The Ordinary People Blu-Ray is out!

And for those of you who haven’t bought it to support Beth, if it’s starting all over again—the lying, the covering up, the disappearing for hours—I won't stand for it. I can't stand for it. I really can't!

I’ve been waiting for this for years!

Straight into the DL gift store

Timothy Hutton’s interview is insightful and very informative.

In the behind the scene photographs, Redford looks chic and divine.

I'd buy it, but I'm saving up to spend Christmas in London.

I just ordered it on Amazon I can’t wait for it to get here

Buck never would have been on DVD.

Buck would have held out for Blu-Ray from the beginning.

Judith Guest is so endearing and down too earth.

Oh, dear to me.

*to

Will be Barbara Thorndike appear in the deleted scenes?

Unfortunately, there are only two supplemental features, though both are good if too short. This film really deserves a Criterion release, along with a director’s commentary.

The way she swiftly jams the French toast in the food disposal though.

“You’re not hungry, you’re not hungry.”

I'm going to rush out and buy it after my trig class.

I need Lazenby inside of me.

Silly me, I read OP's title as "Jew-Ray" is out!

R15 Gee, I was awful at trig.

Wait a minute… Did I take trig?

I hope they cut out the “oh you’re just saying that” and singing scene because that is completely unwatchable.

R18- LOL

Have memorized EVERY line in the movie?

There's that list here on dl of movies you never get tired of watching.

Here on datalounge Ordinary People is certainly a movie us datalounge queens ( including me) NEVER get tired of talking about.

Wasn't Timothy Hutton cancelled?

[quote]I'd buy it, but I'm saving up to spend Christmas in London.

Some visit me, gurl - we'll have Mince Pies with Brandy Butter in front of my mock coal gas fire.

I meant * come visit me.

oh, dear...

You would know where to find the boys and the blu-rays!

"Buck would have held out for 4K not some ord..."

"ARF! ARF ARF!! ARF!!!!"

I hear the PAL version is absolutely Dickensian!

French toast scene

^ The French toast scene chilled me to the bone. WASP dynamics were very foreign to me as a child. My family is mixed race and very ethnic. Everyone would be screaming and crying around the breakfast table had my mother had thrown French toast down the garbage disposal (we also didn’t have a garbage disposal. We had compost systems, a dog, a cat and chickens).

R29- One must remember that Beth was being a BITCH in this scene.

Changing the subject and talking about the shutters after Beth threw out food she went to considerable time and care to prepare the second she didn’t get the response she desired from her pale, sickly was almost violent to my childhood self. Passive aggression was hard for me to parse.

R30 No, she was pretty much like that every morning.

Beth would’ve never thrown out the French toast, so quickly, if Buck wasn’t hungry.

Buck would have never refused the French toast.

Buck would have been served crepes that Beth painstakingly prepared along with an assortment of fresh berries and a soft cheese.

What's that hoary old moral question from HS philosophy? "If you could blink and someone would disappear from existence, but no one would ever know but you, would you do it?"

Beth would've blinked Conrad into the cornfield, and I'll never be persuaded otherwise.

Here’s the infamous plate, without the French toast.

[quote] What's that hoary old moral question from HS philosophy? "If you could blink and someone would disappear from existence, but no one would ever know but you, would you do it?" Beth would've blinked Conrad into the cornfield, and I'll never be persuaded otherwise.

The dirty truth at the heart of this movie is that some mothers find it impossible to love a child they bore. Not for a good reason. But they perceive a weakness and the child angers and repulses them for no fault of their own.

And the genius of the movie is that we don’t see Beth as any less of a fully complex human who contains as much love and light as she does darkness and hatred being in spite of it.

Buck would never have approved of that heavily symbolic watery cover art.

I love your post, R38.

So sad that this is #1 most wanted in the DL.

R38 Maybe this is how they sit around and talk at the hospital, but we're not at the hospital now.

R41- DL Queens ( including me }worship BITCHES like Beth Jarrett , Barbara Thorndike , Vera Donavan and one of dl's favorite bitches-

Martha Stewart

Buck would have been in the family photo

[quote] The dirty truth at the heart of this movie is that some mothers find it impossible to love a child they bore. Not for a good reason. But they perceive a weakness and the child angers and repulses them for no fault of their own.

I don’t mean to sidetrack the discussion away from Beth (we all know what her reaction would be!), but the above incisive insight about a mother’s love applies to some fathers equally as well. I speak from a lifetime of firsthand experience.

Beth was my mother, except I was her only son. She's gone now, but not much changed in our relationship.

So you had French toast for breakfast? Lucky bastard.

[quote]Beth was my mother, except I was her only son.

Then who did she love more than you?

Herself, r48. She was a proper WASP.

[quote] I don’t mean to sidetrack the discussion away from Beth (we all know what her reaction would be!), but the above incisive insight about a mother’s love applies to some fathers equally as well. I speak from a lifetime of firsthand experience.

Indeed. There are a lot of queer readings of the film.

Conrad is sensitive. But with Beth, we know even if Bud was gay, she would still love him more than Conrad.

I got a digital copy

Give her the god damned camera!

I’d go buy this movie but I’m too busy in god damned Spain and god damned Portugal.

Filmed in my hometown, including at my high school! ❤

[quote] But with Beth, we know even if Bud was gay, she would still love him more than Conrad.

Get out of this thread AT ONCE.

[quote]But with Beth, we know even if Bud was gay, she would still love him more than Conrad.

Beth never would have CALLED me "Bud."

Buck died. Again.

Buck would never have seen a Jew psychiatrist.

Fuck you, Sissy Spacek.

R57- BUCK looks a lot like Christopher Atkins ca. 1980.

Speaking of Jew psychiatrists, Judd Hirsch was as sexy as it gets.

I would have lied on his couch any day.

[quote]I would have lied on his couch any day.

You need to be honest with your therapist.

Try "lain," dear.

But you CAN save French toast. Why does no one ever mention that? People hate Beth but seem to take what she says seriously.

If the French toast was THAT important then she should have given it to that lil shit from Kramer vs. Kramer!

R63- That reminds me of the time MANY years ago ca. 1971 we came back from the Amusement Park and I brought home my leftover Cotton Candy. I left it on the counter. I was going to finish it later. An hour later I went into the kitchen to finish my treat and the whole thing had DISSOLVED like the Wicked Witch Of The West.

I haven't seen the film in some years now, buy I have a recollection that is perhaps not to be trusted. Even from seeing it the first time in a cinema, I recall the film in slightly brownish, faded Kodachrome tones, everything slightly overexposed with a thin, nicotine glaze of golden-brown...as if Beth's brown Hartmann luggage infected everything.

[quote]His death was presaged by a red fox dancing in the twilight outside his window.

How many dancing red foxes does the Blu-Ray release deserve?

[quote]Buck would never have seen a Jew psychiatrist.

WRONG.

It’s Buck never would have SEEN a psychiatrist!

GET 👏🏻

IT 👏🏻

RIGHT, R58 👏🏻

Beth, STFU!

R66 You drink too much at parties, Calvin.

The Lazenby boy has soft, thick lips, a mouthwatering ass and VPL. Reminds me so much of Buck.

That's that Christmas party old Lucy went to, isn't it, r70? No wonder it's overexposed.

I wonder how that merger went. You know, the one the helmet headed woman had her fingers crossed for.

R72 Lucy from Idaho? Or did she die in Idaho?

Carol Lazenby told Beth about the Blu-ray. She’s furious; Conrad didn’t tell her first. He embarrassed her in front of a friend.

Lucinda Walsh was in this movie.

Is the novel worthwhile?

Is it more John Updike or Harold Robbins?

Neither r77. It is more Anne Tyler.

I guess given your choices it is more Updike.

It is a very good book.

Buck would never have appeared in a Harold Robbins novel.

I'm shocked even with streaming DVD/Blu-Rays are still a thing. I walked into this party and the owner's collection held pride of place.

Also, Calvin, we have to go to the Murrays on Saturday. I couldn’t get out of it. It’s Clark’s birthday. I bought him that Ordinary People Blu-Ray.

If Conrad had been her only son, would Beth have treated and felt the same about him? I wonder f she always had this dynamic with him or was it due to blaming Conrad for Buck’s death and or wishing he had died? HELP ME

r82, Calvin and Conrad made it clear to the shrink that she had never shown him much affection.

Beth was a mother from hell.

Calvin tells the doctor that everyone things Beth and Buck were alike but it was really she and Conrad. (they were the only two who didn't cry at the funeral.)

I guess Beth sees all her negative traits in Conrad and it turns off.

R83, thank you. My mother was Beth as well, to all of us kids. Although we aren’t WASPS.

Why are gay men so fascinated with Beth?

She embodies rejection.

You all need to come to my new brunch place called You Can't Save French Toast.

Both Beth and Conrad Are played authentically and are both anguish laden. Could another actor have played the father role in a way to would make the movie even better? I never understood why the parents were together or what brought them together, didn’t mesh for me.

Ann-Margaret was Robert Redford's first choice for Beth and she would have been much better than MTM.

I thought the father and son were too nice to Beth. If my mother was that awful I would have told her every single day. They really walked on eggshells with that fucking asshole.

I thought the casting of MTM was brilliant, she was absolutely amazing!

[quote]I thought the father and son were too nice to Beth. If my mother was that awful I would have told her every single day. They really walked on eggshells with that fucking asshole.

It's really important that you hurt me, isn't it?

Lucille Ball and Gale Gordon were Redford's first choice for Beth and Calvin.

[quote] The dirty truth at the heart of this movie is that some mothers find it impossible to love a child they bore. Not for a good reason. But they perceive a weakness and the child angers and repulses them for no fault of their own.

aka Prince Charles Syndrome.

Are you a WASP r92?

True, R83, but Buck was her firstborn so that Conrad as second best was always there.

Where the waitresses are cold and judgmental before you even sit at the table, R89.

But the place settings are FAB-U-LOuS.

Buck never would have approved that cover.

Raging Bull, The Elephant Man, Coal Miner's Daughter & Tess were all much better than this.

Not to mention Melvin and Howard, Resurrection, Inside Moves, The Great Santini, 9 to 5, The Stuntman, Gloria, The Shining, Carny, Heart Beat, Private Benjmain, Popeye, Bad Timing, Altered States, Crusin', Xanadau, Can't Stop the Music and a host of others.

I had the Screen World from that year.

R101, I’m looking at your movie list from back then, and all that comes to mind is that they don’t make ‘em like they used to. Streaming services and action/comic book films have eviscerated Hollywood.

I thought the same thing in looking at that list. So many great movies released in a single year.

[quote] Raging Bull, The Elephant Man, Coal Miner's Daughter & Tess were all much better than this. Not to mention Melvin and Howard, Resurrection, Inside Moves, The Great Santini, 9 to 5, The Stuntman, Gloria, The Shining, Carny, Heart Beat, Private Benjmain, Popeye, Bad Timing, Altered States, Crusin', Xanadau, Can't Stop the Music and a host of others.

LOL.

Lee Remick would've been better as Beth. She would've given a more polished performance.

Was Donna Pescow considered, she would have been a revelation? Another example of Hollywood casting directors not thinking 'outside of the box'.

I don’t think there is any legitimate criticism that can be launched at Mary Tyler Moore’s performance.

At her hair, sure, but the Princess Diana look was very popular amongst well heeled suburban mothers.

Watched this Bluray last night. Great to see this film again after all these years. Agree that it needed more extras. Forgot Fredric Lehne was in this and in a speedo.

Has the film degenerated into a camp classic?

R110 No. It is a boring as it was back in 1980.

Give me my fucking Oscar.

Tess is my favourite film from 1980 (although technically it's really from '79) and I know there is still resentment that Raging Bull lost both Picture and Director to Ordinary People, but 1980 really was a strong year in film. I think Ordinary People, Raging Bull and Tess are all deserving. The three of them have stood the test of time.

As for Best Actress, I love both Moore and Spacek, but Burstyn was incredible in Resurrection.

Would Buck have whacked off or jerked off while fucking his fat wife?

Buck never would've fucked the Lazenby boy.

R95- The first choice for the role of Beth's mother was Zara Cully aka Mother Jefferson.

R106- Bonnie Bartlett as Barbara Thorndike as Beth Jarrett would have been better than ANY of the choices mentioned here

I swear, every thread on this board degenerates into a Golden Girls discussion. Why?

I showed my wet nearly-nude body in front of M. Emmet Walsh for TWENTY TAKES!

Of course, a few years later, I had to bare-ass it in front of Oscar winner Maureen Stapleton, and she wasn't half as handsy as Emmet! And you should've seen how sexual Ann-Margret got with me during her raunchy audition. Didn't she know she was playing the mother?

When I said I had a #MeToo moment, this wasn't what I meant!

Sada Thompson on Family nailed the WASPy, emotionally distant, hateful mother much better than MTM did. She was a much better dramatic actress than MTM.

R119- What about Sada Thompson as the mother in Ordinary People?

Sada looked too old and matronly to play Beth. Redford wanted someone who telegraphed younger like MTM, Ann-Margaret or Lee Remick.

No way! Sada was a frump. The Beth character was a WASP “glamour girl” with her thin figure, perfect hair, perfectly understated wardrobe, and perfectly frigid manners.

The underrated Joan Hackett would've made a terrific Beth.

How about Esther Rolle as Beth Jarrett-

Buck is dead

Esther Rolle as Beth Jarrett- DAMN

DAMN

DAMN

[quote] Bad Timing

God, no. Terrible film.

MTM was PERFECT as Beth Jarrett. End of discussion. As Calvin's mentions in that pivotal scene when Buck died, all her love went with him. She tried to love both Conrad and Calvin but she just couldn't it was dead and buried. As I get older, I can see how that could happen. And given the fact that MTM had just lost a son I can't imagine how she was able to play this role.

Sada was good but I mean come on.

R126- That scene makes me want to watch the entire series again.

In fact I think I will.

Kate Lawrence was the definitive detached WASP mother.

I saw OP in the mid-90s in my early teens (my father recommended I see it) and thought MTM’s outfits were very mumsy. In retrospect, she actually looked pretty chic, as far as a woman tanking on the mantle of a cosy bourgeois lawyer’s wife can be. Her black suit at the Murrays’ party looked great.

Also adored Mrs Murray’s satin pyjama suit as she made her “grand entrance”.

Mona Croft was great as Beth’s equally cunty mother.

R126, MTM's son passed away AFTER she finished making Oridnary People. I think she said she would not have been able to do it had it happened before.

I stand corrected. I thought it was before.

How good are the bonus features of this DVD? Worthwhile?

The clothes selected for MTM to wear as Beth were very accurate for that era and socioeconomic world. The women around the WASPY country club my parents belonged to in the 1980s dressed exactly like her… understated and never obviously rich, but with the message that plenty of money had been spent on at least part of any outfit if you paid attention to the details.

Beth’s look for this scene is a perfect example. Most likely the beige gaberdine slacks and suede jacket were high ticket items from Armani, but then the sweater would have “just” been from Pringle of Scotland, and finally the white shirt only from Talbots.

Ann-Marget would have made Beth a touch more human. And she grew up on the North Shore of Chicago.

R134 Beth wore the suede jacket in the scene when Conrad walks in on her in Buck’s room. From the back it has some blousing and cuffs and kind of looked like a tan Members Only jacket. I thought “surely not!”. But from the front it has a fully buttoned military look.

It’s a very carefully chosen garment for Beth and for that scene.

How different would OP have been with Carol Burnett as Beth? Serious question. Carol did some fine dramatic work in Friendly Fire and Beatrice: The Life of the Party, and she could've tapped what was most likely a bitter side based on her troubled upbringing. And no, I would never suggest Harvey Korman as Calvin LOL.

R137 It would've been neat, but not the same.

The genius of Redford casting Mary Tyler Moore was to put the audience in precisely the same emotional spot as Conrad and Calvin Jarrett. They would recognize that face and that voice in an instant, and feel a warm familiarity. But then they'd be wrenched by the character's odd coldness, and spend the rest of the movie saying "Something's off here. I'll keep waiting and hoping. Surely she'll be the sweet woman I expect her to be. After all, I know she has it in her to be warm and relatable!" Which is exactly what Conrad and Calvin are supposed to be feeling the whole time.

R137 (continued)

And Carol Burnett was known for comedy, but she had already done dramatic work, as you say. People would've said "Ah, there's Carol, doing a serious role this time." The surprise would've been spoiled.

R134 you are so far off on the clothes. This is the North Shore in Chicago in the late 70's early 80's. It was Marshall Fields. All the way.

R140 Also, Armani? In Chicago in 1980? Not hardly.

The Jarretts drove Oldsmobiles and shopped at Marshall Fields and JC Penney. No one in Lake Forest was wearing Armani in 1980.

Beatrice Arthur as Maude as Beth Jarrett-

God’ll get you for that Conrad!

R141- One of those cars was an Oldsmobile 98 Regency which was a luxury car in 1980. She would NOT have shopped at JC Penney.

[quote]The Jarretts drove Oldsmobiles and shopped at Marshall Fields

Beth was carrying a bag from Marshall Field's when she and Carol criscrossed on the escalators at the mall. She put it on Conrad's bed. Two new shirts.

Apparently R140 and R141 wandered over from the sad little street where Jeannine Pratt’s parents lived… so far west that it bordered I-94.

No way, no how was any Lake Forest housewife like Beth Jarrett shopping at JC Penny. Her husband was a tax attorney earning the equivalent in 2022 dollars of at the very least $500k to $600k a year. She shopped mainly at Neiman Marcus and when at Marshall Field’s it was only on the floor carrying top designers or it was to buy something for Cal or Conrad.

As for Armani, 1979 was the exact year he was introduced to the American market after being picked up by Neiman’s, Saks, Bergdorf Goodman and other high end department stores. The line was an immediate hit with women all over the country just like Beth who had plenty of money and liked high quality, but understated clothes. Then in 1980 Armani exploded into the consciousness of mainstream America when he provided the wardrobe for Richard Gere in American Gigolo.

Both Lee Remick & Natalie Wood were DEVESTATED when they lost the part of Beth to Mary Tyler Moore - a sitcom actress

Imagine TWO Oscar nominated film actresses losing out to a sitcom actress. Back then it was UNHEARD of to have casting like that.

Would Beth have worn this outfit?

R146 Natalie could easily get over it. Just take a nice slow sail with Bob on Chris Walken's boat.

R148 out of the two actresses, Natalie felt the most betrayed. Because she gave Robert Redford his big break when he was a struggling actor and she was a big star

So for her to be rejected out of hand like that, was really painful and she never got over it,

Natalie sounds like she was a petulant entitled diva. That type of behavior wouldn't float with Redford.

R6- That would be wonderful. Like something out of Dickens.

[quote]Natalie could easily get over it. Just take a nice slow sail with Bob on Chris Walken's boat.

The Splendor was Natalie and R.J.'s boat. Hence its name.

Was MTM just seen as a sitcom actress pre-OP? I thought she was well-respected in the industry, and not just because she had two highly successful sitcoms.

Being a TV star and being a Movie Star back then was kept pretty separate right? TV was looked down on until The Sopranos era

I always thought that people such as Mary Tyler Moore were industry A list, even back then. After all, she and Grant oversaw a production company with some well-respected series. Other big stars at the time like Henry Winkler or Jacyln Smith or Michael Landon were purely TV products, but MTM seemed to transcend that TV ghetto. Wasn't Lee Remick doing TV at that point as well?

R138 captured perfectly why MTM was genius casting. You keep waiting for Beth to snap out of it and be the loving mom we all want her to be. By the end you realize that's what Calvin was doing as well. And poor Conrad just assumed he only had himself to blame.

Re where Beth would have shopped: isn't there a scene of Beth in a mall? Do we get a glimpse of which stores she went to?

Per IMDB, that scene was shot at Northbrook Court Mall… where the sole department store tenant is Neiman Marcus. Which, not surprisingly, blows the theory that crazy poster at R141 had earlier about Beth only shopping at JC Penny right out of the water.

Tim Hutton had a cute twinky body on him back then. Looked great in his speedo.

After the divorce, Beth was on assistance and shopped at thrift stores.

That was my high school choir in the opening scene(s), although I didn't join it until five years after the film was released. But the choir director in the film was my director, years later.

Buck would never have been in choir

Dinah Manoff was the standout part of the movie. Her energy elevates the movie, even though it's only for a short period of time.

Welcome to DL, Ms Manoff.

So the 2022 remake is ready for diverse casting!

Who's been cast DL?

How has the story changed?

Was Buck becoming Barbara and he drowned herself rather than face...whatever?

Was Conrad the adopted Enrique?

I thought at that point, Armani in 1980 was more the domain of American Gigolos?

If Beth were a touch less imaginative I could imagine her with a Burberry trench, though it would be useless in a Chicago that’s too cold for golfing.

I also loved Manoff in the movie, she was doing what Beth wanted Conrad to do, pretend to be okay despite being utterly miserable inside.

Would Michele Lee have been too young to play Beth? I could easily see her in the role.

Where my North Shore mom shopped in the ‘70s

Lord & Taylor, Northbrook Court

Neiman Marcus, Northbrook Court

Marshal Fields, Lake Forest, Hawthorn Center or State Street

Saks, Old Orchard or Michigan Ave.

Bonwit Teller, Michigan Ave.

Garnett’s, Highland Park

A place whose name I don’t recall in Plaza del Lago, Wilmette (old time NS residents know this area as no man’s land).

My clothes were from everyplace from Saks to Sears, but mainly Fields

The movie hit the clothes and the cars exactly right.

I love this debate about a fictional characters shopping choices.

Beth seems to me like a Ralph Lauren lady. (I suspect Ralph Lauren then was much higher end than it has become today)

Who were the designers for females at that time at high end department stores? Like sportswear..

There is no way this bitch wore Armani- or any of her clothes in this film were Armani.

My favorite film in the movie is when Beth goes into a catatonic state while staring at a red dress in Neiman Marcus while clutching some Christmas package to her non existent bosom. The sales clerk looks like a real cunt!

^^^^

Can I find this for you in YOUR SIZE?

Oh no..no no..no.

Then get the hell out of my department you uptight bitch!

R169 here. Mom says she was one of the very early Ralph Lauren devotees.

[quote]Per IMDB, that scene was shot at Northbrook Court Mall… where the sole department store tenant is Neiman Marcus.

[quote]Marshall Field's, Lake Forest, Hawthorn Center or State Street

I guess they were just pretending Marshall Field's was in Northbrook mall. How...inaccurate. Or did I really not see a Marshall Field's bag?

That was a green Marshalls Fields bag (with TWO SHIRTS) that that nasty bitch THREW on Conrad's bed.

She never would have thrown those shirt's in BUCK'S bed!

Fields went in after the movie was made. In what was an original tenant’s space, Sears. Who never fit in at a very high end mall.

No... wait a minute... ha, did I take trig? Huh... anyway, I bought you two shirts and the Ordinary People Blu-Ray DVD, they're on your bed.

I wonder if Beth was short for Elizabeth. I guarantee nobody EVER called her Betty or Liz.

Give her the Goddamned Blu Ray!

Calvin? Why are you crying? Can I, uh... can I get you something? Maybe your copy of the Ordinary People Blu-Ray DVD?

Calvin "Cal" Jarrett: He just wants to know that you don't hate him.

Beth Jarrett: Hate him! How could I hate him? Mothers don't hate their sons! Is that what he told you? You see how you believe everything he tells you? And you can't do the same for me, you can't! GOD I DON'T KNOW WHAT ANYONE WANTS FROM ME ANYMORE!

Ward: Beth, we don't want anything from you; Audrey, Cal, Connie and Me, we just want you to be happy with your copy of the Ordinary People Blu-Ray DVD.

[r82], I took a film class when I was attending USC in the late 1980s, and our professor was saying that in an interview Judith Guest said she did have a backstory for Beth. She said Beth absolutely hated Conrad, and had from the moment she knew she was pregnant with him. She had her one child, and the three of them made the perfect family. Conrad’s (or any other child’s) presence fucked it all up. It was nothing personal, but, again, Beth had very little that was personal to give.

Conrad: God, I loved him. It's not fair. You just do one wrong thing.

Dr. Berger: And what was the one wrong thing you did? [pause] You know. [pause] You know.

Conrad: I hung on. I hung on to my copy of the Ordinary People Blu-Ray DVD instead of giving it away as a gift like I was supposed to.

Dr. Berger: So you felt great. You brought home a copy of the Ordinary People Blu-Ray DVD and everything was hunky dory. Okay?

Conrad "Con" Jarrett: You're the doctor.

Or as Lillian Gish called it while reading the nomination at the 1979 Oscars, 'Ordinary Picture". Thata girl!

She almost did, R184 but she caught herself but it's still classic.

Ralph Lauren was overstated understated-ness at that point. The clothes, the shopping, the Oldsmobile and all the other cultural signifiers were perfect for that time and place--I had grew-up in an analogous part of the Midwest and they totally got it (we even had Field's owned store). Beth might have bought the boys' clothes at JC Penney when they were younger---good value for stuff they would outgrow, but she'd never shop there for herself. The look of the film also captured the late 70s, which frankly was like living in a tv movie---not classy like the 50s in NYC or wacky like the 60s in SF or LA. The Ice Storm (made over a decade later) has much of the same look and even has an ugly but high end sporty Buick Rivera. A few years later, they'd have Volvo instead, but in those days, Swedish cars were for non-conformists (esp. Saabs).

Beth not being attached to Conrad was novel for its time. Mothers usually were heroines. Fathers were the baddies and if a mother was otherwise, she was Italian or Jewish and more intrusive than mean spirited. Lee Remick might have been good in the role and might have brought a softness that MTM lacked and a bit more intelligence. Natalie Wood was settling into her tv movie phase and would have seemed more like a tv actress than MTM; she also didn't come off as a WASP.

I can't believe how captivated I am about this discussion of what a wealthy suburban mom in 1980 Chicago would have worn.

Armani--no. Still an up and coming although hot new label and at this point it has a somewhat decadent vibe.

Calvin Klein--likely no. Most famous for jeans and still probably too new and hip for a conservative wife old enough to have a teen.

Chanel--maybe, but more likely she has the accessories than the clothes. One or two suits.

Gucci--same as Armani. Maybe the accessories.

Oscar de la Renta--hell yeah, at least for evening wear and black tie events. Same with Dior and maybe Halston.

Yves Saint Laurent--doubtful. Maybe some basic pieces.

For everyday, I'm thinking she had a mix of expensive pieces from more traditional labels like St. John and Galanos, and practical basics she bought in high end department stores like Neiman Marcus and Lord & Taylor (which I think expanded to Chicago right around this time).

^ Meant to add Ralph Lauren to that last sentence. Beth definitely wore Ralph Lauren.

Bill Blass

Halston

Lord & Taylor had been in Chicago for awhile. They already were in Detroit by then. She would have gone there to get her little black dress and perhaps to buy shirts for Calvin.

In the ‘60s Beth would have worn Bonnie Cashin, one of my mom’s favorites. Lord and Taylor opened their Northbrook Court store in March of 1976. I think they opened in Oak Brook and Water Tower Place at that time as well.

Natalie Wood was warm and lovable on film. Movie audiences sensed her vulnerability and wanted to protect her. She was delicate and beautiful. Her public persona, too, was of a very loving and devoted mother. This worked against her for the Beth Jarrett role. Maybe she could have pulled it off brilliantly, but not with Robert Redford, as director.

Natalie gave Robert Redford a big break when he started out in films. She was an established star. Professionally, they were close; they made a few films together. Offscreen, they were friends. This could’ve been why Redford didn’t cast her. His ability as a director could’ve been compromised.

Your mom has good taste, R191--Bonnie Cashin was fab. That reminds me, Beth definitely had some Hermes pieces and a Cashin-designed Coach bag.

Beth would have also worn Anne Klein

R38 that concept is so foreign to me. Damn if my mother isn’t flawed, but if any of her children were hurting, she was hurting right along with them. There’s some expression like “you’re only as happy as your least happy child.” At least until you go senile.

The DL posts and OP references amuse me to no end but still what’s up with the obsession here? Honestly it’s good but not THAT good.

Did you all have mothers like this?

If so I’m so sorry (seriously).

She would have owned some Butte Knits and perhaps some Dalton or James Kenrob.

Many people on this thread have a very incorrect perception about Armani womenswear. It was NEVER considered decadent or showy… we aren’t talking about Versace or Yohji Yamamoto here.

The whole appeal with Armani, and why it was an immediate hit with both upscale career women and rich housewives when it first hit the States, was the soft color palettes with lots of ivory & beige and the relaxed, easy shapes of most of the pieces. It fit well on a fairly wide variety of body types and was classic but with a slight nod to unusual silhouettes like race car jackets that gave it a very chic look. It was never an avant-garde label when it came to womenswear.

Armani was totally the type of thing that would have attracted a Beth Jarrett type when presented to her by a saleswomen somewhere like Neiman’s… “this beige cashmere and suede jacket is from a new Italian designer we are carrying, do you like it?” And the next thing you know Beth is walking out of the store having purchased it.

For men, Armani was a totally different story because he applied those same aspects of the soft, easy fit to pants and blazers and only a very fashion forward man would have been ready for that in 1980. Cal would never have been in Armani at that time, but Beth would have loved it from the get go.

R195, I don't think it's necessarily that so many people have a mother like Beth as it is a lot of people can understand the pain of being rejected by a parent or another loved one, especially people who frequent a gay message board or other marginalized spaces. I'm sure a lot of people around here, for example, had a loving mom, dad, grandma, uncle, etc. until they came out as gay (or married the wrong race, or spoke out against Trump). Or know someone who had that experience. And maybe, hopefully, that person came around and finally accepted or even embraced it, but the pain in the meantime was still brutal.

She was a cold bitch, don't try to sugar coat Beth. She was meant to be portrayed as unredeemable, R298. That's what made her distinctive as a charcater in her time.

Assuming you mean me, R199, I'm not sugarcoating Beth. I'm saying you don't necessarily need to have someone just like her as a mom to empathize.

R197, I think that came a couple years later. Armani launched his US label in 1979 or so and it was VERY fashion forward (modeled by the likes of Gia Carangi no less!), and that image was further heightened by the association with American Gigolo. This was not clothing for middle aged midwestern conservative wealthy women, not at first. By 84 or so he'd softened a bit into a more appealing look for that crowd.

R187 that’s an interesting list but you may be conflating the Chanel and Gucci of 1980 with what you think about them today.

Chanel was dead, dead, dead in 1980 with virtually no clothing business left at all and only surviving thanks to the highly lucrative fragrances. In fact, it wasn’t even easy to find Chanel clothing anywhere in America as non of the high end department stores carried it and this was way before the expansion of their own boutiques. It wasn’t until 1983 that the Wertheimer family finally persuaded Karl Lagerfeld to try and revive the dying Chanel fashion business which he did spectacularly by the late 1980s.

Gucci in 1980 was long past it Jackie O heyday and almost headed for Pierre Cardin territory due to bad licensing for cheap products. Dawn Mello would turn it around in the early 1990s and hire a then unknown designer named Tom Ford to help her.

Oscar and Galanos were way to frou frou and glamorous for Beth. She may well have worn some early Calvin, he was just known for beautiful sportswear with great fabrics at the time. There was nothing too trendy or controversial about him yet at all.

Not conflating at all, R201. Chanel accessories were still alive and well in the 70s (that's why I said she likely had some accessories but not clothes). Gucci had a decadent/tacky vibe at the time. Again, maybe she had some accessories.

What about the other Klein (Anne)? She was big circa 1980.

And Ferragamo bags and shoes - they always read pretty WASPy/Conservative. And on the less expensive side Coach.

Absolutely they should have been driving a Volvo. That’s the ultimate “we have money buy want to pretend we’re not showy” car.

I think the poster nailed it with Anne Klein.

Ralph Lauren, Anne Klein, and I liked the Pringle of Scotland mention above.

Armani? Give me a fucking break. Did you see what she wore in the film? It was American Sportswear.

Armani may have been understated- but Beth did not wear his style.

Volvos came later. In 1980, they were bought by law school deans and people like that. A tax attorney might be thinking about a Mercedes, but not a Volvo.

Ferragamo is a likely yes. Not sure about Anne Klein--I suspect even then she catered more to a middle/lower middle class crowd trying to look higher end. Or maybe I'm unfairly associating it then with what Donna Karen/DKNY became later.

R205 and yet he drove an Oldsmobile? That seems a miscalculation.

BMWs in the 70s and early 80s actually had a very preppy vibe. So that was an option too.

Where were Buck and Conrad boating/sailing anyway? Lake Michigan? I grew up in Lake Forest and teenage boys did NOT go boating on the lake by themselves! That would have been unthinkable!

You might be thinking of Anne Klein II.

The ownership of an Olds was discussed on another thread. Less pretentious than a Caddy, but more prestige than a Chevy or Pontiac and usually better constructed. Buick and Olds were the cars for professionals---more distinctive than a Mercury (which was just a dolled-up Ford) or a Chrysler ((just a fancy Dodge). Ten years later, they'd buy a European sedan but not in 1980.

The reference to Armani was this specific jacket which was similar to his driving jackets at the time. I don’t think anyone said Beth would wear “head to toe” Armani… she wouldn’t wear any designer head to toe.

She certainly wouldn’t have had “one or two Chanel suits” as R187 did mention after the accessories. The only people wearing Chanel in 1980 were 87 year old ladies living in Neuilly. Nobody was even wearing the accessories then as all that only came back with Karl post 1983/84.

Gucci did still make high quality shoes and bags she might have bought. And I could see her owning a simple piece of Bottega Veneta.

We know she loved her beige Hartmann luggage!

Did Conrad go to Lake Forest College? Nate Birkis (sp.?) did! 1994 graduate!

^^Berkus

[quote]I swear, every thread on this board degenerates into a Golden Girls discussion. Why?

I blame FOLLIES.

Can you download blu rays like digital

When they are at that party gathered around the piano singing, "What I Did For Love" I kept thinking, if only they were singing something from FOLLIES.

R211 conservative wives of successful tax attorneys in 1980 had a Chanel suit in the closet for when they have to attend some political or country club event and schmooze with the older and even more conservative wives of elected officials or firm partners. Beth probably had a more sleeker version than the boxy heavy tweed classic Chanel style, but she had one.

Did the cast get along?

There is a youtube TV academy video where MTM says Redford asked to meet her and explained that she was his first choice for the role since he wanted to explore the dark side of America's sweetheart. She then jokes how he then proceeded to audition every actress in Hollywood. (hence Ann-Margret auditioning with Hutton.)

I believe Judith Guest at one time was going to call the book "Everybody Loves Beth."

Beth is supposed to be perky and likeable to everyone but Conrad. At the Murray's party she's very popular and happy. (on the outside.)

Hutton's #metoo accusations were found to be fake and thrown out of court.

And I know why Anne Klein never came to the BlueRay launch… because she was too busy going to goddamn Spain and goddamn Portugal!

If I recall correctly, in the novel Beth is the hit of the party when she sings "Broadway Baby."

r218 they all spoke highly of Moore when she died.

Hutton though found out that Redford had instructed her not to be too friendly with Hutton so to keep him off balance and really feel unliked.

He tells the story of arriving on the set one day and Mary gave him a warm enthusiastic greeting and then said oops. He didn't know until the film was done that Moore had slipped up and forgot to be coldish to him. (She told him when they were done.)

Calvin does say "everybody loves Beth" to Berger so maybe that was the title of the book at one point.

When I was growing up, I got the sense that my mom wasn't too fond of me. Being effeminate, I, like Conrad, ruined the notion of the perfect family unit. I also had a learning disability, very similar to what's been described about Chris Rock in the past week.

Now, at age 74, I think she feels very, very guilty about it, and she goes out of her way to try to be warm, and loving. Maybe that was Beth's trajectory. Although, I never had a brother who died, so.. I dunno.

The book does end with (spoiler)

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

Beth moving returning from her brother's and slowly building a relationship with Conrad (but not Calvin.)

oops drop the "moving"^^

We would have been all right if there hadn’t been any Blue-Ray release. But you can’t handle Blue-Rays. You need everything neat and easy. I don’t know. Maybe you can’t love anybody. It was so much about videotapes. When videotape died, it was as if you buried all your love with it, and I don’t understand that.

Surprising that MTM, and recently Redford and Dinah Manhof all had sons who died.

R227 that actually makes me very happy to know. My reaction surprises me. After all this time, I'm glad to find that out.

My mom was like Beth; she had an odd obsession with my older brother who was an asshole.

Our father died when we were all just out of the toddler stage and it was devastating. My parents were really in love and all of a sudden, my mom was thrust into this world where she had to get a job and raise three kids. People stepped up in that she was able to keep the house. As a child, I couldn't comprehend the enormity of that.

I suppose I was the Conrad in the family; Ordinary People came on ...I think it was called The Move Channel back then... I walked into our family TV room and my mom had just seen it (I hadn't) and she turned BEET red; she saw herself in Beth and knew that I would see it too.

She died a few years ago. Ironically, we weren't able to do a proper memorial because of COVID. We may now that things are changing a bit. We may not.

I visited her in the hospital before she died, it was a few weeks before the shut down. The subject of my brother came up and she said 'he's no good.'

I thought damn; this is some deathbed repentance stuff.

I don't have a Blu Ray player, but I do have a DVD player. I'll pop this in the next time I find the DVD.

R232 fascinating that your mom felt so exposed by a movie. A thing created by an uninterested third party made her physically turn red.

I'm curious- as she was about to die, she said your brother was no good. But did she tell you that she loved and appreciated you? Or was badmouthing your brother supposed to make that clear?

Glad it made you happy r231

R234 it did because, I mean, she wiilfully goes to sit by Conrad outside, and is concerned that he's warm enough. But beyond that first step of going to sit by her son, she really just has no idea how to handle anything. If she really THAT bad, she just would've stayed I'm the house.

MTM never liked when people said bad things about Beth. She felt Beth was deeply troubled and hurt and unable to break out of it.

The book also has a nice scene (the final scene actually) where Conrad goes to apologize to Lazenby for shutting him out so long. It's an interesting ending. Conrad reconnects with everyone but Calvin now can't accept Beth anymore.

R236 That is interesting about her husband. I understand when a couple loses a child, it's very, very hard to keep things together. I guess maybe once Calvin finally saw what he considered her cruelty to Conrad, he could never really forgive her, even if she'd realized the folly of her ways and was trying to mend things. But that is an ok ending. To me, a mother being estranged forever from her son is much sadder than a couple getting a divorce and starting over with someone else.

MTM/Beth is kinda like Ethel Merman and "Mama" Rose Hovick. One of the reasons Merman played Rose so well was that she saw absolutely nothing wrong with what she does in the play. "She did it out of love for her children." Later, actresses would apply actors studio/method analysis to the role, with varying degrees of success. But both MTM and Merman play the characters straightforward- they understand them to be right. And, that works.

Wow, if Natalie Wood had been cast she never would have died on that boat. She would have gotten better roles than Brainstorm

I loved this movie before I ever found you foul old queens and your incessant commentary on it, and I enjoy endlessly talking about it on here.

The only other Gay Movie I can think of that elicits this kind of broad love is maybe "Death Becomes Her."

R239 why are we foul?

R240 Most DLers are crude, profane, overinflated (both in ego and in saturated fats), vain, alcoholic sex maniacs. Some of the others are sober and frigid, but foul in sheer bitchiness.

But at least we know who and what we is.

The idea of Natalie Wood in this role is ridiculous. She was not the kind of performer who could take on different personas.

I think Natalie would have absolutely nailed it. Probably would have gotten her the oscar.

Yes. She could put it right next to her Hasty Pudding Worst Actress Award.

I don't know why everyone hates on Brainstorm. It wasn't THAT awful, other than Walken stinking up his scenes.

R229, that was hilarious! Thank you for the much needed laughter today.

I watched the Blu-Ray last night. It's been remastered, and some scenes look brand new, but you can still ultimately tell it's from 1980.

The details on the fabrics - MTM's sweaters, the seats in the Oldsmobile, the cloth napkins - shows a bit stronger with the remastering. And Timothy Hutton was never cuter!

Would I Magnin be a source? At that time and area of the country it was staid, reliable and quality. not as preppy, or flashy, as coastal cities. There would have been a mix of quality, passed down garments supplemented by Papagallo, Brooks Brothers, Ralph Lauren, Coach for bags.. Plain, Nothing flashy, muted colors and understated. And always appropriate for the occasion, like uniforms. Undergarments were black, nude and concealed. People held onto money and relied on clothes as somewhat utilitarian. Not fun or trendy.

ETA they’d buy kids basic clothes at Fields, but better quality for adults as they’d keep for years.

Conrad does have a classic JanSport backpack, and that brand was a lot newer in 1980.

[quote]There would have been a mix of quality, passed down garments supplemented by Papagallo, Brooks Brothers, Ralph Lauren, Coach for bags.. Plain, Nothing flashy, muted colors and understated.

Pappagallo "nothing flashy, muted, understated"? Mmm, nah.

Why is everyone trying to recast Beth?

Are you Elizabeth Montgomery/Natalie Wood/Lee Remick/Ann-Margret fans annoyed your hasbeen fave didn’t get the late career Oscar nom?

R218 There were no reports of cast behaviour during the filming of the film so I'd take that as it was a good productive working environment.

And let's face it there have never been any bad reports on the sets of any of the films that Robert Redford directed (or starred in). Same with Mary Tyler Moore, Donald Sutherland or Timothy Hutton.

I believe reports in recent years in relation to Hutton and younger girl(s) did not happen on film sets.

I don’t understand why Beth was laughing it up and partying after Buck died. She should have been in permanent mourning like Victoria after Albert’s death.

So Hutton wasn’t passed around among the men working on the film?

R255 Certainly not. Redford asked the cast and crew to be a little aloof with Hutton on set, so he would feel as confused and isolated as the character. He did play tennis with Redford and Judd Hirsch several times, and formed what he calls a "lifelong friendship" with MTM.

But no, he wasn't molested on set. Robert Redford doesn't do that to his actors.

[quote] Robert Redford doesn't do that to his actors.

I doubt Redford would be aware of anyone connected to the production giving Hutton some sexual release.

R254, it was an act.

THE BEST COSTUME IN THIS ENTIRE FILM:

Mary's nightgown during the French Toast scene!

It is perfectly tailored and has those little lines on it..

For some reason that always stands out-

[quote]THE BEST COSTUME IN THIS ENTIRE FILM: Mary's nightgown during the French Toast scene

Beth would NEVER be seen in a nightgown at breakfast!

Buck wouldn’t have MADE a Buck reference!

Yes a robe must be donned with slippers before feet hit the ground from the bed! There are expectations dammit!!, standards people, there must be standards or it will all come tumbling down.

I’m the maid Beth fired because I couldn’t dust right.

Fuck that bitch.

Faye Dunaway as Joan Crawford as Beth Jarrett

Notice Beth didn't make the infamous French Toast with Texas Toast or even regular bread. It appeared to be made with traditional French bread, or possibly even brioche.

Just past the broken plate scene and all I can think of is Madame Field as Nora Walker as Beth Jarrett.

Was real life Buck gay?

r267 His obit (he died of cancer at 53 in 2013) is a lovingly written tribute but makes no mention of a spouse/partner. Make of that what you may.

That’s so sad r268. He was young

Beth likely got Conrad's shirts from Marshall Field's at Market Square, which was there from 1931 to 2008.

I could see the outdoor Market Square being more Beth's style than the indoor Northbrook. She could stroll around in the gray, cold Chicago air, her tits getting chillier and chillier, mournfully looking in windows yet not seeing anything but Buck's face ...

R252, Elizabeth Montgomery never would have BEEN cast as Beth, because she wasn't in the running.

Natalie Wood was considered. Lee Remick, Ann-Margret, and MTM were the finalists. Timothy Hutton said the only audition he did was with Ann-Margret as Beth.

Lee Remick ran sobbing off to Europe and into seclusion when she lost the part, poor dear. She would have been great. But she couldn't honestly have expected to go from TV-movie dreck like "Torn Between Two Lovers" one year into Redford's prestige directorial debut the next.

The dirty secret around this film is that MTM fucked Robert Redford to get the part, and their affair continued during filming.

MTM wrote about an on-set affair in her autobiography but never named the man. But it was pretty obvious.

Lee would have been great . She was so warm in real life . The role of Beth may have tainted her image

I wonder if Lee and her bestie Stephen Sondheim got together to hate-watch MTM.

Beth was a cunt.

MTM was so good in the part because she was basically playing herself. Unlike Conrad, her son succeeded in killing himself.

that's sad

It’s sad that a few on the DL fetishize this relic of a cliched piece of shit.

[quote]Buck would have been served crepes that Beth painstakingly prepared along with an assortment of fresh berries and a soft cheese.

That she would have made Conrad prepare R35.

I'm finally reading the book after all these years (I love the film and I remember it being filmed in my hometown).