Joss Whedon Redemption Tour Begins

Who?

He is contemptible.

And being live-roasted on Twitter.

I’m not sure why agreed to the article, he comes off like a piece of shot of the first degree.

Eww that little earring of his.

Paywalled.

It is interesting that the creator fandom that began with him way back when is now being used against him by the Snyderbots.

Not for me, R5. And I certainly don’t have a subscription.

He seems to blame his parents quite a bit. And PTSD from his childhood because he felt like everyone bullied him? Welcome to the real world, sweetie. Insufferable.

R2 I'm more interested in the response of those involved with his shows. Funny, no one from Firefly ever came out to attack or defend him.

Twitterbots...eh.

Didn’t he molest or beat people or something?

R9 the accusations are of being a professional tyrant and having consensual affairs.

It seems like the worst ones are always the fat ugly ones. I wonder if these guys have so many issues with women because they've been turned down so many times.

It's all bout the $$$$$$!

Michelle Trachtenberg implied that he was a hebephile.

But the way he handled Charisma Carpenter’s pregnancy on “Angel” was really degrading to her and the subsequent way she was written out of the series was really insulting.

Somewhat surprising to me that he agreed to be interviewed. It's honestly a pretty balanced piece, probably more than he actually deserves, but he still comes off as either, at worst, a toxic predator or at best an arrogant douchebag.

I'm not sure if it was a good strategy for him to handle the Justice League fallout by arguing that Gal Gadot lacked the English skills to understand him properly and by calling Ray Fisher a bad actor.

That said, I don't really blame him for what happened to Justice League. Snyder, let's be honest, is a total hack.

Joss most likely won't ever get a decent creative gig again, which seems to me an appropriate outcome.

What actress will want to work with him? His behavior is absolutely disgusting.

That face. I can see the insincerity and contempt leering out from those venal eyes.

Interesting article, he comes across very Trumpian.

It was my mother. It was my bullying brothers. It was a bad actor. It was her poor English.

It was my ex-wife and her letter. It made me very "gettable."

Yeah right, grow the fuck up and take a little responsibility instead of blaming others.

Plus, the Internet! R17.

“The beginning of the internet raised me up, and the modern internet pulled me down,” Whedon said. “The perfect symmetry is not lost on me.”

It WAS his mother. She named him “Joss”, ffs.

R19 she named him Joseph.

The shitty thing is that all nuance is lost. Some idiot on Twitter pointed to a Firefly storyline as to evidence of him being a pedophile. (The Saffron episode)

Christina Hendricks was 27 when that was filmed and there was nothing in the episode that implied she was underage.

What in the FUCK?

He's basically an incel getting his revenge.

He is an utterly repellant human being, and this article just makes that even more clear.

Good long train of thought

Two things -

It’s clear he hasn’t changed at all and has no remorse. This is just a PR exercise, not any attempt to come clean.

And, wow, nerds always have the freakiest sex lives.

Is Buffy worth watching?

He really does not come across well in this article. He sounds self-pitying and weak-willed. The story about humiliating that writer in front of all her colleagues under the guise of a lecture about terrible writing was awful.

I wonder which Angel actress asked for a raise and was told that she would never work for Fox again. Amy Acker said she had a "positive experience" on Angel and is widely rumoured to have had an affair with Whedon, so I doubt it was her. If it was Charisma Carpenter, she would have mentioned it last year. The only other long-running female characters I can remember are Lilah, Darla and Kate.

It's interesting that Allyson Hannigan never commented on the situation, despite just about every other principal of Buffy saying something.

"I have a lot of complicated thoughts about Joss Whedon." ---Twitter'Tard tweeting.

Possibly the only time you ever read, hear, say? anything like that ever. The stooge has multiple thoughts about some dime-a-dozen director/producer in Hollywood. Uhhhhhhhhh

He's just another Hollywood delusional. Very likely suffers from some sort of mental issue that prohibits him from ever taking responsibility for anything he does wrong. Everything bad that happens to him is always someone else's fault.

Sound like someone we know? Yep, just like Trump, he's a narcissistic sociopath.

He believes he is a great auteur, so his ego, not money, drives him to return to making films.

I want to know who the Buffy actresses he was fucking were. I’m assuming one was Alyson Hannigan since she was known to be his foot soldier on Buffy. It’s all but confirmed he was fucking Amy Acker but that was on Angel. But who was the other? Felicia Day?

A writer alleged he was sleeping with a Buffy cast member, I wonder who it was.

The Justice League situation is just bizzare. I think Joss was upset that the JL cast wasn’t deferential to him after his successes at Marvel (I LOL’ed at Gal Gadot telling him he clearly doesn’t understand how superhero movies work) but at the same time, I do think Snyder was probably lighting a fire under Ray Fisher, and the job given to Whedon sounded pretty impossible because no one was happy Snyder was let go.

It’s nowhere near the worst thing on his list of misbehaviors, but his attempting to dismiss what Gal Gadot said about him by claiming she just doesn’t speak English well is jaw-droppingly stupid.

His alleged mistresses were Aly Hannigan, Summer Glau, Eliza Dushku, and Amy Acker. He seems to love the big-eyed waif type.

He doesn't show a lick of true remorse and he's still blaming everybody else for what happened. Punch and delete.

I’m surprised Dushku hasn’t milked the opportunity to call herself a victim and make an easy twenty million again.

R34 Eliza seems too muscular for him. He liked the stick figure types: Hannigan, Glau, Acker. There was also the girl who was the lead in Much Ado About Nothing and then vanished

It was Eliza Dushku I always thought funnily enough. She did dollhouse with him also. Interesting photo they chose of Joss looking at Dushku adoringly.

He doesn't come across well though at all. Personally criticising those that said you were a bully? That does nothing to dissuade people that's exactly what you are.

I thought the same about that photo of Eliza Dushku with Joss, R38. I interpreted that as a hint.

Incidentally, Dushku, Acker and Glau were all given roles on Dollhouse.

I really hope Sarah Michelle Gellar never fucked this twit.

Did it ever come out why he couldn’t be alone in a room with the girl who played Buffy’s sister?

R42 no she declined to comment. The most logical idea is that he either yelled at her or said something creepy. Of course Twitter idiots are claiming he raped her or something horrific like that. I have to imagine if it was anything THAT serious, there would've been more of a response from her people than that.

What happened to The Nevers?

Of course he claims cancel culture and that he's one of the good guys.

[quote]People had been using “every weaponizable word of the modern era to make it seem like I was an abusive monster,” he said. “I think I’m one of the nicer showrunners that’s ever been.”

Less comeback and more digging a deeper hole. I’ve always been ambivalent about Snyder’s work and thought of myself as a Whedon fan, but the stuff that has come out makes Whedon sound repellent. He should stick to script doctoring and living off the Marvel money. The only people who could ask him to direct without blowback at this point are the producers behind those shitty “Christian” movies.

What about that Gunn guy, didn’t he manage to crawl back?

R13 I'd take Michelle's word with a big grain of salt. She seems to have some mental or developmental disorder.

James Gunn made some tasteless jokes on Twitter. He was never accused of actually mistreating people.

Justice League was a tar baby he was foolish and egomaniacal enough to attach himself to. He got $20 million I believe for it.

James Gunn knew how to make it work!

James Gunn is loved by his cast; when he was fired the Guardians cast released an open letter asking for him to be reinstated and Dave Bautista flat out said if they didn’t hire James Gunn back he would do what his contract required and nothing more. I think Kevin Feige really wanted him back too. Ironically it might have been the best thing to happen to Gunn because not only is he the mind behind the cosmic side of the MCU, but he’s basically the new creative director over at DC

Redemption??!! Lol. That NY Magazine article absolutely buries him. He buries himself! He’s NEVER coming back.

His personality disorder is on full display in this article. Wow.

[quote]I wonder which Angel actress asked for a raise and was told that she would never work for Fox again.

Mercedes McNab?

I can't believe he dedicated all that time and energy to bullying Charisma Carpenter when she was pretty much universally adored on both the Buffy and Angel sets. One of the main reasons Boreanaz refuses to have anything to do with him to this day.

"I don't even like taking notes from Robert Downey Jr."

That's rich. You just know someone from the cast said "the Buffy guy?" when it was announced who would be directing Avengers. I guarantee you Whedon was way too intimidated by that cast to pull his shit.

R37, Dushku was muscular during her run on Buffy. When she was shooting Dollhouse, she was painfully thin.

She and Summer Glau also share a more than passing resemblance. He certainly has a type.

I remember when the racists on this forum were attacking Ray Fisher for not bowing down to him. Then they conveniently had nothing to say about Gal Gadot.

You can really see how thin Dushku was in this picture. She looks like she's starving.

R57 I thought Ray Fisher was an idiot for calling out studio heads on his first job. It's not racism, it's sensibility. The "I won't work for DC unless X Y and Z are fired"? Yeah...not smart

R58 You have no evidence Joss was responsible for that. He cast heavier actresses before who weren't stick thin. Amber Benson and Miracle Laurie for instance. Laurie praised him because he told her NOT to lose weight for Dollhouse.

Not every problem can be laid at Joss' feet.

Gal Gadot does seem a bit dim, to be honest

R59

It’s absolutely racist to suggest the black man should just shut up and take the abuse. Fuck you.

R62 I would tell anyone new in Hollywood to shut up, but hey, I like getting paid.

Amber Benson got treated like shit, so much so that she refused to come back for a guest arc after she was written off. Miracle Laurie being treated well was an exception, certainly not the rule. All of his other actresses got thinner and thinner. SMG was a shadow of her former self by the time the series ended.

R63

People like you are why the abusers and predators are allowed to get away with shit.

R65 walking away from a major franchise because Warner Bros wouldn't fire a number of top executives? Yeah, great idea Ray.

I saw Mercedes McNab in person during her Angel days. She looked rather voluptuous onscreen. In real life, she was tiny and extremely slim though not unhealthy looking. I can't imagine what actresses who DO look unhealthily thin on camera look like in person.

Joss did, after all, call the pregnant Charisma Carpenter fat and asked her if she was getting an abortion. I can totally see him pressuring an actress to be rail-thin, especially if she was the female lead like Carpenter on Angel, SMG on Buffy, or Duskhu on Dollhouse.

R66

It actually was a great idea. His fan support has skyrocketed and people see who Whedon really is now.

Fisher's biggest complaints were, in his words, concerns that his character would be seen as a stereotype or negative representation of African Americans. I can completely understand that, but a first time actor (and not a nepotism hire) expecting major creative input with a major studio? Goooood luck.

And the fact that Ray is still (before this article came out) going off on Twitter about studio execs...he's likely to make himself a pariah.

R64 He treated the skinny ones like shit too. Amber has never accused him of going after her weight. Actresses in Hollywood are always skinny and many of them lose even more weight because of their own insecurity and vanity. You don't have a shred of proof that Joss was responsible for their weight loss. You need proof to support your claims. Otherwise, you're spreading propaganda.

Joss has done enough shitty things. We don't need to make stuff up. Get proof then you can hang him for it.

Even Zack Snyder hasn’t hired him again and he’s done two projects at Netflix already.

He’s out of touch with the age group he used to write for.

It’s like I’m in an alternate dimension on DataLounge…where Ray Fisher is the bad guy for doing the right thing. Literally everywhere else is 100% behind him.

R73 except those in hiring positions. Sometimes doing the right thing isn't the smart thing. Personally, in his position, I would've just made the damn superhero movies, gotten paid a pile of money, and used my increased leverage in the industry to make projects that are a positive representation of African Americans.

R73 Twitter isn't 'everyone'. Please leave your echo chamber.

Where the fuck do you think you are, R70? This is a gossip board. Nobody has to prove shit.

Actresses are insecure because male producers and agents tell them their careers are over if they don't look like walking skeletons with big fake boobs.

R76 Who am I? I'm someone who isn't vindictive and mentally retarded, which is more than I can say for you.

Slander is a crime BTW.

Oh fuck off, R78. Blocked.

Reading is fundamental, R78. Nobody cares who you are. The sad thing is you don't know WHERE you are: DL, the home of pointless, cruel bitchery.

If saying Joss pressured actresses who gained weight is slander, then New York magazine committed slander. The Charisma Carpenter fat story is right in the article.

Joss, don't you have better things to do than hanging out on Datalounge?

Wait--I guess you don't, because your career is over.

R81 Hey moron, I was referring to the actresses on Dollhouse. Get a brain.

No you weren't, R82. You mentioned Amber Benson, too. She was never on Dollhouse.

What a weird little hill you've decided to die on, but you do you, boo.

R83 You're so thick. I mentioned Amber AFTER. My original post was addressing Eliza Dushku's weight on Dollhouse.

I wonder if any of his former actors/actresses will come out in response to this piece? Charisma could probably use a little publicity these days.

Nicholas Brendon kind of defended him in an IG story.

I’ve noticed that none of Nicholas Brendon’s “Buffy” castmates follow him on IG, even though he follows them. Do they all dislike him?

Ouch. I would think so.

None of the women he slept with will want to deal with the publicity shitstorm. The affairs were consensual and they've all moved on. Gross, but nobody was raped.

Nick has had his share of issues over the years. Alyson made sure he was at the Entertainment Weekly reunion. David tried to keep him from attending.

Brendon has had a serious drinking problem for years. He's humiliated himself at various conventions with his out-of-control behavior. He's about as welcome to Buffy alums as Dustin Diamond was to the Saved by the Bell actors.

I genuinely hope Nick can deal with his demons.

Marsters sort of defended Whedon in an interview after the scandal last year. He talked about it on Michael Rosenbaum's podcast.

It seems like Nick fell off the bandwagon as soon as he no longer had that regular paycheck from “Buffy.”

Rumor had it that his drinking problem was pretty bad the last couple of seasons of Buffy, which is why the Xander character was mostly sidelined.

Heterosexuality always leads to insanity. Men should fuck men. Period.

Nick was molested by a teacher and he never got therapy for it. I forget if he told his parents and they ignored it or if they didn't know until much later.

Once Buffy ended, he started getting into trouble, but at a certain point, he went from 2 arrests in 5 years to 5 arrests in 2 years. His previous manager got tired of his antics and his new one was a starfucker who got him whatever substance he wanted, hence the arrests happening more frequently. She was the one who went on Dr. Phil to drag him. And as we learned from Shelley Duvall, no one should ever go on Dr. Phil if they're seeking genuine help.

I haven't spoken to Nick in a few years, but I hope he's doing better. He's a mess with a lot of issues, but I don't think he's evil.

R95, was that teacher Mary Kay Laturno?

The teacher was a man

[quote]I really hope Sarah Michelle Gellar never fucked this twit.

I feel fairly confident that Hell would have frozen over before that happened. They were quite frosty toward each other back when the show was filming, and didn't bother hiding it.

r29 And yet he's woke as they come. . . refusing to do a number of shows unless they checked all the boxes. go figure.

R25, the early seasons are better written. My favourite is later, though, Once More with Feeling.

I have watched the entire series twice. I think it’s worth it if you watch television.

Joss Whedon also cast Elizabeth Olsen, and while she does have the wide eyed, cold beauty that Joss loves in his muses, I don’t think she’s a waif. She kind of reminds me of Jennifer Lawrence a bit in that she’s slim but you can tell she doesn’t starve herself, which is nice to see.

As for Ray Fisher... I feel bad for him and I do think he was thrown to the wolves. I also believe that test audiences didn’t like the character. The same thing happened with Chris Hemsworth’s Thor... Joss wrote the character as cold, serious and arrogant and he was everyone’s least favorite character. Loki was the star and I remember a super awkward press conference in Europe where a reporter flat out asked Chris how does it feel to have Loki outshine Thor. Chris went to Marvel unhappy and they completely revamped the character. In Ragnarok they take some sly shots as Whedon too.

I know Cyborg was supposed to be in Flash but apparently he was cut out. It’s sad he didn’t get a chance to revamp the character

R101 It's his own doing. He said he wouldn't work with the executives there and they said "ok, boy bye"

Joss only excels at TV. He could never do movies. Age of Ultron was a mess and the worst of all the Marvel films. The only good film of his is Toy Story.

I was a huge Buffy fan and was part of the online fandom back then. I remember the message boards where the writers and Joss used to interact with fans which was pretty cool. Pretty much every interview the actors and writers gave was about Joss’s genius, „in Joss we trust.“ Then the fans started doing this, too. Joss was a god to us (Mary! I know!). Even at the reunion shot for EW, the cast had nothing but praise for him.

To find out now that it was all bullshit makes me sad. Buffy means a lot to me, the show got me through some dark times in my life and for that I am grateful.

I believe that Joss is a bully and an asshole. I just wish some of them mentioned this sooner, instead of creating this „happy family“ fantasy.

I'm so glad I never watched a moment of Buffy. SMG will always be Kendall Hart to me.

The Zack Snyder version of Justice League was wonderful. A an absolute feast for the eyes, with a compelling, even moving story.

It's funny how the "woke" crowd used to love Whedon and excoriate Snyder. Oh, how THAT worm has turned. Ray Fisher and Gal Godot adore Zach.

BTW, don't @ me for saying woke. I'm a Trump hating, Democrat voting homosexaul.

The guy sounds like a real creep. When you see behind the scenes of these shows, so very often it's the same story: guy who was a nerd in school and treated badly, grows up to be a tyrant, and justifies it to themselves as being only fair because of what they went through as a child.

I haven't read the article in detail, because I don't think I can deal with listening to his pity party, but one thing that I did read online (via Roxane Gay who was INCENSED!) that I had thoughts about was him saying he had affairs because these were hot women who he'd always regret not sleeping with when he was older. And the thing is, I can sorta see what he's saying there. Note that I'm not sympathising with him at all, but if you think of it from the point of view that he is a guy who was probably rejected by hot girls at school and now he's in a position of power and they are coming to him, and he knows that this is his only life and he's only getting older and he wants to see what it's like, well...

He should've put his big boy pants on though and spoken about these feelings with his wife rather than cheating. One of the reasons I much prefer being gay is that guys are better at talking this kind of thing out, I find. I dunno what my point really is, because I'm not condoning it, but at the same time the whole cheating thing is something I've always thought isn't my business, unless it's my partner cheating on me. That's for only the people involved to work out.

Perhaps it's just that for me, if my partner told me he wanted to sleep with someone else just to fulfill a fantasy, I'd be ok with that. Sex doesn't bother me so much, it's the emotional betrayal that is harder.

R29 STFU, narcissism troll. There is no such thing.

R107, beware the ugly ducklings who become swans — they are LETHAL. When you come into power after being an underdog, you will be on a power trip and you’ll do anything to avoid giving it up.

R107, I think cheating does so much more harm, not just on a micro level, but on a macro level in the aggregates and I think it is a much worse vice than racism. I wish the left would cancel cheaters the same way they cancel people who utter the N word or say something offensive.

6 years ago, I hooked up with a married lawyer while his husband was out of town for his aunt’s funeral. They were expecting a baby at the time. And no, it was not an open relationship because he often posts on Facebook how he’s monogamous.

As the years passed, I always see him post shit on Facebook talking about how RACIST Republicans are.

All I can think is, “You can call Republicans racist all you want, but at the end of the day, you still cheated on your husband while you guys were expecting a baby and he was out of town for a funeral. Calling out other people’s racism doesn’t absolve you of that.”

R110 sounds like a real twat. Yuck.

R103 Cabin In The Woods was good. Bradley Whitford was hilarious.

Joss is clearly a piece of shit, and it makes me sad because I love what he created. I can mentally separate the two and will always enjoy Buffy/Angel/Firefly/Avengers, but I can't support anything new he might be involved with in future.

It's always so disappointing when someone brilliant who you admire turns out to be a cunt.

What a retarded way to look at the world. Spector killed some bitch but does that mean I hate all of his iconic Wall of Sound songs? Fuck that shit.

It was pretty telling when all this blew up who remained radio silent...

*cough*Amy Acker*cough*Aly Hannigan*cough*

He's not a POS. He's just a human.

He is definitely a piece of shit.

I see many white men and their sympathizers love defending men like this, especially to “stick it to” a black person like Ray Fisher. It’s creepy.

His utterly misguided non defence of his actions in that article sums him up. Utter wanker. I did laugh at him slagging off Gal Gadot’s language abilities as she’s a shit actress and the perpetrator of that Imagine shit. Maybe she rejected his creepy advances and that’s at the root of his ire.

Gal Gadot really can’t act. Criticizing her language skills instead of her acting was Joss trying to be less of an asshole probably.

I sort of repeated what you just said about Gal r119.

Ray and Gal were completely right about Joss and everything. Anyone feeding into his bullshit is scum.

Joss Whedon could have found forgiveness from fans if he had just OWNED his mistakes. Perhaps because his ego is so fragile, he never seems willing to take true responsibility for the shit he did. When his wife accused him (rightly) of cheating, he tried to gaslight her. When she wrote that letter to the public, he blamed his actions on the "beautiful, aggressive, needy" women he worked with. Now he's telling us that it was his rotten childhood and ALSO that a lot of what we've heard about him is lies. Uh-huh.

He's a total narcissist. He'll never own anything, and that's why he can't pull off a redemption tour.

R123 when that letter came out Buffy fans tried to brush it off by saying that Joss cheating wasn't a big deal and nothing shady happened or affected the cast in any way.

Not all Buffy fans. There was a lot of grumbling online, especially among female fans, that maybe Joss had feet of clay. It started the real cracks in his reputation that grew larger and larger when the DC scandal started.

His "Redemption Tour" stumbles out of the gate, makes him seem even worse than he was before, and now it's becoming more and more difficult to watch his old shows knowing what was behind them.

He coulda just stayed quiet. He shoulda just stayed quiet.

That's all he had to do. He's rich, newly married, and has a mansion in Santa Monica. Just STFU up and enjoy your life, dude. Things were just beginning to calm down about him when he had to give this interview and stir it all up again. Typical narcissist who always needs the last word.

Anybody who's had escaped a malignant narcissist and then done research to figure out what the hell just happened recognizes from this interview that Joss is one. BIG time.

Other humans are toys to them. They can never admit to being at fault. Deflect, gaslight, manipulate.

That poor female writer who kept waffling. "Joss is a beautiful person, and he was abusive, but not toxic, and working for him was horrific, but it was really my fault, probably. Wasn't it?" perfectly demonstrates the mindset of people who've been steamrolled by narcissists and still haven't figured out that's what happened. I hope somebody clues her in because otherwise I could see her stuck in this loop forever.

Puts the concept of Dollhouse in a whole new light, doesn't it?

R43, I agree that it's extremely unlikely the incident with Michelle Trachtenberg involved anything sexual, and that he probably just shouted at her. Although Whedon's affairs with cast members were (by his own admission) iffy in terms of power dynamics, there's been no suggestion they were non-consensual. He's a dick, but I highly doubt he's a sexual predator.

Sleeping with your subordinates is always predatory behavior because the power dynamics are never fair. However, I agree that he's not a rapist. He's just a narcissistic douche.

It's weird that Trachtenberg won't say what the incident was. If he just yelled at her, why not say so?

Maybe so r130 but doesn’t the whole concept of “consensual” get murky when it’s your extremely powerful boss coming on to you? Doubtful that these women wanted to fuck him because of his charming personality, and god knows it wasn’t his looks.

Amy Acker has a cute husband. Sucks that she cheated on him with a doughy troll like Joseph Whedon.

Yeah, you do have a point, R131 and R133.

In entertainment, in particular, these types of relationships seem like straight quid pro quo: I’ll fuck you so I get to stay on the show, or get a bigger part. That actually is textbook sexual harassment.

R133, men used to marry their secretaries all the time. Enough of this “power dynamic” bullshit. There are remedies available for women who don’t want to sleep with their bosses and get fired in retaliation. If a subordinate is not going to exercise his/her rights in such a situation, that’s on them.

[quote] Sleeping with your subordinates is always predatory behavior because the power dynamics are never fair.

OK, frau. 🙄

These women know exactly what they’re doing. They’re not some innocent, helpless damsel in distress.

[quote]Gal Gadot really can’t act. Criticizing her language skills instead of her acting was Joss trying to be less of an asshole probably.

Criticizing her language skills is much more of an assholish behavior than doing that to her acting.

Charisma responds

I can't stand Gal Gadot but her English is undoubtedly 200% better than this blowhard's Hebrew.

Yeah, Gal has lived and worked in the US for a number of years. I'm sure her English is fine.

I’m sorry, I can’t possibly take someone seriously who is named Charisma, her parents or agent should be shot, whichever one is responsible for that. Gal is not a great looking name either, but I’ll give a pass for cultural reasons.

Remember when this guy made a big deal out of what a "feminist" he was?

Beware of any man who calls himself a feminist.

That's not to say men can't be feminists. But if they call themselves that, loudly and often, there's an ulterior motive.

R145 I find that true of anything someone makes a big deal out of. A guy who says he's a "nice guy" isn't, a person who claims to be a "good Christian" rarely is, etc.

No point in trying to redeem yourself if you're still a twat.

I knew Charisma would be speaking up about this. Her response is dead-on: Whedon is a narcissistic tyrant who can't take responsibility for his fuck-ups.

I can see why Ray Fisher would have been peeved at Joss reducing the focus on his character and trimming scenes featuring more of his backstory and journey. But I think Joss actually got better performances out of him, and Cyborg was the standout character for me in the theatrical version of the film. Snyder can't do subtle to save his life.

R123 STFU, narcissism troll. There is no such thing.

Redemption tour?! He self-immolated with that interview.

Bye, Joss.

[quote]Puts the concept of Dollhouse in a whole new light, doesn't it?

The concept was disturbing from the get-go. Now the article says he roleplayed the show in his relationship with a 'sex educator' dominatrix as “owner and doll". He identified with the character of the nerdy scientist who imprints the dolls with their personalities and who was picked to work at the dollhouse because he had no morals. Subtle! Said lady had written a book where she said one of her worst memories was of a boyfriend breaking up with her on her birthday. so what did he do when he read the book? [quote]In 2015, hours before her birthday, he came over to her house and told her their relationship was over. “If he was like, What could I do to Arden that would be her worst nightmare?, that would have been it,” she said. “Joss destroyed a beautiful thing just to show he had the power to. That’s literally everything you need to know about him.”

[quote] There was a lot of grumbling online, especially among female fans, that maybe Joss had feet of clay.

This is the key right here. ALL influential people have feet of clay, because we're all flawed human beings, so Joss is no different. But a lot of these female fans put Joss on a pedestal as if he were some sort of god and they were part of his Buffy cult. He was a Svengali type with young women who hadn't figured out who they were yet so would glom on to Joss's "wisdom" desperate to live in his church. And he was a greedy pig getting off on the power he had over these women, exploiting them to feed his own ego. And he gained this power over them because he'd promoted himself as the male face of feminism by writing sexy little girls as kick ass in their own right. Whedon is an intelligent man with a flair for language. A lot of women fall for that shit.

The former sex worker who wrote the pickup book even fell for it, and the doll/owner scenario they played with said a lot about Whedon's need to be seen as a creator of women's power. Like he'd chosen them or something and was bestowing a great gift on them with his attention. Definitely delusions of grandeur, probably emboldened by a couple of decades of cocaine use. Note in the interview how he admits to sex and "love" addiction. He wants women to fall in love with him so he can dump them.

As for the rest of it, a lot of his behavior was typical of a successful director who wanted the talent to bow to his au-thor-itay. He ended up being another Michael Bay, just with a fancier vocabulary who could drop Shakespearean references. The dig against Gadot - look, she's a terrible actress who's said her fair share of stupid stuff, but I think Whedon bringing up that she wasn't a native English speaker was more about nuance, not that she didn't understand the language. I see it all the time on the internet. You can understand another language without necessarily getting their idioms and dry humor, and people often misunderstand a joke because they are thinking too literal. It seems plausible that Gadot and Whedon would be on a completely different level of wordplay.

I enjoyed Buffy like a lot of people once upon a time. But it was a guilty pleasure, the show looked cheap and a lot of it was cheesy, let's be honest. It wasn't exactly prestige television that's remembered on the same level as The Wire and Breaking Bad. Over the years, the gossip that came out about the behind the scenes had already painted a dark, nasty picture and so I wasn't really shocked by the affairs and the ego-tripping behavior of the showrunner. The letter online by his wife was tacky, but I get she wanted his acolytes to know who he really was as a person. I think that twitter thread up top was interesting when it suggested Whedon was purposely sabotaging this interview because he's unwell.

We now have an anti-narcissism troll?

Let me preface this by saying that I in no way think that Joss Whedon is a rapist, abusive cult leader.

That said, R153's post reminds me of what I've read about the NXIVM guy with his need to control a woman's every action, from what she wears to what she eats, and uses her for his own pleasures and purposes.

Again, Whedon is nOT the same level of monster as Keith Raniere, nor does Whedon deserve to go to prison. But man, I bet he and Ranier like the same porn.

[Quote] But I think Joss actually got better performances out of him, and Cyborg was the standout character for me in the theatrical version of the film. Snyder can't do subtle to save his life.

The amount of focus Ray got compared to the theatrical cut is like night and day.

[Quote] But it was a guilty pleasure, the show looked cheap and a lot of it was cheesy, let's be honest. It wasn't exactly prestige television that's remembered on the same level as The Wire and Breaking Bad.

Has anyone ever said that though? Buffy is a pop culture phenomenon and blows other teen sci-fi shows out of the water. Especially compared to the crap CW churns out now like The Vampire Diaries.

[Quote] Again, Whedon is nOT the same level of monster as Keith Raniere, nor does Whedon deserve to go to prison. But man, I bet he and Ranier like the same porn.

Good thing Allison and Kristin were on Smallville then lol

What the hell name is Joss a nickname for anyways?

Joss Stone

r133 power?

r115 Kristine Sutherland (Joyce Summers) too... but she was hand picked by Joss.

What about Chloe from AoS? Do you think she had to?

Did Joss cast AoS? I know he was a producer but I thought the show was more of his brother’s

R162 heard Joss worked on it uncredited because Jed wasn't doing a great job.

[quote]It seems like the worst ones are always the fat ugly ones.

He and Andre Leon Talley both died this week.

[quote]The guy sounds like a real creep. When you see behind the scenes of these shows, so very often it's the same story: guy who was a nerd in school and treated badly, grows up to be a tyrant, and justifies it to themselves as being only fair because of what they went through as a child.

Not defending the guy - he does sound like a very insecure and insufferable guy who took an idea and built this weird cult of personality situation allowing him to enact out all his nerd fantasies. And his comments about Gadot not understanding english - oy!

That said, I can imagine his behavior is not so uncommon in Hollywood, particularly for people considered to have a magic touch. As was reading the article, I thought about Kurt Sutter & all the terrible stories about his behavior (though I don't know that he was ever a predator - just an asshole) and how he just up & quit that Sons spin-off mid season. Maybe that's Whedon is so puzzled about the backlash he's getting and all his navel gazing about his mean mummy - because he thinks he had a right to do what he did because that's what other people with that kind of power do.

Given that Joss is generally believed to have had an affair with Amy Acker, you do have to wonder what sort of fetish compelled him to create Illyria:

R166 Illyria was more interesting than Fred. And it wasn't the first time he had killed a character only to bring them back.

Rumor has it that Amy was bored playing Fred and wanted something meatier, so Joss created Illyria for her.

The problem with Joss was his feminist brand. Nobody excepts good behavior out of a Michael Bay, but Joss built his whole empire on the idea that he supports women. He put himself on a feminist pedestal so he had further to fall than the other Hollywood assholes.

SMG could spill the beans on all the shit Joss pulled....but she won't 😑

Fred ruined ANGEL. But then I liked it when it was just the Angel/Cordy/Wesley dynamic.

Angel was never the same after David Greenwalt left due to a contract dispute at the end of Season 3. The last two seasons were pants.

I didn't mind Fred, but i preferred her with Gunn. They shouldn't have bothered with Wesley. And i hated Cordelia with Angel.

Illyria had alot of potential and a Hole In The World was a fantastic episode of Angel.

I think SMG still has vague hopes of some kind of Hollywood career renaissance. She can't get the rep for being a tattle-tale. Carpenter knows her career is over so she can say what she wants.

Honestly, I don't think Joss ever really got over the public rejecting Firefly.

It was his baby, his ultimate culmination of "brilliance" and it failed miserably as a TV show...then a film...then a comic book... And yet he still continues to threaten to bring it back. LOL

He tried floating that ridiculous excuse the network "sabotaged" the show by airing a few episodes out of order but that doesn't explain the failure of Firefly in other mediums.

The worst part was that he let Buffy and Angel go to shit while directing all his energy into that Waterloo.

Angel only works when he's brooding, lonely, and sad. Putting him with Cordy didn't work at all.

Personally, I liked her best with the beefcake guy from the other dimension.

I took shit from other Whedon fans back in the day because I hated Firefly. It really was like a cult, and you were supposed to worship everything Whedon did. That was the start of my disillusionment with the whole thing. Also, the last two seasons of both Angel and Buffy sucked.

Firefly was incredibly smug. They acted like they were doing The Wire or Breaking Bad. I bought the DVDs to watch (in order) and was bored to death.

I’m intrigued that so manny people care about this fuck.

[Quote] think SMG still has vague hopes of some kind of Hollywood career renaissance.

I never thought that Alyson or David would end up having the better career.

[Quote] It was his baby, his ultimate culmination of "brilliance" and it failed miserably as a TV show...then a film...then a comic book... And yet he still continues to threaten to bring it back. LOL

Still haven't seen Firefly but i liked Serenity. The show would get more criticism now just for the fact there weren't any Asian actors.

[Quote] Personally, I liked her best with the beefcake guy from the other dimension.

Groo was cute.

R172 Greenwalt also co-created the wonder short-lived Profit, starring DL fave Adrian Pasdar. You can actually see a lot of Profit in Angel. Wolfram and Hart is basically a supernatural version of Gracen & Gracen, the company from Profit.

I liked Firefly, but people aren't wrong about its fandom being like a cult. People parroting faux-folksy catchphrases mindlessly and dressing up like they lived in the Old West drove me to want nothing to do with the fans despite enjoying the material.

R115, Amy Acker did speak up to say that while her experience on Joss' shows was positive, she supported Charisma and others who were coming forward with accusations.

I'm sure it's very positive when you're sleeping with the head producer. I wonder how much she supported Charisma back in the day?

[quote]Redemption tour?! He self-immolated with that interview.

I was so sure the interview was fake because I couldn't believe he would say what he said and think it made him look better. His lack of self-awareness is astounding.

I agree that Illyria was more interesting than Fred; I just mean it's a bit weird that Joss costumed his alleged side piece as a sort of alien dominatrix.

We now know that he dated a dominatrix IRL, so perhaps the Illyria thing fits in that context.

I can’t picture Joss fucking Willow. Say it ain’t so. And then to dump her on his friend Wesley so he can get his sloppy seconds?

[quote]you were supposed to worship everything Whedon did. That was the start of my disillusionment

People will never learn, will they? They will continually get obsessed over other people, who, at the end of the day, are just people. Why? Just because they create some form of entertainment? I've always hated that kind of thing too, so I don't blame you for being disllusioned.

R188, interesting how you phrased your post. The last time I was enamored of a program the way many fans of Whedon's work, was when I first watched "The X Files." Man did I love that show. I watch it religiously and regularly.

Chris Carter promised to answer all of the questions and wrap-up the show in five seasons... yea, fool me once man.

And then JJ Abrams shows up with Lost... again I am on board with the whole thing. End of first season, everything's cool with me. The second season starts and I realize, "these guys don't know where this show/its plot is going. I. A. Out. Let others argue bout all of its various meanings, not me.

Lost was a real disappointment to me too, r189.

I think part of my thing is for a few years I was sorta adjacent to the entertainment industry through friends and I saw first hand how many of these people should not be idolised. They weren't even all awful, though many were. But also juvenile, and other times, just people, no more special than anyone else.

Mass idolisation of celebrities gives them a power I don't think hardly any of them deserve.

(Sorry, this^ is r188, by the way)

Well, I enjoyed Angel with Cordy! I thought it was a very interesting development. But I hated Cordy with Connor. I liked the storyline of Angel having a son, it raised the stakes of the storyline, but the Connor character was executed really poorly.

I could never get into Firefly. The storyline never had high enough stakes for me to get invested.

Season 4 of “Angel” was a mess, despite probably being the most engaging season. Season 5 was interesting, I think the show could have had one or two more seasons.

Season 6 of Buffy had some really bright spots and highlights, but it also tended to drag in places, and the stakes just weren’t as high for most of the season.

I like the last two seasons of Buffy a lot. They’re a bummer, but to me a lot of it worked. Both probably would have benefited from being 13-16 episodes rather than the full 22. A lot of early season seven is just biding it’s time for the big showdown at the end.

R193 I agree that season 6 would have benefited from being shorter because a lot of the ideas and themes were good but couldn't be stretched over 22 episodes without it dragging a bit. The trio was a mistake too.

Season 7 just wasn't good imo.

Was Ben trans?

But there is no redemption. All he did was piss off people even more

R195 Ben was a powerful trans woman and Giles committed literal violence against her.

Powerful as in God-like?

I didn't like Angel and Cordelia as a couple. To me, they had no chemistry. But a lot of fans rooted for them, so it just goes to show it's in the eye of the beholder.

I quite liked Firefly but felt it was over-hyped. I didn't find it anywhere near as addictive as Buffy.

I liked Firefly a lot. But I think it gets a lot of overhype due to its premature death. It had a lot of potential and was cancelled before they had the chance to run out of ideas.

Angel and Cordy shouldn’t be together. Neither should Buffy and Spike. But there were some crazy Spuffy fans who demanded it.

More "Mommy, He Was Mean to Me" stuff. Joss, write men only from now on.

A jerk who turns me on.

Joss's handling of Charisma's pregnancy was terrible, and all obvious at the time. His behavior was petty and petulant.

That said, her pregnancy DID throw a wrench in the plans for the season, and they had to scramble to rewrite the story and the second half of the season after the first half was already in the can and being aired. That had to suck.

But regardless, he showed his true colors way back then, and it was obvious then, it didn't require Charisma to come out years later with the tea... though I'm glad she did.

"Paywalled."

R5, if you can't find your way around a paywall, you really shouldn't be on the internet.

Yeah, Charisma dropped a bomb on him, but the storyline he decided on was the pits. It ruined the Cordy and Connor characters: Both had to be written off after that.

R206 oh people wanted Connor gone from the start, let's be honest

Controversial take....I actually liked season 4 of Angel.

Tje description of accidentally/kinda/not really killing a kid was just dropped in there. WTF?!

[quote]”The beginning of the internet raised me up, and the modern internet pulled me down,” Whedon said. “The perfect symmetry is not lost on me.”

And he sounds like The Newsroom-era Aaron Sorkin here.

I loved Firefly, Dollhouse and the first season of The Nevers.

However I tried to watch Buffy on Hulu last summer and thought it was really bad. I watched the entire first season and just don’t understand its popularity. Does it get better or was it one of those shows that if you didn’t watch during its original run in the nineties you aren’t going to get?

The only part of S4 of Angel I remember enjoying was when Faith came back.

Buffy doesn't start to get good until Season 2, and it peaks in Season 3, R211. It also suffers from the fact that dozens of teen supernatural shows have been modeled on it since then, so the elements that originally made it unique have been done to death.

Smallville was a complete ripoff of Buffy with monsters of the week that came from a hellhole (Kyrptonite).

[quote]Well, I enjoyed Angel with Cordy! I thought it was a very interesting development. But I hated Cordy with Connor. I liked the storyline of Angel having a son, it raised the stakes of the storyline, but the Connor character was executed really poorly.

I would have been fine with no romance with Angel and Cordy - shows over do the will they or won't they with their leads. They had a great friendship. That said, I thought they were well suited for each other personality wise and seemed to enjoy each other. If this was real life, they were better match than Angel and Buffy - who really only had the star-crossed lovers thing going. Plus early on the kind of creepy subtext of a high school girl being involved with an older man, not just as a 200 year old vampire - but he looked like he was some twenty cruising the high schools.

Fred was OK as a supporting character, but got more annoying when everyone wanted her and she became the female lead when Cordy was sidelined and then off the show. Cordy's absence was really made apparent by how much better he guest-star good bye episode was than the rest of that season. It did not help the show they replaced the great Lilah with Eve (or as Cordy said Lilah-light). I think it was because the actress was younger, but Lillah was better in all ways - including looks.

Yes - the Connor arc was bad. I was surprised how much I did not hate him when he showed up in a later episode outside that horrible arc, because I hated him before that.

Sadly, the show seemed to get back on track right at the end as it was cancelled. It would have been nice to have one more season or a short season to properly wrap things up.

[quote] Plus early on the kind of creepy subtext of a high school girl being involved with an older man, not just as a 200 year old vampire - but he looked like he was some twenty cruising the high schools.

Yeah, why was someone in their twenties getting involved with a high school girl? He should be getting with twenty-something girls or thirty-something or forty-something girls. I have nothing in common with high schoolers today. If I were hundreds of years old, I would have even less in common with them.

What is the tea on Joss's new wife?

Charisma and David are only a year apart in age, and they always seemed like a better match. Cordy was supposed to be Buffy's age but they never read like contemporaries. Cordy also had a tough, capable quality that balanced Angel's broody aggressiveness really well.

I didn't know Whedon had a new wife until I read the article. I'd bet money she's a painfully thin brunette with big eyes, though.

R218, I think Charisma being a 27 year-old playing a high schooler was effective at making Cordelia appear like alpha female while simultaneously being stupid (27 year-old still in high school).

[quote]Cordy also had a tough, capable quality that balanced Angel's broody aggressiveness really well.

As friends, I never bought them as a couple.

I wonder if Joss bullied David about his weight gain? By the later seasons Angel was a vampire lard ass.

And he looked like he aged 15 years when vampires don’t age.

Do you think Angel and Cordelia had sex? That just seems so wrong if they did.

[quote]It did not help the show they replaced the great Lilah with Eve (or as Cordy said Lilah-light). I think it was because the actress was younger, but Lillah was better in all ways - including looks.

Absolutely THIS. Eve was TERRIBLE and I loathed her. Lilah was awesome.

R223, Angel lost his soul the second time during a fake experience where he was having sex with Cordy. But it wasn’t real.

It was fake sex?

[quote]I didn't know Whedon had a new wife until I read the article. I'd bet money she's a painfully thin brunette with big eyes, though.

Not really. She is described in the article as a blonde though. She's 47. I like her art. Her pool series reminds me a bit of Hockney.

How did he meet someone so old and not an actress?

[Quote] I liked the storyline of Angel having a son, it raised the stakes of the storyline, but the Connor character was executed really poorly.

I hated Connor and of course the one time i started to warm up to him was his last appearance in season 5. I still hate Dawn, but i wonder if Joss made her such a brat to get back at Michelle.

[Quote] Season 4 of “Angel” was a mess, despite probably being the most engaging season. Season 5 was interesting, I think the show could have had one or two more seasons. Season 6 of Buffy had some really bright spots and highlights, but it also tended to drag in places, and the stakes just weren’t as high for most of the season.

I think Angel could have done with another season. But Sarah made the right call to end the show when she did.

[Quote] Smallville was a complete ripoff of Buffy with monsters of the week that came from a hellhole (Kyrptonite).

All of the WB shows tried to copy the Buffy formula. I noticed the change with Charmed and Roswell. Still can't believe Smallville lasted 10 years.

[Quote] Plus early on the kind of creepy subtext of a high school girl being involved with an older man, not just as a 200 year old vampire - but he looked like he was some twenty cruising the high schools.

I never cared about the age difference. But it is interesting to see how that gets called out alot more when it comes to shipping.

Also can't believe Smallville ran ten years. Yipes.

I kinda liked Angel at first...the small group trying to do big things. But the plots sucked. Connor was miscast, (sorry Pete!) The Cordy pregnancy was handled grotesquely and Illyria was such a strange new direction to go in. Same with them working at the law firm.

All fans wanted was to see Buffy with Angel again.

Which season of Buffy was it that begins with her having run away from her home town because she doesn't want to be a slayer anymore, but she gets roped back into things again ("What are you doing?" "I'm going through your personal files, what does it look like?"), and ends with a monster at their graduation?

That's the only season of Buffy I've ever watched and I remember really enjoying it, but I never went further than that, it was kind of enough for me.

Season 3. She runs away once she 'killed' Angel and sent him to hell.

That didn’t make sense that she would just run away and let people get killed by vampires. She put her friends’ lives in danger since they went out to hunt vampires every night in her place. But if a group of high schoolers can slay vampires every night without getting killed then what is the point of the Slayer?

[Quote] All fans wanted was to see Buffy with Angel again.

Some of them wanted to see her with Faith. Which would have been fucked up after everything Faith did to her.

[Quote] That didn’t make sense that she would just run away and let people get killed by vampires.

Did you watch season 2?

It was a shame once Buffy moved to UPN with season 6, crossovers with Angel became next to impossible.

R235 season 6 is the only one Angel doesn't appear in. Although i would have loved to see Giles and Buffy's reaction to Wesley's transformation on Angel.

[quote]Didn’t he molest or beat people or something?

No, he called a pregnant lady fat.

Charisma...oh the irony.

The whole premise of Buffy didn't make a lot of sense. There is one slayer in the world. If you're a vampire, just stay away from wherever the slayer is hanging out, and you're golden.

There should always have been multiple slayers.

He's pretty gross.

I wonder if it would have helped getting SMG to do a long stint on Angel after Buffy ended. They would have had to pay her a ton, but having her as Angel's GF again would have been a crowd pleaser. Though it might have lead to stupid storylines.

I did like that Buffy ended with girls getting "activated" and empowered - a really cool feminist concept. Joss has issues and screwed up a lot, clearly, but that was cool. And the destruction of the town and massive army from hell....those were major things to attempt on a tv show finale and they managed it well.

I think the Spike stuff was really too depressing. Fans loved him but he couldn't reasonably be with Buffy without it being fucked up. It diminished her to want him (another murderer? Come on, Buffy!) and it made him into a frustrated stalker/would-be rapist....all while the girls at home creamed their panties over him. Them ducking the house down was considered "so hot!!!" back in the day but I just found it sad and cheesy.

...and now, knowing Joss was banging the cast, cheating on his wife in the process...and still being a feminist writer...it gives everything an even bigger ick factor. Was he channeling his sexual frustrations into Spike and Zander's storylines? It seems that way. I wouldn't enjoy watching the series now.

But overall the first season had a great fun "lets spoof movie monsters!" feel to it. And SMG didn't look anorexic. It was fresh. It became so serious and grim the longer it went on.

^^ fucking the house down

He's a Bad Feminist.

I'm sure David would love to chime in about all this drama, but he has enough skeletons in his own closet to worry about backlash. It would be like when Lea Michele commented on racism and the Black guest star was like..."really bitch"? And then the floodgates opened.

I always thought Spuffy was creepy torture porn but fans were obsessed with them.

So was Buffy/Angel, when you think about it.

The original game plan was for Buffy to end up with Xander--the regular 'nice' guy. But as the series went on, the characters grew up, and Brendon developed a drinking problem, they went in other directions.

I don't think SMG had any romantic chemistry with Brendon and the Xander character was such a fucking goof ball. I can appreciate delving into Buffy's dark side as the slayer and being attracted to 'bad boys' - the very creatures she was supposed to destroy. However, Angel had a lighter 'nice' side and the Buffy in seasons 1-3 is a far cry from the shell she came to in season 6 when she was having morbid hate sex with Spike. But then again I felt seasons 6-7 were total joyless slogs and I like to pretend they don't exist.

Agreed, R247. Buffy should have ended with Season 5. What a ballsy, memorable finale that would have been.

The problem with season 6 of Buffy was it tried to get "smart" by having life be Buffys big bad, but after 5 seasons of Buffy dealing with world ending events... and Adam, did the audience really want to see her cry all the time while having anal sex with Spike in a club?

Season 6 should've been about the walls between heaven and hell weakening, causing major issues with the hellmouth due to Willow and the gang bringing Buffy back or something like that.

I always thought it would have been an interesting story arc if Dawn had begun turning back into the key during Season 6. While Buffy is whining about being on this physical plane again, Dawn is having to deal with leaving it. Would have been meaty stuff for Trachtenberg and a great way to write out a character who was no longer of any use.

I'd also have put Buffy in a shitty office drone temp job, which someone with 2 years of college would have been able to get, and really worked the metaphor that Work is Hell. All kinds of corporate monsters could have been turned into Little Bads. Finally, I'd have had Spike go searching for his soul once he realized that Buffy was alive again, in hopes of becoming worthy of her. Only instead of becoming a cool souled vamp like Angel, he's turned into a regular human again. Now he has to move out of the graveyard, find a job, find an apartment, just like any other person. Imagine Spike rooming with Xander and the odd couple comedy. Imagine Spike showing up at one of the same shitty temp jobs Buffy is dealing with. They could have hooked up in the supply closet out of sheer boredom and it would have been funny rather than sick and tragic.

When dark Willow talks about undoing Dawn at the end of season 6, it always made me curious what would happen if she had followed through. No doubt the end of the first ep of season 7 would've been Willow bringing her back as part of her redemption arc and mirroring Buffys return.

I remember reading on here way back in the day that one of Joss’s rumored affairs was with Glenn Quinn. Can anyone confirm this? It was shocking and I never forgot it but I haven’t seen it brought up since.

I thought the issue with Glenn Quinn was he would shoot up heroin between takes?

No one, even his very angry ex-wife, ever implied Joss had man-sex. Quinn died of an OD two years after he left Angel.

[Quote] If you're a vampire, just stay away from wherever the slayer is hanging out, and you're golden.

That would be difficult for the new vamps coming out of their graves. If Buffy's patrolling you're fucked.

[Quote] There should always have been multiple slayers.

Did you watch the show?

[Quote] I wonder if it would have helped getting SMG to do a long stint on Angel after Buffy ended. They would have had to pay her a ton, but having her as Angel's GF again would have been a crowd pleaser. Though it might have lead to stupid storylines.

They did try to get Sarah for an episode in season 5 but she was busy filming The Grudge.

[Quote] Imagine Spike rooming with Xander and the odd couple comedy.

Well we did get a glimpse of that after Spike stopped "living" with Giles.

I mean MULTIPLE slayers, R256. Dozens of 'em, enough to keep vamps in check throughout the world. They brought that idea in at the end, but for most of the series there was one or maybe two.

R257 but they also showed how that's a bad idea on Angel.

How was it a bad idea?

R259 not every girl can handle being a Slayer e.g mental illness. The one on Angel cut Spike's hands off.

So? Get ones without mental illness.

R261

Am I right that I read somewhere Xander was initially meant to be gay and then this was changed?

The type of smirky, bantering dialogue that Wheedon writes has always repulsed me. For some reason it strikes a lot of people as "intelligent" but it is truly obnoxious. And now it is everywhere in pop culture. Smh.

R264

It's the combination of banter with overly cutesie fake words sprinkled throughout that gets me. Like saying "stabby" just for the sake of it.

Its as if the characters were saying "I am smarter than you, but let me get down to your level for a second with this silly word."

And they never seemed like happy characters so the attitude that came from their line deliveries tarnished it too.

I imagine Whedon's Redemption Tour sung to the tune of Rainbow Tour.

He was buried by this article. He’s never coming back.

[quote] He was buried by this article. He’s never coming back.

“So are you here to hear the truth?” asks Depp as Russell brings him a glass of vintage red wine. “It’s full of betrayal.”

I'm just amazed at how much emotion people have invested in these shitty TV shows.

I just don't understand why the personality of a show runner and the career/onset satisfaction of the writers/actors on that show matters even a little bit.

Agreed R269. You think people would've learned by now not to idolise others.

I thought it was Amber Benson, he seemed very cozy with her when they were filming the musical. Eliza Dushku seems too smart to sleep with him. Benson seems very vulnerable.

These articles annoy me. They make it seem like everyone just moves to LA, writes a screenplay, and gets famous. How did he hustle that?

Had he made out with an actress on the floor of someone’s office? “That seems false. I don’t understand that story even a little bit.” He removed his glasses and rubbed his face. “I should run to the loo.” When he came back, he said the story didn’t make sense to him because he “lived in terror” of his affairs being discovered.

What a lying sack of weasel.

America has been divided into two groups --

the fucking idiots who think everything on TV is true (i.e. Trumpers who saw 'The Apprentice' and think he's really a super-smart tycoon)

and the fucking idiots who think that they're entertainment industry players because they obsessively follow gossip on Twitter or whatever.

A healthy does of skeptical apathy would help a lot of people.

[quote] These articles annoy me. They make it seem like everyone just moves to LA, writes a screenplay, and gets famous. How did he hustle that?

His first screenplay was Toy Story and he parlayed the success of that into a career.

He's a third-generation screenwriter. He was born on third base, though I do think he's talented.

[quote]I mean MULTIPLE slayers, [R256]. Dozens of 'em, enough to keep vamps in check throughout the world. They brought that idea in at the end, but for most of the series there was one or maybe two.

R257, The Slayer was sent to the worst hellmouth to patrol. The Potentials being trained to be Slayers and the Watcher's Council handled everything else. The Watcher's council had their own network of fighters who weren't slayers. Wesley's (Angel) father lead a group of them to hunt down Spike in the 60s.

Kendra is a perfect example of a typical Slayer. She was trained since she was a child. She was called and became THE Slayer. She was sent to deal with a threat at Buffy's location. Other threats were being dealt with worldwide, she just needed to be at the most important one. Before she became the Slayer she was already out hunting

If anyone can hunt vampires then what’s the point of a slayer? Even Cordelia and Willow were patrolling graveyards and skating vamps.

Whedon sounds like a scamp.

Did they ever explain why Buffy didn't get the early training of most slayers?

R280 you could read earlier threads or google this very very well-documented show. Just a thought.

Oh fuck off, R281. If you can't answer a simple question, to blockville for you.

R282 oh poor me. You ask questions that are well covered online. God forbid I call you lazy.

R280, there are too many potentials to watch and it's not easy to guess who is one. They did find Kendra (as a child) and Faith (a little older because they moved a lot) before they were called. Merrick (same as the movie) only found Buffy after she was and even then he chose to watch her rather than approach her directly for a while.

I loved Joss when I was younger, I hate him now. I will give him credit for doing a pretty good job at creating a history in his universes.

Eliza always seemed the type to tease Joss, knowing she would get employment if she teased but never gave out. It's crazy that a few years ago Scar Jo was proclaiming she would only commit to a Black Widow movie if Joss was involved, bet those feelings faded pretty quickly after 2015.

The Buffy Movie (different cast, but still canon-ish) explains why she was trained so late. It took her watcher forever to find her because she was such a vally-girl ditz, he didn't believe it was her.

But Buffy is not a Valley Girl ditz. Not the TV version.

R287, even in the TV version, there are flashbacks to her before first watcher Merrick located her and she’s very much a Valley Girl ditz. The whole arc of the movie and to a lesser extent the TV series is her shifting her focus from shallow things to accepting the responsibility of being a slayer. It’s an essential part of the character’s development.

How could Joss write the movie and have it turn out so bad? But then the same concept in a TV show is so good? Is the movie worth watching? Does it have Joss’s signature dialogue?

Ahem...R289

Was it "rape rape" like Whoopie liked?

God, what a miserable asshole you are, R290. Hope you’re not the same miserable asshole at R281.

I'd rather be a "miserable asshole" than a lazy cunt. It's not as though you're asking difficult or obscure information. You're asking stuff that has been discussed by the people involved and the fans SINCE THE SHOW WAS ON AIR. You might as well be asking "how many seasons were there? What network was it on?"

R270 he pretty much started the trend of showrunners being adored. I can't think of an earlier example offhand.

Well, what network was it on? I could never get a straight answer. People always tell me different things.

R293 doesn’t know what a message board is.

R296 wants to be spoon-fed very basic, very public information

I'll take People Who Look Like Lesbians for $100.

[Quote] I'm just amazed at how much emotion people have invested in these shitty TV shows.

The shows weren't shitty.

[Quote] It's crazy that a few years ago Scar Jo was proclaiming she would only commit to a Black Widow movie if Joss was involved, bet those feelings faded pretty quickly after 2015.

She mentioned Joss in an interview pretty recently and it was positive. ScarJo is like teflon, she's never getting cancelled.

[quote] [R296] wants to be spoon-fed very basic, very public information

What is public information, cunt? I was asking opinions, not Wikipedia facts. I already know the Buffy movie got horrible reviews and was a flop with audiences so I don’t need to Google it. I was asking if the Buffy fans here liked it and think it’s worth watching and what they think went wrong.

[quote][quote]Eliza always seemed the type to tease Joss, knowing she would get employment if she teased but never gave out

Eliza is no longer a Mormon but she is still very "mormony." She still goes to church sometimes and has pretty high morals. Joss would know never to cross her. She would never put up with any of his shit.

[quote]How could Joss write the movie and have it turn out so bad?

Because he was brand new and had no control over it so the people who made it did what they wanted with it.

[quote]But then the same concept in a TV show is so good?

Because he was in charge of all of it so he had control to make it the way he wanted.

[quote]Is the movie worth watching? Does it have Joss’s signature dialogue?

How about I'll say it was enough of a cult classic to warrant people coming back to the writer years later to ask him if he wanted to make a TV show that would reflect his own vision for what the film was meant to be.

[quote]But Buffy is not a Valley Girl ditz. Not the TV version.

In the movie, as stated, she is but the movie is not canon.

We only know from the show that she moved to Sunnydale, things were crazy at her last school, she's already the Slayer, Merrick was her first watcher who died and she's there to meet her new one Giles.

It's implied that the reason she initially is invited to hang out with Cordelia is because she was once like her but no longer is. We don't really know though because the movie doesn't count.

Shakespeare knew what he was doing when he only cast men in his plays.

[Quote] Joss would know never to cross her. She would never put up with any of his shit.

Eliza was only 17 when she first appeared on Buffy. I can absolutely picture Joss manipulating her.

Team Riley.

[quote]Eliza was only 17 when she first appeared on Buffy. I can absolutely picture Joss manipulating her.

Eliza has never been quiet about what she says happened to her on the set of True Lies. As a matter of fact, when she said she was molested on the set of True Lies at the age of 12 she did immediately tell people including her handler, brothers and adult friends on set. She talked about it publicly later. Then of course, she didn't keep quiet about the Bull incidents.

If Joss had of done something to her directly. She would have said something a long time ago. If Joss had of tried something back then, there's no reason to think she wouldn't have called him out like she had done to someone when she was even younger.

Sorry, sweetie.

The first few episodes of the Buffy TV show referenced events in the Buffy Movie.

The Buffy Movie is only partially 'canon'... some of it is ignored, like "cramps" being a Slayer power to know when vampires are near.

Joss lost control of the movie. It was significantly rewritten and he didn't direct. He wanted to do the show to actually bring HIS vision to the (small) screen, rather than living with the mess that the suits made of the movie.

Is the movie worth watching? Yeah, sorta. It's kinda fun. Paul Rubins had his "redemption" role as a vampire, and had just one amazingly hilarious death scene in it (stay for the mid-credits scene).

Weird how Kristy Swanson grew up to be a vile trumpster moron.

I don't think Joss molested Eliza: She's enthusiastically worked with him too often for that. I do think it's possible she was one of his paramours, as she has that look he likes: big-eyed, brunette, and skinny.

I remember reading an interview once where Joss said he played out some of the transformation of superficial Valley Girl to heroine that he wanted to do in the movie through Cordelia.

I watched the first season a few years ago and it really stuck out how Cordeila was almost a different character. She was not connected to the others at all and often would have one or two lines in passing during an episode where she was just pure bitch. Finally, the penultimate episode featured her and showed that there might be more there, and she really was not happy with her group of sycophants. In the finale she was much more integrated with the group and personality was much more inline with how it would be the next two years. I wonder what his plan was for her - if he always was going to incorporate her into the group and just waited until the end of the season, or if he saw her performance or was getting audience feedback and decided to make her part bigger and more important.

I've always been curious about the what if Angel failed scenario, Joss supposedly told Charisma if Angel failed during season 1 she would be brought back to Buffy. But how would that work with Spike taking her place as the one who cuts through the cute bullshit and Anya as Xanders girlfriend. Would they have had her continue to use her abilities to aid Buffy? Would she be able to foresee the arrival of Dawn?

It was David Greenwalt who loved Charisma and the Cordelia character, and he protected her as long as he was with the series. Once he left due to a contract suit, Joss took back over at Angel and the knives came out.

Cordelia and Anya would have been fun together, R310! They would have loathed each other.

I totally believe that Eliza willingly slept with Joss. He can probably back it up, too, which is why she's kept quiet. It was a consensual affair, not a molestation/coercion situation.

No one has accused him of non-consensual sex. The only thing that comes close is the vague "not allowed around Michelle" story which she has refused to clarify. I'm assuming he either yelled at her or said something inappropriate.

R314 Not sure if this is true, but I heard that her parents had a rule that no adult male be alone around her, it wasn't just specific to Whedon. .

R310 I'm curious as to why Nicholas wanted to move to Angel. Especially now that we know David doesn't like him. I guess it would be similar to what we got with Spike and Angel in the final season. A whole lot of snark.

R312 sometimes i forget that they did interact and Anya is the one who granted Cornelia's wish.

R315 good on her parents.

[quote]It was David Greenwalt who loved Charisma and the Cordelia character, and he protected her as long as he was with the series. Once he left due to a contract suit, Joss took back over at Angel and the knives came out.

There's a really great video where Charisma talks about her final episode of Angel and what happened between her and Joss. From what I recall, she mentioned at one point, she thought the two had buried the hatchet after the show was over but he was still cold towards her.

[quote]He can probably back it up, too, which is why she's kept quiet.

I don't know why some people are so hell bent on imagining that Joss had a thing with Eliza Dushku. There's no reason to think he wouldn't have treated her the same was he did Sarah Michelle Gellar. Both were established (young) actresses before Buffy.

And she hasn't "kept quiet." She, like Sarah, spoke up in support of Charisma Carpenter even if nothing happened to them.

[quote] sometimes i forget that they did interact and Anya is the one who granted Cornelia's wish.

Oh yeah, I forgot that. Still, it would have been fun to see them both part of the gang long-term.

[quote]I don't know why some people are so hell bent on imagining that Joss had a thing with Eliza Dushku.

I don't know why some people (YOU) are so hellbent on refusing to consider the possibility that she fucked him. She loves those rich old guys with power. Look at her current ancient husband.

I thought that was Thanos at R317.

She may have fucked him, but she certainly wasn't abused. She was the one who went to him when she had a deal with Fox for a new series.

[quote]It's crazy that a few years ago Scar Jo was proclaiming she would only commit to a Black Widow movie if Joss was involved, bet those feelings faded pretty quickly after 2015.

More likely in 2014 once work began on Age of Ultron when she had to deliver lines implying that being infertile made her character a monster and had Mark Ruffalo faceplanting in her cleavage.

Joss is the worst, but I always found the fake outrage around Black Widow’s “monster” line to be so tedious. She wasn’t calling herself a monster because she was infertile, she was calling herself a monster because of the lengths she had to go through to become an assaisan; the fact that she was raised to be a killer and had her fertility stripped away because having children would have been a distraction to her “purpose”, which is kill.

People should have been pissed about Bruce falling face first into her boobs... he also did the same thing with Wonder Woman and Flash

The boob thing in Age of Ultron, while hardly clever, at least had the subtext of Bruce being very in control of his feelings in that moment. The Justice League version was just a bad teen movie moment.

Joss Whedon speaks very rapidly, narcissists often do, I've noticed.