Cleopatra (1963)

OP, you may find this thread of interest.

I saw it twice in theaters when they had its 50th anniversary Todd AO restoration. It was enormously entertaining. Very very bad PR because of that minx Liz. But she's terrific. I used to watch bits of it on TV but it seemed deadly and as bad as they said. Not true at all.

I agree, R1.

This faulty dog of a movie doesn't require new, repetitive analysis after only 18 months.

,,,,,

At the time it was released it was the most expensive film ever made. It had a big box office but it just cost too much.

Roddy McDowall got so bored sitting around waiting for Liz and Dick to shoot a scene he begged the studio to let him do a quick cameo in The Longest Day so he'd have something to do

It's free to stream on the Movielandtv app now as are The Ten Commandments, Gone with the Wind, and lots of other great films of yore. Much more content than GUI suggests. Best to use search function.

I loved the movie...except every time Elizabeth opened he mouth. She looked the part for sure. But Jaysus her voice was horrible. you'd think even back then sound engineers could have done something with her voice. It spoils everything.

I remember seeing it as a kid with me Mum. There was an intermission to load up on snacks. On drag night at the Galleon in the SF Tenderloin bar, all the “girls” wore big, blue La Liz eye shadow.

R8 Liz spoke like a fishwife.

Manckiewicz was obviously hearing-impaired as well as ludicrously loquacious.

He chose a musician to provide an ugly 20th century soundtrack.

He cast that film 'Julius Caesar' in 1954 with the most ill-matched actors possible.

Alex North's score sucked. Miklos Rozsa was still around and could have elevated the movie's romantic overtones.

The Miklos Rozsa score to 'Ben-Hur' was genius.

William Wyler's use of an ethnically-based cast was genius compared to Manckiewicz' crazy mulatto cast.

The crazy mulatto supporting cast was comprised of Liz's buddies and Dick's lackeys.

'He chose a musician to provide an ugly 20th century soundtrack.'

An odd thing to say considering North is not only considered one of the greatest composers for the cinema but also one of the most innovative.

Love the TV tower in the background as the Cleopatra's barge sails out...

It was a big, bloated mess. A very boring movie.

It's not as boring on a huge screen. The spectacle is quite impressive in 70mm.

[quote] North is … one of the most innovative

Is that innovative for 20th century USA or First century B.C. Egypt?

Nobody ever mentions my hidden acting prowess!

It didn’t fail it was just too expensive of a movie to make it’s money back at that time.

The movie was a soap opera / fashion show that barely touched the surface of Cleopatra’s story. I mean they left the whole story out!

That’s why I hope Gal Gagot’s Cleopatra tells it. I’d love to see Arsinoe and Fulvia on screen, I’d love to see the Ptolemy brothers, Herod the Great, Cicero, the Battle of Alexandria, the Battle of Phillipi, etc.

I did it better, cunts.

Vivien did it better

It eventually made a profit, so financially it’s not a failure. If you like the cast playing dress up it’s worth a look. I can understand the Rex Harrison Oscar nom, but the picture itself being nominated was ridiculous. Could’ve used a good editor. But these bloated big budget films were in vogue then so…

OH ATNNTHOOOOONYEEEE!!!

The first half with Harrison is watchable the second un.

Liz made 7.5 million off this shit show, and that's 6.5 million more than the contract paid. Overtime at 50k per week and 10 % of the absolute gross.

[quote] The first half with Harrison is watchable the second un.

Precisely. The intent was to make and separately release TWO films which together would have run a bit over six hours. When it became the Dick and Liz show the studio assumed the public would not bother to watch Harrison carrying Part One so they mashed the two into one film. I turn it off after Caesar dies.

Most of Martin Landau's part as General Rufio was left on the cutting room floor. Someday I wish they'd release some of what was cut. Martin was quite good here.

Critics disliked the movie. One of them said Liz Taylor was "overweight and over paid."

These people who complain about it haven't seen it in Todd AO. They've watched it on TV. Lawrence of Arabia on TV is a snooze.

[quote] Most of Martin Landau's part as General Rufio was left on the cutting room floor.

Most of Pamela Brown was down there with him

I was prepared to watch it out of curiosity, but it’s 4 hours!

R9 OMG The Galleon! What a delicious dive. I wonder is it still operating?

Cleopatra was the most successful movie of the year it was released. Much of it was a slog. My god those awful pastel sets.

But that entrance into Rome--magnificent

^ R32 here. Oops! I was thinking of the Gangway on Larkin Street.

Here's Clerk's spectacular entrance to Rome for anyone who hasn't seen it

^ fuckin spell check...CLEO's entrance....

Cleo was the highlight of HBO’s ROME. Scrawny and not very glamorous.

That scene is very well done R36 . Neither actor is classic movie star beautiful but both very compelling and do a lot with their subtext. This makes me want to watch the series.

R34, a young Richard Burton reminds me a bit of Richard Madden

[quote] "Directed by the legendary Joseph L. Mankiewicz."

Eventually.

A young Richard Burton reminds me a bit of JordanxBrandt.

never liked taylor as a actress, her voice as well was grating....

off topic, but in relation to her "rival" monroe, people, even taylor herself said she was a far better actress than Marilyn was, to which i reply "NOT!"....

Can anyone picture taylor doing ANY of monroe's roles? the only role i think taylor could have pulled off was Roslyn in "the misfits"... NO WAY, no how, could taylor have done bus stop or the prince and the showgirl or some like it hot, etc... HOWEVER, I could totally see Marilyn doing any role that taylor did except perhaps for Cleopatra, because of the dark haired nature of Cleopatra.

It's a film to watch on a rainy afternoon. Sharaff's Academy Award-winning costumes & hair designs are all glorious.

And what about John De Cuir's sets? Babs entry into the Harmonia Gardens is as triumphant as Cleopatra's into Rome.

Too fucking long! The story and characters are dwarfed by the huge production. It was a BO success and eventually made back its cost with sales to CBS (?) for TV showings.

4 hours in the theater and it flew by. I wish I could see the original 6 hour cut. Fox felt people did not want to sit through a 3 hour film starring Rex Harrison. The following year Rex would win an Oscar because audiences did exactly that.

This film took 3 years to shoot. During that time La Liz got sick with pneumonia and fell in love with Burton, which led to overindulgent bingeing and boozing and partying. This is why the lady's weight fluctuates from scene to scene. One minute Cleopatra's svelte and soignée, the next minute she's plump and haggard.

I say bring back HER FIRST ROMAN!

The script is truly terrible, much of the acting is bad and aside from the big dazzling showpieces like the arrival in Rome many of the sets are actually quite pedestrian.

The thing is a boring fucking mess - very hard to sit through. And I have.

[quote] The story and characters are dwarfed by the huge production.

The main story was about two failures.

Antony (who had little moral value) was emasculated by the wily Egyptian minx (who had no moral value).

They had some battles but the story climaxed in failure.

Not even Shakespeare of Shaw could do much with these two charmless characters

R37, the first few seasons are streaming free on Tubi.

Thanks R50 . I will have to add that to my Tubi watch list.

Sir Michael Hordern was a good Cicero

^ Such a fine actor he was. He's great in everything I've seen him in.

For such a homely guy Michael Hordern was always good.

Michael Hordern was a ham. One of Burton's cronies who had him in about seven movies.

It was originally to star Elizabeth Taylor, Peter Finch, and Stephen Boyd.

[quote] Can anyone picture taylor doing ANY of monroe's roles?

Can anyone picture Monroe doing ANY of Taylor's roles? They were both considered prime Hollywood eye candy but they were both completely different types.

R36 I hate Rome’s depiction of Cleopatra too.

As a Cleopatra lover, it’s annoying there’s nothing close to her real story on screen.

People are bored of the idea of a new Cleopatra movie because the seductress romance story isn’t appealing anymore - but she wasn’t that at all.

I mean she most likely intentionally had Mark Antony commit suicide so she could make a deal with Octavian. She didn’t kill herself because of Anthony, she killed herself because she didn’t want to be a prisoner and she died with 2 of her closest female companions - her hair dresser and a council (who is called a servant but she ended up serving on Mark Anthony’s council).

Her relationship with Caesar is complex and is a box of puzzle pieces. We know that she initially sided with Pompey when he went to war with Caesar, it’s one of the reasons why she was exiled from Egypt as Queen originally. Then Pompey is beheaded by her brother and she comes back to Egypt to Caesar for help. And they start a war against her brother and she becomes pregnant. Her involvement in the Battle of Alexandria is missing but we know she was clearly in the palace with Caesar and must have been a contributed despite the lack of evidence. She gathered an army against her brother in Syria before Caesar landed in Egypt, she was not a woman who stayed on the sidelines.

Liz’s Cleo was just this arrogant demanding entitled woman who did nothing but rant about power.

Cleopatra was smart. She wasn’t a seductress, she was strategic. Mark Anthony was a dumb jock and was ultimately her downfall. It wasn’t her who made the bad decisions, it was Anthony.

R57 Butterfield 8.

Not as good as Carry On, Cleo.

R57, MM could've easily played Gloria Wandrous in "Butterfield 8."

"Nobody ever mentions my hidden acting prowess!"

—The Asp

Yeah, you killed it

I think the story needs the HBO/GoT treatment rather than cramming it all in movie

I agree that the 1963 is a bloated mess; I recently re-watched it & it's not a fun campy classic (like 10 Commandments) or something that inspires nostalgia about Old Hollywood. It just seems like a joyless slog & Burton looks embarrassed to be there through most of it.

I first saw Cleo on network TV in the 1970s, I thought it was overly long and a snooze, no real action, nothing but talking heads, OMG. Nothing like the Ten Commandments that I looked forward to seeing every year. Anyway, I'll try watching it again on platforms previously mentioned, and the behind the scenes doc film too. Elizabeth looked gorgeous!! Spectacular sets, costumes, endless eye candy for sure, but BORING! That was my 10 year old view. But I believe in second chances. :-)

^ Yeah, the 10 Commandments was fun with all the biblical characters looking like they stepped right out of the 1950s

Check out those bangs...

I watch The Ten Commandments every Easter. Thats what my aunties did when I was growing up. I find it very comforting and its a movie you don't have to watch closely at all, but you can. Just nice colors. Beautiful men.

I guess I'm in the minority because although I am a Taylor fan, I don't think she is good in Cleopatra but its probably due to the artistic conception and writing.

Cleopatra had such a big impact, especially in fashion, it started the fashion of the big cat eyes and pale lipstick

You can watch with fascination the shots in which Elizabeth's tracheotomy scar is visible.

In a restored sequence she's lying face down on a slab getting a massage in the nude, and she's shaped just like a seal. A very white seal.

Roddy was very camp in this epic.

The problem is not with the supporting cast. From this thread, we have agreed Roddy McDowall, Martin Landau, Hume Cronyn, George Cole, Robert Stephens, and Sir Michael Hordern did very well.

Rex Harrison deservedly won the damn Oscar.

Cleopatra became a Liz and Dick movie. Their histrionics ruined the film and they knew it. Even Dick was embarrassed by it.

The 10 Commandments & Cleopatra have art direction / hair / costumes that has more to do with the era they are made than the era they depict - that’s true of almost every Hollywood period piece to one degree or another.

The comparison is a good one because 10 Commandments is actually an entertaining, if silly, watchable film. Both have fairly ridiculous dialogue but De Mille knew how to tell a story cinematically and keep things moving. Cleo is mostly lots of expository dialogue in over-long, static scenes.

For the money spent every frame of Cleo should be as dazzling as the entry into Rome, not endless stage-bound dinner theater level histrionics.

This is a classic collage. Enjoy

Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatra nearly financially destroyed 20th Century Fox, but The Sound of Music saved the studio from bankruptcy soon after.

[quote] never liked taylor as a actress, her voice as well was grating....

[quote] off topic, but in relation to her "rival" monroe, people, even taylor herself said she was a far better actress than Marilyn was, to which i reply "NOT!"....

Oh, dear, dear, dear.

@r71, MOOOOO... sus

That bitch could really chew up some scenery

Elizabeth Taylor's personal life, bad project choices, and excessive....uh, general nature, has overshadowed her acting ability. She wasn't the best actress ever, but she could legitimately act quite well. Watch Giant, A Place in the Sun, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?.

At the same time, Marilyn Monroe's contingent of overweight frau fans has built her up to be some overlooked massive talent. She was a misunderstood acting genius who deserved ALL the Oscars! Marilyn NEVER played anything but Marilyn Monroe.

Most of her actually watchable films where she plays a lead are carried by other actors - Some Like It Hot (Jack Lemmon, Tony Curtis, and Joe E. Brown), Gentlemen Prefer Blondes (Marilyn gets all the immediate attention, but it's Jane Russell who does the heavy lifting upon rewatch). The Misfits (Montgomery Clift, Thelma Ritter, Eli Wallach, and Clark Gable). She is good in The Asphalt Jungle, All About Eve, and Niagara, but those were all supporting or bit roles and were also prior to her becoming Marilyn Monroe, the brand.

I AM Isis! I am worshipped by millions who believe it!

[quote] Not even Shakespeare of Shaw could do much with these two charmless characters

If you think ANTONY AND CLEOPATRA isn't "much," and that Shakespeare's two title characters in that drama are not complex and compelling, you have godawful taste.

Mankiewicz could not get a decent performance out of her, in either SUDDENLY, LAST SUMMER or CLEOPATRA. He got hammy braying instead.

R75... will have to agree to disagree.. once again, no matter what, for any reason, Taylor STILL could not have played any roles that Marilyn played (singing, dancing, comedy, etc) regardless if you think she was playing herself, except "the misfits"... Marilyn could have done suddenly last summer, butterfield 8, and so on..

Hasn't it always been said that comedy is harder to do than drama?

I think Liz is fantastic in this. Honestly, I don't get those who are aggravated by her voice. Her voice? She does a perfect Mid-Atlantic accent in this and she is commanding and sexy, even though the movie is a bore.

Fox mis-catergorizing Roddy McDowell in the Oscar campaign screwed him out of a nomination; on what planet is Octavian a "lead character"?

[quote] on what planet is Octavian a "lead character"?

In actual history, he was: he was Anthony and Cleopatra's opponent and triumphed over them both.

[quote] you have godawful taste.

R77 So you come to defend Shakespeare but make no defence of George Bernard Shaw?

My teachers taught me Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth and Lear are figures of genuine tragedy with some moral value but Antony a mere hedonist fool.

I agree that footage of Martin Landau (particularly his death) , and Hume Cronyn (did they ever show what he was doing in Rome before Roddy killed him?)

HC's character during the Egyptian part, as Cleopatra's tutor and advisor was very good and HC was memorable, so I'd love to see some of the other footage of his that was cut.

Not even SIR DONALD WOLFIT could save this film.

[quote] SIR DONALD WOLFIT

He was in the original cut but was completely edited out to make room for the two caterwauling stars.

R86 WOLFIT was a better actor than both Taylor and Burton.

HE is an acting GOD

[quote] [R77] So you come to defend Shakespeare but make no defence of George Bernard Shaw?

I don't think [italic]Caesar and Cleopatra[/italic] is one of Shaw's better plays, and though Shaw is an excellent playwright, I would certainly not put him in the same class as Shakespeare. I don't know very many people outside of the ancient Greek tragedians I would put at his level, though.

I think there's a lot that's messy with [italic]Antony and Cleopatra, [/italic] but it has absolutely gorgeous poetry and a few of the greatest characters in Shakespeare's oeuvre.

[quote] I don't think Caesar and Cleopatra is one of Shaw's better plays

I don't think anyone bothers to defend Shaw now. His stuff is 'Museum Theatre'.

Only a few of his plays are entertaining, all the rest are preaching and him pursuing a means to an end.

Antony and Cleopatra has one of my favorite lines from Shakespeare:

"Oh happy horse, to bear the weight of Antony!"

[quote] Oh happy horse

Mankiewicz didn't re-use that line.

R88 [quote] Antony and Cleopatra [has] a few of the greatest characters in Shakespeare's oeuvre.

Do you mean three?

[quote] Do you mean three?

I think he means Antony, Cleopatra, and the horse

Robert Stephens' role was also thrown on the cutting-room floor.

He had so much potential; he and Maggie were a golden couple for a short time.

I like to watch the film from every few years but don't think I've seen it in a decade now.

It's horrible and spectacular, often all at once. Rex Harris IS Rex Harrison, the role he was born to play and from which he never varied: perturbed, posturing, and that mincing voice.

Elizabeth Taylor is a beautiful college girl, emboldened by a few very string drinks delivering lines from Shaw or Shakespeare, or however she's misremembered them but she plugs on, confident of her beauty and her adoring audience.

Burton is Burton, again.

Roddy McDowell looks like something the cops dragged in from a gay bar bust on toga night, and sounds like a stepped upon cat.

Without the sets and wild changes of scene the film would be unwatchable, but what sets and what changes of scene. Forget accuracy of history or architecture and artifacts, it's all mood, kitschy but breathtaking in its boldness and scope.

It's a film you can't enjoy --or is it that you can't not enjoy-- taking apart every directorial decision, and saying "Now why did they do that? Why did she read the line that way? Would it not have bren much better if...?"

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Joanie is perturbed. She might have starred in Serpent of the Nile but not Cleopatra, and even that went to Rhonda Fleming.

For the Monroe troll: It cannot be overlooked that Liz effectively supplanted Monroe at Fox, where she had been Queen. Not only did Liz take Monroe's studio, but she also took a million bux for the role compared to Monroe's usual 125k. Plus another 6.5 mill when it was all over. Finally, Monroe wanted Cleo so Liz took her role at the start. She'd have probably taken her man if she'd wanted to. Just sayin...

This movie needs at least an hour of footage chopped on the editor's floor.

I blame Mankiewicz.

'I only came to see the asp' – Charles Addams

R98 I think it's an invention of MM stans how much she and Taylor "rivaled" each other. They had two completely different types of personas. And Taylor didn't exactly supplant Monroe at FOX, she was both six years younger AND had a persona that works better with age than "sexy blonde womanchild." You can't really do those kinds of roles past 30, and Monroe was closing in on 40. Even with that fact, prior to Monroe's death, she signed a very lucrative contract with the studio.

Joan was in 1955's "Land of the Pharaohs" with Jack Hawkins as Pharaohs and Dewey Martin as the guy who is helping to build the Pharaoh's tomb.

Treasure hungry Joan gets her comeuppance when she accompanies dead Hawkins body to the tomb.

I seem to remember reading that Joan had problems with the director Howard Hawks (how did he get this gig?) when her weight kept going up and down.

It's fun to watch.

You can find the trailer at this imdb page.

Sheesh.

That trailer at R103's link has the following flash on the screen...

[quote] From the pen of Nobel Prize Winner William Faulkner.

Yikes.

More than a few fools have got a Nobel Prize.

Liz nearly bankrupts Fox and in 1962, their only major star dies. How much insurance did Fox have on Monroe?

Fox was happy to get Julie Andrews.

Liz's entrance into Rome is beyond fabulous. I watch it just for that.

Burton looked 70 years old at times. Damm. He lived fast.

Cleopatra

....

I always said she probably looked like the Armenian bakery lady down the street.

MM coveted the role of Cleopatra and even sent Spyros Skouras an earlier set of pictures of herself as Theda Bara as Cleopatra to prove she had the right look for the role. But Skouras didn't think she could pull it off and told her the movie was going to be extremely low budget and that they were going to go with b-list Joan Collins. When La Liz landed the part for a cool $1 million, MM was livid.

When 20th Century Fox ran out of funds due to the skyrocketing cost of "Cleopatra," they shelved or canceled a number of films on their roster, released many of their contract players, and reduced the budget of Marilyn's latest project "Something's Got to Give." Feeling mistreated by her very own studio, she did what Joan Crawford had done earlier with "Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte" -- she begged off sick and stopped showing up on set. Undoubtedly, MM was unwell by this time, but some say it was a ploy to renegotiate her contract.

[quote]MM was unwell by this time, but some say it was a ploy to renegotiate her contract.

It worked. Dean Martin had co-star approval and wouldn't agree to work with anyone but Marilyn (he had been hired because she wanted him). Fox gave in and gave her a new contract for well over a million to finish Something's Got to Give with a new director and then star in What a Way to Go!

And then she died.

And then she 𝑑𝑖𝑒𝑑

This movie reminds me of what wasted potential Richard Burton was; if he could've stayed off the sauce & kept the drama to a minimum, he could've been something great. But instead, he just seems to sleepwalk through this big costume drama and it really highlights his wasted potential. I'm also struck when watching this movie how hefty Taylor is by today's standards. She's not "fat", but any movie studio today would send her off to lose at least 20 pounds before shooting.

R112 Liz wasn't the only star who was up for Cleopatra other than MM and Joan Collins. Joanne Woodward did a screen test, and Sophia Loren, Brigitte Bardot, Gina Lollobrigida, and Kim Novak were names being thrown around at point or another.

I don't think Dean Martin had some great loyalty to Marilyn either. He just didn't want to bother with the film anymore, and Marilyn being gone was his way out of it. He complained to George Cukor during production about how impossible she was to work with. They had filmed for 32 days, and only had SEVEN minutes of usable film (to compare, Shirley MacLaine and co. took 45 days to shoot What a Way to Go, a considerably more lavish film).

WAWTG is so funny. I can't understand why it flopped when released. Free on YouTube.

Then why did Martin refuse to have any other co-star? Several actresses were considered and Lee Remick was even announced.

R118 He signed a contract which was that he was only to do the project with Marilyn. Marilyn was gone so he split. And Lee Remick never actually accepted the role, those pictures she took with Cukor were to drum up production drama for good tabloid fodder, like Cleopatra did far more successfully with, well, everything that happened on that mess of a set.

[quote] everything that happened on that mess of a set.

Something's Got to Give ended up where it should have been all along, in Dodo's hands.

For the love of me, I can't imagine terminally dull Joanne Woodward as Cleopatra.

R117 It didn't flop. It was the 7th highest grossing film of 1964. Made $11.1 million on a $3.7 million budget.

And adjusted for 2022 inflation, that's over $100.6 million.

R122, thank you for that information. I know that I read somewhere several years ago that it flopped. Glad you were here to prove me wrong. Delightful news! I really like this movie.

- R117

R122 and with Marilyn in the role "what a way to go" would have been even a bigger hit than with Maclaine...

Marilyn was tied to that ridiculous low budget cost cutter bargain basement salary of 100 thousand since 1955 and contracted to make 4 films for 20th century fox, something's got to give and what a way to go would be the final 2 films of that contract. Marilyn could and should have asked for much much more, but she didn't really care about money and it would have been hard for 20th century fox to give marilyn a HUGE salary when she went from bit player to superstar in a short time.. .She was getting paid peanuts for starring in "gentlemen prefer blondes" in 1953, and even with the 1 2 3 punch of that movie, and "how to marry a millionaire" and "niagara" in 1953, there's no business like show business in 1954, and the seven year itch in 1955, it was still considered a HUGE contract for Marilyn to go from 1000 a week to 100 thousand per film... At the time it must have seen like a huge paycheck and fortune for Marilyn.... 7 years later in 1962 it was beyond a joke!...

didn't help that her own studio hated the fact that they needed her and never forgave her for turning down roles and leaving for new york for a time.. for whatever reason, OTHER huge stars turned down roles, got suspended and so on, and they were seemingly forgiven by the industry but NOT Marilyn?.....

interesting as well 36 year old marilyn was considered a risk for box office, but that when TAYLOR HIT 36 in 1968 her career was majorly faulting as well with a number of flops before and after "who's afraid of virgina woolf'... but yet once again, taylor was given more leeway in flops that Marilyn because for whatever reasons the industry put up with Taylor but Not Marilyn...

By 1952, at 20 years old, not only was Liz paid 5k per week at MGM, but she had the clout even at that time to demand a contract for her new husband, Michael Wilding, at 2.5k per week.

R125 Eh.......Marilyn, as soon as she became Marilyn Monroe (TM) was unprofessional and hard to work with, while Liz only became that way following Cleopatra and Richard Burton. Marilyn was too image conscious to ever do what Liz did in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf - she hated appearing "fat" in Some Like It Hot and Let's Make It Love due to her pregnancies.

And I don't think WAWTG would have done better with Monroe than Shirley MacLaine. MacLaine was in the prime of her career and nearly a decade younger than Monroe at the time. Monroe, had she lived to 1964, would have become another of the myriad faded 1950s icons. Her vehicles, by 1960, were flopping - Let's Make Love and The Misfits were savaged by critics and audiences alike (though I do really like The Misfits, it is a SLOG). The dumb blonde bombshell was DOA - the Doris Day type was the successful blonde of the 1960s. George Cukor was pretty on the money when he said that her career was going to be over following SGG for a slew of reasons.

I find What a Way to Go embarrassing. I couldn't believe Comden and Green wrote it.

I don't know if Fox was happy to get Andrews. She was a completely unknown cinema commodity. Mary Poppins hadn't even been completed yet when she was hired. It was also said she didn't photograph well. Maybe it was her lantern jaw which Mad Magazine spoofed wonderfully. Wise asked Disney to show him some clips from Poppins and he was wowed and said we've got to grab her before anyone else does. Poppins was released while SOM was filming and quickly became huge. It was probably at that point Fox became very happy.

I think in her autobio Andrews says she had a photo session with Beaton. Remember he designed her clothes in MFL. She said it went really well. He was encouraging and enthusiastic. She felt so good. Then after he finished and started putting his equipment away he said, "Of course you have the most unphotographable face imaginable."

At the Tonys she handed him his Tony for Coco. They both seem happy but I wonder what was actually going through their heads.

I didn't mean Fox was literally happy to get Andrews, but eventually they were.

On her face, Hitchcock once told her, "Don't ever let them use a wide angle lens on you, my dear" or something like that, because her nose would have looked like the Children's Catcher with a short lens.

R127... Maclaine was hardly box office power at the time, she had a hit with "the apartment" , 2 years prior, some bit roles in other movies from 1960 to 1962 and a co-starring role with hepburn in the children's hour in 1962 which I don't think did much box office, and her hit irma la duce was AFTER "what a way to go"....

And of course, Marilyn was supposed to do "what a way to go" after "something's got to give".. If anyone thought that maclaine would have been better box office than Marilyn in 1962, they would have offered and contracts ready for Shirley, not Marilyn to do this movie.....

the days of the blonde bombshell were reaching the end or at least faltering, but to bracket Monroe with mansfield, van doren and the other clones is ridiculous, they NEVER had a a-list career except for mansfield for all of 2 years... the clones were never going to last because they were never box office in the first place.... Marilyn was far above all of them, and was thee original and unique, it was her charm, charisma, magnetism, looks body and yes acting ability that made her so. Sure, she would have had to evolve her image as she got older, but to say she had nothing else to offer is wrong too. she would never have to have resorted to nor would she do b and c level movies...

I tend to think it wasn't that marilyn didn't want to appear unattractive in films, i wonder if it was more that the public didn't want to see her like that! it was more the public's fault, than marilyn's?... Marilyn was also pregnant during some like it hot so there was the weight gain and as well all know she lost alot of weight in 1962 and looked slimmer and more youthful than she had in years...

as far as the "flops" that were let's make love and the misfits.. was it marilyn's fault or the material's fault? both were actually not the HUGE flops that they have been described for years now... they did okay business, they just weren't huge hits...

you're right for a time in the early 60s doris day was top box office (always wondered why she didn't get the million dollar contract first over taylor?) but her time came as the 60's wore on and the public and society changed and her wholesome image became dated and old fashioned and taylor when she reached the age of 36 in 1968 like Marilyn did in 1962, found her career faltering as well because of bad projects and her age.. so it wasn't just a "marilyn" thing...

Monroe had a number of projects and talk of projects lined up after something's got to give...

Gowns by Edith Head...

Hollywood and the Stars: What a Way to Go!: An Extravaganza In The Making - 1964

R131 Irma La Douce (1963) which reunited her with the director and co-star of The Apartment was a huge BO hit.

R134... you're right it was a big box office hit but came AFTER the success of "what a way to go"...

Marilyn was planning to do "what a way to go" and it's been said that Billy Wilder would have agreed to direct Marilyn yet again in Irma la duce despite the massive headache from "some like it hot".....Although if the strasberg's were still in Marilyn's life and career they may have told her to turn down the role, because playing a "streetwalker" was beneath her....

The point is Marilyn was the first choice for both those roles, not Shirley.. She got both because of Marilyn's passing...

R135 Irma La Douce (1963) was released before What a Way to Go! (1964) Shirley was nominated for an Oscar for Irma before WAWTG was even released,

PS R135 Irma was 1963s 5th highest grossing film and WAWTG was 1964s 7th highest grossing film with $11, 921,000 and $6,100,000 in domestic BO respectively.

They are both shitty films. But Shirley M was hot in the 60s and movie theater owners wanted her in Funny Girl rather than Babs.

Many historians believe Cleopatra was actually black.

Elizabeth Taylor was already a bonafide, scandal-plagued, Oscar-winning movie star by the time she took on the Cleopatra role, but her pairing with Richard Burton sent her to the stratosphere of celebrity-hood, making her the biggest star on the planet. Le Scandale was a watershed event, and Liz and Dick's every move made front page headlines in movie magazines and newspapers all over the world. In the old days, the studios would've gone on overdrive doing damage control to protect their product and players, but 20th Century Fox realized that all this attention and free publicity would bring in movie audiences in droves, so they tolerated Liz and Dick's brazen demands, indulgences and long absences from the set.

The audiences did come, but it would take several years for "Cleopatra" to turn a profit. Overall, "Cleopatra" turned out to be a big letdown considering all the big hullabaloo surrounding its production. Miss Taylor was said to have vomited when she saw the finished product. Yet still, "Cleopatra" marked a turning point when the big studios no longer protected its stars from the prying press. Liz and Dick's antics came in tandem with Marlon Brando's antics on the set of "Mutiny on the Bounty," Marilyn's antics on "Something's Got to Give," and Monty Clift's troubles on the set of "Freud," all of which were openly reported in the press.

R138 That goes without saying. Virtually all of the films MacLaine made in the 60s were shitty, trite and best forgotten.

John Goldfarb, Please Come Home! The Bliss of Miss Blossom, Two Loves, Woman Times Seven, My Geisha, Two for the Seesaw, The Yellow Rolls Royce, All in a Night's Work

What about Sweet Charity?

R142 Sweet Charity was better than most of the dreck she appeared in.

I think Charity is pretty wonderful even that happy hippy Bud Cort ending which I find very moving because MacLaine with her expression and the music pull it off. But I know I'm in the minority.

Unfortunately Sweet Charity was a bomb at the box office and pretty much annihilated Shirl's career for awhile. For years it was Vegas and Atlantic City for her. It wasn't until Terms of Endearment that it found its footing again.

I did it better!

R146 I doubt it!

R146 Did you show your nipples, Claudette?

She's comes awfully close in The Sign of the Cross to entice her handmaiden.

Sign of the Cross was a huge DeMille spectacle and pre-code, set in Ancient Rome. If you look closely at an uncut print, Claudette definitely a couple of nip shots when her handmaidens give her a milk bath.

It failed because fat Liz and always drunk Dick could not act to save their fucking life.

[quote] "An odd thing to say considering North is not only considered one of the greatest composers for the cinema but also one of the most innovative."

It's just too bad North never won a competitive Oscar. He WAS the first composer to be given an Honorary Academy Award, however. My favorite of his scores is "Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf?". It isn't very long, and it isn't as grand as many of his other works, but I listen to it more than any of his others.

Interesting fact: North was contracted to score Kubrick's "2001". The director was a huge fan of temp tracks, which included Strauss' "Also Spoke Zarathustra". In composing the score, North worked hard to provide original music appropriate to the film, but in the spirit of the temp tracks (including the Strauss), Kubrick was so fond of.

It was only when North attended the premiere of the film, that he discovered his entire score had been jettisoned, in favor of the temp tracks he'd heard months before. North's full "2001" scote was recorded and released in the late 1990s or early 2000s (I have the album, but can't remember the year).

Stanley Kubrick did a good thing. His choice of music works much better for 2001 than North's 1960's-ish score which would have robbed the story of its feeling of timelessness.

[quote] North's 1960's-ish score

North —whose real name was Isadore Soifer— was very angry and 1960s.

His stuff may have been suitable for angry Socialist-inspired movies like Spartacus but Cleopatra was supposedly a timeless classic.

[quote] The director was a huge fan of temp tracks

R152 What is that?

The full Entrance Into Rome (pity that it's only available on Youtube in 360p):

Dick Burton was hot

For R155:

Dick Burton was as hot as Jordan.

The CGI used for Cleopatra's entry into Rome is pretty amazing. Nice continuity between the head on shots from the front then her point of view and then from behind her. Thank god for computer editing or that would have been a nightmare to put together.

Scared to watch this because both times I watched it as a kid someone who worked with my mom died. I'm not that superstitious but it freaks me out.

[quote] The CGI used for Cleopatra's entry into Rome is pretty amazing. Nice continuity between the head on shots from the front then her point of view and then from behind her. Thank god for computer editing or that would have been a nightmare to put together.

Also thank God for the seamless colorization.

I've always wanted to see this, but it's so long.

Is it worth the investment or is it a campy mess?

[quote]Is it worth the investment or is it a campy mess?

Watch it during a Saturday afternoon when you're doing laundry or cooking; when you step away for 5-10 minutes, you won't miss much. Maybe have a few drinks too to enhance the campy spectacle of it all

It's a bit boring and it's not camp but it should be seen on a huge screen. This movie was not conceived for television. When you see it in a theater as it should be seen you don't get bored because your eyes can travel through each scene and pick up details of the staggering production design and massive sequences. On TV all of that is lost.

Wait until TCM does one of its theatrical screenings in a local theater. It's the only way to appreciate this movie.

Mankiewicz was high on Dr. Feelgood's amphetamine cocktail of injections and pills for most of the writing and filming of the movie, which was one of many contributing factors to the epic delays. (Even his son Tom admits this; he was an intern on the film.)

Tom has also shared that Liz handed him a water glass and asked for a refill. He filled it with tap water and took it back to her. She said something like, "No dear, I meant a refill of vodka."

[Quote]I don't get those who are aggravated by her voice. Her voice? She does a perfect Mid-Atlantic accent.

LMAO

I don't think anyone has explained in detail that Mank wrote and shot this as two four hour films, Caesar and Cleopatra and Anthony and Cleopatra, to be released separately months apart. By the time filming was over, Fox told him to edit it into two three hour films to speed things up. The first cut ran approximately six hours.

But then Fox found itself constantly just a few days away from bankruptcy and told him to cut everything into one film. Because of their affair, Liz and Dick had become the most famous, most photographed and most talked about couple in the world. Fox (Zanuck and his suits) didn't think the studio would survive if they waited months for the Liz and Dick parts to be released. That's what everyone wanted to see and they needed to get it released immediately.

That's why so much of the film seems so disjointed and badly paced. Half of it is missing and what remains was rushed into release. People who saw the two film, six hour cut thought it was far superior to the single film f,our hour cut.

And yes, people have been searching for the cut footage for decades but it appears to be permanently gone. Fox was notorious for not preserving things. In the 70s, Fox dumped all their Technicolor negatives to save the storage costs and many of their color films survive in only dismal to fair condition.

[quote] Fox dumped all their Technicolor negatives

That is a scandal!

[quote]Do you mean three?

Antony and Cleopatra are two of Shakespeare's finest creations.

Octavian, Domitius Enobarbus, Lepidus, and Octavia are great smaller roles.

[quote] Domitius Enobarbus, Lepidus, and Octavia are great smaller roles

Do they appear in the Mankiewicz version?

[quote]She'd have probably taken her man if she'd wanted to. Just sayin...

Yeah, she was a huge slut.

No. Sluts are used and abused. Women with any sort of power meet and expect to be met by a lover on equal terms, lest they meet at all.

Bump because it's next up on TCM right now.

Joseph L. Mankiewicz.

He started off well and reached a peak in 'All About Eve'. He then did some interesting and bizarre films ('Guys and Dolls' and 'Julius Caesar') and he then fouled up with that monstrous, incomprehensible, stupid mess of two 'Cleopatra' movies cut down into one.

Well, I thank him for giving good roles to James Mason, Rex Harrison and John Gielgud and offering a star part to Paul Scofield. And I also thank him for giving a last starring role to Michael Redgrave in 1958— whose career was also heading down into the abyss.

Mankiewicz was good at writing talking-heads dialogue which was not well suited to what should have been a De Mille-style epic.

But the stars of this show are the kitschy sets and costumes, and the thousands and thousands of extras.

[quote] While filming Cleopatra's entry into Rome, a scene requiring thousands of extras and the pulling of a huge sphinx carrying the Queen of Egypt and her son between its paws, Joseph L. Mankiewicz said a master shot was spoiled because the camera caught an enterprising extra hawking gelato to his fellow extras.

Imagine the producers already behind schedule and overbudget having successfully done the scene; and then having to trash the reels and reshoot it

meanwhile, 20th century fox kissed taylor's ass and treated their cash cow, Monroe, like shit during "something's got to give"... giving taylor a lavish birthday celebration, whereas Fox "gave" monroe a "sheet cake" and brewed coffee and billed it to monroe!...

shameful treatment of monroe, no matter the headaches she gave them, not to mention the shit they gave her in regards to scripts/movies....

and of course sticking to the ridiculous bargain basement contract of 7 years ago at 100 thousand, when she could and should have ask and got at least 500 thousand to 1 million per picture...

[quote] While filming Cleopatra's entry into Rome, a scene requiring thousands of extras and the pulling of a huge sphinx carrying the Queen of Egypt and her son between its paws, Joseph L. Mankiewicz said a master shot was spoiled because the camera caught an enterprising extra hawking gelato to his fellow extras.

There have been numerous stories about the "master shot" being ruined, the most famous one of a jet crossing the sky in the middle of the take and another one of Mankiewicz wanting to reshoot the whole thing because there were empty spaces in the crowd in the middle of "the master shot." If you think about it, there are no master shots in this sequence. Cleo's entrance is made up of many different shots taken from several angles probably filmed at the same time with a number of cameras to save time and money. They most likely shot so much footage of this scene that they had plenty to throw away, as we know they did.

The most pathetic thing about this Cleopatra is that it's a poor reaction to William Wyler's Ben-Hur.

William Wyler's Ben-Hur is a perfectly-crafted story which appeals to Christians, Normal adults and to children. It's an adventure-story, a religious story and a story of Jewish strength. It featured a fantastic score, astute ethnic casting and it made a lot of money.

William Wyler's Ben-Hur inspired the angry 'Spartacus' which was an angry jewish movie starring an angry Issy Demsky (K.Douglas) who was furious that William Wyler rejected his application to star in Ben-Hur.

William Wyler's Ben-Hur inspired this messy Cleopatra with an egomaniacal Mankiewicz who was sufficiently vain to think he could simultaneously write a direct a mammoth movie. It also has elements of jewish anger and confused ethnic casting.

[R56]: I wonder if any vestige remained of Lawrence Durrell’s screenplay.

One of Mankiewicz’s dreams was to film Durrell’s “Alexandria Quartet.”

People went to see it because the Taylor/Burton affair was always in the news.

R34 thanks, loved that. I was so engrossed i forgot i was only watching a clip lol.

Brenton Thwaites should be in the remake as an Egyptian slave boy.

I had a friend who made a novena praying to stay alive long enough to see the movie. We were 16.

Cleopatra‘s entry into Rome is every young gayling‘s dream of making an appearance.

R186, did he make it?

R186 Yes he did