Why was Rue McClanahan THIRD in the credits for Golden Girls?

Because Bea Arthur and Betty White were both household names and she wasn’t, but was an established actress with many credits.

OP, I was up all night worrying about this too!

OMFG. You GG fanatics are real freaks.

Beatrice Arthur had been the lead of her own successful series. Betty and Rue had really only been supporting players. Betty did have a couple of her own shows, but they flopped. And Rue was not as well known as Betty when the show started.

Bea Arthur was annoyed when Betty was the first one to get an Emmy, for all these reasons. You can see it in her face when they announce Betty's name.

Betty already had Emmys to her name. And being a supporting player doesn’t change that she was a household name.

What was the episode Betty won for? The one where the house got robbed?

Because Bea and Betty were ruthless bitches. OP.

Google is your friend r6.

Why did Estelle get the 'and' credit? Nobody except for a few NY theater queens knew who the hell she was. Hypothetical: If Charles Levin had remained with the show, would he have gotten the 'and' credit? Would he have gone before Rue?

Rue was just thrilled the series got made.

She begged Bea to do it.

I never got my Estelle Getty was the "and" credit. She was the least recognizable, but just won (or was nominated for) a Tony I think.

I never understood why it wasn't alphabetical. Bea Arthur, Estelle Getty, Rue McClanahan, and Betty White in The Golden Girls.

She’s “and” because she’s the final star. It wasn’t an ensemble piece of all A-Listers. She was the last name because she was the least recognized and the only full time supporting cast member.

Sophia was the Urkel.

Everyone knew it from the get-go.

Bea was the essential actress for the show and accordingly got top billing. White was the biggest star and so came next. Estelle was definitely last and that left Rue as third.

What if Elaine Stritch had been cast as Dorothy? Surely she wouldn't have gotten top billed before Betty and Rue.

Bea saved Rue from having to do the syndicated version of Mama's Family.

I think Rue was fired from Mama's family. She was originally supposed to be Mama's antagonist, but Lyman's Naomi better fit that role, so Aunt Fran became superfluous.

Couldn’t sleep, r2?

R17 Rue was not fired. The show was original cancelled by NBC after it's second season (this was spring 1984). All of the actors contracts were null/void when the show was cancelled, and Rue went on to be cast in Golden Girls. When Mama's Family was picked up by Lorimar Television for first-run syndication in 1986, Rue was already on The Golden Girls and not available and so Aunt Fran was killed off in the first episode of the third season. You are right Aunt Fran was originally supposed to be a foil for Mama but that was changed, and Fran became a dizzy, mousy character which Rue HATED.

As for why Rue was listed third in the credits, both Bea and Betty were Emmy awarding winning (in fact, Betty actually had more Emmy's than Bea) actresses who had headlined their own shows (though Betty was better known for her ensemble work). Rue had a career as a supporting actress and no Emmy wins or nominations when Golden Girls started. In her book, Rue mentioned that Bea was paid the most, with Betty making slightly less, and Rue and Estelle making about the same. During the third season, Rue re-negotiated her contract as was paid the same as Betty White until the sixth season. In season 7, Betty was being paid the same as Bea.

[quote] after it's second season

Oh, dear.

[quote] (in fact, Betty actually had more Emmy's than Bea)

Oh, dear!

[quote]I never understood why it wasn't alphabetical. Bea Arthur, Estelle Getty, Rue McClanahan, and Betty White in The Golden Girls.

This billing actually would've made a lot of sense, though I would switch Estelle's and Rue's places only because of the two, Rue was more well known.

It's shitty to oh dear people over apostrophes. Often autocorrect inserts them and you don't realize it.

[quote]Hypothetical: If Charles Levin had remained with the show, would he have gotten the 'and' credit? Would he have gone before Rue?

I think if Levin had remained with the show, he would've received last billing before the person in the "and" position at the end (presumably Estelle). It's also possible they would have left him out of the opening credits altogether and stamped "Also starring Charles Levin" at the fade-in of each episode each week (though my guess would be the former, not the latter).

My dear friends, if I had become a regular, where would I have been slotted in the opening credits. Possibly "and also starring..." after Astrid Getty.

Because she wasn't tall enough.

The Golden Girls are cancelled… again!

r6, Betty won for "In a Bed of Rose's." It was a perfect submission, entirely focused on her character where the others had little to do and where she got to play a wide range of emotions. Bea submitted poorly ("The Operation"); Rue did too ("The Way We Met"--too much of an ensemble piece not letting her stand out), but she didn't really have a great episode in Season 1 to submit. Betty winning was pretty obvious.

Sorry--Bea's tape was "The Triangle" (Dorothy's boyfriend comes on to Blanche; Dorothy doesn't believe her; Rose is caught in the middle), but that's still a poor submission. It's actually a better one for both Betty and Rue than for Bea.

r15 I gotta agree with r14 on this

and further elaborate that Dorothy was likely always going to have the more meaty plots, Rose was traditional sitcom fodder, Blanche was window dressing and Sophia was foil.

It was logical the way it was.

What would the credits have looked like if Debbie Reynolds had joined in season 7, which was Plan B if Bea had decided not to stay? I'm guessing Betty first, then Rue, then Estelle, and then an 'and also starring Debbie Reynolds...' or 'with/and Debbie Reynolds as xx' after Estelle. Including Debbie's character's name would have elevated her a bit from the others without compromising Betty's seniority.

According to Leslie Jordan, Rue lost all her Golden Girls money in the Bernie Madoff scandal and was broke. Meanwhile, Betty White left an estate worth almost $100 million.

Betty got $3 million a year in GG residuals. Didn't Rue get the same amount? If so, then how did she die broke?

r32 maybe for the first season she was introduced... but I'm guessing she would have gotten second or third by the next until the move to the spinoff. Where in all likelihood, they would have developed a postcards from the edge character for her to play out that would have taken over the show. And we would have had a charmed like battle for top billing.

What does it matter? They're all dead now. It's all totally mute.

Credit is usually addressed in the contract and is not necessarily based on actual science, merit or logic. It is a purely negotiated thing and often fought over by the credited performers. There are many permutations of listings and you might actually see a particularly big star listed last with a separator of some sort the the header "and Special Guest Star" or just a pause and "AND" to set them apart. [See Barbara Stanwyck in Big Valley]. It is all quite a lot of elbowing.

[quote]It's all totally mute.

Oh, dear.

We could ask her if she was hurt by this.

For the film version, my first contractual demand (after deciding which role I want, of course) will be to have sole top billing.

Bitch always acted like Lady Macbeth.

Wasn't Rue married like 6 times? Unless she had pre-nups, she probably lost a bundle there too.

[quote] It's shitty to oh dear people over apostrophes. Often autocorrect inserts them and you don't realize it.

Oh, it’s all part of the experience of DL. Don’t take it too seriously.

R28, which season 1 episode do you think Bea should have submitted? My choice for her would've been episode #2 when Stan first showed up for their daughter's wedding.

R43 Heart Attack. She was great in that and had some lines that truly resonated with anyone who has ever experienced the loss of a parent.

R3, I think you meant to say Golden Girl FUNatics!

Now I'll go get my famous cheeseball. You just stay right there there and get comfortable, we have so much to talk about!

Good choice, r44.

Definitely one of her best Season One episodes.

[quote] What if Elaine Stritch had been cast as Dorothy?

If the role had been explicitly written as “an Elaine Stritch type”, maybe.

It would have been perfect if it was literally AND Betty White, R21

How come Bea never got her BFF Angie Lansbury to do a guest spot? How would Angie have been credited in the closing credits? "SPECIAL GUEST STAR ANGELA LANSBURY" or "SPECIAL APPEARANCE BY ANGELA LANSBURY"?

In the old days, people would say that Bea Arthur’s penis should have gotten the AND credit.

All of these comments about Bea’s penis are getting ridiculous.

I mean, it really wasn’t that big to garner all this attention.

R43, Yep, "Guess Who's Coming to the Wedding" should have been her submission. It's entirely Dorothy's episode; Blanche and Rose don't have a subplot or anything at all to do really. She has a wide-range of emotions, is completely sympathetic (which she isn't in "The Triangle"), gets to be funny, has the big dramatic monologue at the end and gets the final punchline. It's the closest she had to what "In a Bed of Rose's" was for Betty.

("The Heart Attack" is too much of an ensemble piece to make a good submission. Betty has that emotional monologue about Charlie dying; when you have your castmates in the same category the last thing you wanted was for your tape to make them look good, basically giving them a second submission tape.)

Rue should have submitted the pilot episode. It's about her failed wedding and she also shows a decent range of emotions. The truth is, Season 1 was very Betty heavy in the A plots. She was likely to get it no matter what.

I'm laughing at its Blanche's house.

What a silly question "Why did the more famous actors get top billing over the less famous ones?!"

Going back to credits, was "Cagney & Lacey" the first show to switch up the credits (one week Sharon was first, the next week Tyne was first).

I honestly never noticed that. I’ll have to look closer next time I watch that.

R35,,the word that would have kept you from getting “oh, deared” is moot. Not mute.

White deserved an Emmy for the episode she played the dual roles of Rose and Kim Fung-Toi.

r53, the thing about the pilot is that it's about Blanche, but she has the least screen time and none of it is seen from her point of view. It's almost entirely long scenes of Dorothy and Rose talking about her and the effect her choices will have on them while she pops in and out every once in a while. She feels the least like a lead character of the three. (If anything, the credits billing fits with the pilot. It does feel like Dorothy is the main character, Rose is her sidekick, and Blanche is there too.)

The pilot seemed more like an ensemble than any subsequent season 1 episodes, except maybe for Sophia's heart attack. I agree with whoever posted that Bea's strongest performance was in Guess Who's Coming to the Wedding. She was also terrific in the episode where she's sleeping with the married teacher, Glenn. The writing for both episodes was excellent too.

R47 Elaine was very open how she fucked up her audition and Susan Harris was not pleased how Elaine changed the lines.

OP Please. Rue was almost a footnote at the time.

[quote] Elaine was very open how she fucked up her audition and Susan Harris was not pleased how Elaine changed the lines.

Stritch had a tendency to embellish. I believe her audition was a courtesy audition and they never seriously considered her. Stritch was known as an alcoholic and there were other actresses who could play the role. Harris wrote the role with Bea Arthur in mind and I imagine she was determined to get her to play it.

I think they went in alphabetical order.

I suppose you antique residents of Shady Pines, or something similar, are terribly unsettled pondering this question. Have another cup of vanilla pudding, take a nap, and, hopefully, the answer will come to you in your dreams.

I don’t think Stritch would have been ethnic enough for Dorothy, even if all the Petrillos and Zbornaks (save for Brenda Vaccaro’s Big Sally) felt so obviously Jewish that it seemed like they had just wandered in from a production of Brighton Beach Memories.

One thing I’ve noticed - most of Betty’s pre- GG talk show appearances, Carson, Rivers/Carson, etc, was that she was usually the second (or sometimes the last) guest. She was a ubiquitous but not quite A list television star at that time. The billing order made total sense.

[quote]I think they went in alphabetical order.

JFC.

R33 I can't remember where I read this (it may have been in one of Jim Colucci's books) but apparently both Bea and Betty had profit share deals in place for the syndication rights of GGs but Rue and Estelle apparently didn't. This deal was supposedly the only reason Bea came back for the 7th season.

How many books did he write? I know and bought one of them, are there others?

Please say there are others on GG.

R70 He's written two: The Q Guide to the Golden Girls and Golden Girls Forever. The latter is the better book, but the Q Guide was written before any of the ladies died and has some interviews with them that I don't think are in Forever.

Thanks!

I got mine, bitches! Had to ditch the drag queen named Arthur, but I got it! Top billing!

R73 I may be a drag queen but I never had to resort to doing Love Boat episodes.

Bea and Betty were both household names and TV stars when Golden Girls started. Rue had been a supporting/ensemble player up to that point (and really continued to be so for the rest of her career). That being said, I actually think Rue was the best actress on the show. Dorothy was really just a lower-key, less neurotic version of Maude and while Betty was great a Rose, Sue Ann Nivens was a better part of Betty as an actress.

Rue's character tried to murder Pat Randolph on Another World. She was very well known for that to us soap fans.

[quote] while Betty was great a Rose, Sue Ann Nivens was a better part of Betty as an actress.

This is true. That scene where she shuts the oven door with her knee is comedy gold.

LINE!

Man, for years and years the films of the old MTM show were so faded and damaged. So glad they restored them.

Now Mary's awful eye bags in season 6 are starker than ever.