretty fucking perfect looking.

Yes, for a 5'6" shrimp.

I’ve always found Joanne so boring as an actress. Anybody could have played her well-known roles, and there are a lot of better actresses in her age range - I’d rather watch anything from Anne Bancroft, Patricia Neal, Shirley MacLaine, Gena Rowlands, Cloris Leachman, Geraldine Page or even a less technically skilled Lauren Bacall / Audrey Hepburn / Liz Taylor performance over drying paint Joanne. She’s a lot like Lee Remick, except Lee didn’t have a Newman-Woodwardesque hype train behind her.

Paul Newman was seen as the inheritor of James Dean’s career following Dean’s death, but he was a lot more talented than Dean and a great movie star.

This seems like it’s going to be one of those Fosse/Verdon type things, to revise history and make the (comparatively) neglected female half of a famous creative partnership/marriage much more important and acclaimed than she actually was. There was a very brief window of time when Joanne was seen as the prestige one of the duo - from her Oscar win until Newman’s Oscar nomination for The Hustler.

R41, Shirley MacLaine???? Hepburn? Bacall?

OY.

I saw the trailer and I saw an interview with the film's director Ethan Hawke and now I've seen enough

R42 They're all much more watchable (and MacLaine more talented) than the DREARY Woodward. Made much better movies too - what classic film was Joanne ever in on the level of The Apartment, Roman Holiday, or To Have And Have Not?

Shirley MacLaine's pretentious past lives horseshit obliterates ANY AND ALL potentially watchable crap she ever put on film. Look it up.

Ethan Hawke discusses documentary on CBS Sunday Morning:

Joanne herself says in the documentary "Why are all the parts going to Shirley Maclaine"

My husband knew the Newmans personally and used to hang out with them. He has a few fun stories that I have posted already. He doesn't believe any of the stories of of them being into kinky sex or even being bi. They were wonderful people, it was obvious they were in love and devoted to each other.

[quote] They were wonderful people

But Joanne was a home-wrecker, who broke up a marriage and trapped Newman into marrying her when she got knocked up

How can you say that is "wonderful"?

Joanne's performances in her early films, like The 3 Faces of Eve, No Down Payment, A Kiss Before Dying and The Long Hot Summer are stunning and original. There was no one quite like her back then. But something happened to her by the late 60s and she became extremely dull. Maybe the one good exception was Rachel, Rachel.

[quote]But something happened to her by the late 60s and she became extremely dull.

I thought she acted *small* but you're right, r50, her performances could be under-powered. I remember liking her in They Might Be Giants.

[quote]. But Joanne was a home-wrecker...

… with a pudding face. She didn't deserve him!

TMBG

R36 I beg to differ!

Woodward was name best actress by the New York Film Critics Circle for Rachel, Rachel '68, Summer Wishes Winter Dreams '73 & Mr and Mrs Bridge '90

R54, Eva Marie Saint won her Oscar for best supporting actress, not in the lead actress category.

Always loved Joanne. She’s the best thing in FROM THE TERRACE. Her and Myrna Loy.

R47 isn’t she rumoured to have turned down the MacLaine part in “some came running”…

Anybody but Clooney.

R27, we’re trying.

R45, you need to watch Shirley MacLaine in Some Came Running and then shut up.

Six hours, though. Six hours. Are they trying to get ahead of some scandal, or is Joanne going to die soon?

Her performance in Three Faces of Eve left a big impression on an entire generation of film goers who revered her as an acting talent for decades after.

[quote]Joanne herself says in the documentary "Why are all the parts going to Shirley Maclaine"

Because Joanne took care of her children, she didn't leave her daughter with strangers and her perv ex-husband in Japan like Shirley did.

Joanne made the conscious decision to not put her career first, she shouldn’t have been annoyed Shirley is getting parts over her…is this perhaps some kind of snobbery over Shirl not being an Actors Studio acolyte and being chosen over Grand Method Goddess Joanne?

R45 I don’t care about actors personal lives or beliefs. Shirley being a narcissistic kook is probably WHY she became an actress - have you met one?

[quote]Joanne made the conscious decision to not put her career first

That's why her daughters not only didn't write a mommie dearest tell-all about their parents, they worked with Ethan Hawk on this sanitized documentary.

R67 Exactly, you can’t have it both ways. BTW, I thought Steve Parker came off as much, much worse in Sachi’s tell-all. Shirley just seems like a standard neglectful and distant parent, don’t know why she got such an outpouring of hate on here. I assume most in Hollywood were like her.

r67, have you seen the documentary? How do you know it's sanitized?

Which one of them made the pasta sauce? Who approved the ethnic slurred marketing?

On "CBS Sunday Morning" yesterday, their daughter spoke of Joanne's dementia. As Paul was dying she held his feet in her hands. He died soon after. Joanne's Wikipedia makes no reference to her dementia, only that she still lives in Westport, Connecticut.

[quote] yesterday, their daughter spoke of Joanne's dementia

That is what happens when you break-up a marriage. It is called Karma

Fifteen years seems to be the outer limits of living with dementia.

And they call Baz excessive.

No personal contact with the Newmans but back in the day, they did a lot for Kenyon College in Ohio and everyone who encountered them gushed over how nice they were (and that wasn't always the case for the random famous person that sent their kids to Kenyon). It's fascinating that they made their marriage work since they were both talented actors & she eventually sidetracked her career to raise kids. Recent high profile married actors indicates that the two big egos in a relationship can be recipe for disaster, yet they made it work to the end.

You know that song from Frozen, r72?

Well, r75, Joanne didn't have a big ego. She made her own Oscar gown.

Newman pasta sauce sucks. Only use the salad dressing.

Btw, Joanne was not involved in any of that shit. Paul's business partner A. E. Hotchner was.

Who’s the gay standing next to Duke Wayne in R77’s link?

Love her gown.

[quote]Well, [R75], Joanne didn't have a big ego. She made her own Oscar gown.

Maybe not a big ego in the "Jo-Lo" sense, but I can't imagine you're able to become an oscar winning actress in Hollywood without a considerable amount of pluck, self-confidence & ambition. Those characters don't go away just because you get married to someone equally ambitious

Woodward was good in a showy role in The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds (1972) which was directed by her husband and for which she won Best Actress at the Canne Film Festival

I loved her performance in that in 1973, R82. But when I saw it again decades later, I was very disturbed by how the elderly woman boarder was treated - author/Newman's fault.

I actually thought Woodward was very disappointing in GAMMA RAYS, in what should have been a balls to the walls performance. She was too muted for me and the film was stolen by the Newman's daughter Nell.

Thank you, r84. She really was an underwhelming Betty the loon.

Paul had many many affairs with women, one well documented with a (female) flight attendant during the shooting of Butch Cassidy

He seems he was just very gay-friendly. Likely dabbled when young but settled into heterosexuality. Wasn't a true bisexual like Marlon Brando. James Dean was flirting with everyone in screen tests.

Paul also had an affair with journalist Nancy Bacon.

[quote] Her performance in Three Faces of Eve left a big impression on an entire generation of film goers who revered her as an acting talent for decades after.

I've spoken to an elderly psychiatrist who said this movie affected the profession for decades after. They said it coined a new word 'Schizophrenic'.

But I can't figure why "Eve's three faces" was special when Lizzie had three faces the year before.

Interestingly R83 that the old lady border doesn't utter a single word in the film, and btw how did you feel about the way Betty the Loon treated her daughters?

R89

Both Lizzie and Eve were released in 1957.

The NY Times 4-5-1957 said of Lizzie '"It is a foolish and generally tedious film"

R27 Woodward is hardly Rita Wilson. Joanne won an Oscar and two Emmys even before Paul’s first Oscar win. I think the title is more out of respect than anything else. Of course Newman was more the movie star and Woodward the actress in their marriage. Until Newman started getting more respect as an actor as he got older. Woodward herself would probably balk at being labeled a movie star. She just didn’t care for that and liked her character parts.

R27 I would think Rita Wilson would more likely get the AA Lifetime Achievement Award for putting up with that drunk of a husband

R86, that was a writer, not a "flight attendant."

She's not very compelling...

R95 a role originally intended for Monroe

R95 Having the pudding-faced Joanne Woodward playing a stripper is equally as unappetising as that four-foot-high skinny brat Natalie Wood trying to play one.

After 20 long years on the DL, FINALLY I know who the "Joanne Woodward is a Homewrecker" Troll is! I saw a clip of an interview with his daughter Stephanie from his first marriage, a bitter old lady, who said her life was ruined because Paul dumped her Ma when she was a child. Hey Steph, talk about holding a grudge!

They were both great in Mr. and Mrs. Bridge for Merchant/Ivory.

R99 It would have been more impressive if Joanne played Mr. and Paul played Mrs.

Joanne got serious into ballet in the 1970s to get fit and therefore wanted to do The Turning Point. I guess thus her comment about Shirley getting all the roles.

LOL, R98, I agree!

Now get to work on the "pudding-faced Joanne Woodward" troll. I assume it's a jealous Newman-loving boy who blames Joanne for making the world believe Paul was straight...but...I could be wrong.

Joanne was pudding faced. She was passably attractive.

Joanne was beautiful, very attractive, but Paul was an adonis.

I think Joanne was beautiful too. But she aged pretty rapidly in the 60s.

Huh, I don't think Joanne aged badly at all. IIRC she looked classy and elegant in the last public photos of her.

She was a handsome woman. Never beautiful or even pretty. Paul was wayyyyyyyyy out of her league, but who knows, she probably had a magic pussy.

[quote] Paul was an adonis.

Paul may have played that Jewish terrorist in 'Exodus' but he never played against type or did character-acting.

Joanne acquired some baby weight she never lost. I think she looks fine for her age, and I like that she didn't try to hold on to her youth - that's why she was a believable actress.

R49 aka the Joanne Woodward is a Homewrecker Troll - as Newman and Woodward got married on January 29, 1958 and their first kid Nell was born on April 8, 1959 either Nell is an elephant or Joanne got pregnant several months after they got married.

However, the fug first wife? That was obviously a shotgun wedding as even Newman as a poor man wouldn't have married such a loser unless he was forced to.

R49 You can't break up a home that isn't already broken

Thank you, Liz Taylor @ r171.

I never knew Newman had to drop out of Yale because his wife kept having a shitload of kids. I suppose this was pre-birth control pills but still. She was trying to ruin his future career to drag him back to the Midwest to work in a sporting goods store.

[quote] Newman and Woodward got married on January 29, 1958 and their first kid Nell was born on April 8, 1959 either Nell is an elephant or Joanne got pregnant several months after they got married.

Do your homework - Joanne Woodward "Miscarried" that baby during their honeymoon. Nell was the SECOND child they conceived together

[quote] You can't break up a home that isn't already broken

Do you feel the same way about Charles & Camillia being together? That it wasn't Camilla fault?

R113, the Newmans were in sporting goods - Paul's father. If Paul couldn't keep it in his pants and she wouldn't/didn't know about other methods of birth control, they shouldn't have married. HE should have thought about that long before.

The first Mrs. Newman was also an aspiring actress and model, and wanted to make a go at show business as well. But when she got pregnant and had children, she put her career on hold to let Paul pursue his career. At the expense of her own.

Never dreaming that Paul would leave her for another woman - the first Mrs. Newman wanted a show business career as well.

Face it, Paul was a punk. First wife Jackie Witte, young and dumb.

Notice that Paul Newman's wives have the same initials?

So he didn’t have to redo the monogrammed belongings when the new one moved in?

They were both marvelous actors--Newman especially as he got older. THE VERDICT is unbelievably good. I'm excited for this! I like Ethan Hawke, too. He seems a good fit for this--he's always enthusiastic and passionate about his projects.

Scott was handsome as well. All the daughters are dogs. 1st and 2nd wives were not attractive. He could have had the most beautiful women, but beautiful men always go for the plain women.

Scott looks fug here

What’s Scott up to these days?

Jackie W looked like Molly Ringwald. We can conclude Paul liked being the pretty one in the relationship…

Scott was not a stunner like dad, mostly a "nice" looking kid. Considering he was drugged up most of the time it's amazing he could get a job at all.

[quote] his wife kept having a shitload of kids

An ugly expression.

They fucked like rabbits during filming of Hud and Brandie luved it.

Homewrecker troll - can you please die in a grease fire?

[quote]What’s Scott up to these days?

Just chillin'

R127 as soon as you say Camillia Parker Bowles is not a hone-wrecker as well

Dunno, not sure what a "hone-wrecker" is.

R127 the Joanne Woodward is a Homewrecker Troll has been on the DL since Blue Agave ruled the roost. I assume it's one of his daughters from his 1st marriage. And she's totally bonkers.

R126 Meh. After I was thru with him Brandie couldn't walk for a week.

R132 answering himself at R126.

Has anyone been watching? It’s entertaining enough but a bit repetitive. I don’t like the zoom aspect of the actors fanboying.

No R133, one isn't 'answering' another, they are merely adding to the train of thought.

R135 = very gullible

R135 = humane

R137 = R135

I didn’t realize Paul was such a shitty father until I watched this.

Back then fathers weren't that involved in raising their children. My mother died when we were kids and our wonderful dad took great care of us. But I remember hearing people making snide comments about him "playing Mom".

Just finished watching all 6 episodes. It was really well done and moving. Ethan Hawke did a great job putting this together.

This guy is just as hunky as Paul Newman.

And he can work with his hands!

[quote]Paul had many many affairs with women, one well documented with a (female) flight attendant during the shooting of Butch Cassidy

"People stay married because they want to, not because the doors are locked. I don't like to discuss my marriage, but I will tell you something which may sound corny but which happens to be true. I have steak at home. Why should I go out for hamburger?” -Paul Newman

[quote] I have steak at home. Why should I go out for hamburger?

You'd never hear James Dean say anything as schmaltzy as that.

[quote]This guy is just as hunky as Paul Newman.

Who are you, Stevie Wonder?

[quote]I didn’t realize Paul was such a shitty father until I watched this.

Robert Redford the same thing. He sells himself as the ultimate family man, but like his elder Newman, Redford was an absent father with a drinking problem like Paul.

R142 Paul Newman crossed with a neanderthal maybe

R146 I know he’s done a lot of good things too but it kinda ruined my image of Paul. I know alcoholism is a disease and nobody’s perfect but as someone who’s grown up with an alcoholic father, it can be living hell. Plus he seemed to really neglect his son Scott and was too wrapped up in being a movie star.

R143 In the doc Joanna says she’s a vegetarian and that she hated that quote because of how chauvinist it was.

Joanne*

R144 comments like that actually put me off him a bit. I just don’t want him to be so silly. It’s a very try -hard comment, the kind of thing George clooney might say.

R148, you're projecting. Newman ignored his daughters from the first marriage too and they didn't become overdosing drug addicts.

R152 His daughters still didn’t speak super positively of him.

Via Wikipedia:

Around this time, he confided to family friend A. E. Hotchner, "It's hell being his son, you know ... I don't have his blue eyes. I don't have his talent. I don't have his luck. I don't have anything ... that's me."

I ran into Paul and Joanne once on holiday in Italy and they both farted on my face!

Miriam, you're so short and squat, they probably though you were a bidet.

Little ditty about Paul and Joanne,

two wealth movie stars from Connecticut-land

[quote] Newman ignored his daughters from the first marriage too and they didn't become overdosing drug addicts.

Thanks to Joanne who alienated Newman from his First Family - typical a second wife (who breaks up the marriage) would do that

[quote] his guy is just as hunky as Paul Newman.

And he can work with his hands!

In the wonderful immortal words of Joan cusack in working girl “ Sometimes I sing and dance around the house in my underwear. Doesn't make me Madonna. Never will.”

R158 She didn’t alienate them from Paul lol.

Just started it. Still waiting for the tea to be spilt? Does tea get spilt??

[quote] She didn’t alienate them from Paul lol.

Where you living with the Newman's at that time?

R162 One of her step daughters said she did a good job of including them as part of their family.

[quote]other women like Camilla Parker-Boweles & Angelina Jolie followed in Joanne footsteps, by breaking up marriages. In short being a home-wrecker

What nonsense.

It’s sad Joanne reportedly has no memory of being married to Paul.

If a home can be wrecked, it needs wrecking.

R161 Tea is spilt, particularly from Paul’s first wife.

Di$ he go commando in those Brick pajamas?

[quote] What nonsense.

So you don't blame Camilla Parker Bowles for breaking up Charles & Diana?

[quote] It’s sad Joanne reportedly has no memory of being married to Paul.

First Mrs. Newman says "Karma"

The clips with the living actors are unnecessary and detract from the documentary. We don’t need to hear their effusive estimations of his acting. It’s irrelevant and embarrassing. The length of the documentary is also out of proportion to his importance.

Angelina Jolie expressed interest in voicing Joanne part

But when she heard about the "Homewrecking" aspect of the documentary, she felt it would hit too close to home, so she pulled out of the project

Apparently Paul, Joanne, James Dean, Anthony Perkins, and Gore Vidal stayed and hung out at Shirley MacLaine’s house in 1954 before they all hit it big.

R171 I actually appreciate Ethan’s passion for his subject(s).

Did Ethan blackball Uma’s participation?

Does hawke not get along with Robert Sean Leonard? Seems he could have got his participation after all they co-starred in dead poets society and Sean Leonard also starred with the Newman and Woodward in mr. & mrs. Bridge

The homewrecker troll should blame Paul not Joanne for destroying Paul's first marriage. The whole homewrecking bullshit is so stupid. People get divorced all the time, especially in Hollywood. It is amazing to see a Hollywood couple stay together for 50 years.

Does Eva Marie saint have a part in this? I’d love to hear something from her and some of their still living co-stars.

[quote] The homewrecker troll should blame Paul not Joanne for destroying Paul's first marriage

Who was the one that got knocked up PRIOR to the filming of "The Long Hot Summer"

It takes TWO to conceive a baby

Who was the one who fucked her while being married to someone else R179

R179 who was fucking a married man - in an era where that was taboo

Who knew Datalounge was a bastion of lifelong monogamy.

R181. And their friend Gore Vidal was fucking men in an era when that was taboo. Oh my.

The "Joanne Woodward is a Homewrecker" Troll has been biding her time on the DL and waiting for this for TWENTY YEARS!!!!!!! She must be so excited!

[quote] And their friend Gore Vidal was fucking men in an era when that was taboo. Oh my.

Did Gore Vidal have a partner or boyfriend back then while he was fucking all those men in that era

It is one thing to be a slut (paging Joan Crawford) - it is another thing to break-up a marriage with children

[quote] The "Joanne Woodward is a Homewrecker" Troll has been biding her time on the DL and waiting for this for TWENTY YEARS!!!!!!! She must be so excited!

You must be new here - we have been talking about Joanne and her home wrecking ways since 2001 - OVER 20 years ago

R177, the Homewrecker Troll is trying to get people riled up - and its been trying here for years. No one responds the way the troll wants, so it goes on and on like an asshole. Just ignore.

R158, on the contrary, Joanne was the normal, functional one in the family. She make up for all of Paul's shortcomings. Joanne was the one who included Paul's older children in the new family.

[quote]You must be new here - we have been talking about Joanne and her home wrecking ways since 2001 - OVER 20 years ago

WE have not. YOU have.

[quote] Joanne was the normal, functional one in the family.

That was only after she got what she wanted - being Mrs. Paul Newman. She mellowed in her later years after getting the brass ring.

[quote] WE have not. YOU have.

That is very true - because DLers continually vilify Camilla Parker Bowles for breaking up Charles & Diana

Yet Joanne did the same thing, breaking up the Newmans - yet DL gives her a pass

So who is being the hypocrite?

According to the documentary, He needed her more than she needed him.

R185. Gore Vidal had a boyfriend for over 50 years ago and, yes, he was an acknowledged slut. But that’s beside the point. The claim was that Joanne was to be condemned because it was a taboo at that time. The fact that something used to be a taboo really doesn’t have any relevance.

R189, you view things like a jealous fangurl.

R192 yet you condemn Camilla Parker Bowles

What's the difference?

Charles was the one at fault for wreaking his own marriage. He only wanted a broodmare. He never cared about Diana.

R195 so then why did Diana blame Camilla and NOT Charles?

Good lord. Diana was a homewrecker extraordinaire. Why obsess over camilla and Joanne.

Diana was nuts and a chronic adulteress. I doubt anyone on this board would have put up with her for more than six months.

You must be new here - we have been talking about Joanne and her home wrecking ways since 1956.

R196, Diana was not very bright.

I adored Diana and yes, when she died I was broken-hearted. But already back then I realized she was treading on thin ice. Dodi was an idiot. He also had a fiancee. His father fixed him up with Diana to get publicity for himself. Al Fayad was a hustler and desperate to get revenge on the Brit establishment because they refused to give him a Brit passport. Diana performed for the paparazzi on the Riviera, she was also desperate for attention. She was responsible for her own death.

R199, no one talks about or uses the term "homewrecker" except Jessie Brewer did on General Hospital in 1967.

Can we just agree that Diana, Joanne, and Camilla were all home wrecking slurs and get back to Paul?

But Paul was a homewrecking slut too.

R204. Yes. Sorry. I forgot to include him. But the request to return to topic remains.

Very few Hollywood couples survive 50 years. They were both good actors but not particularly good parents, they probably shouldn't have had kids.

Paul was a disaster who needed a patient person to give him stability. Being "Mrs Paul Newman" wasn't so hot, R189. One day you'll understand when or if you have a personal life beyond hook-ups.

The Family in the early 1970s, the big girl on the right is one of his daughters from marriage #1.

[quote] They were both good actors

He may have played that insane Jewish terrorist in 'Exodus' but he NEVER played against type or did character-acting.

[R108]: Newman did a few roles that could be considered character parts. He’s a fleeting punch-drunk drifter, more or less nursemaided by his buddy Juano Hernandez, in “Hemingway’s Adventures of a Young Man” (1962). He’s a Mexican thug in “The Outrage” (1964). He’s a funny, wacky artist in “What a Way to Go!” (1964).

Later in life, he was General Leslie Groves in “Fat Man and Little Boy” (1989, and a satiric role in “The Hudsucker Proxy” (1990), as well as playing Mr. Bridge that same year.

None of these roles were remotely handsome leading men, which certainly shows his willingness to expand his range.

As for his personal inclinations, I once met a man in San Diego who claimed he had been kept in an apartment there by Newman for 2 years. And another man who claimed, in his escort days of his youth, he was hired to fuck Paul, while Joanne watched.

(I thought this pretty farfetched, until I read an interview, in which Joanne stated that, once when they were being interviewed by a woman from a magazine like Red Book, that she and Paul, “as a joke,” confounded the poor lady with a tale that they used to hire male escorts to fuck him while she watched. Curious…)

Dear R208 I appreciated your first two paragraphs.

The last two, not so much.

R208 never saw Hud.

That's true, R211, I haven't.

Someone who I knew, who was successful in the business, told me that Newman liked young dark (usually hispanic) boys. And that he had a fling with Tom Cruise during COLOR OF MONEY, but Cruise was shattered when the end of the film was the end of the affair as far aas was concerned.

HA! Ha ha ha ^

[R210]:

Like I care?

Just watched the first episode and have to say I found all those clips of Joanne's early films quite remarkable. There really was no one like her in the 1950s. I think this doc will make a lot of people (including myself) reassess her career.

Did anyone else notice Eydie Gorme sashay by Paul and Joanne with her congratulations in that home movie footage of their wedding? But I didn't see Steve Lawrence there.

You're missing the point entirely:

This documentary is about Ethan Hawke!

Whose thirst causes him to press his dirty hair and bad teeth into the camera about every 5 minutes...

I watched first 2 episodes. It’s interesting. All the star narrators showing up on zoom distracted me at first, but the setup works.

The most fascinating stuff in on Joanne. She was quite the sex kitten. One of her kids says she wasn’t a natural mother—but not with bitterness. More about that she had a poor role model in her own mother. Also examines the dynamics between them as Paul got to be bigger star.

It’s good.

R218 I didn’t last 15 minutes. Awful.

R157, Oh yeah, films go on,

Long after the famous movie star's gone.

Oh yeah, I said films go on,

Long after the star's a studio pawn.

Just a little ditty about Paul and Joanne,

Two American kids doin' the best they can.

Paul is the cutest mystery guest ever.

"Is the male part of the duo appearing in the theater at the present time?" -- Miss Francis wants to see Paul's male part too.

Joanne was robbed of a second Oscar by that bitch Annie Wilkes

Joanne did some quite good TV films back in the 80's. I remember a movie in which she played a first time marathon runner, Art Carney played her father.

what is the connection between Ethan Hawke and the Newmans that they would want him to do this documentary?

[quote] they would want him to do this documentary?

Who is 'they'?

review in New York Times mentions Hawke took it on at the request of one of Newman and Woodward’s children.

Review: "Hawke responds to the challenge with an approach that’s both exhaustive and disarmingly casual. Profiling two icons of cool, he doesn’t try to match them. He adopts the role of enthusiastic fan and master of ceremonies.

The result, though it loses momentum across its six episodes, is charming, entertaining and, for the eyes, addictive.

We saw Pauline at the cashier paying her bill at a restaurant in Beverly Hills. The Old World restaurant Hot in leather jacket and jeans but very short.

Does “disarmingly casual” mean slovenly? Does “enthusiastic fan” mean vacuously gushing?

gore vidal had newman often, others too

ick.....ethan hawkes ciggy voice/face.

Hawkes ruins it, in it so much....

Back in the day, there were many rumors that Ethan himself was bisexual, with a preference for black men.

R223 we robbed her first.

I hope it is mentioned at one time Joanne, as a Fox contractee, was considered for Cleopatra. I'm sure of she played the part we would still be talking about it. When she made The Stripper she was the only Fox contractee still working. Everyone else had been laid off because of Cleopatra's costs.

Gore Vidal claims in Palimpsest that he made it a rule never to sleep with a guy more than once. He claimed that his long relationship was sexless and an open marriage.

Claims he had intimacy issues that made this kind of arrangement ideal. Whether you believe him is up to you. Whether he made an exception for Newman is an even mooter point. He does say he encouraged Newman to marry Woodward when Newman was dithering about it, and the way he said it made me wonder about him and Newman even though I had not yet heard DL's views on the latter.

Joanne hated living in Los Angeles where people would mass to their front lawn to get a view of Paul. She also hated the idea that Debbie Reynolds might get her hands on her daughters who wanted to be girl guides.

Well given Debbie Reynolds's record with her own daughter, that seemed like a justifiable concern.

I wish they had told us what Scott was saying to Paul Newman in that heated argument they were having on the set of the movie . That for sure would have given us some indication of what was going through Scott’s mind. Instead it just seemed same old cliche - son of divorced parents has strained relationship with father and step mom. It seems it may have been more complicated than that but we will never know. That was the most moving part of the series for me was that this relationship was never reconciled and Paul seemed to lose his spark after that.

probably said his dad was part queer....

R225 Hawke mentioned in passing that he'd been at the same school as one of Newman's daughters, I assume the youngest one Clea who contacted him.

I thought it was interesting that Joanne's father Wade Woodward when Paul asked him to marry Joanne, said "you already have 3 children who never asked to be born. If you drop them and don't take care of them, I'll personally come after you." I looked up Woodward, he was an editor at Scribner's, the most prestigious publisher in the US back then. So Joanne had quite the intellectual dad in her background.

I preferred episodes after the first one when Ethan stopped being so central. It was really somewhat unnecessary for him to get all his friends involved. It did not add anything to the documentary and often distracted. I also don’t understand why he featured his two daughters other than nepotism. They really don’t have any connection to Newman. What a way to make it about himself.

Hawke's always been something of an attention whore. You get the feeling he's pissed off he never became a movie star. Hawke and McConaughey are Linklater's two big buddies and Hawke has got to be frustrated he never got McConaughey's level of fame.

Agree with R243. I tried watching it last night and thought I clicked on the wrong show when it was Hawke and his celebrity buddies trading witticisms that had nothing to do with anything, let alone Paul Newman. I will try again and begin with episode 2.

In future it could be edited to exclude all of the appearances by Hawk and his friends. They are extraneous and detrimental.

The documentary is too long. Joanne was very talented but I hated her voice. I could never get into Paul Newman.

Also did hawke have to swear so much. I realise he’s “passionate” about the topic, but the swearing is a turn off for me. It was just so gratuitous.

R247 I agree. I wish they’d used an unknown rather than clooney, he’s too polarising.

He's on Twitter today complaining about the paps following his and Uma Thurman's kids around. Come on. Hawke was never that famous and Thurman's fame died early.

Clooney's voice is a terrible match and distracting - not at all like Newman's.

R240, you think Scott was still upset that Daddy had left Mommy? I say Paul and Scott had big issues because of Scott's drinking, doping, and unreliability.

Why was Scott drinking and doping, r252? It's because he knew he couldn't measure up to his dad.

R253, whether Paul paid attention to him or not, Scott would never have measured up unless he went into another profession, which he didn't have the balls to do. Scott Newman was lucky he wasn't drafted into Vietnam.

It astounds me the number of stars' progeny who go into show business foolishly not understanding they'll only be compared to their parents.

DL fave Gregory Harrison was in Scott’s last movie - fraternity row and about ten years after Scott’s death he took himself to rehab for drug addiction issues according to this article. In the article Susan Kendall Newman is also featured commending Harrison for being a celebrity role model. I guess he kept in touch with the Newman’s after working with Scott.

[quote]whether Paul paid attention to him or not, Scott would never have measured up unless he went into another profession

How do you know he would have measured up even then, r254...how would Scott know?

Ugh, even reading this thread I wasn’t prepared for that ten minute opening of contemporary actors in Zoom calls, what a shitty way to start a documentary on the last movie stars. That should have been an after aside post credits, not the lead in. I’m really interested if anything has been written about the transformation of documentaries over the last three or so decades. There was a time when there seemed to be clear criteria for what goes into them including no reenactments, objectivity by someone outside the friends and family circle, only primary source documents and artifacts, an attempt at being truly balanced (which isn’t to say they didn’t have a point of view) and other things that seemed to be sacrosanct or at least industry held ethics and ideals. I guess in a way documentaries went the way of news, from being about reporting facts, to placing entertainment at the center. Also, how does this compare to the Lucy/Desi one for anybody who watched both?

Is it me or were they implying that Paul might have had something to do with James Dean’s death to further his own career?

R259 No, Gore Vidal meant that if Jimmy hadn’t died, Paul wouldn’t have taken over his role in Somebody Up There Likes Me. Somebody Up There Likes Me is what made Paul’s career. That was supposed to be Jimmy’s next movie, but he died as we all know. Later in life Paul apparently expressed guilt about his success because he knew his career benefitted from Jimmy’s death.

No R250 they were saying that Paul wouldn't have had the career he had if James Dean hadn't died.

And before some people go on about how overrated Jimmy was, Paul himself said in an interview during the 70’s that he believed Jimmy would’ve surpassed him and Marlon had he lived longer and gone into the classics. So he clearly had respect for his talent.

Who'd have thought that Brooks Ashmanskas could do such a great Gore Vidal voice?

Paul and Joanne would show up at most of the Encores! opening nights. He seemed to love old-school musicals.

Eh, Dean was not very professional nor was he a particularly excellent actor. So fucking twitchy. I can’t see him pulling off something like Hud. Newman knew that you had to tamper down the Actors Studio shit sometimes.

On Dick Cavett, Joanne was dismissive of Brando.

[quote] Woodward was name best actress by the New York Film Critics Circle for Rachel, Rachel '68, Summer Wishes Winter Dreams '73 & Mr and Mrs Bridge '90

Those are probably her three best performances. She became a really great actress once she cleared forty--it's like something clicked in her brain. That's uncommon for Hollywood actresses, who often are stronger when they're younger and then become mannered as they age (like Bette Davis, Jessica Lange, Barbara Stanwyck).

Dean could have been great in SWEET BIRD.

Joanne was never mannered, that was part of her problem. No distinction.

R264 Check out Dean’s television work. It allowed him to demonstrate more range.

R265 What did she say about him?

She didn't like working with Brando in a Tennessee Williams written dud called The Fugitive Kind also with Anna Magnani, R270. I remember see the show when it was originally on TV, she was asked to compare Brando with Olivier. As for The Fugitive Kind, it's good camp, nothing more. Joanne has a really bad scenery chewing supporting role in it.

In the TV Movie Passions - Joanne Woodward plays a wife who is shocked to discover her husband has had a mistress for 8 years

This is an odd role for Joanne to take - considering her past personal history. Maybe it was therapeutic for her to get rid of her guilt for breaking up Paul Newman's marriage. Some of the dialogue Joanne has to say to the mistress is so creepy. As this is what the first Mrs. Newman would probably say to her.

Joanne being a method actress, she would have no problem finding "Sense Memory" to channel her work as the betrayed wife. All she has to do is think "How would Paul's first wife feel about this"

Anyways highlights from the movie below, where her character rips into her husband's mistress. The ultimate calling the kettle black!

[quote]Joanne was never mannered, that was part of her problem. No distinction.

"Part of her problem"?

The woman has a Best Actress Oscar and three other nominations. She has three Golden Globes, and seven other nominations.

Some "problem"!

The Fugitive Kind is Orpheus Descending, r271.

[quote] did hawke have to swear so much. I realise he’s “passionate” about the topic, but the swearing is a turn off for me.

It's inappropriate and it's wrong for this show about Hollywood Royalty.

[quote] I’m really interested if anything has been written about the transformation of documentaries over the last three or so decades.

Sensible people know, R258, that all standards have dropped. We're in the era of fake news and gossipy rubbish.

It was weird Hawke had Zoe Kazan voicing Paul's ex-wife. She said - as herself - she had never seen Joanne Woodward in a movie. Which is bizarre. Kazan's so unattractive too. I looked her up to see why she has a career and it's all due to nepotism.

Ethan has made documentaries before - on the Chelsea Hotel, Gregory Corso and Seymour Bernstein.

Did the first Mrs. Neumann die a tragic death befitting a wife or girlfriend of Ted Hughes?

R278 Did he insert himself in them as much as he does here? And those are all topics I would be interested in, but I’ve never heard anything about them. Griffen Dunne is a much better actor/documentarian, the family should have gone with him.

Apparently Jackie is still alive currently 91 years old.

She’s one of the last living people people from the Old Hollywood era. I thought it was said when one of her grandsons said in the documentary that he lost her years ago (because of Alzheimer’s) but at the same time he hasn’t become she’s still here.

I thought it was sad*

R277 Ethan also has his nepotist daughter Maya Hawke in the documentary too.

Not getting the hate. Ethan told Paul’s and Joanne’s story in such a beautiful and moving way.

Is Susan Newman dead? She seems to be the only daughter not taking part in the documentary.

I can do a six degrees of Kevin Bacon for Ethan and the Newmans. Ethan was in The Woman in the Fifth with Kristin-Scott Thomas who was in The Horse Whisperer with Redford who was with Newman in The Sting and Butch Cassidy.

[quote] Is Susan Newman dead?

She had a HOT and TORRID passionate affair with Terry Lester from the Young & the Restless

I was going to retract that, r273, but decided not to. She's a fine actress technically, but she isn't distinctive. You never see anyone doing a Joanne Woodward impression. Yes she had her Oscar win and nominations during her career, but she doesn't have any true classics on her resume. Her performances seem real...but small. I can't imagine her on stage. I sound like I'm trashing her and I don't mean to. I like her, but if I'm choosing a version of Menagerie or Sheba to watch, I'd pass over hers.

Re Susan Newman. Apparently still alive and living in California.

Damn, Newman's kids are old. I guess late 60s.

R289 people do impressions of movie star with personas, not actors. I've never seen an impression of Meryl Streep either. Actually, I've never seen an impression of Paul Newman.

Maybe Chloe Fineman can add Joanne to her repertoire, now that Kate’s gone hopefully she’ll get more screen time.

R272, you're having a lot of fun in this thread. I assume that you blame Joanne and not Paul because he's a man and probably bisexual by the DL Standards and Fantasies department?

R289, no one did a Barbara Stanwyck impression either. Or Streep impression.

Agree with you about The Glass Menagerie and Come Back, Little Sheba. The problem for me with the latter is that Joanne by then was ballet-thin and not the slovenly lump Shirley Booth was.

r291...

[quote] Actually, I've never seen an impression of Paul Newman.

He had a BIG jaw and blue eyes but no personality.

R209 has told us about some various screen appearances but he was a drop-dead handsome man with a BIG jaw and blue eyes but no personality or innate thespian intelligence.

R272 keeps blaming Joanne, but she wasn't married. It was Paul that was cheating. Women always get blamed apparently because men have no control over themselves and are helpless.

Bette Davis bemoaned how it took so long for someone to impersonate her.,

Years ago I saw some woman do a bit of a Stanwyck imitation, r293 and she nailed it. I cannot remember who it was. That was the only time I saw it done well. But I'm also talking about distinctive in other ways. Stanwyck was a much more dynamic screen presence than Joanne.

Someone upthread mentioned See How She Runs the 1978 TV movie Joanne did. Her father was played by Barnard Hughes, not Art Carney.

To the poster who said the older kids were in their 60s, Scott would have been 71 almost 72 if he had lived. He was born Sept 1950. Newman was the WW2 generation.

R300 I have very fond memories of that movie.

Scott's sister said their mother used to leave the two sisters alone with him when they were kids and she went shopping. He used to beat the sisters up. It sounded like he was always an asshole.

[quote] but she wasn't married.

That's right, she wasn't married. But Paul was, & that didn't stop Joanne from getting knocked up.

It is still all on him. R304. He is responsible for not cheating in the first place.

R305 it takes TWO to cheat

Has anyone ever seen that film Paul and Joanne did called A NEW KIND OF LOVE that looks in the clips in the doc like a Doris Day rom-com in Bizarro World? Joanne is awful in it, clearly no flair for comedy, even though, apparently, it was at her insistence that she and Paul do it together so she could do a glamorous role with gorgeous costumes, makeup and hair. Eva Gabor, Thelma Ritter and George Tobias co-star.

Yep, r307...

R307, Wasn't it originally intended for Marilyn Monroe?

If so, MM was smart to turn it down, r309.

I am a documentary whore and I turned this one off in 10 minutes.

I admired Ethan's excitement for his project though! He was bursting through the screen!

I may check it out again- it looked like it would be a boring sycophantic whitewash.

R299, Kaye Ballard used to do a Stanwyck impression in her act.

Mario Cantone does a spot on impression of Stanwyck's climactic scene in "The Thornbirds".

R311 why not just skip part one and go directly to part two.

R310, I believe the Grim Reaper made that decision for her.

R313- Ha! In think that I will do just that!

I'm sure he also cheated on Joanne. Once a cheat always a cheat. the men in that generation thought of women as less than human.

Joan Collins must be furious she was not asked to participate in the documentary.

She's always saying in interviews that Paul Newman was her favorite leading man and that "Rally 'Round the Flag, Boys!" was her favorite movie, a movie the Newmans would have liked to forget.

It is interesting to think what woodward might have done had she been able to continue as an actress uninterrupted.

I’m guessing she compared her career with MacLaine’s because they represented a similar type, the quirky looking actresses of that era. I could see Woodward in some came running after seeing her in the fugitive kind. I’m not sure I really see her in other well-known MacLaine roles, I guess she would have been fine in the children’s hour too and maybe the apartment. I wonder if, being southern, she was considered for a role in steel magnolias (the Olympia Dukakis part perhaps) she probably would have nailed that.

Woodward wasn't quirky looking, r318.

Rally...

I'm no great fan of Shirley MacLaine but she did have a certain waifish comedic flair in her 1950s films that Joanne totally lacked. Actually, Joanne had NO comedic flair whatsoever

Yeah I don't remember Joanne doing comedy, so maybe that isn't her strong suit

She has some awkward charm in They Might Be Giants, r321. But she was having to keep up with George C. Scott.

Giants...from upthread

Joanne basically sacrificed her own career, to support Paul's career

R307 - yes I agree that film is awful and Joanne looks like a drag queen in it. Comedy was not her forte - Paul was much better at it - but she could be funny in moments in straight roles.

R319 what I meant by quirky was more that she didn’t fit the template of the grace Kelly type or liz Taylor. In sound and the fury for example she has a short hairdo similar to MacLaine’s from around that time.

Joanne Woodward has always had a plain, ordinary face.

If someone flashed a series of 8x10 photos in front of me, I would hesitate in identifying her.

I don't think she regretted it, r325, did she?

Paul said that Joanne's fatal flaw was that she thought she was Marilyn Monroe. When she tried to play a Marilyn type in The Stripper she wasn't sexy. She has a stripping scene with bursting balloons.

She was in the comedy "The End" with Burt Reynolds, but she was the straight woman to all the crazy characters in that film.

Wasn't Joan Collins recently ill so maybe that's why she was no included. Joan was at Fox the same time as Joanne and she and the Newmans were friends.

I saw nothing scared recently and wondered who Carole Lombard made me think of. It turned out to be Woodward. I think Woodward was trying for a Lombard type of performance in a new kind of love.

Again I'll use the word, r327, Shirley had a more distinctive look and personality than Joanne. Joanne was pretty but she didn't have movie star looks or a movie star acting style.

Joanne was funny when she played a bitch, like in Summer Wishes Winter Dreams.

She wasn't knocked up by paul. they were married in Jan 1958 and their first kid was born in April 1959

I never saw that, r335. I'd be willing to give that one a go.

It got her an Oscar nomination. She is good in it.

What am I, chopped liver?

[quote] She wasn't knocked up by paul. they were married in Jan 1958 and their first kid was born in April 1959

The first Mrs. Newman refused to grant a divorce, until Paul told her that Joanne was pregnant. That is the only reason she granted the divorce.

However Joanne "miscarried" that child during their honeymoon

The child born in 1959 is the SECOND child Paul & Joanne conceived.

Sylvia was nominated too.

R325 That’s not very Feminist of her.

I think she admitted it was a struggle for her and Paul was generous in directing her in some films like Rachel Rachel.

I think Joanne and Shirley are different types of actors though they may have been up for the same parts. Shirley was a dancer and I'm not sure she ever studied acting., She acted instinctively. Joanne studied acting and her performances are more planned. for eg she said she always started by finding the character's shoes and Joanne can be fussy with her hands in the Actors Studio style of realism. They both seem earthy types though I agree Shirley probably has more edge and quirkiness. I like them both though not Shirley so much in musicals. She wasn't that good a dancer or singer. eg Sweet Charity.

[quote] Paul said that Joanne's fatal flaw was that she thought she was Marilyn Monroe

When did he say that? Where, R330?

[quote]Did the first Mrs. Neumann

OH FUCKING DEAR

[quote]She wasn't that good a dancer or singer. eg Sweet Charity.

Shirley popped off the screen, r344, and Joanne didn't. I am not a fan of her singing, but I don't think you can fault her dancing.

Who the hell is LaTanya Jackson, why is she always yelling and to close to the camera?

I think your claim that Joanne isn’t mannered enough and therefore can’t be imitated/remembered is just an indication of your preference for prewar actors. Very few postwar actors can be easily imitated because the objective has become to disappear into the role. Virtually all the imitable actors rose to prominence in the 30s and 40s—-Grant, Davis, Stanwyck, Hepburn, Cagney, West, etc. There are very few post war actors of whom that can be said. Alec Guinness, Meryl Streep, Albert Finney etc. Don’t really lend themselves to impersonations, but that really doesn’t say anything about their achievements as actors.

Joanne was a magnificent actress. To me she helped usher in a more realistic, natural style of acting to American cinema that you would normally find in artsy European films. Even her actors studio contemporaries like Kim Stanley, Geraldine Page, Marilyn Monroe, Jane Fonda and co were MUCH more fidgety. She wasn't afraid to employ the 'don't act, just *be*' philosophy, which I guess is why some of her performances seem small compared to her peers. Even a 'boring' role like Rachel Rachel, she underplayed it to stark effect. It's such a haunting portrait of suburban ennui and depression - the scene where she's lying on the table in the doctor's office is harrowing.

I guess the closest thing she has to a 'classic' might be Sybil, which is more of an iconic project because of Sally Field's character but still another great, nuanced performance. I think the final on-screen role for both Newman and Woodward was Empire Falls series (HBO), and in a cast of thousands (Helen Hunt, Ed Harris, Phillip Seymour Hoffman, Robin Wright, Estelle Parsons) she completely steals the show as the scheming, villainous tycoon who pulls all the strings in their small town and is hiding decades of dark secrets. Newman is fine in it but mostly coasting on his charm and looks (even as an older man).

Joanne is lifeless, not unmannered. Shirley, whatever you may think of her, has a lot of personality in her roles. I prefer that over technically "good" acting achievements, which doesn't have anything to do with "pre-war" tastes, except perhaps, film actors were not so self important before the war and Actors Studio gave them an inflated sense of ego. Being technically good does NOT equal being a great film actor. To me, great means you've given a memorable and impactful performance. Plenty of post-war actors were able to do so - Faye Dunaway gave memorable performances. Al Pacino gave memorable performances.

Considering the exact premise behind this documentary is to glamourise them as the 'last movie stars', I can't think of anything LESS glamorous than a blurry Zoom meeting with bad audio. Except for maybe the sight of Ethan Hawke squawking through his mouthful of blackened gums and janky teeth. I think a more cinematic approach would have been more suitable than that distracting circle jerk.

Also, the worst thing that post-war acting attitudes did is convince audiences that naturalism isn't just the default acting style, it's the only acting style. Anything that strays from naturalism is "hammy." Such a bullshit attitude that I think began the decline of cinema as an art form - no more room for heightened emotion except under the veil of irony or parody.

Jessica Lange, too - great film actress but no one's doing impersonations of her in night clubs.

So was he just completely genetically gifted, he doesn’t seem like he working out or doing athletics things at all, yet he’s always in remarkable shape?

R353 You can go 'big' and still be natural, just as some performances can be 'small' and still be very forced (think some of Kristen Stewart's early work). I don't think anyone is doubting that. Some of us just prefer Joanne's quieter, more realistic style than a lot of gesticulating or dynamics. I wouldn't cast her in something like Death Becomes Her or Gentlemen Prefer Blondes for example, but in roles like Summer Wishes, Mr and Mrs Bridge, Sybil, Rachel Rachel, The Glass Menagerie, I think it was the right choice.

How can’t they correct all these sound issues in post production? Did Ethan just edit it on his Apple computer?

All I ever heard growing up was Paul Newman was Jewish, yet they haven’t talked about it yet and I’m two episodes in?

I wondered about that, too, r358.

Did Ethan ask Laura L. to record her lines standing at one end of a long hallway with the microphone at the other end?

@ r53, in the clip from "They Might Be Giants" with Joanne, Rue McClanahan Alert!!! Rue McClanahan Alert!!! Rue McClanahan Alert!!! Start watching at 0:21.

I love the chapter on Paul in Fran Langella's book Dropped Names:

There are countless examples of the lengths so many oncebeautiful women go to preserve what is impossible to recapture. Great male beauties don't suffer in quite the same way, but they suffer nonetheless. There are, of course, compensations in old age: wisdom, family, good friends, achievement, wealth. But my experience of the great beauties I have known, male and female, is that each would forfeit those perks to be magnificent once more. Paul Newman's beauty was original and mesmerizing and, in my experience of him, he was master of and slave to it. I first met him when he was casting a film in which his wife, Joanne Woodward, would star and he would direct, entitled Rachel, Rachel. The year was 1967. Paul was forty-two. I was twenty nine. Twenty minutes late getting to their Upper East Side apartment from their house in Connecticut, he came through the door, dropping bags, deeply apologetic, pulling off his sunglasses, and there they were - those compelling baby blues, completely and utterly beautiful; as was the rest of him. I didn ' t get the part but I did come to know Paul, after a fashion. I doubt there was much in life that Paul was denied. To watch women in his presence was to forever put to rest the notion that men are shallow, only caring about a woman's face and body while women look for those deeper substitutes like "a sense of humor" or "kindness" (continues)

Physical beauty takes the cake with first meetings. Getting past it is another matter. And it was hard for most people to get past it with Paul. He certainly did everything he could to distract their attention; changing his looks for roles, goofing around on talk shows, dressing with no particular flair. But apart from not having much of a behind, he was male perfection. Over the years he stayed gorgeous with the help of intelligent plastic surgery and a vigorous health regimen. (continues)

He loved dirty jokes - the dirtier the better. When I knew he was coming to a show, I made sure to have at least three ready for him. And he liked to hear conquest stories. " Did you score?" was his usual question about any mentioned leading lady I'd worked with. He was a great audience, a true lover of acting and actors, and wanted, I believe, to be thought of as a great actor. He wasn't. But he gave everything he had to every role. As his movie star days faded and he turned to mostly stage and television projects, his limitations became more apparent. As indeed, they were in life. (continues)

After dirty-sexy jokes, shop talk, cars, or politics were exhausted, Paul was a pretty dull companion. Never rude or unkind, just dull. The lights would go out and he was in for the night. He had drunk enough beer or heard enough jokes and that was it. But he was so beautiful, people thought it must be their fault if he went silent or just emptily gazed at them. Apart from his many visits backstage, I was in his company perhaps only a dozen times over the years I knew him. And I was always the first to leave the scene. You knew you were with a deeply feeling man, a decent man and a man of principle, but like the statue of David, there he stood, physically perfect but emotionally vacant. There were so many arenas in which he would not play that eventually I did what I could to avoid any prolonged contact with him. Another reason I did not pursue a friendship of consequence with Paul was that I felt that to be his friend meant being many things I was not. Those being a beer-drinking, sports-loving, charity-driven, race-car-junkie acolyte. It seemed to me that, in the end, he could only go so far inside himself and could only be with people who could tolerate that limitation in him. Even when he didn't want to be, he was the center of every universe and his circle continually waltzed around him, accepting their leader on his face value, so to speak. (continues)

In 1991, I was appearing in a play at the Long Wharf Theatre in New Haven, Connecticut. It was about a raging tyrannical actor at the turn of the century named Junius Brutus Booth. Paul came to see it without Joanne or one of his usual cronies. He walked me to my car in the almost empty dark parking lot and as we strolled along he put his hand on my shoulder, then moved it to the back of my neck, squeezed it hard, and shook it. "Where does all that anger come from, Franco?" "I wouldn't know where to start," I said. "You scared me tonight up there." "Well, you know, it' s acting," I joked. "Yeah, but you can at least let it out. I can t." "What' s your anger about? " I asked. "I wouldn ' t know where to start". Paul loved the craft of acting but the burden he carried was not, in my opinion, his good looks. He had no danger. And it is essential for a great actor. Non-beauties like Jack Palance and James Cagney had it. And Paul's major rivals in his early years - Montgomery Clift, Marlon Brando, James Dean, and Steve McQueen- all had it. And all self-destructed. Paul lived to eighty-three years old within a healthy lifestyle, and I'm convinced he knew he was without greatness. (cont.)

And that very lack of danger in him may explain why, as beautiful as he was, he personally had very little sex appeal. The last time I saw him was in a small off-Broadway lobby. It was a windy, wintry night. His illness had begun. He was standing behind me. "Franco, my boy. " I turned around and looked into the baby blues I'd looked into some forty years earlier. An old man now, face thin and ravaged, a beard for his next role, fine sparse hair blown around by the wind. "Paulo, " I said, and instinctively reached up to put his hair in place, smoothing it down with my fingers and making it neat. I then moved my hands down to his cold cheeks and kissed them both. He fixed me with a look of heartbreaking tenderness and I thought for a moment he might be fighting back tears. "There. Now you look like Paul Newman, " I said. "And what man wouldn ' t want to look like Paul Newman? " It occurs to me now, as I write this, that perhaps he might have been that man.

Fantastic doc. Really enthralling.

When Joanne dies, the fact that she was Mrs. Paul Newman will appear in the first or second sentence of her obituary.

Yes, she won an Oscar, but it was for a movie that most people under the age of 50 have never seen.

R332, Joan Collins has not been ill. The Daily Mail covers her comings and goings as if she were a Kardashian.

Let's be honest, Joanne Woodward was no Helen Lawson.

Langella presumably was up for the part James Olson played in Rachel Rachel though Frank was eight years older than Olson and Joanne.

^ Meant to type 8 years younger.

The Paul comment about Joanne and Marilyn Monroe is in this book.

I was surprised. It was really excellent. Ethan Hawke did an amazing job. Love it. Was never bored in 6 hours of watching.

Ethan Hawke’s documentary is hagiographic, but it’s also canny, inventive, and revelatory. - The New Yorker.

BOTH grandsons are hot as fuck.

If Jackie is still alive she's probably biding her time to dance on Joanne's grave.

Dazzling and superb - Time.

I never much cared for Joanne in her early films. She was okay, but that voice grated a bit. She non-acting while ACTING. It's very Actors Studio. Even 3 Faces of Eve doesn't hold up for me in retrospect. Her transitions between personalities comes off really fake. (actually, though pretty much a potboiler, Eleanor Parker is much better in Lizzie - you can even see her change personalities from behind. It's a very underrated performance.) Joanne's acting jumped to another level with Rachel Rachel. She did many wonderful things after that. Summer Wishes, Winter Dreams is one of my favoirte movies. (But it's not a comedy, even though she has a few funny lines in it.) The one thing Joanne couldn't do was comedy. She's actually the opposite of Shirley Maclaine, who started out so unstudied and in the moment, and got more mannered as she got older.

Had to check, but JW did very little stage work in NYC. Considering that's how she started, you'd think she'd want to do more, especially later in life. She and Paul did an ill-fated play in the early 60s, Baby Want a Kiss, and she did CANDIDA in 1981. That's all. Maybe she was too tied up with the kids to commit to a long run. (Think she would have been a lousy Candida.)

I have watched 4 episodes so far. Is Susan not interviewed at all? She used to always be on tv and in magazines.

R378, "Jackie reportedly passed away around 1993, but since the cause or the place of her demise has never been publicly revealed, we do not have any details concerning the same either. We should mention that the 64-year-old had actually supposedly managed to become a successful full-time model at one point in her life."

R381 I think it took a lot to get her out of Westport where they lived. The main reason she skipped the 1991 Oscars when she lost to Kathy Bates was her fear of flying. Plus she produced, taught, and I believe occasionally acted at their neighborhood playhouse, as did Paul. Paul seemed to like to go where the work was. I had forgotten he received a 2003 Tony nomination. When he could’ve easily stayed in his comfort zone, he opted for the rigors of a Broadway production.

Geez. They were just actors—-not creative artists. Nor did they work in a performant field that demands the technique or intellect of classical music or ballet. Six hours seems out of proportion to their talents or importance.

R385 I enjoyed it. A bit long and Hawke could’ve used a good editor. But it did justice to their lives and work. I would argue actors ARE creative artists. A masterful performance can be talked about for decades and there have been hundreds of examples here on DL. On film or tv it’s there forever. On Broadway, an actors arsenal is up there for the world to see where they’re basically up there naked (in most cases not literally lol) which requires technique and intellect.

Meryl Streep has had the career she has had because of a combination or luck and a supportive husband

Luck because many of her films have been filmed in NYC, so she was able to still be at home.

When she had to travel to other countries to film (Australia, Africa, England, Poland) her husband & kids went with her and he looked after the kids. Or the kids stayed in NYC and her husband was the care-giver. I'm sure they had help, but you always want one parent around.

Joanne didn't have that, She sacrificed her career to support Paul's. If films roles came her way, and she had to travel she couldn't count on Paul staying home to take care of the kids. Doing Broadway, forget it. Who would be home at night to tuck the kids in bed,

I'm actually surprised realizing how much Joanne did work over the years. It seems to me her major absences were in the 60s when she was probably less castable anyway, too old for Hollywood leading ladies and too young for character roles.

R384, The main reason she skipped the 1991 Oscars when she lost to Kathy Bates was her knowing she wasn't going to win.

Fear of flying never kept her from attending previously when nominated in 1969 and 1974.

[quote] Fear of flying never kept her from attending previously when nominated in 1969

She was in the audience when nominated in 1969 - Paul was the one that was absent

After watching the entire series, what did I learn?

Paul was a drunk, Joanne was a homewrecker, Paul was a lousy father, Joanne harbored second thoughts about having had children, their marriage was not the fairy tale existence they liked to project and Joanne came close to ending their union due to Paul's excessive drinking.

[quote] Fear of flying never kept her from attending previously when nominated in 1969 and 1974.

Just checked, Joanne was also in the audience in 1974 - so Joanne showed up the three times she was nominated, but didn't show up in 1990. The last time she was nominated.

I think it was Paul that didn't like flying, because he wasn't by her side in either 1969 or 1974 - she had to go to the Oscars by herself!

Whoops Paul was with Joanne at the 1974 Oscars - my mistake

Here in 1974 both Joanne Woodward & Ellen Burstyn seemed shocked Glenda Jackson won for "Touch of Class"

btw Barbra Striesand was at the ceremonies, she declined to sit in the audience and was backstage. Once they called Jackson's name, Barbra promptly left via the back door.

R392, Paul and Joanne were sitting next to each other at the 1969 Oscars, genius.

Genius read R393

R396, Are you drunk or high or both?

Here they are at the 1969 Oscars at 7:40.

[quote] Here they are at the 1969 Oscars at 7:40.

Unlike you I haven't timecoded every second of every three-hour Oscar telecast the past 89 years.

Has this premiered yet?

I’m almost done with the first part. I don’t think either Newman or Woodward were interesting to talented enough to warrant six hours. Actors need to understand they are not important. Looking at you, Ethan Hawke.

Their story could easily have been told in two hours, not six.

r34, Newman opted for the rigors of a Broadway production"? His OUR TOWN lasted 15 previews and 59 performances. Hardly rigorous.

Joanne also did some directing for stage and TV. For stage she had a love of Clifford Odets and she also did a documentary on the Group Theatre which was filmed over many years and displayed her changing hairstyles over time.

[quote]I’m guessing she compared her career with MacLaine’s because they represented a similar type, the quirky looking actresses of that era

No, R318. They were the same AGE group, that's why.

So weird that people like Woodward and Newman have children. What does it accomplish? It detracts from the careers, they seem to have little paternal instinct, and the children are unhappy.

I think Joanne opposite Anne Bancroft in The Turning Point would have worked. Bancroft was more a contemporary of Joanne's than MacLaine.

I’m happy the series didn’t make me resent Newman. I was fearful it would put me off him. I actually do feel sad about the situation with his son. In some respects it was useful to tell us not to believe all the hype about famous people and of course the people these days who embellish their lives and accomplishments on social media… we are all human and have our various issues.

ooh Broadway Dreamers is on YouTube.,

I'm wondering why people need their stars to be moral beacons now. They play pretend on screen. Who cares if they have affairs, are bad parents, etc? Paul and Joanne both seemed like fine people, not even for movie stars. The way some of the (I assume straight women who peruse DL) talk about them make them sound like criminals. Do you all think we should start denouncing people on the senate floor for adultery like Ingrid Bergman again?

Also, the idea that having an affair is a serious moral failing is beyond conservative.

I was more afraid they were going the opposite way and present him as a saint.

Joanne may not have been the perfect mother but she was hardly a bad parent. As far as I can tell, all of her daughters have grown up into happy and confident women with lovely families of their own.

Making her own gown for the Oscars, however, was unforgiveable.

R389 There was an interview on some morning show in 1991 before the Oscars where she said she hated flying and opted not to go. There were some pundits picking her to win in fact. Villainous roles rarely won at this time. So that didn’t exactly bode too well for Bates. Joanne or Anjelica definitely came in second.

R397 Is correct. Paul was nominated for producing RR. He was the one that convinced HER to go. She made a comment about the Oscars being too political, which might’ve have hurt her in the vote tally. Babs was convinced Joanne would win in fact.

R402 Newman was in his mid 70s at the time doing Broadway. Might not have been his most tiring acting assignment, but Broadway isn’t a walk in the park for any actor, especially if you’re old.

Paul had already played a run of the Stage Manager in Our Town at the Westport Playhouse (near his home) before the show transferred to Broadway (all on his name, of course). He only agreed to a limited run and it completely sold out, no surprise.

Does the new doc have any scenes of him playing young George in the TV musicalized version of Our Town in the mid-1950s? Emily was played by Eva Marie Saint and the Stage Manager was played by Frank Sinatra, who introduced the huge hit song "Love and Marriage (goes together like a horse and carriage)" in the show. I wonder if Paul sang in it?

R414 yes. Think it was the last episode.

[quote]Joanne was pretty but she didn't have movie star looks or a movie star acting style.

That's the POINT. R350 nailed it. You can't compare acting styles from different eras, it if you do, you won't understand either.

As far as that Joanne 'wanted to be Marilyn Monroe' misquote I won't believe unless there's video. What Paul said many times - on video - is that Joanne always wanted to play the 'frump.' That is, a complex character, not a femme fatale or sexy love interest.

[quote]Bancroft was more a contemporary of Joanne's than MacLaine

Tell that to Two for the Seesaw, r406.

Stop with the "Joanne Worley Was A Home Wrecker" liesI Not true!

[quote]Joanne always wanted to play the 'frump.' That is, a complex character, not a femme fatale or sexy love interest.

Femme fatales and sexy love interests can be complex also, r416. She simply wasn't that type and that physical allure wasn't in her arsenal...including her voice. Of course frumps were easier for her. I probably need to watch Gamma Rays again but my memory is that her Beatrice wasn't interesting. I would have loved to have seen Sada.

But they're not written that way for the screen. I don't understand this obsession with Joanne Woodward's voice, or are all of the comments from you, R419?

[quote] Babs was convinced Joanne would win in fact.

No actually Babs thought she was going to win. and when she didn't that is why she stormed out the back door.

[quote]I don't understand this obsession with Joanne Woodward's voice, or are all of the comments from you, [R419]?

No they aren't, r420.

[quote]But they're not written that way for the screen

Probably not usually, but sometimes they're complex.

^ Babs thought Joanne would win in 1969, not 1974. They both were nominated in both years.

I don't know where people think Joanne had a shot of winning in 1991

That year all the talk was Kathy Bates vs Anjelica Huston

The two women even hugged when Kathy made her way up the stage - that how much of the talk was between those two

R424, all the talk in 1974 was about how Streisand and Woodward were neck and neck to win Best Actress. It didn't happen that way, in fact it was shocking that Glenda Jackson won for a trite comedy. I watched it as it happened.

R421 in 1969 not 1974.

R424 I was 24 at the time I remember it vividly. There was talk of maybe a Woodward win. Huston played a rather unsavory character along with Bates. Roles like this were rare to win at the time. Woodward, on the other hand, was in a prestige, art house film from James Ivory. Not to mention it would’ve been a sentimental win for her. Joanne’s nomination was more than just a filler. Plus Bates was largely unknown, and Huston had just recently won. Like I said, it was Huston or Woodward placing second, but Bates victory wasn’t a landslide win.

R426 well I was around that time as well, and I don't remember hearing any talk about Woodward having any shot

It was Bates vs Huston

Julia Roberts nomination was a shocker - as everyone thought Sissy Spacek would get the fifth spot for "Long Walk Home"

Nomination for Woodward was expected, her winning was a long-shot.

[quote]Bancroft was more a contemporary of Joanne's than MacLaine.

Woodward 1930, Bancroft 1931, MacLaine 1934 - they're ALL contemporaries

R427 she wasn’t a long shot. But that’s your own version of reality. Plus Woodward won the NY lead actress critics award which gave her some momentum. She was never totally out of the race. I never heard any talk about Spacek. Roberts was huge, won the comedy globe, and PW was a massive hit. Hardly shocking she was nominated.

Her speaking / acting voice maybe sounds like Doris Day's.

Since it was implied in the doc that she put her career on hold somewhat, I wonder what roles Woodward would have gotten if she didn't have kids in that era? Perhaps some of the Geraldine Page, Patricia Neal, Ellen Burstyn parts? Those 'ordinary women' pictures. What do you all think? Which films can you see her in?

He may not have been interested in going out for hamburgers, but he definitely enjoyed a slice of bacon!

Eldergay here. Never could stand Shirley Maclaine. Never understood why she became such a big star. She was moderately good at kooky, comic roles but in serious roles, she was awful. Now that I think of it, Joanne would have been much better in Terms of Endearment. Maclaine was hammy as hell.

Agree, r433.

I enjoyed MacLaine in her early work: Trouble With Harry, Ask Any Girl, Some Came Running, The Matchmaker, a few others, and finally The Apartment. After that, she became too self-aware besides often being horribly miscast.

My dad hung out with them when they made the movie Drowning Pool. My dad was a pretty handsome guy. Women were always falling for him. He could have been a leading man himself.

Though I guess he wouldn't have told his children about the time he hooked up with Paul Newman and his wife, would he? Had there been a time.

*What* Patricia Neal parts, r431?

R436, Patricia Neal's film career was on hold for about five years in the 1960s, so Joanne had ample opportunity to grab a few.

Joanne might have been good casting in Dear Heart and Hud., r436. I guess she was already too old for Alice Doesn't Live Here Any More and The Exorcist, but a few years earlier could have been excellent casting.

I could see her in summer and smoke although page was very good in that.

The piper Laurie roles in the hustler and Carrie

Hud needed, Neal's "weathered beauty", r438. Beyond Hud, what Neal roles were there, Subject Was Roses? I was just questioning r431's inclusion of her on his list.

I love Page in Dear Heart, r431, but I could see Joanne doing it. The histrionics in it are at a level that would have fit her. I always wanted two versions. The original and one where Geri and Angie switch roles.

Can't stand Geraldine Page, that fiddly acting of hers with all the tics, mannerisms and quirks. So dated.

You probably don't like Sandy Dennis either, r443.

[quote] Plus Woodward won the NY lead actress critics award

So what? Holly Hunter won the NY Lead actress critics award as well for Broadcast news

and that year it was all about Cher vs Glenn Close for the Oscar

[quote]I guess she was already too old for Alice Doesn't Live Here Any More and The Exorcist

R438, Ellen Burstyn is only TWO YEARS younger than Joanne Woodward.

But she was a newer face to the movie public, r446. And the films that were being made when Ellen's movie career started taking off were a newer style of cinema than when Joanne's did. Ellen seemed like a fresher face.

How typical that Ethan Hawke one of the most bland straight people alive would make a six hour documentary about the most bland straight couple in film history. Fuck!!!

Other than being a new face, R447, nothing else you say makes sense. And as far as Joanne's movies being "old style cinema," anyone can renew themselves with a good role in a good film, whatever style. Hell, no one under 30 knew her from The Three Faces of Eve anyway.

I agree with blandness comment above.

[quote]nothing else you say makes sense

I think it does, r449. Ellen was known for films like Last Picture Show, King of Marvin Gardens and The Exorcist. Joanne won her Oscar in 1957. Ellen seemed fresher and more *new cinema* than Joanne even if they were only two years apart.

[quote] I would argue actors ARE creative artists.

People who appear on screen are puppets.

What you see is what the director/editor allows you to see.

God, some of you are wild with these potential Joanne castings. She would have been passable in The Hustler, maybe, but miscast to downright awful in the rest of these suggestions, ESPECIALLY Carrie! She wasn't too old for Ellen Burstyn's roles - they were two years apart. She was a worse actress, however.

Actresses' careers can have strange and unpredictable journeys.

Before Ellen Burstyn was re-discovered in the early 70s, she had already spent years as Ellen McRae toiling in mostly mediocre TV dramas and before that on The Jackie Gleason Hour as a "What a Way to Go Girl."

Before The Hustler, Piper Laurie was a rather bland though pretty Hollywood ingenue at Universal often teamed with Tony Curtis in those 1950s Sandal and Sword B picture epics.

And before Hud, Patricia Neal was typed for playing glacially beautiful urban sophisticates, as in The Fountainhead and Breakfast at Tiffany's.

How they all got out of their ruts is ready for DL examination!

R454, Gleason's tag line was "And away we go!".

Oops, you're right, r455. I stand "oh deared" and corrected and humbled.

"What a Way to Go!" was from that wretched Shirley MacLaine movie with Paul Newman and a host of other leading men that Joanne wasn't offered.

R456, It was to star Marilyn Monroe, but . . .

TCM now, 8PM is Paris Blues (1961). At 10PM, Paul's directory debut with Joanne acting, Rachel Rachel (1968)

More Ethan Hawke...? Oh, dear.

[quote] Yes, she won an Oscar, but it was for a movie that most people under the age of 50 have never seen.

Well honey, when Luise Rainer popped off she had won two Oscars for two movies almost no one under the age of 50 had seen. but she still made the front page of the NYTimes.

It seems just beyond some of you that not every film actress in the world wants to be impersonated one day by Mario Cantone in his stand-up act. Some of them do it because they want to do genuinely good work, not in order so gay men can caricature their mannerisms.

Why aren't Paul Newman's daughters prettier?

Woodard has one of the all-time great American speaking voices for film--so much clarity, but also so much nuance.

I loved that Scorsese had her do the narration for "The Age of Innocence"--it was really magnificent. No one could have done a better job.

R445 the critics awards serve to give the actor momentum in the Oscar race. I’m aware it doesn’t ALWAYS work. Sally Hawkins cleaned up critics wise and won the comedy globe for Happy Go Lucky but failed to get an Oscar nomination for 2008. Anjelica Huston won in LA and NSFC, but lost the drama globe to Bates. You keep touting that the race was between her and Bates, so the critics awards were enough for Huston to make her a front runner, but not Woodward? It was always a three way race.

[quote]Well honey, when Luise Rainer popped off she had won two Oscars for two movies almost no one under the age of 50 had seen. but she still made the front page of the NYTimes.

Well toots, Luise had the distinction of winning two Best Actress Oscars consecutively and for two films that are considered classics of the Golden Age. I wouldn't be surprised if Joanne makes the front page...but more due to being Paul Newman's wife.

R460, Listen, cunt face . . . Luise Rainer was a two time Academy Award winning actress from the Go!den Age of Hollywood and thanks to TCM, I can guarantee you more people have seen her two Oscar winning performances than the one of Mrs. Newman.

Bette Davis often said in interviews that it used to worry her that impersonators never did impressions of her, until about ten years into her career. Bette was wise enough to know that familiarity helps to make one a star. Nothing made her happier than when Arthur Blake first began doing an impression of her and others followed.

"Blake's nightclub act included impersonations of multiple famous women; including Tallulah Bankhead, Katharine Hepburn, Hedda Hopper, Edna Mae Oliver, Louella Parsons, Zazu Pitts, Barbara Stanwyck, and Sophie Tucker. Of all the women he portrayed, he was most celebrated for his portrayals of Bette Davis, Carmen Miranda, and Eleanor Roosevelt. His impersonation of Roosevelt led to an invitation from the First Lady and President Franklin D. Roosevelt to perform for them in the East Room of the White House while they were in office. Bette Davis stated the following in an interview,

People think I don't like those impersonators who do me. Well, they're wrong. I like it very much, as long as they are very good. The only time I don't like it is if they aren't good, or, worse, if they're better than I am. I watch them to learn about myself. Until I saw Arthur Blake, I never knew I moved my elbows so much. "

[quote] Listen, cunt face . . . Luise Rainer was a two time Academy Award winning actress from the Go!den Age of Hollywood thanks to TCM, I can guarantee you more people have seen her two Oscar winning performances than the one of Mrs. Newman.

But twat breath: TCM shows more movies from the 50s and 60s than it does of the 30s, and Woodward made more films than Rainer anyway for TCM to show. TCM audiences would be more familiar with her than with Rainer.

Watching Paris Blues

Paul Newman sporting a washboard stomach before the term was even invented!

Obviously, R467 cannot afford a TCM subscription or she wouldn't make such ridiculous comments.

I have a TCM subscription and I would bet I make more money per year than you do.

My question is: who were the female impersonators doing impressions of in the first 10 years of Bette Davis' career? Minnie Maddern Fiske? Pola Negri??

r471, I've been reading a book about gay men in the first decades of the century, and it turns out female impersonators mostly did stage stars then: Ethel Barrymore, Gertrude Lawrence, Tallulah Bankhead, Mae West, Sybil Thorndike, Mrs. Carter, etc. I guess they couldn't do silent stars because they wanted specifically to have the fun of mimicking the voices.

When sound came in, they would still do Mae West and Ethel Barrymore (who both did a lot of film), but they would add distinctive sound film stars like Davis and Katharine Hepburn, with their imitable accents and speaking styles, to their repertoires.

Newman was an emotionally remote and inscrutable character — a bad combo in a parent of 6. I was surprised his daughters are so open about his alcoholism. Good doc; would have been great without the vapid commentary from Ethan Hawke and his Hollywood dolt squad.

r472, amazing to think that those stage actresses' voices and mannerisms were famous enough to the masses before the advent of film and television. I guess it was mostly through radio and recordings.

Those grandsons are really cute!

Weird when one of the daughters just casually mentions finding proof that Newman had an affair, then the subject is just dropped and they move on.

It definitely strains to make them, particularly Joanne, more interesting than they were. "She started knitting. She knit a lot." - Laura Linney.

Wow, how riveting.

I haven't seen either Winning or WUSA but Joanne looked quite attractive in the clips. The long, blonde, straight hair and the late '60s asthetic seemed to flatter her. But by Marigolds and SW,WD she was looking dowdy again.

meta and charming, cerebral and deeply felt - The Hollywood Reporter

Rolling Stone.

Ethan interviewed for Variety.

[quote] [R472], amazing to think that those stage actresses' voices and mannerisms were famous enough to the masses before the advent of film and television. I guess it was mostly through radio and recordings.

They would have done their impersonations mostly before a sophisticated New York crowd. who would have seen those women on the stage frequently. Also, someone like Ethel Barrymore toured all over the United States back in those days, and huge crowds came to see her.

It was just such a different world then. Before sound cinema, and especially before radio or recordings, you could be a huge, huge star like one of the Barrymores or the Booths, with your name in the all the papers; and yet only a small portion of the nation's population would have actually ever seen you perform.

here's Arthur Blake as Bette Davis and others. He is underwhelming.

[quote] Blake's nightclub act included impersonations of multiple famous women; including Tallulah Bankhead, Katharine Hepburn, Hedda Hopper, Edna Mae Oliver, Louella Parsons, Zazu Pitts, Barbara Stanwyck, and Sophie Tucker. Of all the women he portrayed, he was most celebrated for his portrayals of Bette Davis, Carmen Miranda, and Eleanor Roosevelt.

Nothing like a first-class ZaSu Pitts impersonator to get the audiences laughing!

bert savoy was the mnost famous female impersonator from 1900 through about 1930--here he is as Lillian Russell.

This thread certainly took an interesting turn!

Is there any episode that stands out as worth watching. I'm fifteen minutes into the first, and I'm not sure I can get through Hawke and the zoom actors (I don't care about them).

R486 the middle episodes tend to drag some. The Zoom stuff gets better as the series goes on. Probably the last two episodes are the best.

I saw Randy Allen in performance as post-stroke Bette. He was pretty spot-on. He even talked to the front row where I was and when I told him my name is Peter he did the Peter impersonator line.

Just finished. An excellent piece of documentary work.

So, what did we learn after six hours?

Paul was a drunk, Joanne slept with a married man with children that resulted in a broken marriage, Paul cheated on Joanne, Joanne became resentful of Paul's fame, their marriage came close to ending due to Paul's drinking, Joanne and Paul were maybe not meant to be parents and in the end their marriage was not the fairy tale existence that the media has been putting forth for decades.

I'm actually getting through it. I'm on Episode 5.

So, by interjecting his daughter Mia in here (really?) during the segment where Newman cheats on Woodward, is he trying to explain to his daughter how/why he cheated on their mother with Mia's nanny? Is this about Newman or Hawke?

This would have worked better as four or, at most, five episodes. Hawke is a bit intrusive

R89: The term schizophrenic had been around for decades and not just in medical circles---there's a Daffy Duck cartoon that references it---"schizo, schizo, manic depressive". "Three Faces of Eve" and other stories of multiples led to the meaning of schizophrenia being confused. Rather than being a "multiple" personality the "split" aspect of schizophrenia ("split brain" in Latin, I believe) refers to the split from reality and the disorganization of behavior. Regardless, it and her other early films suffer from the somewhat heavy handedness of what passed for "psychological" or social problem drama of the time. I like her better in her later films and her tv work.

Newman was star who became an actor. His striking good looks carried him through a series of lead roles where he was, at best competent. His accent and his ability to convey Williams coded dialogue in "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" are chopped liver compared with Liz Taylor. He seems to have gotten better later partly because of Woodward. It's funny to see clips of him with Tom Cruise---a star who always seems to be "trying to act" but never gets lost in a character and Redford who is likeable enough and pretty but never became a real actor himself. At least Redford could direct and has done useful things in his life.

As for Woodward, the need to mold herself in real life to the roles of wife and mother may actually be what helped her go from method acting in "serous" film to something more natural later on. Her own mother sounds like a likable airhead and her mother-in-law sounds like a complete WASPy horror and she had no sister on which to model herself.

She would have competed for roles with Maclaine simply because they were from the same age/talent cohort. They both were "unusual" for their time and probably difficult to cast because they were not bombshells or "cool blondes" which were more characteristic of the late 50s/early 60s. Woodward, what ever her limitations, could carry a film. Maclaine tended to do better in an ensemble with a strong director as in "The Apartment", where she also didn't play wacky for once. Her starring vehicles from that era tend to be unwatchable. Woodward would have been interesting in "The Turning Point" for the Bancroft character---she probably would have made it more sympathetic, but she also could have moved more like a dancer.

Woodward saying, "I love my children, but can't help but think I would have been better off without having any" was pretty brutal.

R483 So far for me that’s the most courageous and real thing the series has presented yet.

If Jackie Witte Newan died in 1993 and was interviewed on tape at Paul's request, he must have begun working on his proposed memoir decades ago.

Was Newman aware that transcripts of the recordings had been made before he destroyed them?

Look for this to win Best Documentary Oscar next year. You can count on it.

R493, That's right up there with Sondheim's mother telling him her biggest regret in life was giving birth to him.

Don't parents realize how hurtful it is for their children to hear or read remarks like that?

Joanne didn't say that to her children. I'll bet they didn't hear that remark until it was revealed in this documentary.

No she has said that in interviews in the past. It's in the Shelley book.

her living with his angry drunk ass must have been horrid.

Joanne Woodward Newman comes off as more than a bit cunty on the documentary, as she does on this Dick Cavett appearance with Newman.

So who did Paul have an affair with? I'm only on episode 3.

Not quite, r484...

[quote]Thomas W. Lamb had already established himself as a respected theatre architect when, in 1911, producer and manager Al Woods commissioned him to design a new 42nd Street theatre. Julian Eltinge was, at the same time, the premier female impersonator in the country, having plays written for him and earning one of the highest salaries in the entertainment business. Eltinge had been largely responsible for Wood's success and wealth and, out of appreciation, the new theatre was named “The Eltinge.”

In other words, 490, they were human beings. Who didn't have stuff figured out any more than the rest of us do.

Sorry R490

[quote]"I love my children, but can't help but think I would have been better off without having any" was pretty brutal.

You've never heard anyone say something like that? It's not uncommon. I even asked my mother if she would have had children again, expecting her to say no (she said "yes.")

[quote]It definitely strains to make them, particularly Joanne, more interesting than they were.

For me that's a large part of Joanne Woodward's appeal, she's was "every woman," she was a friend, a neighbor, a person you'd meet at the community pool. Very natural, not some loud mouth diva.

"You've never heard anyone say something like that? It's not uncommon. I even asked my mother if she would have had children again, expecting her to say no (she said "yes.")"

When you're a celebrity and it's printed in a book, magazine, newspaper or online for all the world to see . . . then, no, you don't make such a selfish and hurtful comment.

R504, Why perpetuate the false narrative?

R507, IT DIDN'T APPEAR in a book, magazine, newspaper or online for all the world to see. It's only in this documentary. If it doesn't bother her own children why does it bother YOU so greatly? You have a lot of issues with your own family and project them on to this.

[quote] Woodward saying, "I love my children, but can't help but think I would have been better off without having any" was pretty brutal.

It is honest because she gave up her career to raise her kids. Look at Shirley Maclaine, yes she had great parts. But she dumped her daughter to be raised by her ex-husband, then stuck her in boarding school.

Now they barely have a relationship. Wheras at Joanne can say she did one thing right, by putting her career on the back-burner to raise her children.

This brings us back to Meryl Streep. If she didn't have a supportive husband who was willing to handle the parenting while she was away, Streep would never have the career she has had.

You're being very kind to Shirley MacLaine, R510. Shirley and her daughter no longer speak - there is no relationship.

Did Meryl Streep have a supportive husband or was he a bad sculptor who couldn’t sell anything so her income potential was the deciding factor?

I don't think he's a nobody, r512...

Ethan Hawke’s mangling of everyone’s names and titles of plays, etc. is certainly annoying.

Hawke is the weak link here. He's a lousy interviewer and too much of a fanboy. Much of the time, he seems like a stereotypical stoner in need of a shower.

Wow, R515 -- I couldn't have said that better myself.

I also found the continuity issues with the length of his greasy hair very distracting.

A lovely wig was called for.

R513 There are no major American or international museums who own his works, though banks and corporations seem to be the audience, and not ones with cutting edge collections.

r518, that's still pretty respectable for a sculptor.

Not really, not at this point in his career.

It’s interesting that everyone is taking at face value the premise that Woodward put her career on hold to raise her children and support her husband. What is the evidence of this other than her own assertions? It seems more like an excuse. She certainly didn’t hesitate to make movies when she could. What roles did she want/was she offered/did she have to turn down?

[quote]Not really, not at this point in his career.

A bit sexist, r520 to expect them to have equally starry careers. They ain't Steve & Eydie.

R521, you're tiresome.

Could Joanne Woodward have been a good Hitchcock blonde? Why didn't he just cast her in Torn Curtain since he didn't want Julie Andrews? I know the studio wanted a big name (as Hitchcock originally wanted Eva Marie Saint) but the Newman-Woodward combo was decent box office (or was it not?).

Joanne did not possess "cool beauty." As for roles she turned down, this site (seems a lot more reliable than "notstarring") claims:

She was rejected for: On the Waterfront, Suddenly Last Summer (Gore Vidal's prodding didn't work, thank god)

She was considered for: Oklahoma, The Man With the Golden Arm (Eleanor Parker), Point Blank, Planet of the Apes (Kim Hunter), 40 Carats, The Stepford Wives, Fried Green Tomatoes (Jessica Tandy)

She turned down/was replaced in/dropped out of: The True Story of Jesse James, The Young Lions (both Hope Lange), The Chalk Garden, What's The Matter With Helen?

So she wasn't really being offered much even after her Oscar win, certainly not all of Shirley MacLaine's roles.

Probably because she had a new baby (Claire, 1965) and two other children under ten, R524. Leaving small children with others fine, but one only a few months old? Otherwise I like the idea of Joanne in the role played by Julie Andrews - Julie and Paul didn't have an ounce of chemistry, it was like their scenes were spliced together in the editing room.

Who was the best actress of these three: Joanne Woodward, Eva Marie Saint, or Lee Remick?

Lee Remick, without a doubt.

I'd go with Saint, myself.

All three filled the same kind of space, but Eva Marie Saint knew she wasn't a STAR (unlike Joanne/Lee, who were pushed as such) so I like her more. The blonde version of Claire Bloom/Jean Simmons...

Here's a Joanne The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds

Interview with Ethan Hawke

Woodward was considered or at least tested with James dean for east of Eden from what I remember. I believe her test was featured on some dvd for the movie. Julie Harris got the role.

I love Eva Marie saint. There’s something very comforting about her.

Newman and Redford were two of the best-looking men in Hollywood, although Redford had that red-headed skin and was probably not as good-looking in person. But Newman had those gorgeous eyes and a disarming smile, yet neither had any sex appeal at all. I liked a lot of their movies though, especially the two that they were in together.

R509, Please see R499.

You have obviously designated yourself Joanne Woodward's official apologist.

You honestly believe her children were unaware of her cruel comment until this documentary?

Seriously?

Even if she made the heartless comment many years ago, the sting of hearing and/or reading it does not subside or lessen with time.

I disagree, R534. Newman had huge sex appeal, Redford, none.

Paul Newman was too short to be considered sexy.

R535, as has been said before - you are tiresome. Bring your immense personal family problems to a therapist, not here.

Redford's sex appeal sometimes came out in small films where it wasn't so expected like THE HOT ROCK. Anyone see that one? Great fun and Redford is effortlessly good in it, unlike most of his other work.

And what was that early 60s film that Newman did with Elke Sommer? He was incredibly hot in that one. Oh yeah, THE PRIZE....mmmmm.....

R538, Your inability to recognize and accept the truth leads to just one conclusion.

What are the films in the 4th episode where Joanne commits suicide in the jail cell and then the one where Paul’s ass looks great in those tight pants and he’s telling Joanne he knows how to leave if he wants to? Is it the same film?

They could title the film clips better in this doc, esp. since do many of them are pretty obscure.

This was always going to be a DL viewing event.

R524: Torn Curtain was horrible. She missed out on nothing. The worst of Hitchcock's color films and unlike Marnie, it's never received re-consideration.

r541 Both clips are from WUSA (1970)

WUSA

Even if Meryl Streep husband didn't sell a single piece - he put his career on the backburner to support her career

Yes she was the breadwinner - but we don't look down on women who put their career on hold to support their husband

So why should we do the same with Meryl Streep husband?

[quote] She certainly didn’t hesitate to make movies when she could.

But if you notice MANY (not all) of the movies she did make, were directed by Paul.

Which seems to indicate, she mostly worked, when they worked together

[quote]So why should we do the same with Meryl Streep husband?

*We* don't.

I've always felt that Joanne Woodward was fantastic, and classy actress.

Watch this scene from Mr. and Mrs. Bridge. This scene brings out a truth about certain kinds of families, about certain types of family relationships, that I don't think I've seen on screen before. She is wonderful here. And utterly heartbreaking. She's playing pure truth, and pain here.

Actresses have long claimed you cannot have it all - both a career and a family life. One suffers when the other is ignored. It's hard enough for two actors to stay married because of the egos involved. Few have succeeded. The Newmans are the rare example but even they had their struggles, Joanne having a huge problem with Paul supernoving her. It happens in the reverse too when a man can't handle a famous wife. At least Joanne is honest about it.

Robert Redford was never sexy to me, too buttoned up, and I could not stand him in most roles. He was fine in Barefoot in the Park and the movies with Newman. Paul Newman could be very sexy and was a MUCH better actor.

[quote]Paul Newman could be very sexy and was a MUCH better actor

That's because Redford did *movie star* acting. Paul was able to transition to character roles. Redford wasn't.

R478 contains a link which caters for the illiterate.

Those people unable to read can hear the article.

What makes Newman sexy is the same thing that makes Redford sexless.

R512 Gummer may think he's a nobody but that metal thing shows us that he was a vandal.

R507 evidently never heard the comment of Jimmy Carter's mother Miss Lillian. "When I look at my children, sometimes I think I should have remained a virgin."

Yes, R556. You must understand R507 is injured and has an agenda.

R557 is sad, just sad.

Yeah, it’s sad to take it out on Joanne Woodward.

She needed Nell to appear in Rachel Rachel and Gamma Rays.

Joanne Woodward said she might rate herself a 6.5 out of 10 on the parenthood scale, but admitted her children might rate her much lower.... I love her honesty: parenting isn't for everyone, why pretend otherwise?

Why, r560?

Actors make horrible parents.

They're too self-centered.

The list of bad Hollywood parents is endless.

R559, Illness or death do not give one a pass.

Oh for chrissakes, it's not like Bing Crosby married Joan Crawford.

Agree with R426, R429 about the ‘91 Oscars:

Woodward was a contender as her performance in Mr. & Mrs. Bridge was much admired.

Huston was the front runner for her much talked about performance in The Grifters which positioned her as a lead, dramatic actress without Nicholson or her father.

Bates was the dark horse and her win was one of the last genuine surprises at the Oscars and, of course, completely deserved. (The win also kind of flattered mainstream audiences because the film was a big hit.)

The only surprise about Roberts’ nomination was that they actually did it, since PW was, along with Ghost, the one of the biggest hits of the year. Neither film was very good though and both were of low-brow taste so, aside from Whoppi’s supporting turn, the inclusion of both films kind of tainted the ceremony. But I wouldn’t consider Roberts’ nomination a shocker. More that it was just apart in quality from the other nominees.

Woodward would’ve certainly been a long shot on the night but was considered a contender throughout the season.

Also, in response to I think it was R545: Glenn Close was NEVER going to win for Fatal Attraction. Not on the night or ever. She was ACKNOWLEDGED, of course, but that film and her role in it were far too controversial to be further elevated by the Academy. The 7 (or so) nominations it did get, especially the above the line ones, were surprising (though Close was likely always a given as a nominee) - Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay and Best Supporting Actress were all surprising nominations; there was probably some question as to whether Douglas would be nominated for Fatal Attraction or Wall Street. But the film and its depiction of Close’s character was far too divisive - even with Close herself, which was widely publicised at the time. The audience response to her character was actually a good indicator of the latent misogyny inherent in American society which would rear its ugly head decades later in our current politics. She was never going to win despite her obvious and major contribution to the film’s success - which is what made her loss to Foster the following year for her worthy performance in Dangerous Liasons so surprising; it looked like it was going to be her “make up” Oscar. It became clear then that despite a number of nominations throughout the ‘80s, the Academy didn’t really like Glenn Close enough to actually give her an Oscar and that remains true today.

^^ In response to R445

Growing up in the ‘70s, to me, Woodward was always “a wife who acts”. She was never my favourite actress but I understood she was reputed to be a terrific actress. Newman was like, a star who didn’t have to try very hard. He never really played anyone of any real relevance and seemed to make buddy pictures with Redford. Their pairings, especially the 1st one, really defined so much of appeal of the culture in the early ‘70s for a certain kind of American male; fans of John Wayne for whom it would be years before they got on board with the likes of Jack Nicholson in Cuckoo’s Nest. Newman seemed to be mostly horsing around. It wasn’t until the ‘80s with films like Absence of Malice and especially The Verdict that he emerged as something different. And then there was the push to get him an Oscar.

I remember their film of The Glass Ménagerie was a huge misfire - maybe it seemed more so because I was living in Chicago at the time and there was a ton of publicity about it because the even did like a benefit premiere screening for Steppenwolf because of Malkovich’s involvement (it was one of his early, bewigged, film roles). And it wasn’t very well received, primarily because her performance was thought to be so hammy. Chicago, of course, was where the play first came to notice with the original production with Laurette Taylor. I just remember the whole campaign kind of fell flat.

I think the clips from Gamma Rays give us a good idea of what Woodward would’ve been like in Carrie - all wrong. I think as mentioned above, Woodward never had a flair for comedy.

It’s interesting that given the Academy’s affection for actors turned directors, awarding Redford, Beatty, Eastwood, Costner, etc., that Newman was never even nominated for directing.

I finished. It was good. I liked the editing of the old movie clips set against a new soundtrack.

The narration was distracting (especially when I'd hear George Clooney's voice). But I did think some of the voice acting was done well. The visual clips of anyone besides Newman, Woodward, or their family members was annoying. Hawke needed to understand that he's not important as a personality in this. It was more interesting when we learned that actors like Allison Janney owes her start in the industry to Woodward.

I was hoping they would have interviewed more of their contemporaries, but I guess most of them are dead. :(

*Also, Newman and Woodward had palpable chemistry on screen. It really came through.

Mr and Mrs Bridge is the exact sort of white, upper-crust Merchant/Ivory stuff the Academy eats up (especially around that time - Howard's End was just two years later). Joanne was fabulous, I always remember when she comes into his room singing and trumpeting and then bursts into tears and says 'You are just like your father!!!' when he ignores her enthusiasm. It's a very raw, sensitive performance. I think Huston would have made a more deserving winner, but perhaps the incest put them off. I always found Bates in Misery to be a bit hammy and it's an extremely 'simple' portrayal of what is actually a complex mental illness.

Someone mentioned The Long Walk Home and I think both Whoopi and Sissi are incredibly underrated in it. When I saw The Help basically copy the entire thing in a more sanitised, cheesy, candy-coloured version and rack up nominations galore two decades later, I felt they were wronged to have missed out for much more sensitive and accurate portrayals. But a lot of Whoopi's dramatic work was snubbed.

It's crazy that after her Oscar-nommed turn in Summer Wishes Winter Dreams, Joanne only made two theatrical films in the next 12 years. So this is probably the era she missed out on a lot of parts as well. Like Gena Rowlands (another actress nobody except her husband knew what to do with), she found most of her best work in her mid-late career in TV films. Some of them have dated horribly, but the performances haven't, including an Alzheimers one that was clearly the basis for Still Alice (she plays a teacher in it too). I actually would have liked to see her do a movie with Cassavettes, perhaps a double-leading role from her and Rowlands. Without the schmaltz of something like The Turning Point.

Allison Janney thanked Woodward when she won her Academy Award. Janney had a small part in the TV movie Blind Spot which starred Woodward and Laura Linney was also in it.

I would have loved to see Joanne and Anne Bancroft and Shirley MacLaine do The Three Sisters. Anything to erase that horrible Actors Studio version captured on video with Geraldine Page, Kim Stanley, Shelley Winters and Sandy Dennis.

Allison Janney's Oscar speech.

Joanne's Oscar win. She couldn't get to the podium fast enough.

The thought of MacLaine doing Chekhov makes me laugh.

On another topic, I wonder if any of her daughters act as a caregiver for her now that she has been ill for a very long time.

Did anyone see Lucky Them (2013, starring Toni Collette, Johnny Depp, Oliver Platt, Thomas Haden Church)? Apparently Woodward had a character role who only appeared in voiceover. How did she film this when she was probably already in the throes of Alzheimers and hadn't acted in years?

Joanne's suffered from Alzheimer's since 2007? And she's still alive? That's amazing. Though I'm sure it's annoying for her family.

[quote] Bates was the dark horse and her win was one of the last genuine surprises at the Oscars

When you win the Golden Globe for Best Actress (as Kathy Bates did for Misery) you are NOT The dark horse - you are the front runner.

It is laughable some posters are trying to rewrite history and write Bates wining the Oscar was a "come from behind" win and that Woodward was a contender.

Unless the performance is so unbelievable fantastic and the performance of the year, very few past winners will win again.

Look at Meryl Streep and how many past nominations she had before she won for a second BEST ACTRESS Oscar

Woodward was probably running third, with Huston & Bates neck and neck in the voting.

I thought it was tacky that Woodward didn't even wait until Paul's body was cold to sell his "very sentimental" watch.

As other have stated this documentary could really use better citations on its clips. The movies should all have a year and listings of whoever the scene partner/s are/were. The TV show shows need to have a name, the name of the host (even if it seems obvious) and the date of broadcast. Home movies should be noted and things like PR junkets and other types of materials like that noted too. It’s not like they didn’t already have that information. Especially since what they cover isn’t done linearly, but they pull thematic clips from all throughout their careers.

Oh right, R580. So where is Renee Zellwegger's Oscar for Nurse Betty? Or Colin Farrell's for In Bruges?

The GGs were like the only awards pre-cursor back then and weren't as reliable an indicator as they then became, for a time.

I found it annoying when Ethan was talking to his daughter. What a shameful waste of time.

R584 I do not agree. The movie is partly about what goes on behind the façade of two very famous people who are renowned for having some kind of perfect marriage. So Hawke, who had a very public divorce with his movie star wife, and family are relevant to the proceedings.

The doc is about the Newman's. So what about the Hawkes.

Jaysus, r49. Take a Valium. You sound like a feverishly overwrought Fifties Frau. She was a home-wrecking whoore!!!

Threads getting derailed by two mentally ill obsessives is my least favorite thing about Datalounge.

"The Two Faces of Joanne Dearest"

[quote] So where is Renee Zellwegger's Oscar for Nurse Betty? Or Colin Farrell's for In Bruges?

Those are wins in the comedy category - very rarely has a GG win in the COMEDY category translated into an Oscar win

But you already know that

The Joanne Woodward is a Homewrecker Troll has been haunting the DL for years. Finally, she has come into her own!

R586 They would've lived a similar life in the public eye, dealing with many of the issues the Newmans dealt with. Do I really need to spell that out?

The former nanny/Hawke's new wife is.....not attractive. Wonder if that makes Uma feel better or worse.

I thought the whole thing was endless, and for the hour or two of really interesting stuff, there was 4 hours of filler. I also hated that they would have some actor reading the dialogue from the tapes, then at the same time, use a clip of some move or TV show that might have thematically something to do with what was being said, but with the sound on low, and then music on top of that. It was an overwhelming cochophony.

I did not like the addition of an alternative score over the movie clips - that seemed like an unnecessary appropriation of someone else's work.

The last episode really dragged - it would've been better if this were at most a 4 hour documentary. I was too worn out to appreciate much of the conclusions drawn in the final episode. Couldn't wait for it to end.

[quote]Joanne's suffered from Alzheimer's since 2007? And she's still alive?

Did they say Alzheimer's or did they say dementia? Basic dementia can take many forms and is not as deadly as Alzheimer's. Meaning she may be so forgetful she can't take care of herself anymore, but she still recognizes her family and her own face in the mirror.

I am a elder gay who doesn't know how to get or where to go to see this doc. Help?

R580 of course Bates was a front runner, but it wasn’t like Zellweger, Bullock, Jlaw, or Julia Roberts who had the category to herself. Villainous or incestuous mother roles rarely won then. And there have many actors who have won multiple times so don’t give me that. Probably what put Bates out ahead was more voters saw the film than TG or MAMB.

R597 HBO MAX. If you can't get it, fellow elder, I will try to upload it for you. Let me know.

It was produced by CNN, so it will eventually air there.