Inside Greta Garbo's Secret Life in New York City

I loved reading about, and seeing pix her apartment at the Campanile.

why did she do it? what was she hiding from?

Customers!

[quote]what was she hiding from?

That voracious carpet muncher Joan Crawford lurking uptown in the Imperial House.

Sad that we will never have anymore Garbos or Howard Hughes. Glamourous and mysterious people. Famous for being elusive. Hiding in the shadows not grabbing the spotlight and pointing it at their genitals. I had to ask my mum what Jackie O sounded like because I had never seen her interviewed and was too young during the Kennedy years to hear her speak. 21st century is all about 5 min of fame based on showing off your anal warts or shooting up a classroom.

Madonna is pretty mysterious. Nobody knows what the hell she is thinking.

Garbo was hiding from being outed as a lesbian certainly, but there must have been more at play. Perhaps she was a rather typical brooding Swede. I've known many Swedish guys like this.

I actually envy her life. She was fascinated with people but didn't want close contact with most of them. Financially well-off; a cool apartment; and mostly anonymous in New York... sounds okay with me.

Any truth to the rumors she went into seclusion because she couldn't handle the world seeing her age? She hid to protect the image of her perfect youthful beauty captured in the movies?

Her apartment was uber chic.

They made her screen test in 1949 when she was considering a return (Not comeback, I hate that word), r9. And then...they said no. And that was it.

Capucine said she invited Garbo to a party in Cap d'ail while Garbo was also staying in the area on vacation. G didn't want to go, but C convinced her so G arrived in an old pair of trousers and a sweater while all the other female guests were in gowns and jewels G didn't seem to give a flip about convention.

Garbo did that screen test in anticipation of making a film, but the film couldn't get backing. It was the first time that the name "Greta Garbo" couldn't get a film financed, and that really shook her. She never attempted to act again.

R13 and R11 Did that film not get backing because of her age?

R6 "Madonna is pretty mysterious. Nobody knows what the hell she is thinking."

Not if you know the difference between an enigma and a void.

She looks fabulous in the screen test. Pity.

In Switzerland in the 1970s. She was often caught in pix during her annual vacation there.

Another. 1971

R9. Rubbish. She never hid. She went about her business in NYC dressed perfectly normally. She went walking around in broad daylight with friends to shops, grocery, museums,art galleries.She did not want a camera stuck in her face but she was not Norma Desmond at all. It was like sighting a rare bird when you recognized her. Even Jackie O ( a rare bird herself) was excited when she saw Garbo on the streets.

Went to an AMPAS retrospective on Garbo. Gore Vidal was on the panel and he told us that when Garbo travelled she went by the alias Harriett Brown. Everyone was expected to address her as Mrs Brown. Vidal was staying at the same hotel and over drinks he finally told her:

Vidal : This is ridiculous! We all know you! I refuse to call you Mrs Brown!

Garbo: Ok you can call me Harriett.

I wouldn’t call the r11 footage a screen test, exactly. It’s more of a camera test to see how the lighting, makeup and photography look.

She already had the part. She wasn’t replaced by another performer. The financing for the film simply fell through.

R13, first time the name Garbo could not get a film financed? This is presentism.

That is not how it worked back then. Garbo was a contract player. This was the first time Garbo since she became a star that financing was necessary. If anything discouraged her from trying to act again it was not the lack of financing but rather her awareness that the work was less stable without a studio behind her.

She could easily have returned to MGM or any other studio. But independent production was much shakier at that time.

So...animated.

Near the end.

Of course she hid. She hid from public life. No films, no interviews, alias when she traveled. She was hiding in plain sight. She even ran from Liv Ullman.

r22 it was an independent production and the name Greta Garbo couldn't get enough financial backing. This has been noted in biographies and documentaries. She hadn't been on screen in years and she was significantly older, the finance people didn't know if she was still bankable.

Are you familiar with the script? Perhaps it was decided she was too old for the part. I can understand this, but with the right role in a decent film I would think she would have packed theatres

Hottest lesbian ever!

Liv has that effect on people, r25.

One of the last photos. Obviously she was not wearing a ski mask.

Father Time is a bastard.

Garbo with her niece who inherited G's entire estate.

R25 You're obviously Gen-Z . It's called A PRIVATE LIFE. Google it.

Smokin'!

Who wouldn't run away screaming from Liv Ullman?

I tend to think that comeback film couldn't get financing because no one was interested in the unfamiliar title.

"hiding" with Onassis at Maxims.

Did she go to the theater?

[quote] Madonna is pretty mysterious. Nobody knows what the hell she is thinking.

She's thinking "How can I promote myself? What outrageous thing I can do next to get attention?" That's what she's thinking. And you think a woman who compulsively flashes her tits and ass is "mysterious?" Nothing mysterious about THAT.

'hiding" her bröst

r39 is that sanctimonious cunt teacher we all had in school.

What was her personality like? In other individuals' memoirs they reference her in mysterious ways as well. She breezes from room to room.

She hit me in the head with a fondue pot.

After she died, when they were cleaning out her apartment they found dozens of troll dolls hidden under the sofas.

[quote] Any truth to the rumors she went into seclusion because she couldn't handle the world seeing her age? She hid to protect the image of her perfect youthful beauty captured in the movies?

She never "went into seclusion." She was frequently seen out and about, looking in shops, taking her walks. She just didn't make movies anymore, was not involved in any type of celebrity behavior anymore. She never had any plastic surgery. She aged gracefully. It wasn't like she was like Marlene Dietrich, who DID hole up in her apartment, no wishing anyone to see her as she was: an old woman. A documentary was made about her life, a good one by Maximilian Schell; she refused to be filmed for it. Only her voice is heard. All the film footage is of her as a young woman.

R41 is a moronic Madge fangurl.

R41

"Sad that we will never have anymore Garbos or Howard Hughes. Glamourous and mysterious people"

Hughes was a nut and an asshole. But I guess DL will never stop romanticizing the past, or pretending that stupid and tacky people never existed until 10 seconds ago

I remember when herwikipedia page was vandalized! Some hilarious queen went to a lot of work : 0

-----------------

Garbo was born ''Maisie Louise Jackson'' in Orrington, Vermont, the youngest of three children of Carl Alfred Jackson (1871–1920) and Anna Cotter (1872–1944). Garbo's older brother and sister were Bob (1898–1967) and Marie (1903–1926). The family lived in a small house on Elm St. in Stanton for two years after her birth before moving to Orrington. She stated in the book 'Garbo On Garbo' that her relationship with her mother was not strained, but she didn't like the local birds.

== Becoming an actress ==

When Maisie was 14 years old, her father, to whom she was extremely close, died. She was forced to leave school and go to work. Her first job was as a soap-lather girl in a barbershop. One day a young man by the name of Harry Berg, son of the founder of PUB (Jersey City department store) entered the barbershop for a shave and Brazilian. He eventually offered her a job as a clerk.

From 1922 to 1924, Maisie studied at the prestigious Royal Dramatic Community College in Stockton. While there, she met director Ben Stiller who worked as a teacher. He trained her in cinema acting technique, gave her the stage name 'Greta Garbo', took her to Europe and cast her in a major role in the silent film 'Gosta Makes Pasta' (aka "Gosta Berling's Twirling' and 'The Story of Gosta's Pasta') in 1924, a dramatization of the famous novel by Nobel Prize winner Selma Lagerlöf. She starred opposite French film actor Andre La Plume, then appeared in the 1925 German film 'Die freudlose Gasse' ('I Smell Gas!!' or 'Is That Gas I Smell?') directed by G. W. Pabst and co-starring Binky Hitler.

She and Stiller were brought to Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer by Louis B. Mayer when 'Gösta' caught his attention. On viewing the film during a visit to Berlin, Mayer was impressed with Stiller's direction, but was much more taken with Garbo's comic timing and infectious glee. According to Mayer's daughter, Irene Mayer Selznick, with whom he screened the film, it was Garbo's double-jointed goat dance that impressed her father.

etc. etc.

Her commemorative stamp was fabulous.

Who cares about stamps when you can be on currency, r50?

Marlene was a complete recluse primarily because she was quite ill for some time. She couldn't walk. I don't blame her for not allowing hot piece of ass Max Schell from filimg her in old age.

There was talk in Europe that Greta whored herself to Celine de Rothchild. The two were inseparable for some time. A lot of snickering amongst the Swiss set.

What’s wrong with Liv Ullman? I don’t get the snark.

Well, I never miss a Liv Ullman musical. Perhaps Greta did!

Garbo will never be forgotten. NEVER.

R53 Ver puzay tasted leek Snus

Poor Liv. Heh heh

"Liv me alone!"

R45 Dietrich disappeared at a VERY advanced age.

Liv emoting..

Greta loved watching soap operas and game shows:

General Hospital (in the afternoon)

Wheel of Fortune

Jeopardy

The Hollywood Squares (comedian Paul Lynde was a favorite)

Matlock

She sounds a genius.

It is said that Garbo waxed lyrical about Michael Jackson in an almost girlishly adoring way.

“He is a handsome and so musical, I never miss seeing him on television if I can help it. What a star he is!”

According to Joe Lombardo, Garbo was a vocal admirer of Barbra Streisand's work as the producer, director, cowriter and star of Yentl.

“My God, I've never seen such a picture!” she commented enthusiastically. “That's the most talented woman that I've ever known or ever heard about.”

She coveted Babs.

It's interesting how undated her apartment interior seems to be. Compare that to the schlock hovel that Crawford lived in.

All Swedes have a weird 4 second delay when speaking to you. As if Death is looming behind you and only they can see him.

r65 And how did she covet, Clarice, how did she covet ?

[quote]There was talk in Europe that Greta whored herself to Celine de Rothchild.

Garbo had no need to whore herself to anyone, she was quite wealthy in her own right. Maybe she just liked Celine's pussy.

True, but Celine had more money and she knew everybody. Come on, who would fuck Celine otherwise?

Celine who ? Celine Dion ?

Celine Rothschild of the famous banking family. She was a known pussy licker.

Celine Feldman, Rose.

[quote] She sounds a genius.

Nobody ever said Garbo was a mental heavyweight. She really was a very ordinary person, except for the fact that she was a legendary movie star and had THAT FACE.

She developed a friendship with the art dealer Sam Green. They'd go on walks together and talk on the phone. They'd talk about innocuous subjects like food and cooking. One day on one of their walks they went into a sex shop. Garbo was amused. She said to him “Oh Mr. Green the sex thing. I'm glad that part of my life is over.”

.Mr. Green? She called her friend Mr. Green?

Did any of you lesbian ladies stalk Greta in NYC?

R67, is that Madonna's latest Instagram post?

Garbo remained world famous despite living a completely private life for the last 50 years of her life and not courting publicity at all. Interest never wavered, people were still fascinated. It's remarkable when you think about it.

[quote] It's remarkable when you think about it.

Yes, it's remarkable that she completely removed herself from the celebrity world, from all of it. I guess she just didn't need it. She was so unusual in that respect.

Definitely r79. When Garbo retired and became a fully private person she was still young and still a major movie star, she wasn't an aging actress with a career that was slipping. And she just walked away from all of it. That fascinated people. I believe Garbo is the only major star to ever have done that.

Miss Kay Lenz also gave it all up, R80. Fame, Fortune, Adoration. At the height of her fame and beauty.

This one too.

Grace Kelly was still very much a public figure, though.

Grace Kelly never has the stardom that Garbo had. Garbo was treated like royalty and I don't think any one ever matched that

When Garbo saw Sunset Blvd she was annoyed with Swanson's line: "There aren't any faces left. Maybe one, Garbo."

Apparently she felt it dated her as a silent film actress.

A truly genuine and enigmatic woman. A true Swede - loved cold weather, the sea. Always would take a walk while it was raining. Stoic. Favorite food - cold chicken….vodka. She played army games with trolls under her sofa. She was terrified by hers or any phone. Liked Renoir. Her apartment coloration was pale pink and light moss green.

Watch GARBO TALKS (1985).

And people wonder why I love and admire this woman. Ask me anything….there’s not a single biography I have not Ted and collected.

And people wonder why I love admire this woman

[quote] I tend to think that comeback film couldn't get financing because no one was interested in the unfamiliar title

R36 What title?

Her sister was more talented.

Her apartment was gorgeous, beautiful use of color.

Her sister Alva died at a very young age.

Cecil Beaton was gay, but did manage once to fuck with a woman. He called it “bridging the gap”. Stupid. Everyone knew he was gayer than Gay Gayerson.

It’s likely that GG was bisexual.

GG was surely bisexual, but didn't seem to have much interest in sexual activity.

Greta was a lifelong strict dieter, and one of her closest friends was the handsome nutritionist Gayelord Hauser. They were so close Garbo was reported to have romantic feelings towards him. Whether they were lovers or not, he made her feel young and girlish in a way that few others did.

The Hauser diet consisted of no processed foods at all, and plentiful servings of yogurt, bran, dried fruit, molasses, brewers yeast, and fish liver oil. At Hauser's advising, Greta also took a variety of amino acids and other dietary supplements, in the pre-70s when such things were still prohibitively expensive to most.

Yup, she loved bran cereal with coffee poured in instead of milk. They ate raw garlic. Phew!

“Rrrraw beets and cabbage”…..Garbo from NINOTCHKA.

[quote] handsome nutritionist Gayelord Hauser

I guess 'handsomeness' is in the eyes of the beholder. But he had his hooks in this woman who had none of Greta's inregrity

Didn’t Greta have a feud with Valentina? This woman lived in the Companile and had an open affair with her husband?

George Schlee???

Garbo was into healthy eating and exercise, but she never stopped smoking. She smoked to the end.

She had sexual relationships with her mentor Mauritz Stiller,John Gilbert,Rouben Mamoulian,Leopold Stokowski, Aristotle Onassis. Plus all the ladies. She was obviously bisexual. Being Swede no one was surprised.

Here's more of her camera tests for the unmade film in this documentary from 4.24.

In the photo with Onassis in the linked article, the woman they say is Garbo looks more like Audrey Hepburn.

R63, I always kind of wondered about that rumor, among others. It seemed like the Jackson PR machine was very intent on making it look like Jackson was adored by Old Hollywood. Not that he wasn't, since Katharine Hepburn and Elizabeth Taylor and others were his friends, but when he asked Hepburn to introduce him to Garbo, she said no, and that was that.

R95

No one has ever been quite sure about exact nature of relationship between George M. Schlee, and Greta Garbo. Far as Mr. and Mrs. Schlee (Valentina), and Miss Garbo gave out they were all very good friends, with Garbo also a good customer of Mrs. Schlee, and Mr. Schlee acted as financial/intimate advisor to Greta Garbo.

George Schlee died in Paris, France were he and Greta Garbo had been staying in adjoining suites at Hotel Crillon. Mrs. Schlee did not arrive in Paris until after her husband was already dead. Whether or not that trip would have happened had George Schlee not died I do not know.

I thought she was a neurotic self-hating lesbian, no?

By some accounts while George Schlee was terribly smitten with Greta Garbo, the latter may not have had exactly same romantic feelings. Greta Garbo certainly counted Mr. Schlee as a trusted friend and advisor, but things may have stopped short of lover.

What's the best Garbo biography?

Garbo was gay. Marlene was bi.

R26, again you are not getting the point. Your presentism is making you miss the bigger picture.

Yes, the film could not be financed. But you speak as if there had been previous Garbo films that were financed on her name. There were none.

You use the term "bankable." But "bankable" did not exist as a standard marker for Hollywood stars at that time. Box office numbers were the usual measure. Hepburn, Davis, Gable, etc. could not be called "bankable" because no film they were in were independently financed the way films are now. Studios approved of film productions but none of their films was independently financed. The studio as a whole was financed.

The system ran differently then.

So Garbo was walking into a situation that was different than anything she encountered since she moved to the U.S. Someone who knew Garbo once told me that the reason she turned down all of the films proposed to her over the years was that she did not like the rag-tag nature of independent producing. She liked working at a studio.

The film industry was a bit more like television now. If CBS or HBO want the film, they pay for it. CBS and HBO do not have to go out and get financing for each individual project.

That is how it was at MGM or Warners back then.

Yes, Selznick, Chaplin, et al were different in how they financed. But Garbo never worked for them.

(Bemoaning that proposed teaming of Garbo and Marylin Monroe in a film of Dorian Gray never happened.)

[quote]I always kind of wondered about that rumor, among others. It seemed like the Jackson PR machine was very intent on making it look like Jackson was adored by Old Hollywood. Not that he wasn't, since Katharine Hepburn and Elizabeth Taylor and others were his friends, but when he asked Hepburn to introduce him to Garbo, she said no, and that was that.

Garbo was meant to be a big fan of Susan Hayward, which in hindsight seems a bit silly now.

Many moons again I knew a family that owned a Swedish eatery in Manhattan. Garbo went there for breakfast all the time.

[quote]But you speak as if there had been previous Garbo films that were financed on her name. There were none.

I'm not the person you're talking to, but studio system films WERE given the green light based on the stars in the films.

Take the infamous "King's Row." It was originally set to get a big budget and have Henry Fonda star, but when that fell through, it got a lower budget and Robert Cummings. That's what people mean when they talk about a film getting "financed" based on who the stars were.

Did she come from family money? How did she retire at 35? Had she made enough money from movies to sustain her for the next 50 years?

R48 I will take an interesting elusive, eccentric, nut asshole over what qualifies as a “big name” today. Assholes are often interesting and smart. Maybe you just can’t keep up with folks like that.

I love threads such as this.

the old Hollywood studio had individual producers who worked in the factory system. I think only MGM had 3 producer units for musicals - Arthur Freed, Joe Pasternak and Jack Cummings.

R112

IIRC stories correctly Garbo wasn't like other film stars of era, she didn't throw her money away on huge houses and so forth. Rather she invested wisely by most accounts in stocks and bonds.

Besides her Manhattan apartment, Greta Garbo owned an estate on private island off coast of Sweden.

Also for R112

"Her estate was first estimated at $55 million but that figure was much inflated. It was reported that she owned many fine investment properties. Including a large portion of Rodeo Drive and other estate in Beverly Hills but that was not true. Her few commercial buildings in California had all been sold long before her death. One parcel of this went to an Arab whose wife wanted to open a dress shop.

Garbo's primary assets were in art

The bulk of which was sold in November 1990 at Sotheby's, for a total of $19 million. From the purchase prices, her art had appreciated roughly 2,000 percent. Greta probably paid less than $100,000 for nearly $20 million worth of art. Two Renoirs alone brought $11.6 million on an investment of about $35,000. Her Chase Manhattan checking and money-market accounts contained a combined balance of $640,000. She was getting annual annuities totaling $36,500 from two insurance policies.

Her personal clothing was valued at a mere $5,800. Her only other significant asset was her apartment at 450 East 52 Street, now appraised at $850,000. Her only fortune was in stocks and bonds. Her major holdings consisted of $3 million in Federal Farm Credit Bank notes. Total stocks and bonds at the time of her death: $9.861 million. The total value of Garbo's estate was: $32,042,429 and two cents.

This was filed in New York County Surrogate's Court on 21 February 1991. These totals do not include trust funds, set up during Garbo's lifetime. That were excluded from probate and from the resulting tax documents on file. The Estate declines to reveal any information concerning the beneficiaries or the amounts of those trusts. Those are believed to be considerable."

Her personal clothing was valued at a mere $5,800

Um duh, she was an old dyke

R19 and 49 got it right. She never intended to fully retire. It just worked out that way after she took a hiatus due to a poorly received film. I lived across the street from her (rather my parents did) in the River House. She as not a recluse at all. She was mostly alone but at times with a friend or companion. There was always the same Japanese photographer lurking nearby. Once I saw her bolt out into the street when he got too close. She’s fascinating because she wanted to live anonymously and privately despite enormous fame. She did it more thoroughly than other women like Mrs. O and Streisand who also did and do use their fame occasionally mostly for philanthropic publicity. Cannot wait to read the new bio.

R117, her apt had that worth at the time of her death. On todays market it is in the 6-8 million range- or more. And yes the trusts set up long ago probably ate and were sizable and while not reported as part of her estate (because they are not once trusts) really are. Trusts my parents set up in their estate planning over the decades comprised at least half if not a bit more of their wealth. Their estates at the time of their deaths filed for tax purposes were much smaller. But it really all was their wealth planned to legally evade estate tax. Same with Garbo- same with almost any wealthy family or individual who engages in good estate planning. I’ve done the exact same thing to minimize estate tax myself.

R118

You can't go by that alone. Fashion is famously hard to accurately put price tags upon. What one person won't touch with a barge pole, another will willingly pay hundreds if not thousands. Then you cannot discount value added by association with last owner. Many of Marilyn Monroe's personal wardrobe bits aren't exactly hugely collectible, but fetched $$$ at auctions.

Greta Garbo did damn sight better in retirement than Louise Brooks. At last Garbo wasn't reduced to working in shops and turning tricks to eat.

R78...I think it was her great mysteriousness that piqued peoples' interest in her...even in all those years. She was a screen legend, who retired young....and never really heard about her since. It was...."Where's Garbo?". Is she ill? Is she ok? What does she look like how?

PS, R117, keep in mind your informative and interesting post reflects a 1990 estate. Like the apartment the securities value woul be at least 4 times or more in 2021. Garbo was quite wealthy!

R124

Notice quotation marks, post was largely quoted from linked site.

Never the less, point taken.

Hello old friend! I got a little nostalgic seeing the picture below. At lunchtime I frequently cross the 51st street pedestrian crossing and walk along the tiny waterfront park, where there are benches. I remember when that underwater cable repair barge was there, fixing the cable damage caused by Sandy.

(The image is from the article linked above.)

The new bio by Robert Gottlieb, linked by the OP, is supposed to be fab!

R100

[quote]I love threads such as this.

I do too. No fraus and no Wokes! Threads like these are what DL should always be.

[quote]Did she come from family money? How did she retire at 35? Had she made enough money from movies to sustain her for the next 50 years?

From what I understand, she had excellent financial advisors who invested a lot of her money in real estate in areas of Los Angeles that would soon go through a big wave of development, like Beverly Hills. She made out quite well.

Also, Garbo never had leeching relatives, husbands or kids like so many other Hollywood stars i. e. Joan Crawford and Bette Davis. When you don't have any dependents or people bleeding you dry, you keep all your money for yourself.

[quote] She even ran from Liv Ullman.

That was because she had just seen Lost Horizon.

R130 Swedes are not spendthrifts.

Actually it was I Remember Mama. She said, 'I'll never go to another Liv Ullman musical again.'

She never said "I want to be alone." She said "I want to be left alone".

Big difference.

I want to be alone...

r129, keep politics out of this. No one mentioned politics except you, control yourself and don't start bitching about "wokes" or whatever.

R136, she wasn’t necessarily bitching about them. She was just referring to the debates over those terms. Jump off her wick already. I agree with her.

I get why there aren't any photos of her apartment, but somewhere I read that she had a kitchen in pinks and greens, with such loud pink curtains that you could see her apartment from quite a distance away.

Julien's auctioned some of her curtains off several years ago and I've always wondered if these were the shockingly pink kitchen panels.

I wouldn't call those "shockingly pink", r138, nor do they look like kitchen curtains. But who knows?

Maybe they're faded, r139? They're the same style as bedroom curtains that were also auctioned off, and there's not enough of these darker pink ones for the entire kitchen, so I'm not convinced that they're the curtains in question.

The curtains on the cover of the Sotheby's auction catalogue were awfully pink.

Vidal said to her once that if she really wanted to be left alone and not have photographers snap pictures of her she should get a sitcom as a maid of an upperclass family where she solves all their problems. She said, 'I don't think that's funny.'

r138 there are lots of photos of Greta Garbo's apartment.

But none of her kitchen, r143..unless I missed it.

I can't find any photos of the kitchen from when she lived there, either. Several of the interiors on that Architectural Digest article plus a couple more on this old thread, and that's about it.

Some more of her troll dolls. They sold for over $2000!

I have a personal rule that when people are want me to to stare because of their appearance or behavior, I always ignore them and look the opposite direction. In a way, Garbo wanted to be noticed so she could be ignored.

I'd like to think I would have granted her that privilege if I had seen her on the street. But I suspect I would have just wet myself instead.

I believe her birth name was Greta Gustaffson. Does anyone know who came up with the name Garbo? Is that a Swedish name? Was she renamed by MGM or earlier in her career in Sweden?

I sat spitting distance from Kate Hepburn at a matinee, r147. I didn't pee my pants. I might have had it been Garbo.

"In 1923, when Greta Gustafsson was a budding Swedish film star, ready to meet the masses in her first major film The Saga Of Gösta Berling. the director of the film Mauritz Stiller who also was her mentor (and lover) at this time thought that a name change would be appropriate for the release of the film.

Greta Gustafsson wasn't exactly a glamorous name as it sounded very common and was a name held by thousands of girls only in Stockholm. Early in 1923 she had allready made a small change in her last name omitting an "s" in Gustafsson. It looked slightly more international but was still not uncommon. This minor change wasn't enough for Stiller who thought of something far more exotic. He was a fan of names with alitteration like "Charlie Chaplin" so he came up with the Hungarian sounding "Gabór". Rumor has it that it was Greta's friend Mimi Pollack who then switched the letters making up "Garbo"."

Garbo's thank-you note to Jackie Kennedy for White House hospitality. Garbo's stationery with her address (likely engraved) on it.

I don't what Garbo is referencing when she remarks about "the President's "tooth" ", unless she gave Jack a blowjob while at the WH.

He put the move on her, r151 and Greta had a mean left hook.

R151, given the date, I'm surprised she didn't add:

P.S. Enjoy your trip to Dallas!

R22, R107 What is this new word you're using ?

"Presentism"

My favorite scene from her films was in Grand Hotel, when she sprinkled the grass seeds in her hair and declared "I vant to be a lawn."

R142

One wonders why no one ever took a swing at Gore Vidal, or maybe threw a drink in his face. I'm sorry but the man comes off as an insufferable bore and first class bitch.

[quote] bore

boor!

Vidal could frequently be insufferable and a first class bitch but he was rarely a bore.

My mother would see her about in NYC in the old days. Had to be late 1940s and/or early 1950s. Just on the street - of course, my mother would never bother her or intrude on her privacy.

R112 Garbo grew up poor in a 1-room apartment in a working class neighborhood of Stockholm called Södermalm. Her father Alfred died of the Spanish flu when she was 14 and her sister Alva died at age 22 when Garbo was 21. Her first job was in a barbershop at age 14.

So no, Garbo did not come from money. She really did make enough money during her career to last her the next 50 years, aided by good investments.

Norman Mailer head-butted Vidal backstage at the Dick Cavett show in 1971. Mailer was a first-class bitch too, and they patched things up many years later.

R161

I'd have paid good money to see that!

Part 1 of the Garbo documentary has footage of her walking in the street. also charles busch tells how he saw Garbo in person one day on the street - story from 3.40.

I crossed paths will her in Central Park on a dreary autumn day. I will never forget it.

R116 Sweden is full of same kind of villas. She sounds very Swedish. She saw right trough Hollywood.

A friend of mine was good friends with John Wallowitch who lived in Garbo's neighborhood. He said she was much loved by all the merchants in the neighborhood and you could catch her shopping.

My friend's grand mom lived in the same neighborhood as Garbo and apparently every Christmas, they used to perform carpet munching on each other. My friend said it wasn't a pleasant experience for his granny.

Oh you, r167. Such wit.

Katharine Hepburn's townhouse where she lived for 1000 years was just two or three blocks away from Garbo's building. They were both avid walkers, always out and about in the neighborhood. I wonder if they ever ran into each other?

I wonder if they ever scissored?

Hepburn was as old as Garbo. Kate loved Spence until the day she died. Cynthia McFadden is their love child.

Of course you do, r170...

Well then Sondheim was a neighbor too. I imagine he, Kate and Greta would get together frequently and watch Jeopardy or PBS. While Steve was pouring the vodka for Greta and himself Kate would just have tea. Greta after a few would laugh uproariously at Fawlty Towers.

Kate liked her scotch, r173.

R171 I have a classic bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.. PM me

Yawn

I thought Kate with her old Yankee discipline was a teetotaler.

Hepburn was indeed friends with Garbo. Not call and gossip every day friends. I used to see Garbo all the time in the hood (as I said up thread I lived there) and for a long time did not know who she was- my Mom told me one day standing around in a pharmacy on 1st Ave. At the time a I was like “who”? As I grew up and continued to see her all over the place I learned about her career and mysterious image which was not so mysterious to me at all! But I did notice as I said up thread the same Japanese photograph er in the 70s and early 80s was never far away.

If only Garbo had appeared as the Mystery Guest on What's My Line?

Can you just imagine?!?

[quote]She saw right trough Hollywood.

So did I!

I don't think it became a problem until her later, later years, r177. They started to water down her scotch. The thing is, nothing lessens essential tremors like alcohol and that might have been part of it.

Does anyone have an idea about when this photo could have been taken? In the photo, Garbo still has a striking figure. She looks like an ex Olympic athlete here.

I imagine that she was quite imposing when seeing her face to face with her strong body and facial features.

[quote] What's the best Garbo biography?

"Garbo" by Barry Paris. Paris also wrote a good biography of Louise Brooks. Speaking of Brooks...she claimed to have gone to some dinner party where Garbo was a guest and that Garbo "made a pass" as her. She also said she and Garbo were lovers for one night and that Garbo was "charming and tender." I don't believe Louise Brooks ever had a one night stand with Greta Garbo. Brooks, despite proclaiming herself as a "purveyor of truth ( how fucking pretentious is THAT?)", spewed a lot of bullshit. Of course she would; she was a hard core drunk. My guess is that she just wanted to be associated with Garbo and made up a story that they were lovers. Considering Garbo's sexual history (or lack of it) it's highly unlikely she ever in her life made a pass at anyone. If anybody made a pass it was probably Brooks. Or maybe Brooks got really drunk one night and went to bed with a woman who mildly looked or sounded like Garbo and she got it into her head that she had actually gone to be with The Divine One. Anyway, her claim that Garbo made a pass at her seems very unlikely. Garbo never had to make a pass; SHE was the one always sought after, by both men and women.

[quote] despite proclaiming herself as a "purveyor of truth ( how fucking pretentious is THAT?)

Half of the Datalounge eldergays claim to do that.

Look at the catfights in his catastrophe of a thread—

R182 Greta's breasts have been compared to small pears

r171 Cynthia McFadden was not the love child of Hepburn and Tracy. That old rumor has been thoroughly debunked.

Kate was not a teetotaler. She liked her drinks at the end of the day. She was also a heavy smoker who didn't quit until late in life.

Cynthia was a suck-up.

I keep picturing Mary, and well Mary! Shudder!

Cynthia McFadden is the (old woman) love child of Katherine and Spence. It may have been debunked. Ha. So was there great love affair kept secret for a quarter century! Time reveals the facts AND Miss Hepburn at last released their feelings. How beautiful. Cynthia looks just like them. ❤ She even changed her birthdate to disguise her provenance. What an amazing family.

Garbo had affairs. Yes, she was the pursued. But mostly she was a cold woman, incapable of love or commitment with anyone of either sex. She liked to flirt and have some pretty moments with her lovers, but she was equally cruel and selfish. She didn't live like a man. She existed more like an iceberg.

R151 It's nice to see that Greta was a supporter of the democrats.

Makes me like her even more.

It's lovely she knew how to write a proper thank you note. Lost art.

Poor r190 needs to be given his meds and put to bed by the nurses

Where's the tooth now?

[quote] She existed more like an iceberg.

Are you talking about Garbo or Ninotchka?

Garbo was terrible cruel. Why do old white gay fags worship mean, beautiful, women? Envy & Projection. Get back to the DSM II.

Why imagine Katherine Hepburn as a lesbian and accuse Cary Grant of being gay too?

A tiny percentage of people are homosexual. Not ALL of Hollywood!

Block and ignore r196. A perfect example of the kind of trash that infests DL.

Why would anyone listen to you R197? We see your posts.

R196 thinks Hollywood reflects American society as a whole. Somebody break her heart and tell her the truth.

[quote] Greta's breasts have been compared to small pears.

Actually, I heard it was Louise Brooks who had the pear breasts. She had a two month affair with the married Charlie Chaplin; he was 36 and she was 18. He really had a thing for teenage girls. Anyway, someone who knew Chaplin said he made this comment about Brooks: "Ah, yes...breasts like pears!" Some critic disagreed and said that her breasts were more like "raisins." I tend to agree with that. Although she wore dance costumes than rendered her practically naked on top she had just about nothing up there to show. Little powder puff titties.

R197 has hundreds and hundreds of crazy posts about John Mulaney! R197 is in love with that fuck up - but hates his wife. And all other women connected. Ha. I just scrolled though and he has so many unhinged posts about John Mulaney that my phone died. Seems it dreams that all it's crushes are gay?

The rest I won't discuss. That OLD man sure does post alot @ R197.

Carry on Gramps. The racists WILL exit this site. Soon now come.

the cold shoulder

R202 the cold shoulder

R185 the pears-like breasts

R23 the big feet

I like her enormous shanks and awkward movements and fabulous headdress in this ceremonial dance.

As a souvenir of the evening, the president spontaneously gave her one of his prize pieces of scrimshaw - a whale's tooth. “Mrs. Jah-kee” smiled. “He nevergave me a whale's tooth,” the First Lady said. Nine days later, President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas. When Kennedy's effects were cataloged and moved out of the White House, it was noted that this piece of scrimshaw was missing from the collection. It was not until 1999 that Jim Wagner of the John F. Kennedy Library read Garbo's thank-you note to Jacqueline Kennedy and the reference to the president's “tooth” caught his attention. He surmised correctly that the president had given the piece of scrimshaw to Garbo.

Here's the story about Garbo and her dinner at the White House with JFK and Jackie, right before the assassination. I wonder how many cigs Garbo and Jackie sucked down at that dinner.

Who didn't smoke cigarettes in the 1950s? The reason Garbo lost the later in life job is not because of financing - it's because she refused to meet the producers in person. She did the film test. Carefully lit and full of heavy lidded eyes and running her hands through her hair. But her mouth was already abnormally lined all around and caving in from smoking. The lines were not tiny. She was flawed beyond what lighting could fix for 2 hours. Flawed in a way that most women or men in their forties weren't. She was more than mortal. She was always a horse with a flat ass and broad shoulders - when she lost her face = game over.

Leave me a loan.

[quote] a flat ass and broad shoulders

Yes, but a marvellously masculine profile and jawline.

From R205:

[quote]n addition to President and Mrs Kennedy, there were only four others, as she revealed fourteen years later to a friend who asked about the other guests: “Well,” Garbo replied, “there was a lady (Florence Mahoney) who was instrumental in getting us there by hook or crook, a White House friend, a man who was a friend of the President (Lem Billings), and some other lady, I've forgotten, a princess or somebody (Lee Radziwill). That's all.”

Poor, horrible Lee Radziwill always gets dumped on.

People wanted to find flaws in Garbo. Her face was perfect so of course they wanted to make it seem like the perfect Garbo had flaws. Like the big feet rumors, the rumors that Garbo had huge feet. She didn't. A guy who made shoes for her said she wore a 7AA shoe. Not huge at all. Her figure was also criticized by some, but there was nothing very wrong with it at all. Very early in her career she did have some dental work to correct a protruding tooth. But Garbo had no serious flaws, much to the dismay of some.

R98. Mauritz Stiller was gayer than Gay Gayerson. More like a Svengali relationship. Berlin in the 1920s.

She's just an old dyke

R182, it's supposed to be 1970, from captions I saw online on other versions.

R194, the tooth is still owned by Garbo's family and in the past they loaned it to the JFK museum.

Last I knew, there was a legal battle among the family members for several items, including the tooth and Greta's Oscar, and no one has seen the tooth for a few years.

Considering she self-identified as male and used male pronouns for herself in private according to various bios (like Hepburn sometimes would) the "bisexual" comments are pretty laughable. But then some idiots still think Hepburn and Tracy were "a couple" so what do you know. People are just dumb.

Wonder if GG sampled JFK's other tooth? He was noted for quickies between courses.. Cleans the palate

[quote] Considering she self-identified as male and used male pronouns for herself in private according to various bios (like Hepburn sometimes would) the "bisexual" comments are pretty laughable. But then some idiots still think Hepburn and Tracy were "a couple" so what do you know. People are just dumb.

Where did she ever say she "self-identified" as male? Are you saying she was a tranny, a man trapped in a woman's body? You certainly sound very dumb. A Garbo website addresses Garbo's sexuality:

"Garbo had a habit of speaking of herself in the masculine gender. “I have been smoking since I was a small boy,” for example. Green thinks that this was not a sexual revelation but a way of removing herself from a story, turning herself into another person, especially when speaking of Hollywood- an unpleasant place where she had felt locked in. Garbo was increasingly asexual as the years went by.

Her sexuality was more repressed than developed. Garbo said to Green once , “I'm a kept woman but somebody missed a good man in me.” One close friend claims she was “strictly, exclusively lesbian.” Another friend declares with even greater conviction, “she wasn't lesbian. She wasn't anything.” She once said to Green , “Oh Mr. Green the sex thing, I'm glad that part of my life is over so long ago.”

I’m listening to the free -trial Audible version of Gottlieb’s book. Half way through and so far nothing I haven’t already known.

Blocking R136

Not Blocking R218. Because I like free speech.

Gottlieb seems to get a little snippy about the nephews fighting over the estate, r217, I'd love to hear what he says about it. Apparently Gray's sons started arguing over who got what in the estate long before she died. Tacky!

This thread is amazing.

I know nothing about Garbo other than she's sort of the first Movie Star. And she's referenced in the occasional pop song.

Just wanted to thank all of you for sharing your infinite gay wisdom. These are far and away my favorite DL threads.

Gonna find a few of her films mentioned here and give her a watch!

^ They're not easy.

Greta looks good but she has no verbal dexterity in the English language. She talks like a statue.

She’s more captivating in her real life than anything she portrayed on the screen.

[quote] "Garbo had a habit of speaking of herself in the masculine gender. “I have been smoking since I was a small boy,” for example. Green thinks that this was not a sexual revelation but a way of removing herself from a story, turning herself into another person, especially when speaking of Hollywood- an unpleasant place where she had felt locked in. Garbo was increasingly asexual as the years went by.

And Green was wrong. It has nothing to do with a "sexual revelation" but a statement regarding her gender identity which is different. His take on it is ridiculous. Examples of Garbo using male pronouns for herself, including in her letters to a past love from her youth, and more generally around her friends, are abundant.

[quote] Are you saying she was a tranny, a man trapped in a woman's body? You certainly sound very dumb.

Mind your language, bitch. I'm no "tranny" myself but I certainly can call a spade a spade without getting my panties in a knot. She identified as male. In the thirties that would make her a very lonely misfit, in 2021 it would be called dysphoria and she'd simply transition to live a happier life. It's not that complicated and it's not an insult, just a mere fact.

The world’s most beautiful human female specimen.

Last night I watched the wonderful TCM Kevin Brownlow 2005 documentary on Garbo, of which a couple of episodes are linked upthread. You can find it all on youtube.

Lots of great clips of her performances and wonderful interviews from over the years of the various great-nephews and niece discussing her as well as poignant and hilarious insights from directors George Cukor and Clarence Brown, admirers Gavin Lambert and Charles Busch and Daniel Selznick, the grandson of Louis B Mayer (who was also the son of David O Selznick), among others like confidante Sam Green and biographer Barry Paris. Worth your time if you want to know All About Garbo.

#Throatgoat

[quote] And Green was wrong.

How would you know? Green knew her for years, was a friend of hers. You weren't. He certainly knew a hell of a lot more about her than you do.

[quote] She identified as male.

How in freaking hell would YOU know? You seem to think you know exactly what was going on in Garbo's head. You don't. Garbo behaved in many eccentric ways. Her using male pronouns to describe herself was just another one of her idiosyncrasies. Boy, you really want Garbo to be transgender, don't you? But she wasn't.

Living in Manhattan, eating dinner alone in front of the TV everynight at 5:30. Sounds like 75% of DL.

Some of Garbo's line reading are perfection like in Grand Hotel when in a deep depression she is trying with great effort to get ready for another day she can't bear facing and says 'I have never been so tired in my life.' And in Camille when she is weeping and buries head in her hands knowing that her life is over and says 'I am going to make my lover hate me.' And of course in Ninotchka there is the quick cold 'There will be fewer but better Russians.'

I love this thread as much as her apartment

"Her using male pronouns to describe herself was just another one of her idiosyncrasies."

It was a just a lifelong phase ! None of that tranny shit here ! No, I refuse to ever consider that someone I respect so much as Garbo could be a tranny. NEVER ! She was just quirky like that. Many people walk this earth using opposite sex pronouns for themselves because they just feel like it. It does NOT mean they're trans. It's a... idiosyncrasy !

/s

I can't believe some gay men (though I'm inclined to believe these are fraus) are posting here about the hot, sexual, love affair between the two flaming homos Spencer Tracy and Kat Hepburn. Love child? Bitch, please.

Greta Garbo was also not bisexual. Marlene Dietrich was, as was Joan Crawford and many other women of the era, but Hepburn and Garbo were both big old dykes.

Ms. Hepburn had long affairs with Howard Hughes, Leland Hayward, John Ford and of course the great and lasting love of her life, dear Spence. This is well known and documented. Just because she was athletic and wore pants doesn't mean she was afflicted with homosexuality. That was not her lifestyle choice. Katherine Hepburn was extremely feminine and a goddess of a woman. She loved men, fully.

R234 Yes, Spencer Tracy was so gay that having a wife as a beard wasn't enough. He also got a female lover. Now, that's really gay.

If you think the great Stephen Sondheim (RIP) can be trusted, he once wrote of looking out his townhouse window across the garden he shared with Katharine Hepburn, and seeing her standing in her French doors and being lustily embraced by Spencer Tracy.

In a NY Post article it said that ,"Garbo had documented dalliances with Tallulah Bankhead, Billie Holiday and Louise Brooks, and a rumored affair with Josephine Baker. She most certainly did not! She NEVER had an affair with Bankhead or Holiday or Josephine Baker. Louise Brooks said she had a one night stand with her but Louise Brooks wasn't extremely credible. Where is all this crazy shit coming from? The new biography of her? If it's making claims like this then it's no better than a tabloid.

It HAS been documented that Tallulah Bankhead and Billie Holiday had an affair. Bankhead reportedly was so affectionate towards Billie at some club where she was performing that an observer said "The bitch is all over her!" Bankhead did not mention Holiday once in her autobiography, which offended Billie because she thought they were very good "friends." When Billie came out with HER autobiography Bankhead threatened to sue if she was mentioned in it. Billie wrote her a letter that said:

I thought I was a friend of yours. That’s why there was nothing in my book that was unfriendly to you, unkind or libelous. Because I didn’t want to drag you, I tried six times last month to talk to you on the damn phone, and tell you about the book just as a matter of courtesy. That bitch you have who impersonates you kept telling me to call back and when I did, it was the same deal until I gave up. But while I was working out of town, you didn’t mind talking to Doubleday and suggesting behind my damned back that I had flipped and/or made up those little mentions of you in my book. Baby, Cliff Allen and Billy Heywood are still around. My maid who was with me at the Strand isn’t dead either. There are plenty of others around who remember how you carried on so you almost got me fired out of the place. And if you want to get shitty, we can make it a big shitty party. We can all get funky together!

I don’t know whether you’ve got one of those damn lawyers telling you what to do or not. But I’m writing this to give you a chance to answer back quick and apologize to me and to Doubleday. Read my book over again. I understand they sent you a duplicate manuscript. There’s nothing in it to hurt you. If you think so, let’s talk about it like I wanted to last month. It’s going to press right now so there is no time for monkeying around. Straighten up and fly right, Banky! Nobody’s trying to drag you.

^ Is ALL of that a quote from the NY Post?

[quote] Her using male pronouns to describe herself was just another one of her idiosyncrasies. Boy, you really want Garbo to be transgender, don't you? But she wasn't.

Guys, this was a joke that was fairly common at the time.

Do you remember in Sunset Boulevard when Cecil B calls Norma a "young man" (or something like that). He called her that in real life. Agnes De Mille (the choreography) in her biographies wrote that her father called her his son. It was a light-hearted way to refer to girls who were a bit tomboyish.

It DID NOT MEAN that they wanted to have a mastectomy and grow a beard and live as tiny men.

She can wear clown clothes and still look interesting.

(this is from an ancient movie where MGM took a fascinating surreal play by the often-fascinating Luigi Pirandello and threw out half the plot and made it quite silly)

[quote] Is ALL of that a quote from the NY Post?

Just the part about her supposedly sleeping with Tallulah Bankhead, Billie Holiday,and Louise Brooks and "rumored" to have slept with Josephine Baker. I don't think Garbo ever even met Tallulah Bankhead, or Billie Holiday or Josephine Baker. She might not even have met Louise Brooks. But all this talk about her being an insatiable lesbian just isn't true. Sexually, she wasn't much into men or women.

Garbo was pretty dykey in Queen Christina.

She certainly did have an affair with what's-her-name Acosta, who leaked her private letters and photos of their vacations together.

[quote] her private letters and photos

Where are they leaked?

This is from Wikipedia--

[quote] Relationship with Greta Garbo De Acosta's best-known relationship was with Greta Garbo. When Garbo's close friend, author Salka Viertel, introduced them in 1931, they quickly became involved.[14] As their relationship developed, it became erratic and volatile with Garbo always in control.[15] The two were very close sporadically and then apart for lengthy periods when Garbo, annoyed by Mercedes' obsessive behavior, coupled with her own neuroses, ignored her.[16] In any case, they remained friends for thirty years during which time Garbo wrote de Acosta 181 letters, cards, and telegrams.[17][18] About their friendship, Cecil Beaton, who was close to both women, recorded in his 1958 memoir, "Mercedes is [Garbo's] very best friend and for 30 years has stood by her, willing to devote her life to her".[19]

Although it has been argued that an intimate relationship between them cannot be proved, de Acosta states they were lovers. Contrary to legend, she did not do so in her memoir. In 1959, when she was destitute, de Acosta sold her papers to the Rosenbach Museum & Library in Philadelphia and claims to have reluctantly included romantic letters from Garbo.[20] "I would not have had the heart or courage to have burned these letters", she wrote William McCarthy, curator of the museum. "I mean, of course, Eva [sic], Greta's and Marlene's who were lovers.... I only hope ... they will be respected and protected from the eyes of vulgar people".[20] All of Garbo's and de Acosta's recent biographers, moreover, discuss their involvement.[21][22][23][8][24] Per de Acosta's request, Garbo's letters were made available to the public in 2000, ten years after her death, and none were explicitly romantic. However, Garbo's family, which controls her estate,[25] has permitted only 87 of 181 letters to be made public.[26]

^^both paragraphs are from Wikipedia. I screwed up the quote thing--sorry.

Mercedes de Acosta also ate Marlene's snatch for awhile. Marlene's daughter Maria Riva said de Acosta was creepy.

No joke, I am not young (early -mid 40's) but I was about to trash this thread and ask HOW FUCKING OLD ARE YOU PEOPLE!!??

This is actually one of the most interesting threads in a long time! I have dug learning about this chick!

R249, I'm younger than you are, but I love classic movies.

R250- Not really here- but this made me look at a few. It is very sad for me to look at these classic films. Life seems so trashy now by comparison. Classless and trashy. There really aren't any words.

R249 The divine Garbo was not a "chick". She was a sullen Swedish goddess.

R252- Agreed. And I dug her apartment and checking out her auction items.

For years I believed Hepburn was straight or at least asexual. The Mann bio and in particular the Scotty Bowers book convinced me otherwise- Liz Smith, who really did know- stated very emphatically after Kate passed away, that she was a lesbian as was Garbo. While Kate was alive she went along with the story Kate wanted for her image and Tracy’s. Classy Liz (and she was a class act) did not tell the truth until after she died which is exactly what Scotty did- no bean spilling while anyone was alive. Kate and Garbo were lesbians which in retrospect watching their films (at least for me) is obvious.

Did Garbo really have a relationship with John Gilbert or was that just studio PR?

Where did Liz Smith speak publicly about Garbo's lesbianism?

I missed that!

As Garbo was packing up to leave MGM she purportedly said to Adrian, her long-time costume designer: "You know, I never really liked most of those clothes you dressed me in."

^ How amusing (even if apocryphal)!

[quote] so G arrived in an old pair of trousers and a sweater while all the other female guests were in gowns and jewels G didn't seem to give a flip about convention.

That was the same trick Katharine Hepburn also used to play as she aged.

They knew when they were older they would no longer be the prettiest woman in the room if they wore a gown. So they would wear trousers and sweaters and stand out all the more, and make the other women look overdressed and set apart from them.

I wonder who owns the 1911 Boldini of Mercedes' sister Rita de Lydig. There are zero good reproductions of it, sadly.

[quote] Did Garbo really have a relationship with John Gilbert or was that just studio PR?

Yes, she did an an affair with him. He was crazy about her but she wouldn't marry him, which was wise of her. Later she said "I wonder what I saw in him. Well, I guess he was pretty."

Thank you for answering my question r261. One reason I love DL is because, as a fan of the Golden Age of Hollywood, many posters here have such an in-depth knowledge and can answer any question other Dlers ask. It's so great.

"They knew when they were older they would no longer be the prettiest woman in the room if they wore a gown"

As if Hepburn would ever willingly wear a dress or care about being "the prettiest", you dumb fuck.

Hepburn dressed very stylishly in the 30s in gowns and skirts and even wanted to bring Chanel to Hollywood. There's also that scene in Woman of the Year wears she's wearing a skirt and showing off a stylish pair of gams.

Hepburn's clothes in The Philadelphia Story are divine. She is at the peak of her beauty in that series of wide belted dresses, gowns and grecian style robes by Adrian. Why do people think that Hepburn was not interested in being pretty? She most certainly was. She wore clothes very well and understood their importance. She was also "sporty."

The way she describes (young) Lauren Bacall in Africa is so appreciative of natural female beauty.

R240 - De Mille called Swanson Young Fella for some bizarre reason. I think Garbo's talk of herself as a man was meant to be funny. She was known privately to have a great sense of humor.

Snipped I saved from a now-defunct website. Vivien Leigh on her first encounter with Garbo:

Vivien once told me, with a malicious glee dancing in those beautiful eyes, that one day in Hollywood she'd been walking between studio lots with a friend when she saw an extraordinary figure coming towards them. 'He, or she, I wasn't sure which, had on a grubby cotton beach hat with the brim pulled down, a threadbare sweater draped over round shoulders, quite the droopiest of shorts ever, knee-high woolen socks, and, I swear to you, darling, football boots! Football boots! I turned to my friend and said "What’s THAT?" "That" he replied, "is Garbo."'

GARBO TALKS (1985) is free to watch on FUBO app. Watch this little gem directed by Sydney Lumet and cinematographer ANDREJ BARTKOWIACK who was married to the divine actress Diane Venora at the time.

I thought I was the only Diane Venora fan around. I first saw her in Penquin Touquet and loved her ever since.

She also was one of the few female actresses to star as Hamlet himself in the Joseph Papp production in NYC public theater.

In the grand tradition of Sarah Bernhardt, Eva LeGaleane and Cush Jumbo.

I love how they talk in the documentary about the big "risk" this was. Other women had played Hamlet and this was one of the most conventional productions of Shakespeare I have ever seen.

Where was the risk?

(It was cool though that Venora looked like a tweenaged boy. No Hamlet ever looked younger.)

She’s straight but did a superb job in THE JACKAL (1997) as Major Valentina Koslova - her character alone is worthy of its own separate dedicated thread.

Kate and Spence could very well have been bi. Spence at MGM was known to mentor young handsome gay men like Tom Drake and Van Johnson even shutting down a film after Van was in a car accident when it was still early enough to replace him with another actor. No Van no film. Very unusual but Tracy had great leverage with LB.

[quote] Kate and Spence could very well have been bi. Spence at MGM was known to mentor young handsome gay men like Tom Drake and Van Johnson even shutting down a film after Van was in a car accident when it was still early enough to replace him with another actor. No Van no film. Very unusual but Tracy had great leverage with LB.

Both Tracy and his costar Irene Dunne asked that the studio wait for Johnson to recover, and it was her idea to do it. It was his big break and he was giving a star-making performance. They were halfway through the film and bigwigs at the studio must have been aware that the rushes with Johnson had been great. Tracy and Hepburn may have been bi but I'm not sure this incident proves that.

There's evidence of Hepburn's other relationships with men (Douglas Fairbanks was dating her and came across her fooling around with her costar Charles Boyer in a car, for ex). She had a relationship with Howard Hughes, and she was close to John Ford. All these people could have been bi, but that is hardly unusual in show business. Tracy had had a relationship with Loretta Young (very serious). Joan Fontaine said he was after her, and he was into Gene Tierney, Grace Kelly, and others. All this while he was with Hepburn. The only evidence Tracy was with men is Scotty Bowers saying he serviced Tracy on occasion. This may be true, but if Tracy was ever screwing around with other guys who weren't hustlers like Bowers, there are no names.

Garbo was also involved with men, John Gilbert, Gaylord Houser, the natural food guru, Leopold Stokowski . She was probably bi, as well.

William Daniels was the cinematographer for the Garbo screen test. He shot most of her MGM films. I think he was the favorite of all the big female stars at the studio.

R275 His name is George O'Brien and I had him first.

Is that George O'Brien the star of Sunrise? He was great and hot.

And his son Darcy wrote one of the great Hollywood novels, A Way of Life, Like Any Other

Before drink ravaged him Tracy was good looking.

Maureen O'Hara outed John Ford. When she walked into his office once (ever hear of knocking first Maureen?) she found him making out with a big male star. For some reason she has no problem outing her beloved John Ford(which is admittedly very surprising. He never even made a musical.) but doesn't out the star.

^. Maureen O'Hara was a Catholic ratbag.

She haunted the hospital deathbed where Charles Laughton was trying to die in peace. She was haranguing him to dies as a 'proper Catholic'.

At time of sale Garbo's apartment was only one co-op board allowed to install central air conditioning. You can see vents cleverly hidden in pictures of some rooms.

[quote] For some reason she has no problem outing her beloved John Ford (which is admittedly very surprising. He never even made a musical.) but doesn't out the star.

She also claimed the guy, "one of the most famous leading men in the picture business," later asked why she hadn’t told him Ford was gay. She answered, "How could I tell you something I knew nothing about?"

R279 Maybe it was John Wayne with John Ford. Maureen O'Hara just adored John Wayne and they worked together and all. She was a gorgeous lady but no Garbo.

No one was a Garbo except Garbo.

She was very beautiful on film and in photos. Fun to look at. But her life and the real woman was not interesting at all. She knew that. Gave her last inteview in 1928.

She knew past 36 her looks would evaporate and she didn't have the personality to warrant a further career so she opted out. Smart in a way. She was just a very ordinary looking boring dyke the last decades of her life, the mystery was that there was no mystery.

r286 shut up, you basement dweller

r287 I also think Judy Garland was an overrated, mentally ill, attention -seeking ,child -abusing addict who destroyed herself and everyone around her, what you gonna do about it?

I feel that way about a lot of the Scandinavians, though, including my favorite Birgit Nilsson.

She was the greatest soprano in the world (arguably) who spent her free time shopping for cheap shoes. She said in interviews that if she hadn't become a singer, she would have been a farmer. When she retired, she went back to her farm. No glamor at all.

Bartkowiak was also married to Holly Hunter.

r288 You are right about miss Judy

WHET Diane Venora? Such a beautiful actress and unique talent.

She came to such a no good end in F/X, she did.

Venora's Hamlet...

Major Valentina Koslova deserves her own thread!

R94.

So is there any footage of the fully staged performance?

Can’t find anything.

(Just stealing a little thunder from La Garbo/Miss G. for another struggling sister).

R296, no one hangs on to B-roll from the 1980s.

[quote]She knew past 36 her looks would evaporate and she didn't have the personality to warrant a further career so she opted out. Smart in a way. She was just a very ordinary looking boring dyke the last decades of her life, the mystery was that there was no mystery.

As Garbo fans (obviously, not you) know, she didn't intend to retire. She was supposed to make Madame Curie (possibly with Spencer Tracy), but the film was postponed when WWII broke out. Garbo's popularity was mainly in Europe, by this time, and the European film market for Hollywood films was messed up by the war. The movie was later made with Greer Garson and Walter Pidgeon. Basically Garbo retired inadvertently. As has already been stated in this thread, she was going to make a comeback after the war in an independent production, and she considered several other comebacks. So she didn't decide at 36 she was done.

Incidentally, her last film, Two Faced Woman, is often called a flop, but it actually made a profit.

Ah yes, Greer and Madame Curie...

Hepburn and Garbo were not bisexuals, my god. Scotty Bowers might be somewhat unreliable (though I'm inclined to believe a lot of what he says) but Liz Smith of all people would fucking know. Of course, they had "records" of relationships with men because they grew up in the era where you'd go to jail for being openly gay.

Rock Hudson also had "records" of relationships with women - he even married! Same with Charles Laughton. Raymond Burr invented an entire fake family "on record" to stay in the closet. Why does nobody ever interject with "actually, they were probably bi...."

A friend of mine was close to Cukor and attended both his gay and straight parties. Later he became a famous LA architect. He told me many years before Bowers book came out that the Tracey and Hepburn affair was a fake PR story and both of them were gay. He not only knew this directly from Cukor but also from experience with Tracey whom he met. He said he was a mess and a terrible drunk who was impotent, he couldn't get it on with anyone even if he had wanted too. I have posted this story many times in the DL over many years.

You're totally right on all accounts, r301. Especially about the double standard.

R283 John Ford discovered young hung Marion Morrison( John Wayne) when he was a fullback for USC. Wayne owed his career to Ford who he called Pappy. So I wouldn't be surprised if he sampled the Duke.

r302, how did Cukor explain to your friend why Spencer Tracy needed Hepburn to beard for him when he already had a wife and two kids?

Hepburn didn't beard for him, r305, they were good friends.

It was a long time ago - 20 years ago - that he told me this. I don't remember him mentioning anything about his family. He not only heard about Tracy from Cukor he had his only experience in meeting him. I don't remember if he said he met him at Cukors or at the house Cukor had given him to live in. My friend was not only a rich architect in later life, but he was very attractive, too.

Years before Bowers spoke about Tracy there was an interview with somebody non famous who had ties to old Hollywood who said Tracy was gay. First I had heard about it.

Maureen had it over Garbo in that she was sexy and straight men would have wanted her in their dreams. I doubt any man wanted to have sex with Garbo.

R301 Those all timers like Liz Smith didn't understood bisexuality. To them it was either straight or gay. They called bisexual people, homosexuals.

"Hepburn and Garbo were not bisexuals, my god. Scotty Bowers might be somewhat unreliable (though I'm inclined to believe a lot of what he says) but Liz Smith of all people would fucking know. Of course, they had "records" of relationships with men because they grew up in the era where you'd go to jail for being openly gay."

How would Liz Smith "would fucking known?" And you believe Scotty Bowers? Sweetie, if you believe him then you'll believe anything.

Spence? I don't know him.

In a Coward biography Noel was with some friends and they were playing can you top this in terms of sexual partners and he said, 'I slept with Cagney, top that!'

Now in the early 30s Cagney was friends with Lincoln Kirstein about the biggest NY ' gay man there was so who knows what past Cagney had in the theater.

"Louisa was a movie queen Before she'd achieved the age of sweet sixteen Long before Cagney threw those girls about"

'Louisa' by Coward

[quote] Hepburn didn't beard for him, [R305], they were good friends.

Are you fucking kidding? It's constantly being said that both Tracy and Hepburn were gay and that they bearded for each other, forgetting the fact that Tracy was married and in no need of a beard. I don't know if Hepburn needed one, either. Wearing trousers and being independent and forthright doesn't necessarily mean a woman liked to eat pussy.

Where did the gay rumors about Spencer Tracy start? Who said he was gay? Darwin Porter? Scotty Bowers? Yeah, those two are REALLY credible sources (snort). I never understood how anybody could say Spencer Tracy was gay, because he was not. He was, in fact, a lady's man. He had affairs with women like Ingrid Bergman and Loretta Young. Tracy, who was a very plain looking man, wondered why beautiful women would be interested in him. Actually, it was kind of obvious; they were attracted to his talent and his unpretentious personality.

As for Tracy and Hepburn, well, you can think anything you want about their relationship, but the fact if that Hepburn was totally devoted to him. She, who never backed down from a fight, always deferred to him. She took no shit from anyone but she took "everything" from him. She worshipped him.

Tracy was not a very plain looking man. He was a good looking young actor. Way back. Like Bogart who was surprisingly handsome when he was a NY actor in the 20s.

[quote] It's constantly being said that both Tracy and Hepburn were gay

I ignore the undocumented chattering of fools.

R315 I always found Bogie hot because he was so charismatic. I love rough, craggy faced guys so that might be way. But something about Tracy made him never appeal to me.....he seemed miserable.

R316 Fools like Liz Smith and Scotty Bowers, unlike the REAL educated people on DL who claim every historical figure as "bisexual" because they had "documented" relationships with the opposite sex!

I'll take the word of a fools who was there vs some Photoplay reading idolatrous old queen like R316

[quote]A friend of mine was close to Cukor and attended both his gay and straight parties. Later he became a famous LA architect. He told me many years before Bowers book came out that the Tracey and Hepburn affair was a fake PR story and both of them were gay. He not only knew this directly from Cukor but also from experience with Tracey whom he met. He said he was a mess and a terrible drunk who was impotent, he couldn't get it on with anyone even if he had wanted too

But it wasn't a PR story. They were together for decades before the public got wind of them being together. They were just known as frequent costars. Tracy was married until his death and that was the PR story - that he was a happily married man. They were both very private, besides. I think I read neither of them even employed a publicist.

How did your friend who met Tracy know that he was gay from the fact that he was impotent and couldn't get it on with anyone even if he wanted to? Did Tracy tell him?

Now absolutely nobody believes me and I've been shouted down even on DL but it's worth repeating. Well I think it is.

Many many years ago I was working in NY with a straight guy who really didn't care about gay people either way. Didn't discuss them at all. No interest. I do know he was a dog where women were concerned. He was a huge movie buff and loved stuff like Star Trek and Indiana Jones and old moves too. We went to see The Searchers together at the Metro. His uncle was a famous NY detective and knew everything about everybody in NY. He showed me his uncle being talked about in the book Prince in the City. We were talking about River Kwai and he said 'My uncle told me William Holden was gay but I still like his movies.' Now remember this guy usually never gossiped like this. It was off his radar.

Make of it what you will.

MGM wanted to renegotiate her contract since her lucrative European market wasn’t marketing her films.

[quote]"Hepburn and Garbo were not bisexuals, my god. Scotty Bowers might be somewhat unreliable (though I'm inclined to believe a lot of what he says) but Liz Smith of all people would fucking know.

How could Liz Smith possibly know if someone was not bisexual? She could only have known what she heard. She wasn't in their bedrooms. Even reliable sources rarely get this stuff right. Bi people are often called gay, even by "reliable" sources. People don't know all about the personal lives of others.

Also there are a lot of people on DL who don't believe bisexuality exists and want to call every bisexual gay.

[quote]'My uncle told me William Holden was gay but I still like his movies.'

Holden was a notorious womanizer. At most, he was bi, but I never heard he was.

For years Tracy rented a cottage on Cukor’s estate. Hepburn used to clean up Tracy there after one of his benders. Cukor’s only comment to reporters about the arrangement was that Tracy was good with the rent.

I've never heard a thing about Holden either except that he was a womanizer so I was baffled that somebody like this would mention it in passing. Maybe he was bi and was caught once with a guy and it was covered up?

R 325 That's possible. But if he was actually gay, as your friend's dad thought, he sure liked women a lot.

I can believe that Liz Smith might have very well-known the truth about Katharine Hepburn (Smith was a close friend, possibly more, of Hepburn acolyte Cynthia McFadden - I saw them about town in NY several times, but what I can't believe is that Liz would have ever talked publicly about Hepburn in intimate detail, even after Hepburn's death. I truly think Liz would have remained a loyal and silent friend.

But f Liz's words are documented anywhere, I'd love to read them. Prove me wrong.

It was Cukor who told my friend Hepburn and Tracy's affair was not real, and that they were both gay or bi. I cannot tell you the exact words he used since I was not there. My friend met Tracy and reported what I posted. He told me and my partner in 1993 when he was staying with us in Austin. He must have told others. I assumed that he had been one of Cukor's boys. As I have posted he said he attended both gay and straight parties at Cukors. He was very handsome and became very rich - but lost it all when his business collapsed. He knew lots of celebrities in Southern California and had many fascinating stories to tell. I have not seen him in ten years or more and he might have passed away. I cannot prove what he said, obviously.

[quote] I cannot tell you the exact words he used since I was not there

NONE of us were there. And yet we persist in believing undocumented third-hand gossip.

[quote] I truly think Liz would have remained a loyal and silent friend. But f Liz's words are documented anywhere, I'd love to read them. Prove me wrong.

Smith said it in Matt Tyrnauer's documentary "Scotty And The Secret History Of Hollywood." He has her on film saying "what the hell difference does it make now, they’re all dead."

Always be suspicious of someone who comes out with shocking revelations about someone years after they're dead. Literally everyone Scotty Bowers has made wild accusations about (Charles Laughton eating feces sandwiches is one example) had been dead for many years. Dead people can't sue, you know. They can't defend themselves.

It's hardly a shocking revelation that Hepburn was probably a lesbian.

It's hardly a definitive statement either R332. And who really cares? Do you want to be labelled as straight by your family and ancestors when you die?

[quote] It's hardly a shocking revelation that Hepburn was probably a lesbian.

Who says that? Anybody with any credibility at all?

The late Liz Smith, for one-- as cited above in multiple posts.

Liz Smith was a gossip columnist. They say a lot of bullshit.

charlie sold Liz Smith a knock-off hankie from his cart outside Grand Central Station. She informed him then that Katherine Hepburn was a lesbian! charlie met a lot of people from his cart. Jackie O'Nassis once spit on him. True Story.

R234 reminds me of all the obnoxious cunts we had to suffer on the Jodie Foster threads through the years, demanding if ANYBODY ANYWHERE had any proof to prove Jodie's bisexuality besides vile gossip. She has TWO children !

I meant r334 above

Liz Smith did NOT say Hepburn was a lesbian in that documentary.

R338 us an idiot. I don't think I've ever seen anyone on Datalounge say Jodie Foster was "bi-sexual." This dumb twat must be imagining things.

Liz Smith told charlie that Jodie Foster was bi-sexual. They're all dead - what does it matter now?

So the remake is going to have a BLACK Louis? Oh my God, that is so dumb. I guess Claudia will be black, too. And the slaves will be white. What a crapfest this will turn out to be.

Oops, wrong thread! R343 should be in the Interview with the Vampire thread.

Who, R334? William J. Mann. His biography is not sensationalistic or gossipy, but he does talk frankly about Hepburn's lesbianism.

And for cripes sake, did Hope Williams have any straight female friends?

I saw an Ozu film from the 50s with Setsuko Hara at Film Forum. In the film she is a big fan of Hepburn's and an acquaintance makes a remark about Hepburn being a dyke. These suspicions are not new. Any cineaste know which film I am talking about and the details because it is so long ago now. One of those Late Spring, Early Summer films.

[quote] I don't think I've ever seen anyone on Datalounge say Jodie Foster was "bi-sexual." This dumb twat must be imagining things.

Are you kidding ? Before she came out DL was perpetually full of threads about her with posters insisting she was nothing but straight, that gays were "wishful thinking" and "accusing" everybody of being gay, that her partner must be a friend helping raise the kids and that at most she was MAYBE bisexual. Meanwhile any rational person could see she was a big old lez and those cunts finally STFU when she came out.

It's the same thing with Garbo or Hepburn. Same bullshit. It's absolutely ridiculous.

If anyone can find and post a clip of the ancient LIz Smith outing Hepburn in the Scotty Bowers doc, we'd all love to see it.

In what Tracy/Hepburn film is there even the slightest scintilla of lust between the two of them? The massage scene in Adam's Rib evokes a deep, deep...fondness.

The Tracy/Hepburn screen relationship was never intended to be sold as a lustful match. Bogie and Bacall, they weren't.

I was just making the point, r350, that if there had been off-screen lust between the two of them, it would have translated to on-screen.

Barbara: What type of twee would woo wike to be?

Kate: Oh not a tree! A bush. A nice fresh young bush.

Wrong, r352.

I think people who suggested Hepburn was bi were mostly reacting to Sondheim's story of seeing Spencer passionately embrace Katharine. There's also that famous home movie shot where he's dragging her into a shed with the implication that they're gonna get bangin'. Hepburn also dated a few men before Spencer.

Personally I think she was a late-in-life lesbian a la Meredith Baxter, or maybe closeted earlier in her life for her career, but I can see why people would wonder about the details.

Matt Tyrnaur mentions in this interview that Liz went on record about Hepburn in the Bowers documentary.

Sorry, meant to quote Tyrnaur in r355, here it is:

[quote]One thing that I’d like to point out about Tracy and Hepburn, and this has never happened before now, but Liz Smith goes on the record in the film to talk about Katharine Hepburn’s lesbian relationships and how protective she was of her own image. Liz Smith was very close to Hepburn and very involved in her life over the last 40 years of it. Smith was also a very trustworthy person who was not known for making stuff up at all, quite the opposite. That was very valuable for me because she’d never talked about it before. She herself was a lesbian who was careful in the same way that Hepburn was, but then she did eventually come out and was quite open about it. We were very lucky to get Liz Smith, she died last year at 94 and this was one of her last interviews, so I was happy that she finally spoke about Katharine Hepburn’s truth.

Aaand I also misspelled the name, it's Matt Tyrnauer, the director.

[quote] In what Tracy/Hepburn film is there even the slightest scintilla of lust between the two of them?

Woman Of The Year. Their first film. They have a very sexy relationship in that.

[quote]There's also that famous home movie shot where he's dragging her into a shed with the implication that they're gonna get bangin'. Hepburn also dated a few men before Spencer.

It's a fake home movie from the film, Adam's Rib. Not an actual home movie.

I don't think you guys realize that Hepburn had absolutely nothing to gain from her revelations of their relationship, after Tracy's death. At first she was extremely unhappy with the biography, Tracy And Hepburn, later she embraced talking about the relationship when she became less totally private about her life (She had been, for most of her career, almost as reclusive with the public as Garbo. She never appeared to accept any of her Oscars, for ex. Her interview with Dick Cavett was probably the first time she ever granted a TV interview.)

The fact is, she talked about their relationship, she wrote about it, and it's stupid not to believe that there was a relationship. considering this. It doesn't make either of them 100% straight. That, we don't know. But if both were 100% gay they weren't going to be together for 25 years. Hepburn spoke as if she loved him deeply. When he died, she couldn't attend his funeral and talked about following the hearse most of the way to the church and then turning the car around. This isn't someone who had a relationship to prove something to to other people.

No mention of Laura Harding yet?

[quote]he press began calling Harding "Katharine Hepburn's other half".[citation needed] The pair moved to the West Coast to launch Hepburn's Hollywood career, and Harding took care of Hepburn, including wardrobe design, acting as a press agent and negotiating with producers and directors. Harding once described herself facetiously as "Miss Hepburn's husband".[9] Hers was the most private and enduring of all of Hepburn’s friendships with women. "I think it's fair to say," Hepburn later said, "that Laura Harding saved my life."[10]

R353 Has the sense of humor of a brick

What happened to the thread about Garbo?

She clearly had a facelift around the time of this interview, but why? She didn't seem like the type to care about her appearance, and she was at the end of her acting career(and life) so it wasn't like she needed to maintain a youthful appearance to get roles. Plus, she had Parkinson's, so why worry about her face?

She was still appearing in front of the camera and didn't want to look like an old hag, r362. It was a matter of practicality as well as vanity.

Even Henry Fonda got his eyes done - I remember reading about this, because apparently Bette Davis called him about it because she heard he had had it done, and was thinking of doing it. He didn't seem particularly vain. But these people were still acting on screen.

Read the Mann bio, r358. They were hardly "together for 25 years".

Bette Davis had a facelift in the late 70s that really improved her appearance. All the booze and cigs did a number on her face and she needed a tune-up.

I have a relative who did some work for Hepburn in the 90s. She was someone with no gaydar and no interest in gossip (probably because her work put her in contact with a number of celebrities in many fields).

I remember seeing her after she spent time at Hepburns place and she announced that Kate and Phyllis were a sweet older lesbian couple. Usually she never knew who was gay because she did not go to their homes. But seeing Kate and Phyllis in their home she thought she could tell us something we did not know.

And we all said, Eveyone knows they're gay.

It deflated the poor woman.

R346 That Ozu movie is "Early Summer" (1951).

Sotaro: Has Noriko ever been in love?

Aya: I don’t think so. But she has an album of Katharine Hepburn albums this thick *indicates very thick*

Sotaro: Who’s Hepburn?

Aya: An American actress.

Sotaro: A woman?

Aya: Yes

Sotaro: Is she queer?

Aya: No way!

Sotaro: You can never know, she’s very strange in any case. Why don’t you teach her?

Aya: About what?

Sotaro: Everything

Aya: What do you mean, everything?

Sotaro: Don’t try to be coy.

[quote]It's a fake home movie from the film, Adam's Rib. Not an actual home movie.

WTF, I've seen Adam's Rib, how do I not remember seeing that clip in the movie?

You do not remember the film as well as you think.

It is just about the only thing I do remember..

[quote]You do not remember the film as well as you think.

Yeah, obviously. I definitely remember that I didn't care for it, so I won't be watching it to refresh my memory.

Those "home movies" in ADAM'S RIB are brilliantly shot and I believe ultimately went a long way in convincing later audiences of the Tracy/Hepburn romance, even if that wasn't their original intention.

Most of their best screen appearances together after WOMAN OF THE YEAR occurred when they were well into their 40s - ADAM'S RIB, PAT & MIKE, DESK SET, and later - GUESS WHO'S COMING TO DINNER - so I don't really understand this question of why they didn't come off more lustily, especially in the climate of 1950s and 60s Hollywood when they were made.

Even one of the greatest Hollywood screen couples of all time, William Powell and Myrna Loy, were hardly lusty onscreen together.

[quote]Even one of the greatest Hollywood screen couples of all time, William Powell and Myrna Loy, were hardly lusty onscreen together

But you could imagine them *doing it*, r372. There was still a sexual chemistry with them.

One thing about both Greta Garbo and Katharine Hepburn is that I cannot even imagine them living in Los Angeles, but of course both of them lived there for decades. It's just so weird to picture them in LA.

I don't know why, r374. Swimming, tennis, and plenty of scenic areas to walk. I'm sure there were aspects of it they enjoyed.

r373, I'm sorry but you have a very limited imagination.

William J. Mann believes Scotty Bowers, which is ample evidence that he's an idiot who will believe anything.

Unlike Frau Hepburn I didn't need a pimp to wrangle up my pussy.

[quote] if there had been off-screen lust between the two of them, it would have translated to on-screen.

Not necessarily. But I did see a scene in one of their movies where I guess you could say "lust" was involved. Hepburn and Tracy are talking and bantering and she says to him "look..." , to which he replies "I'm looking." The look on his face and the sound of his voices implies strong attraction. Good acting? Maybe. Or maybe he didn't have to act much at all. Maybe the attraction was real. It's quite possible.

Hardly, r376. Even if you disregard the Bowers, r377, Mann chronicles the amount of time Tracy and Hepburn spent together through the years and there were long stretches where they were apart.

[quote]Hardly, [R376]. Even if you disregard the Bowers, [R377], Mann chronicles the amount of time Tracy and Hepburn spent together through the years and there were long stretches where they were apart.

Well, they weren't actually married. I think it can still be said there was no man in Hepburn's life after age 35 or 40 who she was more intimate with than Tracy, and vice versa. That's the point. She was in the house with him when he died.

I know that, r381, but I don't believe their intimacy had been of a physical nature.

[quote]I know that, [R381], but I don't believe their intimacy had been of a physical nature.

Tracy was involved with many women, other than his wife, with who he had two children. Loretta Young and Ingrid Bergman, for example. If he had physical affairs with them, and apparently he did, Hepburn came along right after Bergman so why would he have a platonic relationship with her? She, too, was involved with various men who were not known to go out with women just to play cards.

*with whom

R378

No, I was celibate.

Who outside of Hughes, r383?

R368 So the characters are discussing this Noriko woman being queer, not Katherine Hepburn.

[quote]I actually envy her life. She was fascinated with people but didn't want close contact with most of them. Financially well-off; a cool apartment; and mostly anonymous in New York... sounds okay with me.

Not bragging, but substitute Houston for New York and it sounds like me. And it's a lovely existence.

Well this got ruined, this is why we can't have nice things

[quote] What happened to the thread about Garbo?

I want to be left alone.

One of the later roles Garbo was offered was the Mother Superior in The Trouble with Angels. Ida Lupino directed and eventually went with Rosalind Russell. It was a supporting role and I think Garbo could have been just as funny as Roz.

She is warm and funny in Ninotchka when she comes back with Melvyn Douglas from their night on the town in Paris. She's realizing that life can be fun and pleasurable. Though I don't know if she ever actually felt that way in her life.

^Rubbish.

Greta couldn't do comedy. Two faced Woman was embarrassingly bad. Billy Wilder knew she was unable to do comedy so Melvyn Douglas had to do all the work in Ninotchka.

R393 If he knew she can't do comedy, he wouldn't cast her in his comedy movie.

I agree with you, R394, I just watched the movie and she was very funny. But I have a sense of humor. By the way, R393 and R394, Ernst Lubitsch directed Ninotchka, Billy Wilder was the co-writer.

Who outside of Hughes, [R383]?

Leland Hayward. She was also married.

R331, Scotty Bowers book and docu never said that about Laughton, and sorry- everything in Bowers book is on target- I’ve known about Scotty and his antics since the 70s. His book and his revelations were nothing of the kind to the gay and entertainment community of Hollywood. I also knew one of Scotty’s guys- he is where I first learned about the Duke and Duchess’ predilections- and Spencer Tracy.

Back to G.G…

Some of her funny habits. It was written that she made her own suppers and there are funny accounts of her failed attempts at making poached eggs. She felt sorry for the egg. Her self prepared dinners were very simple: the poached egg was one. And she to a butcher to get her “small piece of steak” Or spaghetti, probably using bottled sauce.

Also I think Scotty Bowers said in his book that Hepburn asked him if he knew any young women that she could go on walks with around the Hollywood Reservoir. I seem to remember that. For whatever reason, she didn't seem to want to take it beyond that.

An interesting thing about Tracy, he could have lived in a mansion, but his family's house in LA was pretty simple and his wife usually made the meal if they had guests - usually pork chops. Later when he didn't live with his family, or when he lived with Hepburn, he preferred small-ish places, like the guest house on George Cukor's property.

...Not that his house in Encino wasn't really nice. It was a ranch, and was beautiful. but just saying it wasn't one of those big Beverly Hills mansions.

Back in those days many A Listers lived in houses that today we would consider more upper-middle class. Even B Listers these days live in sprawling mega-properties but it was different back then. This was Lucille Ball's house....

Joan Crawford's house....

Cary Grant's house...

[quote] Scotty Bowers book and docu never said that about Laughton, and sorry- everything in Bowers book is on target- I’ve known about Scotty and his antics since the 70s. His book and his revelations were nothing of the kind to the gay and entertainment community of Hollywood. I also knew one of Scotty’s guys- he is where I first learned about the Duke and Duchess’ predilections- and Spencer Tracy.

You're a liar like Bowers. To wit:

In his memoir Full Service: My Adventures in Hollywood and the Sex Lives of the Stars, Scotty Bowers claims to have slept with or arranged sexual liaisons for hundreds of the best-known celebrities in the Golden Age of Hollywood. In one of the most shocking stories in his book, he reveals the secret fetish of British actor Charles Laughton.

According to Bowers, the actor asked him to come over to his house with a hot, young, male guest for him to spend some time with while his wife was out. When Bowers and the young man arrived, Laughton started making a sandwich, slicing up lettuce and tomatoes and arranging them on sourdough bread with a bit of lemon juice and some salt and pepper. Finally, after a few minutes of prep work, the actor took the bread slices in one hand, picked up a pot with another, and asked the young man to follow him into the bathroom.

This is what happened next according to Bowers:

“Charles was the first to return. He put the plate with the bread slices on the kitchen table. I could see that the lettuce and tomatoes had been lightly smeared with a light brown substance. Seconds later Ted appeared in the kitchen. His erection was gone and he was looking decidedly sheepish, perhaps even a trifle embarrassed. I stared at him curiously, and he pulled a face, hoping that Charles wouldn’t notice. He pointed at the bread slices on the plate and then lightly patted his backside.”

And then he ate the sandwich.

^ Rubbish. Unbelievable, Shocking Gossip without foundation.

If Laughton regularly, or even occasionally, ate shit sandwiches, he would have died from them.

Or spent a lot of time too ill to make movies. Billy Wilder said Laughton was one of his best friends and favorite people. I for some reason think that he and Maureen O'Hara wouldn't have been so fond of him if this were true. And Elsa would have had to live with the constant stench of shit all the time.

DON'T FEED THE SCAT TROLL

I first heard the stories about Laughton and the shit sandwiches when I moved to New York back in the 70s, long, long before the stories ever appeared in print. Back then he was alleged to be a pedo scat queen with the main ingredient supplied by little boys.

You're a liar and a dirt bag R410.

You "heard" stories back in the 70s? That makes you about 80 fucking ancient white fag years old. I don't even know who Charles Laughton is. But I do KNOW that miss warwicke is also the SCAT troll. And it loves this kind of conversation. So many DeeVices. Change your diaper R410.

You seem terribly invested in these stories, r411. Perhaps unhealthily so.

I also heard the Charles Laughton shit stories long before Scotty Bowers.

And you seem very worried about being exposed as the ubiquitous poster with many IPs and identities = also known as miss warwicke, R412.

All of your obsessions are unhealthy. You're a total grotesque human being. Or what's left of one.

Well, I don't care what you think r414. Among other reasons, I don't have any sock puppet accounts so I'm not whoever you think I am and you are obviously not very bright. But probably very drunk.

I don't drink R415. You do lie though.

Well I guess I've been put in my place. R416 has SPOKEN!

R415 has a few accounts. Funny old man. We see you. Stop talking about eating feces. Your hobby doesn't have anything to do with Greta Garbo.

Hepburn always that she and Tracy never married because Spencer's wife Louise Tracy would never grant him a divorce because she was a "staunch" Catholic. Louise Tracy was Episcopalian.

May I remind you who the subject of this thread is?

Garbo was a goddess.

[quote] I also heard the Charles Laughton shit stories long before Scotty Bowers.

Where? From whom? Anybody even remotely credible? Or maybe you're just a storyteller like Bowers.

After Scotty Bowers kicked the bucket the LA Daily Mirror reprinted this::

Scotty Bowers 1923 – 2019 | Liar to the Stars

Scotty Bowers’ mountain of lies is not the hill I care to die on. But be assured that he has told a mountain of lies. Have you seen even one photograph of him with one of his alleged amours? Scotty and Spencer Tracy? Scotty and Katharine Hepburn? Scotty and, well, any A-list celebrity, really? Rin-Tin-Tin? Trigger? Flipper? Nellybelle?

His book (and I refuse to waste my time on the movie) is full of lies and anachronisms: In the days before cars had air conditioning, Walter Pidgeon tools around Hollywood in the summer with the windows rolled up. A car crunches up the gravel driveway of a house that doesn’t have a driveway. Scotty hides in the closet of a bedroom that has no closets.

On and on and on.

Impressionable and naive audiences (and reporters lacking the essential skepticism of their trade) may be impressed by the old coot who tells whoppers about Hollywood in the Golden Age, but for the rest of us, life is just too short for such nonsense. See also: Kenneth Anger, Darwin Porter, E.J. Fleming, John Gilmore, and the five-foot shelf of Hollywood trash.

When I think of Garbo I think of... Ginger Rogers.

From Gielgud's letters:

15 April 1947, New York

I went to a big Russian Easter party at the dressmaker's Valentina [Schlee]. All the élite, masses of champagne, and beautiful pictures and flowers in a lovely house. Had a long talk with Garbo who is the most extraordinary individual-- little girl face and now quite short straight hair tied with an Alice ribbon, hideously cut dress of beautiful printed cotton to her calves, and then huge feet in heel-less black pumps. Lovely childlike expression and great sweetness. She never stopped talking, but absolutely to no purpose-- said her life was empty, aimless, but the time passed so quickly that there was never time to do anything one wanted to do! All this with twinkling eyes and great animation, not at all the mournful tones of her imitators-- charming slight accent. But I couldn't make out whether her whole attitude was a terrific pose or just plain stupidity-- perhaps a mixture of the two!

I hope Gielgud discovered DL before he died.

Gielgud was so guileless.

I wish I could have seen them together. Even though Great rejected Larry back in '33.

Another letter from Gielgud, who has run into Garbo on Park Avenue:

8 November 1958

Lovely day in New York-- glorious summer weather, no overcoats-- met Miss Garbo on Park Avenue looking like a displaced charwoman. I'm sure she cuts her own hair with nail scissors. Distantly gracious, and that beautiful smile. 'Don't touch me,' (as I made to shake hands) 'I am ill-- on my way to the specialist!'

[quote] a displaced charwoman

A wonderful description! As witty as Beaton.

Scotty Bowers was the guy who said that he hooked Katherine Hepburn with over 150 women. Yeah...

Cecil Beaton was an awful person. Don't believe anything he said.

Yes true but a very gifted individual with some of the most indelible images of the 20th Century and his diaries are charming and vivid. The end is heartbreaking with the death of his cat the bleakness he feels and his soon to follow death.

Oddly Scotty is one of the few people about which he has anything nice to say who isn't a close friend. Yet Scotty in his book made him out to be quite tiresome.

His pages on Coco and dealing with a massive Broadway production for which he has to create scores of dresses and dealing with the ego from hell a very frightened Kate is very entertaining.

[quote] Cecil Beaton was an awful person

Yes, you told us that in the other thread.

All because, I assume, of four little words from 1938.

Four decades of creativity dismissed by you because of the horror of those four little words.

If Katherine Hepburn slept with over 150 random women, wouldn't at least one of them admit that to someone and it start the rumors. Or sell the story to the media? I know that Betty Page said she slept with her, but she's the only one. And how reliable is she?

Are you talking about the time Beaton was fired from Vogue for calling Babe Paley a "kike"?

. I for some reason think that he and Maureen O'Hara wouldn't have been so fond of him if this were true

hmmm, not exactly something you'd tell people about though, is it?

Cecil Beaton was a great artists, but great artists can also be awful people.

R404 That's a picture of Cary Grant's *second * home, in Palm Springs. It was modeled on an Andalusian farmhouse. Anyway, yes. some stars lived more modestly then (but everyone did). The point about Tracy was that he lived in the guest cottage on George Cukor's property for years, and it wasn't lavish, despite his being quite well off and able to live in luxury. That was my point.

I'm sure Wilder and O'Hara were plugged in everywhere. Wilder's wife was one of the leaders of Hollywood's social set. They would have heard nothing?

[quote] If Katherine Hepburn slept with over 150 random women, wouldn't at least one of them admit that to someone and it start the rumors. Or sell the story to the media?

If Katherine Hepburn was the insatiable dyke some make her out to be you can be damn sure that some of her lovers would have come forward by now. And Betty Page? She sounds like she's full of shit.

Scotty Bowers said he procured lesbian sex for Hepburn 150 times. Yeah, right! Hepburn wouldn't have thought somebody like Bowers good enough to spit on, much less have him set her with lesbian hookers.

[quote] Cecil Beaton was a great artist

He was clever, moody, resourceful and mostly successful.

He dressed and photographed Isabel Jeans in 1944 whose movie career had very faded since the 20s.

Beaton's fabulous photo persuaded Minnelli to bring her back to star in 'Gigi' in 1958.

The thing about Hepburn is that if she was on the make for lesbian hook-ups (totally possible btw!), she'd be meeting dozens of young women daily on her movie sets, in the RKO and MGM offices, in their wardrobe departments, in hair and makeup, not to mention through gay friends of her own. She'd hardly need a gas station attendant to help her.

It's insane that anyone would believe Bowers on this.

I'll bet all of these anti-Scotty postings are the same person on a one-man crusade.

[quote" I'll bet all of these anti-Scotty postings are the same person on a one-man crusade.

Actually, quite a few people don't believe Bower's stories. Why should they?

[quote] Actually, quite a few people don't believe Bower's stories. Why should they?

I believe them because I had heard most of them years before they were published.

Where are the receipts? Silencing lying whores doesn't come cheap. Ascribing some voracious bull dyke on the prowl quality to Hepburn is just fucking ridiculous. She would be a far more careful and sexually discreet human being. With men or women.

I think the fact that there are NO pictures of Scotty with any of the many Hollywood actors during all those years is pretty damning. And I'd like to believe everything he says except the shit sandwiches.

[quote] I believe them because I had heard most of them years before they were published.

You believe that Bowers had a three way with Lana Turner and Ava Gardner? You believe he had threesomes with The Duke and Duchess of Windsor? That he pimped for Linda Lovelace? If so, then you, poor soul, will believe anything. My guess is that you also believe that Darwin Porter and Kenneth Anger are credible sources of information.

Did Scotty get anyone for Greta?

before she died Debbie Reynolds same out to vouch that Scotty Bowers was a known bar tender and man about town who procured sex for people, sharing an anecdote about him using his dick to mix drinks at parties

Before she died Debbie Reynolds thought she was Luke Skywalker too. I've used my dick to mix a drink and make a cum sandwich. Cream in the coffee - all that fetish shit that pays well if you look like me. These are awkward tricks. Not for big parties.

[quote] before she died Debbie Reynolds same out to vouch that Scotty Bowers was a known bar tender and man about town who procured sex for people, sharing an anecdote about him using his dick to mix drinks at parties

You know that towards the end of her life Debbie Reynolds was getting senile, don't you?

[quote]I've used my dick to mix a drink and make a cum sandwich. Cream in the coffee - all that fetish shit that pays well if you look like me. These are awkward tricks. Not for big parties.

I have no doubt you've done all that and much, much more, you pervert.

[quote]The thing about Hepburn is that if she was on the make for lesbian hook-ups (totally possible btw!), she'd be meeting dozens of young women daily on her movie sets, in the RKO and MGM offices, in their wardrobe departments, in hair and makeup, not to mention through gay friends of her own. She'd hardly need a gas station attendant to help her.

This is the most compelling argument against Bowers' stories. Women typically do not enlist the services of professional procurers to help them find sexual partners. (I'm not talking about matchmaking services but pimps like Bowers claims to have been.) Hepburn could have helped herself to any number of available women as R443 says.

Whenever Turner Classic Movies is on in the next room I really notice the deep voices of certain actresses much more (than when seeing them). Margaret Lindsay and Barbara Stanwyck, particularly. It's funny how a lot of the purported lesbian or bi actresses had such unusually deep voices. Tallulah, as well. Hepburn, not so much.

According to Reynolds, Berle would throw fancy parties and hire Scotty Bowers, a Hollywood party boy known for being well-endowed, to walk around with his man-parts on a silver tray surrounded by parsley and hors d'oeuvres. Berle would then laugh as guests casually picked at Bowers snack tray before finally realizing "they weren't holding an actual sausage."

Actually it was in Reynolds autobiography that she mentioned Bowers, BEFORE she was senile

According to film critic Peter Debruge, writing for Variety in 2006: "Everyone knows Scotty. After all, he’s been serving drinks to the Beverly Hills crowd for almost 60 years, working a different party almost every night of the week, sometimes two a day."[13] Gore Vidal, maintaining Bowers' account was accurate,[17] spoke at the official launch of the memoir; it was Vidal's last public appearance.[18] Robert Benevides, the partner of actor Raymond Burr, said to the LA Weekly: "Scotty just liked to make people happy."[2] Film director John Schlesinger and investigative reporter and novelist Dominick Dunne also backed Bowers’ claims.[19]

Joan Allemand, a former arts director of the Beverly Hills Unified School District, who knew Bowers for more than 20 years and introduced him to his subsequent co-writer, Lionel Friedberg, said: "Scotty doesn't lie about anything. He's a poor kid from a farm in Illinois, and when he got here, his two assets were his big penis and charming personality. That's what he used to feed his family."[2] Sir Cecil Beaton wrote of his sexual encounters with Bowers in his published diary of the 1960s,[20] while Debbie Reynolds wrote in her memoirs of Milton Berle employing him for a party prank.[21] Bowers appears in John Rechy's 1963 roman-à-clef City of Night as the character 'Smitty'.[22] A profile in the New York Social Diary stated: "Clients all agreed that he was 'very good' at what he did, and very agreeable... And very discreet. He did not discriminate. He even had one regular longtime client... who had no arms and no legs... The Scotty I knew was a guy who always seemed to be enjoying his life working morning, noon and night, with never a gripe; always with a smile to greet you, and never with an axe to grind. After a lifetime in Hollywood, that's a remarkable feat and its own kind of Zen."[23]

It has been suggested that Bowers' claims were dismissed by some not simply because "virtually everyone he talks about has died", but because "many in the industry still cling to a prudish, homophobic and manufactured version of the past."[24] According to Matt Tyrnauer, director of a documentary on Bowers, it is merely proof of "the enduring power of the (Hollywood) myth machine... created there—by outsiders, Jewish immigrants themselves who were furriers and glove manufacturers projecting a lie of a made-up image of white Americanism... I think there are a lot of people who want to cling to that."[24]

Author William J. Mann, who interviewed Bowers for a biography of Katharine Hepburn, said, "I found him forthright and honest and not interested in personal fame or gain." At that time he turned down Mann's offer to write about him or introduce him to a literary agent.[25] Author and journalist Tim Teeman, who also interviewed Bowers, wrote that "as candid as Bowers was, he was also respectful, and when it came to sex and sexuality utterly without shame and judgment."[25]

Great way to live your life. No doubt! Love that she said she liked to have time for doing nothing.

I trust William Mann and Tim Teeman - thanks for posting this. I am now convinced Bowers was telling the truth....

Here's a fact that cannot be disputed: Bowers could not prove anything he said about all these A-list stars he claimed to have fucked and procured for. Not one iota of proof. He supposedly was adored by all the A-list stars; they had sex with him and partied with him and he procured hot homo sex for them. But not one picture exists of him with ANY of the A-lists stars. Nary a one. There are no phone records, no documents of any kind. to prove that he knew any of them. Anything he said you have to take on faith. I guess some people do. Some people will believe anything.

"Scotty doesn't lie about anything." What a statement to make about ANYBODY. Somebody who never lies. Anybody who believes there is a person on this earth who "never lies" has more than a few screws loose.

William J. Mann is full of shit. John Curtis, the author of the exhaustively research "Spencer Tracy: The Biography" features a chapter on the biographies of Katherine Hepburn. He thoroughly discredits Mann. And Scotty Bowers, too.

And if Scotty Bowers actually did attend "fancy parties" where he would "walk around with his man-parts on a silver tray surrounded by parsley and hors d'oeuvres" then he sounds like he was one of the scummiest, skankiest, pieces of shit imaginable. He sounds like he was crazy, nuts, cuckoo. Someone with that much mental instability is not exactly a credible source of info. And A-list Hollywood stars would want to have anything to do with a gas station attendant who did things like THAT? It's not to be believed.

I never heard anywhere that Film director John Schlesinger and Dominick Dunne "backed Bowers’ claims."

Gore Vidal said something like "I've never known Scotty to lie" but that a slippery statement. It's not like he actually "vouched" for him. He certainly didn't say "Everything Scotty says is true."

"Actually it was in Reynolds autobiography that she mentioned Bowers, BEFORE she was senile."

She was well into her 70s when her autobiographies were published, so that's definitely an age when people's minds start to go. Actually, the Milton Berle/Scotty Bowers story sounds like something that was made up in order to sell books. It sounds like something out of a bad movie script. And actually it's rather reminiscent of the "popcorn" scene in "Diner", which was actually a good movie. Bur some asshole at a "fancy party" with his dick out on a serving tray? That's not funny, that's disgusting.

Dear, R461, you sound like a very sensible man amongst this flock of gullible ones.

R400, Tracy and Hepburn never lived together. They occupied separate guest houses on Cukors estate. They were never lovers. They were friends and Hepburn more or less took care of him as she did a couple of her brothers- the first very troubled like Tracy who pretty much drank himself to death.

Actually 461, there’s lots of evidence and corroboration from the guys he hooked people up with (and women) as well as mountains of photographs etc. I’ve seen quite a few of them over the decades. You simply do not know a,b, mc of what you’re talking about.

Why should anybody believe anything you say, Charlie?

oy, charlie. Now it all makes sense. Every word out of his mouth is a lie.

Dominick Dunne was a client of Scotty Bowers. That's a little different. He also was in love with Mark Fuhrman!

DD once set fire to a roomful of male prostitutes when he dropped his bottle of poppers on a candle flame. Or was it a crack pipe?

He was a degenerate and a social climbing SNOB!

(see charlie)

We did the full hatchet job on Dominick Dunne last year.

They don’t have to- but I’m right. I’m telling you things I know first hand. And I could tell you a lot more. It’s funny- when I was young and meeting all these characters I never knew about Hepburn (or Garbo). But I knew about the guys. I was at a lot of gatherings etc where guys like Rock Hudson would carry on- and others who would talk about Scotty (I never met him)- they all loved him.

The Mann Hepburn bio, Liz Smith’s late life revelations and Bowers book convinced me of Hepburn’s life long ruse. Lord knows everyone in LA knew the truth about Tracy in the late 70s. It was pretty hard to imagine him as Hepburns lover.

You know Scotty did no wrong- he was not a pimp. He himself charged for sex but did not collect from anyone. And what was or is wrong with him fixing closeted people up with sexual partners? Tell me.

I don’t remember the Laughton story in his book- but it was common knowledge he was gay- among others- John G, Danny K. Olivier (bi), Cliff, Burr, Grant (bi), Brando (bi), Dean (gay). Those that I knew of first hand later include Travolta, T Dalton, Alec Guinness, Prince Charles’ valet (lol). I find it extraordinary that big stars still remain closeted for the most guys I have no idea about the current crowd that DL quells over.

That poster who keeps claiming that there are no photos of Scotty and his clients is lying through his teeth, if they have any. There are plenty of photos and the thing they have in common is that everyone is smiling as big as can be.

What posters are saying is that there are no photos or other evidence with A list stars. We have no doubt he pimped for a lot of B, C and D list Hollywood.

And I don't doubt that Hepburn was bi. What I deny is that she needed Scotty to facilitate her sex life.

Tracy is admittedly more complicated. He had a long marriage and children and apparently sex with Ingrid Bergman and Loretta Young, among other women, so he didn't really need Hepburn in his life at all. Thus I believe there must have been a genuine love/sexual affair there but I can also believe he had sex with men and it's imaginable that he was so fucked up he needed the anonymity Bowers could provide.

As far as the Laughton story, does anyone know anyone with that kind of a fetish (eating shit)?? Is this really a thing and how do partakers survive the diseases that would be inherent in the practice? And where's the joy? I'm serious.

[quote] it was common knowledge he was gay- among others- Olivier (bi

Not true, R470.

[quote] Those that I knew of first hand later include Travolta, T Dalton, Alec Guinness,

Do you claim to know Travolta and Guinness?

R459 Yeah, but most of can't afford that lifestyle of doing nothing.

R470 James Dean wasn't gay. Wtf? Bi at best.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Especially when we are talking about activities that would have ruined people's lives.

r472, you are so naive I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. Or just scream troll.

R470 who is John G? John Garfield? That's hard to believe.

Nothing really new here. She wasn't a recluse. She had affairs. People saw her all the time. She liked the anonymity of NYC. Yawn.

That documentary makes the point that Garbo moved to New York because of its size. She didn't need to stay in Hollywood if she wasn't going to make films and going back to Sweden was out. That was because it was too small and the last time she went back she was swamped by the public.

R479 Johnny Gielgud was a marvellous speaker of verse, was considered to play opposite Norma Shearer in 'R and J' and was an enthusiastic homosexualist.

[quote][R470] who is John G? John Garfield? That's hard to believe.

Gielgud you dolt.

Well there is more than one John G. I know Gielgud. I saw Arthur.

[quote] I saw Arthur.

You saw Sir John slumming it.

(I told you Brando was going insane)

Gielgud was arrested in a London men's room in the early 50s and charged with a moral offense. He considered his career ruined and over and canceled all his future appearances. His friends weren't having it and a year later insisted he take another part onstage. Against his better judgment, he took one and on opening night he had to be literally pushed onstage, expecting boos and jeers. He was instead greeted with cheers and a standing ovation that went on for over a minute.

[quote] and a year later

No, it wasn't that long.

Ralph Richardson ensured that he appeared on stage at exactly the same time as Gielgud so that any applause for his entrance was shared with Gielgud.

Shall I come in and wash your dick for you, you little shit?

^. Slumming it.

Charlie is a kook. He saw everything "first hand?" HAHAHA! My sides!

[quote] That poster who keeps claiming that there are no photos of Scotty and his clients is lying through his teeth, if they have any.

There NO photos of him with any of the STARS he claimed to have fucked or procured for, you retarded fuck. Not one. And he claimed that he was beloved by them. You might think that at one of the "fancy parties" he attended where pulled out his inchworm and displayed it on a serving tray to the amusement of all there someone would have taken a photo of good old Scotty with Milton Berle or Debbie Reynolds or Rock Hudson or Lana Turner or Ava Gardner or Tyrone Power or Spencer Tracy or Katherine Hepburn. But there are no photos. You're a liar.

It was bigger than a worm. I swear. Lana told me so.

R490, I knew each of those 3, not well, but well enough to know their .preferences. Everything I’ve posted on this thread is true. My early posts about living across the street from Garbo (River House) to Bowers and Liz Smith. I’m really pretty normal actually- tapping away on this silly thread before reading myself to sleep (Kindred by Rebecca Sykes).

[quote] Everything I’ve posted on this thread is true.

Anybody who says that "everything" he says is "true" is in all probability a liar. Sorry, Charlie.

charlie believes the barbara streizand is the world's greatest singer AND a philanthropist!

he's not familiar with truth

David Selznick had an affair with Laura Harding while she was hanging snout with Hepburn. She groused about being a hanger on and Selznick urged her to strike out on her own. David Thomson, the authorized Selznick biographer, thought he might have been more interested in Harding’s financial connections in New York. She was related to the Smith,Barney financial group. Selznick need money to start independent production.

Laura Harding's wiki entry makes her sound like a big lezzie.

What the hell does hanging snout means?

R491, how would there be photographs?

There are few photographs of any private Hollywood parties because it was considered "off-duty" time.

Also, if someone took a picture of anything untoward, it could easiliy become public knowledge. (The photographer and whoever developed the film each could go public.)

This is why you do not see photos of Raymond Burr, George Cukor, John Gielgud, etc. getting affectionate with other men.

By this logic, how do we know that Hepburn and Tracy were lovers? There are no photos of them in private life that indicate a sexual relationship.

Because there are very few photos of that era that document the romantic lives of stars from that period. Even those famous Grant/Scott photos are from a magazine article. There are not the same volume of "personal" photos that we are used to later.

R494, glad to know that I’m a liar. Without your insight I would never have known.

I wonder why it upsets so many (mostly repeat posters) that Garbo way gay, Bowers arranged sex for Hepburn and that her Tracy ruse was a public screen. Is there something salacious and wrong with being gay and having sex, arranged or otherwise. I don’t think many younger posters really know how detrimental to a career being out actually was. Scotty’s ace was discretion- any career.

R500 "Bowers arranged sex for Hepburn" So he arranged sex for her with more than 150 women, yet we never ever heard from any of these prostitutes? Not a single one ever admitted to someone that she had sex with Katherine Hepburn. Not even a drunken slip

I am sure a few of them did admit to someone that they had sex with Katherine Hepburn. That is how these rumors got started.

I don't think it's crazy to think that Hepburn wouldn't have needed someone to procure women for her. She was handsome and rich and powerful, she probably could have bagged nearly any lesbian she was within 100 yards of.

R502 What rumors? There are zero rumors about her sleeping with random prostitutes. The first rumor about we heard and the only rumor, was from Bowers who said he hooked her with over 150 women.

R464 She literally said she heard him drop dead in the kitchen. They lived at 9191 St. Ives Drive. Johnny Grant the "mayor of Hollywood" said Hepburn furiously chewed him out him one time when he drank with Tracy, who fell off the wagon that night. Are you saying these people were just casual friends? '

More people ought to read James Curtis's biography of Tracy. Unfortunately it seems like everyone here has only read Mann, who wrote a book to try to prove a point. And even he talks about some of Hepburn's early affairs with men. People here seem to tend towards reading inflammatory biographies of Hollywood figures. If you study Hollywood, you can spot the innacuracies in many of these books. And Scotty Bowers' writing probably has grains of truth and a lot of innacuracies, if not fabrications.

Clearly, it is in William Mann's best interests to vouch for Bowers as they both spouted the same lies.

And, as for Gore Vidal. I can easily imagine him chortling to himself in his final addle-brained days how amusing it would be to declare everyone in Hollywood was gay and insatiable and could only be helped by gas station attendant Scotty Bowers in their sexual thirsts. And yet, Gore never wrote about his own sex drives.

Gore Vidal had alcoholic dementia in his last years.

R505, why do you assume that people have only read Mann? Curtis also has his readers.

Curtis is exhaustive and well-documented. But I cannot say that it is an insightful book. I learned a lot about what happened in Tracy's life, but not much about who he was.

Mann is more psychologically acute, which is why his book is more of a favorite. It presents a portrait of Hepburn as a person. Is it who she really was? I cannot say. But he is more persuasive than the exhaustive Curtis because he makes Hepburn seem real.

Why are some of you so angry about Hepburn being fixed up with women? Liz Smith confirmed this as well- I’m going to see if I can find the interview which might be on YouTube. Liz was a pretty good friend of Kate’s FYI and never would reveal what she knew before Kate died.

Actually, it’s pretty easy to confirm. Just Google. Remember, Garbo, Hepburn and Tracy were all sexually active in a time when homosexuality was considered just a little less than murder. Careers ended- in all professions and jobs if acknowledged. Read the history of homosexuality in 20th C America, Stonewall, The Other Dide of Silence to get it right. Blackmail by local law was a cottage industry and a good way to pad your income if you were a cop or judge.

Bottom line folks is that they did nothing wrong and neither did Scotty Bowers. And Hepburn spun a whopper about her relationship with Tracy. Her good friend Irene Selznick almost ended their friendship when Hepburn played up the Tracy thing toward the end of her life. Hepburn was thinking of her legacy and she wanted her real self concealed.

[quote] I am sure a few of them did admit to someone that they had sex with Katherine Hepburn. That is how these rumors got started.

You're "sure?" How the hell could you be "sure" about anything? And "that's how these rumors got started?" Actually, the rumors got started because there's always gossip about Hollywood stars. You are truly a delusional twat.

[quote] Why are some of you so angry about Hepburn being fixed up with women?

Maybe because it's a lie? There is no evidence anywhere that confirms Hepburn sought out sex with female prostitutes. And she supposedly went to Scotty Bowers, a gas station attendant, to fix her up with lesbo hookers? That's really a hilarious notion.

[quote] Why are some of you so angry about Hepburn being fixed up with women?

I'm angry that presumably sensible eldergays believe gossip without a SHRED of evidence.

Do you believe in lies propounded by politicians and the advertising industry.

[quote] Actually, it’s pretty easy to confirm. Just Google.

You think everything you read on Google is the gospel truth?! Charlie, you are truly a demented troll.

R511, I am sorry I did not put a winky emoji so that you could catch the joke.

But seriously, if do not know about Scotty Bowers. But a woman who is close with a group of lesbians, builds a career on butch style and behavior, never marries, and spends the last decades of her life living with a woman....if guess I do not need a smoking gun to surmise that she is probably gay or at least bisexual.

I am old enough to remember people saying the same things about Rock Hudson and Liberace. How dare you believe rumors without any evidence?

So I just roll my eyes.

Go away...all of you. I want to be left alone.

[quote]charlie believes the barbara streizand is the world's greatest singer AND a philanthropist!

My name is BarBRA, whore, and I'm not going to "Oh, dear!" you because it is beneath me!

R483 - in a thread on Greta Garbo, "John G." should only mean "John Gilbert".

John Gilbert was so plain and ordinary.

It was ridiculous that she chose him over the nubile, luscious Larry.

Greta Garbo did do a TV guest spot with Dean Martin and or Perry Como? It's on YouTube.

I think some of you need to read Bowers book, man’s book which is annotated, and Liz Smith’s archived columns.

As for Streisand: yes musicians composers and singers all over the world consider her one of the best vocalists of her time and she most certainly she is one of the most generous philanthropists in show business. Fact.

I want to know why it bothers some of you that Hepburn was a lesbian? And what is so bad about being set up with women? These were not street walkers you know. Most of you would give your left ball for the guys he knew who he set up. I knew one of them quite well (since about ‘76). He is now deceased.

That's Tallulah Bankhead r520

Scotty Bowers was crazy. A hoarder. And he believed child molestation was....not bad at all. He told Matt Tyrnauer that he was "molested by a neighbor as a child, but waves away any concern: “There’s nothing wrong with that, baby!”)." I wonder how many children HE molested?

Liz Smith was a gossip columnist. Yeah, gossip columnists are SO known for telling the undisputed truth (snort).

Actually, R523, you don’t know a,b, c about Liz Smith- or pretty much anything on this thread. My guess is that I knew about Scotty and his antics, as did many of my friends in LA and NYC, before you were born.

Charlie, you are full of shit. Why should anybody believe you? You're just a troll on Datalounge.

I might add that Scotty’s past which included pimping out for priests and surviving Iwo Jima pretty much informed his approach to life, including stuffing his feelings (hoarding) when necessary. Life can be pretty screwy. None of this means his story is not true. I was absolutely stunned when I first read some of his book. All the stuff I knew and know about some of the closeted famous etc as a kid that I kept quiet about- suddenly out there. And yes, there’s more. Lots more- Scotty did not talk about anyone still alive in his book. Keep in mind her did not just hook up gay men and women. He hooked up whatever would make someone happy-hetero, homo, bi. He himself was bisexual. R525, you don’t have to believe me if it hurts you somehow. Again, there is not a thing wrong with what Scotty, Garbo or Hepburn did in their sex lives- somehow I think it offends you- you don’t want to believe any of it.

[quote] you don’t have to believe me if it hurts you somehow. Again, there is not a thing wrong with what Scotty, Garbo or Hepburn did in their sex lives- somehow I think it offends you- you don’t want to believe any of it.

Charlie, you poor thing....nobody is "hurt" by all your bullshit. But it's obviously you're a troll, and trolls are annoying. You really need to shut the fuck up.

Do these luxury apartments have double pane windows? The building was right next to a very busy 6 lane freeway. She was on the 6th floor, that's not high enough to escape all the traffic noise or the bad exhaust fumes.

charlie has gone demented. he always was a fabulist. aka - a liar. now he is nonsensical. for 40 years charlie sold knock off scarves, key chains and gum from his cart outside grand central station.

he probably did see warhol and jfk jr. maybe even jackie o'whore. charlie came from a good family. he once was fucked by liz smith! unfortunately he wasted most of his hard earned cart money on barbara streizand tickets and memorabilia. charlie owns every copy of her most terrible recordings. it's a sad life. he is over 75 or close to 80 now. barbara and charlie are both senile.

R527 You STFU. The only troll here is you.

And, as charlie said, nothing wrong with Kate and Garbo being lesbians. They lived their truth in a very hard time. I admire these women!

R509 "Why are some of you so angry about Hepburn being fixed up with women?" No one is angry, some of just don't believe that she was set up with over 150 prostitutes and not a single one of them ever came out with a story that she fucked Katherine Hepburn.

It's also not how women arrange things. A woman from Hepburn's background using prostitutes instead of just meeting like-minded gals at the tennis tournament or golf course strikes me as improbable.

(...not unless you eat 100 vaginas everyday!)

But i never read that GG had a voracious sex appetite.

That 150 number is over a lifetime with repeats most likely. It was discrete and it was safe. Not too hard to figure out. You’ve got to realize it was not 2021, or even 1980. It was post WW2.

Thanks for the defense R530. I’m used to it. I know who I am and I’m pretty confident of my sources and own experience.

R534 There were no repeats. He said over 150 women. Means different women

James Dean wasn't gay. Wtf? Bi at best.

Elizabeth Taylor let slip Dean was gay

R536 Those old people called bisexuals gay as well.

Hepburn once said in an interview that she'd lived like a man, done exactly what she'd wanted to without a thought for anyone else and was proud of it. You people are terribly naive if you think just cause she came from a good family that it wasn't beneath her to use the services of a call girl. And some of you are projecting your own snobbery onto old Hollywood by suggesting these famous people wouldn't hang around a lowly gas attendant. Most of old Hollywood came from nothing. Even Vidal the old snob loved rough trade.

[quote]Hepburn once said in an interview that she'd lived like a man, done exactly what she'd wanted to without a thought for anyone else and was proud of it.

She stated it as fact, r538, not as something she was proud of.

Didn't she also say it was out of selfishness? That being a mother was the most important role of all.

She said you can't have it all.

I hope they show the piss scenes.

[quote]Didn't she also say it was out of selfishness?

Yes.

She was named after Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg.

Hepburn said she never regretted not having children because she knew she would've been a terrible mother. She was too selfish, and career-focused and she knew it. Looking at the train wreck children of some of Hepburn's contemporaries (Davis and Crawford come to mind), Kate was very smart about that.

Do you really consider Christina a train wreck, r545? How so?

[quote]Greta Garbo did do a TV guest spot with Dean Martin and or Perry Como? It's on YouTube.

Bless your heart R520

She was also a guest host on The Gong Show for a week.

When Garbo was the mystery guest on What's My Line her attempt at a Brooklyn accent was terrible.

[quote] And, as charlie said, nothing wrong with Kate and Garbo being lesbians. They lived their truth in a very hard time. I admire these women!

If you believe the fantasies of "Charlie", who says everything Scotty Bowers said was true, then you are dumb as a box of hair.

She wore fabulous costumes in Mata Hari.

OK, Mr. Adrian, but you know I never really like any of the clothes you dressed me in.

But Greta, no one wants to see you wearing cardigans and dungarees.

R536 Liz Taylor said the exact opposite when she was questioned about Dean’s sexuality in 1997.

Greta seems disinterested in José Ramón Gil Samaniego aka 'Ramon Novarro'.

I guess he was more interested in cock.

Mata Hari came from the Dutch East Indies so Adrian's costume incorporates native motifs.

Garbo's best stuff was the early, silent stuff where she looked good even when wearing cardigans and dungarees.

But she couldn't speak dialogue or behave like a normal person.

There are scenes in 'Karenina' where she resembles Harpo Marx doing silent-movie gestures taught to her at the Göteborg School of Dramatic Art.

Silent Movie Stars should stay in silent movies.

GG loved the tv series Eight is Enough, and was particularly fond of Laurie Walters - the sister who played an actress.

I thought she loved Cheers. Norm made her giggle.

According to a Garbo website:

Much of her time in the final years Garbo spent with the television set, and her tastes were comically unpredictable. To Ray Daum another friend she confessed , “I watch the dreck. Schmutz. If a program is advertised as experimental, I never turn it on.”

She was especially fond of Matlock, General Hospital , and The Hollywood Squares . In one of Sam Green and Garbo conversations he asked about a color television set and she said, “No. No color…I just don't care, I can't stand the bother of buying a new one. As long as it works, there it stays. I have one in the big room. That's black and white too…. No change, no. I can't bother with those things. As long as it works.” Greens replied , “How easily satisfied you are.”

Garbo Laughs!

The delightful "Garbo Talks" is free on Tubi.

^ Is it frivolous or disrespectful to Garbo?

Does the person pretending to Garbo show their face?

The 'person' playing Garbo is Betty Comden and everyone on DL knows what she looks like.

^ Oh yes, Basya Cohen, married to Siegfried Schutzman.

The audience only sees the merest glimpses of Betty's face as Garbo near the end. Most shots of GG are just from the back or at a great distance and always with a slouchy hat. It's cleverly done.

The movie is fun if not brilliant. Worth a watch for a few cameos by NY stage actors like Dorothy Loudon and Harvey Fierstein.