Liza Minnelli and Lorna Luft Share Memories From Their Home Life With Mom Judy Garland (Exclusive)

"accidental"

It was accidental.

Acshidental.

I love seeing these cis sisters so full of joie de vivre!

Geez, Liza is only 6 years older.

If I didn't know who they were, I'd believe you if you told me it was some woman and her mother.

Honest question - why isn't Joey Luft ever interviewed or seen? Did I dream this or did he have a stroke or something? Is he on speaking terms with Liza and Lorna?

They invited him, but told him there was only a "green room" at the studio, at which he pitched a fit.

I wrote this on the other thread but "It schmellsh like Mama" is going to become part of everyone's Liza imitation along with "I just started working with clay" from HSN

Does Liza support Joey?

I doubt if Sid Luft left much of an estate behind.

R6 I like blue!

Lorna had some serious health issue some years ago so it's good to see her looking well.

These two love each other and they love their mothrr. Judy may have been a wreck, but she taught these kids about love.

Whenever I hear or read a story from these women talking about their mother, I remember one tale I read.

Liza was working with another woman who was about to call her Mom for some reason.

Liza asked if she could listen in. Because she wanted to hear what a "normal" mother-daughter conversation was like.

Apparently, Liza never had one.

[quote]Honest question - why isn't Joey Luft ever interviewed or seen?

He's busy in Lorna's breakfast nook bedazzling Liza's costumes for her comeback tour.

Lorna doesn't look anything like Judy, you'd never guess she was Judy's biological daughter. She looks exactly like her father.

Liza was shaking. Were they not letting her have a drink until the interview was over?

I love Liza's Golden Globes casually sitting on the piano.

[quote]Judy may have been a wreck, but she taught these kids about love.

And booze and abandonment.

[quote]It smells like Mama.

Gin and cigarettes.

And they'll all lie next to each other in death at the Hollywood Forever Cemetary. Nobody will care about r16's rotting corpse.

[quote]And they'll all lie next to each other in death

Just like they lied next to each other in life: "Wasn't mother wonderful to us? She really was!"

ARE YOU CALLING LIZA MINELLI A LIAR?!

DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE!

I was

M

O

L

E

S

T

E

D

I thought Liza cut off Lorna after the sort-of "tell all" book that became a sort "tell all" mini series?

r22 they reconciled a little while after that.

I know Liza had her substance addictions in the past, but I get a feeling she now is suffering from Parkinson's. A relative displayed the same physical actions (shaking, difficulty sitting up) and halting, hoarse speech. I'm glad to see that they're together and happy at this stage in their lives.

Joey Luft is mentally slow. All you have to do is look at him to see that he was born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. His face has every physical indication of it. Poor guy.

Not really.

JO_EY---JOEY, JOEY....

If mamma were married...

Nice to not see Michael Feinstein at Liza's elbow for a change...

It is healthy to concentrate on the great aspects of a parent instead of wallowing in their faults

[quote]And they'll all lie next to each other in death at the Hollywood Forever Cemetary. Nobody will care about [R16]'s rotting corpse.

And for $50,000 you can too.

[quote]Cemetary

Oh, dear.

I wish the "Oh, dear" cunts were all at Hollywood Forever right now.

Tasteful Friends: The girls and their gay pals did a great job creating a lovely and secure resting place for Judy and themselves.

Did you gals hear the rumor? I was molested.

The molested shit isn't funny, just stop with your inanity.

R11 through R19 Damn, you reply to yourself a lot. You've got some issues.

[quote]She looks exactly like her father.

And Liza looks exactly like hers.

When Liza performed I saw Judy.

Liza really is a mashup of her parents. When young, from certain angles she looked just like Judy. She also has her speaking voice and mannerisms.

R19 is clever. Come sit by me.

I eat old molested peoples excrement.

Liza is not in good shape.

Joey Luft was never a performer. Maybe that's why he's never included in these types of interviews, which are intended to draw in viewers.

There is something wrong with him. He's always seemed like he was unwell. Judy took drugs and probably drank while she was pregnant with him. He almost died at birth; one of his lungs failed to open.

I wonder if anyone will write an accurate biography of Liza after she dies? It will probably make a great book.

In 2014, Joey joined Lorna in creating his own "That's my Mama" show.

r6, Liza seems to be the one who had a stroke.

The OP's photo of Lorna and Liza is disturbing. Liza looks like a corpse.

Liza should be left alone to have her remaining days in peace, quiet and some sense of joy. She's really been through it. Let's give her some joy.

R49 Yes, that's one approach.

R40 I saw Liza in person at Book of Mormon. I was struck by how much her eyes were like Judy's eyes. Almost uncanny. It felt like looking at Judy Garland. And I'd never noticed it to that extent in pictures or movies.

Joey is very busy.

Joey's in better shape than expected.

[quote] I saw Liza in person at Book of Mormon. I was struck by how much her eyes were like Judy's eyes.

Wildly dilated?

Slumped into a bowl of soup?

Joey looks like he was taxidermied.

Joey was also at that Oscars telecast with Lorna and Liza 10 or15 years ago. They don't keep him hidden but they do keep him protected.

The author of this book says Judy's favorite insults were "cunt" and "cooze".

I just want to direct everyone's attention to the clip at r53. I have no idea what health or mental issues Joey may have but from reading these threads, you'd think he had a retarded person's IQ

The clip shows an adult man with the faculties to tell a clear story, he lands a joke, and all in front of an audience where there is naturally some additional pressure. for a non performer, he's just fine.

This sentence from the article needs to be rewritten: "Garland had 75-year-old Minnelli with her second husband, Vincente Minnelli".

Why isn't the knowledge of my favorite color enough for you people?

Joey will probably outlive Liza and Lorna.

[quote] The author of this book says Judy's favorite insults were "cunt" and "cooze".

I've suspected for years that zombie Judy was highly active on DL.

Feast on this...There was a time.

[quote]Joey was also at that Oscars telecast with Lorna and Liza 10 or15 years ago

It was 2014, not even 8 years ago. Sheesh.

R65, When host Ellen referred to Liza as a man in her monologue.

[quote]I saw Liza in person at Book of Mormon. I was struck by how much her eyes were like Judy's eyes.

I stood less than two feet away face-to-face with Liza at a 1995 press event, and would have to concur.

R67 so glad someone can back me up. You can sort of see it on tape or film, but in person, it's like looking at Judy's eyes. As a gay guy who loves Judy Garland, it gave me an oddly comforted feeling.

Liza's eyes were like the eyes of both of their parents. They both had large brown eyes. In fact, people said that Judy and Vincente Minnelli were so physically similar that they looked like "matching bookends."

Oh, I don't care. I've seen her in concert many times and she was always fucking fantastic. She had surgeries, addictions, weird marriages but at one time she was brilliant. She's elderly and for someone of my generation it's a bit startling to see her even more frail than she's been in the past. But I love her.

Lorna, get the smelling salts- we can clean-up the vomit later. Joey stop screaming!

. . . they looked like "matching bookends."

Like Patty and Cathy Lane.

R58. Thanks for the book ref. I've purchased it and I'm reading it now on Kindle. Great book!

R58. Holy shit, this book! .

It's too bad Liza won't write her book.

R75 It would be full of shit. Gushing about Mama and Daddy and all the famous people who were "simply TERRIFIC!"

R40, R79, I agree with both of you. Liza's had a good life, great successes, some failures, and problems that could happen and Have happened to many of us. Let her finish her retirement with peace and comfort. She's entertained us for years. I wish her well and Still love her. Those who mock her are just assholes.

I took my mum to see Liza in London, at The Coliseum, in 2008 and we both witnessed her morph into Judy during the encore. It was extraordinary to witness, almost shapeshifting.

To be fair, we'd had a few wines ; .

How did they get Liza and Lorna to talk about Judy? I mean, this is a SCOOP!

Smells Like Teen Addiction.

Liza never talks about it, but she got her drive from her mother, but her DREAMS from her father.

Or maybe she learned to drive from her mother. In which case, stay off the roads, people.

If you read the book mentioned above by Liza's agent you learn everything there is to know about Liza. It's the best I've read and it's not trashy.

Her ex agent still loves her, but Liza betrayed her after many years together The agent even paid for L's wedding to Peter Allen because Vincent and Judy didn't offer.

What a read.

The book also has a lot of Broadway tea.

Liza got her pills from her mother and her eye shadow and mascara from her father.

[quote]I took my mum to see Liza in London, at The Coliseum, in 2008 and we both witnessed her morph into Judy during the encore. It was extraordinary to witness

I bet. Crapping barbituates into a toilet is quite the encore.

Nobody craps out Reds, amateur. They're absorbed in the stomach. And not fast enough.

Liza said she got her DREAMSH from her father.

Liza had an affair with Aznavour. during this period. Eww

Liza is a nice woman and a huge talent in her own right who will forever be remembered for starring in Cabaret which may be the best movie musical ever. It remains a timeless film- not dated. I gave enormous sympathy for her family. Judy was a genius and I believe she loved her children, and they her. But she was a self destructive addict of the first order and as brilliant as she was, she was tragic and essentially abandoned by her family in the last few years of her life because she was so impossible- literally unsafe as a mother to her children. Her daughters never talk about this. They okay this down because they don’t want addiction to be Garjands legacy. I think they know otherwise because as much as they each have had show business success, Garlands legacy played out in their own addictions. It’s harrowing to read about Garlands life- she could be a maniac both professionally and in private.. It’s painful at times to watch her perform as great as she was- she is high and drunk much of the time, even when she’s in relatively good voice. She literally had not slept for 2 days before the famous Carnegie Hall concert. You know how she got through it. What would she have been if not an addict?

[quote] I agree with both of you. Liza's had a good life, great successes, some failures, and problems that could happen and Have happened to many of us.

I seriously doubt that she had "problems that could and have happened to many of us." She's had one of the craziest lives in show business. You've obviously a nutty fan.

Liza's agent was Judy's agent as well. Dear lord the incredible stories. Judy really was a black belt addict. The insanity all bloody day and night. She said Liza was unkempt as a child It saddened the agent who tried to help the kids.

Minnelli wasn't a good father either. When the agent and Liza visited him his wife made it clear they were not welcome. Not even an offer of something to drink or eat. Liza was a bit of a lost soul.

I get my drive from my mother and my dreamsh from my father!

Random fact: Lorna does backing vocals on Blondie songs Slow Motion and Accidents Never Happen on their Eat to the Beat album.

Lorna is not very bright. In her memoir she puts up a defense for Dodi Fayed, the deadbeat playboy who was Princess Diana's last lover. She goes on about how wonderful he was. Yeah, right.!

R90, which of Vincent’s wives were rude to Liza? Why are women such cunts to their stepchildren?

It's like this, r94...

Vincent's last wife was a horror to Liza for years. Vincent made Liza promise to take care of her and she did. But the old woman insisted on living alone in their huge old house. Liza begged her to consider moving to a luxury condo or coop, at Liza's own expense, so Liza could sell the property, but The Widow Minnelli refused and Liza had to fund the upkeep of the property for years until the widow died.

R96, thank you. I remember, years ago, that Vincent’s last wife, went on TV, and played the poor little widow. She claimed that Liza was throwing her out of her home and she had nowhere else to live. I thought the story was false, because Liza is a good person.

The house was abandoned for years which is odd. Liza didn't sell it for some time. Here this guy walks right through it.

[quote]Liza begged her to consider moving to a luxury condo or coop, at Liza's own expense, so Liza could sell the property, but The Widow Minnelli refused and Liza had to fund the upkeep of the property for years until the widow died.

The old bitch lived to be 100 years old! Liza supported her and that money pit of a house for more than 20 years. And the old bitch never liked Liza! That's a real testament to Liza's character, a lot of other people would've walked away from that mess.

Lorna at r64 looks like the Baton’s Chili Pepper.

[quote]Random fact: Lorna does backing vocals on Blondie songs Slow Motion and Accidents Never Happen on their Eat to the Beat album.

And she did kilos of coke with Debbie in the studio bathroom between takes.

Lorna was a huge cokehead back then, she wrote about it in her book.

Who did the molesting? I'd like to speak to the manager about it.

What is Liza's actual financial situation? On the one hand she's been getting rid of stuff, with $40M of Warhols to sell.

On the other, she's had expensive habits and always toured and toured, playing places a person wouldn't play for any other reason than money. She's had relatives to keep up, and who knows who else she pays for. She did the HSN and now we're at "it schmellsh like Mama!"

Does she live near, or even with, Michael Feinstein and does she have a caregiver (beyond a housekeeper, assistant, and staff most well-off people might have)?

The 2018 auction raised more than 1.2 million, r104. This brought $81,250.

That's not much money at all, R105. It's odd that those Warhol sales haven't been more documented in the press. There's just one (for $7M) that I could find.

She resides here...

Liza's building, Sierra Towers, is one of the best apartment buildings in LA. It's very posh.

Has Michael Feinstein replaced Billy Stritch in Liza's life?

^^ and always full of noise with construction.

Is Sierra Towers different from Sunset Towers? Are they both full of celebrities?

WE saw more of Judy than all three of those kids ever did.

Liza has another half-sister from father Vincent's second marriage. I don't think the were close growing up because Liza is 9 or 10 older than her but they are friendly and on very good terms.

That means half of Minnelli's estate went to the widow (Calif law) and the other half to Liza and the half sister. That's not much.

Vincente's surviving widow was his fourth wife. She was the Evil Stepmother.

BTW, Vincente's birth name was Lester Minnelli. No wonder he changed it.

[quote]BTW, Vincente's birth name was Lester Minnelli.

Actually, it was Vicki Lester Minnelli.

BTW Sid Luft was "an ape" writes Judy's/Liza's agent. He beat Judy, he attacked the agent, he was dumb and EVERYBODY in the Biz loathed him. Oh yes, and he stole from Judy.

Still Lorna and Joey speak well of him. Ah well, it's Hollywood.

[quote]Actually, it was Vicki Lester Minnelli.

Only when Judy was out and he could try on the negligees.

But, we probably would not have Judy's performance in "A Star is Born" today without Sid.

^^ that's in the book, too.

It's amazing that a man as gay as Vincente Minnelli had four wives.

Vincente Minnelli lived as an openly gay man when he was a set designer and stage director in Chicago and New York in the 20s and 30s. When he went to Hollywood the closet door slammed shut.

Vincente had lived as an openly gay man in NY in the early 30s, designing and staging the Rockettes' shows at Radio City Music Hall. When he moved to LA, Mayer hired him but immediately slammed him into the closet. Vincente was compliant.

R122, I guess we read the same article.

R88, apparently you didn't listen to Minelli and Luft, as they, perhaps defensively, completely disagree with you regarding their 'tragic' mother.

R122-R123-R124, as compliant as a lisping, flaming queen could be.

[quote]Still Lorna and Joey speak well of him. Ah well, it's Hollywood.

He's their father.

I don't think Sid Lift was as bad as he's been made out to be. The Atlantic did a piece about him called "The Least Worst Man" which depicted him as the husband who stuck by Judy the longest and who truly cared about her:

"Sid Luft was the nearest Judy Garland came to the man that didn't get away. By the end the nights were bitter, the star had lost her glitter, but he was hanging in there. The longest-lasting of her five husbands, he played Mister Judy Garland from 1952 to 1965—or half her adult life, if one can call it that. Unlike his predecessor, he was not "musical," in either the artistic or the euphemistic sense; unlike his successor, he was not voraciously gay. A scrappy, gravelly little guy known as One-Punch Luft, he was an all but unique figure: a rare friend of Judy who wasn't a friend of Dorothy. And as a result, folks can't figure out what he saw in her. For a long time the received wisdom was that he was a sleazy opportunist who'd hitched himself to her coattails and then milked her as long as he could. Yet insofar as there was a second act to Garland's career, he was its impresario: A Star Is Born, the great Capitol albums, Carnegie Hall and the London Palladium, the TV specials and weekly variety show that got closer than anything to the real Judy—all these are from the Luft years."

After their divorce Judy raked him over the coals, depicting him as terrible and blaming him for her money problems. But Judy was largely full of shit. From the time she became an adult Judy Garland was to blame for ALL of her problems. But she always blamed somebody else for her miseries, as addicts and alcoholics tend to do.

No Judy was not full of shit about Sid. Read the book above by Judy's agent. Sid used Judy. He was a hanger-on like everybody else plus he was a gambler. He stole Judy's money and lost it at the track.

[quote] Read the book above by Judy's agent.

I don't consider Judy Garland's agent the most credible source of information. He probably wanted to use Sid Luft as a scapegoat, too. And maybe he bought into the idea that poor, dear Judy was the eternal blameless victim. That's pretty stupid, but some people actually believe that.

The agent is female. You can engage in your fantasies and projections about an agent you don't know and a book you haven't read, if it pleases you, but you're incorrect. In other words don't trust your thoughts.

Judy gets a good take-down in this book.

Liza looks a lot like Momma here.

R125, yes they take that pose and I’m sure they loved their Mom and she them. I can understand why they want their mother to be remembered for her body of work. And yes it’s extraordinary from film, to record to stage. I’mn the other hand Facts are Sid had to take Lorna and Joey away from Judy in about 1966 or 7 because she was unfit. Liza stopped taking her calls as did just about every one. She sang for $100 a night at a small gay bar on the Upper East Side on Manhattan. Read some of the serious biographies of her life- heck, read Lorna’s book! It’s harrowing. Peter (what becomes a legend most) Rogers told me about her shoot in NYC- she never slept, trashed her hotel room etc. I also found it strange that as she grew older in the 1969s Judy acquired this sort of society women ascent and affect. One of the reasons I couldn’t watch the Rene Z film of her last London gig was because it was about as close to the truth as Trump is. Her teeth and gums needed big time work- she could barely stand much less finish a sentence. She was dying. Liza and Lorna know all of this.

It's too bad Judy didn't live to see Studio 54, she would have loved it, and would've loved partying there with Liza and Lorna.

[quote] The agent is female. You can engage in your fantasies and projections about an agent you don't know and a book you haven't read, if it pleases you, but you're incorrect. In other words don't trust your thoughts.

So fucking what if she's female? I'm pretty sure you don't "know" the agent either. I happen to know quite a bit about Judy Garland, though. The agent's book sounds like trash. I won't waste my time reading it.

By any objective, factual measure, there is no doubt that Sid Luft ruined her financially. He was her husband during her peak earning years, and nothing was managed well. And he gambled constantly.

Is this new footage? Lorna looks great in the still. I think she had large parts of her upper body removed - including some ribs, I think - to combat cancer.

[Quote]So fucking what if she's female?

Try to keep up. You referred to the agent as "he". I corrected you.

My suggestion to you is switch to gin.

[quote] Try to keep up. You referred to the agent as "he". I corrected you.

You sound like the most insufferable of cunts.

When Judy Garland became an adult her finances were HER responsibility. If she allowed her husbands and business managers to make decisions for her, it was her fault if they wrecked her monetarily. It was all HER fault. But that's the way she was. She always was an asswipe for men.

r140 there were tons of female celebrities back then who entrusted their husbands to handle the finances because that's just what women did in those days. Many of those husbands ended up pissing all the money away.

R133, you're talking about the last 2 years of her life. Her daughters are talking about the mother they knew for the entirety of their lives.

R141, well said. Doris Day and Debbie Reynolds were two other very famous examples.

David Begelman did a job on Judy financially, as well as Sid Luft.

Don't talk to ME about husbands pissing my money away....

[quote]One of the reasons I couldn’t watch the Rene Z film of her last London gig was because it was about as close to the truth as Trump is. Her teeth and gums needed big time work- she could barely stand much less finish a sentence. She was dying. Liza and Lorna know all of this.

As do Judyphiles, Charlie. Personally I liked that the movie was as respectful of her as it was.

[quote] there were tons of female celebrities back then who entrusted their husbands to handle the finances because that's just what women did in those days.

There's nothing particularly wrong with letting a husband handle the finances. It's just that some (some, not all) female celebrities married awful men. It was their choice of a husband that led to their financial downfall. So they of course share the responsibility if they go broke.

A STAR spends nearly all her time pulling it together for the next gig. He/she has to have a trusted someone to handle the business side of a performers life Judy didn't screw up here Sid did.

After "A Star is Born" wrapped, Sid stole all the furniture that was used in the beach house and had it taken to Chez Luft.

r146 it was a totally different time.

R89, drug addiction, liquor abuse, dysfunctional family upbringing, etc. are things that happen to regular normal people as well. You obviously don't get out enough....or don't have many friends who could tell you stories. Yep, a big Liza fan here and Very Realistic on what some people go through, famous or not.

R133, how could Sid have taken Liza from Judy’s custody in 1966? Liza was twenty.

R151 read again. Lorna, not Liza.

Chita, not Rita.

[quote]We probably would not have Judy's performance in "A Star is Born" today without Sid.

Another reason to hate him.

^^ Turn in your gay card NOW.

The kindest thing to be said for most of Judy's husband's is that they were cisgender.

When New York, New York came out in the 70s. Martin Scorsese was heavily criticized for making Liza up to look like Judy in a lot of scenes. Asked about it in an interview, he replied "What can I tell you? Put a wig on her and she looks like her mother."

Whose gonna run out and buy a bottle of "Judy"? It's unisex and Liza says, "It smells like mama".

It has it's own website.

No match for "Helenesque."

Relationships are complicated. Sid Luft was a grifter who lived off women--he did the same thing to his first wife, B-movie star Lynn Bari--but he also could have sincerely loved Judy and wanted her to be happy and successful. She had her most stable adult years when she was with Sid, after suffering a serious nervous breakdown while married to Minnelli (which was partly post-partum depression and partly the result of years of overwork and pill abuse). Once she and Sid broke up, Judy never really had a stable life again.

I read Stevie Phillips' book, and while it was a juicy read, I wonder if some things were exaggerated. She was not a totally stable personality herself by her own admission--she went through three disastrous marriages of her own as well as problems with alcohol. It was also clear she still bore a grudge against Liza for firing her as a manager, and that could have colored some of her recollections.

I'd never drink Judy but Helenesque has a great kick.

I give David Rose (Judy' first husband) a lot of credit. Unlike all her other husbands he never cashed in on her life or wrote a sleazy book or article about her.

Didn't she marry Rose at least partly to get out of the control of Mayer and that domineering stage mother?

[quote] So fucking what if she's female? I'm pretty sure you don't "know" the agent either. I happen to know quite a bit about Judy Garland, though.

Translated: "HISSSSSSSS!!!"

Judy's husbands:

David Rose. Her starter marriage. She married him when she was a teenager, probably in large part just to be independent of her mother. But she was not ready to be married and be in charge of a household. He was a nice, if boring, guy. She had an abortion while married to him. He was a very talented musician who made a good living on his own, so he was not after her money. Their parting was amicable.

Vincente Minnelli. Gay. It was obvious that he was, but she considered his penchant for doing things like wearing makeup just his "artistic flair." He was the first director to make her look beautiful on film, which made her attracted to him. He didn't need her money either; he was a top Hollywood director. They had Liza, and for a while they were quite a Hollywood couple. But very few marriages where the husband likes cock is going to last. They divorced and later Judy said nasty, untrue things like saying she'd raised Liza all on her own. Of course she didn't.

Sid Luft. He seemed to have no real profession, although he was called "a show business figure." He stayed with Judy the longest; 13 years. He helped rejuvenate her career with his efforts. They had one of those violent, up and down, Hollywood relationships. They had two children and she had at least one abortion during their relationship. He had his faults but he stuck by her the longest. Later she'd rake him over the coals saying he abused her and squandered her money. I suppose there was truth to that but Judy was not the most credible person in the world.

Mark Herron. Gay. A younger man, an actor. Judy needed a man and he was willing to be her husband. They separated after five months of marriage. She claimed he beat but he said he only struck in in "self defense." I believe that. Herron supposedly had sex with Peter Allen while Allen was married to LIza Minnelli. How gross.

Mickey Deans. Gay. He's been described as a disco owner, jazz pianist, and drug dealer." He was quite dreadful, a sleazy nobody. Judy gushed that she'd never known true love "until I met Mickey." By the time they married she was half dead. Photos of her at that time show her looking like a rotting corpse. They'd barely been married before he found her seated on the toilet, dead.

Judy sure could pick 'em.

[quote]Her starter marriage. She married him when she was a teenager, probably in large part just to be independent of her mother. But she was not ready to be married and be in charge of a household.

There were so many awful marriages back then because living together as an unmarried couple was such a huge taboo so people got married way too young and ended up miserable. In fact, many DLers have recounted how miserable their own parents were because a couple just had to get married in that era, there was no other option if they didn't want to be ostracized.

Lorna admitted in her book that she started using coke before Liza did, and she was the one who got Liza started. I was in the early 70s and she said that back in those days they didn't know how dangerous coke was.

At least they haven't made a commercial with Judy hawking vacuum cleaners or chocolate bars.

The cgi is so good, you almost think it's Audrey eating a Dove bar.

Everyone had known about how addictive and dangerous cocaine was since the 1800s.

I get no kick from cocaine

I'm sure that if I took even one sniff it would bore me terrifically too.

But I get a kick out of you.

r170 Lorna wrote that they thought coke was just a fun party drug, they didn't know how dangerous it was. It wasn't until later that they found out.

R151, He took Joey and Lorna. Liza was on her own and as I said, pretty much keeping her Nom at arms length at that point. As for Sid stealing her money- yes he managed it poorly but it was Judy turning her management over to Begleman that really did her in for good. Judy was always broke- always. She couldn’t write a check. Judy was a mess most of he life- including her peak years at MGM.

None of this is new- all pretty much documented in a number of bios. Even her TV show was a touch and go high wire act from day to day.

Child stars frequently marry too young so as to be able to get away from awful parents, and/or establish in the minds of their fans (and themselves) that they are now adults. Macaulay Culkin married at 18, and then divorced his wife at 22. Drew Barrymore married at 19, then broke up with the husband only 19 days later. Janet Jackson married at 18, then divorced her husband the next year.

R163, David Rose married Judy just two months after divorcing Martha Raye.

He didn't need to "cash in". He was a very successful composer and musical conductor.

He composed the iconic theme "The Stripper", which must have earned him a lot of coin over the years.

Every generation thinks they've been the ones to just discover drugs and sex.

He took Joey and Lorna. Liza was on her own

not quite on her own tho. She was sleeping on her agent's sofa until her agent Stevie Phillips got L her first Broadway show. And so much more after.

[Quote]It was Judy turning her management over to Begleman that really did her in for good.

True but it was Begelman and Freddie Fields who brought Judy back out of hiding in London. A retirement of sorts. If they hadn't done this we wouldn't have Carnegie Hall or anything else from 1960s Judy.

Cliff Robertson never worked again after exposing David Begelman for the crook he was.

Liza exercised her independence very early. At a young age she was a popular performer, making very good money. She loved Judy but she also knew Judy was nuts and an addict and I'm sure she wanted to get away from the craziness.

Gerald Clarke, an idiot biographer of Judy who wrote the sleazy tome "Get Happy: The Life of Judy Garland" said that Judy wanted to keep little Liza away from her grandmother Ethel because Ethel was trying to "push" Liza into show business the way she'd "pushed" poor Judy. What horseshit! Liza Minnelli needed NO "pushing" into the entertainment industry. From childhood she was singing and acting and wanted to be a star, and she obtained success early. She needed no '"pushing" from anyone. Neither, for that matter, did Judy Garland. She was first brought onto a stage as a toddler; she loved the applause so much she practically had to be dragged off. Judy Garland, also from a very young age, wanted to sing and act and be a star. No "pushing" was needed.

I always thought Judy would have been brilliant as Mama Rose because she'd lived through that and would have nailed it. There was some talk of her doing the film before Roz and her lizard stole the film rights but I bet even that early they'd have had problems getting her insured.

Judy wouldn't been amazing as both Mama Rose and Mame, but there was no way she was up for eight shows a week at that point. It's a shame.

Herman said he wrote the score of Mame with her voice in mind and they wanted her badly as a replacement but they couldn't insure her. The same thing happened with VOTD. She looks like a wreck in the costume tests but that's not why she was let go. What really happened was that they announced her before they found out they couldn't insure her.

Judy WOULD'VE been amazing, I meant.

Joey use to sing back up for Lou Rawls back in the 80's, he's never done much else.

r179: After A STAR IS BORN, there was no way Warners would have hired Garland for GYPSY, no matter how perfect she would have been.

Garland in GYPSY would have perfection like Doris Day would have been in SOUTH PACIFIC.

[quote] Cliff Robertson never worked again after exposing David Begelman for the crook he was.

This is an idiotic statement. Robertson worked steadily into his early 80s. The Begelman scandal happened in the late 70s and Robertson has 34 acting credits after that (not counting the flashbacks they used of Uncle Ben in Spider Man 2 & 3). Yes, the scandal unfairly tarnished him in some corners, but he never stopped working.

Doris Day wasn't really a belter. Her Annie Get Your Gun is disappointing.

R99 she stayed for the house

Back go Joey. He reminds me of Cher's son, Elijah. Just quiet and wants to be unbothered. I mean he's the baby boy who probably never felt responsible for the legacy of his mom especially when he has two performer sisters, one who was a megastar, who ca. speak for him. Makes sense to me. It's work and siblings are odd about that.

R185 . . .

"For his part in exposing the embezzlement, Robertson said, he was blackballed in Hollywood for 3 1/2 years. “I broke the unwritten commandment: Thou shalt never confront a major mogul on corruption,” he told The Times in 1998. “Suddenly, the phone stopped ringing.”"

That's delightful, R189. It also completely flies in the face of what you stated, which was that Robertson never worked again. One glance at his IMDB page can tell you he never stopped working. Perhaps he wasn't getting certain roles or high profile gigs with certain producers that he was getting prior to the Begelman scandal (which I fully acknowledged in my response), but you stated (and I quote) "Cliff Robertson never worked again after exposing David Begleman for the crook he was."

Wrong.

R190, It's called hyperbole, numb nuts.

MEANWHILE, back at Liza and Joey and Lorna...

[quote]After "A Star is Born" wrapped, Sid stole all the furniture that was used in the beach house and had it taken to Chez Luft.

Incorrect. Luft and Garland's production company were making ASIB with Warner Bros. As a producer, Luft bought the furniture at a deep discount, for pennies on the dollar.

[quote]Joey use to sing back up for Lou Rawls back in the 80's, he's never done much else.

The blues singer?

There's a Showtime documentary called "Sid & Judy" that's worth watching.

I love watching The Judy Garland Show. Judy was in great form. I wonder why this show didn't pull in a larger audience at the time

Now reading about the behind-the-scene chaos (insanity) it's a wonder the show made it even through one season

R196, Because CBS put it up against "Bonanza" on Sunday evenings, which was the #1 rated show week after week for years.

BTW. Judy is shitfaced in that episode

Did Judy ever fall off the stage while performing?

[Quote] The blues singer?

Rhythm & Blue.

[quote] It's called hyperbole, numb nuts.

In other words, you got called out for being wrong and instead of admitting it, you're gonna keep digging that hole.

Good luck to you.

The Sid and Judy documentary is really interesting. While I love her, she was a piece of work.

Where's Joey today?

R202 Agreed she was, or could be. The great "what if" is would she have been such a piece of work with different adults in her life, different husbands, different agents.

Sid may have "come to the rescue' post-MGM, but he also helped dig the financial hole she couldn't get out of, and then Begelman and Fields came along made it worse...as well as the high tax percentages that no one pays anymore. The woman did the work and was a top earner until nearly the very end of her life. She is culpable in her situation, as we all are in our own, but it's worth remembering that as smart as she was, she only had an MGM schoolhouse level formal education.

Not Freed, but Pasternak apparently did the best job managing her late in her MGM career by simply treating her kindly and not starving her.

If she had a lot of money in the bank, she still would have died on the toilet.

[quote]The same thing happened with VOTD. She looks like a wreck in the costume tests but that's not why she was let go. What really happened was that they announced her before they found out they couldn't insure her.

I read that she was fired from Valley of the Dolls because she was found passed on out a pool table, flashing everyone who passed her pussy.

Patty Duke talked about Judy on set. Duke said the director was an asshole to Garland. Garland was probably late so it was probably with good reason but Duke thought a kid gloves approach would have yielded usable footage from JG.

R207 Nobody should have to go through that kind of bullshit for "usable footage."

It's a business.

Then it was idiotic for them to cast Judy in the first place, r208.

r208

I guess you don't want to see Tom Hardy in anything then.

R210 I don't care one way or the other.

[quote]It's a business

One of the ingredients in their product, r208, is human beings. With that can come human frailties.

[quote] I read that she was fired from Valley of the Dolls because she was found passed on out a pool table, flashing everyone who passed her pussy.

I recall that scenario from Gerald Clarke's sleazy biography of Judy entitled "Get Happy." Clarke is a big old Judy queen; he adores her and believes everything she said, not seeming to realize that Judy loved to make up stories in order to entertain an audience and that drug addicts are notorious liars. He believes her when she said that when she started work at age at MGM studios at age 13 all the men were after her plump little humpbacked bod, including Louis B. Mayer. He portrays her as the blameless victim of everybody around her, especially her mother, who he depicts as evil incarnate and solely to blame for Judy's lifelong love affair with drugs. When poor Ethel Gumm laments "Why does she hate me so?" Clarke answers that question for her in so many words: "Because you're an evil, wicked woman who forced her into show business and made her a drug addict!" Yes, Clarke does love his Judy. But he also has no qualms about digging up all the sleazy dirt he can on her. For instance, he claimed that she would fellate her gay lovers under tables in restaurants. He said one of her lovers asked her to sing a few bars of "Over The Rainbow" for him after she'd just given him a blow job; she obliged and sang for him "through a mouthful of semen." And he claims that she enjoyed the lesbo sex, saying "when you've eaten everything in the world there is to eat you have to find new things." But he says lesbo sex with just a "side dish" on Judy's sexual menu; men were always "the main course."

[quote]He said one of her lovers asked her to sing a few bars of "Over The Rainbow" for him after she'd just given him a blow job; she obliged and sang for him "through a mouthful of semen."

In the director's cut of "Valley of the Dolls", Helen Lawson does the same thing with "I'll Plant My Own Tree".

By '67 Judy Garland's mind was gone, her brain totally fried by drugs. She was not the same person.

But, WHERE IS JOEY?!!!!

So r213, you're appalled by Clarke's tawdry writing, but you proceed to rewrite all his sleazy tales here in DETAIL?!

Miss Toohey...

But her life WAS tawdry- big time- much more do than Clarke wrote. Harrowing is a better word.

WHERE. IS. JOEY?!!!!!

[quote] you're appalled by Clarke's tawdry writing, but you proceed to rewrite all his sleazy tales here in DETAIL?!

This is DATALOUNGE, hon! THE place for "sleazy tales." At any rate, I read his nasty book out of curiosity, to see if he had anything interesting or new to say about Garland. He didn't. He just talked about how mistreated she was and recounted gross stuff about her sex life and her drunk/drugged out behavior, like the pool table story. The folks at "Valley of the Dolls" wanted to make Judy happy so they gave her an antique pool table to amuse herself with (she liked playing pool) in her nice dressing room. Well, in a drug or alcohol haze she trashed the dressing room, damaged the pool table and was found lying on top of it with her dress hiked up so that her pubic hair was visible. Thanks for sharing that with us, Gerald! I've read several Judy Garland biographies. "Get Happy" is one of the worst ones.

[quote] If it takes nukes to win, he'll nuke. What's the rest of the world gonna do about it, huh?

You sound crazy. Like one of the nuts you seen in cartoons holding a sign saying "THE END IS NEAR."

Whenever Liza & Lorna temporarily settle their differences and make these appearances talking about "Mom", Lorna just always seems SO ECSTATIC to be on TV and heard from again.

Lorna has gone through a lot of health problems in recent years.

Oops! R222 belongs in the nuclear war thread.

[Quote] Lorna has gone through a lot of health problems in recent years.

Liza has been through so much diversity.

Joey.....Joey, Joey!

Shut up with the Joey bullshit. Yes we know he's retarded. You're not being funny.

Of what would "Joey at Carnegie Hall" consist?

Joey isn't brain damaged. He's been shown in video clips talking. He may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but he's got the same brain power as any random fat suburban dude.

I like the shapes that aren't squares.

Joey Luft does seem like he's impaired in some way. That's understandable. Judy did drugs while pregnant with him and probably drank, too. He nearly died at birth; one of his lungs failed to open. He was definitely affected by his mother's excesses.

Lorna wrote in her book that Joey has FAS. He's never been able to take care of himself.

That Judy stuff in Clarke's book is just disgusting. He loves her but writes all of that nasty shit? What an asshole.

Here's Gerald!

I'm not making fun of Joey. I'm serious: WHERE IS HE?

Why? Did you two arrange a date?

[quote] That Judy stuff in Clarke's book is just disgusting. He loves her but writes all of that nasty shit? What an asshole.

He loves Judy but included all the nasty bits because it sells books. Sex sells.

Singing "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" with a mouthful of cum is a lifegoal.

[quote]After "A Star is Born" wrapped, Sid stole all the furniture that was used in the beach house and had it taken to Chez Luft.

Sid Luft was the producer, he paid for the furniture, it was actually his to take.

[quote]Singing "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" with a mouthful of cum is a lifegoal.

Singing "The Man That Got Away" with an assfull of cum is a life reality.

[quote]Well, in a drug or alcohol haze she trashed the dressing room, damaged the pool table and was found lying on top of it with her dress hiked up so that her pubic hair was visible.

Is this why she was known as The Hairiest Pussy In Hollywood? Or was that earned earlier?

The belief that ANY Judy biography would "sell" is adorable.

They wouldn't keep writing them if they didn't sell. They wouldn't have been able to finance the Zelwegger movie (she's not "hot" in industry parlance) if it weren't for the Garland name.

The Gerold Frank bio from the 70s is one of the best. It was approved by her family and has exhaustive detail, especially on Judy's early life. It doesn't dwell on the worst of Judy's excesses while not completely giving her a pass. However, because it was published 50 years ago and had family input, Judy's father and all of her husbands are portrayed as heterosexual--which is probably why there is very little detail on Mark Herron or Mickey Deans (or Liza's husband Peter, for that matter).

There are a lot of Judy books that show how bad she got in later years, including Stevie Phillip's book, Rainbow's End (about her ill-fated TV show), and Lorna's Me and My Shadows. There are too many books by too many people for it not to be obvious that Judy was a fall-down fucking mess from the late 50s onwards.

I'm surprised Dirk Bogarde didn't devote a chapter to Judy in one of his books. He references her in many asides in his books -usually in private life - so it was obvious he knew her well He must have seen it all

Maybe he thought a full chapter would make him look a bit gay.

[quote]It was approved by her family

Always a reliable sign that a book/movie is full of bullshit.

The Frank book doesn't tell any untruths, it just glosses over a lot of unpleasant truths. You still get the picture of Judy as a deeply troubled person.

Bogarde might not have felt like spilling the tea on Judy in his own book because he cared about her. Plus, everybody already knows she was a mess.

Is the Mel Torme book any good? I know he's rather cruel to her in it, but is it accurate?

The 1963 filming of I Could Go on Singing was hell.

Weren't there some naked photos taken of Judy years ago, while she was lying unconscious in a hospital room in Australia?

Bogarde did do a segment on her, his I Could Go On Singing experience is in Snakes and Ladders.

A good bio of Judy is "Rainbow: the stormy life of Judy Garland" by Christopher Finch. It's well written, insightful and debunks a lot of tales Judy told. Has great photography, too.

In this fine A&E Judy biography Bogarde states that Judy was exhausting so he and other friends had to walk away. BTW June Allyson seemed a sweetheart.

In the last couple of years of her life, nobody could deal with Judy for more than a few weeks. She couldn't even deal with herself, constantly running from city to city with all her worldly goods in a couple of shopping bags. She was brain-damaged during her 1964 Hong Kong coma, and her life after that was one long downward spiral. They'd have been kinder not to resuscitate her in Hong Kong.

[quote]They'd have been kinder not to resuscitate her in Hong Kong.

Oh, Liza, what a thing to say!

Lorna's life would have been quite different if Judy had died in '64. Those years in the mid-60s where she had to look after her mother were deeply traumatizing. She partied most of the 70s away and by the time she got sober, her chance at stardom was gone.

If Lorna coulda been she woulda been. And that's show business.

She did have some good chances but lost them due to arrogance. They wanted her for the part of Gloria in All in the Family, but negotiations fell apart because she demanded a big salary and billing. She also had a chance at originating Grizabella in Cats, but again she clashed with the director and got canned. Landing a role in one of the most influential sitcoms or the biggest Broadways musicals of the 70s would have done wonders for her, but Lorna always thought she was a bigger deal than she ever was.

She seemed to take after her father in that respect: Sid always thought he was a big deal but in reality, he was a hustling gigolo whose projects rarely came to anything.

Lorna should have pursued a Broadway career. She did play the lead in the musical PROMISES, PROMISES after it had been running awhile and I distinctly remember reading that they did not want to advertise "Judy Garland's Daughter" but let people "discover" Lorna on her own. As far as I know, nothing much else came up after that. I believe she did originally have a role in the ill-fated musical LOLITA MY LOVE but was written out before rehearsals began. I happened to see her in the tour of GUYSS AND DOLLS after its big success with Nathan Lane and Faith Prince. She played Adelaide and was very good.

R261, Thank the Lord we have her one season on "Trapper John, MD" to cherish.

I saw Lorna in the 90s at the Palladium in London in a Judy tribute with many other performers like John Mills, Sally Kellerman, etc

It was a good show, but it was apparent that Lorna has not got IT. She's a bit of a yenta as well. Not a pleasing personality and she dominated the show when more time could have been given to far more interesting performers on the bill

Did Lorna do impersonations? No, I think I'm thinking about Barbra's sister whom nobody knows.

Please be Kind, R266

Lorna looked like a Long Island housewife, she had zero star quality.

BTW I should say that the fabulous Liliane Montevecchi was on the bill as well. She performed one magnificent number. Then we were stuck with Lorna again.

Now you've done it, R264. I have to post this clip. She made the credits but got there as the show was in its last season for 19 episodes, according to IMDB. They had the synthy theme that year instead of the caffeinated percussion-heavy version from earlier seasons.

It seems like Lorna almost happened in the 80s between features like Grease 2, Where the Boys Are '84, and a role on a series like Trapper John MD. Plus episodic guest shots like Murder She Wrote. And she was working in the theatre too, she did Extremities off-Broadway with Farrah.

She never had a label behind her singing career in the way Judy had Decca and Capitol, and Liza had Capitol and A&M.

She's about to do a concert in White Plains at the end of the month. How much does she make for a show like that?

Lorna was in her early 30s by the mid-80s. That was too old to really hit it big as a female star.

Besides her lack of IT factor, Lorna was also an entitled bitch. Even in her biography she talks about losing out on auditions because she had too much "New York attitude." Her agent told her to fake being nice if she couldn't be nice, and that helped, but it was still too late for her by then. If she'd gotten Grizabella and Gloria in the early 70s, she could have made it big, but that was her window and she missed it.

I read Lorna's book and she basically spent the 70s partying and doing coke. Of course Liza did a lot of that too, but she was still disciplined when it came to work. Lorna just didn't seem to give a fuck and wanted to party and get high all the time.

Lorna is Sid Luft in female form: lazy, entitled, loud but not particularly talented. She's spent her whole life coasting on her mother's and sister's fame.

Funny how Lorna looks absolutely nothing like Judy. She doesn't even have a faint, passing resemblance to her mother. You would never guess she's Judy's daughter.

R273, That's really disgusting.

Nope, she's a clone of her dad. She didn't get a single feature of Judy's.

What's odd is Joey, who doesn't really resemble either of his parents.

Joey had some resemblance to Judy when he was young.

Lorna has the same coloring and features of her father. Joey, when young, had dark eyes and hair like Judy, but didn't really resemble her. Liza is a total composite of her father and Judy.

Joey resembled Judy

Liza and Joey look more like full siblings than Lorna and Joey.

Judy banished Lorna from the family home for months after she injured infant Joey in an act of jealousy.

Liza hit Lorna in the head with a fondue pot.

r251, I didn't find it to be particularly accurate, mostly because he made himself the hero-slash-victim in every single story he told. He also would describe scenes from Judy's show which weren't accurate. He got away with it at the time because it wasn't showing on reruns, but these days you can just go to YouTube. I would read something he said about how Judy was "cross-eyed drunk and slurring" (or something along those lines) during a performance, look it up, and it wasn't like that at all.

The guy on these threads who always says that Judy brought everything on herself because, even as a toddler, she wanted to be a star, creeps me out more than almost any other of our Datalounge creeps. "She was 3 years old, she made her choices, she asked for every bad thing that ever happened to her!"

[quote]I read Lorna's book and she basically spent the 70s partying and doing coke. Of course Liza did a lot of that too, but she was still disciplined when it came to work.

Like going out in the alley to meet her "pharmacist" during intermission in Victor/Victoria?

That wasn't the 70s

[quote] The guy on these threads who always says that Judy brought everything on herself because, even as a toddler, she wanted to be a star, creeps me out more than almost any other of our Datalounge creeps. "She was 3 years old, she made her choices, she asked for every bad thing that ever happened to her!"

Who ever said that? I think you're confused. At any rate, even as a small child Judy Garland was destined to be a performer. It was in her blood. And when she became an adult it was her own decisions that shaped her life, no one else's. Do you consider Judy a blameless victim? If so you much love her very much.

Lorna sings Over the Rainbow. Oh gurl no, no . No.

What was with that Trapper John link? Lorna's not even in it, and there's some pretty bad shirtless men. WTF?

r166: You have to give David Rose credit. He never exploited Judy in a tell-all article or book, and as far as I know never talked about her at all.

Rose probably thought he had a lucky escape to get out early and not be pulled into Judy Garland's flying circus of bullshit. She only started experiencing serious mental health issues a few years after they divorced. His third marriage lasted 40 years, so he picked better that time around.

Sid was a thug. No getting around it.

R291, Prior to his marriage to Judy, David Rose had been married to Martha Raye.

Yes, that's why I said his third marriage was the successful one.

Most showbiz people tend to be fucked up in various ways. So none of this is a surprise.

It's Hollywood baby!

Are all of them slated to be with Judy when they die, Liza, Lorna and Joe?

Is that why her remains were moved from NY to CA?

Martha Raye could never be accused of being subtle, but she really gives a great impression of Judy singing "Over The Rainbow" without lapsing into caricature.

You know these broads dished Rose.

Judy's "At Last" was introduced by a dubbed Lynn Bari (the first Mrs. Sid Luft) in ORCHESTRA WIVES.

There probably wasn't much to dish. By all accounts David Rose was very nice and rather dull. Besides his musical virtuosity, his other defining trait was his obsession with miniature trains.

As opposed to his obsession with miniature trans?

[quote]David Rose had been married to Martha Raye.

So he was gay, too.

David Rose was the musical conductor on "The Red Skelton Show" for many years and Martha Raye guested on the show fairly often, so she and David crossed paths long after their divorce.

One of Martha Raye's seven husbands was Robert O'Shea, a hunky former cop.

Martha Raye. Wow. Talk about somebody who's totally forgotten today.

[quote] Martha Raye. Wow. Talk about somebody who's totally forgotten today.

She was a star in a long gone era. Unless you're interested in performers from other eras she wouldn't be someone most people would have heard of. I remember a few things about her. She did a great deal of performing for troops during wartime and won honors for her efforts. She was politically conservative. She did a series of commercials for Polident, a denture cleaner. And when she was half dead and in her seventies she married a forty something, giggling, gay as a goose golddigger named Mark Harris. She was married a total of SEVEN times. She had one child, a daughter. She was evidently a terrible mother; she once said she regretted not having aborted her daughter. The daughter ended up committing suicide. Martha Raye sounds like she was a very unpleasant person.

R305, There is no indication on the Internet that her daughter, Melodye Condos(77), is deceased.

Geez. All in the Family, Cats, and Lorna was Joe Hamilton's first choice to play Iola on Mama's Family as well.

She really made some shit decisions.

On the bright side, she did turn down playing Snow White opposite Rob Lowe at the oscars.

Hi Georgia!

The Liza on HSN thread was so much fun.

I had tickets to see Lorna starring in Hello, Dolly! at NSMT in Beverly, MA in 2012, but she injured her back and had to be replaced at the last minute.

[quote] here is no indication on the Internet that her daughter, Melodye Condos(77), is deceased.

I thought I heard somewhere that she killed herself. Anyway, she sued to get control of Raye's affairs, saying she was being used by her awful gold digging husband and of course that was true I don't know how the lawsuit came out, but I don't thinks she prevailed. As for Raye's husband Mark Harris...well, he is a piece of work. There was an article about him in the Washington Post that described the "merry widower" like this:

The Widow Raye is in a kittenish mood.

"What becomes a legend's husband the most," he vamps, slithering on the carpet of his Washington hotel suite wrapped in an ebony opera-length mink coat over a leopard-print blazer, camping it up like a 46-year-old Catskills hairdresser turned Vegas lounge lizard turned seventh husband of the recently deceased septuagenarian comedian Martha Raye.

His eyes are pale violet ("I have Elizabeth Taylor eyes") and he appears to be wearing eyeliner.

Ohh boyhhh!

In the annals of May-December marriages, stranger unions have occurred, especially in Hollywood, where men not unlike the fame-obsessed, pinkie-ringed, liposuctioned bisexual Mark Harris have been known to prey on older, wealthy divas with equal parts devotion and disdain.

For a monthly allowance, they blow-dry what's left of the diva's hair, do the shopping and cooking, remind the diva on a daily basis what a fabulous star she still is, and every so often are invited to share the diva's bed, although sexual performance is secondary to slavish attention and the will to gossip. They also are expected to listen patiently while the star drones on about Sammy Goldwyn or Hedda Hopper or the Brown Derby, often late into the night over several bottles of wine. In return, the young men -- usually frustrated performers -- bask in the fading glow of the spotlight, desperately cranking up the publicity machine like a teenager trying to push-start a '57 Chevy.

They also must learn the cliches: wishing they had been born earlier, feeling blessed they have even a short time together, and of course, not caring about the money. Estate? She left it to moi?

Mark Harris died a couple of years back.

[quote] Mark Harris died a couple of years back.

I don't think many people would have shed tears at his demise. Martha Raye's marriage to him was truly pitiable. A friend asked her why she married him and she said "he's a man...and I don't want to be alone." He was an evil gold digging creep who took advantage of a lonely, rich, dying old woman.

When Martha Raye guest starred on "Alice" she would take out her dentures and give gumjobs to the crew.

Her goofy looks and odd persona tended to obscure that Martha Raye was a very talented singer.

She certainly holds her own with Judy in that clip.

"Mark Harris, the seventh and final husband to Hollywood actress Martha Raye and a frequent Stern Show visitor throughout the 1990s whose death was rumoured few years was confirmed dead today by Howard.

The singer according to reports died on September 28, 2018, in Los Angeles, Nevada, the USA at the age of 71.

The executive producer Gary Dell’Abate said he got the information about Mark’s death from his childhood friend Barry, who said the self-proclaimed singer died in 2018 after he got really sick.

“Mark left Barry … some tapes, some memorabilia, and 15 chapters of a memoir that wasn’t finished,” Barry told Gary."

So Mark Harris was "a frequent Howard Stern show visitor?" If that doesn't prove he was a freak I don't know what does.

R317, His Stern appearances back in the 1990s were hilarious.

Mark and Howard

[quote] His Stern appearances back in the 1990s were hilarious.

I'm sure they were! He was a laughingstock.

Who of Liza, Lorna and Joey will die first?

It was great when Mark sang on Stern's show. Awful, but he took great pride in his performances. Fred played howling dogs as Mark sang.

Did Mark ever duet with Robert Rees?

R322 accompanied by Daveed on violin.

A classic Mark Harris appearance on Stern was when a guy called in who had lived in the same neighborhood as Mark and his first wife and he told about how Mark used to proposition all the good looking married straight men in the neighborhood.

I started noticing that, at least in texts, my adult, Midwestern, niece would refer to her mother, my sister, as “mama.” At first, I thought only that was essentially a Southern colloquialism, until it dawned on me that this was how Judy’s girls refer to her.

Rose is from Seattle.

Who knew Joey was hot at one point?

My grandmother and her best friend Betty got their furs, climbed into Betty's Cadillac and drove from Chicago to Vegas. I don't know how, but they spent the weekend drinking with Martha Raye.

And gay too, R328

Is/was Joey gay? Is that actually verified?

Gays like pink.