Barbara Stanwyck vs. Susan Hayward

Hayward tended to be a ham, especially later in her career.

Another worthless thread...Who cares about lesbian actresses from 80 years ago? This is a GAY site.

[quote] Hayward tended to be a ham, especially later in her career.

So did Stanwyck. See her performance in The Thorn Birds.

Stanwyck placed eleventh on the AFI's 100 Years...100 Stars list.

Hayward was no where to be seen.

Barbara was the greater actress, but still a beauty; Susan was the greater beauty, but still a great (if uneven) film actress.

Both were great, great stars. No one could make dramatic expansive gestures when she sang quite like Hayward did in "I'll cry Tomorrow" and "With a Song in My Heart." Watch this hypnotic sequence from the former and you'll see instantly what a great star she was.

Stanwyck over Hayward and just about everyone else.

Although Hayward's career started in a different era.

[quote]Susan eventually got the competitive Oscar that eluded Barbara though.

Yes, but Stanwyck received a number of lifetime achievement awards besides her honorary Academy Award that eluded Hayward.

I liked Susan in MY FOOLISH HEART, THE SNOWS OF KILIMANJARO & SMASH UP. Stanwyck has a dozen films or more that I enjoy watching her in. Even if the movie is not top notch, she’s always compelling onscreen.

[quote]Another worthless thread...Who cares about lesbian actresses from 80 years ago? This is a GAY site.

I don't understand people who make comments like these in threads that don't interest them, especially considering every comment made bumps the thread to the top of the feed.

R9, they are just trolling…

There was only a ten year age difference between them r6.; Susan’s career started to pick up around ten years after Barbara’s too.

You consider that "ham," R3? I doubt Stanwyck's contemporaries Hepburn, Davis, or Crawford could have delivered those lines with such pathos.

Barbara at her best.

You thought that was bad acting R3? Wow! I thought Stanwyck was marvelous in that scene!

If you want to talk about formally talented actresses who seemed to become hammy and/or completely lose their chops late in life, than let's discuss Ida Lupino and Eleanor Parker...

Someone already summed my feelings about Susan Hayward here on DL a few years back. Susie was a beauty and had enormous talent but she was a One Trick Pony. And her one trick was playing BITCHES. She really excelled in those types of parts because she herself had a mean streak. She worked wonders with her limited range and fortunately got some great scripts/films over the years.

Babs on the other hand had a much wider range and was more consistent than Susie. She made every film she appeared in worth watching!

I love them both but Babs all the way.

I'm a Susan Hayward Gay. She was magnificent in I Want to Live and that's why she won the Oscar for it. Stanwyck was a great actress as well of course, but her style was to chew up the scenery..

An actress who worked with both of them told me Hayward was actually quite shy in her personal life. Very nice, so I don't know where the mean streak rumor comes from .

I Want to Live is available to stream here.

R15, You're ready to fly right out of here, aren't you?

Barbara - great great actress - from screwball (Lady Eve) to Noir (Double Indeminity) to melodrama (Stella Dallas) to pre-code sizzle (Baby Face) - no one could match her range.

Hayward may have excelled at playing bitches, r14, but I find her at her best in warmly sympathetic roles like Jane Froman, Lillian Roth, Rachel Jackson and the White Witch Doctor.

If nothing else, those lovely ladies popularized the names Barbara and Susan in the 1940s and 50s.

Hayward accepts her Oscar. Strange that Jerry Lewis brought her back for a second bow.

Barbara Stanwyck definitely should have won the Oscar for STELLA DALLAS. Luise Rainer in THE GOOD EARTH was an embarrassment in yellowface. Hollywood’s treatment of minorities in film has left festering sores.

I also love Barbara in MY REPUTATION and REMEMBER THE NIGHT. Great films to watch at Christmastime.

[quote]An actress who worked with both of them told me Hayward was actually quite shy in her personal life. Very nice, so I don't know where the mean streak rumor comes from .

Was there any truth to the rumours she disliked gay/ effeminate men???

An old drinking buddy of mine, now deceased, insisted she was not a homophobe. She went pub crawling with him and some friends while working on MAME. He was crazy AF though, so take it with a grain of salt. I watched him get creamed with a beer bottle when he called the Asian partner of a mutual acquaintance PEARL HARBOR. He was out cold for a minute. But he claimed that Susan was very funny and quite at ease with his mixed group of friends who were working on the play.

OP is this an actual fucking question? You should go die in a grease fire for even asking it. A valid case could be made that Barbara Stanwyck is the greatest and most versatile actress in Hollywood history. Susan Hayward…

R24 I think the question is valid…you should be the one who should die in a grease fire.

Barbara should have won for Stella Dallas.

Stanwyck was never awarded a genuine Oscar . Was she not liked?

Garbo for Camille

[quote]Stanwyck was never awarded a genuine Oscar. Was she not liked?

Christian Bale has an Oscar, so it's not necessarily that straight forward.

I admit that some of Barbara’s early work was quite uneven. Frank Capra worked with her and taught her a lot about how to present herself to the camera. By the time she did Baby Face, she was great.

It’s been mentioned r29 that being a freelance actress and not signing up with a studio for a long term contract is what hurt her Oscar chances.

R30 I agree, but I always wonder if she ever got a big Oscar push from a studio for whose picture/performance she was nominated. I would think an Oscar win would have helped the bottom line of the picture.

[Quote] I admit that some of Barbara’s early work was quite uneven. Frank Capra worked with her and taught her a lot about how to present herself to the camera. By the time she did Baby Face, she was great.

She did some great work pre-Baby Face as well. The Miracle Woman (1931) is a real gem that needs to be discovered by a wider audience. It’s a wonderful film with a terrific Stanwyck lead performance. Also The Bitter Tea of General Yen (1932) is interesting and worth a look. Both are directed by Capra.

[Quote]Garbo for Camille

Love this film, but Garbo could not have been more hammy.

Stanwyck and Hayward were far better actresses IMO.

I was never really a fan of Garbo. Too affected, and her mannerisms were an unfortunate throwback to her silent film days. Stanwyck developed a very natural acting style, and wasn’t as remote as Garbo. Different personalities, yeah, but even when Stanwyck played immoral characters, there was a vulnerability to them.

Stanwyck had far more range and talent. Hayward seemed best as a woman in jeopardy of some sort. OTOH, Stanwyck doing "I'll Find My Own Tree" wouldn't be half as fun.

Doesn’t Stanwyck do some of her own singing in Lady of Burlesque and The Purchase Price? I recall that she had a limited but husky voice.

They both had lovely speaking voices.

Hayward did her own singing for I'LL CRY TOMORROW, but not for WITH A SONG IN MY HEART nor VALLEY OF THE DOLLS.

Stanwyck was great in comedy, which was something Davis and Crawford could never really do.

Woman Obsessed

I remember seeing this once r40…the thirteen year age difference between Susan and Stephen was hard to ignore.

Susan Hayward! A great beauty, an Oscar winner, and a fantastic dramatic actress. One of the best!!!

Team Susan Hayward!

Team Barbara Stanwyck

"Shit!"

The best Blackglama ad ever r45. None of the others came close to capturing the persona of its subject.

Ruby was an angry mamacita.

Barbara Stanwyck had a rough upbringing. Orphaned, raped, farmed out to foster home after foster home, a nasty abortion that left her sterile. Everything but the bloodhounds snapping at her rear end…

I'm not quite sure what Susan Hayward is supposed to be doing in this photo..................

Barbara Stanwyck for the win!

As a native New Yorker have always had a soft spot for broads from Brooklyn!

Lady of Burlesque still stands test of time. Slice of old NYC that's all but gone.

Barbara Stanwyck in pre code film "Baby Face"! A film alone that pushed envelope far as those wanting some sort of code of behaviour or decency in motion pictures.

Baby Face marked one of young John Wayne's first film appearances

Hayward was from Brooklyn as well. And certainly a broad.

Total turn around character for Ms. Stanwyck, Stella Dallas

Team Stanwyck! Stanwyck showed a warmth onscreen that Hayward could never muster, as well as a flair for comedy. Stanwyck was delightful in “The Lady Eve” and “Ball of Fire”, while the less said about Hayward in “The Marriage-Go-Round”, the better.

R54

Suppose so, but most of Ms. Hayward's pictures I've seen had her playing a boozer who gets slapped around, and or otherwise gets in with wrong sort of guy.

Now Valley of the Dolls was another matter. There she did play a tough NYC broad.....

I love old (classic) films and actors, I have my whole life, since I was a child, but I avoid these threads like the plague because of all the really stupid opinions. They just piss me off - Garbo a "ham" in Camille. Jesus Christ.

Bette couldn't do comedy either, r56.

Then stay away from the thread r58…we don’t have to tailor our opinions to placate you…Garbo was a ham to some people. It’s not Armageddon, just an opinion.

Could Barbara Stanwyck have played Helen Lawson in "VOTD"?

Barbara Stanwyck was not a great beauty, but with right make-up, costumes and lighting....

Ms. Stanwyck also could play a high riding ice cold bitch like no one else. But underneath she also conveyed a sense of dangerous sexual desire. You see this in "Strange Love of Martha Ivers", and "Double Indemnity".

She was "a stern beauty", r62.

Stanwyck was very private - as far as I know she never went on The Tonight Show, or Dick Cavett. I looked at IMDB, and she went on Merv once - to present a Photoplay award. She didn't publicize herself, as a person. Barbara the person was largely an enigma to the public. She did some funny appearances on Jack Benny's show (a Gaslight parody), things like that.

Apparently, Hayward didn't do talk shows, either (no evidence of it on IMDB). One of the differences (to me) between them was that Stanwyck (like Bette Davis) had an ability to elevate mediocre material. Hayward was best in good material. Stanwyck could maintain her dignity even in junk, but Hayward could be junky, in junk (Helen Lawson). She also tended to do junky "glamour" material, like Back Street, and Where Love Has Gone, even after winning an Oscar.

I'll Cry Tomorrow was problematic because she pulled out ALL the stops - you could see she had talent, that, well-directed, could have taken her into the great roles. But I thought that performance was self-indulgent. Unfortunately, she died at 57. Maybe some great work would have been ahead of her.

[quote]Bette couldn't do comedy either, [R56].

R59 It depended on the comedy. She was very funny in All About Eve, delivering some devastatingly witty lines.

R65, Bette absolutely hated "The Bride Came C.O.D.".

R64, I can remember watching Stanwyck on that Merv Griffin Show appearance.

Barbara Stanwyck accepting an Emmy in 1961, with a wardrobe malfunction.

A dying Susan Hayward's last public appearance at the 1974 Academy Awards.

Her doctor administered an injection backstage to prevent her from having a seizure on camera.

I downloaded the TCM app during the pandemic and jumped in with both feet. I adore Barbara Stanwyck -- she's got range. I also like Joan and Bette. Meanwhile, other than On Golden Pond, I've never finished watching a Katharine Hepburn movie. The same with Susan Hayward.

I wanted to like Hayward because my 68 year-old mom is such a fan of hers. We're Brooklynites like Hayward, so I have no problem with tough talking dames. Yet I never made it through I Want To Live! or Smash Up. Something about Hayward's demeanor just doesn't work for me. It's not hatred (I reserve that for Anne Baxter), but I just can't ever bring myself to care for Hayward past the first 20 minutes -- the amount of time I generally use to decide if I'll keep watching a movie.

I keep saying I'll try another of her movies, but nothing has caught my eye yet.

Forgot to add: Even Stanwyck's "hagsploitation" period was tastefully done, IMO. She looked great with her silver hair, and you can tell that she was disciplined about maintaining her body (Joan did well in this area too). My favorite later Stanwyck vehicle is A Taste Of Evil. Even though I guessed the plot early on, I was still mesmerized. She acted the hell out of the part -- not sleepwalking her way through what could have been a forgettable made-for-tv-movie.

[quote]Meanwhile, other than On Golden Pond, I've never finished watching a Katharine Hepburn movie.

You couldn't finish The African Queen, The Philadelphia Story, Adam's Rib, Summertime, Little Women? Were you wasted?

By the way, what's this range I keep hearing Stanwyck had? Could she play the queen of England? (Bette Davis) Scotland? (Katharine Hepburn) Could she have been cast as Asian, or Eurasian? (Not that the actresses who sometimes were - Myrna Loy, Katharine Hepburn, Louise Rainer, Jennifer Jones - were perfectly cast, but Stanwyck would have been truly ridiculous) Could she play a Norwegian immigrant mother (Irene Dunne) or Queen Victoria (also Irene Dunne)? Would anyone have bought her as a nun? (Ingrid Bergman, Rosalind Russell) or as Mrs. Miniver or Madame Curie (Greer Garson)? Can't see her as Auntie Mame (Russell) or Rose Hovick (also Russell) or as a schoolteacher in a Welsh village (Davis, The Corn is Green), or a Southern Belle (Davis, Jezebel) or a Cockney waitress (Davis again, Of Human Bondage).

Stanwyck was gunning for the lead opposite Henry Fonda in On Golden Pond, but Jane wanted Kate. I always wondered how Barbara would have interpreted Ethel.

Never tried any of those, R72. When they come up in the app, I'll save them for a watch.

I can't speak for anyone else, but range to me simply means: Did I believe the actor was the role they played? Did they fully inhabit it and make me forget the actor?

For the olden dames, Stanwyck does it more often than the rest.

In the last twenty years, I feel that way about Cate Blanchett.

I would say that Barbara was the better actress but Susan was always fun. I prefer the Susan of the 1940s where she was softer. By the 1950s she had gained a tougher image. Barbara had that wonderful melodious voice that turned Brooklynese when she got mad.

Susan's pussy was a lot wetter.

And that's an obvious fact.

Stanwyck would've been a lousy Helen Lawson.

Stanwyck had a VERY deep voice in later films.

But Neely O’Hara would have gotten a beat down had she snatched Barbara’s wig off, r78.

That was Dick Powell presenting the Emmy to Stanwyck in that 1961 clip, by the way. He died of cancer two years later. He directed The Conqueror, the epic about Ghegis Khan filmed where the atomic bomb tests were held. They even brought sand - radioactive - back with them to the RKO studio. Many in the cast, and Powell, eventually died of cancer. John Wayne, Hayward, Pedro Armindariz, Agnes Moorehead.

[quote]Years later, as cast and crew members started getting cancer, the connection was made back to The Conqueror set. Powell died in 1963 from lymphoma. Hayward passed away in 1975 from brain cancer. Wayne passed way in 1979 from stomach cancer, though he theorized it was due to his long term smoking habits. Pedro Armendáriz took his own life when he was diagnosed with terminal kidney cancer. Lee Van Cleef passed away from throat cancer. Out of a cast and crew of 220, 91 had contracted cancer, and 46 had passed away as a result of lung cancer, throat cancer and other forms of cancer. That is a stunning statistic. Dr. Robert C. Pendleton, director of radiological health at the University of Utah, told People in 1980 that he feared the radiation in the area was directly tied to all of the cancer deaths from those on the film set. "With these numbers, this case could qualify as an epidemic," Pendleton said. "The connection between fallout radiation and cancer in individual cases has been practically impossible to prove conclusively. But in a group this size you'd expect only 30-some cancers to develop. With 91, I think the tie-in to their exposure on the set of The Conqueror would hold up even in a court of law."

R69

Wasn't that the event where after walking off stage Susan Hayward said something like "I won't be doing that again..."?

R82, It's obvious she was feeling weak and unsteady. That clip doesn't feature their introduction, but she held on to Heston as they walked out and then she held on to the podium for support.

Are you darlings aware that Stanwyck was Susan Hayward's IDOL?

I love both of them, why should there be a competition?

Stanwyck is one of the greatest screen actresses ever. Hayward doesn’t even come close.

You're making me pull out my quote that I always end up putting in a Stanwyck thread, r73:

"Stanwyck may never have been as good as Davis at her best, but she was never as bad as Davis at her worst. In fact she never gave a bad performance."

Could Davis or Hepburn have done Stella Dallas, Annie Oakley, Lady Eve or Sugarpuss O'Shea? Hepburn and Davis started out trained as serious actresses and there's a theatricality to their performances. Stanwyck started out as a Ziegfeld chorus girl before she got on the Broadway stage in a play. She always comes across as believable.

^ Just to add: Could Bette do Auntie Mame? Could Ingrid do Jezebel? Could Roz have done Of Human Bondage?

Missy did a wicked coffee grinder...

[quote]you can tell that she was disciplined about maintaining her body

Barbara maintained her figure with black coffee all day and smoking like a freight train.

[quote]Stanwyck was gunning for the lead opposite Henry Fonda in On Golden Pond, but Jane wanted Kate. I always wondered how Barbara would have interpreted Ethel.

Bette Davis would've been interesting in On Golden Pond. Then again, she probably would've told Jane Fonda to shut the fuck up and slapped her across the face.

Barbara Stanwyck was one of the rare people who actually got better looking as she got older. As a young woman she was rather plain, but as an older woman she was striking. The white hair really suited her.

IMHO Stanwyck aged the best out of all the Old Hollywood female stars. Bette Davis aged the worst, the booze and cigs really did a number on her face. By the mid-50s, when she was only still in her 40s, she got really haggy looking.

Stinky link r91…

[quote]IMHO Stanwyck aged the best out of all the Old Hollywood female stars

Fuck you, r91.

Stanwyck giving salt & pepper realness in the sixties…

She looks fierce in r94's photo.

Stanwyck was in the 3D number. I used to have a pair of these.

Now Voyager just ended. I waited to see what was next...The Snake Pit. No thank yew. Not in the mood for that one...no Sirree.

Stanwyk was outstanding in The Lady Eve—one of the funniest movies ever. And follow that screwball comedy with Double Indemnity. I can’t think of any other actress with such range.

Well, she always stayed in her own lane, r98...

And Fonda followed "The Grapes of Wrath" with "The Lady Eve".

I think Stanwyck was great, I love her in The Lady Eve, Double Indemnity, a little picture called My Reputation, a not-bad one called BF's Daughter, Executive Suite, Union Pacific (with an Irish accent),Banjo On My Knee (she sings in it), Martha Ivers, Baby Face, So Big (1930s version)...Not that wild about Sorry, Wrong Number...she even played a lesbian in A Walk On The Wild Side. I heard her do Cathy in Wuthering Heights on the Lux Radio Theater - that one was a bit out of her range.

I was the one who questioned her range. She had a range, but it had to be within her deep-voiced, slightly Brooklynese, tough personality. She did play soft and ingenue-ish in some early films - and she could do it, but she wasn't the best at it. She had a strong personality and had to be "Barbara Stanwyck" in all her roles. She didn't disappear into a role. But that's not a bad thing, necessarily.

Diane Ladd tells a couple of good Barbara Stanwyck stories @ 44:30.

Has anyone watched Hayward’s Tulsa? It is like an early prototype of Dallas.

I like both but Susan is very underrated here. Was superb in My Foolish Heart.

R101 I love Barb but I agree that while she could handle a range of genres, she had her own limitations and almost all her characters were touch cookies like Barb herself. She couldn't ever do period dramas like Katharine or Bette did. Even Joan got a shot at playing a royal when she played Queen Elizabeth on the radio (and that was before Bette ever played her onscreen).

I don't think there's any actress out there who could play every single part. Whether it was Katharine, Bette, Joan, Barb, or Susan, they all had their niche where they excelled at.

R74 It's a real shame Stanwyck didn't get the role in On Golden Pond, especially considering how popular her pairing was with Henry Fonda. This was probably her best chance of finally winning a competitive Oscar and she would have had it in the bag. Stanwyck winning for On Golden Pond would make a whole lot more sense than Hepburn getting a 4th Oscar for just showing up. It also would have been a better parallel since Henry Fonda was also finally winning an Oscar after being robbed for The Grapes of Wrath so both were long overdue.

R39 Joan was a lot more proficient in comedy than she gets credit for. You have to see some of her very early movies like her debut sound movie Untamed or I Live My Life which was probably the closest she got to playing in a screwball comedy along with Mr. Joan Fontaine.

And let's not forget her iconic performance as Crystal Allen in The Women which is certainly comedic, albeit a different brand of humor than what Roz played as Sylvia Fowler.

R97 Show some respect to your elders. The Snake Pit revolutionized the public's perception of mental health and all the praise goes to Ms. de Havilland.

True, R105. For instance, Barbara was great in westerns (love the Furies!), but I can't see Davis or Hepburn doing well in them. Crawford was fine in Johnny Guitar, I guess, but it wasn't her strongest role. Meanwhile, I'll admit that thinking of Stanwyck in a Victorian period drama leaves me scratching my head.

Did Hayward do a western? Just checked IMDB and see something called Canyon Passage that looks like one, though it's not really a "Hayward" vehicle.

Didn't Greer Garson of all people do a western with Dana Andrews?

Yes Susan did some westerns like Garden of Evil and also played women in other period films. Barbara played period in The Man with the Cloak.

When the term “range” is mentioned in regard of acting, people seem to automatically associate it with the Meryl Streep brand of it. I’m a big fan of Streep – she’s a great actress. But range is not only about looking and sounding different in different roles.

The three movies starring Katharine Hepburn and Cary Grant made in 1938-1940 (yes, 3 - Sylvia Scarlet was a Hepburn’s film featuring the-yet-to-fully-establish-his-own-film-persona Grant) were all comedies (of different kinds) set in a rather confined social milieu similar to that of Hepburn’s – upper class New England. Hepburn played rich heiresses in these three consecutive films of hers. Grant had a somewhat more varied group of people to play in them, but in Bringing Up Baby, Holiday and The Philadelphia Story both didn’t stray away from the very distinctive palette of acting tools (or mannerisms, if you wish) they were known for. Yet Susan Vance, Linda Seton and Tracy Lord differ vastly – in their motivations, their emotional scope, the way they carry themselves and present themselves, the way they place themselves in the world. In stills they might look quite the same, but in motion they are distinctive – and distinctively different – human beings. And the same can be said about David Huxley, Johnny Case and C. K. Dexter Haven (and Archibald Cutter, Geoff Carter, Alec Walker, Walter Burns, Nick Arden and Matt Howard which were played by Grant on other films in between the ones he made with Hepburn).

An actor's output should be evaluated firstly by this measure tape – does she or he (or them, why not) deliver what the part they are playing calls for – and to what degree the do it. It can be done the Paul Muni’s way, wigs and false facial parts and all that jazz, it can be done the Joel McCrea’s way, as easily going as possible. And as it’s been stated here before, Stanwyck practically always delivered, creating a wide-ranged gallery of personas who, indeed, happened to look and sound a lot like Barbara Stanwyck. A great actress.

Stanwyck could do vastly different genres. She could sing and and could be understated in a way that Davis or Hepburn rare were. She also was more naturalistic in style where they were more mannered and, in their way, technical, although not technical ala Streep and her accents.

Davis, in particular, could do a lot of characters but could never have been in a musical. I would like to have seen her in comedy---she probably could do a comedy of manners, but not screwball, which Stanwyck could do simply by being the straight woman.

I don't remember Hayward doing a range of genres. She was at her best being hardboiled and it probably would have taken a good director to get an understated non-woman-in-peril perfomance out of her. I agree that for sheer annoyance, you can't beat Anne Baxter. She is the weakest link in "All About Eve", even though it is supposed to be her story. She's lucky that everyone around her is at the top of their game and that she's supposed to be an imposter/phony. She just needed to be a little more subtle about it.

R113, I hate Anne Baxter so much that even knowing she was framed for a murder she didn't commit, I rooted against her in The Blue Gardenia. I wanted that bitch to go down.

She was awful in All About Eve, worse in Walk on the Wild Side and laughable in The Razor's Edge (I clapped when she died in that one). Baxter was always the same; I never understood how she got so many roles. Not particularly attractive or talented. Just grating and obvious.

How did Anne Baxter become a star? She's so unlikeable in films and in interviews. Shaddup. SLAP!

ALL ABOUT EVE and THE TEN COMMANDMENTS are the only two films that I can tolerate Anne in.

[quote]Barbara maintained her figure with black coffee all day and smoking like a freight train.

You forgot rare-raw beef. She ate it for breakfast, lunch and dinner!

[quote]She had a strong personality... She didn't disappear into a role. But that's not a bad thing, necessarily.

That IS THE THING, R91. Movie actors without personalities are not stars, they don't stick out from the crowd, they don't play lead roles. If Stanwyck, Davis, Hepburn, Hayward disappeared into their roles, there would be no threads on the DL about them.

Btw, Barbara Stanwyck was very attractive in her 30s from 1937 to 47. She didn't have to turn 50 to claim it as someone said above.

*

Love the re-touching, R119.

It was de rigueur, r120.

Susan Hayward idolized Barbara Stanwyck. They were both from Brooklyn and lived in poverty. Barbara’s mother died when she was a child and her father abandoned her family. She had surrogate parents who took care of her. She never forgot them and after she became a star, she frequently sent them money during the depression. They were also Susan Hayward’s neighbors. Susan greatly admired Barbara, for this. Susan viewed Stanwyck as a role model and an inspiration.

They never worked together. Years later, around 1969, Barbara was too ill to complete a TV movie. Susan Hayward replaced her, even insisting on wearing Barbara’s wardrobe in the movie. Susan sent Barbara flowers with a card that said “From one Brooklyn broad to another.” Barbara was so charmed by it. Later, they both met each other and they became instant friends.

After Susan died in 1975, Barbara sent flowers. The card read: “From one Brooklyn broad to another.”

That story was lovely. I wish we could have seen both Brooklyn broads together onscreen

I don't know, r123. I think they'd cancel each other out.

I forgot about THE LOST MOMENT, a gothic melodrama Susan made with queeny but heterosexual Robert Cummings. Also starring Agnes Moorehead as a 110 year old woman who played Susan’s aunt, IIRC.

Susan Hayward was the most beautiful of the 2 of them.

Susan Hayward was good in the film noir, They Won't Believe Me (1947), with Robert Young, Jane Greer and Rita Johnson. Recently it was restored to its original length (it was cut for re-release).

She was perfect in My Foolish Heart (1949) - the only film made from a J. D. Salinger story (Uncle Wiggly In Connecticut). Salinger was so unhappy with it, he never gave any rights to Hollywood again.

[quote]Davis, in particular, could do a lot of characters but could never have been in a musical.

R113 Except she was - a musical revue, anyway - Thank Your Lucky Stars (1943). She sang They're Either Too Young Or Too Old, by Frank Loesser. It was the highlight of the film - and a big hit song. Bette also starred in a Broadway musical revue: Two's Company. It played to sold out houses (despite bad reviews) but ended after 90 performances when Bette left the show with osteomyelitis of the jaw.

The Brooklyn Bombshell

In the wartime movie The Frogmen, there's an opening scene where they name all the major actors from the time period who came from Brooklyn and both Barb and Susan are mentioned.

The Frogmen stars Dana Andrews, Richard Widmark, and Gary Merrill (yes, the same Gary who was Bette's last husband and in All About Eve with her). I think Robert Wagner has a small cameo as well.

R129 I wonder what they would think about the actresses associated with Brooklyn today?

R130 This is the list of actors referenced in The Frogmen so you can guess the difference between them and the "stars" of today. Walter Hampden, Harry Houdini, Danny Kaye, Mae West, Gene Tierney, Susan Hayward, Mickey Rooney, Barbara Stanwyck, and Lena Horne.

R131 If Mae West, Gene Tierney, Susan Hayward, Barbara Stanwyck, and Lena Horne had done Girls, I would've watched it. ;)

Chesterfields

R132 Lena Horne over Lena Dunham anyday. Now I wish there had been some project with those five Brooklyn broads.

R133 The farmer or whoever that is at the bottom looks like a DL queen if I've ever seen one. He probably creamed his pants that he was used in the same ad as her.

R129 Jeffrey Hunter had a good part in The Frogmen, as well.

Phoebe mentions Stanwyck and Hayward to Eve in the last scene of All About Eve, you queens.

“Of course, they’re just film stars.”

R137, That scene has definite lesbian undertones.

[quote]“Of course, they’re just film stars.”

“Of course, they’re just MOVIE stars"

That's what she calls herself, r137.

I remember unfiltered Chesterfields, they were still around in the 90s. You needed some strong lungs to smoke those things, they were a very heavy smoke.

Barbara "Phoebe" Bates had a sad ending.

"On March 18, 1969, Barbara Bates committed suicide in her mother's garage by carbon monoxide poisoning. She was 43 years old."

Bates’ career didn’t maintain momentum for some reason…

R142

R141- I love the way George Sanders replies, "And why not?"

Stanwyck could actually sing well enough that it’s strange she never did any real musicals (unless LOB counts). Bette Davis, on the other hand, managed to make it through songs, but it was not a pleasant sound at all.

She could sing well enough for Dixie Daisy, r147, but it really wasn't suitable for a full length film musical. She's obviously dubbed in Ball of Fire. She probably could have gotten away with it on on stage in later years like, Kate, Bette and Vivien.

[quote]Stanwyck could actually sing well enough

HA! R147, you must have a tin ear. Stanwyck tried, tried hard, but she couldn't really sing. In fact, she was offered a role in Follies and rejected it because she "couldn't sing," it's in a letter available online somewhere.

Get a load of this:

I've never read she was offered FOLLIES, r149. She wasn't on the possibility list in Chapin's book.

There are unsubstantiated rumors that Barbara was more than just a taxi dancer…

R150, there is a handwritten letter from Stanwyck "thanks but no thanks" on Follies.

I'm not saying there isn't, r152/r149 ...but I wish you had a link or source.

[quote] Another worthless thread...Who cares about lesbian actresses from 80 years ago? This is a GAY site.

Oops, wrong again. As usual.

Barbara Stanwyck always seemed so stony to me. Susan Hayward seemed more frenetic. Neither was a great beauty, with Stanwyck being more handsome and Hayward being more plump faced. I'd call it a tossup.

When she was a chorus girl in NYC in the 20s, Barbara earned extra money as a dance instructor for gay men and lesbians.

Hayward started out as a model. I think she would have been considered attractive in her time.

Barbara Stanwyck dancing with Buddy Ebsen in Banjo On My Knee (1936). At around 2:55.

Neither one of these broads could sing or dance but I love them both.

Stanwyck singing (with Tony Martin) in Banjo On My Knee

Joan wasn't bad...

Susan Hayward and Bette Davis did not get along while making "Where Love Has Gone".

Bette said she only took the role of Hayward's mother to pay for B. D.'s lavish wedding.

BD married a lazy grifter when she was 16 and he was 30, and Bette nearly went broke supporting them for the next two decades.

Both women were quite petite and trim. You had to be careful with Barbara’s hair and costumes, otherwise she’d disappear beneath the wigs and gowns. I thought that her hairstyle in Lady of Burlesque was godawful. And a few times Edith Head totally missed the mark on some of her costumes.

It’s peas, carrots. You can’t compare them with each other. Their careers waxed at different times. Stanwyck was a star in 1939 when Hayward arrived in Hollywood to test for Scarlett O’Hara and got a supporting part in Beau Geste, a marvelous movie by the way. By the 1950’s Stanwyck’s star was waning and Hayward was a top box office star. Darryl Zanuck said she could do whatever she wanted to do.

R164, at the time, 5'3" to 5'4" was considered average. Especially since most of the male leads were 5'9".

Since Gone With The Wind has been mentioned you can see Susan's two audition scenes in this documentary from 0.15 and 1.01. I don't think Barbara tested.

R165, we can compare them if we want to. They do have similar screen personas.

Ava.

Bernice

Hayward could be sexy, but not Stanwyck. Of course I'm a big Mo so what do I know?

Hayward had a soft side, beautifully exemplified in WITH A SONG IN MY HEART.

Speaking of which, have you all watched the title tune dance duet in which Susie's left tit is exposed (and they left it in the film!)? You can't miss it if you look for it. Sorry not to link but I don't know how. But worth the search on youtube.

For no reason...

R171 knows by the size of the padded bra.

Stanwyck had sex appeal. Compared to Hayward’s, it was harder edged.

R171 Hayward could be more conventionally sexy, but Stanwyck was very sexy. Many straight/bi men find a strong ball busting woman the sexiest thing in the world. Straight men aren’t as simple as women and gay men like to thing they are.

Sorry think not thing, I don’t normally post from my phone.

Was Barbara Stanwyck the only major actress of the time who wasn't considered for Scarlett O'Hara? I've never heard about her being in the running.

Garbo wasn't.

Garbo somehow seems above it all.

I think Katharine Hepburn talks about it in her Dick Cavett interview.

I don’t see Barbara as Scarlett O’Hara…she was in two films with Clark Gable, the Pre-Code NIGHT NURSE and the boring TO PLEASE A LADY. There was little chemistry between Stanwyck and Gable. She played better against affable, pliable types like Gary Cooper and Van Heflin. Gable with girly girls.

R179, Was Crawford?

Joan Crawford wasn't seriously considered for Gone With the Wind. She was much too contemporary for period roles. She did one period film at MGM "The Gorgeous Hussy" and it was awful.

[quote]Many straight/bi men find a strong ball busting woman the sexiest thing in the world. Straight men aren’t as simple as women and gay men like to thing they are.

Oh, sure they are. The ONLY straight men I've ever heard of that like balsy women like Stanwyck are black guys.

Plenty of straight men found her hot, r185.

^ Dialing in from 1942

Barbara got tons of letters from GI's during the war. Frank Capra and Henry Fonda both had serious crushes on her.

Link, R188?

Read STARRING MISS BARBARA STANWYCK, STANWYCK by Axel Madsen...search Google, R189.

Does this book talk about, Virginia, the woman who lived with Stanwyck for many years up until her death IIRC?

r189...

[quote]Henry Fonda said a few times through the years that he had a big crush on Barbara during filming, and if she were not happily married to Robert Taylor at the time, he would have made a move.

Starring Miss Barbara Stanwyck is by Ella Smith and it has a lot of great photos as well as text.

R184 Not according to The Scarlett O'Hara War.

Also the Gone with the Wind making-of documentary on the DVD showed poll rankings for Scarlett chosen by Americans. Joan was in the top five of audience rankings. I think Bette, Miriam Hopkins, and Tallulah Bankhead were in the top five as well.

R191 Was she the black woman who was always seen by Barbara's side?

If Barbara Stanwyck had played Scarlett they would've had to re-write the Civil War because she would've defeated Sherman's entire army herself.

That reminds me of the reviews for the movie Witness to Murder starring Barbara Stanwyck along with All About Eve veterans George Sanders and Gary Merrill. Barb's character sees George Sanders commit a murder but the police won't believe her. The movie was panned because people said nobody could buy Barb as a victim, she was just too much of a tough cookie.

[quote]Joan was in the top five of audience rankings

That's "audience rankings", r194. That doesn't mean she was seriously under consideration, particularly after The Gorgeous Hussy.

Sorry, r197...

R198 Neither were Bette or Katharine. Only Bette was deluded enough to reframe the story to make it sound like she had the part but magnanimously gave it up because she thought Errol Flynn was a miscast and she wouldn't rob the American people of Gable as Rhett. None of the A-Listers at the time were in serious consideration.

The Gorgeous Hussy was awful, but not because of Crawford. In typical MGM fashion it was overproduced, overstuffed and overdressed, and it was whitewashed so all the guts were cut out of the story. The real Peggy O'Neal had no patience for the stuffy, conventional rules of polite society and she went after whatever she wanted, just like Scarlett and Joan herself, but you'd never know it from the movie. As far as physical type, Crawford resembled Scarlett O'Hara, far more than Bette ever did, and in 1939, she was just hitting her stride as an actress, playing an unsympathetic vixen in The Women.

Adrian's gown does that hussy no favors.

I could see Bette being in some consideration because for a New England Yankee she did very well in roles as a Southerner: Cabin In The Cotton, Jezebel, The Little Foxes, Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte...

Thankfully, WB let her make Jezebel as a consolation prize and it won her an Oscar. And, since it was released prior to GWTW it didn't suffer the fate of every Southern Belle picture that followed in being pre-judged because it wasn't GWTW.

There was really only one actress, other than Vivien Leigh who I think would've been perfect as Scarlett and that was Tallulah Bankhead and she was too old to play the role by the time it was written. If she had been 10 years younger in 1939 I have no doubt she would've been cast. As it was I wish Selznick had considered some stunt casting for supporting roles. I love the actress that played Belle, but I wouldn't have minded Mae West or Tallulah in that role.

Those poll rankings were voted by people who'd never even read GWTW.

R203, Tallulah had the spirit and the talent (as well as the genuine southern background), but she wasn't really sexy in the way Scarlett had to be. Can't see Margaret Sullavan in the role for the same reason.

I didn't watch all if that audition clip. Some of those auditions were painful, but I thought Paulette Goddard at least nailed on of her scenes. She might have been interesting.

R192, Capra and Fonda, and Taylor for that matter, had crushes on Stanwyck the woman. We're talking about her icy sexless tough SCREEN IMAGE. Is that too difficult for you to comprehend?

Those GIS loved her r207. And that was her onscreen image, cunt.

Anybody who says no straight American men are attracted to strong women, do not know many straight men.

Tallulah could never have captured the freshness of young innocent Scarlett in the pre-war beginning of the film.

Really, NO ONE could have come close to the perfection of Vivien Leigh....it was like Mitchell wrote the character with her in mind. Selznick was one lucky bastard.

[quote]We're talking about her icy sexless tough SCREEN IMAGE

No, r207, YOU are. You just refuse to see that some men found her sexy even in her tough roles. Is that too difficult for you to comprehend?

R208, you haven't provided evidence that GIs were cuckoo over Stanwyck.

Give it up, r208. r212 is obviously here to troll.

Yep r213, and he’s blocked.

[quote]Stanwyck tried, tried hard, but she couldn't really sing. In fact, she was offered a role in Follies and rejected it because she "couldn't sing," it's in a letter available online somewhere.

Prove it, r149.

I just watched The Strange Love of Martha Ivers, which I remember seeing before. It's an interesting but somewhat odd melodrama-noir combo. Stanwyck is okay in it. Kirk Douglas is as bad as he always was. Van Heflin is good as always, even though he's not much to look at. The revelation, though, is Lizabeth Scott. You just can't take your eyes off her whenever she is on, and her pouty delivery is perfect for the part. I guess she was kind of like a blonde Patricial Neal with a similar voice. I want to see more of her.

Sorry for drifting. Carry on.

This never gets old. Stanwyck secretly taped ragging on Joan. Interview with drunk Joan in a limosine.

R167, those screen tests are a lot of fun to watch. Loved when Cukor tells Paulette to make her face less hard, and she gamely tries, but it's beyond her abilities. Lana's awful, so is Edythe (Susan Hayward). Jean Arthur's dreadful too. Joan Bennett's not terrible, but she has no fire, she's just posing-I guess it wasn't until the film noirs of the 40s that her film persona coalesced.

Leslie Howard was a better choice for Ashley than Melvyn Douglas, but just barely. Randolph Scott would have been a far better choice; he had the talent, he was handsome, and he had the innate gentlemanly quality Ashley Wilkes needed.

[quote]Leslie Howard was a better choice for Ashley than Melvyn Douglas, but just barely. Randolph Scott would have been a far better choice; he had the talent, he was handsome, and he had the innate gentlemanly quality Ashley Wilkes needed

Leslie Howard was a much, much better actor than Randolph Scott. MUCH.

its hilarious when Linda Watkins exclaims Great Balls of Fire!

[quote]I guess she was kind of like a blonde Patricial Neal with a similar voice.

Scott then returned to New York in 1942, where she starred as Sadie Thompson in John Colton's play Rain, which ran on the then equivalent of off-Broadway. It was her first starring role, but no drama critic reviewed the play.[38] But the producer of a Broadway play, Michael Myerberg, did see the show.

Myerberg had just moved an experimental production of Thornton Wilder's new play The Skin of Our Teeth starring Tallulah Bankhead from New Haven to the Plymouth Theatre. Impressed by Scott's Sadie Thompson, he hired her as the understudy for Bankhead, despite Bankhead's protests. Bankhead had signed a contract forbidding an understudy for the Sabina role, which Myerberg breached by hiring Scott. Previously, Bankhead had controlled the production by not showing up for rehearsal. Now, Myerberg could simply put Scott in Bankhead's place. Scott has acknowledged that Myerberg used her to keep Bankhead under control and that Bankhead was furious about the situation. Describing her own experience with Bankhead, Scott recalled, "She never spoke to me, except to bark out commands. Finally, one day, I'd had enough. I told her to say 'please,' and after that she did." During her eight months as the understudy, Scott never had an opportunity to substitute for Bankhead, as Scott's presence guaranteed Bankhead's. During her time with the production, Scott played the role of "Girl/Drum Majorette." The play ran from November 18, 1942 to September 25, 1943.

R204 Lol that couldn't be further from the truth. All of America had read GWTW. This was back during a time when Americans (and people in general) actually read.

R218 Also, Southern.

Out of the nationwide search for Scarlett, I liked Alicia Rhett who played India and I'm surprised she went home to Charleston and didn't try to continue acting.

Here's Katharine Hepburn telling Dick Cavett about GWTW from 11.30.

R218 I love Jean Arthur but she was no Scarlett O'Hara.

The issue with casting Randolph Scott (besides his lack of acting skills) is that suddenly it would be less plausible as to why Scarlett would want Rhett over Ashley by the end.

Was Laurence Olivier ever in the running for Ashley?

Doesn't Scarlett start off as a teenager? The only one of the finalists who I think can pass for one is Vivien.

Edythe Marrenner (Susan Hayward) screen test for GWTW....

Thirty-one actresses tested for role of Scarlett O'Hara.

"Many famous—or soon-to-be-famous—actresses were considered, but only thirty-one women were actually screen-tested for Scarlett including Ardis Ankerson, Jean Arthur, Tallulah Bankhead, Diana Barrymore, Joan Bennett, Nancy Coleman, Frances Dee, Ellen Drew (as Terry Ray), Paulette Goddard, Susan Hayward (under her real name of Edythe Marrenner), Vivien Leigh, Anita Louise, Haila Stoddard, Margaret Tallichet, Lana Turner and Linda Watkins"

quote, Wikipedia Gone With The Wind.

R227 Weren't Jean Arthur and Tallulah Bankhead in their late 30s (if not early 40s)?

Foxy Sondheim told Stephen that Stanwyck was one of her interior decorating clients.

Barbara Stanwyck's name is not on the official list of "girls" to be tested for role of Scarlett O'Hara. Quite frankly find it highly implausible she would even have been considered.

Balance of list..

R229 when did that ever stop anyone in Hollywood?

Gene Tierney didn't start off in Hollywood until a year after GWTW otherwise I wonder if she could have been a contender. Her movie Belle Star is basically GWTW 2.0 and even has Randolph Scott as the love interest. Gene's character is the outlaw version of Scarlett and certainly bears more than a passing resemblance.

Stanwyck's Scarlett to Dietrich's Melanie.

Four finalists for the role of Scarlett were Goddard, Jean Arthur, Joan Bennett, and Leigh. Paulette Goddard actually did more screen test for role than any of the other actresses, and even signed an option agreement. This was all before Vivian Leigh arrived on scene, which of course changed everything.

Personally think Paulette Goddard would have been an excellent choice as Scarlett O'Hara.

Greetings.

Joan as Scarlett and Bette as dowdy Melanie.

No to Paulette. She looks about 40 in the color test. Vivien has that spoilt school girl fire.

Barbara Stanwyck might have pulled off later part of GWTW where Scarlett O'Hara is now young determined woman trying to survive horrors of Civil War, then going through reconstruction. But as a young late teenaged high spirted southern belle in first part of picture? Just don't see it happening.

Ghastly Barbara Stanwyck, what a hard faced bitch she was.

R241 Wasn't it she who stated she hated sissy men?

Never heard of that.

A writer or interviewer met Barbara Stanwyck in her home. He had the gall to ask her if she was a lesbian and if Robert Taylor was gay. Barbara threw him out of her house.

(I’m not sure if the interviewer was a male or female.)

Frank Capra had more than a crush on Stanwyck.

I was surprised she did not attend and participate in his AFI Life Achievement Award ceremony.

Both Claudette Colbert and Bette Davis did.

When did Bette work with Capra?

R245, Barbara may have been filming “The Thorn Birds”, and could not attend the Frank Capra tribute.

R246, in A POCKETFUL OF MIRACLES.

R248 I forgot about that movie. That was an awful one.

Barbara and Bette in the 70s.

R247, So what? Stanwyck's scenes were filmed in Simi Valley, CA and the Capra tribute was held in Los Angeles.

R250 Bette looks like the crypt keeper

Even young, Paulette looked 10 years older than Viv. And Paulette always had a sophisticated urban thing going on that just didn't allow you to believe she grew up on a Southern plantation with a Mammy. But Vivien in that opening shot in the white and yellow dress with the puffed sleeves......oh my, just perfection!

Bette did not age well, the booze and cigs really took their toll on her looks.

But you have to hand it to Bette, r252, she had no illusions about her looks.

Bette looked older than her years even during the 1940s where she came across as outright matronly, especially compared to the glamorous icons of the time. All About Eve gave her a little bit of sexiness but then she squandered that for Gary Merrill and that frump hairstyle.

R255 If Judy wanted to raise her self-esteem about her looks, all she had to do was act alongside Bette instead of Lana and Hedy.

R244 - the interviewer was Boze Hadleigh aka George Hadley-Garcia.

You can't believe Boze Hadleigh.

Boze Hadleigh and Darwin Porter were cut from the same cloth.

[Quote]A writer or interviewer met Barbara Stanwyck in her home. He had the gall to ask her if she was a lesbian and if Robert Taylor was gay. Barbara threw him out of her house.

This is not so. He presented her with a list of bi Hollywood actors/actresses that had been compiled by Hollywood columnist Bill Dakota Her name was at the top. She did comment a bit but she wanted no personal questions She threw him out.

I don't know what to make of Boze Hadleigh. But no, Darwin Porter writes fan fiction. He's a despicable parasite who confounds Hollywood history.

R261, What about J. Randy Taraborrelli?

R182, Gable was a sexy menace in Night Nurse. It’s one of his few supporting parts before he hit it big with Red Dust in 1932. He played a murderous chauffeur dressed in a tight black uniform and booted. He looked like a black dildo! It’s a fetish performance.

Bette Davis looked older in her films because she was an actress who was a star! She played the character and not the star part. A Watch on the Rhine is a perfect example. It’s a supporting part that she took on at the height of her stardom. Paul Lukas was able to repeat his Broadway role in the film winning an Academy Award and casting Davis insured the movie’s success.

[R167], those screen tests are a lot of fun to watch. Loved when Cukor tells Paulette to make her face less hard, and she gamely tries, but it's beyond her abilities. Lana's awful, so is Edythe (Susan Hayward). Jean Arthur's dreadful too. Joan Bennett's not terrible, but she has no fire, she's just posing-I guess it wasn't until the film noirs of the 40s that her film persona coalesced.

Jean Arthur was an ex-girlfriend of Selznick. That's been given as one of the reasons she was in competition for Scarlett for so long. Leigh showed up at the last minute, meanwhile they were trying to find a good actress and they (if these tests are any indication) hadn't found an ideal one. And the start date was looming. Hollywood in the 1930s didn't have an unlimited amount of talented, young (or young-looking) actresses who were right for the part of Scarlett. If Vivien hadn't shown up, the movie would have sucked, in my opinion. I love Paulette but she couldn't have carried that film.

Bette Davis was obviously made up to look like an alcoholic hag in Pocketful Of Miracles. Then she's transformed into a sort of New York society dowager, and looks much better. Though she's supposed to be matronly in the tradition of that era (the movie takes place in the late 20s or early 30s).

“A Pocket Full of Miracles” had juicy backstage drama.

Glenn Ford, the star, previously worked with Bette Davis in the film “A Stolen Life” in 1946. She chose Glenn as her co-star. This helped Glenn’s career as a leading man. The movie “Gilda”, with Rita Hayworth, was released the same year. Glenn became a top box office star.

Years later, when Bette Davis’s career waned, Glenn Ford took credit for giving Bette a starring role in “Pocket Full of Miracles.” He said he is returning Bette a favor since she needs a good role. Bette was FURIOUS! She said Glenn was a shiteel who wouldn’t help her out of a sewer!

At that time, Glenn Ford was dating actress Hope Lang. She had a role in the film. He wanted Hope’s dressing room next to his. (This was a star dressing room.) Bette was supposed to occupy that it, but was relocated to a smaller, more modest room. She was FURIOUS.

Hope Lange was the brunt of Bette’s anger. She went to Frank Capra, who said Bette Davis was “delicate spirited”. Hope replied: “Bette Davis is as delicate spirited as a Sherman tank!”

I think maybe Capra used "delicate spirited" as a euphemism for "half drunk."

Anson Williams co-produced with Ron Howard the made for television movie "Skyward".

They were thrilled when Bette Davis agreed to be in it, but she proved to be difficult during the filming and it was not a happy set.

One of the Davis bios goes into the drama on the set of "Skyward." Bette was drinking during filming and it made her even more cantankerous.

Davis threw her salad at Ron Howard and his co-producer Potsy, thus undermining her chances for a coveted role in "Cocoon."

[quote]At that time, Glenn Ford was dating actress Hope Lang

We were fucking, r267, not dating.

"Looks like you've got a pocketful full of more than miracles there, Glenn! How convenient that my star dressing room is next to yours."

Ford was a shithead.

R274, And a lousy lay.

Really the only two good things about "A Pocketful of Miracles" is Bette Davis and Ann-Margaret.

Since Capra did a few films with Barbara in her early years wonder if she was offered Pocketful first?

R277 Maybe she would've thought it too close, in subject, to Stella Dallas.

I love both Stanwyck and Hayward, but I frequently get them mixed up. Which is the one who had the famous line: 'I'm a bitch in the boardroom, a bore in the bedroom and a bear on the toilet' Honestly they both could have said it.

[quote]Bette did not age well, the booze and cigs really took their toll on her looks.

Barbara Stanwyck, Hepburn and Hayward were no strangers to booze and cigs. This difference was weight control - Bette let herself go, go big in the 1950s.

Bette and Ginger Rogers both got zaftig in the fifties. Rogers allegedly had an ice cream fountain installed in her den, I guess she read her scripts sitting next to the fountain.

R280, I didn’t know Katharine Hepburn was a smoker. Yes, she smoked in her films, but I don’t think she smoked off screen.

Hepburn had awful skin too…freckles galore and premature wrinkles.

I think she said on Dick Cavett that she had quit, r282. She also said that she absolutely loved smoking.

R282, Katharine Hepburn was a big fucking off-screen smoker. She's smoking in 75% of pictures.

Major sun damage, r283.

Barbara couldn't have been a big smoker, she had flawless skin until the end. I mean she was like the white version of Cicely Tyson.

[quote]She's smoking in 75% of pictures

Hardly, r285. She wasn't Lucille. Barbara was a heavy smoker, r287. She had emphysema.

R288 is unfamiliar with photo retouching. In reality, Stanwyck had pale speckled pre-mature aged skin even with a facelift. No crime, but please, be real.

Sorry, R288, that was meant for R287.

R282

To be fair it seemed everyone smoked back then, women and men.

Prior to about WWI years smoking while known wasn't exactly a huge issue, women certainly didn't do it in public as it was deemed "low" behavior. Fast forward to run up and WWII years where smoking took off in large part due to collusion by tobacco companies, branches of federal government (including military), film and other entertainment media along with advertising.

Smokes were handed out like candy to military personnel, this even though the addictive and negative health affects were known by tobacco companies and even within medical community. Smoking was seen to calm nerves, decrease hunger pangs, etc... All thigs US military found desirable for those in service.

Really big shocking thing was during 1940's and beyond the push in films and other media to get women smoking. The thing went from being seen as "low" behaviour to glamorous, as film stars, actresses, models in adverts, etc.. all were seen puffing away.

You watch early television programs and people were smoking away like fiends.

Ironically decades later Mike Wallace (himself who once smoked, even on air) broke the tobacco whistleblower story on 60 Minutes.

Babs for Chesterfield!

Good post, R291. Famed journalist Edward R Murrow (on air chain smoker) brought the idea of the dangers of smoking to his program in the 1950s.

They also consumed a lot of Sen-Sen, for obvious reasons.

Smoking cigarettes skyrocketed in popularity in the 1920s. Cigarettes had already been around for decades by then, but the 20s was when they really took off.

Katharine Hepburn on Cavett.

I believe Mae West was the only star actress of Classic Hollywood who didn't smoke. When she had to smoke in a film the prop department doctored up fake cigarettes that looked like the real thing but didn't contain any tobacco. She didn't drink alcohol either.

Mae also had her shoes custum made...

I could rewatch that Cavett interview with Hepburn a thousand times and not be bored. Same with his Bette David interview.

Too bad Cavett never got Stanwyck or Hayward in that chair.

Barbara was no fan of interviews on talk shows from what I’ve been told about her.

Hepburn and Davis enjoyed talking about themselves. I never got the impression that Stanwyck did.

Or the QUESTIONS that might be asked of her, R301.

Yes, smoking rates did take off in 1920's, but rates for women in USA were still largely small for most of that decade. It wasn't until the passage of 19th Amendment in 1929 coupled with a push for the "new woman", that caused rates to start increasing.

From 1930's onwards however it was off to the races, again prompted in large part due to WWII and film/media.

Famous cigarette scene in film "Now Voyager" is one of the most memorable in terms of promoting cigarette smoking, in particular for women.

Bette Davis was at height of her fame and game, so for her character to light up was a big deal.

Mike Wallace was a Parliament guy!

Parliaments were great cigs.

She didn't light up, r304...he did.

Glenn Ford really threw his weight around on “Pocketful of Miracles”. Frank Capra related in his autobiography that he signed Shirley Jones (fresh off her great reviews for “Elmer Gantry”) to play Ford’s girlfriend. But Ford decided after Jones signed on that he wanted his real-life girlfriend Hope Lange to play the role. Capra tried to dissuade Ford, claiming (rightly) that Jones had a contract — privately, Capra thought Lange looked too young and Jones was a better fit for the role. But Ford wouldn’t budge, and Jones was paid off.

Does Shirley comment on this in her memoir?

Apparently not.

Playing Glenn Ford's girl friend in a big flop after winning her Oscar certainly wouldn't have helped Shirley's career. I think she made out just fine.

R309, Not that incident, but Shirley wrote that while attending a Hollywood party, she became tired and went to an upstairs bedroom for a quick nap, with husband Jack Cassidy downstairs.

She awoke to find Glenn lying next to her, wearing just boxer shorts. According to Shirley, she got up and returned to the party.

Glenn Ford and Shirley Jones starred in "The Courtship of Eddie's Father" in 1963, two years after "Pocketful of Miracles".

Apparently this film, STOLEN HOURS, was based on Bette Davis’ DARK VICTORY.

[quote]Glenn Ford and Shirley Jones starred in "The Courtship of Eddie's Father" in 1963, two years after "Pocketful of Miracles". She said in her autobiography she really liked him(I was waiting for her to mention him having her replaced on Pocketful Of Miracles, but she didn't. She did say, iirc, that he was somewhat dull and colorless off screen.)

Shirley Booth was Capra's first choice for Apple Annie. Second choice was Helen Hayes. Davis was third choice and at a low point in her film career. Exhibitors reportedly didn't want her to have star billing between Ford and Lange in the ads, figuring her name on the film would actually hurt the box office (this was the year before her comeback in the hit, Baby Jane)!

I don't think it flopped though - I think it made a profit. Not a big hit, of course.

Things were such shit for aging actresses back then. Most movies didn't have roles for women their age, and there were only three tv networks whose shows were geared toward a younger audience. It really sucked. That's why so many of them basically retired if they could afford to do so. Greer Garson, Irene Dunne, Jean Arthur, Gene Tierney, Susan Hayward, Jennifer Jones etc. etc. Davis kept working because she had to support her entire family and couldn't afford to pick and choose scripts. She had to take anything.

At least today there's always a streaming series a well-known actress of a certain age can appear in.

Well, there was Lucille Ball...

TV shows back then weren't really geared toward a younger audience. They tended to be geared toward middle aged people - there were noone of the teen shows, like there are now. It was by adults, for adults.

*none

R316 Jean Arthur had a TV show in the 60s, it flopped.

But r317 there still weren't a lot of starring roles for an older actress. Someone like Bette Davis or Joan Crawford wasn't going to play Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies

R320 No, I'll give you that. Stanwyck had The Big Valley (and her earlier anthology series) so obviously she was an exception. Loretta Young was another - and Ann Sothern, Eve Arden. But TV wasn't really an appropriate medium for some of the big movie stars. There's a pilot for a Bette Davis series called The Decorator, on YouTube. It's a mildly campy idea for a series - a decorator comes into people's lives and gets involved while doing over their houses. But Bette Davis as an interior decorator, on a weekly series? It just seems to only use a small amount of her talent or range.

Bette did finally get a series - Hotel. Then she ended up leaving it pretty quickly. I forget why. Bette had kind of a history of jumping ship on certain projects. Theater, mainly.

Stanwyck also seemed like she was on Wagon Train a lot.

I think Bette left Hotel because of a series of strokes after filming the pilot episode.

Bette was diagnosed with breast cancer and had a mastectomy. Several days later, while she was still in the hospital, Bette suffered from wild hallucinations, intense itching all over her body and then had three strokes. The third stroke was the one that caused the facial paralysis.

All of that happened because Bette was going through alcohol withdrawal and for God only knows what reason none of the hospital staff recognized it. It could've all been easily prevented had the hospital staff been competent.

R324, At that same time, Bette fell and broke her hip, causing her to limp until she died in 1989.

Like most aspects of American culture, the1960s saw radical changes as the decade continued. By1970 it seemed like everything was geared to appeal to teenagers and 20-somethings.

R326. That was more the 80s. I was a teenager trying to get acting jobs in the 70s and there was very little. PLaying people's kids, if that. Happy Days sort of started a trend, but it was slow to catch on.

R316: The size of the audience rather than the demographic composition mattered most until well into the 60s. Advertisers continued to "sponsor" shows and specific time slots. Spot advertising rose with more demographic targeting. The actors who went into tv early were B-picture types (Lucy, Donna Reed, Ronald Reagan) or somewhat over the hill A-listers (Dick Powell, Robert Montgomery, Loretta Young, Stanwyck--by the end of the 50s). The biggest names always stayed away beyond cameos (John Wayne, for instance) but slowly, they were willing to do tv.

"A Pocket Full of Miracles" was Capra's last film. He did an industrial film for the NY World's Fair , but nothing else after that. Apparently Capra had lots of literal headaches dealing with Ford and Davis. The film may have made money but it was a critical failure. It was the last in a series of re-done Robert Riskin stories (Riskin was his one time collaborator at Columbia). Ironically, he never visited Riskin during his long convalescence after his 1950 stroke and didn't attend Riskin's funeral. The two had stopped working together because Risikin felt Capra took too much credit, although continued to speak highly of Capra as a collaborator and one time friend.

June Allyson was another star who did a TV series for two seasons, produced by her husband Dick Powell. They made a lot of money from TV and June was set for life. I think June actually lost her signature voice during the series and it is strange to hear her with a normal sounding one for a while before she regained the croak.

R330, If June was set for life, why did she appear in those embarrassing Depends commercials?

as a public service. her mum encouraged her also since she needed them.

[quote]he film may have made money but it was a critical failure

SO?

MUST SEE! Barbara Stanwyck on The Dick Powell Theatre 1962. Skip to the 15:00 mark

R316 Some of those actresses retired early for other reasons. Tierney was mentally ill and tried to commit suicide. Hayward was dying from cancer by the end. Arthur was a nervous wreck and had intense stage fright which is why she quit movies and would often leave stage shows she was in (Born Yesterday originally starred her on stage before she couldn't take it anymore and quit). Jones' daughter committed suicide and she seemed to have mental issues of her own based on her pathological need to always appear clean and fresh.

R335 . . .

"Jennifer Jones suffered from mental health problems during her life and survived a 1967 suicide attempt in which she jumped from a cliff in Malibu Beach."

Just goes to show how wildly popular I Love Lucy was that they could bag 3 of the biggest movie stars of the time, William Holden, John Wayne and Rock Hudson to guest star on the show in the mid-1950s.

The 1950s was Hayward's busiest and best decade in Hollywood. She didn't need to appear on TV.

R338, She was never a WML? mystery.guest.

Who was it who said after Susan won for I Want to Live! now we can all relax since Susan has her Oscar?

Never, r339. Sadly. Nor Stanwyck.

I think it was unusual at the time that an actor or actress could be nominated so many times and not win. Almost an embarrassment for the Academy, believe it or not. Thus the sigh of relief, r340.

At least Susan actually won a competitive Oscar. And she had 5 nominations compared to Barbara's 4.

Susan winning her Oscar.

R342 Clearly didn't apply to Deborah Kerr who was nominated 6 times and never won. Or for that matter, Thelma Ritter in the supporting actress category.

Ooh Susan pulls back when Km Novak tries to kiss her. She just wants the Oscar.

R343. So by that metric Renee Zellweger is three times the actress Stanwyck was and Sandra Bullock was as good an actress as Hayward?

Didn't Zellweger only win twice? For Judy and Cold Mountain (supporting)?

True about Kerr and Ritter but their multiple non-wins didn't come before Hayward's non-wins. Of course, by the 70s/80s/90s there were several actors with multiple non-wins like Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole. But Hayward was the leader in that distinction.

R348 In my day a real star would never let herself be put in the supporting category.

R349 Deborah Kerr's 6 nominations were from 1950 to 1961. Susan's 5 nominations were from 1947 to 1958. That's not much of a difference in time. Similarly, Thelma's 6 nominations were from 1950 to 1962.

Did anyone seen Untamed last night with Susan and Tyrone Power?

[quote]If June was set for life, why did she appear in those embarrassing Depends commercials?

She just wanted to help other people who couldn't stop shitting their pants.

But the point is, r351, Hayward won in 1958, allowing Hollywood to breathe a sigh of relief. They couldn't do that for Kerr or Ritter in 1958. Or ever for that matter.

R354 That's Hollywood's own fault. Kerr should have won for The Sundowners which was her last Oscar nominated movie but that was the year Liz Taylor nearly died.

I don't disagree, r355!

Like the movie or not but Susan Hayward's part and performance in I Want to Live would win any major actress an Oscar right now. Today. It's very showy and emotional - we see the humanity in the whore, she suffers and fumes and the film is nicely stylized to hide that she's a bad person and murderer. Back then it was just another Susan Hayward movie.

Nowadays - Meryl would be dying her hair red, badmouthing Emma Stone and FAPPENING Jennifer Lawrence. She'd invite a Bronx mafia prostitute to live with her for 3 months for a part like that.

Flaming Scarlet is what they call it when I wear RED!

R357 More like Meryl badmouthing Emma Thompson. I've never forgiven that bitch for denouncing Walt Disney and ruining any chances for Saving Mr. Banks to get Oscar nominations, including Emma Thompson for Best Actress.

“Where Love Has Gone” is streaming for free on TubiTV!

Not to take anything away from Hayward's I Want to Live performance because she was magnificent in the role but political events at the time - Hollywood's general opposition to capital punishment - surely influenced at least some Academy voters.

[Quote] While in San Quentin, Caryl Chessman wrote four books. Cell 2455, Death Row, published in 1954; Trial by Ordeal, published in 1955; The Face of Justice, published in 1957; and The Kid Was a Killer, published in 1960. Each of the books became national and international bestsellers and made Chessman wealthy.Q

Hollywood was appalled by capital punishment and IWTL is a testament to this sentiment.

Thanks, R359.

Hugh O'Brian's bulge in his SPEEDO is a highlight, along with Lana's Edith Head wardrobe.

Hugh O'Brian's bulge in his YELLOW SPEEDO can only be seen opposite Lana Turner in LOVE HAS MANY FACES, r361.

Why was it ok for Jerry Lewis to bring back Susan for a bow for her Oscar win? Was this unprecedented? Yes you could tell from the whooping and applause when her name was announced that it was a popular win but the bow as well? I'm not sure of the timing but I think it had been a while since her publicised suicide attempt.

R362, Oops, I got my titles confused.

re the suicide attempt - it was April 26, 1955.

The public was aware of her suicide attempt?. Wow. Didn't know that.

I Want To Live is still a harrowing film in many ways and SH was great in it. She deserved the award. She supposedly really lived her roles and was not one (like Stanwyck) to hang around on the set or make chit chat. I. e. she probably didn't have the huge natural talent and technique of BS and had to emotionally drain herself for a role. I mean, I could be wrong, but from what I've read, I get that impression. I think she's a bit too raw, emotionally, for me. Same with I'll Cry Tomorrow. She didn't "overact", but I feel like, sis, dial it back a few notches, emotionally. Subtlety was not her strong suit.

Bosley Crowther really let Susan Hayward have it in his “New York Times” review of “Stolen Hours”. I always thought the opening shot of Hayward grandly making her way through a party was an unintentional hoot, so it was a kick to see that Crowther noticed it, too!

For the most part, Bosley Crowther was a ignoramus and a complete dick.

And Bodley was heterosexual?

Bosley not Bodley.

Bosley Crowther's grandson Welles Crowther was "the man in the red bandana" who saved several peoples' lives in the WTC on 9/11, before he was killed in the collapse.

Press on SH suicide attempt.

Looking back at 1958 performances by actresses in American films, the one most remembered now as iconic and for the ages is Kim Novak's in Vertigo, not Hayward's in I want to Live. Certain irony that Novak helped present the award to Hayward.

Kim Novak was never taken seriously as an actress, even in VERTIGO. I think audiences then found her performance in it robotic or like she was sleep-walking. Which may have been intentional but nevertheless kept it out of consideration.

I think all the nominees had a good chance because they were all good perfomances. SUSAN HAYWARD I Want to Live! NOMINEES DEBORAH KERR Separate Tables SHIRLEY MACLAINE Some Came Running ROSALIND RUSSELL Auntie Mame ELIZABETH TAYLOR Cat on a Hot Tin Roof

Kim Novak was Columbia's number one star at the time so I'd say she was taken seriously.

Kim was not taken seriously by the Academy though, like Rita Hayworth, Columbia's former number one star. And much like Marilyn Monroe who was Fox's number one star, r376. MM would never have been considered for even an Oscar nom, even for Bus Stop, one of her few dramas.

Vertigo was a loan out to another studio. Columbia may not have been as invested in that. Cohn died around the time of the Oscars and the studio may have been operating less efficiently.

To me, the most interesting part of Oscar history is the hindsight issue. The Awards are of its time, but what may end up enduring could have been overlooked by the Academy at the time of initial release for a variety of factors--industry politics, what defined a quality movie or outstanding performance, the tastes of the era, and sometimes pure myopia. Susan Hayward may have won an Oscar, but Barbara Stanwyck, who didn't, has a more enduring and esteemed legacy in film history as an actress and star than Hayward.

I don't know about that.

Barbara's career was also 12 years longer than Susan's, r379.

It's ALWAYS like that, R379.

Let's remember Barbara was in a lot of mediocre films, because she liked to keep working and she also apparently made some rather poor choices of material - Oscar wins are for standout performances in standout films. She really didn't have a lot of Oscar-type performances. They don't give Oscars for The Bride Walks Out, Internes Can't Take Money, Always Goodbye, Breakfast For Two, Red Salute, The Bride Wore Boots, California, B. F.'s Daughter, The Other Love, The Lady Gambles, The Man With A Cloak, Blowing Wild, Escape To Burma, or Cattle Queen Of Montana.

The noms she got were for Stella Dallas (she's great in parts, overdoes other parts - it's an uneven film and an uneven performance - probably not her fault). Ball Of Fire - not that Oscar-worthy. Double Indemnity - I'd give it to her for that, but they didn't. And Sorry, Wrong Number, which is a very big performance in the part of an unlikeable woman. Not a great film and I wouldn't think she would have won.

She deserved a nom for The Lady Eve, for sure. I also like her Douglas Sirk Movies, and Union Pacific - and her Capra movies. But she was in a lot of second rate stuff for a great star.

I can see he getting one for The Lady Gambles. Reporter David Boothe (Robert Preston) is in Las Vegas covering a story. His wife, Joan (Barbara Stanwyck), looking for a story of her own, snoops around their hotel's casino with a concealed camera. The casino owner, Horace Corrigan (Stephen McNally), catches her, but, seeing that she is not a hustler, decides to provide her with some free chips so she can sample the casino's various games. She accepts, only to find gambling so engrossing that it might consume and destroy her life.

Stanwyck's lack of a long-term contract was probably one reason she never had an Oscar. Cary Grant also never won a competitive Oscar. The closest thing he had to a long-term contract was when he had a contract with Columbia which shared him with RKO. Columbia wasn't yet a major studio and RKO was the most poorly run of the "Big 5", so he never had a big PR machine behind him when he was nominated (Penny Serenade--Columbia; None but the Lonely Heart--RKO). Grant had arguably better material over his career, but I'd guess that male stars had better luck as non-exclusives, as well as longer careers in general than the the women.

R383, they DO give Oscars for performances such as The Strange Love of Martha Ivers. There are a handful of wartime and postwar melodramas she excelled in which could have gotten her an Oscar. I can easily see Stanwyck getting an Oscar for The Furies. Too bad it came out in 1950, a tough year. She wasn't nominated.

R359, Watched it last evening, the ultimate guilty pleasure.

For a movie made from a Harold Robbins book, Paramount went all out with an excellent director, Edward Dmytryk, costumes by Edith Head, an Oscar nominated theme song and a supporting cast of well known actors and actresses.

Stanwyck had a strong, independent streak, made even more-so because of her hard knock life. I wonder if that, especially being at the mercy of the foster care system, affected her decision to not sign a long term studio contract.

Where Love Has Gone is hilarious. There is one scene when Bette Davis is admonishing Susan and Susan has a smirk on her face showing how she can't be intimidated. In real life they disliked each other.

R388 could be overthinking it. Maybe she was just a smart lady.

In hindsight, Clark Gable and Claudette Colbert winning Oscars at small time studio Columbia for a comedy is pretty phenomenal. And Gable was assigned the role by his home studio to punish him so MGM sure wasn't rooting for him to win. I don't think Columbia was Claudette's home studio either (wasn't she at Paramount?).

How do all you experts explain their unusual wins? And why didn't those wins set an early precedent for more comedic roles to win Oscars? Curious about your opinions.

Davis and Hayward had their claws out while making Where Love Has Gone. As Davis got older, she became more and more cantankerous and difficult to work with. Of course all the booze didn't help.

By the late 1920s and the early 1930s, talkies Paramount Pictures brought in a range of powerful draws: Richard Arlen, Nancy Carroll, Maurice Chevalier, Gary Cooper, Marlene Dietrich, Charles Ruggles, Ruth Chatterton, William Powell, Mae West, Sylvia Sidney, Bing Crosby, Claudette Colbert, the Marx Brothers, W.C. Fields, Fredric March, Jack Oakie, Jeanette MacDonald (whose first two films were shot at Paramount's Astoria, New York, studio), Carole Lombard, George Raft, Miriam Hopkins, Cary Grant and Stuart Erwin, among them.

[quote]Stanwyck had a strong, independent streak, made even more-so because of her hard knock life

Always an excuse for an independent woman

R392, Davis was only 9 years older than Hayward and she played her mother.

As has been noted, she only did it to pay for B. D.'s lavish 1964 wedding.

Bette hated wearing the gray wig. She felt her character would have dyed her hair. But they wanted to emphasize the age difference.

Davis was only 10 years older than Teresa Wright, her daughter in "The Little Foxes".

So what? They're ACTORS.

For me, the handful of great Hayward performances I hold closer to my heart but Stanwyck overall has been in more great films and some of them (Stella Dallas in particular) are among my favorites of all time.

Stanwyck had the greater range without a doubt.

Stanwyck was a better actress, I don't know if her range was that much larger.

Susan

I had to vote for Barbara, who is one of the gratest actresses of all time. But Susan hawayward was fabulous. She's really great in her early films like "Deadline at dawn," but very soon after she becomes incredibly mannered. Yet those mannerisms are such a joy--no one ever had more fun gesturing extravagantly during her songs than she did in "I'll Cry Tomorrow" or "With a Song in My Heart."

* Susan Hayward, not "Susan hawayward."

Stanwyck never had a long-term studio contract which made it difficult for her to win a competitive Oscar. She freelanced instead. Hayward was the biggest name at 20th Century Fox before Marilyn Monroe, although 20th was a second string among the majors.

Stanwyck played a wider range of roles, but both were pretty "mannered" by the time they got into tv. Hayward seemed at her best with "tough women in jeopardy", although by "Valley of the Dolls", she seemed to have made it into camp.

Anne Baxter was annoying. She's oddly the weakest thing in "All About Eve", except maybe Hugh Marlowe. The small parts are all great, along with Davis.