Xi is using Putin

Whether Russia waltzes into Ukraine or not is irrelevant. The "war" has already been one by China, who showed the world that conventional warfare is dead and how easy it is to dominate and subsume with a couple of infected people with passports and plane tickets.

Why will it weaken the US, OP?

[quote] The "war" has already been one

Oh for fuck's sakes! won won won won won won won

It does seem weird that as far as we know, the US's tactics still seem to be to blow things up as we become more vulnerable to Russian cyberattacks and Chinese tech and potentially biological warfare. All's fair in war and everyone who engages in war knows it. I think both China and Russia are capable of unleashing disease as a weapon to (China) conquer or (Russia) destroy.

I mean you have to hand it to China. First they unleash a novel virus, then provide everything from paper protection gear to vaccines to rapid Covid tests to the infected countries.

If anyone doesn't realize how much power China has now, what really shows it is how non-Chinese people yield to Chinese authority.

John Cena memorized an apology in Chinese to the Chinese government after his career was threatened for saying the wrong thing.

I listen to a screenwriting podcast and the hosts discussed in one episode what an enormous share of Hollywood productions Chinese investors underwrite now. Because they do, studios agree not to speak of China in movies and TV productions in any kind of critical terms—only flattery, as loyal subjects would do. According to the podcast, we will never see Chinese villains in big-budget movies because of this—only Russian, Middle Eastern, Central American and North Korean. And they said the last movie that did depict Chinese villains was absolutely destroyed by the Chinese government via sabotaging business deals, including killing the careers of the actors who starred in the movie.

Most people think entertainment is solely superficial. It's not. Nazis prioritized film as propaganda and they got the idea to do so from the U.S. because American films exported globally have always promoted that the US identity is "truth, justice and the American way."

The Chinese government's co-opting of our entertainment media through financial investments is very foreboding. TV, movies and music have been a HUGE and mostly unrecognized part of building the USA's global identity and now China is using the American platforms to disseminate its propaganda.

Also, when TikTok went global a couple of years ago all western countries' governments sounded the alarm about its insidious intentions, being controlled by the Chinese government. Within a few months, every corporation was selling on TikTok and it is now a primary means of advertising to coveted young people. Companies will do the bidding of Chinese powers to stay on the platform when it comes down to it.

Google has acquiesced to China and now is honoring and working with the government as a partner in its authoritarian control. So is Apple.

China is going to take over as the global superpower that calls all the shots without any doubt. I predict the US will find ourselves backed against a wall in a long-term defensive posturing and we will lose economic and social leverage. It's already happening. And since our government has advanced from being not only subtly corrupt but explicitly corrupt and lawless, our people are not going to have the collective wills to fight for it.

R2 hi Bootsy!

The highest form of strength is to be able to stop other countries from going to war without going to war yourself. If Russia had a leader with reasonable self interest Russia wouldn’t be on the verge of invading Ukraine. It’s a catastrophic decision for Russia and Russians. But because Putin appears to be on Quixotic quest to re-create the USSR, it may appear, however wrongly, that somehow the NATO members have lost that strength. Xi has turned Putin into his own personal suicide bomber. And there’s limited reasoning with a suicide bomber.

Congress needs to pass the Build Back Better act components that cover renewables and chip manufacturing immediately. Any person in Congress who opposes those portions of the bill should be viewed with suspicion.

R7 Welp, nothing gets Congress and the American public to galvanize like WAR WAR WAR. In the long run, wars are divisive. In the immediate term, politicians love war and many citizens love war because it taps into their violent and tribal instinct. People become patriotic when making a grand violent gesture. People eagerly ship off their children to die and feel very important about it. Notably, no one who authorizes war sends their children to die, go figure.

The National Security Council has arrived at the WH to meet with President Biden. Putin is locked and loaded and ready to strike soon.

Technological innovation races can be just as galvanizing as the space race showed us.

There isn't going to be a war in Ukraine. Both the US/Nato and Russia are taking things to the brink in order to gain leverage in tough negotiations on a new European security architecture. So far, Russia has gained far more leverage in the past few weeks, especially the past few days. Nato is divided over what type of agreement to make with Putin. The US is more willing to compromise and take account of Russia's concerns. Some countries in Nato want to take a more hard-line position, which will only backfire on them. As a result of this disagreement, the US and Nato both sent separate and slightly conflicting negotiation proposals to Russia. Russia has asked for one set of negotiating proposals from the west. The whole reason negotiations haven't started yet is because Nato is split and has not been able to present workable proposals.

The US wants to "sort out" Europe in order then to be able to use Nato in the Indo-China region against China. This is very naive, in my opinion.

They’re building chip plants in US…we won’t be beholden to China for long

Is “Xi” a new non-binary pronoun?

The US will go to war with China over Taiwan. Europe will be on their own battling Russia

The US will not go to war with China. China owns us. Most Americans will not realize it for a long time, but at some point there will be awakening that our country has been the frog in the simmering pot.

But shithole China will destroy itself with a population full of myopic chain smokers and fewer women to breed.

Everyone on this thread needs to read this article. It's about the man (NOT Xi) who is behind China's current worldview.

Don’t fuck with China. Be their frenemy instead

Like Americunts know anything about global politics. Shut your black ass up, OP. Someone needs to end you.

I know, right? Suddenly they're bff's.

I look for China to invade Taiwan vewy vewy shortly.

I was not aware I had a black ass to shut up, but do tell me about R19. You sound delightful.

[quote] I look for China to invade Taiwan vewy vewy shortly.

Not a chance. Unlike Ukraine, the U.S. military WILL defend against any attack on Taiwan. That’s been U.S. policy since 1949.

That’s a great article R17.

R17 such a great article 👍

Why isn’t the USA mass producing chips? We should dominate the world market on this, or at least for our own use.

We should R25. If you are in a state with Republican representatives please call/write and let them know that this is a matter of national security and they should impeding Biden on this.

Stop impeding

I have to say I think US/NATO countries are doing better than I anticipated.

Russia could’ve been one of the wealthiest nations in the world, but the abundance of oil and gas made them lazy and they never bothered to develop other industries.

R29 they didn't really care as long as the oligarchs and government could milk the gas money. The Russian government never cared about its people both now and forever. First, it was the tsars then the Soviet Union, and now Putin. The people in Russia have always been poor while its leaders robbed the country.

So, as part of a “new deal” between China and Russia, will Anna Netrebko go to sing with the Beijing Opera Company?

In your wet dream, OP.

You are all China's bitches.

[quote]Russia could’ve been one of the wealthiest nations in the world, but the abundance of oil and gas made them lazy and they never bothered to develop other industries.

Socialism prevents the development of markets.

They haven’t been “socialist” in three decades though.

This will make Godzilla vs. Gamera look like child's play!

I'm surprised that Putin has asked China for help with weapons. It seems that he would think it makes him look weak. Confused.

No they went from socialism, with a few years of brake under Yeltsin's attempts at democracy, straight to oligarchy. They ever had a market economy that served the country, the people. What they have now is a kleptocracy.

I've been thinking about the different fundamental views of nation building for quite some time. I know not everything is right in the West, but overall democracy still functions in the US, EU, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea. We have stability, quality of life, human rights, freedom of press and speech, individual freedom etc. Far better than in places like China, Russia, Iran. Western countries are powerful and most international established laws are based on western values, on what I perceive as good values.

Russia could have gone in that direction, build a just country, where all citizens have a fair chance and equal opportunity. Russia had many distinguished artists, scientists, philosophers, thinkers that could have contributed to making Russia a great nation. But Putin was incapable of nation building because he was greedy and power hungry. He didn't trust democracy and probably rejected it just because that was a concept the West came up with and he didn't want to admit that socialism is a failed concept.

I find it all a bit sad that simple pettiness and jealousy prevented Russia from becoming a great nation.

If it is going to weaken the US then why have we been pushing to get into this kind of thing with Russia? It was clear when Hilary was running that she and others were going to find a way to get into some military action with Putin. Trump only postponed what the hawks were chomping at the bit for.

If China says no to helping Russia financing this war it will be a BIG, BIG win for Joe Biden. If China will help Russia, and I expect they will, we're in a whole dangerous mess in term of international power struggle.

REUTERS: A Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson has said assertions from US officials that Russia asked Beijing for military equipment for its campaign in Ukraine were “disinformation” from the US.

The comments came during a regular Chinese foreign ministry briefing in Beijing, Reuters reported.

China does not want to go to involve itself in Putin's war. Nobody believes in unifying the old Russia, it's a stupid reason to go to war. They do not value strife. The whole world is against the Ukraine War and it looks bad on them if they help Putin. Their primary focus is having a comfortable economy. The USA still has the largest GDP and it's the American consumer that drives the economy. China gets most of its wealth from the American consumer and they wouldn't want to ruffle those feathers right now.

China and Russia want to replace the US dollar but it's hard to do. The USA must start investing in Renewable Energy. China may be the leader but the USA, Canada and Europe are not far behind.

A sign that Beijing is NOT going to support Russia and may instead broker a peace agreement.

The writer of this OpEd is based on Beijing and is an advisor to China’s government. There is no way he would have written this without the tacit approval of China’s leadership.

Would you be nice enough to post it here r42, that link won't load.

It’s Time to Offer Russia an Offramp. China Can Help With That.

By Wang Huiyao Dr. Wang is the founder and president of the Center for China and Globalization, a nongovernmental think tank based in Beijing.

Casualties are mounting in Ukraine. Bombs continue to fall. More than 2 million refugees have fled the fighting. Vladimir Putin seems to have assumed he could get a swift victory, underestimating the fierce resistance from Ukraine. Two weeks in, Russia is intensifying its assault on Ukraine, and Western nations in turn are intensifying their financial and economic punishments against Russia, including by triggering the financial “nuclear option” — banning some Russian banks from the SWIFT payment system. Meanwhile, Mr. Putin has put his actual nuclear forces on high alert.

We are now in an escalatory spiral. Mounting pressure on Mr. Putin will likely make the situation more dangerous as Russia’s leader feels pushed to take increasingly extreme measures — such as what we’ve seen in the past few days with the Russian army’s siege tactics and attacks on civilian areas. And so, unpalatable as some in the West may find the idea, it is time to offer the Russian leader an offramp with China’s help. On Tuesday, President Xi Jinping of China held a virtual summit with President Emmanuel Macron of France and Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany, urging a diplomatic solution. The United States and its allies might be reluctant to have China play any role in this crisis, given that they view Beijing as a strategic rival. That’s foolish and shortsighted; the conflict’s immediate dangers far outweigh any competitive considerations. Ukraine itself sees the potential of Chinese-led conflict resolution.

So far, China has called for dialogue and says it supports humanitarian aid efforts. But Beijing’s interests in more proactive involvement are growing by the day.

China has a significant economic interest in a quick resolution to the Russian-Ukrainian war. China enjoys strong ties with Russia and Ukraine and is both countries’ largest single trading partner, though each trades more with the E.U. bloc than with China. Russia and Ukraine are crucial components of the Belt and Road infrastructure program as well as conduits for China’s trade with Europe. China-Europe rail transports have experienced a hundredfold increase since the beginning of the 2010s, but the ongoing conflict threatens to disrupt these trade flows.

China is also uniquely positioned to act as a neutral mediator between a Western-supported Ukraine and Russia. Yes, Beijing and Moscow have a strong and growing relationship, especially in the economic realm. China’s demand for resources that Russia has in abundance — food and energy — as well as a mutual dissatisfaction with the current state of the U.S.-led world order have increasingly drawn the two countries together. This alliance was cemented when Mr. Putin and Mr. Xi met last month and issued a joint statement underscoring their deep ties and reaffirming a partnership with “no forbidden zones.”

(cont'd)

It is not in Beijing’s interests to rely solely on an anti-Western alliance with Moscow. Russia may possess a mighty military, but its economy is in long-term structural decline, with a G.D.P. not much larger than that of Spain. For all the talk of ties with Moscow, it is worth remembering that China’s economic interests with Russia are dwarfed by those it shares with the West. In 2021, trade between China and Russia may have jumped by 36 percent compared to the prior year, to $147 billion — but that’s still less than a tenth of the combined trade with the United States ($657 billion) and European Union ($828 billion).

Even if China isn’t joining in the sanctions, it is possible that Chinese businesses and banks will decrease involvement with Russia to avoid a backlash in other, more important markets. As Russia becomes isolated from the world economy, China will not want to shoulder Russia’s economic burden alone. The prospect of a growing economic relationship between Moscow and Beijing may be threatening to the West, but from Mr. Putin’s perspective, it provides China with leverage over him in potential negotiations. As he and his country face increasing isolation, he can’t afford to lose China, too.

There are also political reasons China wants this conflict to end in a way that is appealing to all involved. The longer the war lasts, the more it will reinvigorate the Western alliance around the idea of a values-based confrontation between East and West, bringing the United States and the European Union into even closer alignment while driving military budgets up around the globe. That is not good for China, which would prefer to maintain lucrative economic ties with the West and focus its resources on domestic development.

At a time when China faces increasing global criticism for its human rights violations, mediating an end to this conflict could help improve the country’s standing with the West. Beijing has long striven to convince political and business elites in Europe and America that the rise of China does not present a threat. Support for Russian aggression — even perceived support — threatens to undermine that assertion. By contrast, playing a constructive role in ending the war could help cast China as a strategic and not just economic partner.

Ideologically, China has common ground with both Ukraine and Russia. China deeply values the principle of state sovereignty and has long opposed outside interference in what it considers internal affairs such as Taiwan. Last month, Foreign Minister Wang Yi of China once again called for a global respect of territorial integrity, saying, “Ukraine is no exception.” In this way, at least, Mr. Putin’s invasion directly undercuts one of China’s key values. China — like Russia — is wary of pro-democratic Western influence globally. So far, Chinese media has avoided criticism of Russia and even adopted Moscow’s narrative of the war. The two countries share grievances over perceived Western hostility and hypocrisy. Framing the invasion as anti-West and anti-NATO helps justify Mr. Putin’s action to a domestic audience.

(cont'd)

The longer the war goes on, though, China may find itself in a position of diminishing returns in its close relationship with Russia. This makes the argument for Beijing to take on an active mediation role even more compelling.

What form could mediation take? Any serious resolution would have to involve the United States and the European Union as key actors in European security arrangements. Beijing could help to broker an immediate cease-fire as a prelude to talks among Russia, Ukraine, the United States, the European Union and China.

Beijing’s goal would be to find a solution that gives Mr. Putin sufficient security assurances that can be presented as a win to his domestic audience while protecting Ukraine’s core sovereignty and NATO’s open-door policy. Finding a landing zone for such an agreement is challenging but not impossible. Some creative diplomacy could solve this, such as a formula for NATO expansion that rules out Ukrainian membership in practice while preserving its sovereignty and NATO principles in theory.

Securing a multilateral resolution to the crisis in Ukraine will be a tough and risky challenge, but there is no country better placed to do so than China.

R46, that sounds good, but as long as China is willing to provide arms to Russia so it can continue its attack on Ukraine—until weeks ago one of China’s largest trading partners—it doesn’t mean much.

“China buys certain weapons from Russia, especially advanced fighter aircraft and surface-to-air missile systems, said Taylor Fravel, a political science professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who specializes in Chinese defense.

“As far as I know, China does not sell any weapons systems to Russia,” Fravel said. “In other words, Russia has enabled China’s military modernization but China so far has not contributed much to the development of Russia’s armed forces, apart from the profits of Russian weapons sales, which can be reinvested to improve Russian capabilities.”

If China lent military aid to Russia, it would be a reversal of their usual economic pattern. Traditionally they import weapons from Russia but don’t export weapons to Russia.

If we ever turn solar we'll have to buy all the equipment from Jinah.

“Among the assistance Russia requested was pre-packaged, non-perishable military food kits, known in the US as "meal, ready-to-eat," or MREs, according to two sources familiar with the matter. The request underscores the basic logistical challenges that military analysts and officials say have stymied Russian progress in Ukraine -- and raises questions about the fundamental readiness of the Russian military.

Forward-deployed units have routinely outstripped their supply convoys and open source reports have shown Russian troops breaking into grocery stores in search of food as the invasion has progressed. One of the sources suggested that food might be a request that China would be willing to meet, because it stops short of lethal assistance that would be seen as deeply provocative by the west.“

So China may have been asked for MREs, since Russia had been giving their troops food that expired 7 years ago.

I'm not in favor of China having much involvement in the Ukraine - Russia peace talks.

You can't trust them because they tacitly approve of the invasion.

Furthermore, their main goal is always opportunism. They have plans to annex Taiwan, they did not acknowledge Hong Kong's autonomous status and they don't understand or accept Ukraine's position being a free and democratic country.

The idea that a dictatorship should lead negotiations regarding Ukraine's future seems preposterous to me.

Can we now put a nail in the coffin of the “capitalism leads to democracy” myth? We basically handed China economic supremacy because politicians believed capitalism would dictate democracy and freedom. It’s just shown how capitalism is as much a rigged system as socialism or communism, a few people benefit - the majority just become slaves who work all the time.

[quote]because politicians believed capitalism would dictate democracy and freedom

This has nothing to do with capitalism, the West believed trade would lead to more democracy.

[quote]r11 There isn't going to be a war in Ukraine.

This aged well...

R54, sorry, I should have completed that sentence with "there isn't going to be a war in Ukraine unless the west takes things to the brink because they think that Putin will blink, which he won't". Now that the US and certain Nato countries have tried a trick that backfired, Russia will end up with an agreement on Ukraine that is to its satisfaction and which Ukraine could have agreed to if Nato hadn't dragged things to the brink in its own, separate negotiations with Russia, in which Nato was insisting that any country can choose to join Nato. The reason Russia has been doing so badly is precisely because it wasn't preparing for a war.

While I agree that each country should be able to make its own sovereign decisions, Nato was not willing to accept Ukraine for at least 15 years anyway. Nato could have used creative ambiguity on this issue and the natural passing of time would have got Ukraine into a situation whereby it would have been able to make that decision for itself in about 15 years, when Putin would also be out of office. Now Ukraine is going to have to accept a settlement whereby it agrees not to seek to join Nato.

Nice save, R55, but none of your prognostications are aging particularly well.

Thanks, ElderLez, for linking to this thread and thereby somewhat salvaging the other thread! This is quite the trip down memory lane.

Did Ukraine join Nato, r56?

Finland did! Who would have imagined that? What a extraordinary embarrassment for Russia

Finland hasn't joined Nato yet, r58, and its membership would do nothing for Ukraine. Finland has also said that it won't host Nato bases, accept nuclear weapons or militarise its border with Russia, so Finland joining Nato doesn't change anything in material terms for Russia.

The west imagining we're scoring points against Putin really does not make us safer.

How will the US and Europe weaken OP?

Do you think the US and Europe have been strengthened, r60?

I think it’s been a mixed bag on that front R60.

So for Xi: 1) Inflation HAS weakened Western economies 2) Every dollar spent on and resource sent to Ukraine becomes unavailable to defend Taiwan unless replaced, which costs $$ 3) fear of a cold winter in Europe

Against 1) Relatively strong, effective support by NATO countries for Ukraine 2) NAFO, the cutest war propaganda ever - I am sure those Shiba Inus would be there for Taiwan 3) Republicans momentarily had a moment of sanity and helped pass the CHIPs act - this desperately needed legislation might never have gotten through the filibuster if it weren’t for the invasion. 4) it seems like Xi thought he was going to be able to control where Ukraine’s wheat went, but Putin’s been too much of a loose cannon to make that happen.

Up in the air: If the war grinds on with no clear victory for more than a year or Russia makes a permanent come-back that’s a public relations win for Xi..

R59 it is embarrassing. It undermines one of the main “justifications” for invading Ukraine and it makes threatening Finland more costly.

Why the fuck doesn't China grow their own fucking wheat?

They do R61, but they eat most of it themselves. Ukraine exports wheat to low income countries. Control Ukraine’s wheat, control low income food insecure countries.

[quote] Russia could’ve been one of the wealthiest nations in the world,

Russians prefer to never do anything legitimately -- even when that's an easy option. Corruption seems embedded into their DNA.

And why does China want to control low income, food insecure countries?

R62, if you'd followed the news prior to the war closely you'd have noticed that Russia's actual main interest was not necessarily to prevent Nato expansion as a principle (beyond Ukraine, although Nato never wanted to accept Ukraine as a member and will not accept as a member) but the principle of indivisibility of security, i.e. equal forces on both sides of the border. If Finland isn't going to militarise its border or point weapons at Russia, then Russia couldn't care less about Finland joining Nato.

Been reading more and more stories recently about South Korea being annoyed at the US, especially with US efforts to create alliances against China in Asia. South Korea fears the US is trying to replicate the Europe/Nato/Ukraine/Russia thing in Asia, with an Asian-US alliance/Taiwan/China scenario. It's not a great sign if the US's closest allies in Asia are looking at Europe-US/Ukraine/Russia, interpreting it as a conflict that the US has had a great role in causing, perceiving that it's damaging Europe and will have a long-term detrimental effect on Europe, and then interpreting US moves against China in Asia, supposedly in defence of Taiwan, as being the same as US moves against Russia, which have caused havoc in Europe.

I love that Russia has accepted its role as China's bitch.

South Korea, China to ‘Closely Communicate’ on US Missile Shield

South Korea wants to expand common interests with China

The meeting took place after Yoon snubbed Pelosi in August

By Jeong-Ho Lee 16 September 2022 at 13:25 EEST

South Korean President Yoon Suk Yeol told Li Zhanshu, China’s top legislator, that he doesn’t want a US-made missile shield deployed by Seoul to become “an obstacle to relations” after Beijing slammed its use.

The talks on Friday in Seoul with China’s National People’s Congress chairman took place after Yoon floated expanding the system known as Thaad -- Terminal High Altitude Area Defense. Li agreed with Yoon to continue to “closely communicate” regarding the matter, a statement from South Korea’s presidential office said.

Yoon has been trying to balance relations between its long-standing US ally and China, South Korea’s biggest trading partner. The president sent ripples through relations with Washington when he decided against having a face-to-face meeting with US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi during a trip to Seoul last month. The snub of the first sitting House speaker to visit the country in about 20 years drew criticism from members of South Korea’s opposition and Yoon’s own conservative party.

Yoon has pledged make the current Thaad system fully operational and install another unit in the Seoul area. China objects to the shield over concerns its powerful radar would allow spying on its own missile systems.

“I highly appreciate your role in developing our bilateral relations,” Yoon said to Li during the meeting, according to South Korea’s presidential office. Li thanked Yoon for taking time to have talks, the office said.

Yoon’s office earlier said the president plans to meet US President Joe Biden next week when he travels to New York for a session of the United Nations General Assembly.

South Korea has shown its displeasure over the Inflation Reduction Act signed last month by Biden, which includes tax credits of as much as $7,500 for purchases of electric vehicles made in North America. That could disadvantage major South Korean brands like Hyundai and Kia, which don’t have operational EV plants in the US.

That friction risks Biden’s efforts to build a tighter network of partners to counter China’s rising influence. Yoon’s administration has remained non-committal about joining Biden’s Chip 4 Alliance, a new group of major powers that also includes the US, Taiwan and Japan and is aimed at safeguarding the supply of semiconductors. China’s opposition to the move could blow back on South Korea’s chipmakers.

Since coming to office in May on pledges to take a tougher line with Beijing, Yoon has stepped up security cooperation with the US and sought to align his country more closely with America’s allies in Europe -- attending a NATO summit in June.

Posted on the main Ukraine thread as well, but when a country is reduced to using dishwasher chips to run its military….

We need to prepare for a post-fossil fuel world. We (the US) could be a global leader in this. However, there are powerful entities who stand to lose from this transition. Knowledge is power. This podcast has been immensely helpful for me. Please share with any and all. We are going tom make it through this possibly painful transition through ***COOPERATION.***