Succession Season 3: Part 4

Part 3:

The New Yorker's profile of Jeremy Strong:

First prediction for next season, Gregory Hirsh marries Comfry.

R3 the idea of Greg reciting vows...oy.

Somebody claimed on the last thread that the fact this show is a critical darling and that Jeremy Strong won the Emmy means he's now on the Hollywood A-list and will be given oscar-worthy roles.

I don't think that logically follows. That certainly didn't happen for Jon Hamm, who was on a show even more critically loved and who also won the Emmy for it. Plus Hamm is much more photogenic than Strong, and much more liked in Hollywood.

Of the major guests this season, Sanaa Lathan had nothing to do, Alexander Skarsgard was meh but Adrien Brody made the most of his part, and even that was underwritten. I at least had a sense of his power and danger and charm.

Be nice, you cunty gays!

Celebrity PR damage control is so entertaining

Everybody's talking about what a douche Jeremy Strong is because of that article.

Will the backlash to the profile coax Daniel Day-Lewis down from Mount Olympus to defend Jeremy?

Alexander Skarsgard is horrible as an eccentric Elon Musk type. Adrian Brody would have been much better in that role. The roles should have been switched. But I would watch a series based on Adrian Brody's character, starring Brody, of course. He made me want to know more about him. And I loved the house.

[quote]Alexander Skarsgard was meh

I'm kind of worried that his character, Mattson, is going to push for a merger and that we'll have to deal with him in the next season.

Logan is fucking over everyone in senior management at Waystar, including Roman and Siobhan, by agreeing to a merger of equals.

I never thought I would be turned OFF by ASkars until this part.

They should have given those guest stars more to do along with Connor, Marcia and Stewie. The first few episodes all bled together because they were so repetitive. The siblings are not as interesting as the actors or writers think they are. The hangers on around billionaires are far more interesting because they have far more to lose.

It’s somewhat implausible that the Strong profile is unfairly one-sided when the author interviewed people from all over the last two decades of his life and his current (for now!) coworkers went on the record to say how irritating he is to work with.

The siblings may not be too interesting on their own (although that makes me realize we never see Shiv or Roman in scenes alone the way we have seen Kendall…hmmm) but I find the siblings’ dynamics with the second- and third-string people in family fascinating: Shiv and Tom, Roman and Gerri, etc

Also, r16, The Guardian profile jibes with the New Yorker. The author was kinder but Strong's words speak for themselves.

It is totally clear that Strong is a complete dick. But to be fair, when you read about how he grew up, where he came from, that he achieved a full ride to Yale, he has truly surpassed what most struggling actors ever receive, which is acceptance to the A-list club. It is pretty remarkable. I can’t decide if I think he’s highly intelligent or merely a poser who is surprisingly dumb. Maybe it’s both? But he plays Kendall as himself. I think he’s a more obscure variation on the narcissism spectrum. I was a visual artist for much of my life, I’ve spent half my lifetime around artists, and I will tell you there *is* such a thing as too work-focused.

Those kinds of artists are the worst to be around, they have zero EQ, everything is about their process and a fuck you to everyone around them, all in the name of “the way I work”. This type is so focused on their craft that the work is indeed a superior level of quality — they are true technicians of their craft. But just because someone is technically gifted doesn’t necessarily mean they’re fun to work with, in fact it’s usually the opposite and they are horrendous about honoring even basic sociological norms. They refuse to bow to the culture to the point that it offends other people. Strong is just the mirror reflection of MAGATS.

Interesting post, r19. What's confusing about Strong is that so many celebrities are willing to speak on his behalf. That article said that Matthew McConaughey picked up the phone and called the author to talk about Strong. Why? It's hard to understand.

Next season, Shiv, Tom, Greg and Comfry are going to be one big ol' All About Eve. With Roman giving us his best George Sanders.

My idea of hell would be locked in a room with Jeremy Strong and Zachary Quinto as they discuss their "craft."

[quote] My idea of hell would be locked in a room with Jeremy Strong and Zachary Quinto as they discuss their "craft."

Or Jeremy Strong and Phylicia Rashad. "Thea'tah is..."

I was hoping for more Adrian Brody this season.

R13, I think it’s being made quite obvious now what will happen on Sunday night:

Logan will agree to a “merger of equals” and team up with Tom, Geri, Marcia and Lady Caroline. Tom will shiv Shiv and Geri will betray her little slimepuppy. Roman and Shiv will be totally frozen out at Waystar. Season 4 will probably open with Roman in LA producing soft core porn and Shiv will be consulting Connor on his presidential campaign. And Kendall will turn himself into the authorities re the waiter’s death, pointing to the cover-up managed by daddy. All hell will break loose in Season 4 which I think will be the final season.

Logan has plausible deniability about the coverup of the waiter’s death, though, doesn’t he?

The Guardian article.

[quote]Unlike Cox, Strong stays serious: “Yes, I heard about that. And of course that means you feel a greater sense of responsibility.” There is a pleasingly apt difference between interviewing the father and the son: where Cox (like Logan) was all devil-may-care swearing, Strong (like Kendall) is quiet and intense. My God, he’s intense. When he arrives, I start by making small talk, asking whether it’s nice to be in London, given he studied at Rada as an 18-year-old. But Strong is not one for casual chat. “It is,” he says. “For me, this city is very connected with the mythology of my life. I slept outside the National Theatre to see Ian Holm play Lear in a Richard Eyre production. It was one of those revelatory things that changed my life and I thought, ‘That’s what I want to do.’ So it feels like a talismanic place.”

r27 that quote is so deserving of a "shut up, you fucking twat" from anyone who had to hear it.

I even miss Frank and Karl.

[quote] That article said that Matthew McConaughey picked up the phone and called the author to talk about Strong. Why? It's hard to understand.

Someone went into this in the last thread. It’s a back scratching club at the top and no one who isn’t Sean Penn actively insults their peers.

Prior to this season, Succession was the hottest show in 5 years and Strong’s performance just won an Emmy. They are associating themselves with the show by talking about what a wacky intense guy he is.

Call it greatness by association.

Also, r30. Highly probable Jessica Chastain was asked to defend him by her agent either because they also represent Strong or as a quid pro quo. And the fact that only A-listers, not crew, classmates or co-workers from his off-Broadway and off-off-Broadway work, are willing to lavish that kind of praise should, in and of itself, be suspicious.

Do you think Chastain got some good dick from him?

[quote]That certainly didn't happen for Jon Hamm, who was on a show even more critically loved and who also won the Emmy for it. Plus Hamm is much more photogenic than Strong, and much more liked in Hollywood.

That was me, r5. And Strong may be a dick, but you can't compare his talent as an actor with Jon Hamm's. Not even in the same orbit. Hamm, like Brad Pitt, is a star first and foremost because of his looks. Kevin Spacey is a good example of someone who continued to get plum roles despite disrupting the peace on sets because of his undeniable talent.

Kendall started off as the lead and heart of the show. If they kill him off, it won't be the same. I think this is why they introduced Skarsgard's character. Whatever you think about him, he's leading man material as opposed to the children who are boring by themselves..

Let’s hope Strong doesn’t get a second Emmy for this part, or I fear he’ll pull a second Sally Field Oscar win speech.

The Emmy likely reinforced his commitment to his process. He must've distanced himself further from his castmates when shooting this season.

I don't know if anyone felt it but he seems to have been very eager to, and went to great lengths, to impress the profiler. Flying with him from location to his house in Denmark? They must've had a lot riding on this piece.

John Hamm has something that Strong doesn’t….

In the season finale, the Cater Waiter turns out to be alive and secretly working for Sandy and Stewie. He pulls out a gun at the wedding and mows down all the Roys, hops on a plane and flies off to join the Pierces in their funny little house.

Jon Hamm as Don Draper was more talented than Jeremy as Kendall, he was one of the all-time-great lead performances. I don’t know why Hamm hasn’t been able to replicate it (as slimy as Matthew Weiner is reputed to be, he was able to pull great performances out of both Hamm and January Jones) but don’t mistake his beauty for the source of his success.

Strong was so convincing as Kendall, because that's perhaps the essence of who he is.

[quote]And Kendall will turn himself into the authorities re the waiter’s death

Seems like he'll be too dead to do that.

I was hoping that Succession was going to be another must-see series like The Sopranos, but with such a flatlining third season, it's clearly not.

I took a class called 'acting for the camera' when I was young, and the instructor, who had been a longtime TV director, said that anyone who wants to act for TV should become very self-aware about their appearance and mannerisms and personality, and go for roles that are similar to who they are, because unlike with film and theatre, most TV productions have hardly any time dedicated to rehearsal and so almost all TV casting agents cast based on who people really seem to be. Since then, I've generally assumed most actors who play TV characters share a lot of traits with their characters—especially mannerisms, but also in many cases personality/character.

[quote]Jon Hamm as Don Draper was more talented than Jeremy as Kendall, he was one of the all-time-great lead performances.

Umm ... no. Jon Hamm is not a good actor, but was perfect for the part. That's all.

R43, see r42.

R42, the term “casting agent” is incorrect, it should be “casting director.”

Not sure if I'd want to continue watching if Kendall is killed off. A whole season of Logan being even more grumpy and snarling at everyone because of the loss of his son is not appealing to me.

Not the same for sure, but on The Office, after Steve Carrell left, the show lost its center and went downhill fast.

In season 4, Daniel Day-Lewis will turn up as Logan's missing son, then kill Kendall.

[quote] [R42], the term “casting agent” is incorrect, it should be “casting director.”

No one cares.

"People judge Shiv more than they judge Kendall or Roman or Logan..."

Yeah, for being fat.

I have to hand it to Sarah Snook: her American accent is very authentic when playing Shiv. I often find Aussie actors are better at American accents (Rachel Griffiths is another one that comes to mind).

British actors tend to overdo the “flatness” when doing an American accent. See: Kate Winslet

Also Yvonne Strahovski, r51.

Daiman Lewis nailed the Queens accent in Billions. Even I can't do it.

R51, how hard can it be when most of her dialogue consists of ummms, uh huh's and well's?

You forgot yeah, R55.

R55, don’t forget her Um, yeah?.

Conner’s proposal to whatshername, she wasn’t exactly thrilled. I’m not sure why she didn’t immediately jump on it.

Add Peter Riegart to the list of guest stars whose story didn’t go anywhere.

R58 Connor is a boring idiot who wants to run for POTUS. While I would've said yes, I can understand her hesitation

Lady Caroline’s fiancé, through the whole episode I was trying to remember who the actor was. I knew he was someone I’d seen in a few shows and that we talked about him here but I couldn’t place him until I saw the credits. All I can say is that he didn’t sound like Pip Torrens at all. Usually he talks in a deep dry voice and very slowly.

Willa doesn't want to marry Connor but didn't want to embarrass him in such a public setting. If they marry, she will never get back to NYC and writing plays. She's not really happy being in New Mexico. Remember the line about Starbucks being a hour or so away?

Also, her past will definitely come out now. Isn't she a hooker/escort? Didn't they meet through some sketchy sex website?

For a hot minute I thought that was Tuc Watkins playing Caroline's fiance.

How many times have we seen Kendall try to make a deal, humiliate himself, act suicidal, smile sweetly while being vulnerable in front of another character then do drugs?

It’s getting old.

What kind of name is Comfrey?

Kendall had his father beat at the end of season 1. Kendall would be CEO and the investor group led by Sandy Furness would have a controlling interest in Waystar Royco if that car hadn't gone into the river.

What will you people have to talk about after the finale is finished and discussion done and you have to wait the better part of a year for next season?

If Big can die, it’s time for Logan to croak. Look at the shape he’s in compared to Big. I doubt Logan could even mount a Peloton on his own.

A few episodes ago Willa mentioned she was writing a play based on the Roy family. Maybe Roman will produce a film version.

Willa is a prostitute, now a kept woman, and she doesn't want to marry Connor because she doesn't really want anything to do with him. She is still with him because he is supporting her and underwriting her artistic ambitions. But I thought the last episode was meant to show us that she finally has been won over at least in a small degree because she barked at someone to leave Connor alone, which showed at least a tiny protective feeling, which is a kind of affection.

I think that was more performative, not done out of affection but more to convince him she was being affectionate/protective. I don’t understand her reluctance to accept his proposal though. As a former sex worker, she should have her eye on the main chance. Unless she’s worried that his political career would expose her. Just because Melania was okay with it doesn’t mean anyone else would be. Or maybe she really thinks she has a future writing for Broadway and doesn’t need Connor’s support. That doesn’t make sense either.

I just love all the silly plot and character motivation assumptions here. The show writers must be very amused (if they have the time to read this drivel.) Well at least they must be satisfied that so many people care about this show.

The people who think Kendall hasn’t drowned, that he’s deliberately trying to experience the waiter’s last moments before he goes public that he was the driver (hinted at with the tabloid reference and Logan’s blackmail): how does this bring Logan down? I know Logan’s security guy did something after the accident but I forget. So even though we know Logan covered it up, seems like he could still lie his way out of it and say Kendall is on drugs.

So maybe Kendall coming clean—after all the waiter did grab the steering wheel which caused the car to go off the bridge—just removes the ability for Logan to blackmail Ken to keep him close.

The security guy found Kendall’s hotel key.

I love Kendall and want his character and Jeremy Strong to stay in this show, but I honestly do not see how anyone can believe that Kendall is meant to be alive after this. The closing music as a requiem and the lingering upward shot was clearly meant to convey a death. Emily Vanderwerff at Vox seems to think that it would be better if Kendall is on the path to accepting himself by coming clean about his role in the waiter's death, that he's "testing out his dad's theory", but I don't think Jesse Armstrong is writing about characters who are on a redemption arc. If that were the case, we would have seen it this season. I think this show is a tragedy, even with all the dark comedy leanings.

I think black comedy is the only format through which a contemporary audience would accept a (non-genre) tragedy.

Unfortunately the show has nowhere to go but down after this last, exceptional episode. It will be painful to watch now.

My guess is that even if Kendall means to kill himself, he'll fail at this like he fails at everything. He's still Kendall after all.

The problem is that there's nowhere to go with this character. Even an attempt at redemption would blow up in his face now. He can't be brought back into the fold, he can't go off and start his own business. If they're smart and he survives, they'll ship him off to a hospital and next season he'll be like the new Conner; a Roy in name in only and not really connected to the family. He can just go live on an island (metaphorical or otherwise) and be a living reminder to Shiv and Roman not to fuck with Daddy.

It does seem like the show has dug itself into a hole by having Kendall fail at his attempt to bring the company down.

I remember how shocked I was at the previous episode that ended with Kendall making his announcement about his father. I was so excited for the next season (this one) to start. It felt like it was going to be a delicious and intriguing story arc and I was rooting for Kendall. I was proud of him.

They really dropped the ball since it went nowhere, with Waystar getting away with it and Kendall once again failing and spiraling downward. I feel cheated by what they set me up for and by not following through with it.

Now we just have Kendall wandering around in a daze, a silly urinary tract infection that was nothing more than a false flag, Tom dwelling on prison, and a fancy wedding.

So far, there has a tiny bit of character development at the expense of one unsatisfying false set up after another that went nowhere.

What's left? 1 or 2 more episodes?? Maybe it all those loose ends will come to some kind of conclusion or make some kind of sense.

[quote] They really dropped the ball since it went nowhere, with Waystar getting away with it and Kendall once again failing and spiraling downward. I feel cheated by what they set me up for and by not following through with it.

I felt the same way, too, R78. They even hinted at the end of S2 that Greg (with the folder of documents) would help Kendall take Logan and Waystar down. Unfortunately, it turns out all of that was nothing but another red-herring. Greg is even more pathetic and worthless this season, and he functions more like a sitcom character designed to make viewers laugh at his silliness.

I think Jesse Armstrong is afraid that if he followed through with everything he built up in S2, it would invite all the comparisons to soaps rather than the prestige television he wants Succession to be. So he backs away from it all despite toying the viewers by using soap's plot mechanics and tropes.

I think they just don't follow through on bringing Logan down because that's how the world actually works. With all the evidence in the world, they still can't put the Trumps in jail, and the treasonists from January 6th are getting slaps on the wrist. The corrupt just stay in power.

I guess R80, you make a good point, but the reality of Trump is so depressing that I don't want to watch the same thing play out on a TV show that I've become invested in. If Trump doesn't get his comeuppance, at least it would have been satisfying to see Logan get his and for Kendall to come out victorious.

i think you're looking for West Wing reruns, R81.

Believe it or not, R82, I've seen even 1 episode of the West Wing. However, I loved VEEP.

[quote] Isn't she a hooker/escort?

She could reinvent herself as a lady architect who speaks five languages.

I think Jeremy Strong playing his role in all seriousness gives the show its power. Uhhhhh wh- I mean.... something's gotta break up all that snark, yeah?

R51 Australians work really hard on the American accent. I have a cousin there who's an aspiring actress, it's all about the American market. They're very ambitious.

I see Jeremy's PR people are trying to do damage control by having Sorkin, Chastain, and others vouch for him after that New Yorker piece.

I can't think of two people whose good word about Jeremy Strong matters less to me than Aaron Sorkin and Jessica Chastain.

If someone actually on "Succession" stood up for Strong, it would be very different. Harriet Walter? Hiam Abbess?

Jessica Chastain is on a mission but doesn't understand the more she does this, the more it looks like a PR effort.

[quote]If someone actually on "Succession" stood up for Strong, it would be very different. Harriet Walter? Hiam Abbess?

Even if they do it'll look like a directive from on high because they've waited so long to respond, but I bet PR is still working on a statement from at least one cast member. My guess would be Nicholas Braun because he's on record on Colbert as being grateful to Jeremy Strong for inviting him to an event where he got to meet Bill Clinton.

Jeremy Strong must've reacted very badly to the New Yorker article judging by the frantic thrashing by his PR.

Are they currently filming the next season?

^If they are, I bet a crisis meeting with Strong, Culkin, Cox and Armstrong has been held. If they haven't started, they've probably called one over Zoom. Expect a few "clarifications" from those three any day ... except maybe Cox who's a stubborn old codger who doesn't give a fuck.

Here’s the “stubborn old codger who doesn’t give a fuck”.

Too many of you here , are a trip.

R93, no, according to my crew friend Season 4 (which might be its final season) doesn’t start shooting until June.

This pic says it all

R97, Jeremy looks incredibly hot in that pic.

Jeremy always looks to me like he is on the autism spectrum. He's just removed from everything around him.

R98 it's a good photo, but everyone else looks relaxed and happy. And then there's Jeremy.

I hate Jeremy more with every photo I see of him. You just know how awful he would be in real life.

I bet everyone called him Germy when he was a kid and he still holds a grudge. 🦠

what has happened to this thread? I thought it was about Succession. Jeremy looks perfectly normal in that photo he's probably just not a touchy feely guy, or else he was uncomfortable for the flashing cameras. Who knows. Some of you are getting ridiculous.

I read the profile today and I'm not totally sure why everyone is so freaked about the way it portrays him. To me it was a portrait of an intense, deeply dedicated actor. It consciously puts him in the league of a Day-Lewis or a DeNiro. Is that bad? I'd say the likely main effect is to make him an even bigger deal in Hollywood.

If sometimes his approach leads to tension with cast-mates, I'd think that's not at all uncommon on a multi-season TV show with a large cast. But it's not like anyone from the show was trashing him. Is it bad that he views Succession as a drama and others view it more as a comedy/satire? It clearly incorporates elements of both.

It all seems like much ado about nothing to me. But it sure has hijacked this thread. Will be nice when the season finale airs tomorrow night and we can go back to talking about the actual show.

The show wasn't great all season. It was spinning wheels. The last episode was full of great scenes and I liked it, but it wasn't really a payoff for the trudge of the preceding episodes. I hope the next season is better paced.

R105 - Do you feel a tad silly? You’re picking apart the best show (arguably) on television. Can you just be grateful we have smart, enjoyable entertainment?

[quote] —God we are all just bitches at heart

No, r106: I am afraid it is just [bold]you.[/bold]

Why can't someone else express a different opinion than yours without you calling him childish names? This isn't a thread to RAVE about the show, it's too discuss it, and if someone doesn't like an aspect of the show (or even the entirety of the show), then they're free to say so. No one appointed you the kommisar in charge of television reviewing.

I agree with r105--this season spun its wheels too much, although it had its moments (and the latest episode was terrific). If you liked it, then argue for it,. But don;t just attack someone who disagrees with your opinion just for the fact disagreeing with your opinion.

R107 - This is off topic, but how do you make letters and words in bold print?

R108 = Cousin Greg

It seems we never get our schedules in sync to watch this until the following Saturday, so late to the party again.

I thought it was a great episode and agree with all of you who said it showed off how awful both parents were to the kids.

The Iverson-and-the-mozzarella bit was horrible but perfect.

I think where we are going is that Kendall is the only sibling with any hope of redemption. He has occasional flashes of clarity where he realizes how he comes off and how awful he is. (e.g., at the birthday party when he briefly realizes that "this is an asshole's birthday party.")

He is desperate for people to like him because his parents don't and needs external validation.

So he may surprise us... provided he is not dead. I can see the scenario one of you laid out where he comes clean about the waiter because he realizes what it feels like to almost drown... or not, but I think he makes some sort of bombshell move. He's desperate.

The scene with Greg with Shiv and Tom was great too--no one's mentioned it I think--but you start to get that Greg is mostly just humoring them and doesn't give a fuck what they think of him.

The parallel between Lady Caroline telling Shiv she should have stuck with dogs, and Shiv saying to Tom "you love me but I don't love you"

Don't love Skarsgard's character, they made him too much "what if Jack Dorsey was Swedish?" and it rings sort of fake though works in the plot in that as Logan notes, he doesn't know how to fight a clown.

Agree with those of you saying Shiv constantly proves she is nowhere near as smart as she thinks she is. For instance, Geri saw right through her, though Helen Keller would have too.

Logan is very well drawn, if you've ever known that type, wealthy or not, who feel perfectly justified at blowing up at everyone else (and then promptly getting over it) but will hold a grudge for the next 100 years at anyone who blows up at them or calls them out on something.

r108,m you write "square open bracket-bold-square close bracket" right before the word or phrase you want bold-faced, and "square open bracket-/bold-square close bracket" right after it.

Like this:

[ bold ] word or phrase [ /bold ]

but without the spaces between the brackets and the words "bold" and "/bold"

[bold]Thank you[bold]

[italic] Now try the same thing with italic instead of bold [/italic]

[italic]Thanks[italic]

[small]You can also do it with a smaller font using the word 'small'[/small]

(I think...}

Oops! No, looks like you can't.

Oh well... you can't learn if you don't try.

There was a brief period of about a week where something happened to the site and you could do all sorts of HTML tricks--change fonts, font sizes, font colors.

The Eldergays because very distressed by this internet trickery--it was as if someone had put out the sun--and so Muriel put a stop to it.

r117 you made me laugh so hard I snorted. You have to tread lightly with the eldergays - they're still getting the hang of this newfangled thing called the Internet.

[quote] I think they just don't follow through on bringing Logan down because that's how the world actually works.

This is a great point but all they have done this season is jet to various locations and bicker. The dialogue is "clever" but it goes in circles without moving the story forward or revealing new things about the characters. The minor characters should have been developed or given the means to actually move the plot along. I am very conscious that I am watching actors perform and I don't buy that people actually talk like this. I am not sure I would watch a season 4.

Awww, look at you, R112/R114 - all grown up.

Who is Justine Lupe fucking to be in the main credits when she’s barely on the show?

Fisher Stevens and Dagmara Dominiczyk are also in the main credits and have less screentime.

All three of them had bigger roles at one point or another in the show's history,

I've heard the showrunner originally wanted several characters like theirs and the Asian-American CEO of vaulter to have much bigger roles on the show, but after the first two episodes he decided it worked much better with a focus on the core family members, Greg, and just a few people from the office (Gerri, Frank, and Karl).

Originally Hima Abess had a much bigger role on the show (especially the first season), but then for whatever insane reason they decided to de-emphasize her. I think this was a huge mistake, since she was so superb at being able to stand up to any of the children as Marcia while preserving her character's deadpan humorous scorn for idiots (like Greg) and her mystery.

I gather Abbess saw the writing on the wall when they brought in Holly Hunter as Logan’s “love interest” and she basically said “Use me or lose me” to Jesse Armstrong so he wrote her out.

Maybe next season will deal with the election? If they don’t kill off Kendall maybe he will be involved in that?

Otherwise it’s more of the same….

So beautifully shot though I don’t even mind.

Next season will undoubtedly deal with the election. And Connor will win. I wonder who they’ll get to play his Democrat opponent-Harry Hamlin?

I am probably alone in this but I think that Connor is the most interesting sibling.

*Sorry, I meant "Hiam Abess"--"Hima" is an unfortunate typo.

R151 I’ve never heard Sarah Snook slip.

It’s pronounced “HEE-um,” by the way.

[quote] I see Jeremy's PR people are trying to do damage control by having Sorkin, Chastain, and others vouch for him after that New Yorker piece.

Which is totally what Kendall would do.

“Lisa, could you get a quote from Trevor Noah denouncing the press? How about Sienna Miller?”.

Do we know if the office cleaners and house maids had any success getting Logan’s pee stains out of the relevant carpets?

I've enjoyed the season but the guest stars have been disappointingly weak and unmemorable. Sanaa Lathan, Adrien Brody and Alexander Skarsgard have failed to leave a mark. Bring back Nan Pierce and Rhea Jarrell. Or make Sandy Furnesses' daughter Sandi and Stewey's role bigger.

Succession is always compared with The Sopranos and Six Feet Under and I just don't think it merits the comparison. It might pull a rabbit out of the hat over time, but this season has been a major trudge and it doesn't stand up to the consistent brilliance of The Sopranos, which was brutal, funny and tragic. At this point, Succession is a black comedy that has lost momentum, and the gimmicky "yeah...yeah? Uh huh, yeah" dialogue feels like a self-parody at this point. SNL could do a supercut of certain scenes and they'd have a perfect Succession parody skit based on the non-dialogue.

Season 2 was exceptional, r134. You can't deny that.

R135 I can't and I wouldn't.

I had no intention of watching it because people kept telling me, "It's so good...all the characters are horrible people!" and that didn't appeal to me. I was on a business trip, exhausted in my hotel room and I landed on the second episode of season two—HBO was playing a marathon—and I was hooked. It was as compelling as people said.

But this season has been frustratingly slow, and this is the last time I will mention it, but the dialogue has been really ridiculous at times, almost making me feel like the writers were either filling time or just trolling viewers. Uh huh...yeah! But...yeah? I mean, yeah, right, but really? Uh huh.

I have agreed about this season spinning it's wheels, but this last episode had some wonderful moments, particularly the Shiv/Lady Caroline scene. What I loved was that Lady Caroline didn't come off like a two dimentional horrible mother, but as a reasonable person, who was aware of her horrendous lack of skills as a parent but still with geniuine feelings for her daughter, and certainly not the only terrible person in this twosome. Saying she should have only had dogs wasn't accusatory, but somewhat self-reflective. It also happened to be brilliantly written and performed.

[quote]Logan is very well drawn, if you've ever known that type, wealthy or not, who feel perfectly justified at blowing up at everyone else (and then promptly getting over it) but will hold a grudge for the next 100 years at anyone who blows up at them or calls them out on something.

Hmmm, who else does that sound like?

This TikToker did a good impression of a Christmas Kendall.

R139 "A good impression" = jarring camera zooms, 40 cuts per minute and dialogue that says nothing.

I think it’s easy to get swayed by the way it’s shot and locations and the music and then you finish an episode and realize that nothing has really happened.

R141 Um...OK. Yeah. Yeah, OK.

Yeah?

Yeah!

Yeah...uh, uh huh.

[quote] I have agreed about this season spinning it's wheels, but this last episode had some wonderful moments, particularly the Shiv/Lady Caroline scene.

It COULD have been a great scene, but the "you are my onion" line is one that no one would ever actually say. I don't know if it's the writing or the actress, but Shiv seems like a cartoon to me. She has one way of delivering lines and I just don't believe that a person can keep up that façade 24/7.

Upon further reflection here are my amended predictions for what could happen tonight:

The Lady Caroline/Peter Munion nuptials go ahead despite the absence of Kendall. It is later revealed that Kendall has indeed committed suicide, his only attempt at “putting his affairs in order” being he turned over his Waystar shares to Tom-they will come in handy later. Gojo acquires (not merges with) Waystar, installing Logan as a figurehead but also allowing him to decide who to keep as chief officers. Logan teams up with Tom, Geri, Lady Caroline and Marcia and ousts Shiv and Roman from the company. Michelle-Ann turns up out of the blue to announce that Mencken has pulled out of the presidential race due to his being featured in videos engaging in the homosex with not just one but two twink porn performers-and Logan was the one who got a private investigator to dredge that up. Michelle-Ann tells Connor to saddle up because he’s now the GOP’s pick.

If they don’t kill off Kendall I’m going to be disappointed. That would be a bold move in an otherwise boring season.

What time does it come on? I just checked the HBO Max app it’s not there yet.

That would be a good reason to stop watching. Kendall is the only character who is not completely predictable. Roman, Tom, and Greg are so one-dimensional, Shiv a bit less so but she's proved herself to be kind of ho-hum, and the entire show about Logan's assholery would be too exhausting.

Connor's run for the presidency could be interesting but they really need to give more characters more to do.

R1248 we just lived through a rich buffoon with a hooker lady run for office. I don't need a repeat

Eldergays think they are rewatching Dynasty

Plus why do so many of you watch the show if you don't like it?

It's not like there aren't hundreds of other shows you can watch whenever you want on streaming.

I love this show (this season included) but don’t mine reading the critiques of it here. I’m interested to hear how other people view the plots and characters.

My one quibble with the dialogue isn’t the “ums” but that too many of the characters speak with lightening quick cleverness. There are certainly people like that in the world (especially in these kinds of environments) but they don’t tend to be 75% of all people. There are more Gregs in the world than this. (I loved the tiny Tom and Greg scene in the Richmond episode where Greg says “but I like Hamilton.”)

So glad r144 has never been allowed anywhere around this show's writing team.

[quote]It's not like there aren't hundreds of other shows you can watch whenever you want on streaming.

They want to sit at the cool table even though they have no capacity to perceive anything in non-superficial terms. They want to turn this show into their kind of show because of the praise and prestige it already has. They don't understand the show is excellent precisely because it isn't intended for them.

[quote]I have agreed about this season spinning it's wheels

Anyone who gets this show wouldn't see it that way. Again, wrong show for you.

Great comment R153.

[quote] They don't understand the show is excellent precisely because it isn't intended for them.

Bingo.

Oh FFS - I love the show, I've watched enthusiastically since the pilot AND I can acknowledge that this season has been rather uneventful (still beautifully produced though). That doesn't mean I have to shut up and "stream something else" but thanks for the suggestion.

Why are some of you cats so defensive? Hissing at us to stop watching because we expressed an opinion you disagree with? MEOW!!!!!!!!!

I have high hopes for the finale tonight.

In rewatching the last episode, I just noticed how Gerri has been dressing better and better this season, like the opposite of Shiv. If these two are going head to head in the finale, I think Gerri is going to knock Shiv out.

[quote]They want to sit at the cool table even though they have no capacity to perceive anything in non-superficial terms.

Wrong. This show is superficial. It really doesn't have anything to say other than "rich people are miserable." It's entertaining enough but the cinematography, music and dialogue is the essence of empty but pretty tv. Middlebrow Americans eat it up like they did The Crown and other "prestige" shows.

J. Smith-Cameron is so great in the role. Her completely understated reaction to Shiv's ambush about reporting the sexual harassment was masterful.

True r150. They never got over fucking Dynasty and other crap 80s television, they get flustered if modern shows don't follow a particular formula and they want everything to be campy. It's ridiculous.

If you really want a laugh, go find clips of J. Smith Cameron in True Blood. A less Gerri-like character you will never see.

[quote] That doesn't mean I have to shut up and "stream something else"

Actually, it does.

Those are the rules.

Also, I think Shiv’s bad dressing this season is also a symbol of her growing inability to appeal to others and that she’s less and less self-aware. Her sense of subtlety and skill at persuasion is just gone this season.

R162 okay fine you're right - those might be the rules set by you bitches but I’m rejecting them. HISSSSSS!!!

Do we think Kendall is dead? I wish we could insert a poll here.

I don't think so. Why would they kill off the most interesting character on the show?

I’m so torn on Kendall.

I feel like if he was really dead, they would have shown it, and the wedding wouldn’t go forward the way it appears to. But it seems unlike this show to do such a blatant fakeout (“just kiddiiiiiiing!”). So if he isn’t dead, he can’t just pop up back out of the water, there has to be a larger meaning to it. That’s why I like the theory above that the experience is going to be a rebirth/reboot of Kendall and he’ll come clean about the caterer.

Of course, that would also follow the pattern of every season so far, with Kendall tossing a bomb into things in the finale, only for Logan to deflect it in the following season.

Lol, R155 made me think of Emma Stone’s rant at the end of this.

I think they’ll play as if we was dead for the whole episode and at the very end he will be in some rehab place the other side of the ocean.

I do love Jeremy Strong and hope he continues in the story. Can’t wait!!!!!

Started!!!!!!

R166, I am the OG poster who first stated that I think the theme might be Kendall’s redemption, but I did not add that nice twist of the redemption where K outs himself on the caterer’s death. Now *that* is a fascinating possibility. We shall see shortly!!

R170 agree with you. He nearly drowned so he got a glimpse of the experience the waiter had before he died.

What's Kendall's necklace?

The Mr. T look is back r172.

Bangs The Secretary is such a shitty actress

You mean Kerry with the fringe on top, R174?

She bangs!

Shiv's longshoreman language is a bit much.

Shiv's ass is a bit much.

Shiv, white is not your friend.

I know we will never, ever see it, but I so wish we could finally see Tom fuck Greg, like as would happen in real life.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

Why is this thread greyed out? Another racist?

Anyhoo. Once again, Logan shows he hates his children and only cares about winning at any cost. The end (until next season, when it will all be repeated).

Well, THAT was an ending I never saw coming.

How are they going to get another season out of THAT?

Tom proved he could completely devastate Shiv.

The only thing I can figure out is that the deal falls apart early next season, either because Logan or Matsson dies, or Caroline repents.

Otherwise I cannot see how they could keep the show going if all the children except Connor are on the outs with their father and have nothing more they need from him.

It was a brilliantly written episode--probably the best in the whole series.

Noooooooooooo!

It was off putting. Logan sells his kids down the river except Roman, who a stranger “rates” highly. Apart from Tom apparently double-crossing Shiv, it was not that interesting.

What happens when it dawns on Dora Dumbfuck that Tom is the one?

The children of Logan had every advantage in life except the most important one, people you can depend on who love you. (And so it’s no surprise that at least two of them have married people who are with them at least partly for convenience and material benefits, and Roman chose to get involved with a company woman.)

I thought this ending was going to be the triumph of Roman finally standing up for himself, instead it’s Logan winning again, as Tom recognized he always does. As depressing and Groundhog Day esque as this is, it does seem to be true to life (see Rupert Murdoch).

I love the platonic love story of Tom and Greg. (I’m sure there’s some Greek or German term for what they are.) Meanwhile, I wonder how much contempt Logan has for someone like Tom, who benefits Logan immensely but debases himself to do so. Perhaps Logan never had any respect for Tom anyway, so it doesn’t matter. When Tom mentioned a deal with the Devil, I thought, take it easy Tom, Shiv isn’t so bad. My oopsie!

You don't think Shiv knows it was him????

Jeremy Strong was very good.

Shiv knows it was Tom.

Shiv absolutely knows it was Tom, that’s why she started crying. She thought she had chosen a partner who was so far below her that he could never devastate her in that way, but she always underestimated Tom.

Tom was much, much more in love with the lifestyle he saw in "Vanity Fair" as a child than he ever was with Shiv, and she doesn't even realize it yet.

Shiv knew! Hence the look of complete devastation on her face in the last scene.

Shiv figured it out as soon as Tom walked in the room because she had called Tom and told him. That's how Tom knew and he was the only one outside of the siblings who did.

God I love this show. The siblings dynamics in this one were perfect, from the first pancake finally having a meltdown over the lack of respect they all have for him, to Roman trying to stand strong for his brother and sister instead of giving into Logan (only to get fucked).

When Kendall was crying next to the bins admitting the car crash I thought this is one of those scenes where he’s written his own dialogue and refused to rehearse and Culkin and Snook are forced to tap dance around him.

I thought Tom was going to fuck Greg...not fuck over Shiv.

Anyone here with psych knowledge that can explain Roman’s hang ups?

Tom is really screwed. Shiv's not going to want him anymore and Logan doesn't care about him. Tom will be twisting in the wind.

Lol, R198 I was thinking that too. Also wondering how irritated Brian Cox was to film that last scene with them all in one room.

Does Logan have a history of rewarding people outside the family who help him? If I were in Tom’s shoes, I wouldn’t trust anything Logan promised me.

The Tom/Greg subtext has got to be intentional. Matthew McFayden is constantly portraying Tom as making big cow eyes at Greg and finding ways to draw him close physically, while Greg is awkwardly trying to keep a little more distance and pretend not to notice. I’m very curious where that will go next season, whether Tom will actually push it too far.

This IS pretty much what would have happened in real life.

Caroline would have made a deal with Logan to screw the kids so Logan made more money to spite them; the kids would never talk to him again until he died; and he would leave all his money to Marcia and a foundation. and be miserable for his final days.

And the kids would sell all their shares to Stewy and Sandy to cash out and spite their father.

R202 when Kendall broke down in increments, emoting more, and more, and more with each set of tears, I became more and more sympathetic to Snook’s rictus smirks and Culkin’s squirmy jokes. It’s their way of having to deal with Jeremy Strong performing like he’s auditioning for Long Day’s Journey Into Night.

Hmm. Not sure a holding agreement can be revised by updating “divorce papers.” The kids are all adults and have a vested interest. They could fight it. But frankly, after calling all his kids morons why would they have anything to do with him? More money? They must all be millionaires.

Not sure the Sandi/Stewy cabal will be high on Waystar being acquired.

I think the key was in last episode, Lady Caroline said she and Logan were revising their divorce agreement because her fiancé wanted some change related to a house in London. So they had already reopened the terms of their divorce, and this is probably what Logan demanded to do what Lady Caroline was asking. I do find it peculiar she could trade away the legal rights of now-adult children, though.

The Godfather-lite ending with Shiv as Diane Keaton made me roll my eyes

I don’t think Caroline can give away other adults’ interests. That seemed made up for dramatic effect.

What leverage do the siblings have left? Kendall may or may not have some documents that implicate Greg, Tom, and/or Logan, but he may already have given those to the DOJ. But that seems like it…

Goddamn that was intense. I thought the writing was beautiful. The sibling stuff was like watching a play.

Actress who plays Shiv was amazing when she had that moment of recognizing it was Tom. Really strong.

And I laughed outloud at Culkin’s stuff about having to wait for a gin and tonic so who was the actual victim.

Unclear what season 4 will be but that was a great episode.

The children can sell their shares in Waystar to the Stewy, Sandy, and Sandi coalition... that's all the leverage I think they have.

From Reddit - “Roman was fucked by both of his moms.”

This season was like one long edging session where, at times, your mind was wondering what to have for dinner, what to wear to work the next day, and stuff like that, only to be given a super intense jackrabbit handjob during the last couple of minutes and, yes, you climaxed but you keep wondering "WTF was that??"

And Tom did kill his wife and marry Greg. At a wedding, no less!

From the New Yorker writer…

Hey, asshole/R152, I actually got the fundamentals bang on the money. Whereas I’ve no doubt you’d have trouble predicting the stench intensity of your next Chipotle-induced fart.

With that tweet, Shulman seems like he is really rubbing one out every time he gets a chance to talk about Jeremy's process and anything outlandish or dickish he thinks Strong may have done to commit to a scene. Like, super invested. It's just kind of bizarre at this point.

I thought the finale was incredible. The sibling scene in the parking lot *was* cathartic. It felt like me with my own siblings during tougher times. I thought it was very telling that as soon as Shiv and Roman started to get the inkling that their dad was about to sell the company to Mattson and fuck them over in the process, they ran straight to Kendall to come up with a strategy.

Also, Mattson did exactly what Kendall suggested he do at his party.

Is Kendall really behind all this?

No, R187, Logan is lying to Roman. Lukas does NOT “rate” Roman at all. Roman is also screwed.

The other part is that Logan is right - none of them could run the company and he was making the right call. I feel like we’ve now fully seen the limitations of each of the 3 siblings and we realize why none of them would be the one to take over. Each of them have some strengths but it’s not enough.

So even though Logan is vicious and cruel in his delivery - what he said to them at the end was actually true. And he has looked out for them. And financially supported them. And employed them. So his rage at their bullshit was somewhat understandable.

Does anyone disagree? (Genuine question - wondering if anyone interpreted it differently)

I agree R223. Just like Shiv said, if someone outside the family took over, all of those kids would be pushed out. And just like Logan said, why don’t they go make their own pile of money if they want it? Because they lack the ability.

Two thoughts:

(1) The three children of Logan and Caroline all thought that one of them would be the successor, and so they always treated it this season like the other two children were their only real competition. In doing so, they treated both Tom, Gerri, Karl and Frank badly. but those four in the end outmaneuvered them because they had zero loyalty to them: as Gerri said, what benefits her the most? Now the outer circle and presumably Conner (who is the only child who did not betray Logan) are in favor, with the three children with Caroline out of favor.

*That being said, though even if the kids are out of power at the new Waystar Royco/Go-Jo company, the show has already established each of the four children is already wealthy in and of their own right, and each holds many Waystar Royco shares. All of them could cash out and be even richer. Then Logan would have no leverage over them, except as to who he would leave his fortune to... and none of them would trust him about that because he fucked them over so badly this episode. So let's say he he dies, leaves his billions to Marcia and her kids and/or to a foundation; but the children are still wealthy on their own with their tens (or even hundreds) of millions they already have and can gain by selling their stock, and they've shut him and Caroline out for the rest of their lives and kept his grandchildren away from him. So Logan's victory is ultimately a hollow one (which would be very much what both Logan and Caroline deserve).

You could argue the reason none of the 3 siblings have what it takes to take over is because he's fundamentally destroyed them as people. He never wanted a 'capable' child usurping his power.

I actually got interrupted during this episode so I’m confused. How exactly did Tom screw over Shiv? Help please.

I can’t decide how I feel. This episode was not the polar opposite of cathartic, but it was quite close, I feel very unfulfilled right now. Like if Shiv thinks Tom fucked her over, there is no confrontation for that? Then again, she was clearly in shock. Who is Tom, really? Is he the guy who professed his love for Shiv over and over, begging yo make babies? Or did he literally just slit her throat with a razor, only to nuzzle her from behind with a Mona Lisa smile as she bleeds out?

Also, I 100% thought Tom and Greg were going to go for it, they really took that scene to an extremely sensual place.

While I felt this season was lackluster, they saved the best for last; the finale was fucking awesome! Kieran Culkin and Sarah Snook were outstanding, and I hope they receive Emmy nominations for their performances. Roman was so heartbroken by Logan berating him and then Gerri stabbing him in the back. It was the first time I ever felt sorry for him. Kieran was outstanding in that scene.

Maybe that New Yorker piece marred my view of Jeremy Strong and his "process," but that scene of him confessing about the waiter drowning didn't move me in the slightest. I, too, rolled my eyes at Kendall's breakdown.

I'm curious where the show will go from here in Season 4, potentially the show's final season. I didn't see the credits, but I wonder if Jeremy Strong wrote this episode. It was one of the best out of the entire series.

Sorry, Jesse Armstrong. I kept mixing up their names, damn!

The three siblings hatched the plan to use one of the terms in their parents’ divorce settlement to block the proposed deal. Their parents were currently renegotiating the divorce settlement because of Lady Caroline’s new marriage. The only person behind the siblings who know about their plan was Tom, because Shiv needed to line him up to start broadcasting that Logan was ill as soon as the kids took over. But when the kids arrived to confront their dad, they found out that he had changed the divorce settlement in a particular way that would block their plan, suggesting he knew about it before they got there. The only person who could have told Logan is Tom.

Connor is not on board with GoJo acquiring Waystar because it fucks with his political ambitions.

[quote]Jeremy told me about that incredible scene in the parking lot, which he said had a "cathartic event" but didn't say what. Originally, Kendall was sitting on a stone pillar that Jeremy asked the production designer to make. They did nine takes and he just wasn't feeling it.

If Kieran Culkin and Sarah Snook decided to kill Jeremy Strong with their bare hands after this, I don't think any jury would convict them.

The scene with the three siblings where Kendall confessed to what happened to the waiter was just amazing. Masterful on the part of all involved.

[quote]You could argue the reason none of the 3 siblings have what it takes to take over is because he's fundamentally destroyed them as people. He never wanted a 'capable' child usurping his power.

Exactly. He pitted his children against each other, kept them constantly dancing and insecure by fucking around with them, and then is surprised when they aren't up to taking over. The sad thing is that when all three of the sibs are together, they can actually complement each other's strengths and be effective. But Logan never lets them see that. I loved the little history lesson that Zuckerberg supposedly shared with Mattson about the idea of slaves wearing capes getting nixed because the Romans realized if the slaves could see they outnumbered the masters, they'd be in trouble. Logan is outnumbered.

Nine takes isn't really a lot, R232. I'm sure they were just fine. Fincher likes his actors to do a hell of a lot more than that.

Didn't Connor have shares? Why was he so left out of the "coup" planning... as they went to Dad's to try to push him out?

"I'm the oldest son!" Somehow I think this will be a plot point next season.

I hate Tom. That's been developing, but this episode sealed it. Little snot nosed social climbing cut throat performing as a "nice victim." He smells.

[quote] Nine takes isn't really a lot, [R232].

**sigh**

Yes, Jeremy...

[quote] I hate Tom. That's been developing, but this episode sealed it. Little snot nosed social climbing cut throat performing as a "nice victim." He smells.

I've always hated Tom. And Greg is stupid. Tom tried to have Greg take the fall for the cruise line debacle. And now he trusts Tom to have his back and help him move up the ladder? I always thought Greg only played dumb but was more intelligent than he put on, but it's clear that he's a naive idiot.

The show tries to make you empathize with Tom because Shiv treats him like shit. Yet I feel he deserves it. He's just as conniving and power-hungry as the rest of the Roys.

[quote] With that tweet, Shulman seems like he is really rubbing one out every time he gets a chance to talk about Jeremy's process and anything outlandish or dickish he thinks Strong may have done to commit to a scene. Like, super invested. It's just kind of bizarre at this point.

It’s kind of snowflaky that people see Jeremy Strong as a target of a gutter press and hater acquaintances.

Unless you are a super fan of actors or devoted to the show, the interview delved into the workings of a hyper committed, intense performer and what lengths he will go for his art and for the viewers enjoyment.

It’s not pretty, but it’s very real and very interesting.

Nine takes for the car peak scene explains why Kendall was sitting in the sun, then the shade, then the sun, then the shade. Hard to keep continuity when the sun insists on moving….

It is a wonderful show.

R139–that tik toker is Fat Son (as we call him) on La Brea.

Suddenly Greg is Don Juan? Nah.

[quote]True [R150]. They never got over fucking Dynasty and other crap 80s television, they get flustered if modern shows don't follow a particular formula and they want everything to be campy. It's ridiculous.

They will not rest until the show gives them this kind of fix.

[quote]Didn't Connor have shares? Why was he so left out of the "coup" planning... as they went to Dad's to try to push him out? "I'm the oldest son!" Somehow I think this will be a plot point next season.

It absolutely will. The thing is, Connor at least 10 years older than Kendall - in real life, Alan Ruck is 65, but he looks much younger and I think Connor's supposed to be around early to mid 50s. They don't see him as a sibling; they see him as a caretaker, and the show has been dropping hints that he was probably the closest thing to a loving parent the three of them had growing up, which is really saying something. But it's clear that even though he loves them, he has his own painful history and that's probably getting explored next season. I still say that it's only when all four of them unite as a family unit that they'll be able to take down their monstrous father even if it leaves them all with nothing too.

What a show.

I honestly didn’t “see” this until I read this tweet. The line down the middle. Tom and Greg falling in line behind Logan. It was all there from the beginning.

From the beginning of this season, that is.

[quote] Maybe that New Yorker piece marred my view of Jeremy Strong and his "process," but that scene of him confessing about the waiter drowning didn't move me in the slightest. I, too, rolled my eyes at Kendall's breakdown.

Click click click

[quote] Suddenly Greg is Don Juan? Nah.

Things get desperate over a wedding weekend when there are very few single men around!

Never underestimate ‘Midwestern Nice’ climbing a ladder.

[Quote]Hard to keep continuity when the sun insists on moving….

Ah...pick another location.

[quote] It’s kind of snowflaky that people see Jeremy Strong as a target of a gutter press and hater acquaintances.

The article features quotes from multiple sources who slammed Strong. That doesn't make readers "snowflakes."

I was really expecting a Moldavian type wedding twist most likely with Swedish guerillas.

Stray thoughts:

—The writers showed some self-awareness at the beginning when Logan demanded a story with more action.

—Big payoff from Shiv's monstrous admission she doesn't love Tom to Tom betraying her. He understands her better than we thought. She'll probably love him more than ever now that she can respect his sadism like both her parents.

—I expected Kendall wouldn't die and at the same time it does feel 'off brand' for this show to do a fake-out like that. For all the protests on this thread that "Succession is not Dynasty!" that was a very primtime soap who-shot-JR-Bobby-is-alive! move.

—The mom betraying the kids in this way is a little much, but I can accept it. It underscores how evil all these people are.

—Tom's "Do you want to make a deal with the devil?" also a little on the nose, but it demonstrates he and Greg are both acting solely out of self-interest and nothing else.

—I've read a zillion times that this show is based on the Murdochs and not the Trumps, yet I watch it as a story about the Trump family. It helps to understand the characters. For example, Kendall's admission of having killed someone being laughed off by his siblings? Absolutely Trumpy. Any of the Trump kids doing anything at all out of a sense of morality or ethics? Absolutely unimaginable. They've grown up in a world in which conscience does not exist and so to expect that "Kendall is the only one who may redeem himself" is preposterous wishful thinking. People were defensive about Tiffany based on her alienation from her father, and she predictably campaigned for him and made her deal with the devil. People have been defensive about Barron, suggesting he is just a kid who may not be evil—wishful thinking and denial of the reality that he has lived only in Trump World and he is formed of conscienceless evil. There's no possible redemption, only bad things to come.

—Following the above logic, Tom is vulnerable because he was *not* brought up in Roy World and he does have a conscience and some capacity for selfless love. He probably is trying to earn Siobhan's respect and that will be his downfall as she exploits his weakness and takes her shit back before burying him.

—Greg is part of the family and, while a dork, he is playing the slow-and-steady-wins-the-race game. I still think he will come out on top or else he wouldn't be a primary character we follow so closely. He's not a good person and so he isn't there to be a sacrificial lamb to make us feel bad. He will gradually gain power, fuck over the family, and Nicholas Braun will win an Emmy for his character arc from perceived buffoon to Machiavelli.

Ummm, R206. I think you're reading too much into it. They ALL were acting and in character. That's what professionals do. And they're all professionals doing their job on a hit show.

[quote] Just like Shiv said, if someone outside the family took over, all of those kids would be pushed out. And just like Logan said, why don’t they go make their own pile of money if they want it? Because they lack the ability.

Yes, this was underscored by Skarsgard saying he would consider all the top executives according to an assessment of their abilities. That made Logan realize in the moment that he failed with his children. They have his cruel sensibilities but they lack any kind of useful skill set. They're all talk. And their lack of business savvy and instinct about people is underscored by their failed coup. They underestimated their father, who they planned to publicly declare a doddering old man taken down by a UTI, and they underestimated Tom and Greg, who they'd all sacrifice for their own interests. So even with the collective power of their minds, they failed against their father. Unless he's in denial, he has no choice but to see them all as incompetent to take over the operation.

Christmas is going to be VERY awkward around the Roy compound this year.

[quote] Unless you are a super fan of actors or devoted to the show, the interview delved into the workings of a hyper committed, intense performer and what lengths he will go for his art and for the viewers enjoyment.

Objectively, going off the information conveyed in the article. But that requires the writer's voice, which is very judgmental and rather mocking of Strong.

So, after all that, Kendall’s children didn’t even actually attend their grandmother’s wedding?

The episode demonstrated some subconscious self-awareness.

The kids were playing Monopoly at the beginning.

Shiv cheated and only the hooker took notice and questioned it, while the rest of them agreed that's the fun of the game.

Later, the kids all agreed that fighting among themselves for control after 'killing' their father would be fun.

All of it is a game of Monopoly to them.

Meanwhile, Logan read a book to his grandson and declared it to be too childish for him and too boring, and he demanded a book with 'more action.'

So Logan is looking for action and the kids are just playing a game that goes around in circles.

It's just Dynasty in the 2020s. But that's not bad.

R261 The protests that it is not a soap opera are pretty funny. It's a soap opera with a veneer of chaos.

Shiv is a pretty radical character for a woman. Her complete inability to show Tom any genuine love or respect is refreshing - they never show bitches like this on tv - though we know they exist in real life. For three seasons they’ve kept her behavior consistent, I hope they never change her into something warm or fuzzy. She will show a semblance of sympathy to Kendall or to Logan in crisis, but with her husband she seems quietly repulsed.

After the finale, some obnoxious frau New Yorker critic (Emily Nussbaum) tweeted some shit about how THAT’S why you should be nice to you husband when he’s worried about going to jail.

McFayden is so hot. His acting this season was masterful.

R263 She emulated her mother's painful cat-versus-mouse taunting last week with Tom. Then her father, whom she evidently chose over her mother, threw her away. I think now that Tom has hurt her, she's going to respect him and think she feels love for him while also plotting to act out all her parental revenge fantasies on him.

Shiv will never be able to accept that she might love Tom for real, because she was brought up to be repulsed by vulnerability and thus she cannot accept it in herself. I bet she is far crueler to herself inside her head than she even is to Tom.

[quote] some obnoxious frau New Yorker critic (Emily Nussbaum)

Emily Nussbaum is a great critic.

Tom will tell Siobhan he thought it was the best way to keep control of the company in the family and that she will have her chance to push Logan out and Shiv will say...uh huh. Yeah. That's great. Mmhmm.

Tom will say, hey, when I take over, it’s for both of us, right? Just like Shiv always says to him.

I would enjoy seeing Skarsgaard’s character interact with Greg, lol.

Can we acknowledge just how breathtaking Nicholas Britell's music is and how important it is for making the show what it is? Before Succession, he was best known for working with Barry Jenkins writing scores for both Moonlight and If Beale Street Could Talk. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say he's the most gifted composer I've heard working in film since Hans Zimmer. I'm glad he didn't waste this particular pieces on a movie that could've have bombed regardless. Stunning work.

[quote] Shiv will never be able to accept that she might love Tom for real, because she was brought up to be repulsed by vulnerability and thus she cannot accept it in herself. I bet she is far crueler to herself inside her head than she even is to Tom.

Her character arc this season has been to emulate Roman's cruelty because Roman won his father's favor. Roman has made all those sexual comments about Shiv that she has vocally said she finds disturbing, and in this episode, she turned the tables and made a bunch of sexual insults toward him. But it's not who she is. I don't think she is as cutthroat as she appears to be on the surface. She seems pretty vulnerable to me, very self-doubting, hyper-conscious of being a woman (How could she not be with the misogyny thrown at her?) and resentful that she can't gain traction because of it, abd now she has been 'cucked' by her husband. She can't win against these men, all of whom should love her and all of whom abuse her. Her mother, who would be her only female role model, keeps doing what is in her father's best interests at great cost to Shiv. I think Shiv is a pretty pathetic character overall. She's like Ivanka in that she outwardly presents herself as the most sane and stable kid in the family, but she is ultimately a pretty empty vessel who is mainly there for show.

I think it's safe to say that Logan's favorite child is 'eldest son' Kendall, but he knows Kendall is too flawed to inherit the empire; his next favorite is Shiv but he can't respect her [because she's a woman?]; and in this episode, we saw that he ultimately chose Roman of all his children because he expected Roman, despite his flaws, is unconditionally loyal, and he was floored when it turned out Roman wasn't. Then in walked Tom, who put his neck on the chopping block for Logan early this season, and who currently has favored-son status with Logan.

Logan ultimately respects cutthroat, predatory business sense, but second to that, he expects loyalty. And it's not really second because he doesn't believe anyone's business sense is on par with his own. He is a mythical/Shakespearean father-god-king character in that he expects his children to learn from him and he raises them to inherit his empire, but when they show capability, he becomes threatened and is compelled to destroy them.

[quote] Hmm. Not sure a holding agreement can be revised by updating “divorce papers.” The kids are all adults and have a vested interest. They could fight it. But frankly, after calling all his kids morons why would they have anything to do with him? More money? They must all be millionaires.

It's not about money to them at all. They don't even understand the notion of not having a bottomless well of financial resources at their disposals. They are not living in any kind of middle class or even basically wealthy stratosphere.

The series overall tells us what it's about. To Logan, it's about power over everyone in the world. To each of the kids, it's about the power struggle of being number-one with their father. Basically, it's about their winning his love, but in their world, being the favored child in business is the equivalent of love.

And this episode also told us and showed us it's a game for the kids. All the harrowing shit they go through is a version of "fun" to them. First, there was the Monopoly game, showing that to them, all the power struggles are just a game. If that wasn't clear enough, then the dialogue verbally told us that the family fighting is "fun" when the three kids agreed in the limo that it will be fun for them to fight over dividing control over the company among themselves. I think we all subconsciously register that they will fight to the "death" of their familial relationships as Logan and his brother did, but it's still an irresistable and fun game to them. That's their culture. A high-stakes game that is slowly killing Kendall.

And then if THAT weren't enough to tell us it's all a game to all of them, including even Kendall, whose game has life-and-death stakes, we have all of them ultimately laughing over his killing of "the kid." I think that scene was potent because it unexpectedly overturned almost everyone's expectations that the show will prove to have some kind of moral center. It doesn't. Kendall was just a little bit too dramatic about "the kid," to the point of his siblings and probably many viewers rolling their eyes and looking at him as a big drama queen. Then Roman laughed it off and cued both the siblings in that they can do that, just laugh it off, because why not? (Like Willa said this episode, "Fuck it. Just fuck it. Why not?") We can go back to the Monopoly game: they all agreed that stealing from the bank is cheating, and cheating is part of the fun. So in this scene Roman is the first to decide that he can believe killing some innocent waiter is the equivalent of cheating in the game, and as long as you can get away with it, why not just consider it part of the fun? It doesn't take much for Shiv to buy into that--she has bigger fish to fry as far as she is concerned; the death barely even registers on her because she's invested in the business antics--and then Kendall finally buys into it. As long as he has the emotional support of his siblings, he can buy into their family writing its own code of ethics, which permits killing someone.

The show isn't about morality; it's about unlimited power creating its own system of amorality.

I like that a lot R270. This thread is great - I'm really enjoying reading what you smart bitches have to say.

And agreed R268 - the music is beyond. It's like a character in the show.

[quote] I still say that it's only when all four of them unite as a family unit that they'll be able to take down their monstrous father even if it leaves them all with nothing too.

I don't see this happening. The most obvious inspiration for this story is King Lear, and Lear is a tragedy that ends terribly for all involved except the husband of one of Lear's evil daughters. Cordelia, the "good daughter," who acts out of love for her father but who can't help being honest, has a somewhat heroic but also pathetic death. The others all get their comeuppance. Goneril is the eldest of Lear's daughters, and she schemes with her sister Regan to inherit all of Lear's territories. She and her sister die, and her husband, the Duke of Albany, inherits the whole kingdom.

I'm not suggesting the plot will mirror Lear exactly and that an in-law (Tom would be the obvious one; Willa would be the most unlikely of all characters, but she is going to marry the eldest child...) will inherit the empire, but I do think that the nature of the show is not such that one of the kids will end up victorious. That's not what it's about. They're all vying for their father's love ultimately, and I think we all know that their father sees his kids as pawns and certainly as inferior to him. The more his health has weakened him, the more obvious it has become to him that he is not willing to resign his empire to any of his children. All of them have become his competition, and in this episode all but Connor admitted that they are willing to "kill" their father, not incidentally shortly after laughing off the quasi-murder that has tortured Kendall for years.

I can't imagine that this is anything but a tragedy. And certainly, in the wake of Trump's presidency, all his known and suspected crimes, including an attempted coup, all of which he has been totally immune to, it would ring as false, wishful thinking for Logan to meet with justice by law or by losing money, and it would ring as false, wishful thinking for any of his kids to act out of conscience.

Isn't it strange that we can expect fictional characters to be ultimately motivated by better natures when we understand intuitively that neither Ivanka nor Donald Jr. nor Eric nor Jared ever would?

Both of Roman's mommies looking after their own respective interests before his; gutting in some weird way.

I know a lot of this thread and the last has been about dumping on Jeremy Strong, but that scene by the garbage cans was about as good as TV acting gets. He deserves another Emmy for that. (And no, nine takes isn't that much for a scene that intense.)

Harriet Walter reminds me so much of Siân Phillips. She would be the perfect Livia in an I, Claudius remake.

I am also in the Harriet Walter fan club. She's commanding, and I want her in the show a lot more, but that would probably limit the chilling effect her character has.

I'd love a spinoff with her. She's a good 'Frasier' type in that we have a strong sense of who she is, but we also have only seen a limited profile of her character and there's a lot more to reveal about why she is the way she is, and I can imagine that she might have a really great comic wit and be a really fun person to be around as long as we aren't watching her harm her children.

I think R270 nailed it.

Jeremy Strong has been excellent this season, but the Emmy should be an all-out battle between Kieran Culkin as Roman and Matthew McFayden as Tom. And frankly, Brian Cox’s final scene this season, which almost scared me off my couch, makes up for a lackluster performance all season from him.

I agree, particularly about Culkin. I feel like his clownish character may sort of overshadow his performance, but Culkin's pretty extraordinary. He has made the character repulsive and yet somehow attractive, totally pathetic and yet not very sympathetic, vile and yet somehow the most entertaining of the batch. I think we have all been kind of rooting for his 'relationship' with Gerri to evolve into something broaching love, and mostly for his sake, since their scenes are always sympathetic to his perspective and not hers.

McFayden's performance has been great, but I give Culkin the edge because I think Tom is scripted to be pretty sympathetic as the outsider to the family who literally offered to sacrifice himself not only for the wife he loves but for the entire family's sake, whereas Culkin is playing an impish Loki type who is truly repulsive in nearly every way but doesn't come across as repulsive in every way.

That helicopter footage over Lake Como is spectacular. The opulence of that place is overwhelming.

Culken isn’t better than Macfayden and something doesn’t work about the Harriet woman and her performance. I couldn’t imagine, her “fan” club?

I like that they've given Roman the sexual issues/problems with any kind of intimacy.

Laughed out loud when Logan said "ya scared of pussy?" on the boat.

[quote]Jeremy Strong was very good.

He's a very talented actor, we can't take that away. Great acting all-around from all the principles. Even Greg has excellent comic timing that a lesser talent would struggle to get right - "not Greenpeace ... he is widely known as a sexual pevert", and Connor's desperate "I'm his eldest son" assertion.

Actingwise, I thought Brian Cox was the MVP in season 1; Jeremy Strong, obviously, in season 2; but this season, my vote would go Kieran Culkin. He's been excellent juggling his quasi-oedipal relationship with Gerri, his almost crippling need for his father's approval; his insult-dog irreverence and ambivalence towards his siblings, all which culminated in that final scene. Fantastic acting! Like Joaquin Phoenix, he's about to finally step out from the shadow of a formerly more celebrated brother.

I agree that Culkin's performance ranks right up there with the best on the show, and that doesn't always seem to be recognized amid all the (well-deserved) Strong/Macfadyen buzzing. In the last two episodes particularly he's been exceptional, as we've seen Roman's glib facade crumble.

And I think Roman will be the character to watch next year. Because I think of the three full siblings, Roman is the last to fully realize/absorb that Logan puts his own interests above those of his kids. Despite his cynical front, there's always been something naïve/childish about Roman, and I think the reason he seemed to take last night's development the hardest is because it was the first time he truly realized that Logan will *always* look out for number one.

I am rarely riveted to the screen the way I was last night with that episode. Just excellent.

r282 - I agree with every single word in your post, except Roman will be the one to watch next year. I'm expecting big movements from Connor's side of things.

So would Rory be nominated for Best Supporting? I forget if he's been nominated before. Strong earned his 2nd Emmy in the scene by the trash cans...not even figuring in the birthday party scenes.

Also--and I apologize if it's already been discussed--what did Marcia say to Logan's assistant/girlfriend in the command room? (Something about, "I'll be back at the hotel.") Then we also saw her sneak off when the news of the sale was breaking at the wedding reception. So did she know, or she just didn't want to have anything to do with the children? Interesting that she's said hardly anything this season, but her presence drifts in and out and they all know she is protecting her own interests. (Which anyone in her position would; she's laughing all the way to the bank.)

R282 Roman was the one who really betrayed his father in last night's episode in a sense. Not that it wasn't deserved, but Roman was the one who held out the most because he has gained his father's favor, and he ultimately chose to side with his siblings in his own interest. Even as/after he did that, Logan, offered him an opportunity to side with him and he chose not to do so. Kendall had already chosen to side with himself, and Shiv had no choice because she was sacrificed by Logan in favor of Roman. But Roman did have a choice and he chose his siblings (with whom he has an arguably less destructive bond than with their parents).

I'm one of the naysayers who has found a lot of the dialogue irritating as hell this season, but I was really struck by the dialogue in the limo of the kids explicitly agreeing to "kill" their father. I think Shiv is the first one who used the word, and everyone agreed that they would publicly humiliate (publicizing that he was permanently incapacitated by a urinary tract infection is probably as low as they could go) and "kill" Logan. So all of Logan's worries are as legitimate as they are self-created. They were all willing to metaphorically kill their father, and parts of them have to know that losing his empire might be stressful enough to physically kill him. Kendall hates Logan. Shiv has finally been pushed into hating him. And I don't think Roman hates him deeply but he was pushed into choosing to go against him. I guess maybe Roman is the Cordelia of the three.

R285 His name is Kieran, and yes, he was nominated for best supporting actor in 2020.

Rory has long hair and a haunted face.

What a show! 'Succession has elevated itself into that exclusive Peak TV canon alongside shows like "The Sopranos", "Breaking Bad", "Six Feet Under", "Mad Men" and a very limited few others. What a triumph for HBO Max.

R287, thanks for the correction. Too many Culkins! And yes, I see where he, the guy who plays Tom, and Sarah Snook were all nominated under Supporting at the 2020 Emmys. Sure, they could change categories for 2022, but they all have a better chance at Best Supporting.

I'm undecided about whether the last two great episodes of Succession justify the eight preceding ones in which little happened. They were really hard for me to sit through. I feel like there was at least an entire episode of filler dialogue with the frustrating-as-hell "Yeah. Yeah? Yeah! But...yeah?" shit that had me feeling at times like I was watching acting exercises, with actors testing how many different meanings they could convey with the same dialogue.

But the ninth episode was very good, and the finale was really great.

I'm honestly annoyed by the fake-out death still. For all those who say "this isn't a soap opera," that was a very soap opera move—and a similar fake-out marked the turning point for me when Game of Thrones jumped the shark, when Jaime Lannister "drowned" at the end of an episode and then was shown the next episode to have swum several miles to the other side of a lake and survived, while wearing hundreds of pounds of armor. Nope.

But in this case, I think the payoff was worth it if the payoff was seeing Kendall make his grand melodramatic confession to his siblings, only for them to laugh it off and bring him along in being totally immoral. They bonded as siblings over someone having died, and I am assuming that Kendall moved on in that moment and will no longer be harangued by that very un-Roy conscience thing. That subverted everyone's expectations that Kendall is the moral center of the story (There is no moral center to this story!), and to me that justifies a fake-out death. So OK, points awarded to the writers.

Still, I IMPLORE the writers to limit the insane non-dialogue to a minimum next season. It's fine that the characters are annoying as fuck, but the show itself shouldn't be so annoying that I zone out while they're yeah-yeah-um-OK-yeahing one another.

[quote]So would Rory be nominated for Best Supporting?

I assume you mean Roman? He is not, supporting. He's very much a lead. But we're talking about Emmy, here, who notoriously completely ignored arguably the the single best show ever made, The Wire, awarding it zero nominations in major categories, including acting, during its entire run.

What will happen is Strong and Cox will get all the buzz and get some major momentum from those star-fuckers at the Golden Globes, who wouldn't recognise art if it hit them between the eyes. Culkin would require a major PR campaign and the support of show to even get nominated because even though he's turned the best performance this season, let's face it, Roman Roy is not a likeable character and Emmy voters are very much like fangurls and fanbois in picking their favourites.

I was more moved by the conflicted Roman as Logan was trying to bully him into dumping his siblings than Kendall's parking lot scene. Then again, the entire cast was exceptional.

Both scenes were masterful.

R291 See above. Kieran Culkin was nominated in 2020 for best supporting actor.

I'm sure someone here knows...do series commonly 'promote' actors from supporting to lead roles when they nominate them for awards? (I think it's the submitter who determines whether to call someone a lead or a supporting actor, n'est-ce pas?)

And if Culkin went from being nominated as a supporting actor to being nominated as a lead actor, would that be a bargaining chip for his agent to negotiate a big raise?

I noticed Jesse Armstrong wrote the last two episodes (and episode 1 of this season I think). His episodes are always on another level - he's a brilliant writer.

Weren't all the 'Friends' actors submitted as Supporting until they finally decided to submit under Best Actor/Actress? It was only then that Aniston won (the year she was using a cane, if I recall). Kudrow had previously won as Best Supporting, when they were all submitting in that category. Matthew Perry's agent forgot to submit him one year, if I recall correctly.

I think Snook is very good in her role. Her character is written in a way that backs her into a corner because she's a real outsider as a woman, and both her brothers have attacked her with vicious misogynistic comments, and her father molested her when he was delirious in bed, which I assumed may not have been the first time. She'll always be alienated from "the boys" of the family no matter what, and I think that comes across in Snook's performance. She isn't as powerful as her brothers because she can't be. She doesn't have the leverage.

Everyone's pathetic in their own ways: Kendall has that pesky conscience thing and also the self-destructive compulsions; Roman is wired wrong, with sexual perversions, intimacy problems and poor judgment overall; Logan is basically all-powerful except that his body is now failing him; and Shiv is a woman in a hyper-masculine world, which is sadly what makes her a pathetic person. She lives in a world where there is no such thing as morality or ethics except as obstacles to be gotten around, and she can function by those terms better than Kendall can, but she will never not be perceived as a weak woman by every man in her life except her husband, who she has dominated. She's as fucked up as Roman is, really, when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

Oh, I didn’t catch that, r293. That’s fantastic.

In a strange way, the clash of Strong's capital M Method and Culkin's lowercase m method made that garbage can scene all the more powerful. It underlined their emotional disconnect.

I just finished the episode…..lingering chills.

I love that goofy Tom made the most savage move of his life, and then goes to kiss Satan herself on the head in the final scene.

R298 Strong seemed to be really feeling intense remorse, and I bought that that was authentic to his character, but Roman and Shiv shrugging it off seemed to turn Kendall's authentic emotion into melodrama by the terms of their world's lack of conscience. Is that what you mean? It seemed almost as if Kendall felt kind of 'lame' given his siblings' reactions and snapped out of it pretty quickly.

This subhed is great:

[quote] Succession is a Sisyphus fable in which you root for the boulder

It gave me great pleasure when Caroline fucked her children, and then apologized, and said her new husband is so excited. I hope real people like her exist in the world.

"what did Marcia say to Logan's assistant/girlfriend in the command room?"

I think she placed a food order -- seriously. Wonderful bitch move -- she obviously knows Logan is fucking Kerry, and at this point probably doesn't much care, but she can still treat Kerry like the help, and she did.

“Who’s the real victim here….I waited three quarters of an hour for a gin and tonic.”

[quote] By the end of the season, the lack of ideological commitment feels like the show's most profound message. Here is a band of ultra-rich, overgrown children who oversee a media operation doing genuine damage, every day, to American democracy — and none of them really talk about it. Neither Logan nor any of his offspring seems bothered more than fleetingly by the grandparent-radicalizing scheme they operate. But more damningly, they don't seem to have an ideology at all. They aren't right-wing activists forged in some Heritage Foundation retreat, but rather a gaggle of profoundly damaged narcissists with daddy issues whose feckless maneuvers nevertheless have the practical impact of accelerating America's democratic decline. You could just as easily see them staging a takeover of MSNBC, so divorced is their plotting from any political project that has meaning to them.

[quote] Audience frustration with this set-up, though, has been palpable in the third season, and this isn't the first time HBO has had a flagship show almost deliberately defy the audience's desires — think about the Sopranos finale, or the second season of Westworld, which was so intentionally obtuse in an effort to evade fan sleuths that it became unwatchably convoluted. But going around and around with the Roys means audiences are once again denied the satisfaction of any moral comeuppance or the gratification of an actual, well, succession. And convincing audiences to care about the Roys floundering in place for another season or two is a big ask, no matter how funny it can be.

YUP and YUP.

If the majority of them aren’t dead by the series finale, I’m going to feel cheated.

It would be satisfying to see all the family members forced to collude in the last episode, where they go into a nondescript diner in New Jersey and get taken out by a hit man who guns down the family in the booth next to theirs.

In a strategic twist, Shiv has Tom’s “popsicle baby” implanted in her uterus to gain a foothold in the new regime. Roman becomes a party boy in Cannes, and Kendall kills himself for real this time by jumping off the top of the ATN tower. This is the ending I want.

It’s an ice cream parlor, not a diner.

ATN? ATM!

R310 How do you know I didn't mean George Costanza and his parents?

I don't care about the kids, I just want Logan to die in a truly horrible and endless way. Then the kids can be left penniless, that's good enough for me.

To the point of Strong seeing it as a high-stakes drama and the others seeing it as a satire/dark comedy, compare their characters. Strong's character doesn't really have a sense of humor. He takes himself seriously and his having a conscience shows that he believes there are stakes in the world that matter—like people's lives—whereas it's all pretty inconsequential to everyone else, or at least to his siblings. I don't think any of them could imagine losing their luxuries or immunity from any kind of accountability, and so that makes them nonchalant and adds a comedic sensibility because the essence of comedy is 'all's well that ends well.' Kendall takes drugs that have made him experience bleakness and he is drawn to endangering his life, so he is always attracted to consequences. It makes sense that Strong would take his story more seriously than the others take theirs.

Possible other threads of interest for next season:

1. Connor's presidential run - marrying Willa literally making an honest woman out of her seems like a real setup for a Trump-like outcome.

2. Sandy, Sandi and Stewey - will probably not take this acquisition lying down.

3. Logan and Kerry trying for a baby - the ultimate "I'm disappointed with how all four kids turned out so let me make another".

4. Greg, Comfry and the Contessa's triangle - Greg as a player?

5. The new foreign destination - which billionaires' playground will the choose nest? Biarritz? Marbella? Monaco? St. Moritz? Baden-Baden?

[quote]the dialogue in the limo of the kids explicitly agreeing to "kill" their father. I think Shiv is the first one who used the word, and everyone agreed that .... They were all willing to metaphorically kill their father, and parts of them have to know that losing his empire might be stressful enough to physically kill him.

But was it in the dumpster dead-waiter confession scene or the breakfast "intervention" scene where Shiv and Roman were insistent to Kendall "stop trying to kill Dad." And Kendall, ever the woeful sad sack shook his head in agreement, yeah, I should stop trying to kill dad.

Soap opera? Like classical mythology or Shakespeare are soap opera. Soap opera often = archetypal.

[quote]3. Logan and Kerry trying for a baby - the ultimate "I'm disappointed with how all four kids turned out so let me make another".

That made me think of "The Lion in Winter" and this incredible scene

R316 I studied creative writing, and when we were assigned Anna Karenina, I said I felt like I was reading a soap opera because of how it is structured: almost every scene features someone entering a room, a dramatic interaction and a dramatic exit. My instructor, a novelist who has published over 20 books, said she learned dramatic structure from watching daytime soap operas and that she often watches them for a sense of rhythm and ways to keep the reader interested.

"Soap opera" shouldn't always be understood in a pejorative sense. And yes, a lot of Greek and Roman myths especially lend themselves to soaplike melodrama, and a lot of Marvel franchise addicts are quite wrapped up in the soap + fantasy stories of Thor and Asgard.

I'd definitely classify Game of Thrones as a fantasy soap dramatically, even if early seasons seemed to transcend melodrama.

Just wanted to give a little shout-out to Brian Cox's roaring last scene. After a season of going through the paces... and have all the "oooh, look at the acting!!" focused on others in the cast.... he devastated. He was authentically scary. A monster. Epic.

Live discussion via Washington Post on Twitter.

R319 - When he said “I WIN!” did it for me.

Given the facts as spelled out in the show, selling to GoJo is a compelling move. The kids are showing themselves to be selfish idiots by opposing it. They cash out with billions and can do whatever they want.

R322 - Remember, the kids want power. They’ve already experienced the billionaire lifestyle of champagne and yachts and are bored. For you the money may be satisfying, but for them, they have lost. Lost their opportunity to make their impact on the world. These people are modern day Kings and Queens, ruling the people.

I am also really enjoying this thread and reading what all you smart heauxs think!

I don't think Shiv will love Tom more - I don't think she ever loved him at all. Tom made a deal with the devil and there is no way he's coming off that scot-free.

I laughed at the "we've all killed a kid, so what" scene but didn't interpret it as them laughing about the death of the kid or Kendall's conscience. They are just so, SO bad at showing love for one another and being supportive, but goddammit, they try. I think the four Roy kids really fit into that hero/scapegoat/mascot/lost child dysfunctional family roles model of psychology and Roman is always playing the mascot, trying to diffuse painful situations with humor and reassurance, no matter how misplaced and inappropriate. It's probably the role he always played as a child. Connor saying he loved "all three of you pricks" was such an authentic older sibling thing to say and really cemented all the lines we got from the siblings the other seasons about how loving Connor has been to them, but they take him for granted too.

"Boo, souls!" was by far the funniest line in the episode, if not the season.

How low had Kendall fallen to consider putting five years of communications on his Insta? And how does Jeremy Strong not see it as comedy after constantly delivering lines like this?

I still hope Greg and Tom have an affair, although I’m doubtful it will happen. It would be so sensuous. In a way, they are rescuing each other. And it would be beautiful to see it play out physically.

R326 Nah, Tom couldn't handle Greg's "length". It'd hurt poor Tom.

So, will Skarsgard become a major character next season and will Roman spend much of his time figuratively and literally be trying to get in bed with him?

R327 - Actually, in my version, Tom is the top to sweet, innocent bottom Greg, who cries a solitary tear as he’s penetrated by Tom’s thick 8 inches.

R328 I could absolutely see this now that Gerri has broken Roman's heart.

I don't doubt there's some self interest on both sides but it's wild how Willa and Connor are the most loving, functional relationship on this show so far. I believe Willa is emotionally invested in Connor despite the fact that she should know better because Connor so obviously genuinely loves her and wants to make her happy. When people kept bothering him to take his coat off, that was real protective anger on his behalf that she lashed out with.

I can imagine Trump trying to mandate bleach injections, and the GOP probably would support it if not for the economic fallout of a mass dieoff.

[quote] Why was he so left out of the "coup" planning... as they went to Dad's to try to push him out? "I'm the oldest son!" Somehow I think this will be a plot point next season.

Connor has some sort of different deal than the other the children do because they have a different mother--the show has never clarified what the terms of the two marriages were, but it seems when Logan and Caroline divorced @ 2000, Caroline arranged for the Waystar Royco corporation to be structured so that she and her three children (not Connor, who is Logan's son from an earlier marriage) had a supermajority of deciding votes if Waystar Royco would be sold. So Connor was irrelevant to the coup planning--he wasn't mentioned in the divorce agreement because he was not Caroline's child.

Whoops R331 was obviously meant for a different thread haha...

I don't understand Willa's motivation at all. It seems to me to be the least psychologically believable. If she really were repulsed by Connor, she wouldn't have lived with him all this time. Maybe she continues to resist him because she knows their dynamic is based on her being unattainable to him. Like Shiv with Tom, Connor probably can only emotionally desire/respect someone who rejects him as his father does.

I haven't seen any evidence that Connor loves her because she's unattainable to him though I do think he's comfortable seeing their relationship as somewhat transactional like all the Roys view all their relationships. Instead I think Connor simply exists outside the bounds of social propriety because nothing he's ever thought, said or done has really mattered to anyone. So he has no problem with the fact that she used to be a hooker and wanted financial support - at least she was up front about that and didn't pretend to love him for his money. They've been honest with each other all along - she even reminds him that she's not going to sublimate her aspirations for his and he accepts that. I think she does like (not love) him and has grown fond of him and she doesn't quite know what to do with that. And since she's not insane, she clearly wants to stay as far away from his batshit family as possible.

If they are only doing 4 or 5 seasons, it seems like

Season 4 - the kids try to fight Logan and lose. Shiv and Tom divorce. Gerri is fired along with all the others (except Tom)

Season 5 - Logan dies and each kid has their own new path. Shiv political hack like Kellyanne Conway. Roman spiritual and capitalist guru like Gwyneth. Roman buddies with GoJo guy but miserable. Connor elected President.

Sorry, Kendall the spiritual guru like Gwyneth

The series finale will be very similar to “Six Feet Under.” It will show each character growing old until their ultimate death. This formula worked very well, and is a proven audience pleaser.

I bet they pull a reset next season, as they always do. The deal falls through, the stock recovers, and we’re back to square one.

[quote]So, will Skarsgard become a major character next season and will Roman spend much of his time figuratively and literally be trying to get in bed with him?

That would make sense - next season they take turns trying (in different ways) to cuddle up to Skarsgard; if that is the path they're going, I wish they'd use the Adrian Brody character instead. He's (seemingly) nice, jewish, hoodie wearing family guy would baffle the hell out the Roys.

I think Logan elevated Tom not just out of his displays of loyalty, but to humiliate Shiv - rub her nose in it that her husband betrayed her for your Dad! But once Tom is no longer useful as an inside scoop to what Shiv is doing, he'll be kicked to the curb like the others.

I wish they would quit the series now and go out on a high note. They’re going to fuck this whole thing up with another season. It will be painful to watch their money grab. Fuck these writers and producers.

Yep, R338. As the article above describes it, it's a Sisyphean show...push rock up hill, rock slides down, push rock up hill, rock slides down, and on and on. The producers don't seem bothered by the notion of viewers tiring of the same formula every season, and going by the faith in the show's genius that excepts it from criticism in the eyes of many here, possibly for good reason. People above say they'd happily watch a plotless show just for the sniping dialogue.

One more nit—if a deal like this were happening in the real world, the armies of bankers and lawyers would not fly to Italy.

[quote] But once Tom is no longer useful as an inside scoop to what Shiv is doing, he'll be kicked to the curb like the others.

And of course, she knows that better than anyone. It could be an opportunity for some character development for Siobhan. In theory, she could realize that Tom actually cares about her in a way that her father never will, and she could warn him that cozying up to her dad is a bad idea that will hurt him in the long run--something he hasn't seen her father do since Tom has really only seen Logan from the vantage point of his kids, who he torments and belittles, but who he won't actually *destroy* the way he does to non-family. It would be interesting to see Siobhan surprised to find herself scampering to protect her husband as he digs his ditch ever more deeply. It could give her some humanity without having to betray the idea that these people are totally amoral.

That probably wouldn't happen, but it could be an interesting direction.

Tom did tell Greg he’d be the bottom of the top!

[quote] what did Marcia say to Logan's assistant/girlfriend in the command room?"

[quote] I think she placed a food order

A funny parallel to Roman mocking her by placing a food order and her saying she’d bring him a kids’ menu. The ho still has to obey Marcia.

Just FYI, Holding Agreements are separate from divorce settlements. This is especially true for major corporations. You can’t try and do a LuAnn and steal from adult children.

Logan might wind up like Ted Turner, losing billions of dollars as a result of this acquisition.

Ted Turner said on 60 Minutes that he became suicidal when his company bled money because he had to lay off so many people and he felt a paternal responsibility to financially support them.

It would be interesting to see Logan go through that kind of depression, and more interesting (and more cutting to his children) if we learned that he felt actual remorse for people losing their livelihoods because of his failure. That would be a bit of a shock.

This is a very interesting analysis of the last episode by Jesse Armstrong (the showrunner/creator, and writer of the episode) and the finale's director.

I wish the same person would stop constantly posting that Connor is somehow going to be elected president on this show. That is never, ever, ever, ever going to happen. He does not have the narrative of personal success that Donald Trump forged, nor is he able to tap into conservative outrage in the same way.

Connor is meant to be analogous to Steve Forbes more than to Donald Trump.

R350, I don't disagree with you but what personal success did Dump forge? I'm being serious. His daddy gave him money, he lost it, then he got in bed with the mob.

Tom got a second ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ card whilst playing Monopoly. Great foreshadowing for the end of the episode.

R351 Trump had the kind of cult of personality that Kendall has been desperately and pathetically to cultivate for himself. As far as I've seen, Connor doesn't have anything like Trump's 1980s real-estate mogul or The Apprentice propelling him. He's more like a Jeb Bush or JFK Jr. type, an heir apparent who apparently can't live up to expectations people assigned to him.

One thing no one's talked much about yet is Shiv's nasty and passive-aggressive toast of her mother at the wedding, which made it quite clear to her mother and everyone who knew what to listen for that she holds her mother in utter contempt.

I'm sure that factored quite a bit into Caroline's decision to betray the children (though I wish we had been shown more of Harriet Walter's reactions to the toast--we just got a few fleeting glimpses of her during it).

What? She lied and said how much she loved her mom.

R354 is right; it was really passive aggressive and nasty and that couldn't have gone unnoticed by all. It was a kind of public humiliation, even if she ended it with a "but seriously!"

I hadn't thought about how that might be perceived as influencing her mother's decision—although she would have done it anyway, wouldn't she?

[quote]Kendall make his grand melodramatic confession to his siblings, only for them to laugh it off and bring him along in being totally immoral. They bonded as siblings over someone having died, and I am assuming that Kendall moved on in that moment and will no longer be harangued by that very un-Roy conscience thing.

This is so far afield of what was actually happening in this scene, I am really perplexed by this take. I think R324 laid it out appropriately. Roman was trying to comfort his brother the best way he knew how, with uncomfortable jokes. They weren't bringing him over to the dark side, lol.

Also, whoever said that Shiv is going to get a hard-on for Tom now that he helped fuck her over has a screw loose. She portrayed a full-body sense of betrayal in that final scene, but was also guarding herself against him, playing it off. She will find a way to back at him for this. It's a complete flip to last season's finale, when Shiv basically pleaded with her father to pick anyone over Tom. She was prepared to make her brother the sacrifice as long as Logan protected Tom. And then Tom "repaid" her by not seeing what she did for him. Tom's concern in where his placement is going to be amidst any plans of restructuring has always been a consistent hammer. I was not surprised by his play, as the season had been setting it up since the first episode, with all the secret phone calls he was having. It became obvious he was the one who told Logan the sibs were all at Rava's house in ep 2.

I am actually hoping Tom takes a huge nosedive next season. I find his character odious. He can take soulless Cousin Greg with him.

^ a way to *get back at him.

I don’t think Caroline cared what Shiv said. If she did, she would have given her advance notice so she could prepare something.

[quote] What? She lied and said how much she loved her mom.

She said she loved her mom, which is probably true, because almost everyone at some level loves their mom (even if she was cruel and abusive when they was growing up) just because she's their mom and we have an innate need for a maternal figure, no matter how inadequate.

But everything else Shiv said was deliberately vague, and could be construed in two ways--the adjectives she kept using to describe her mom were words like "remarkable" and 'extraordinary," which could be references to how cold and monstrous her mother is.

I must say that Gregg certainly has gotten used to this uber wealthy lifestyle under Tom's tutelage. He hasn't earned it, he doesn't understand it, he's still an outsider and he's still a foolish person. But now he really believes he is "one of them." There's nothing worse than a clueless idiot with a false sense of bravado.

He's not the loveable bumpkin that we first met anymore and I can't wait for reality to hit him squarely in the face and he's taken down notch or two.

And she was telling the truth. Her mother is remarkably and extraordinarily hurtful. Siobhan said it because it is true; her saying it didn't make it true—and so yes, her mom probably would have done the same either way. She should have had dogs instead of children.

But no one took offense to her toast. They laughed and clapped which is exactly what the mom wanted.

[quote] He hasn't earned it, he doesn't understand it, he's still an outsider and he's still a foolish person.

True abiut Greg and true about all his cousins. That's Logan's point exactly and it's what he told them. When Skarsgard told Logan he would determine their fates according to their capabilities, Logan had an epiphany and realized none of his kids earned anything they have and none is capable of running his empire. They are better acculturated than Greg is, but they're not knowledgable. Kendall is a blowhard with fantastical delusions of grandeur, Roman is totally irresponsible and as has been said about him, he has good judgment and also terrible judgment, and Shiv is smart and competent and decisive, but the empire is out of her wheelhouse. She's good, but not good enough. Roman is a walking liability, and Kendall would cause a meltdown with his big ideas, and he would destroy the company culture as it began to fail under his leadership and he blamed everyone around him for failing him. We saw that this season in a microcosm.

Logan had an epiphany? Are you a psychic?

Yes, R365.

Good post R364, but the siblings are that way because that's how Logan raised them to be. He made sure that they would be under his thumb, in competition with one another and would never be a success on their own.

Roman, in particular, is very smart, the smartest one out of the 3 and he really knows how to negotiate and charm people. But after a lifetime of psychological abuse by Logan, he's paralyzed and programed to prove to his father that he's a failure time and time again. That has really done a number on Kendall to where he's just a shell of a person.

Roman is smart? Okay

Here is our next season works out: we know that there’s going to be a new president. That president is going to have an active department of justice that is going to look into the company.

It is going to find enough information to Arthur Andersen the company.

They will lose to middle class income people who can tell them what to do even though the Roys don’t like it.

People who think Shiv’s wedding toast was nice or that the guests thought it was nice have not been part of a passive-aggressive family or watched one make a spectacle of themselves at a wedding. The guests were tittering because they were enjoying the barbs, which Shiv wasn’t even that subtle about.

[quote] Roman, in particular, is very smart, the smartest one out of the 3 and he really knows how to negotiate and charm people.

Roman has great instincts, but I wouldn't necessarily label him the "smartest" out of the three siblings. While Roman is a better negotiator than his other siblings, I think Kendall is the smartest in terms of business acumen. It's just that he's such a fuck-up in his personal life it often impedes his ability to operate the Waystar the same way as Logan.

Love this

I loved Shiv’s honest toast, and I love the way the family argues in public without caring what others think. When you’re that powerful, you don’t have to hide your embarrassing moments; you’re the only thing that’s important.

R372 - That’s fucking brilliant.

Shiv says, during the Richmond episode, about VP Boyer: “Nothing’s more dangerous than a second-rate individual who sees his chance.”

A good warning to Logan about his children, and a good warning to Shiv about Tom.

Someone wrote an article about the height disparity among the cast and they said that the producers initally paired Tom with Greg so that Greg could play against someone without towering over them. What a funny way for characters to develop.

[quote]Roman, in particular, is very smart, the smartest one out of the 3

I remember Roman's comment about himself in S1 - "look, I'm dumb but I'm smart". He's only smart insofar as he understands the new language of edgelords in politics and tech, and as we've seen across three seasons, he gets a lot of deals made in men's bathrooms. He knows how to talk their talk, but its like an idiot savant.

The amount of people cheering Logan for "beating" his children (and certainly "I beat you!!" can be taken two ways) as something to be admired reminds me why Trump won the presidency, and why 74 million people still voted for him for a second term. What is the cost of Logan's fortune to the rest of us? He turned black bile into silver dollars. At least two of his children wanted to change that model. Kendall flat out called him evil and Shiv refused to stand next to a Nazi. I don't take joy in Logan winning and I hope he gets a miserable end.

I'm with you, R377. I can't help but feel for the Roy siblings even as they do and say awful things but I can't understand the people who root for Logan to "win" because they dislike his kids so much. Whomst, exactly, do they think made them that way via his decades of monstrous brutality?

I just wish that after Logan’s, "I WIN!" Karl or someone in the back had hummed a little, "Bah dah bum bum bum."

Well if you're going to think it through as if these are real people, then you must realize that if Logan were to "lose" anything but his life, he won't be losing it to anyone better than he is. The Skarsgard character is there to show us that, as is Kendall's smarmy friend. They're all poo humans.

I think it’s important to recognize that the Facebook dig abut Zuckerberg was to equate Facebook users with slaves. Gif forbid they wake up and overthrow the billionaires.

It only will be gratifying to me if the adult kids manage to outsmart Logan.

[quote]That helicopter footage over Lake Como is spectacular. The opulence of that place is overwhelming.

It was Lake Maggiore.

A lot of MARY’s in these comments.

Oh who cares. It's a great show and it's okay to be moved by it.

Under what scenarios would the deal come undone? The DOJ "historic fine"? The kids getting to Caroline? Sandy, Sandi and Stewey? Because there's no literal "succession" narrative after Gojo acquires Waystar Royco.

One thing that struck me as odd is that if this maneuver to block the sale occurred to the children, wouldn’t it have occurred to Logan as well? Why did he even need Tom to tell him? Roman was at the meeting at which the tech guy makes the proposal, so Logan should have suspected the kids would figure it out.

He was going to present it as a fait accompli to the kids.

But in the real world, a veto right like that is neutralized before heavy negotiations start.

Armstrong really does have a way with a line. I love the little reminisces Brian Cox gives as Logan. This time it was, "“America, I don’t know,” and he does look tired. “When I arrived, there were these gentle giants smelling of gold and milk. They could do anything. Now look at them. Fat as fucks. Scrawny or on meth, or yoga. They pissed it all away.”

Amazing.

I also loved the touch about the children's book Logan is reading to Iverson at the start - its about an old cat getting ready to die.

R388 - Logan was spot on in his assessment of our country. I had never quite heard it like that, but it so true. Fat fucks, or scrawny meth heads or yoga idiots at Whole Foods. We’re doomed.

There was some outstanding acting last night. Especially, in the scenes with the 3 Roy children.

Kieran Culkin was outstanding in the last scene, perhaps his finest moment on the show so far. It was the one time Roman dropped his class clown act and revealed how devasted he was after he pleaded with Logan not to go through with the deal. Then Gerri, who he has grown to trust, betrayed him as well, crushed him. You saw it all in his body language and eyes. And the way he was stuttering and shaking when he finally rejected Logan's manipulative puppeteering--it was the first time I felt Roman was a fully-rounded character and not just the comic relief with major sexual hangups.

God, I hope Kieran Culkin gets the recognition he so deserves from Emmy. But as I said upthread, Americans can't seem to get over characters being unlikeable. The Golden Globes, if it still exists, will nominate stars they want to show up to their shindig or anybody not American (Cox, MacFadyen? Skarsgård?) even when they don't deserve it. But most award voters would still eat up Kendall's sallow-faced demeanour all season and his confession by the garbage cans over Roman's much more difficult internal incongruence. He'll need a major viral campaign to even get him noticed.

I'm serious about the question I asked at r385. Under what circumstances would the Gojo deal unravel? There's no story if it prevails.

R393 - funding falls through, merger challenged by antitrust regulators, if one of them is a public company I think that could derail it?, some kind of fraud or misrepresentation in the deal terms

[quote]I expected Kendall wouldn't die and at the same time it does feel 'off brand' for this show to do a fake-out like that. For all the protests on this thread that "Succession is not Dynasty!" that was a very primtime soap who-shot-JR-Bobby-is-alive! move.

The only people that assumed he had died were the Dynasty set. I didn't see it as a fake-out but was expecting more of the classic rebirth by water type scenes even though it didn't really pan out. He passed out and let the beer bottle slip into the water and then apparently fell off the inflatable and had to be rescued by Comfry? Plausible and not soapish at all.

I’m so amused when posters say “I hope Kieran Culkin (or any actor) gets the recognition they deserve, blah blah blah.” Acting is their fucking job. That’s what they get paid to do. They don’t deserve any special ass-kissing, or “recognition.” I go to work every day and do my best; I don’t expect to receive a fucking award.

Can I at least admit Kieran Culkin the standout performer of the third season without offending you, r396?

R396 is Don Draper posting from the old folks’ home

R397 - To answer your question, no, you cannot say Kieran is a standout actor. This show is an ensemble, a cast of characters that depend on each other for context. It wouldn’t work without all of them present. Kieran needs the other actors to do his job.

Kieran got the Golden Globe Supporting nomination over MacFadyen.

^Golden Globe are notorious star-fuckers.

Why hasn't Succession been attacked for its lack of diversity?

Kieran was struggling to keep up. He just sped up his usual tics and grimaces.

Are they going to continue the action of the siblings roaming around the office without any clearly defined jobs? That HAS to stop.

The siblings had titles. Roman was COO, Shiv came in as President of Waystar. Kendall was always working when he was in the company.

Seemed to me that they just walked around and never did any work.

I don't think Tom told Logan about the plan to kill him:

1. Wouldn't Logan have had to take care of the holding company issue in the course of the acquisition anyway? I feel like he would obviously think of this

2. Doesn't Tom say something to Greg to the effect of "this family can't be trusted"? so why would he betray Shiv for Logan?

R395, it was a fake-out because Jesse Armstrong had Logan say “Your dad was OK” to Iverson in the first scene which made it sound like he’d died. It makes no sense otherwise.

R407, Tom did tell Logan. Why do you think he asked Greg if he wanted to make a deal with the devil? And promised him he could have twenty Gregs.

Amstrong as much confirms it in this interview.

So the team behind this are all Brits, why didn’t they set it in England?

[quote] Tom got a second ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ card whilst playing Monopoly. Great foreshadowing for the end of the episode.

“Great foreshadowing”? Really?

SHIOBAN GOT A BADONK!

Yeah, Sara Snook's got a BIG FAT ASS.

[quote] So the team behind this are all Brits, why didn’t they set it in England?

It seems to me the show is loosely based on Rupert Murdoch, Sumner Redstone, and Conrad Black. Most of these media magnates are based in America, Canada, and England. The Roys has connections to all three countries.

[quote] I don't think Tom told Logan about the plan to kill him:

At the link at r349, the showrunner/creator and episode writer Jesse Armstrong says explicitly that Tom indeed did tell Logan.

[quote] So the team behind this are all Brits, why didn’t they set it in England?

It would have limited the audience. Some people would have thought it was too highbrow if most of the characters spoke with British accents.

[quote]SHIOBAN GOT A BADONK!

She's got the kind of body that drives Black and Latino guys absolutely insane. White guys like more of a Comfry type.

[quote]So the team behind this are all Brits, why didn’t they set it in England?

British TV is crap! Plus Hollywood has all the money, of course.

[quote] I so wish we could finally see Tom fuck Greg, like as would happen in real life.

Will the Ryan Murphy fans and gay porn fantasists please cut it out? It would absolutely not happen in real life between straight people. Straight characters, straight actors, straight writers, straight show runners ... what kind of brain rot can't imagine two men in the same frame without thinking they'll rip each others clothes off? You people need therapy.

r419 DL has some extremely stereotypical gay men who aren't really connected with the rest of the world.

Release me from your vise-like grip, r419!

[quote]She's got the kind of body that drives Black and Latino guys absolutely insane.

Also lesbians.

Speak for yourself, R422. I like my women to have bodies like models. My latest crush is the girl from Maid, Andie MacDowell's daughter Margaret Qualley.

Stupid question, but I wasn't a Business major...if Logan did, in fact, close the deal with Gojo...the children still get paid out, correct? Just because their mum went back on her word about the majority vote, they would still have their stock, percentages, etc. Right?

I've loved Dame Harriet Walter since forever. She's built a fabulous career on one defining characteristic –– being brittle. No one can out-brittle her. Just as no one can out-flounce Joan Collins.

And Tom well and truly wants to be Nero, paired up with his tall, beautiful Sporus. It’s equal parts grotesque and beautiful. It all works because the actors make it work.

Then there’s Brian Cox. Plenty of children have complicated relationships with their fathers. In this hour, however, Cox’s Logan is more Thanos with an Infinity Gauntlet than Rupert Murdoch. Logan has defeated his children before they’ve even walked into the room to confront him. That incompetence, more than the attempted betrayal itself, is what truly enrages him. He disassembles his own progeny like a demonic surgeon, picking them apart one by one and leaving them in a quivering mess in the corner.

Kendall, Shiv, and Roman’s defeat is so total and their pain is so real that it’s a shock that composer Nicholas Brittel’s brilliant soundtrack isn’t replaced by The Rains of Castamere.

[quote] So the team behind this are all Brits, why didn’t they set it in England?

It is set in the UK in part, isn't it? Logan is Scottish. Doesn't the mother live somewhere in the UK? And the episodes have taken place there, in the US and all over the world. The Roy children speak with American accents, but their vocabularly often includes so many Britishisms that I've wondered whether the writers aren't aware they're British (as opposed to American) ways of speaking, or whether they are intentional reminder that these apparently American people are actually multinational with British parents.

The US is important, too, as the base of the media empire because the US is most affected governmentally by the media. Would a Fox News satire work if set in Britain or anywhere else in the English-speaking world? And would the stakes be as high?

They just wouldn't be interesting if they were British.

This is a nitpicky thing, but it kind of bugs me that James Cromwell won't even attempt a Scottish brogue since presumably he spent more time in Scotland than Logan. In every other way, he's great as Logan's dour, humorless, hypocritical brother, but no more than he's on, he should at least try to emulate Brian Cox's accent.

I don't mind that, [R37].

I'm a fan of some Lars Von Trier movies such as Melancholia and Dancer in the Dark, and while it's initially jarring that he casts multinational actors and shoots in locations that look nothing like their supposed settings, there's something about doing that that opens up the stories for me.

In the case of Succession, I see the Roys as a family of godlike oligarchs who have no accountability to any government's laws and no real homeland because they can and do roam anywhere they want. They can assume any (white) national identity they want, or many, or none. It's notable that Logan's accent is not purely Scottish, but more of a mid-Atlantic/trans-Atlantic Scottish-North American hybrid that can't be pinpointed.

His brother on the show, Ewan, chose a Canadian nationality, and the backstory is that Ewan and Logan were poor kids in Scotland and were sent to Quebec, where they were raised. So they have Scottish, English and French linguistic influences.

They would not necessarily speak the same way, either; Ewan chose a Canadian identity, including being more socialist, and Logan chose a more purely conservative U.S. identity, identifying with money and power over all and promoting the fascist far right for financial gain even when he seems to be more Libertarian—anything goes for the rich and lawless.

As I mentioned above, while the kids speak with broad U.S. accents, their use of language has a lot of British (and maybe Canadian? I don't know...) influences, which pins them to their British parents and also shows us that they are "beyond" American.

"Gerri, who he has grown to trust, betrayed him as well"

This is incorrect. Gerri pushed and pushed and pushed Roman to assert himself. Like all the Roy children - at the critical GO moment - he falls back into sibling groupthink.

Don't blame a woman for Roman's problems. Blame the other woman (Siobhan).

Is Logan suppose to be a modern day Andrew Carnegie? Have we ever seen what the Roy family philanthropic endeavors look like?

Logan doesn’t strike me as philanthropic.

I’ve seen it discussed here and elsewhere that Logan blocked the kids by renegotiating the terms of his divorce to somehow change the voting power of the kids.

But isn’t it more likely Logan gave her the flat to get her to vote with him? No tinkering with the voting rights necessary.

And WHY would the kids assume mom would vote with them? She’d been fucking them over all weekend at the wedding.

I don't know who long the bond will last between the Kendall, Shiv and Roman, but I loved that they all came together. That's what Kendall wanted from the start of this season. And he was right. There's strength in their numbers. However, as Tom said, Logan never gets fucked. So, we'll see.

R433 All wealthy people and corporations are for tax, political and PR purposes.

Some, like the Trumps, are 'philanthropic' only in fraudulent self-serving ways, but in most cases super-rich people and corporations engage in 'corporate responsibility' as a cost of doing business and a way of loopholing themselves into becoming richer.

[quote]I don't know who long the bond will last between the Kendall, Shiv and Roman, but I loved that they all came together.

Except Connor, who if you also remember at the start of the season, was the first to say he's out. And in previous seasons when asked how he'd vote, he was saying "whatever you guys decide".

How about Connor rubbing it in to his siblings that Logan is trying for baby with Kerry he really doesn’t rate them.

And Logan making Kerry, the woman he’s fucking, do a bunch of menial tasks?

That’s half the attraction for him, she’s a serf. And he likes that she’s mouthy to the powerful people around him, but he’d drop her like a hot potato if she ever tried to talk back to him, I bet.

Logan’s concern about Roman’s sexual proclivities is interesting, he seems insecure about that. He brings up virility and homophobic slurs a lot. Must be a weak point for him.

He literally told him to go get straightened out. Did he mean like conversion therapy?

I think he meant it more generally, that Roman should line up a mainstream-acceptable piece of tail and have the type of sex with her that would be considered normal in Logan’s world (find an age-appropriate wife and have missionary sex in a bed, pick out a hot mistress who will blow you on a boat, etc) instead of sending dick pics to Gerri.

However, phrasing it that way was certainly intentional by the writers, as a Freudian slip.

[quote]And Logan making Kerry, the woman he’s fucking, do a bunch of menial tasks?

She's his personal assistant. That's the job. The fact that he's fucking her is why she's suddenly walking around with a smirking attitude.

As for the creative team being Brits - not all of them. Mylod has directed for HBO for forever, including quite a few GoT episodes. He's in-house. Armstrong worked on the first season of Veep, with Armando Iannucci. He brought over Tony Roche and Georgia Pritchett from that show, and they are also Brits, but he has some Americans on his writing team like Will Tracy (he played the head writer for Sofi's show). What I hadn't noticed was that David Rasche (Karl) was in In The Loop, another Iannucci project co-penned by Armstrong.

The show aims to skewer American politics as well as business, and New York is the epicenter of big business. Also, as others have noted, the Roys were meant to be an amalgam of the Murdochs and the Redstones, so it was always going to be set in NY. The kids speaking with Britishisms - I'm Canadian, raised in US, by a British mother and Croatian father. I speak with a lot of Britishisms because that's the way my mother spoke. And we would spend summers with family the UK when I was a kid. Its not an unusual thing that the Roy kids would talk that way and I'm sure they spent plenty of time flying back and forth between the UK and the US. Its implied by Lady Caroline that she moved to NY in part for the kids.

I love Succession Twitter.

What Britishisms do Kendall and Roman use? I hadn't noticed.

Can someone please break down the voting machinations?

I remember discussion of the voting when they had to woo Caroline to vote with them awhile back. But it’s all fuzzy.

And I’m not sure how a renegotiated divorce settlement would come into play, unless it was just used as leverage to get Caroline to vote with Logan.

(But did Logan really need leverage? Caroline hates her kids, and the GoJo deal seems to be a good one.)

One thing that immediately came to mind, is Roman asking if Caroline made them eggy pegs.

I'm listening to the Succession podcast now and Frank Rich, who is their executive producer, was a former NYT critic. As a New Yorker, he also sometimes has notes about the New York-ness of it all, and where the Roy kids would eat.

[quote]normal in Logan’s world (find an age-appropriate wife and have missionary sex in a bed, pick out a hot mistress who will blow you on a boat, etc)

So, age appropriate, huh? 40 years younger than you.

All that’s clear is that the divorce agreement required a supermajority provision so getting Caroline to change it would be necessary. But it’s probably not sufficient. Other changes will be required to corporate documents. While they might not prevail, the kids can probably sue to block the merger and any resulting delay/uncertainty might kill the deal. That might be how they achieve the reset.

Wouldn’t the kids’ voting rights be vested now that they are adults? How can their mother retroactively give their rights away? Seems like bad writing.

Her agreement with Logan is the reason they have the voting rights. She can renegotiate it. The concept of “vesting” doesn’t apply to this.

I don't have a head for business so all this wheeling and dealing and negotiations is gibberish to me. I'm in it for the family drama.

The divorce agreement may have been the original source of the rights.

But the kids were minors during the divorce. As adults, they’ve conducted their whole professional careers in reliance on those rights.

I’d also be shocked if the rights haven’t been formalized another way as part of the siblings’ employment packages, Logan’s estate planning, and / or other corporate planning / structuring.

Actually, the concept of vesting does apply in some horribly technical contract law sense. As I said, the kids can certainly sue, but the fact that this is a public company vastly complicates things. They might be entitled to damages of some kind, but they probably can’t stop the merger.

What does Frank Rich have to say about the New York-ness of it all?

Someone posted on another site that Caroline cannot give away the children's votes now that they are vested adults 9as everyone here is saying), but that having a supermajority depends on the three children also having Caroline's own vote, and is she switches it to Logan they no longer have a supermajority. That made sense to me, but they should have explained it more clearly on the show.

[quote] I’d also be shocked if the rights haven’t been formalized another way as part of the siblings’ employment packages, Logan’s estate planning, and / or other corporate planning / structuring.

It would be wrong! [italic]Shockingly[/italic] wrong!

The “vesting” here has nothing to do with age.

It’s not entirely about age, but age is a factor. Presumably Caroline or some other representative would vote the siblings’ rights when they were minors. But obviously there was a point in time when the siblings started exercising the rights themselves.

I know from experience parents can lose sight of the fact things are no longer theirs to give away.

My dad got into a dispute with his brither in law (my uncle) and basically said “here, take it, we don’t want it!” regarding some assets we inherited from our mother and co-owned with our uncle.

But… it wasn’t his to give away. My brother and I were in our twenties by then. Just one reason my father is a slime badger.

So many DLers have or had miserable relationships with their families.

It’s a plot hole if so many people are confused and/or ready to sue on behalf of the adult children. Best to move on.

I’ve wired in a few family owned businesses (at a considerably lower level than the Roys) and Succession portrays exactly how this fuckery happens. Tons of sibling politicking that makes zero sense to outside observers. Staff always wondering why they’re fighting so hard for positions that—clearly—can’t be personally fulfilling.

Love Succession because it rings so true. I’ve witnessed this— family voluntarily demolishing their self-esteem for the a little power.

I read that Teddy Kennedy wanted to buy a small newspaper in the West and be his own man (even though daddy’s $$ would buy the paper) but his dad said no and made him run for Senate instead.

Knowing that your station in life is 100% due to a parent’s efforts fucks you up but good! Makes for terrific drama.

I wish Logan would figure out a way to get Shiv, Kendal, and Roman on a plane or private vehicle and have it crash (make it look like an accident) and make sure nobody got out alive. Just kill those little ungrateful bastards. The pilot or chauffeur would of course, have to be sacrificed, but Logan has done way worse.

Both this and Billions sometimes get a little hand-wavey with legal or financial details and plots, probably out of combination of the explanation being too tiresome and the show writers not being trust and estate lawyers. But both shows have a bunch of nerd fans who do that stuff for a living and want to fight over the exact details in case there’s a sign of a plot development to come hidden in there somewhere.

Did you copy that from Den Of Geek, r426 of are you writer there?

No, I haven’t heard of that before. It just has struck me watching both shows, including because I find the financial issues on Billions way beyond my abilities, but sometimes laugh at how they portray the legal issues.

Much of it is over my head and far beyond my scope of knowledge and as such, I'm fine with inaccuracies that work for dramatic purposes. It's art/entertainment, not a documentary. I already have to suspend disbelief when I see the family members boarding dual helicopters to fly off to undisclosed locations for clandestine plotting on the next US president, so I don't care much if they improvise laws that work in favor of the drama.

(It's not a documentary!)

[quote]Logan’s concern about Roman’s sexual proclivities is interesting, he seems insecure about that. He brings up virility and homophobic slurs a lot. Must be a weak point for him.

I thought that too; when Logan was taunting Kendall about the death of the waiter, he asked if it was a pick up and "are you a fag?" (or something like that). I thought it was interesting that taunting Kendall about his virility was the lowest blow Logan could think of

Typical insult for men of that generation.

The finale proved to me the Succession writers are like hamsters running in a never-ending wheel.

[quote] Kendall, Shiv, and Roman’s defeat is so total and their pain is so real that it’s a shock that composer Nicholas Brittel’s brilliant soundtrack isn’t replaced by The Rains of Castamere.

Oh for fuck's sake. That's total DL [italic]Mary![/italic]-ish overstatement.

In "The Rains of Castamere" episode of Game of Thrones, several major characters were murdered in cold blood. Here the three children were simply being outwitted in a hostile takeover maneuver. All three children are still independently enormously wealthy, and probably even wealthier now because their stock options will have gone up because of this takeover.

No one is dead, no one has been wiped out, no one has lost his or her career. They just found out their father thinks less of them than they had hoped (which they should have realized, but they were just fooling themselves, and they know he's a piece of shit anyway)), and that they do not have a clear path to running his corporation.

Big fucking deal.

The finale was undoubtedly one of the best episodes of the entire series, especially the writing and acting. Everybody was on their A-game. I loved how Logan mocked Shiv and impersonated her, "No, no, you would need a supermajority!"

One of the fantastic things about Succession is how it can shift in so many tones, comedy, and tragedy, all in one scene.

R471 It's a built-in limitation of the premise in any serial format.

Empire was based on the idea that the father was diagnosed with a deadly degenerative disease and had to figure out who'd run the family business. The show was a hit and so in the end of the first season, he had been misdiagnosed and had a less serious illness with a miraculous new cure! Oy.

Limited series tend to be better quality than most long-running series because they don't have to justify their own existence with convoluted fixes for corners they paint themselves into.

Succession could kill major characters off in succession, but it won't as long as it relies on the family dynamics. They'd really need Skargård or someone else to have the gravitas of Cox to make that happen.

What I loved about the finale was that it didn't blow up anything, kill anyone or have an over the top confrontation. It just ended quietly. With Tom's hand on Shiv's shoulder, asking her if she's OK while she turns pale and looks sick to her stomach as she realizes that Tom betrayed her.

If any moral can be taken from the story, "Don't tell your spouse you don't love them" is a good one. Also, "Don't yell your spouse that just because you don't love them doesn't mean you don't love them is not a sufficent argument to prevent devastating revenge."

MARY!!!

Here’s the Den Of Geek article that r426 quotes, the thesis being that actually nothing all that bad happens and yet it still feels like the end of the world.

It's refreshing to see a young woman not have long hair like the rest and not look anorexic but has curves. I think Sarah Snook is a very good actress.

[quote]With Tom's hand on Shiv's shoulder, asking her if she's OK while she turns pale and looks sick to her stomach as she realizes that Tom betrayed her.

The entire episode had a lot of parallels to The Godfather and that scene absolutely felt like Michael closing the door on Kay's face. They even dressed Tom in a white suit, like Fredo in an alternate wedding.

The sad thing is that Kendall was ready to get out. He was going to cash out, just as his father told him to in the profanity-laced birthday card, and was prepared to never deal with his father again. But his father wouldn't let him go. He's so distraught and adrift that he can't even take care of himself anymore, and the other siblings fear that he might have tried to commit suicide and staging an intervention was heartening to see.

But all it took was for the other two to join forces with him and Kendall is ready to kill his father again.

[quote]They'd really need Skargård or someone else to have the gravitas of Cox to make that happen.

That person was Cherry Jones in season 2. Skarsgård doesn't have it. They should've tried Adrien Brody in that role instead.

R482 Yes, she has the gravitas, as does Hiam Abbass.

I would love for Hiam Abass to come back with more of a focus in S4. Her diminished role was really felt this season.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but the deal has to fall through somehow for the show to even exist next season, doesn't it?

I’m not interested in having any previous characters come back. They were great, but I’m done with them, and it would be lazy writing. We are going to need new and exciting characters and plots to make this series go further. I actually wish it would end now and go out in a high note.

You'll know in a year or two, R484. Speculating won't make get you the answer anymore quickly.

I also wish they would incorporate Hiam Abess more. I’m riveted by her every time she’s on screen - great charisma and mystique. Maybe we’ll get that next season, if Logan baby #5 becomes a reality.

Logan dies and Marcia inherits control because she is the only person he can trust ultimately.

"We talk about 'the game' because it is an elaborate game, really."

I loved the scene in Season 2 when Marcia confronted Rhea Jarrell by asking her if she was tested for STDs.

"He and I still sleep together, so I would be more relaxed to know that you are clean."

"When I lose, the other one will generally lose an eye or so."

I'm sorry, I don't care what anyone says, when Succession flaunts its soap opera bonafides like in that scene, it soars. Maybe that's why Season 2 was the best for me as it was a healthy balance of primetime soap and prestige television, similar to the best of Mad Men.

This episode had nothing to do with The Godfather. Some of these comments are way OTT.

R480, I actually saw a reference to The Godfather Part 2 when Shiv saw Logan greet Tom and she looked almost nauseated by the betrayal. It reminded me of Michael looking nauseated by Fredo’s betrayal.

R481 Yep, they missed a trick not casting Adrien Brody in the Skarsgard role.

Jessica Chastain, Aaron Sorkin and Anne Hathaway. Still no current co-stars but an executive producer belatedly chimed in.

^Chastain's exchange with Variety's Kate Arthur is especially interesting. These people are so thin-skinned.

Everyone hates Anne Hathaway and thinks she is obnoxious. That one could backfire.

What's weirdest to me is that what I'm anxious for next season is really to see if the writers have painted themselves into a corner.

How can they make it believable the children would still spend time around their father after that?

r489's video is from 2018 just two weeks before the pilot premiered on HBO. It appears the cast had issues with Jeremy Strong's process even back then as can be seen when Brian Cox takes a blatant dig at him at 26:50. Only Nicholas Braun kept his game face.

I dunni, I think the article above that says "the kids are all fine" because they'll remain rich however things go is focused on the wrong things. They're not fine. Losing their money is not a looming threat to them as it would be for an average person. They don't live according to the same rules of reality. Their father is godlike to them, and their lives all are dedicated to winning his favor and being anointed by him as The Chosen One. They are all in competition for his love, which he doles out in small doses for his own advantage. He rejected all of them in one fell swoop, and so they did lose everything that matters to them. It's not about losing their financial statuses. They're worshipping a god and they're all hoping to be the next king or queen of Olympus.

R497 I don't need an elaborate justification for all of the kids spending time around their father for the above reason. He's their Sun. They orbit him; it's really their whole world. It's a very mythological type of relationship. If he is godlike to them, then there's no escape and there's no desire to be away from him—only to gain his acceptance at any cost. It's why Kendall's only way out is suicide. I completely buy his psychology, because he's effectively gravitationally bound to his father and he cannot break that bond while he is alive. He'll always be tortured by knowing he is his father's favorite, the surrogate "eldest son" since Connor is inadequate, and the Sun at the center of his universe is in reach, yet he isn't made of the same material and he gets burned every time he gets close to it. His only way out of his dad's orbit is to implode. I think it's psychologically believable.

Siobhan has complicated issues because she is a woman and now because she's been betrayed by the husband she 'doesn't love.' Roman has complicated issues because he's wired wrong, I guess. Both know that they are inferior businesswise to Kendall in their father's eyes for those reasons, and so they resent him and want to see him fail so that they can orbit more closely.

But none will ever be embraced by their father as his successor because he's the center of his own world. He'll die resenting anyone who takes his place. If he loves his kids at all, that may even be a motivation for him in his end-of-life panic to want a non-child to inherit control. Whether the business succeeds or fails, he won't be in control anymore and therefore he will think his business is being destroyed by anyone who gains control. He would end up hating any child of his who took over; that much has been made clear.

Hiam Abbass is Palestinian? I don't know why I thought she's Lebanese.

I've watched a couple of interviews with some cast members and I am struck that Brian Cox's facial expressions are exactly the same as Logan's, and Kiernan Culkin's fidgety, twitchy body language is the same as Roman's. That suggests to me that they were cast (as is usually the case in TV but not always in movies) based in part on their natural behaviors rather than being chameleonlike actors.

I wonder if the same applies to Jeremy Strong or if his method approach stands out particularly among a TV series cast because it's a more typical approach for movie roles.

Hiam Abbass had a great, great moment in that last episode, when she kindly asked Kerry to have an omelette prepared on her return from the wedding, to which Kerry duly acquiesced. Compare this to Roman's earlier request for a Cuba Libre and a club sandwich and her reply was a joking 'Oh, okay. Well, let me, uh, grab a couple of kid's menus and I'll be right back.'

A fucking, basic, simple omelette - it's not the cuisine of billionaires. Humiliating Kerry and reasserting her position in a single, throwaway line. She's not onscreen much, but when she is - Abbass makes the most of it.

Is Marcia still Logan's wife? I'm confused by her absence/irrelevance given her importance in season two.

And yes, Abbass has an extremely magnetic screen presence. It's curious that she hasn't had more prominent roles. She showed in season two that she can be so quietly commanding, and I'd think she would have gotten some juicy roles as a villain and a person of questionable motivations. She would have been perfect in 'The Honourable Woman,' for example, which Maggie Gyllenhaal was great in, but which Abbass would have been perfect for. She can be beneficent or menacing at the same time.

I suspect Harriet Walter could, as well. Her character on Succession is more or less a one-note villain, but I can see her playing someone loving, as well, and that means she could be really dynamic in a good role.

As much as I like Nicole Kidman, Judi Dench, Helen Mirren et al as actresses, there are a few older hidden gems who deserve some bigger roles.

The above mentioned women are superb, and wonderful supporting actresses, but I don’t need them to have more screen time. I watch to see the great and powerful men fight it out for domination.

The show does need more Marcia. In an earlier episode (maybe an earlier season?), they are talking once again about lining up support for this side or that side. And someone says that they need to get Marcia's support. That makes me think Marcia must have some meaningful ownership interest.

I hope S4 pulls Marcia back in some meaningful - and hostile to Logan - way.

R506 - Why would she be hostile to Logan? She’s no dummy; she always knew this was a business transaction, more so than a traditional marriage. Marcia has become a very wealthy woman from this arrangement; trust me she holds no contempt.

Marcia Marcia Marcia!

[quote]Marcia has become a very wealthy woman from this arrangement; trust me she holds no contempt.

She will if Logan knocks up Miss Assistant; fucking around with the help is one thing, but the humiliation of your husband knocking up his assistant? She'll make him pay for that.

As far as the Chastain comments go, I can appreciate that people in the spotlight often feel that they are unfairly perceived and their words are twisted, however, the next time she's hawking one of her mediocre projects, reporters should decline to interview her or give her press to ensure the poor dear isn't subjected to "snark"

My guess for the business drama next season: the kids’ plan in the finale relied on Logan needing a “supermajority” vote of the Board to approve a sale of the company, as opposed to just a regular majority vote. This is why the kids thought even just the three of them banding together could kill the deal with a snap of their fingers and throw Logan under the bus on the network that very night.

Instead, Logan got rid of that supermajority vote requirement through the change to Caroline’s settlement. But that doesn’t mean he won’t need a regular majority vote of the Board. The kids would still be able to block the deal if they could win a majority vote. So we may get the kids going around to the various characters who have voting shares, lobbying them against the deal, while Logan and Skarsgard are trying to woo the Board. Over the past three seasons we’ve met these people - Marcia, Greg’s grandfather, the Stewie and Sandy group, Adrian Brody - so if season 4 is the last season, it will be a wrap up with all those characters and end with a final board vote.

One of the biggest shifts in the last few episodes is how much our little Gregglet has grown.

Emotionally, that is.

He's got confidence and swagger with women now, is much less flustered by Tom's attentions and the line about "who needs a soul anyway" was not something S1 Gregg would have said

All of you predicting future stories....none of you predicted what happened Sunday night so.....

Agree, R512. Everyone here lacks insight.

The unpredictable ending of the series will flash forward like Six Feet Under did, and we will learn that all of Logan's hateful and damaging behavior was rooted in his self-hatred because he could never be himself—until now: Renamed and remade as Morgan Roy, the brave Caitlyn Jenner-type mogul will divide his media empire evenly among his four children, and they will give her a reality show that will chronicle her transformation and self-acceptance journey. Roman will pass the "Baby Bar" after failing several times; Connor will get lip enhancements and become a social media star; Shiv will take over a psychedelics-based personal growth retreat center in a spinoff created by Leanne Moriarty; and Kendall will finally successfully off himself, with his mother hiking up her dress and urinating on his grave in the final scene.

Oops. I should have said SPOILER ALERT!

[quote] so if season 4 is the last season, it will be a wrap up with all those characters and end with a final board vote.

Season 4 is unlikely to be the last as HBO will insist on the minimum 5 of all its classic shows. But Jesse Armstrong already said he won't go beyond 5.

"none of you predicted what happened Sunday night so"

Ahem. I predicted either earlier in this thread, or maybe it was the last one, that Kendall would confess to what he did to the waiter. Granted, I thought it would be on a bigger scale and that he'd turn himself in, which obviously didn't happen - but he did confess to his siblings, which ended up being a pivotal moment in the finale.

Kendall's confession to his siblings could still come up again next season. I was really happy they did it this way, though. All through S2 there were moments that I was hoping Ken would tell one or both siblings what happened, if only to unburden his soul, he was in such anguish. So I was satisfied that he confessed to them. Logan, of course, will probably try to use that to divide them again, so I hope it blows up in his face.

[quote]So we may get the kids going around to the various characters who have voting shares, lobbying them against the deal

We were just talking about Hiam Abass, but I really missed Stewy this season, too. I would love to see him and Kendall planning shit again. I love their dynamic. They were the original ship.

I hope Kendall isn't driven by conscience in the future. That idea doesn't ring true to the series and its family, but his dramatic confession and willingness to laugh off his misdeed with the support of his siblings did. Given their easy dismissal of it, I think their personal amoral code would have cleansed him of his guilt and gotten him back to the sado-masochistic 'normal' family business of hurting one another.

I don’t think the siblings’ reaction to Kendall’s confession is their final word on it. They were making light of it in the moment as an emergency reaction to their brother unraveling before their eyes, and then they were preoccupied with the business dealings. I don’t think it necessarily means they don’t think it’s serious and have moved on from it.

R518 I think Roman and Shiv will both make regular jabs about it, pretending to 'tease' Kendall while using it as leverage to hurt and disempower him.

Still, they literally dismissed the event with jokes and ultimately had a soulless reaction to it. They were alarmed when he said he "killed a kid," but when they learned it was "just" a young waiter who was going to sell Kendall drugs, they truly seemed not to care at all that he died and only cared about rallying their brother. They have familial bonds but they do not have a solid sense of morality.

Daily Mail has an article about Shiv’s terrible wardrobe at Mom’s wedding

Would it kill you to provide a link?

So for me the most satisfying arc would be (and one hopes this is accomplished in season 4, I really don't think there's enough gas for season 5), Kendall, with his sibs support (including Connor) manages an aggressive attack on Logan, finally outsmarting him, destroying him, and WINNING. Logan, meanwhile, is proud of his boy for being such a ruthless shit. That's been telegraphed.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Why isn't Jessica Chastain objecting to poor Shiv being fat/fashioned shamed? Oh, the snark!

Uhhh, R512, I’m the one who predicted that Gojo would acquire Waystar, not merge with it. And I predicted that Logan would team up with Lady Caroline, Marcia, Tom and Geri. Shiv would get the shaft from Tom and Roman would get the shaft from Geri, leaving both out in the cold.

Reading is fundamental.

Linking to the Mail is frowned upon on DL.

I myself don’t have a problem with it, though.

Linking to DL is frowned up on DL.

Fuck the frowning bitches.

Everyone hates Anne Hathaway AND Jessica Chastain.

HOLY SHIT! Sorry all- So late on watching this series- I am on Episode 6 of Season 2. Scrolled straight on through these responses to not see what's going down.

Season 2 is so nearly perfect so far and on par with the greatest seasons of The Sopranos and Mad Men, in my humble opinion.

I work in corporate America and this show leaves me horribly depressed and I have nightmares!

Its excellent. (And honestly as much as I loved the finale episode of Season 1, I found it to be compelling SOAP OPERA. The amount of plot contrivances were just too much to call it perfect.

This season to me is perfect television.

I don’t think Season 2 can ever be topped. God knows Season 3 didn’t come close.

Ah SHIT! R530! I fucking knew it :(

I will savor the next 4 episodes then...

Maybe Season 3 isn’t as good as Season 2 but it’s still entertaining television. I just think the premise is wearing thin. How many different ways can Logan screw his kids over?