Why are tragic beauties like Rita Hayworth, Gene Tierney, Vivien Leigh, and Hedy Lamarr not gay icons?

It's Hedley!

Hedy Lamar was too smart. Gays like their dead divas to be vulnerable, naive victims.

R2 Didn't she steal a necklace because she was a klepto?

Quite big tits.

I think Rita Hayworth is a mini-gay icon, not a major one.

You can’t force the gays to make boring bitches “icons”!

Why isn't Barbara Stanwyck a gay icon? She was ugly, had an over the top personality, and was a lesbian allegedly.

Too beautiful OP. Old gay divas are usually the not-pretty-enough women with a lot of balls.

R7 Because she thought gay men were sissies and had no use for them.

Gene Tierney is definitely iconic to me.

R8 Then how do you explain Joan Crawford? Considered the most beautiful woman in the world during her heyday at MGM.

Which is worse: Stanwyck hating gay men or Hepburn pretending she didn't think gay men existed?

R12 What are you talking about? She brought up homosexuality in this interview with Dick Cavett and said it's a natural reaction to overpopulation.

Oh, great. A devotee of the "Why is X so unappreciated???" cult is now the new "Why isn't X a gay icon" queen.

Grow a pair, Madame.

Or one, anyway.

Didn't Hepburn say during the making of Suddenly, Last Summer that she didn't understand it and had to have someone explain it to her? And she claimed afterwards that she didn't believe gay people really existed.

R11 she looks like a drag queen. How many straight men idolized Joan Crawford as a great beauty like they did, say, Marilyn Monroe? The love of Joan seems to come mainly from women and gay men

"Why, in New Englaahnd, a little slap and tickle betwixt the boys was pefectly nohmal, Dick! Never a thought that one would terhm it, 'queeh"."

R16 I'm not talking about the 1950s. I'm talking about Joan in the 30s and even the 40s when she was considered a ravishing beauty. There's a reason every other actress new on the block was compared to Joan in terms of beauty and glamour, hence Bette Davis' inferiority complex. Marilyn came out during one of the worst periods for women when audiences (male typically) only appreciated you if you were a blonde, voluptuous sex doll.

Even when younh Joan's features were prominent and large, like a man's. I'm not saying she wasn't striking but she was never a beauty, she wasn't feminine looking.

I don't know what you mean by worst period for women, small voluptuous women with delicate features and fair skin and hair has always been the feminine ideal. Marilyn had it to a T.

I personally love Vivian Leigh

R19 She might not be beautiful to you but beauty standards are subjective and were certainly different back then. There's a reason she was the favorite actress of George Hurrell to photograph. Keep in mind that Norma Shearer, who isn't well regarded today as a beauty, was also considered one back in the 1930s. The androgynous look which Crawford, Garbo, and Dietrich all exhibited was the standard for beauty and also why Crawford was the model for the Evil Queen in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. It's like how in the 1920s, women all kept short hair and strapped down their breasts.

Also Joan must have been beautiful to have slept with as many men as she did. In contrast, when Bette tried to get with Joan's men like Franchot Tone and Glenn Ford, she was rejected. Joan's first husband also noted that Bette was not a beauty at all.

The 50s was a terrible period for female roles. The women's pictures of the 30s/40s were pretty much gone by then. Especially if you were an aging actress which is why so many resorted to TV like Loretta Young and Barbara Stanwyck. Davis pretty much retired during the 50s after a few stinkers failed to live up to All About Eve and Hepburn would take long breaks as well during this period and didn't really make her comeback until the late 60s. And fair hair has not always been the "feminine ideal" as you call it, especially when you consider that when Hedy Lamarr made her American debut, women all over America dyed their hair black to look like her. Joan Bennett being the most famous example who ditched the blonde. And most of the screen beauties from that era, like Gene Tierney, Loretta Young, Vivien Leigh, Linda Darnell, etc. were all brunettes.

R20 Strange that you love her so much but can't spell her name correctly.

R12, kind of weird for Stanwyck to hate gays but marry one!

R23 It was studio mandated because both of their sexualities were heavily under question. Apparently Robert Taylor was really fay offscreen.

Because they aren't campy enough. They need more camp classics in their filmographies to be considered gay icons

I know Ingrid Bergman isn't considered a camp icon but I've always found her acting to be super campy. Her performance in Gaslight is just one full camp riot. Also in Joan of Arc and A Matter of Time, the movie she did with Liza. Many of her emotional scenes in general have me in a laugh riot.

R25 What movies of Judy's are considered camp? Her early MGM works were definitely anything but and the only movie I can think of that would fit the bill would be her last one, I Could Go on Singing, where she's basically playing herself.

R25 If that was the only criteria, then Shelley Winters would beat everyone by a far mile. And Miriam Hopkins with her overblown and scene-stealing acting would be a close second.

Rita Hayworth was an alcoholic. Years later she was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, so her daughter backdated her Alzheimer’s to her drinking years. “Everyone thought my mother was drunk but she had Alzheimer’s.” No, your mother was drunk until she had Alzheimer’s.

R21 agree to disagree. If you put a pic of Garbo, Dietrich and Crawford up against a pic of Monroe, Tierney or Leigh I can tell you who the straight men are going to pick. Crawford's personal life is irrelevant, maybe she gave great blowjobs, maybe feminine beauties are too needy and androgynous women are more fun. Who knows.

R30 How is her personal life irrelevant? Because it doesn't fit your narrative that Joan was not desirable by men even though she clearly was? She was even shacking up with Kirk Douglas by the time he was becoming a big star and she was considerably older. Cliff Robertson was another co-star she had and there was a huge age gap between them.

It's funny how some gays can be even more shallow than straight men.

^ Dietrich was considered more of a sex symbol than Vivien Leigh, who was seen as a serious actress

R15 that was at least a dozen or more years earlier. She was a smart woman. She obviously thought about it, maybe read about it and came to her own conclusions.

R33 It sounds more like someone desperate to keep their image intact. She's friends with Tennessee Williams, George Cukor, and Spencer Tracy and she doesn't know what being gay is? Especially when people close to her were familiar with the fact that she always had another woman around her constantly?

I guess by the end of her life even she realized it would be ludicrous to pretend she didn't know that being gay was a thing so she changed her tune. But this is the same woman who would rather have been known as a homewrecker than as a lesbian. Wasn't her dead brother also gay?

You're not serious are you R31? You're defending the beauty of an actress while bemoaning how shallow it is that gay men find them more attractive? Beauty is shallow and whatever allure androgynous women have, it appeals more to gay men than straight men (you know, the ones who fuck women?) Sheesh.

If you don't believe me, show pics of these women to a straight man and ask him who is more beautiful.

Did she say that r9? She seemed to be good friends with Cesar Romero. Gays and lesbians have always had a separate culture. I can only imagine how separate it was during Stanwyck’s Hollywood tenure. Especially when you had to be closeted.

Another thing to note is that most of the great screen beauties were never considered good actresses because audiences couldn't get past their looks. Joan had that reputation in the 30s because of her extreme beauty which critics felt was the only thing carrying her acting career. That's also what insecure Bette would tell herself to feel better in comparison. Marlene, Jean, Rita, Hedy, Gene, Linda, and Liz are other examples of actresses who were dismissed as being purely ornamental and not being able to act because of how beautiful they were.

Vivien is the only exception I can think of probably because of how she completely captured all of America in her American debut as Scarlett. Ingrid would be another exception since she was also considered a great beauty of the screen, albeit a natural beauty who refused to get work done or wear a lot of makeup.

R35 I don't have an issue with gay men finding Joan attractive. I have an issue with you pretending that she wasn't considered beautiful and lacked sex appeal to straight men when that clearly wasn't the case at all. You just said yourself that straight men fuck women so it's a bit surprising then that a woman who fucked so many straight men wouldn't possess some allure for them. You can admit that any other women who so many men fucked would be considered desirable by them but with Joan you pretend that it had to be another factor involved, any other factor except that she was considered desirable by them.

And R32 is correct, that androgynous looking Dietrich was considered a great beauty and sex symbol as well. You don't become a sex symbol unless you hold some appeal for the opposite sex.

They are gay icons in circles of the 60+ year gays.

R36 I read it on a thread here on DL. But then again, even gay-friendly actresses back then were known to make homophobic remarks. I think in general Barbara seems the type who wouldn't tolerate weakness in anyone and considering how butch she was, clearly femme men wouldn't hold much appeal to her.

They weren't campy enough.

I didn't say she lacked sex appeal R38. Stop making up shit. I said she wasn't a great beauty, her personality and allure, whatever you want to call it, was her appeal and the reason she is a gay icon is because those things appeal to gay men more.

I'm sure she was attractive to straight men in ways that had nothing to do with her looks but overall delicate feminine beauties appeal to straight men more. That's it. Quit acting offended because your dead icon isn't jerk off material.

Lol sounds like you're pissed now. Stay pissed. For some reason you really can't stand the idea of Joan Crawford being considered beautiful but you can refute the truth as much as you want, it won't change matters. You can keep your Mommie Dearest caricature.

Beauty standards change and people's opinions of beauty differ. There's really nothing to debate. Theda Bara and Clara Bow were considered beautiful in the 1920s for instance.

Because she wasn't beautiful. Beautiful to a gay man, sure. Gay men are attracted to men so androgynous women appeal to them. No surprise there.

But no way were straight male audience members jerking off to the thought of a naked Joan Crawford or Dietrich. If you don't believe me, show a straight man some pics and ask him who is hotter.

SOMEBODY PLEASE SHIT IN MY MOUTH!

R45 It's well noted that Crawford and Dietrich were considered great beauties in their youth and regarded as sex symbols. It wasn't gay men or straight women who made them sex symbols, certainly not by themselves. I'm tired of debating this with you because you clearly refuse to accept anything but your own narrow-minded views and you have a real fixation with finding a random straight man on the street and asking them if they would masturbate to Crawford or Dietrich so why don't you do that yourself and then report back here lol. Assuming you even know one to ask.

Bless you r46. Stanwyck was cute. When she was younger. She did need some work done to her teeth and makeup. But Frank Capra showed her how to look good on camera. Besides, she was photogenic and James Wong Howe said that she was a delight to photograph.

R48 I agree, I always thought Stanwyck was very pretty and innocent-looking in her youth during the 30s. She got harder as she grew older although she was never ugly. She grew into her sex appeal.

Again, Capra said she had "a stern beauty".

I thought that she was at her loveliest in REMEMBER THE NIGHT, THE LADY EVE and the underrated THE GREAT MAN’S LADY R49.

R47 no thanks. I'm pretty secure in my knowledge that icons who appeal to gay men aren't beauties and that gay men aren't looking to fuck women and thus these icons appeal to gays for other reasons.

To refute a poster upthread, some of the biggest female stars of the 1950s did not have voluptuous bodies: Audrey Hepburn, Grace Kelly, Doris Day, Debbie Reynolds and Deborah Kerr. It wasn't all about Marilyn Monroe.

Um, they are, Blanche, they are.

Tragic beauties are a different variety of mental illness than the personality types esteemed by DLers. They usually don't shade narcissistic nor histrionic, more bipolar and borderline.

You're out of your mind if you don't think that Joan Crawford wasn't an "electroshock candidate."

Elizabeth Taylor is considered to be the most beautiful woman of all time in her prime by general consensus and she is also considered to be one of the biggest gay icons ever so that proves the theory that pretty women can't be gay icons wrong.

I know it's not her voice, but this is such a terrific song and she moves to it beautifully in that gorgeous dress.

Rita and Vivien are big, with the elders especially. I remember a hilarious John Waters interview where he remarked the term camp makes him think of “two old queens in an antique shop talking about Rita Hayworth musicals.”

Plenty of beautiful women were and are gay icons silly OP.

The idea that Vivien Leigh isn't a gay icon is so preposterous that I can only assume OP doesn't know what a gay icon is.