Eldergay actor Carleton Carpenter is dead to me!

Awww. He was smelling snickerdoodles in OP’s pic.

He was in Summer Stock, too! He was one of those character actors made for movie musicals, but he didn't have much of a career for some reason.

Around 15 years ago or so, someone posted that Carpenter was going to "die soon," and every time he was mentioned here on DL I would chuckle about how wrong that prediction was.

Very much like a young Kirk Cameron. Wide smile and bright eyes.

So was he gay, or what?

R4, yes

Wikipedia says he was bisexual

So, he was taking the pole. Sweet.

Oh please! A bisexual?? The man wrote a mystery novel titled “Only Her Hairdresser Knew.”

I’ve never ever heard of his name in my whole life!

Here's his one big hit, with Debbie.

He was beautiful 😍. But I suspect the bisexual label was because he was from an age where even that was better than homosexual. I'm usually not drawn to effeminancy but I am to him. However he looks like he lived in a world of snickernoodles.

I liked him in The Whistle at Eaton Falls

Cutie

Cary Grant turned up at his dressing room door and Carleton turned him down.

Oh, no.

He has a cornball, aw-shucks, dumb-cluck look which may be acceptable for comedic supporting roles but never a star part.

with Debbie...

He should've changed his name to Chuck Carpenter.

WIth Gene Kelly & Phill Silvers / Summer Stock (1950)

RIP

He looks sort of like Roddy McDowall in Planet of the Apes when he's singing that Yabba Dabba Dabba song.

R10 - I FUCKING HATE that song!!! Plucked my nerves since 1982.

I remember reading an interview in which he said that Gene Kelly took a dislike to him on the set of SUMMER STOCK, perhaps because he was so tall.....or so gay...that Carleton saw his role diminished.

In the 70s he wrote several mysteries.

I saw him as the lead in BYE BYE BIRDIE at the Northland Playhouse in the 60s. I was just a tot.

As Cornelius in Mary Martin's "Hello Dolly" tour (1965).

He was by all accounts a lovely guy.

That clip of him and Debbie is adorable, Debbie looks sweet as a brunette and Carrie's resemblance to her mother stands out I think. Debbie had such appeal as a young actress. She herself wanted to be a gym teacher. Sigh.

He was indeed a great guy. Lived a long and happy life -- no bitterness or regrets.

He's interviewed here from 1993 by Super-Flamer Skip E. Lowe (the guy Martin Short patterned his Jiminy Glick character after)...

I don't think I've ever actually heard Debbie Reynolds sing until now. Was she really known as a singer? She's not good.

This Bitch was queer as a $3 Bill!

Sounds like Debbie Reynolds spent a lot of time being everybody's fag hag back in the day. No wonder Eddie Fisher went for Liz.

He has a bit part in "Father of the Bride" in which he shows a bumbling Spencer Tracy how to open a Coke bottle. It then sprays all over Tracy. He later said that Spence was very kind to him.

Spence was known to be generous to handsome young actors.

He shows Spence how to open a coke bottle effortlessly. The Spence tries it and sprays it all over himself.

He was tall and lanky. I bet he could not have been able to hide his attraction to men if he tried.

He played a character called "Miss Untouchable" in the gay-themed 1971 film Some of My Best Friends Are...

So....if he was so talented, attractive and beloved.....and I'm a fan......why didn't he have a bigger career in Hollywood or on Broadway? I get that musicals were winding down just as he started out at MGM, but he seems like he would have been perfect in a 1950s/60s sitcom as the goofy neighbor/sidekick, at the very least.

I wonder if he was too outspoken about his gayness? But nothing in interviews seems to have indicated that was an issue. Seems like he was a bit of a loner all his life. Perhaps he simply wasn't very ambitious.

R33 From that clip at R16 he clearly had talent, but as we have heard from nearly everyone who was around in that era, being openly gay was a career killer. But for those people to KNOW this to be true, there had to be some sacrificial lambs. Carelton was sacrificed. It seems like in that era you had to either be a comedian or uber masculine to be a star. Clearly Carleton did not fall into either of those categories. I don't think he was not ambitious. I think some people are so flamboyant that they just can't hide it. At the end of the day he probably just said "fuck it this is who I am."

I saw him in Crazy for You and I didn't know he was even in it. He just showed up on stage.

[quote]I don't think I've ever actually heard Debbie Reynolds sing until now. Was she really known as a singer? She's not good.

Debbie herself put it best: "I don't have a sound." Even so, she had a big hit single with the theme from "Tammy." In "Singin' in the Rain," in the scenes in which she's supposedly dubbing Lina Lamont's singing, someone else is dubbing Debbie.

R36 I noticed that too. I am surprised she had her own show! She must have been a good cocksucker in addition to being a good hag for all the gays. I bet she took a lot of Hollywood insider secrets to her grave.

R10 He comes off very nicely in that number.

But I think he was just an odd type. Hard to cast.

R37, more like a clitsucker

I remember him in Father Of The Bride...in a small part as the kid who wanted a coke, in the kitchen where Spencer Tracy was serving drinks at the bridal shower. Tracy had coke spritzed all over him, when opening a bottle...then the kid helped himself, opening the bottle with no problem.

R10 He does the googly eyes like Eddie Cantor.

Odd type??

MGM was the studio that cast Oscar Levant and Jules Munshin in some of their biggest musicals of the 1950s.

Oscar, Jules and Cuddles Zakall never danced with the ingenue.

Marsha survives!

He kept at it for 60 plus years and stayed out of the tabloids. God Bless him.

r37 And she was the biggest dyke in Las Vegas.

R21, the differences between Kelly and Carpenter wouldn’t have been about the latter being gay. Kelly and his wife Betsy Blair had opened their home to writers and performers who were gay. They were both Broadway performers and they would have worked with the gays.

I'm enjoying the interview at R26. It's more interesting than his actual movie appearances.

I have never heard of him but he's cute as a button in OP's photo.

He's survived by his beloved granddaughter Charisma.

MGM signed him up, so they were interested in giving him a career. Not in killing his career because he was gay. I mean, Fox made a star of middle aged, gay Clifton Webb. They didn't care as long as you made them money and were discrete.

The studio got a lot of positive feedback and fan response when he did Aba Daba Honeymoon with Debbie, so they starred him in some things - Fearless Fagan, and Sky Full Of Moon. He was supposed to star with Debbie in The Affairs Of Dobie Gillis (a musical), but he was pulled out of it and replaced by Bobby Van - probably because Van got a big fan response for Small Town Girl (with Jane Powell). This was apparently upsetting to Carpenter as it would have been a big break.

Has anyone mentioned his bit part in Father of the Bride?

If they were making superhero movies back then he would have fit nicely into a superhero or supervillain role.

Gene Kelly didn't seem all that self conscious about being short, he cast men taller than himself in some of his films where he was director or choreographer (Dan Dailey, Van Johnson) - but Carlton Carpenter claimed GK didn't want him standing near him in Summer Stock because of the marked height difference.

Kelly was 5' 7", Carpenter 6' 3".

He didn't want to look like a munchkin.

R47, I can't remember how the story went but a gay friend beat Kelly at a game of tennis which prompted Kelly to start throwing around gay slurs. Seems like Kelly liked gays who knew their place, but were never to be above him.

R34, he wasn't sacrificed. R51 makes some good points, but I think he just didn't have that NEED like most actors. And kind of like Tab Hunter. Hunter didn't have the desperation that his backstabbing boyfriend Tony Perkins did.

Also being so tall didn't work so well, especially if he was to be paired with Debbie Reynolds, who was 13 inches shorter.

I wonder if Angela Lansbury asked him to do a Murder She Wrote.

[quote] Fox made a star of middle aged, gay Clifton Webb

I can't think why. He had the sex-appeal and the gravitas of a newt.

R59 Why? Because he was talented and had a unique screen personality. From the time I was a kid I always liked Clifton Webb, he was very funny in my opinion, and could be a good dramatic actor on occasion (The Man Who Never Was, Titanic). But everyone has different tastes.

Gay City News interview - contains some interesting things - he (C. C.) would have been in Seven Brides For Seven Brothers, but got out of his contract after losing the Dobie Gillis film.

Like every other Hollywood gay, he appeared several times on Perry Mason with Raymond Burr.

[quote]I can't think why. He had the sex-appeal and the gravitas of a newt.

He was nominated 3 times for the Academy Award.

R61, did Ray Burr pull strings to get all his gay pals on the show?

Though they weren't gay, Webb's appeal was not dissimilar to George Sanders and Peter Ustinov. A certain sort of effete intellectual snob thing that Americans just loved in the occasional supporting character actor, if not leading man. Yet it's true - late in life Webb became a true leading man.

R63, don’t know, but it would be easy for him to do.

R62, R64 I suggest someone start a separate thread on middle aged, gay Clifton Webb.

For some reason Fox made him a star.

R61, I also remember an episode he did of "The Rifleman" called "The Coward."

He was sexy. I'm sure he got his lips on some prime meat in his heyday.

A studio can try to make you a star but it's the public who makes the final decision and it voted yes for Webb. First a musical comedy star on Broadway then in middle age a movie star which is late to become one especially someone so plain and effete but talent will out.

But he refused to do any newt scenes, R62.

In this or the other thread people were mentioning seeing him in basically walk-on parts. I wonder if he was personally very well liked by those in the business but for whatever reason (prejudice?) had periods when he could not find works. So friends got in these jobs as a way of allowing him to keep his union membership, make a few bucks, and keep his face before not the public but rather others who do hiring.

Is it true that Rifleman Chuck Connors was once a gay porn actor? His endowment earned him the nickname "The Bat"? Or was that just a fantasy served to gaylings back in the day?

I've seen shots of him naked from his pre-fame days

[quote}First a musical comedy star on Broadway then in middle age a movie star which is late to become one especially someone so plain and effete but talent will out.

He was better looking than Monty Woolley, who was also sarcastic/effete, and starred in several movies and was popular (though not as popular as Webb, ultimately). Back then they would take chances on building up character actors if the public liked them. Edmund Gwenn and Thelma Ritter, for ex. Sometimes they were cast in leads. But Webb became a big box office star.

Carlton Carpenter was hella cute, when I saw him in the full Aba Daba Honeymoon number I just thought, wow, he's so cute.

the 1974 compilation pic That's Entertainment propbably did more for him than anybody else showcased... he was in two clips? I wonder if we'd even be talking about him if not for the success of that picture....

[Quote]he wasn't sacrificed.

R57 It is slightly annoying when people try to gaslight and ignore history. Carleton Carpenter was an humble man and was always just grateful to be "working." He was a tall good looking, extremely talented, broadway-trained triple threat, seemingly good natured actor with over 70 years in the business and he never got any leads in Hollywood? He was a gay and it is well documented that gays have a long history of discrimination in Hollywood, so much that many gays went to great lengths to hide their homosexuality. He did not hide what he called his "bisexuality."

And don't talk about him being too tall at 6'3." Gregory Peck and Jimmy Stewart were both 6' 3." Rock Hudson and Johne Wayne were 6' 4." None of these men had anywhere near the talent range of Carleton Carpenter. Hollywood was willing to move Heaven and Earth to cast good looking "straight" men regardless of talent. A lot of actors (like "straight presenting" Rock Hudson) had NO EXPERIENCE. Rock's acting debut was in a film. He had one line and it took him 38 takes to get it right.

But you keep telling yourself Carleton Carpenter wasn't discriminated against.

R76, I’m not R57 but your wrong about him never getting a chance to be a leading actor. He was the headlining star in two films, it says as much in his obituary, so he did get a chance to carry a film and grow his career. A lot of fame is luck, after all, it just didn’t work out in films for him.

[quote] It is slightly annoying when people try to gaslight and ignore history.

How, exactly, does one gaslight history? I've never known a word to be so overused by people who don't know what it means.

I wonder also if Carleton's playing on 1954's terrific tv version of "Lady in the Dark" the musical's first openly gay character might have caused him problems in later casting? He is excellent in it, as is Ann Sothern.

Found this on Tumblr--Carleton is in the middle. Would love to know the back story.

R76 Your gay loyalty is showing.

Carpenter was a novelty singer useful for supporting roles or for live shows. He could never be compared as a box-office attraction or sex-symbol alongside Gregory Peck or Rock Hudson.

Carleton could have been a cuter Danny Kaye and done similar kinds of comedic leading musical roles. He was just as good as Kaye was at patter songs if you see him do "Lady in the Dark" doing Kaye's original role.

Actors (are in large part) as only good as the studios who back them. What studios do for them has a lot to do with how they land. There wasn't a lot of interest in investing in the gay guy. Sure he is talented so we will cast him, but we aren't gonna make him the lead. You will see that here is still a lot of that today if you look at Hollywood.

R81 I encourage you to read up on Rock Hudson. He was a 100% Hollywood creation as were many others in his time period.

R78, don't willfully misconstruct that syntax. You know perfectly well that "history" is only the object of "ignore" and there's an ellipsis of the object of "gaslight" (which is being used correctly, but I'll leave it to R76 to elaborate if he thinks it's worth his time).

Hollywood can only go so far in constructing a leading man. It turned out that Hudson was also a very good actor. He was a terrific light comedian and hit lightning with a gorgeous leading lady. And he's not bad in soaps either. Compare him to John Gavin who was even more handsome but did not have that light comedic touch or even the gravitas for a big epic like Giant.

Gavin was also a pretty stiff leading man. Hudson was quite natural once he got used to acting, and as you say, turned out to be very good at light comedy.

At first I thought you were talking about this guy:

As I said way upthread I'm not surprised Carleton didn't become a leading man in films, he really was more a sidekick type, but it's too bad he never reached TV sitcom stardom in the 50s or 60s, like Art Carney, Wally Cox, Don Knotts, Buddy Ebsen, Jim Nabors and Bob Denver, to name a few.

He did get a "Ropers" episode. So there's that.

Carleton was cuter than all those guys, but he could have also led a variety show when they were popular. He had done more movies than Andy Williams and Perry Como, and what' s more, he could dance and act, which was more than those guys for the most part could do.

R76 Did you read the interview I posted? (R60). I think you should read what he himself said about it. He also says he slept with a lot of women, just for the record.

R90 I suppose this is a parody, but if you're serious, those guys were top recording artists and big names.

R76, "Gregory Peck and Jimmy Stewart were both 6' 3." Rock Hudson and Johne Wayne were 6' 4." None of these men had anywhere near the talent range of Carleton Carpenter."

Thanks, that was funny.

R91 I have read extensively about Carpenter. I know who he is and well aware of his talent. I am also aware that he slept with women. But just as today bisexual men are considered gay by most people, I'm sure the same was true then. Sleeping with women wouldn't negate the fact that he was discriminated against.

R93 What's funny is that your sarcasm falls flat because apparently you are too stupid to know what a triple threat is and how rare that is! 😂

[quote] a triple threat

Oh! Eddie was a bigger triple threat.

R96 Eddie Cantor was clearly a force to be reckoned with. He was so butch and alpha. I bet men shook in their boots and women swooned when he walked into a room. What a Hunk! What a MAN!!!

Going to see Whoopie in a crowded Film Forum is quite the experience. Cantor is hilarious and it has a wonderful score. I saw the 1980 production with Repole and it was great. I forget though how they solved the problem of what happens after the stove explodes which even back then couldn't be done.

Cantor had 5 daughters. And god knows how many women he slept with his popularity was through the roof. He was extremely well endowed which can be clearly seen in one of his precode I believe Sam Goldwyn musicals when he comes out of the water. Maybe its Roman Scandals.

I did a Google image search on "Eddie Cantor young" to see if there was any point in his life when Eddie Cantor was even remotely attractive.

The answer was: No.

I was totally kidding. His prancing around and bugging his eyes is annoying... Eddie Cantor was also a racist piece of shit!

Cantor when young was a very cute Jewish nerdy type. He is adorable in the 20s when he made silents.

But back to Carleton Carpenter... Re fame and future opportunities, he probably made a bad move leaving MGM. As he says in the print interview, he was informed he was out of Dobie Gillis by Louella Parsons (not even the studio); he had a meeting and questioned this, since he felt he was perfect for it. At this time, he was already cast in the upcoming Seven Brides For Seven Brothers. But he decided to leave the studio and was given a release from his contract.

So - had he stayed with Metro, he would have continued to benefit from their publicity, and being cast in big pictures (Seven Brides was nominated for Best Picture). Maybe for his personal happiness, it was the right decision, to leave (he preferred the stage), though it seemed to have been made in a moment of pique.

Debbie Reynolds (for ex) was all but promised the lead in The Actress, by George Cukor, after extensive testing - then she lost it at the last minute to Jean Simmons. But she stayed on. If she had left MGM, at that time, maybe we would be wondering why she never hit it big, either.

I'm not saying Carleton made the wrong move, for himself, but if people are questioning why his fame diminished at that point, that's probably the reason.

* both incidents - with Carleton and Debbie - happened around the same time, btw - in 1953.

Carleton Carpenter was a "juvenile" as far as his type. It is very difficult to be an "aging juvenile", regardless of one's talent. It takes them years longer to reliably age into the roles they can conceivably play because they look like elderly boys rather than middle-aged men.

A lot of actors suffer from this.

It's hard to really say what Carpenter should have done re MGM as musical films were rapidly losing popularity by 1953 when he left the studio. Even those who remained at MGM, including Jane Powell and Howard Keel, who starred in 7 Brides, as well as the rest of the cast of fine dancers, and Bobby Van who got the dubious plum role of Dobie Gillis, all saw their film careers careers totally fall apart. And those actors' appearances in those final gasp of film musicals didn't transition into stardom on TV, except for maybe the occasional guest appearance on a variety hour.

Debbie Reynolds was really the exception and some think it was the Eddie Fisher/Elizabeth Taylor scandal in 1958 that really gave her career a shot in the arm and kept her in the public eye.

Also, was Carpenter a superb dancer and a triple threat? Where is that evidenced?

R106 I know it is the DL trend to diss anyone who is gay (or bisexual in his case) but you might want to do a little research first. Carleton Carpenter was pretty fucking amazing! I have never seen Gregory Peck or Rock Hudson do anything remotely as awesome as the clip below.

Here is more of Carleton doing his thing. He moved very well and was very aware of his body to be such a tall man. You all may not like that he was a triple threat but his talent was undeniable. He should have been a bigger star.

r76, I wasn't dissing anyone. As a matter of fact I was really defending Carpenter's choice of leaving MGM.

And I'm sorry if it bothered you that I asked about his dancing proficiency. I've never see 2 Weeks with Love, only the Abba Dabba clip which has no dancing. We're not all experts here, like you. Thanks for providing the clip at r107.

R106 Thanks, that's a good post, answering mine about his career at MGM. I wonder which part he was supposed to play, in Seven Brides? Possibly Gideon (Russ Tamblyn's role)?

Jane Powell did do the lead in the big all-star live TV version of Meet Me In St Louis (1959), so it wasn't all just guest star roles, but her career didn't remain big after MGM, it's true. The one whose movie career did okay after that film was Russ Tamblyn.

I know song-and-dance musicals were dying and I'm not saying Carpenter would have gone on to greatness if he had remained at MGM, but maybe if he had remained under contract and stayed on in the film industry, he may have gotten a TV show or something else that could have kept his face before the public. I was just speaking to the fame aspect. Because I think once he went back to the stage (and the occasional TV role) he didn't achieve much further fame. Of course if he had stayed he may have done worse, there's no way to know.

But Tamblyn didn't have much of a career after The Haunting.

R107 Your use of the word 'awesome' is as inappropriate as R96 using the word 'threat' to describe this novelty singer. .

Tamblyn had never danced before 7 Brides. He'd been a gymnast and acrobat.

R76, Yeah I agree. Jimmy Stewart's career would've been SO much stronger if only he'd been a "triple threat".

You're taking everything too personally, and your comparisons were...rather odd. I'm a fan of Carpenter. Yes, he was multitalented, but so were MANY, MANY people who never even got as far as Carleton did.

Many years later, Gene Kelly kissed and made up.

"Kelly gave Carp a big hug, talked about old times and old friends and the two entertained the cast with show biz stories."

Kelly was highly, highly closeted. But he was allegedly caught with Vincent Minnelli during the filming of The Pirate, some accounts say by Judy.

Debbie Reynolds actually tapped pretty well in that clip with Carleton back in 1950, about 2 years before all those stories of sturm und drung she had by being a total non-dancer opposite Gene Kelly in "Singin' in the Rain". She already had been trained by MGM to some extent. Maybe not up to his standards by the point, and he also gave her a hard time since he wanted someone else for the role. I forget who he had in mind though.

[quote] sturm und drung

Oh, dear!

That's a tired DL myth, R117.

The only actress who I can imagine would have been considered besides Debbie for Singin' in the Rain would be Jane Powell. who had already proved her dancing proficiency in Royal Wedding with Astaire the year before.

And while I have no problem believing that perhaps Gene Kelly was "highly closeted," it's utterly beyond comprehension that if he wanted sex with a guy, he'd choose Vincente Minnelli with all the hot gays (and closet cases) in Hollywood, even if Minnelli was his director.

Totally agree R120.

excellent account of what it took to break into the NYC stage circa 1944. Carleton's sharp as a tack in this clip.

Skip needs a slap!

Two slaps for Skip!

Those close-ups are unflattering.

Arthur Laurents in his autobio said there were rumors about Kelly being bi. But if anybody knew it was Laurents. I think it was his way of outing Kelly without being threatened by the widow Kelly.

I have a male friend in his early 60s who, in his teens, had sex with Kelly.

I have no problem believing that Kelly would close his eyes and think of MGM if Minnelli wanted to pork him. Minnelli was a hugely influential director.

[quote]But Tamblyn didn't have much of a career after The Haunting.

10 years after the year Carpenter left MGM. Anyhow, the public is was/is more familiar with Russ Tamblyn. Only film or theater buffs know who Carleton Carperter was.

That's because of one movie. And even that's sinking into oblivion except for movie and film buffs.

Edmond O'Brien STOLE Carleton Carpenter's Oscar!

is there a full version of this out there? MAX LIEBMAN PRESENTS: "Lady in the Dark" - 9/25/1954, NBC

^ Danny Kaye originated that role on Broadway in the 40s, when he was living openly as gay.

R129 That's one movie more than Carleton Carpenter is famous for (if you mean West Side Story?). Russ Tamblyn starred in Tom Thumb, he was in movies like Follow The Boys and How The West Was Won, he had some visibility from these MGM movies and others.

Did Carleton make a fortune from his recording of Aba Daba Honeymoon or did it all go to MGM?

He said he made a small bundle, split with Debbie.

Daddy!

R129 Russ Tamblyn was nominated for an Academy Award, for Peyton Place (1957) and won a Golden Globe for Most Promising Newcomer, for Hit The Deck (1955).

Lots of folks didn't have musical movie careers as musicals weren't churned out after about 1955 or so. Tommy Rall was really excellent; he's another who should have merited a bigger career.

R138 Tommy Rall was especially good in Kiss Me Kate, andMy Sister Eileen. He was somewhat buried in Seven Brides.

Well, he was dancing superbly along with other great dancers of the time. But yes, in fact, I think he even wins the dance-off with Bob Fosse in "My Sister Eileen" by doing even harder dance moves, though they are both great.

R140 Yes he wins that, even though (or maybe because) Fosse choreographed the film.

If Tamblyn is known by a wider public than just movie and theater buffs it is only for WSS. And as I said that film which was once known by everyone is sinking into obscurity except for the lovers of the genre.

R142 I was not talking about what Tamblyn is known for now. I was talking about back in the day. He was more famous than Carp back then, and his professional career was in higher gear. He was nominated for an Oscar. The original point was that Carp may have sabotaged his career by walking out of his MGM contract. Tamblyn got parts in Hit The Deck and other movies that Carp may have gotten. Not rocket science.

'Anyhow, the public is was/is more familiar with Russ Tamblyn. Only film or theater buffs know who Carleton Carperter was.'

You're talking about the present. I agree Tamblyn in the past was a bigger better known performer.

Fosse is wiped away by Rall in both Kiss Me Kate and My Sister Eileen. He never seems to have been interviewed about his days in movie musicals but he was one of the very best. I was watching the video of KMK with my mother and father. My father for whom Fosse didn't register at all was like who is that guy referring to Rall.

R145 Well they both wiped the stage with Bobby Van in the From This Moment On number.

[quote]I have no problem believing that Kelly would close his eyes and think of MGM if Minnelli wanted to pork him. Minnelli was a hugely influential director.

As a big star, Kelly made more money and had arguably more power or equal power to Minnelli - and he became a director, himself, and somehow beat out Minnelli with the "greatest musical" - Singin' In The Rain.

And they made AAIP pretty much together the year before which not only won the Oscar for best picture when Rain wasn't even nominated but it was also a bigger popular success.

Probably Minnelli was the more powerful one when The Pirate was filmed. Minnelli was still riding on the box office of Meet Me in St. Louis and Ziegfeld Follies, even though his next two (Yolanda and the Thief, Undercurrent) were flops. Kelly hadn't carried any films on his own and his last one before The Pirate, Living in a Big Way, didn't. The hits Kelly had been in were more attributable to other stars (Sinatra, Hayworth, Durbin, Garland).

I'm reading Carpenter's autobiography, The Absolute Joy of Work. He meanders a lot but does a great job of taking us back to Broadway and Hollywood of the 40s and 50s and spills a lot of tea.

[quote]Kelly hadn't carried any films on his own and his last one before The Pirate, Living in a Big Way, didn't. The hits Kelly had been in were more attributable to other stars (Sinatra, Hayworth, Durbin, Garland).

Maybe Sinatra had to do with the box office power of Anchors Aweigh (1945) - Kelly was still fairly new to fame - but Kelly's character, Joe Brady, carries the plot, and has the main love story - he has several big numbers - and he got his only Best Actor nomination for it.

R132, when was Danny Kaye ever openly gay?

[quote]Is it true that Rifleman Chuck Connors was once a gay porn actor? His endowment earned him the nickname "The Bat"? Or was that just a fantasy served to gaylings back in the day?

Are bats known to be hung?

Is that a joke? Hope so.

r152 He was hiding in plain sight during his 1941 run on Broadway playing a queer man in the musical Lady in the Dark.

[quote]"a leading man who had no chemistry with his leading ladies"

Kaye had a lot of chemistry with his leading ladies. This author is just seeing what he wants to see. For a comic, he had more chemistry with his leading ladies than many others. Not saying that he wasn't gay, but he had affairs with actresses like Eve Arden (who also may have been bi) and Shirley MacLaine.

Kaye was not unlike Bert Lahr in his screen persona, in fact Lahr was upset because he thought Kaye was copying him. But Lahr wasn't gay.

When would Kaye have hooked up with MacLaine??

Danny Kaye was bi apparently. He had an affair with Gwen Verdon (I guess pre-Fosse, maybe around the time of "On the Riveria" which she danced or later on his tv show) and also a more substantial long-lasting one with Laurence Olivier.

I was working at the Dalton book store when the Olivier auto bio came out. The buyer went to a new release party where Michael Korda spoke. The buyer came back and said Korda said there is nothing about Danny Kaye in the book. Well until this time there had not been the slightest whisper in the general public about Olivier being gay but what Korda said was pretty much understood by the buyer and myself. What made my draw drop however was not that Olivier was bi but that Kaye was somebody he had an affair with. I enjoy Kaye in movies and he was even fun in his travesty of a performance in Two by Two(who cared if he turned it into the Danny Kaye show?) but as Olivier's lover? I guess Kaye would not have been my type in a million years.

[quote] and also a more substantial long-lasting one with Laurence Olivier.

No, he did not.

R158, you make yourself foolish and gullible when you repeat garbage from the sick mind of that fool Donald Spoto.

Here come the fraus who think it's "sick" to say someone might be bi or gay

[quote] I guess Kaye would not have been my type in a million years.

So you admit to that, R159.

While you admit to being a gullible sop sucking up second-hand gossip from muck-rakers.

OP, you forgot to mention Carleton Carpenter being intimate with—

[quote] What made my draw drop

Right there in the middle of Dalton's?

I would challenge those proclaiming Danny Kaye had affairs with Olivier, MacLaine and Verdon to post photos of a desirable Danny Kaye to convince us.

[quote] When would Kaye have hooked up with MacLaine??

Thanks for the link, r166, and I do see that Danny Kaye is mentioned a s a former lover but I still wonder what the circumstances were that brought them together. Besides the fact that they didn't ever seem to travel in the same circles, there was quite an age difference. And, frankly just such different sensibilities, if you know what I mean.

Who is the sick fuck who hyperventilates if you say Sir Larry was bi or gay when everyone knows he fucked every thespian from the ancient theater at Epidaurus to the National on the Thames and back again.

Calm down, r168. I think 99% of us here believe Larry was bi but just wish he had more taste than to waste it on Danny Kaye.

MacLaine said she met Danny Kaye on the Paramount lot when they both worked there in the 50s, but they didn't become friends, then lovers, until the late 60s when she was shooting "Woman Times Seven" in Paris" and Kaye visited the set. They connected immediately, flew back to New York together when the shoot ended, and continued the affair openly with the tacit knowledge of Kaye's wife Sylvia. MacLaine wrote that Kaye was dazzling, but a master manipulator, and when they decided to split they both wept. It's all in her memoir, "My Lucky Stars".

[quote] …lovers…the affair…

Cocktails and laughter but no penis-in-vagina.

I'm watching Carpenter's film debut in Lost Boundaries. He stands out among the cast and really should have hit it bigger in Hollywood but passed up contract offers from big studios in the mid-40s because he preferred Broadway (but not so much vice versa).

Another standout debut in the film is from Richard Hylton, who didn't get his contract renewed by 20th Century-Fox after rumors surfaced about his sexuality. He eventually moved to San Francisco and at age 41 took an overdose of barbiturates.

There's a reference on Wikipedia that is dismissive of anything between Danny Kaye and Olivier, besides that there's no mention of him being gay or having relationships with other men. Which is odd I thought there would be.

Same with Tyrone Powers, makes no mention of his relationships with men.

[quote] There's a reference on Wikipedia that is dismissive of anything between Danny Kaye and Olivier, besides that there's no mention of him being gay or having relationships with other men.

They were rehearsing a burlesque song and dance number for a upcoming fund-raising charity concert. That is all.

[quote] Which is odd I thought there would be.

You thought incorrectly.

[quote] Same with Tyrone Powers, makes no mention of his relationships with men.

Wikipedia doesn't retail gossip unless there's documentary evidence.

Wikipedia has higher standards than Datalounge.

Olivier's son, who confirmed Cary Grant's bisexuality in Scott Eyeman's detailed biography, denies his father had any affair w/Kaye, or that he was gay:

"He does, however, appear to mind considerably about Spoto’s allegations that his father had a homosexual liaison with the American comedian, Danny Kaye, insisting: “That is absolute rubbish. If it had been true, Vivien would have been the first to spread it around after Larry left her. Larry wasn’t shy or inhibited with his close friends. Derek Grainger, his official biographer, told me he had asked Larry if he had ever had a homosexual experience. He said he hadn’t, and then asked, ‘What have I missed?’ Derek replied, ‘Frankly, darling, not much.’ I think if he’d had homosexual experiences, he would have told me quite openly. He confided in me and he trusted me.” Tarquin is equally adamant in denying recent claims (made by an American author) that his father has a homosexual affair with Richard Burton."

R176: "Wikipedia has higher standards than Datalounge."

Except when it comes to grammar and the pesky requirement known as 'chronological order'.

[quote]Wikipedia doesn't retail gossip unless there's documentary evidence.

[quote]Wikipedia has higher standards than Datalounge.

Datalouge is a GOSSIP message board.

Datalounge*

[quote] ... Olivier's son, who confirmed Cary Grant's bisexuality in Scott Eyeman's detailed biography ...

R177, how was Olivier's son in a position to know about Grant's sexuality?

So where did the Danny Kaye-Laurence Olivier rumors come from in the first place? Who would think to put those two together in the same scenario, let alone the passenger-screening role-play at the airport?

[quote] how was Olivier's son in a position to know about Grant's sexuality?

How are anonymous Dataloungers to be in any position to know about unknown person's sexuality?

I assume that the book R177 referred to must have explained the context of Olivier's son's remarks, but I haven't read the book.

Can't almost anyone edit a Wiki page?

R181, my bad. Tarquin was one of a dozen or so who DIDN'T have a direct comment on Grant's sexuality. But he and his mother, Jill Esmond -- Olivier's first wife -- became friends w/Grant when he was married to Barbara Hutton.

[quote]Tarquin was one of a dozen or so who DIDN'T have a direct comment on Grant's sexuality.

Wasn't Tarquin the roommate of Sheridan Bucket?

They liked to sew quite a bit.

When asked about his sexuality on Desert Island Discs Dame Joan had this to say about Sir Larry:

'"If a man is touched by genius he is not an ordinary person. He does not lead an ordinary life. He has extremes of behaviour which you understand and you just find a way not to be swept overboard by his demons.

"Such men are also normally attended by demons. And he would fight to overcome those demons. Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't."

So now you know you are all attended by demons! Drive them out by the healthy love of a good woman!

I had no idea people were asked such questions on Desert Island Discs!

So I guess yes, he dabbled

R176, It was close friend Cesar Romero who said Tyrone Powers had relationships with men also, Wikipedia should have at least noted that information.

[quote] Cesar Romero who said

Undocumented gossip is gossip.

What do you want a video tape?

Please, everyone has always known Tyrone Power was bi. I read it in Walter Scott's Personality Parade when I was a kid, for Pete's sake.

Photographs and a number of contemporary accounts in print from a variety of persons.

[quote] Walter Scott's Personality Parade

"Walter Scott" = Ed Klein = mercenary hack