NYC: UES vs. UWS

The UES is predominately white, wealthier, less accessible and less commercial.

Theatre folk / riffraff on UWS.

Rich, boring folks on UES.

Transit is better for which?

Historically, the UWS was Jewish and the UES was not. Less true today.

The Gossip Girl families lived on the UES.

R4, I'd say it's about equal for both. The 1, 2 & 3 run along 7th Avenue on the west side and the 4, 5 & 6 run along Lexington Avenue on the east side.

The UES is boring beyond belief and full of old, Jewish widows and their annoying little yorkies The UWS is at least more lively.

UWS has bookends of Lincoln Center and Columbia University. They set the tone.

American Museum of Natural History v. Metropolitan Museum of Art

The Ramble is accessible from both neighborhoods.

Which area has less of THOSE type of people?????

R8, I agree about the UWS being more lively, which is why I've always preferred to live on this side of Manhattan. My friend, who's the complete opposite of me in every way (except that we're both gay men), prefers to live on the east side.

I lived on 75th and Amsterdam for a long time. If I ever move back to NYC, that's the only neighborhood I'd live in.

The UES is boring af.

Transit is about the same.

I live on 79th and Lex in rent control apartment in walking distance to Barney's.

Barney who?

Liberal Jews who are professors and psychotherapists Vs Jappy Jews married to hedge funders.

The UWS has better restaurants and bars

R18 restaurants? The UWS has always been a total wasteland when it comes to good restaurants, and that hasn’t changed.

UES definitely has more, but regardless the best restaurants are almost all downtown. (When I was very little it was midtown, but that changed decades ago)

The UWS is a wasteland for good restaurants.

[quote]I lived on 75th and Amsterdam for a long time. If I ever move back to NYC, that's the only neighborhood I'd live in.

This happens to me too. I've lived in NYC, Pais and Rome. I plan to move back to one of those cities and only want the neighborhoods I was used to, unfashionable as they may be. In Rome, for example, I lived on the outskirts in an area with trees and mostly free-standing houses rather than apartment blocks populated by older families. I do not like the lively areas with great nightlife and tourists. What's wrong with going a little further for a drink?

Fewer, R12.

In terms of transit, I guess no one posting in this thread is aware of the Q train that goes up to 2nd Ave and 96th Street. Been that way for about 4-5 years now.

UWS has more of a homelessness problem than the UES.

[quote]The 1, 2 & 3 run along 7th Avenue on the west side

When they get to W. 59th Street, where the UWS begins, the IRT (1, 2, 3) trains go up Broadway. And there are the IND trains that go up CPW, which is what 8th Avenue turns into at 59th Street/CPS. 7th Avenue would actually go through Central Park, were it to continue above 59th.

UWS is where the families live in NYC. Lots more energy on the UWS. It’s also half the size of the UES

UES is old money. UWS is new money.

What's the average price of a decent condo in both neighborhoods?

Someone I know bought a small one-bedroom in the UES last week for $500k.

When I moved to NYC, I lived on the UES for a year. As I described it at the time, as soon as a person is able, they must move downtown to the UWS (today I’d add Brooklyn) or else resign themselves to their fate as boring, soulless people.

I moved to the UWS and was a thousand times happier. Lots more spirit and personality.

[quote] Historically, the UWS was Jewish and the UES was not. Less true today.

[bold] HIISSS

HISSSSSS

HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

AND YET ANOTHER HISSSSSSSS

We will not accept that the world has changed since we first came to NYC in 1975!!!

Nothing has changed!!! Nothing!!!

And this is Datalounge, so it is still 1987

Hiss!!!

It’s a tired, bullshit belief that there aren’t good restaurants in the UWS.

And the idiot posting about Barney’s - girls she’s long closed.

Harumpph R31

It is still 1987 here at Datalounge

Seinfeld is not even on the air

There are no good restaurants on the UWS except maybe that Cafe Luxembourg place

And Barney's is where many of your fellow DLers both shop and work

Plenty of young people on the UES east of Lexington. It's not all old money types (that's the stereotype.)

UWS is filled with breeders and strollers. I lived there for years and every year it got worse. Drowning in children. People will run you off the sidewalk with strollers and brats. Chaotic on the weekends. Families run the entire neighborhood. It was exhausting and loud and irritating as hell. Also surprising number of tourists.

I moved to the UES once the 2nd Avenue subway was built a few years ago and I love it. Much much quieter. Yes there are families but they are more polite and not as entitled as it felt on the UWS. More single people walking dogs. More elderly people meeting up for coffee and dinner. More neighborhood restaurants. Just more of a neighborhood feeling altogether. It’s also more avenues so it doesn’t feel as packed and frantic as the UWS does. Less homeless people. Less tourists. Beautiful architecture east of Lexington. I couldn’t be happier.

Those of you claiming the UWS is more lively and superior - sure - if you are are married with children. As someone in their early 40s who is neither - I didn’t want to be around that dynamic nonstop. I might as well be in the suburbs or park slope.

To each his own.

Also I got a much better deal on rent (east of Lexington clearly). I was paying $2400 for a shitty walkup studio on the UWS when I decided to move (in the 70s). I got a nice 1BR on the UES for $2100.

R34 I am amazed you can get a one-bedroom in NYC for $2,100 a month. That's what it costs here in D.C., and I've seen so many stories about people paying $4,000 to live in a closet with a toilet and a hot plate in Manhattan.

It’s true that there didn’t used to be many good restaurants on the UWS but that has changed.

Yes, lots of strollers because there are lots of bigger apartments.

It’s become much more congested from when I lived there in the early 90s due to the construction of so many big new buildings. Not sure how much that has degraded quality of life. For someone like me, it’s a pretty stark difference when I visit. (I lived at 69th and Columbus but don’t live there now.)

[quote]I live on 79th and Lex in rent control apartment in walking distance to Barney's.

I live on 79th near Broadway. I can walk to my Barney's. And it's still open.

R15 I live in Murray Hill…within walking distance of B. Altman.

UWS is more family oriented... public transit is on that side is more is stroller friendly.

These are the main differences, circa December 2021

• The UES is larger. There are 9 avenues on the UES vs 6 on the UWS--they're not evenly spaced, but you get the idea

* The UES ends at 96th, where it turns into Spanish/East Harlem, the UWS at 110th, at which point you have Columbia U and Morningside Hts.

• There are many more high rise buildings on the UES, especially east of Lexington, which was once German/Hungarian Yorkville--the high rises replaced tenement style buildings and were largely built from the 1960s to 00s. Those buildings are unloved these days but represent a great real estate bargain and thus people like R28's friend are able to buy 1BRs for $500K

• There are more museums on the UES than UWS

• The Macy's Thanksgiving parade starts on the UWS

• Riverside Park on the UWS is much larger and nicer than Carl Schurz on the UES and now extends all the way down to the Battery (or at least the bike trail does)

• Both have one very widely used subway line (123 and 456) and one not very widely used (CE and Q)

• Lincoln Center is on the UWS, there is nothing comparable on the UES

• There are more private schools on the UES

• The $$$$$ co-ops on CPW are much more in demand these days than the ones on Park or Fifth. The ones on Park, in particular, have developed reputations for being full of elderly busybodies who don't like kids or people under 50 and make the buying process far more invasive and drawn out than necessary.

• Both neighborhoods have lost many of the unique stores that made them special and those stores have been replaced with generic chain stores along with an absurd number of banks and drug stores.

• Most of the liberal/creative types that once lived on the UWS now live in Brooklyn or Washington Heights. Many of the very wealthy people who once lived in the UES now live in SoHo Tribeca or even Brooklyn and the Financial District.

• It is somewhat easier to get to NJ and points west from the UWS, to LI and CT and points northeast from the UES

Aren't there a lot of newer high rise apartments on the UES by York? Is that still considered UES? Yorkville or something like that?

And yes, my psychiatrist had an office on the UES.

For R41

[quote] • There are many more high rise buildings on the UES, especially east of Lexington, which was once German/Hungarian Yorkville--the high rises replaced tenement style buildings and were largely built from the 1960s to 00s. Those buildings are unloved these days but represent a great real estate bargain and thus people like [R28]'s friend are able to buy 1BRs for $500K

R35 - people don’t want to live on the UES (it’s perpetually uncool and people seem to forget about the second avenue subway) and, as such, given all the buildings, there are good deals on rentals. Look at how some of the DLers are even scoffing at it. That’s how lame it is. Even the elder gays roll their eyes. Keeps the neighborhood surprisingly affordable (by ridiculous east coast standards).

Granted it wasn’t a luxury building, but I got a good sized one bedroom in a building with an elevator close to York Avenue. No roaches, no mice, great super. I ended up moving during covid a few blocks up because of deals with the mass NYC exodus and now pay $2300 for a bigger place in a high rise but still within my price range.

I love the neighborhood but I’m an introverted nerdy gay who wanted quiet, safety and close proximity to the park - so I realize the UES wouldn’t appeal to everyone.

I just sold my apartment on the UES. My old building just went from lots of families to young (trust fund kids whose parents bought them the apartment) singles overnight. Apparently, the neighborhood went the same route too. So the UES may not have been cool a few years ago, it doesn't seem to hold true today.

I can't believe how affordable it sounds. One bedrooms from $2,100 to $2,300 in Manhattan near Central Park and MOMA? This flies in the face of everything I've heard about NYC housing costs over the past 20 years. Why does a family need to make $200k there if apartments are that affordable?

The Jefferson UES

Seinfeld UWS

I was in the UWS on Halloween and was really surprised at the number of young families trick-or-treating. Tons of kids and not hoity-toity rich people, so there must be some affordable space for families there.

SMH at DLers

My parents don't look like "hoity-toity rich people" nor did the vast majority of their friends.

It is not particularly affordable. It's just that when they are taking their kids trick or treating, hedge fund managers look like every 35 year old dad.

[quote] Why does a family need to make $200k there if apartments are that affordable?

Because the cost of larger apartments, especially three bedrooms, are much more than that.

The prices you are quoting are are one bedroom apartments that are good for a single person or a couple without kids

R26, not really REAL "old money." It's not like that anymore.

[quote] [R26], not really REAL "old money." It's not like that anymore.

HISSS!!!

Yes it is!!!

You will not deny my my fantasy!!!

I did not memorize the Preppy Handbook for nought!!!

In terms of rent New York isn't that much more expensive than DC r45, well as long as you okay with a small apartment without any modern amenities.

It's the cost to buy property where NY is really crazy. Costs so much to buy anything in the city.

TBH, R52, I was stunned when my friend showed me the listing for their new apartment in the UES and it was only $500k. It's a very small but quite pretty one-bedroom. One-bedrooms in my DC neighborhood start at around $400 and go up to about $650. Most of the ones that are $400k to $450k have community laundry rooms.

Yep UES is a good place to hunt for deals r53. As has been said, it's not a neighborhood that a lot of people want to move to.

I am a boring homebody who likes to wander urban streets and art museums. I'd probably love it.

Also, the UES has been built up with all those massive towers with starter apartments because in the 80s it was a hot neighborhood.

O Vey! vs. "Good Heavens!"

There are a couple of factors R53

As several of us have mentioned, the UES is not all that desirable anymore, especially east of Lexington. Younger people who might buy 1 bedrooms all want to live in Brooklyn or downtown.

That area of the UES has lots of high rises, many from the 60s, 70s, and 80s where the apartments are the rectangles popular during that era - rectangle living/dining room with rectangle bedroom next to it, 8 foot ceilings. Not appealing to someone looking for "New York charm"

OTOH, they are almost always doorman buildings and the apartments are pretty spacious, especially compared to the newer buildings from the 90s, 00s and 10s and often have way more closet space too. You are trading charm for space and safety.

I would also add that many of those blocks in Yorkville still feel like the old NYC, very neighborhoody and not overrun with chain stores. But it's a more middle-aged, middle-class type of NYC, not the edgy type that you get in Brooklyn.

So definitely a good deal.

Showing a link to one that is listed at $515K - I know the building it is right near where I went to school - early 60s building, doorman, very big rooms and lots of storage, but charmless rectangle layout.

Good point too R56 - there is an oversupply of 1BR apartments on the UES because it was the hot "singles/young marrieds" neighborhood back in the day

UWS: women carry canvas NPR tote bags.

UES: women carry quilted Chanel handbags.

How is Yorkville?

ALSO R60:

[quote] I still think Dukakis has a chance to defeat Bush.

[quote] When does the new Pet Shop Boys CD come out?

[quote] I am rushing home tomorrow to catch the finale of Dynasty! Can't wait!

It is physically impossible to get to the UES from the UWS.

The monthly maintenance fees for a 1BR apt is astronomical

Yorkville had always been cheaper and less desirable area because it didn't have convenient transit. Of course now the second avenue subway has changed that r61. Nothing wrong with it, just not not seen as "hip" as downtown and brookyln.

[quote] It is physically impossible to get to the UES from the UWS.

obviously some idiot who has never been to nyc. the MTA buses cross the park easily

"One of the most innovative features of the original design of Central Park are the four subterranean Tranverse Roads that carry traffic across the park unimpeded between the East and West sides of the park. These Transverse Roads at 65th, 79th, 86th and 97th streets"

Of course you can go by bus, but obviously that poster is referring to using the subway r66. Lets be real, people much rather take a train than a bus.

Also this thread reminded me of a scene in Broad City where the main characters learn they have to go to the UES and react in horror. That bit pretty much sums up why it has good deals for Manhattan.

The Upper West Side had an enormous amount of public housing constructed in the 1950s and 1960s - not just lower-income projects but the many Mitchell-Lama buildings on Columbus Avenue, Lincoln Towers, Morningside Gardens, Park West Village, etc. This had the effect of keeping middle-class families in the neighborhood.

On the Upper East Side, once the last el came down in the 1950's, development was primarily privately funded, and many generic postwar (often) white brick apartment buildings went up, staffed with doormen for security. These were designed with a significant number of studio and one-bedroom units, and so attracted couples or singles (particularly the stereotypical 1960s 'career woman') rather than families. And they were market rate rentals, so they were pricier than the UWS.

There’s a big difference between the UES highrises of the 60s/70s/80s (which are mostly nothing to look at and not very desirable) and the ones build from the 90s on - some of which are gorgeous and many of which are now preferred to the white glove prewar co-ops (for a bunch of reasons). Some are predominantly 1-3 bdrms (but still extremely nice ones, and pricey) while other buildings (esp the past 15 years or so) were designed to mimic the grand pre-war buildings with huge apartments and the formal dining rooms, mouldings, etc etc. A lot of I Bankers who would have otherwise gone to Park or 5th etc are now going to these buildings, some of which yes are East of Lex (although it’s really Third not Lex that was historically the “real divide”).

"UES is not all that desirable anymore,..."

Says *YOU*

Have lived on UES for > 20 years and have never seen things so packed.

Much of it has to do with Second Avenue Subway, but also there is a fuck ton of new construction, and more is planned.

Or....

AM Stern's 200 East 83rd is selling out with a such a huge demand people are buying from blueprints or otherwise not seeing units because building isn't complete.

I also would love to know from the UWS pack here what new addition of restaurants they may be talking about - aside from Maison and Jacobs Pickles? Places in the Time Warner Center & Jean Georges but that’s not even “really” the UWS? Once you get into the 70s & 80s there’s really nothing of note (even Isabella’s closed a few years ago) - not to mention it feels especially unsafe there now. Would much rather live downtown or parts of BKLYN - UWS is just about the last place I’d go, except right by Lincoln Center.

Three blocks south and one avenue over Beckford Tower at 80th and Second also did and is doing very well.

Sister building, also new construction "Beckford House" is holding its own...

Another new construction AM Stern building, 150 East 78th is also doing well.

Long story short some of you don't know what the fuck you're talking about in terms of UES not being "desirable".

Every single new construction on UES from 59th to 96th has not only been well received but filled or is filling up rapidly.

Robert AM Stern has a number of buildings all going up at the same time on the UES. It's quite amazing.

AM Stern is one of few that can still do new construction with "pre war" sensibilities well. All over UES instead of glass towers you see going up downtown, Brooklyn and elsewhere you get limestone facades and other efforts to blend into area.

Another new construction on UES. This one replaced several townhouses and is done by Peter Pennoyer

Hon its that that complicated r70, I don't even know what point you are trying to make. That's its a bustling neighborhood with construction? No shit, this is NY.

Look at the average cost of listings in NY, you'll see the UES rents are cheaper than other neighborhoods. Simple right? The market has decided that an apartment in UES is not as desirable as one in other neighborhoods.

R58 That place is nice. I see what you mean about a bit generic but for 500K I would consider it for sure. I see the HOA is close to 2K a month too. So consider that in your budgeting. If I moved back to NYC, I wouldn't live downtown again. Fun when I was young but too much now. I'd love a quiet neighborhood with older people.

In this map, which avenue separates Greenwich Village from the West Village? Sixth? It looks too even to be Seventh, which was my old dividing line.

R79

Rents on UES are "low" because they average into mix rent regulated units of which there are a fuck ton on UES. No, not Lexington west to Fifth, but sure as hell from Lex east to York and East End.

All those old (or ancient) tenement and walk-up buildings are full of rent regulated units. LLs did their best over past few decades to whittle those numbers down, but many still remain.

There's also an oversupply of one bedrooms R82. It's not as if rents on the UES are that much lower either. But as other areas became more popular it no longer commands top dollar;

[quote] The Upper West Side had an enormous amount of public housing constructed in the 1950s and 1960s - not just lower-income projects but the many Mitchell-Lama buildings on Columbus Avenue, Lincoln Towers, Morningside Gardens, Park West Village, etc. This had the effect of keeping middle-class families in the neighborhood.

LOL. Lincoln Towers was never a Mitchell-Lama project, it was always market rate. The buildings went co-op back in the 80s and while they are a good deal for the size of the apartment, they are far from "middle class" housing,-- a 2BR/2BA there recently sold for $1.525MM (see link)

Morningside Gardens, as the name implies, is in Morningside Heights in the West 120s. AND a 3br there is selling for $1.075MM

Park West Village is a rental that's been taken private and a 2BR/1BA is renting there for $5250

The Datalounge is such a font of misinformation. (Though to be fair, Park West was Mitchell-Lama back in 1987....)

DL may be a font of misinformation, but there’s always someone who knows better ready to step into the breach.

" There are many more high rise buildings on the UES, especially east of Lexington, which was once German/Hungarian Yorkville--the high rises replaced tenement style buildings and were largely built from the 1960s to 00s. Those buildings are unloved these days but represent a great real estate bargain and thus people like [R28]'s friend are able to buy 1BRs for $500K"

Huge swaths of UWS are either historical districts or otherwise under various landmark protection. While not impossible it is still very difficult to tear down and build new construction.

Many of the high rise buildings from Lexington east to York went up in 1960', 1970's through 1980's. Third avenue EL train wasn't closed and started to come down until middle of 1950's. Elevated trains tended to depress RE values. Once they were gone (Second avenue EL shut down in 1940's), developers began buying up, and tearing down old building for new.

"There are more museums on the UES than UWS"

Leaving aside purpose built Metropolitan Museum of Art, many of the others on UES are former mansions or townhouses of wealthy. This and or scions of Guggenheim, Vanderbilt and other prominent families were heavily involved in creation. UES simply had and still has concentration of wealth that makes such philanthropy possible.

"Lincoln Center is on the UWS, there is nothing comparable on the UES"

No, and why would there be, more to point we don't want such a thing anyway.

Area that is now Lincoln Center was condemned land deemed as blighted and taken as part of urban renewal.

^it wasn’t “blighted.”

Traditionally it’s been the UES is reserved for the Uber wealthy and kids right out of college while UWS is for upper middle class families.

I lived on the UES for three years when I first got to NYC and was bored to death. (This was before the 2nd Ave subway, which has made life very convenient now). I love living on the UWS—lots more energy and easy to get to parks on either side (Central and Riverside). That said, while there are many gays living on the UWS, there’s no real gay scene. Most of that seems centered in HK, Chelsea, and some left in the Village (all also on the west side).

[quote]Beautiful architecture east of Lexington.

Don't you mean the historical townhouses west of Lexington where the really rich people live, R34?

Yeah the people saying the UES isn't a hot market don't know shit about what's happening in the real estate market.

The UES led NYC in sales.

R32 Except in 1987 Barney’s hadn’t opened the 660 Madison store. It was still a Chelsea landmark.

R33 We friends and I would call that UUEE side, as in Upper Upper East East…aka Yorkville.

It sounds like the best of all worlds is really UES, ideally not east of Lex, but 3rd if you are really pushing it, and you want to be south of Yorkville. Is Yorkville called Yorkville or do you just say UES? Looking at the map you want to be somewhere between 65-80, W, Lex or West. Is this correct? I would want to do UES adjacent live Bev Hills adj.

Would NOT want to do UES adj or the fringes. I want to be in the heartland of the UES for 2500 or less for a small 1 br in a doorman building. Is this doable? Ideally within a 10 min walk to an Equinox, which is easy in NYC. How long is the subway ride to Chelsea?

Mind-blowing for DLers, I know. but two things can be true at the same time: the UES is unpopular with young first-time buyers yet popular with families and other buyers looking for luxury properties.

There isn't tons of inventory on UES in terms of new construction condos compared to say West Village, Tribeca, SoHo, Chelsea, Lower East Side, etc.... What we do have good supply of are co-ops, and not everyone is crazy about such buildings.

What has gone up is skewed largely to luxury or at least higher end. This is a natural by product of high land and other costs in developing new buildings. Also much if not nearly all these new buildings are built as of right, thus they don't have "affordable" or "low income" lottery apartments.

But, is the new construction quality? Does it have the charm and durability of some of those older buildings?

[quote]but two things can be true at the same time: the UES is unpopular with young first-time buyers

Except this isn't true.

R97 is a Vice President at Compass Realty's Lenox Hill branch.

[quote]But, is the new construction quality? Does it have the charm and durability of some of those older buildings?

There are ultra-luxury buildings going up all over Manhattan that are so much better than anything built...at any price... from the 1950s onward.

UES isnt particularly gay, if being close to an area with lots of gay men is important to you.Most areas of the city with a large concentration of gay men like Hells Kitchen and Chelsea are on the West Side. East Village does have some nice gay gathering places but it's a hike from the UES.

If you're single and use apps to hook up, all parts of NYC have available men but those gay-concentrated areas just tend to have more.

Yep r100. Gays are definitely concentrated on the west side of Manhattan. Even Hamilton Heights way up on the west side has a nice little gay community and has been discussed going east-west is not as easy as going north-south.

Much new construction in NYC of past few decades is shit. Billionaires' Row building 432 Park Avenue is one example, but there are many others. Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, etc.. buyers of new condos or renters in same sort of buildings are finding all sorts of issues.

Besides defects quality often just isn't there in terms of construction, fittings and furnishings. A few to several million for an apartment with kitchens and baths that look right out of Home Depot.

Developers are often cutting corners any way they can. Largest way has been using less union or skilled labor in favor of random people off the street. Think those guys (legal or illegal) hanging around Home Depot or other parking lots looking for day labor work.

More:

I’ve lived in nyc all my life and this is how I describe them. UES: reeks of money. UWS: more artsy and more diverse.

^^Of course "all my life" is 77 years and in Queens, so I am basing this on impressions I formed back in the 1970s

You would not have have had a residential building like this built in the 1950s to 2000.

Plenty of gays on UES and East Side of Manhattan in general, always has been...

As often mentioned in this thread East Side from about high 40's through low 60's once had tons of gay bars and restaurants. Famous hustler stroll of 53rd and Third was also in area. Sutton and Beekman Place neighborhoods then and still do attract large numbers of gays.

Tool Box a long time Yorkville gay bar is still open. Then you have Brandy's Piano Bar as well. Both are higher up on the "inclusion" bit than in past, this translates into tons of fraus, but there you are.

Gay themed sports bar opened on UES didn't last very long. But that likely had more to do with declining fortunes of gay bars in general.

Know quite a few elder gays both couples and singles who have lived in UES going back decades. The stories they tell! Am seeing a few gay dads pushing strollers at "Q" subway station on East 86th street.

Westside from Hell's Kitchen through UWS onto parts of Harlem, Washington Heights and Inwood long have had large gay populations. Good part of it (but not all) can be traced to fact West Side is center of Broadway, performing arts, etc..... Back in day and still today if you have a certain fetish (actor, dancer, musician....), you can likely find it on Westside. Then of course there were tons of bars, and a few bookstores with backrooms. Oh and of course the Rambles in Central Park.

R107 -- how could you leave out The Townhouse. I mean if Datalounge were a bar it would be The Townhouse.

Though I guess it is technically a block or two south of the UES

Post went on a bit, so left bits out.

But yes who can forget "Clown House" bar....

A fab reproduction of pre-war architecture on East 79th Street.

Gays on UES are largely what you'd expect to find; largely made up of white (European or adjacent) professionals (doctors, nurses, finance, interior decorators and designers, etc...). Then you have of course WASPs and others from certain backgrounds for whom UES has long been their stomping grounds.

Lots of "art" and auction house queens (of all ages), gallery owners...

East of Lexington in Yorkville you have everything from gay Brazilian dog walkers to NYPD or FDNY..

Going by number of HX or Next mags along with gay club/bar invites one used to see littering streets of UES, there are plenty of gays.

Another thing, people shouldn't read to much into "one bedroom" when describing NYC apartments, and that includes UES or UWS.

On UES just like every where else you have plenty of large studios that have been carved out to create a "one bedroom". This or in say buildings that went up in 1970's or 1980's that "bedroom" often has just enough room for a full or maybe queen sized bed, and that's all.

UES has lousy public transportation. Three Second Avenue subway stops and the Lexington Avenue line. If you're rich enough to live in the neighborhood, you can afford cabs, Uber and Lyft.

R105. Feel better now?

Good point R112

Those buildings of which you speak had studios shaped like rectangles. So there was an L-shaped living/dining area and then a galley kitchen and bathroom filled out the rest of the rectangle.

Many people put walls up to enclose the dining area, which was at the foot of the L and had a window to create a 7 x 10 foot bedroom.

You can usually tell using Street Easy as a couple of the apartments in that line will still be configured as studios.

Old money vs New Money

"Oh and of course the Rambles in Central Park"

Oh, dear

I love the UES. Don't care if other neighborhoods are more artsy or trendy. Would be cool to walk to the Met from your apartment.

I like the UES too, and its not like the UWS is very artsy either. Still prefer the Village though.

Yes, the Village sounds like a cool place.

Everyone loves the village, which is why it has become so expensive.

You hear those stories of some people paying next to nothing due to rent control. Is that still a thing? Can someone inherit rent control?

10 years ago I paid $3000/month for 450 sq ft on one of the best streets in WV. My elder gay neighbors were paying $550-700. One couldn't really make it down the stairs (it was a walk up, and interestingly, all the top floors were bereft of rent control residents) and it was quite depressing to see how these elderly tried to adapt to living in a walk up.

R122, DL posters (recent) have said they have rent-controlled apartments in NYC. (I *think* it was NYC.) IIRC, it was in the financial / retirement type threads.

If I had to guess, no, you can't inherit a rent-controlled lease.

Yet again you fuckers have just proved that every motherfucker on this goddamn motherfucking side is obsessed with New York. The thread started yesterday and there’s already 124 replies for Christ fucking sake can we discus some other city.

Let's talk about Sheboygan

R126 I’m sure you wouldn’t want to talk about Sheboygan since you’re 75 years old ass ran away to New York in the 70s

R124

Oh yes you can dearie...

Rent regulations in NY comes in two forms; rent control and rent stabilized.

In latter and IIRC also former it is possible for a legally married spouse and certain other persons to "succeed" to a lease, but not "inherit". More to point such action can only happen once. Then a new lease must be signed.

How to succeed to a rent regulated apartment in NY, and some listings of RS units.

DL has had threads on one or both of these two NYC fraus who "inherited" rent regulated apartments.

More on rent controlled apartments.

Note, since this article was written new rent laws passed in 2019 changed way rent increases are formulated for rent controlled apartments. Now it is the average of five years of rent stabilized increases for one year leases (IIRC).

Quite honestly don't think many on DL would want to live in a rent controlled apartment.

Given the long tenancy and age of most buildings these RC units are often like something out of Hester Street.

Remember that old woman who was living in Greenwich Village RC walk-up paying $28/month?

some of us don't mind that. you live in the neighborhood, not the apartment

Yawn

That's pretty extreme, R133 (photo at R132). For me personally, no way in hell.

Unless you have a spouse or are otherwise related to someone having one of these mythical < $1000 per month RC apartments, your chances of getting one are nil.

Average age of original tenant or tenants of record is somewhere between 70 and death.

A Thomas Lombardi mentioned in linked article did marry a younger woman. He has since died and she continues to live in apartment though now remarried and with a child (IIRC).

As another poster to this thread mentioned things aren't always what they are cracked up to be.

Yes, rent for these places may be dirt cheap, but also these seniors have very low monthly income.

Then there is fact many of these old RC units are in old to ancient tenement or other walk-up buildings. Doing five or six flights of stairs when one is 20, 30, or even 40 is one thing. At 60, 70, or even 80 is another.

The UES is Ramona Singer and her crypt-keeper friends

You're more likely to be ignored by corrupt, useless politicians on the UWS.

Another thing about these ancient or other apartments with lifer RC or RS tenants, there is a very good chance someone has recently died in there.

Yorkville, West Village, Hell's Kitchen, UWS, etc.... You see a NYPD squad car stationed outside building along with black van from ME's office. For those living in building first clue is often the unmistakable stench of a rotting corpse.

NYC has a very high amount of single people living on their own ( unmarried, divorced, surviving spouse...). Ironically it is rent regulation laws that allow seniors to often age in place (cheap rent), but system does not provide any sort of support network. So unless there is family, city agency or anyone else involved people die as they have lived good part of last years, alone.

Then you have other deaths which also have equally traumatic results for other residents of multifamily NYC housing.

Much of these issues revolving corpses comes from fact if someone dies alone in NYC in their apartment the place is sealed by law. No one can enter (not even LL to clean) until estate goes through probate and or next of kin is located to begin process of settling same.

More on R132's apartment. If you look at the 7 photos, it is a real dump.

[quote]In addition to the lack of most modern conveniences, past landlords also tried to force O’Grady out. “A fire was set at some point,” with the intention of evicting rent-controlled tenants, says Roberta. “Everybody else left except her.”

This is horrifying if it's true.

R137 that’s exactly what it’s become - and that’s the “west of Lex” part. Blech.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Same apartment after renovations...

Rent increased dramatically, and unit is no longer under regulation.

I have a cousin in her 70s who lives in the apartment she was born in, which her parents moved into in 1940. She currently pays around $800/mo for a 7 room apartment with two fireplaces - one in the living room and one in the dining room. Oddly enough, it's a walk-up building, but still, that's an incredible rent. Her landlord, however, has done everything possible to drive her out, from installing a whorehouse in the apartment next door, to keeping her under surveillance and noting whenever she is away from the apartment. She doesn't travel all that much but if they can prove she spends more than 180 days away from the apartment, they will move to terminate the lease.

On the UWS it's very egalitarian. There is financial support and rehabilitation for all and everyone drinks from the common bowl. On the UES you have to face the WASP orthodoxy.

R126 and R127 - You mean this Sheboygan, right?

R121 there are parts of the East Village that are semi affordable.

I see full synagogues and mostly empty Anglican churches on the UES. The best cantor in town is on Park. Times have changed.

That's right R147. The East Village is the best kept secret in Manhattan, living there is CHEAP.

Eh, the East Village is only pretty affordable if you are looking at the LES r147 and 149. Which can still be a pretty gritty area, not great housing stock and is also a pretty loud neighborhood. Not for everyone, but yes good deals can be found in LES.

Yawn Yawn Snooze

I don't know NYC that well, and what I find amazing about this thread is that after 150 replies there is absolutely no consensus as to which one is preferable, more nightlife, type of residents, etc. between UES and UWS. I suppose that makes sense, since different people want different things, but it's just crazy how many opposing opinions there are on each criteria that's brought up in this thread.

R152 UES is prettier, more elegant, nicer to stroll through. UWS has a younger vibe with more nightlife but is not as nice to walk through though its not dangerous or anything.

[quote]I love the neighborhood but I’m an introverted nerdy gay who wanted quiet, safety and close proximity to the park - so I realize the UES wouldn’t appeal to everyone.

I'm the same, and that's why I prefer the UES. I'm not a "fabulous" or trendy gay and the UES is really more my speed. I like the convenience of having everything you need for day-to-day living and it's quiet and peaceful for NYC.

R154 I feel the same about Brooklynn. It's not exactly trendy to say but I'll take Manhattan over any gentrified shithole in Brooklyn no matter how fashionable it may be. Williamsburg has to be the most overrated dump of warehouses in NY history. It has a few interesting stores and bars but honestly, its pretty damn ugly outside of that and Domino Park. Dirty too. Give me the history and beauty of Manhattan any day.*

I've never been impressed with Williamsburg, I think it's very overrated and ugly.

Finally! It took r153 and r155/r156 to provide clear answers. R155 or someone, I wish you'd find the time to give break down the other NYC neighborhoods both in and out of Manhattan with giving a general feel of each. That would help us outsiders looking to move one day.

Old Yorkville , circa 1980's

Domino Park? Is there a Domino's Pizza across the way or something?

Williamsburg/Greenpoint/Bushwick area are my favorite neighborhoods in NYC. Great shops, restaurants, nightlife, gay scene. It’s really beautiful too. Williamsburg has the most to do, Greenpoint is the most neighborhoody, and Bushwick is the edgiest.

Barney Stinson, R16

An apartment on my West Village block was lived in by a woman since 1964. Her studio was $80.02 in 2019. She asked the landlord for $50,000 to move. He gave her $15,000. Three weeks after she was gone, the place was renovated. Rental $3250.

R160 I ñived in Bushwick for 2 years..it is an absolute shit sty and I would cry if I ever had to return.

R159 its named after the Domino Sugar factory that remains (not in use) in the area. It is beautiful with some incredible views of the Manhattan skyline and all the bridges. But as I said, one of the few things worth visiting in Williamsburg imo.

Bushwick and Williamsburg represent the coolest nightlife for a lot of the younger NY crowd. But eldergays are not exactly the demographic that are going to raves at the Brooklyn Mirage.

Quite often rent regulated units in NYC are fast becoming naturally occurring retirement communities (NORC). This despite tenants in question really are better off living somewhere else.

People get 60, 70, 80 or older and require (or should) have things like rails in hallways, grip bars in bathrooms, sit down shower/tub.. Certainly elevators instead of having to walk up three for or more flights of stairs. These sort of things....

Problem is regulated rent is so low and these people often cannot afford to pay for market rate assisted living or other senior housing. Wait list for public senior housing is so long that people actually die long before being called off waitlists.

R165 I'm in my 30's and was in my 20's when WB had its boom and I stiĺl think its overrated. That being said no problem in actually going out there at night but no, I would have no interest in actually living there.

If you want to feel really old, take a walk through Williamsburg. Everyone around you will be under 23.

Is NYC still the place most Americans want live? I know I saw a survey that showed Atlanta is it for most African Americans and there's an exodus down there from most northern cities.

[quote] Atlanta is it for most African Americans and there's an exodus down there from most northern cities.

They think they're going to live like the Atlanta Housewives.

My friend has lived in the same apartment on East 83rd Street for 40 years, but I have never been there. Is it a good neighborhood?

Pussy on the east side

Anal on the west side

On the UWS, fish will fry in the kitchen and beans will burn on the grill

never understood that line, why are you grilling beans?

[quote]Jappy Jews

All those rice cookers!

[quote]never understood that line, why are you grilling beans?

Ja’Net Dubois explained that. She got bored with Wilona and asked Norman Lear for another project to fill in her time. He told her he had a show in the works about a dry cleaner who becomes very successful and moves to Manhattan and that show needed a theme song.

So she wrote one without knowing it was about "The Jeffersons," but I find that hard to believe, but that is what she claimed

Ja’Net revealed that it was about how her own life changed when she moved up. It was about her new home, “a deluxe apartment in the sky” that didn’t smell like fried fish and burnt beans."

But that still leaves the problem of the grill. Who cooks beans on a grill?

She said she wasn’t talking about an outdoor grill. She meant something like a short order grill with a flat top, the kind you flipped burgers on for years, but made for home — one of these things, commonly called a hotplate:

I suppose I'd say "griddle"

R171 East 83rd is the very end of what is traditionally known as the authentic UES and above that is for the poor plebs like me. Yes that is a good neighborhood. Depending on the number it could be a few steps away from the Met.

"I don't know NYC that well, and what I find amazing about this thread is that after 150 replies there is absolutely no consensus as to which one is preferable"

People are different, with different wants and needs.

Really, R178. 20 East 94th street has an asking price of $18.9 million, which makes it affordable for poor plebes. 1130 Fifth Avenue at 94th Street sold for $17.5 million in 2000.

r177

Do you call soda, pop? Do you call your pop, dad? If so, what do you call Dad's Root Beer?

r177

Think George Foreman Grill

Thank you, R178. I looked on Google Street View and it seems like a pleasant street. My friend lives in a rent-controlled apartment, so she must have a great deal, since she's been in the same place for 40 years. And, she did work in the gift shop at the Met, some years back. So I imagine she would just walk to work then.

I thought 96th st. was the end of the UES.

R171, what hundred block does your friend live on? In general, UES blocks between Fifth and Third Avenues will be nicer than the blocks east of Third Avenue. Single and double numeral addresses are generally best, as they are between Fifth and Park Avenues. The 100 blocks between Park and Third are also generally nice. These are where the prewar co-ops are, which until recently were the most sought-out apartments on the east side.

East of Third is what used to be called Yorkville. Much of it was tenement housing for beer factory workers in the early part of the 20th century. Developers have gradually torn down the tenements to build new high-rises.

There are exceptions. East End Avenue is very nice, for example.

Hope this helps.

The prewar co-ops on Fifth and Park aren't as popular as they once were. People want new construction downtown, with all the modern amenities.

The Jeffersons.... movin' on up....to the East side..

[quote]East 83rd is the very end of what is traditionally known as the authentic UES

Not true at all. You know nothing about the UES.

Jfc yes it is 93rd, you're right. What a bunch of prickly bitches.

"Datalounge: A Bunch of Prickly Bitches."

An appropriate tagline.

R189 Idiot, have you ever heard of The Carnegie Hill Historic District?

Kate and Allie lived in Greenwich Village.

Lucy, Ethel, Ricky and Fred lived on the East Side...Upper.

R192 the exterior of "Kate and Ally" house is 72 Bank Street, former home of Marion Tanner. She was the inspiration for "Auntie Mame," written by her nephew, Patrick Dennis.

Boundaries....

Upper East Side: Fifth Avenue to East River, 59th to 96th Street. Upper West Side: Hudson River to Central Park West, 59th to 110th Street

R185 - she lives in the 300 block, so she's just outside the "nice zone." But she would have been walking through the "nice zone" on her way to her job at the Met. She must like it where she lives as she has stayed put for 40 years. She's not "old money" and all that; she's a former ballet dancer. I imagine she must walk and take transit everywhere. I've never been to NYC so I'd like to visit her someday. It seems like a completely different world than where I live (high desert of central Nevada).

[quote] high desert of central Nevada

Central Nevada is basically empty. Do you live in Tonopah? If you do you should start a thread on it. It's unique and many Dataloungers would be interested to ask you questions about it.

No, Goldfield, which is even weirder than Tonopah.

East of Third Avenue, townhouses generally give way to tenement buildings, though their condition may vary. Some have been rehabbed and are quite nice, though still lacking elevators. These were, in past times, the homes of German, Hungarian and Czech immigrants who populated the East 80s. Yet there are still some very beautiful blocks of townhouses east of Third Avenue, such as 87th Street, which is one of the loveliest streets on the UES.

Are you the only gay guy in Goldfield, R198?

[quote] so she's just outside the "nice zone."

SMH

The 300 block is between 1st and 2nd.

The "nice zone" ends at Lex

The area between 86th and 96th west of Lexington, Carnegie Hill, is one of the more desirable and family friendly parts of the UES. Growing up, my school was on 89th b/w Park and Lex and Madison was (and still largely is) filled with stores catering to kids and families.

The reason those blocks east of 3rd were tenements was that years ago there were elevated trains on 3rd and 2nd--that's why those avenues are so wide.

All of the professors and psychologists you all think live on the UWS are retired, dead or moved to Brooklyn.

The main advantage to the UWS is that you have two parks--Central and Riverside. But it's gotten very expensive because there isn't much of that tenement housing.

Both areas, as I noted in another thread, are rapidly losing many of the stores that made them unique (RIP H&H) but the blocks near the hospitals on the UES and then closer to E. End and York in the 80s and 90s still retain that old neighborhood feel, more so than on the UWS.

What a difference a period can make. That should read:

Growing up, my school was on 89th b/w Park and Lex. Madison in the high 80s and 90s was (and still largely is) filled with stores catering to kids and families.

The rule of thumb in Manhattan for safety is don't go north of 96th, west of 9th, or east of Avenue A.

[quote] The rule of thumb in Manhattan for safety is don't go north of 96th, west of 9th, or east of Avenue A.

[bold] Tell me Datalounge is frozen in amber in 1987 without telling the that Datalounge in frozen in amber in 1987

The Upper East includes Lenox Hill, Carnegie Hill and Yorkville.

r203 is Jane Sterling.

The Upper West Side isn't divided neighborhoods.

R207 True it's not divided into neighborhoods.

But its avenues all have a very different feel. CPW, Riverside and West End are quite different from Amsterdam and from B'way.

[quote]The rule of thumb in Manhattan for safety is don't go north of 96th, west of 9th, or east of Avenue A.

Wow that is really dated.

I liked living between West End and RSD in the 70s, in the '70s, when I was in school. I did all my shopping on Broadway, and it was exceptionally cruisy. There was a shitload of dong on offer, there and then.

[quote]R171, what hundred block does your friend live on? In general, UES blocks between Fifth and Third Avenues will be nicer than the blocks east of Third Avenue. Single and double numeral addresses are generally best, as they are between Fifth and Park Avenues.

R185, my guess is 99% of DLers and their families and friends can't afford to live on the Upper East Side between Fifth and Park Avenue. Just sayin'.

By the way, the part of the Upper East Side that has expensive, historical townhouses gets narrower as you go north eg. if you go west from Fifth Avenue on 95th Street, the buildings start to look more humble more quickly than in the 60s or 70s.

At least you are admitting your experiences are 40-50 years old R210

UWS might not have official names but people do talk about the "Lincoln Square area" or just the "70s" or the "90s" (referring to street numbers, not decades) and the vibe around 74th St is different than around 94th.

That said, R208 is correct, Columbus and Amsterdam are the "commercial" streets, Bdwy is the main street and Riverside, WEA and CPW were more residential. UWS is also a lot narrower than UES, from river to Central Park

^^I take that back. REALTORS talk about the Lincoln Square area.

Actual people will say they "live near Lincoln Center" in they are in the W 60s

[quote]By the way, the part of the Upper East Side that has expensive, historical townhouses gets narrower as you go north eg. if you go west from Fifth Avenue

How do you do that, actually, "go west from Fifth Avenue" on the UES?

Oops, silly me. I meant east from Fifth Avenue. If you go west, you'll just see trees and grass.

[quote]The 100 blocks between Park and Third are also generally nice. These are where the prewar co-ops are, which until recently were the most sought-out apartments on the east side.

I thought the most sought after prewar co-ops were between Fifth and Park:

820, 834 and 960 on Fifth Avenue 720 and 740 Park Avenue

Thanks for catching that, r216. I wrote that poorly. That sentence should have modified this one:

[quote]Single and double numeral addresses are generally best, as they are between Fifth and Park Avenues.

There are nice co-op buildings between Park and Third, but I did mean the blocks between Fifth and Park Avenues.

Sorry my mistake. Friend lives in the 300 block of E. 83rd St., so it's between 1st Ave. and 2nd. Ave. I've neverver been there so I don't know the area. From Google it appears to be mainly old brick houses and/or apartment buildings.

R200 - no, I am not the only gay man. The population varies between 200 in the winter and 300 in the summer. I know of at least 5 other gay men, plus myself and my husband. I know of at least 2 gay women. Certainly others that are "curious" at most. But primarily straight families; it's a very conservative area so any others are deeply closeted. But no homophobia has ever been expressed.

First of all pre-war multi-family runs mainly from *Fifth* to *Park* with a small number along Lexington.

Next as stated numerous times dividing line between rich heartland of UES and "Yorkville" (or no man's land far as some were concerned) was Third avenue. Elevated trains ran along which depressed real estate values and otherwise made living under or near less desirable for certain persons.

Blocks between Lexington and Third or even Park and Third once "service" blocks in that stables and later garages were located on these streets. Many of those former carriage houses have been turned into charming private homes.

Area from 60th to about 77th from Fifth to East River is Lenox Hill, an area that comprises everything from pre-war grand multi-family to mansions to ancient walk-up tenements.

Between Lexington and Third from 60's through 83rd there are still many beautiful townhouses and mansions (Madonna lives in one at 81st just off Lexington). Over years many were broken up into apartments, but over past decade or so good number have been converted back to single family residences.

Starting at 84th and Third things begin to narrow, with "money" pulling back to blocks between Lexington and Fifth. This carries onward north above 86th street into Carnegie Hill until you reach 96th street. Above 96th on UES the ground literally drops out and resulting Metro North RR ROW becomes dividing line. Money is pretty much restricted to blocks between Fifth and Madison until you approach Mount Sinai hospital campus starting at 105th street. Then Fifth is all there is and even then closer you get to Central Park North you've reached Harlem.

From my favourite Manhattan building blog...

Virtual walking tour of UES courtesy of again my favourite blog, Daytonian in Manhattan.

You can switch things around by merely choosing another area of Manhattan.

UWS has its own musical about it, while the UES was home to Lyle, Lyle, Crocodile and Harriet the Spy.

R218

300 block of East 83rd is standard Yorkville, rows of tenements mixed with modern (from 1970's or so) elevator buildings. Plenty of rats however....

Adding on..

South east corner of East 83rd and Second was emptied out, and is in process of being torn down. A new luxury condo is going up in its place. Ditto across the street at south west corner of 83rd and Second.

All this activity is spurred by opening of Second Avenue subway which has back entrance/exit at 83rd and that avenue.

All of those old tenement buildings in Yorkville are going to be torn down for high rises.

Residents fought building of Second avenue subway back in 1960's and 1970's out of fears of what it would do to Yorkville/Lenox Hill areas. Happily for them though work was begun national and NYC's fiscal/economic issues caused the project to cease.

Now that SAS is at least up in running those fears are now being realized.

Yorkville now is far more accessible transit wise and once long forgotten sleepy Yorkville between Second and First (or even York) avenues is seeing fuck tons of development. All those five to six story old walk-up buildings along Third, Second, First and even York avenue are coming down by half or full blocks full.

To understand how things work requires knowledge of NYC's complex zoning regulations. Basically and in nutshell many of those old buildings along avenues mentioned have tons of unused air rights. That is lots can accommodate buildings far taller than what is there currently. Using this floor to area ratio (FAR) a developer only needs say half or bit more of lots on an avenue. He then can increase building height by buying air rights along either side of adjacent lots.

You get what is seen up and down avenues not just on UES but UWS and other areas of Manhattan as well. Tall buildings that take up half or more of block front on avenue, but leaving older five or six story buildings on balance of block. Because they've likely sold their air rights, those old five or six floor buildings are now frozen in time. Redevelopment of those lots isn't economically feasible because you cannot build anything taller than that exists. Well it is possible with a zoning variance from city, but those aren't easy to get.

Just this week Naftali Group bought nearly entire block on Second between 77th and 78th for $75 million USD. Buildings have long since been emptied out of commercial and residential tenants.

Not just Second, but Third avenue is seeing action as well with remaining old tenement buildings coming down.

Block between 76th and 75th on Third is largely coming down (IIRC building with J.G. Mellon restaurant/bar has been spared). This part of Third is just around corner and few streets up from Second avenue subway at 72nd.

R229 yeah that’s the part that pisses me off the most (admittedly selfishly). I remember when Atlantic Grill and Annie’s and all these great restaurants (and UES mainstays) closed because they were bought out. Now HARU is gone too. I’m glad Googies is long closed or that Naftali development would piss the shit out of me, too.

Heyday of Atlantic Grill was a bit before my time, but it still was a great spot even towards last days.

Now closing if Isabella's on UWS, that was a blow.

What if your apartment is ON 96th Street? Are you still in danger? Seems like an area the shade of gray.

Maybe a few decades ago much of 96th might have been considered sketchy. but today things are fine.

Only suspect part of 96th would be from Second going towards FDR Drive. Between traffic going onto that highway and element that comes down from Spanish Harlem things can get dicey. There is a homeless shelter and some other supportive housing in area as well.

Area from 96th north towards Metropolitan hospital and beyond has been gentrifying for some time. Arrival of Second avenue subway stop at 96th has sped things along. Good friend's husband is a doctor at Mount Sinai and they live around 102nd and First, report no problems. Mind you they do keep their guard up as anyone should in Manhattan.

In a decade or so when SAS is extended north to 125th street area of Spanish/Italian Harlem will gentrify further. Yes, you have good number of NYCHA housing projects in area, and they aren't going anywhere, but still....

[quote] no, I am not the only gay man. The population varies between 200 in the winter and 300 in the summer. I know of at least 5 other gay men, plus myself and my husband. I know of at least 2 gay women.

Interesting, R219. That's at least 9 out of 200 or nearly 5%. By those figures, Goldfield has a higher gay percentage of the population than NYC or Los Angeles.

Spanish Harlem is one of the few places in Manhattan that I still consider pretty dangerous and avoid r234. That area has a while to go before it would be considered gentrified.

Sure you can buy a small condo in the UES for 500k but the HOA fees are about 2k so how is this affordable again?

[quote] Yes, you have good number of NYCHA housing projects in area, and they aren't going anywhere

Thats a huge caveat.

R237

Or you can spend $3,495,000 for two bedroom with two and one-half bathroom new construction in brand new amenity filled luxury UES building.

Your monthly taxes (deductible) are $2,258, with monthly maintenance of $1,977.

While it may pain some to hear this, examples like above show why these new UES buildings are selling very well. There those (and going by StreetEasy a very good number) who can pay $2-$4 million USD or more in cash.

New York taxes nearly everything except breathing, and thus when you purchase a property with debt, there is a tax on recording mortgage which is public information. When you see sales recorded without such public information it usually indicates all cash deal.

Come January 2022 there is likely to be more of such things as nearly all Wall Street firms are reporting since 2021 was such a wonderful year bonuses are going to be off the charts.

What happened to that garbage thing they were gonna put in on UES? I remember there were protests about it..

UES waste transfer station opened back in March 2019.

City essentially told UES residents to get over it, the thing was going to happen in their wealthy and leafy enclave no matter how much they moaned. And it did.....

In any event UES has moved onto another outrage, expansion of NY Blood Center building.

NIMBYs lost that battle as well....

Always loved prime UES - Fifth to Lex. Much nicer than UWS. It is subjective. I know lots of people who love UWS. But to me it’s not nearly as pretty as UES. Perhaps less “sterile” but to me that just means more projects and homeless. I would happily choose UES - even east of Third - for best deals in NyC. I’ll never understand people paying more to live in Brooklyn than Manhattan.

Lexington Ave from Hunter College to the mid 70s is quite nice. lots of small, cute shops...kind of like G. village downtown but of course lots of stores have closed due to pandemic. I only walk up to mid 70s...maybe it's even nice further up from there.

Once again this proves that everybody lives in New York on here or wishes they did.

DL has a lot of California people.

A girl I grew up with has lived on E. 96th between Madison and Park (even-numbered side) most of her adult life. It's a somewhat typical prewar highrise. She and her husband are two non-handbook preppies. She has old money credentials. All us kids had to be super nice to her WASP/Greenwich grandmother, who kept close hold of the family purse strings, when she would visit in New Jersey every Christmas.

She and her husband met at Columbia, before which she went to boarding school in CT. As someone mentioned earlier, the neighborhood is called Carnegie Hill.

bunch of fucking rich tarts

UES = Clothes and closets IWS= Books and bookshelves

[quote] UES = Clothes and closets IWS= Books and bookshelves

[bold] Tell me Datalounge is frozen in amber in 1987 without telling me that Datalounge is frozen in amber in 1987.

[/bold] I was born on the UWS in 1985, grew up there and live there now.

That stereotype of professors and psychiatrists and other "intellectual Jews" had been fading by the time I was born and certainly is no longer the case.

Yes, there may be a few 90 year old former Columbia professors here and there, but the UWS is now mostly the same mix of lawyers, bankers, doctors and some well paid tech bros that you find on the UES, Given the prices, it has to be that way.

UWS may be a little more low key, but only a little. Though the Goldman guys on the UWS side like to think of themselves as being more laid back than the ones on the East Side. Though the ones who really want to envision themselves as hipsters-who-just-happen-to-work-in-finance types are living in Brooklyn, in some funky brownstone they spent several million to restore so they can bore guests with stories about the details. (BTDT)

I've always preferred the UES. Well, at least until Carter took a nosedive off...oh, never mind. I shouldn't have brought it up.

The UWS has more eateries and has more of my Jewish friends.

R227 "Redevelopment of those lots isn't economically feasible because you cannot build anything taller than that exists. Well it is possible with a zoning variance from city, but those aren't easy to get."

Zoning variances permits are significantly more common today than they were even 10-20 years ago. That's the main reason for hyper-gentrification we are seeing the last 20 years in all 5 boroughs.

So if a whole block is sold and all the buildings torn down to build a high rise, what happens to the people who live there? Undoubtedly some are on fixed incomes and with rent control. Do they just get kicked out to fend for themselves? Or is there some kind of city program that helps them?

R254

Market rate tenants are told to hit the bricks, their lease isn't being renewed...

Rent regulated tenants are more difficult. They have to be paid to get out or otherwise cannot be touched.

For some insane reason hotels built before 1964 fall under rent regulation in NYC. If someone remains for certain number of days, they can and must be granted a lease. This means again such tenants cannot be touched, if developer wants to tear down a building there is a legal procedure that explicitly spells out how things roll.

Zeckendorf brothers bought the old Mayflower hotel on Central Park West in 2004 with eye to tear down the place and redevelop. There were a good number of lifer rent regulated tenants in hotel that by law became responsibility of Zeckenforf brothers to relocate and compensate if they wanted them out.

Few of last holdouts were all elderly bachelors including Arthur MacArthur IV (living under alias David Jordan. Mr. Jordan proved easily dealt with; he accepted a generous offer, took that money and spent $650k on a new condo apartment (first and last time his name had appeared in public records in ages), and promptly went back to being anonymous and living a quiet life.

Final tenant Herbert Sukenik proved far more difficult. In end after bitter and somewhat testy negotiations Mr. Sukenik finally left the Mayflower hotel, he did so $17 *million* dollars richer. That was what Zeckendorfs had to pay someone to get back their own property and start redevelopment.

Mr. Sukenik moved just down Central Park a bit to the Essex House where he once again became a recluse. He didn't live long to enough all that new found wealth, dying in 2011

These sort of negotiations play out wherever there are rent regulated tenants and landlord wants to redevelop property.

Link for R255 didn't take. Trying again...

Even market rate tenants can strike a huge payday when developer wants to tear down a building.

A gay couple living in an ancient and decrepit Hell's Kitchen tenement got $20 million to vacate their apartment from Tishman Speyer. They were holding up huge Hudson Yards development plan, and got lawyered up with the best.

Not all tenants accept buyout offers, and or others play hard ball so long developer simply changes gears.

Lone RS tenant was holding up Extell's massive project on East 86th and Second ave, along with owners of final lone building Extell didn't own. Few weeks ago developer simply said "fuck it", and filed plans to build around the two buildings.

Back to the 80s again, Esquire magazine published a list of the 42 best and most sought after addresses in Manhattan known as the "Good Buildings", but in reality just trophy buildings. The criteria was based on history, architect, past and (at the time) present residents, amenities, and the strictness of the Boards who held power over who was worthy and who was not.

The River House was considered the most desirable on the list, but the toughest to get into were One Sutton Place South where the saccharine dragon Betty Sherrill stood guard, 810 Fifth Avenue with Jayne Wrightsman ruling over her kingdom, and 2 East 67th Street had the ex-husband of actress Dixie Carter making sure only the "right sort of people" got in.

There were some buildings that were surprisingly omitted from the list. And nothing above East 86 on Fifth Avenue was considered fashionable or anything on Park Avenue above 76th Street. NO buildings on the UWS made the list. None.

If a new list of 42 were made today, it's doubtful that even half from the old list would even qualify.

And for you Bouvier girls fans, both Jackie and Lee lived (and died) in apartments on the list of Good Buildings.

There is (was?) a Macy's somewhere in Queens that is round in shape because someone who lived in a small house the developer wanted to buy would not move and to they redesigned the store and built around them.

Do any of you know the story behind that building on the SW corner of 57th and 9th? (Sort of near Hudson Hotel and across from Park Vendome)

It's been empty since I was in high school (early 00s), probably much longer. Can there still be tenants in there who won't move? Or is something else going on?

Woody Allen lives at 116 E. 70th Street. In one of the Alec Baldwin threads, there were links to AB & wife entering an apartment that turned out to be Woody Allen's. The exterior (in the videos) was beautiful. Here's a link to some info about Woody Allen's apartment. About 6 photos in the article.

Fascinating story, R255, R256, about Herbert Sukenik making $17 million after living in a 350 square foot, filthy apartment with mold growing up the walls for decades. I had no idea such things went on.

Does Woody Allen have a rumpus room?

Do the Good Buildings on the Upper East Side constitute "a world of ticking clocks?"

Wow we’re up to 264! New York New York New York New York Jesus H Christ

The woes of the traditional Good Buildings. Susan Gutfreund has a 22 room apartment in 834 Fifth Avenue, reputedly the best in the building, but can’t seem to find a buyer even after slashing the asking price from $120 million to $68 million.

I had to laugh at the name of the WASP rich lady of a certain age at the beginning of the article - Muffie Potter Aston.

[quote]Here's a link to some info about Woody Allen's apartment.

Woody Allen does not live in an "apartment".

The Parc Vendome on 57th is haunted to the rafters. TONS of paranormal activity.

Muffie Potter Aston is a DL legend.

Wealthy residents of UES once joked they only went to the West Side of Manhattan to leave the country. This of course was when crossing Atlantic or getting anyplace else was done by ship.

Years ago now an Irish girl shocked (and rocked) UES when she wrote a tell all book about not only her charges but their families. Called "The Nanny Diaries" it was a best selling book that went onto become a film and sequel.

Mother of one of her charges laid down rules from day one. Her children were not allowed to go to UWS, the area was considered socially inferior....

At first those grand pre-war UES building in the rich heart land of UES wouldn't allow Jews. As WASPS with enough money (and or desire) to buy into those co-ops dwindled Jews gained a foothold.

Aged WASPS at River House and east side co-ops know their numbers are dropping off with each generation. Even their children or grandchildren don't want to live in those restricted buildings. So what's next?

Already we've seen Russians and other East Europeans. But sooner or later even that well will run dry. Well at least of those with not so shady backgrounds that can pass muster with board.

Entertainment people who once may have wanted "in", largely now are downtown in Chelsea, Tribeca, West Village, SoHo, etc... Ditto much of the tech money as well.

What is also really killing these pre-war co-ops is the fuck ton of new construction luxury condos in Manhattan, now including UES. True they aren't on Fifth, Park or Madison, (well a few are on latter), but many are close enough and or people just don't care.

[QUOTE]Few of last holdouts were all elderly bachelors including Arthur MacArthur IV (living under alias David Jordan. Mr. Jordan proved easily dealt with; he accepted a generous offer, took that money and spent $650k on a new condo apartment (first and last time his name had appeared in public records in ages), and promptly went back to being anonymous and living a quiet life.

Back in the late 70s, my BF and I were in a framing store off Broadway above 72nd Street. We had recently visited friends who lived in Norfolk and had seen the MacArthur Memorial, which is a rather distinctive (for Norfolk) Greek revival building.

Waiting in the store with us was a tall man who looked over at us and smiled, in a way that was almost cruisey. I noticed he was holding a photo of himself with an older woman in front of that building. I asked him if that was in fact the MacArthur Memorial, and he said "yes, that's me with Jean". We made additional small talk and then both of us we were waited on, and we said a polite goodbye. Since he was the spitting image of Gen. MacArthur, we realized we'd had a rare sighting of his reclusive son, who even back then was known to be gay.

Well I do know someone who still won't go above 96th. Raised in the city, Jewish. Classic Manhattanite woman. It has caused her sacrifices because she couldn't go to the games at Yankee Stadium because that would mean taking the train above 96th. But she sticks to her rule.

Do the waitresses at The Saloon still wear roller-skates?

This YouTuber does a walking tour of East 83rd Street

R271, One of the big problems with co-ops is the power-mad co-op boards. The personal and financial grilling they put applicants through is horrible. No one is ever good enough for them. You don’t have that issue with condos.

Those white brick (limestone?) buildings on the UES are the ugliest buildings in the city. They ruin the aesthetic of the UES for me.

[quote]What is also really killing these pre-war co-ops is the fuck ton of new construction luxury condos in Manhattan, now including UES. True they aren't on Fifth, Park or Madison, (well a few are on latter), but many are close enough and or people just don't care.

Yes, the "old guard" buildings are not as desirable as they once were. Modern people want buildings with all the modern amenities.

Why pay top dollar when you don't even have a gym in the building, for starters? People today aren't going to settle for that.

R277

Those are white brick buildings. About 200 or so went up in 1950's through 1960's when craze fizzled out.

When time to repoint brickwork some buildings are replacing white with traditional red brick.

More:

Still more:

In the '70s the UES was the only place you could live in Manhattan. Midtown and the Village were safe in the daytime. But if you lived anywhere but the UES you were literally taking your life in your own hands.

Finally someone breaks down how those white brick buildings came to exist.

Sorry, wrong link....

white brick = big dick

Oh, please, r282. I didn't 'survive,' I thrived.

Yes, R282, that’s a bit of a stretch. For one thing, even the UES could be unsafe. I know someone who, in 1978, was robbed at spear point on Fifth Avenue. (No, not with a crude wooden spear, but with the fancy kind used by divers.) And not just on Fifth Avenue, on Fifth Avenue in the low eighties.

Great info guys. I've lived in UES in the 70's, the West Village in the 80's and Hudson Heights (!) since the 90's, hubby and I lucked out with a big apartment in a great area, getting better by the month. We WFH and love it here for the parks which have all been refurbished, there are sketchy blocks mostly west of Broadway but I wouldn't live anyplace else unless my income quintupled.

PS I hate driving/cars/gas stations/parking etc. I really don't know what we'll do if we can't walk anymore, move to FL and ride around in a golf cart? Ugg, getting old sucks.

[quote] We WFH

What does that mean?

[quote]Yes, the "old guard" buildings are not as desirable as they once were.

Apartments in those buildings are increasing in value just as always.

Lincoln Towers on the UWS is a great example of white brick buildings from that era. They are very big apartments for post-war as are many of the white brick buildings.

My grandmother lives in a building on Park that is one of the Jewish Park Avenue buildings. (My mother grew up in that apartment)

The problem with her building and the WASPy ones too is as others have mentioned--boards full of retirees who don't like change of any sort and so are overly invasive with applicants finances. They don't want to spend money on things like gyms or children's playrooms because they themselves won;t use them.

At some level I get it--they've all lived there and known each other forever.

work from home

[R271], One of the big problems with co-ops is the power-mad co-op boards. The personal and financial grilling they put applicants through is horrible. No one is ever good enough for them. You don’t have that issue with condos.

Total bullshit. I was on a coop board on UES for several years and reviewed maybe a dozen applicants. the board only turned down one. an 86 year old man with several children wanted to buy a apt. for his ne'er do well 40 something loser son who had no assets or income of his own ..

White brick still looks great at Manhattan House.

Built in 1950, it is the building that started the trend.

R293, that is your experience, but there are many, many stories about the onerous nature of the application process. I know several people, all of them wealthy and presentable, who were rejected by co-op boards. A relative who has applied to buy a studio apartment was just told that all of her letters of recommendation needed to be rewritten to be “more detailed.” Apparently they want to hear stories about how she saved someone’s dog from drowning, that story of thing.

Living on the Upper West Side is not for sissies.

The pain and suffering are more than most can deal with.

I remember my one night stand with a staff member of Columbia, on the UWS. One of those leftist clowns with a portrait of Castro or another one of those South American dictators on the walls. Radical chic.

Miriam "Muffie" Potter Aston

In the 1970s, in our UWS artists' collective kibbutz, one of our comrades brought a homecooked soup that was dedicated to a new band of freedom fighters in Asia, the Khmer Rouge. We slopped it down heartily. Little did we know, there were BONES in that soup.

Do the Jews living in the UES have a defined eruv?

apparently

[quote]Total bullshit. I was on a coop board on UES for several years and reviewed maybe a dozen applicants. the board only turned down one. an 86 year old man with several children wanted to buy a apt. for his ne'er do well 40 something loser son who had no assets or income of his own ..

R293, we're talking about the co-op boards for the grand, prestigious apartment buildings that many very wealthy people were clamoring to get into (at least in the past), eg. 834 Fifth Avenue, 740 Park Avenue - the places where socialites like Carroll Petrie, Susan Gutfreund, Jayne Wrightsman lived, places where one apartment can take up a whole floor.

You bitches are just jealous.....

This is Datalounge you fucks

Where, like R203, a single one-off experience is enough to make a sweeping generalization

Neither are ideal for radical direct action. Who needs them them when you can be agitating against The Man in Thompkins Square Park or Bushwick?

What single experience R304? It was common knowledge for decades.

What’s up with the 5th Ave. Synagogue and then a few blocks away the huge Central Synagogue if the Jews were unwelcome on the UES?

Now we’re up to 307 New York New York New York New York New York New York New York New York

Which side has the best restaurants?

Yeah! We're halfway there. Too bad OP didn't include a poll.

First person stories of 6 of the residents.

Let’s try to make it to 500 in the next 2 hours… I’m sure we can do it .. we’re all obsessed New Yorkers.. no other city exists and we know it.

550 Park Avenue is supposed to be one of Tom Wolfe's Good Buildings that's in decline, according to the article in the NY Post at R266. I wouldn't mind living in this apartment at 550 Park.

Because those were only built in the last 20 or 30 years, R307.

The most dangerous neighborhoods - East NY, Brownsville - are far, far away from the UES and Harlem. Even E Harlem pales in comparison to what is going on down on the L.

Well that's what happens when you ignore prostitution and let people out without having to post bail. Enjoy, R314.

Inwood is dicey. It can be fine one block and terrible the next.

How's Mott Haven?

Inwood has been gentrifying rapidly over the past 15 years. It is not dicey.

R317 Do you even read the NYT? Pay attention - huge development projects going on in MH.

inward was never dicey. wash heights maybe but not inward

Loving this thread.

I actually love the blocks in Yorkville in the high 70s and 80s between 1st and York and then York and East End. With the Q train, it's easy enough to walk over to the subway (or you just allow yourself enough time to walk to the 6 OR take the crosstown bus).

There is a lot of character to the architecture on those side streets. Some beautiful walk ups. Walking up East End, you feel like you aren't even in New York anymore - it almost feels like being in DC (for the DC DLers, reminds me of upper Connecticut avenue).

The crosstown buses at 79th and 86th are incredibly efficient and come often. I find the ones at 72nd and 66th less so.

Another benefit for me (some might disagree) is being so close to all the hospitals. I am able to get to doctors appointments quickly and god forbid you ever need to go to an ER, you are very close to Lenox Hill, Mt. Sinai and NY Pres.

Tom Wolfe was going on about much of what everyone else speaks; new construction condos have eaten into demand for once prime UES co-op buildings. Decline as it is has more to do with status than anything else.

It doesn't help some UES buildings have had their share of recent scandals, are in need of work (always a touchy issue in co-op buildings), and so forth.

Whether you live on the UES or UWS, choose a building that faces away from the eyesore of the supertalls in midtown.

Uma Thurman (an actress, *gasp*) got into River House back in 2013. By 2018 there were rumors Ms. Thurman and husband were looking to sell and decamp elsewhere.

At River House (which famously turned away French ambassador to United States), there is a sense residents (or at least the boards) are finally waking up.

“I think there came a moment where we realized we were maybe a little behind the times and had to be more in tune with the New York of today,” said John Allison, a hedge fund manager and the board president, who has called River House home since 2000. (The very fact the board president would even talk to a reporter speaks to how much has changed.)"

We now (for better or worse) live in an age of equality and inclusiveness. Just as belonging to a restricted private club can land people in hot water via that connection, living in a building seen as bigoted or whatever also doesn't fly.

Sure if your Mr. Koch with more money than God, and can thus tell world to fuck off, can continue your early 1900's WASP mentality. But even then in an era of shareholder activism, relentless media attention certain accommodations often must be made.

[quote]Also I got a much better deal on rent (east of Lexington clearly). I was paying $2400 for a shitty walkup studio on the UWS when I decided to move (in the 70s). I got a nice 1BR on the UES for $2100.

How much do you make a month, R34? Can I ask your profession?

regarding the rejection of a French "Ambassador" (highly unlikely since as big as NYC is, we are not the capital and there are no embassies here), a lot of buildings, and not just the posher ones, don't want diplomats in residence because they think that our laws don't apply to them because of diplomatic immunity and they can get away with anything. think the arrogant saudi assholes

[quote]Sure if your Mr. Koch with more money than God, and can thus tell world to fuck off, can continue your early 1900's WASP mentality. But even then in an era of shareholder activism, relentless media attention certain accommodations often must be made.

There will ALWAYS be exclusivity.

Suggestion for future thread: Let's be the DL CO-OP board.

I'm the red frame, pearl and Swarovski crystal embellished, half-glasses that the queen bee peers over to judge you.

Isn't the United Nations, based in New York, considered a sovereign entity? The US has an ambassador to the UN, and I am pretty sure other member countries do as well. So it could have been an ambassador who was rejected at River House.

R330, many countries have consulates in New York, so it’s possible that French diplomat (not an ambassador) was rejected by a co-op board.

R327

Listen bub, it was French ambassador to UN.

One rich bitch on board got a hair across her ass about any sort of diplomat living in River House and launched a campaign to quash any chances of that happening under her watch.

"The Wall Street Journal reported that the ambassador's bid to make the building his home ran into a fierce campaign by one of the residents, socialite Elizabeth Kabler, who considered Delattre pretty much persona non grata.

Kabler wrote in a letter to fellow residents that it was not in their "interest to cohabit with foreign emissaries who are, to a large extent, beyond the reach of the law."

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Mrs. Kabler's handiwork caused owner of apartment in question to bring legal proceedings for damages. Nothing came of it in end, but still...

Back story about that apartment at River House..

After all that drama, and languishing for ages on market, that unit at River House finally sold, but for far less than original asking.

Seller wanted hair over $15 million USD, but had to settle for just over $8 million in end.

Tom Wolfe spoke no more than the truth when he said certain east side co-ops are in decline. With PR like what came out of River House who in their right mind would want to buy into such a corporation?

Who wants diplomats in the building?

R326, how much do you make in a month and what is your occupation?

LOL. Right now I have to go from UWS to 3rd Ave. I'm going to walk through the Ramble and when I get home I'll make my final UWS vs. UES comparison based on cock.

The foreign countries usually buy the apts for their diplomats to live in. Of course the apt belongs to the country, the staff gets to live in it rent free.

There's an even simpler reason no one wants to live in River House -- location

It's on the river... but that's about it.

It's in a relatively banal stretch of midtown, not rundown, but has no neighborhood feel to it, and if you live there, your friends live nowhere nearby and if there's traffic it can take over a half hour to get to the UES, even longer to the UWS.

I had a friend in high school who lived there and we always used to joke that he lived in Queens, since it might as well have been, given how far away it was from everyone else.

Went to visit a friend over on Sutton Place South a few weeks ago.

Yes, area is far away from everything, but does have its charm.

Area just got the only Trader Joe's on East Side, so that's something anyway.

R5

UES had and still has lots of western Jews often so reformed you'd never know. This is in keeping with say England where Jews like the Rothschilds have been widely accepted for years.

UWS historically had large presence of Jews of Eastern European descent, especially post WWII when many from Europe resettled in New York after ravages of Holocaust.

Books and later films by Phillip Roth such as Portnoy's Complaint and Goodbye, Columbus show these differences.

Oh where to start with you R343, you Font of Misinformation, you.

Back in the 1880s or so, there were German Jews (I assume that is what you meant by "Western Jews") who had come to the US in the wake of the 1848 revolutions and those who had made their fortunes held themselves apart from the Eastern European Jews who came at around that time and over the next 30 or so years.

My great-great-grandparents on my mother's side were "Our Crowd" Jews, and my grandmother, who is in her late 80s, is aware of who is or isn't one of the old German families, but in her Park Avenue building there are plenty of Jews whose grandparents were Russian or Polish who have lived in that building for 50+ years. People in my parent's generation and certainly in mine have no idea which Jews came from where and the Schiffs and Seligmans and Morgenthaus et al have intermarried and assimilated and faded into the background...it is nothing like the Rothschilds in England.

The Jews of the Upper West Side were there long before Hitler and are the descendants of immigrants who arrived in the US between say 1880 and 1910

They are NOT Shoah survivors.

There was a community of German refugees in Washington Heights- Henry Kissinger was one of them, but Shoah survivors make up a very small percentage of UWS-ers.

And finally... Philip Roth

Did you actually ever read either of the books you refer to? Are you aware that Roth writes about the Jews of New Jersey, not New York?

Goodbye, Columbus is about a working class kid from Newark who falls in love with a Jewish Princess from Short Hills. A major subplot of the book is his mockery of her nouveau riche parents and their lifestyle. I mean for fuck sake, Jack Klugman played the father in the movie.

Portnoy's Complaint is about a very horny lower middle class guy from the Jewish section of Newark who is obsessed with masturbation and women, Gentile women in particular and is very much a product of mainstream Eastern European Jewish culture

Stepping down from my soapbox now, but that was truly one of the most ill informed posts I've ever read on Datalounge and that's saying something.

R342 Is that the space Conrans was in at one point?

Holy crap. The official residence of the French ambassador to the U.N. was previously in 740 Park Avenue and sold for a whopping $70 million in 2014. The French government bought the apartment for $600,000 in 1979 .

no, R345 TJMAXX is where Conrans was. Food Emporium was under the bridge

r344 had such a massive bowel movement after he wrote that screed, he had to check the bowl for blood.

Wow we made it to 348… I don’t understand why we’re not at 500. Come on you old birds I know you’re obsessed with New York let’s keep posting

What's Yonkers like these days?

[quote] Well I do know someone who still won't go above 96th.

Obviously a very sensible and wise woman.

R350 Well, it’s on neither the UES nor the UWS, or in NYC, so you may want to start your own thread there buddy. Might be best to couch it in an overall Westchester thread or Metro North thread for broader appeal.

r348 = Portnoy's mother

"Alex! What are you doing in there for so long! Are you okay Alex? Do you have diarrhea again? I'm coming in to look! Do not flush when you're finished!"

What about Gloria Vanderbilt's place that was for sale this year? It's over near the UN. Maybe an ambassador can buy that one.

gloria's apart at 30 beekman has sold

30 Beekman Place seems like a very ordinary building. There are currently two condos in that building on Trulia with an asking price of around $600,000. The most expensive one I could find is $1.5 million. Gloria was one of the poors. What did she do with all her money?

Spent it on paint and crafts, apparently

Haha. Good one, R358. I assume she wasn't very careful with the money she inherited and married more for love than money. She betrayed her class. Without Anderson's help, she would have had to live very modestly in the latter part of her life.

R357

We've done this on DL many times over.

Gloria Vanderbilt only got around $4.5 million from a trust set up by her father. When she came into that money at 21 years of age, GV also supported her mother (IIRC).

Nearly five million then certainly wasn't enough to live upon unless extremely careful, and even then things would be tight.

Bulk of Ms. Vanderbilt's money came from her own work (fashion and other businesses). Unfortunately over years accountant and attorney diddled GV out of money, and worse caused her to have issues with IRS.

Ms. Vanderbilt also inherited that sad trait of her family, she spent money often as if it were water.

[quote]Gloria Vanderbilt only got around $4.5 million from a trust set up by her father. When she came into that money at 21 years of age, GV also supported her mother.

Thanks, R360, but wikipedia says the money she inherited at 21 would be worth $74 million in 2020 dollars, ie. she wasn't filthy rich but she could have lived comfortably all her life if she had been smart.

I knew Gertrude Whitney had won custody of young Gloria from her mother. I didn't know Gertrude had disinherited her because she disapproved of her first husband, until I read your article.

I've read that more than a few Vanderbilts didn't follow the "rules" of their class, eg. living off the interest of their investments and not touching the principal, cutting back spending during recessions, etc.

UES=Sant Ambroeus UWS=Cafe Luxembourg

That's if she hadn't spent down the principal R361

She likely did over the years.

On a smaller level, this is an issue in many buildings on both sides of town.

You have women who inherited say $5MM in 1985 when their husbands died.

That was a very comfortable sum back then especially if there was no mortgage.

But now they are in their 90s and they've given money to children and grandchildren over the years and there's not a whole lot left.

UESers - what are some of your favorite restaurants? I love Marruzella on 1st between 77th and 78th. Great little neighborhood Italian place. Also like THEP for take out Thai. My all-time favorite was Beygolu for Turkish but that closed in early 2020.

For coffee - love Oslo on 75th between 1st and York.

UES=Zitomer's

UWS=Apthorp Pharmacy

( West Village=Bigelow Chemists

Did you see how they’ve tore down the inside of Zitomer’s as part of a renovation effort. So depressing. The counters are gone and it looks like a Duane reade.

R258 in the early 1900s when R.H. Macy wanted to build his store in Herald Square, the owner of a four-story building on the N/W corner of 34th and Broadway refused to sell. Macy built around him. Four-story is still privately owned. When Rockefeller had plan to built RCA Building, Hurley's Bar on the N/E corner of 49th and Sixth refused to sell. The RCA went up around Hurley's. Today Hurley's is Magnolia Bakery.

UWS more strollers!

R367 Also, a brownstone building at 22 East 54th Street that housed a long-term family restaurant, Reidy's, was the lone holdout as a 43-story office building went up above and around it. I remember this in the early 1980s as the spot where many of our office coworkers gathered about once a week for drinks and dinner. They remained for at least another decade until they finally closed.

For those who think the old co-ops are teetering on obsolescence.

That article is from July 2020, R370

Well I’m glad a consensus has been reached on which one is better.

In conclusion, they are both better than the shitty town you live in.

R364 I first read that as Mezzaluna, which is still a favorite of mine.

Beygolu former space has been under construction for what seems like well over a year now. Don't know what's going in that space, but it is take rather a long time.

R361

Gertrude Whitney basically instructed young Gloria Vanderbilt how to respond word for word at that famous custody battle. Many years later Gloria Vanderbilt spilt that bit of tea in a book or something, saying in limousine ride to court each time her aunt would "rehearse" little Gloria's testimony.

Whether presiding judge knew of this do not know, but IIRC Gertrude Whitney got at him another way.

Simply put Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt was out classed and out gunned by Gertrude Whitney. The latter had more money and juice than the former, so trail outcome was pretty much a forgone conclusion.

Little Gloria's first husband, Pat De Cicco, certainly had BDF, though he sounds like a rough character.

[quote]UWS more strollers!

And most are double wide due to IVF fraternal twins. Take up the whole sidewalk.

Anyone live in FiDi? What's that like? A friend just bought in (but hasn't moved into) a new building on Park Row across from City Hall park.

[quote]And most are double wide due to IVF fraternal twins.

People with money and careers wait until the last possible minute to have kids. They don't become parents until they're at least forty.

R379

If you're talking about westside of City Hall Park (Broadway), that is Tribeca. East side, yes is FIDi.

Either way nice enough area but is short of certain amenities like supermarkets. Only one I know of is a Whole Foods way over near West Side Highway, and that is quite a walk.

FiDi, Tribeca, etc... has always had that problem going back twenty or so years now when people started moving down there. You had to either go above Canal street or maybe into Jersey (on Path train) for groceries and certain other things because nothing is down there.

Other than that area is fine for what it is; though prefer Tribeca west of Broadway...

R381 real estate agents’ definition of Tribeca has gotten, let’s say...generous.

R381 Thanks, it's on the east side of the park at Beekman St/Park Row. Nice building from what I can see on Google, but he bought in sight unseen.

That's certainly FiDi R383

Why did he by a place sight unseen? That's putting a huge amount of trust in images and quite honestly faith.

I worked on the UWS for 5 years and the same on the UES, and UWS is much juicier, more soulful than the sometimes very ugly UES.

Gertrude Whitney was a rather odd duck. Early on there is evidence she has lesbian tendencies, and or perhaps what what would be called nowadays "non-binary".

Her mother Alice Vanderbilt wasn't having any of that, and soon enough Gertrude was married off to Harry Payne Whitney making her set for life financially.

[quote] People with money and careers wait until the last possible minute to have kids. They don't become parents until they're at least forty.

People with inherited money can probably start having kids right out of college (early to mid-20s).

To correct my post R376, it was Gertrude Vanderbilt's attorney who "coached" young little Gloria Vanderbit on her testimony.

"But in her memoir, The Rainbow Comes and Goes, Gloria Vanderbilt herself clears it up once and for all. Gertrude Whitney's attorney, Frank Crocker, instructed Gloria in a series of private "sessions" on what to say to the judge, including telling made-up stories of being hurt by her mother's former lover, the German prince. On the way to court that day, "I went over the lines I'd rehearsed with Crocker again and again. I hoped I wouldn't forget anything," she writes in Rainbow."

R384 He's impulsive, money just isn't a big deal for him, and apparently it was the last available of the floorplan he wanted so he pulled the trigger. Nuts, but he figures if he hates it he'll just "return it," i.e. rent it out/sell it. Kind of like a normal person after a spontaneous and unnecessary Target run, but with seven figures.

R387

Inherited money or whatever, certain demographic (especially WASP or whatever background) tend to marry and start families later. We're talking anywhere from late 20's through middle or late 30's.

Part of this is how much things have changed in terms of roles of women over past few decades. Days of say a Yale man marrying some nobody secretary in her early 20's are largely over. Ivy tends to marry other Ivy, but more importantly such men are seeking more of an equal match. They want a woman who already has a career (or is well on her way to establishing), who can pull her weight prior to say babies arriving, and maybe even afterward. What they don't want is some girl with no background or comparable education /career. Unlike say their father's, grandfather's or great-grandfather's day men today are thinking about what happens in case of divorce.

A woman who has never worked, or her income prior to marriage was rather puny compared to husband's is setting up latter for potentially large divorce settlement.

On the other side of things educated modern women understand that marriage today is not what it was in their mother's, grandmother's, etc.. day . It may not last forever, and in case of divorce there is no assurance of lifetime alimony.

Finally modern women have been sold a bill of goods for a few decades now that they can control their menstrual cycles via birth control. Then when ready simply stop taking the pill or whatever and things will return as nature planned. This does not always happen, and in many instances women in 30's through 40's who ever thought they'd have trouble conceiving, well, do... Hence all the IVF and surrogates births.

[quote]Gertrude Whitney was a rather odd duck.

Loved her on Edge of Night.

Excellent example of why people are leaving those old tenement buildings on UES....

Just spoke to a friend exchanging holiday well wishes. He lives in one of those old five floor "old tenement" walk-up buildings in Yorkville. His building has basically had heat and hot water for about one and one-half days so far this week. This apparently is a regular occurrence all winter long every year.

Tuesday there wasn't heat or hot water due to work on boiler (for fourth time in three months). This meant boiler had to be shut down Monday evening to cool off enough so workers could do whatever it was they were going to do.... Fair enough I suppose. Boiler was not fixed, back up and running until very late Tuesday evening. Even then the building was still chilly on Wednesday and Thursday. Guy wakes up this morning and there's no heat or hot water. Super is away for Christmas Eve, so nothing is going to happen until who knows when.

People are waking up to fact for same or near money landlords want for these apartments in old to ancient buildings, they can get something in new construction with tons of amenities including reliable heat and hot water.

Keep in mind only ones paying dirt cheap rent in these ancient buildings are those equally old themselves. Lifer tenants who moved in say before 1990 (1980 is close to mark), and never left. That longevity of tenancy meant regulated rent never really rose.

OTOH units that were vacated often were gut renovated to get rent up well north of $2k per month, and hopefully out of rent regulation.

Problem is while individual apartments may be renovated, bones of the building including HVAC is what it is; an old to ancient steam or hot water heating system likely installed sixty to nearly one hundred years ago (if not older).

Thanks for the interesting info, R376. I saw the TV movie about the custody battle between Gloria's mother and Gertrude a million years ago but I've forgotten most of the details.

UWS used to have much more personality. Now it's all chains and banks. Makes me sad.

What r381 said is true about Fidi. There is nothing wrong with, but because historically it was a neighborhood people just came in for work and didn't really live in, there aren't a lot of amenities built up for people who live in the area.

R394

Chain stores and banks have been closing on UES for years now. DWS shoes at Broadway and 79th will soon shut down as well.

Victoria's Secret, various Starbucks, and other chain shops....

Only decent sized supermarket know of in Tribeca or even FiDI area is WF on Greenwich and Warren.

That location is fine if you live say in Battery Park City, but a bit of walk further east you go towards Broadway/City Hall.

Knew someone who bought a co-op down on Broadway way back in late 1980's. I mean this was when FiDi was still largely "Wall Street" and streets rolled up late or overnight basically. He would get shopping done in West or Greenwich Village then carry things back on subway or bus.

Area around Hudson Street is pretty lively residential wise nowadays, but still if you want say milk at 2AM you might be SOL if not wanting to walk several blocks.

You’d be amazed how many women attend Ivy League or very good colleges and work in a job like banking for a few years and then totally quit (or maybe start a “consulting business”) as soon as they get married. It’s almost as if they do and go through all that to make a pretense that they want a career of their own (because it’s embarrassing in today’s world not to) but really they’re biding their time until they get that ring. This is especially true for those Upper Middle Class and higher.

The only ones in this who seem to continue working are those who happened to fall into something (or start a company) that is truly their passion.

R396 here.

Meant "UWS", not UES

But thinking about it banks and chain stores are closing all over Manhattan.

I’ll,never understand Tribeca. It’s such a wasteland.

You can get very sleek lofts with all modern amenities in a safe neighborhood r400.

Not everyone wants some old, stuffy building.

Fat cats are taking on even fatter rats in Tribeca’s posh Cast Iron House

The issue with Tribeca is the absence of what makes NYC living - corner delis, street life, easy access to support services. It’s better than it was but I’ll take the UWS or UES over Tribeca. Prefer Village but at least UWS and UES have services nearby (excepting Fifth and Park)

[quote]Prefer Village but at least UWS and UES have services nearby (excepting Fifth and Park)

If you live on Fifth, you can shop on Madison. Park Avenue can shop on Madison or Lexington.

R403 all those things that make “NYC living living” are disappearing anyway (except for certain parts of the Village which are still very quaint)

So I’d rather have the wider, cleaner streets and big spacious lofts of Tribeca if I could afford them, for sure!

On UES Fifth and Park avenues like CPW, Amsterdam avenues and Riverside Drive on UWS were all zoned from start as strictly residential (non commercial) streets. Thus it doesn't matter whether we're talking about 1921 or 2021 if you wanted shopping/retail/commercial you got our behind up and went over to Madison avenue or further east ( Lexington, Third, Second, etc...). On UWS it's Columbus and Broadway.

As for R403

South of Houston and certainly Canal street historically once was entirely industrial or commercial. What diners, restaurants and shopping that did exist in say Tribeca or FiDi catered largely to people who worked in area, thus shut down nights and often weekends. That began to change by late 1990's as development took off down there, but still leave much to be desired.

Bill de Blasio's final race baiting act in office (rezoning SoHo and bit of Tribeca) is supposed to legalize illegal shops and other businesses along with attracting more to bring more commercial amenities to area. Flip side is BdeB's other wet dream, to bust primarily white and well off areas of Manhattan with huge amounts of low income housing.

Above Houston street (West and Greenwich Village) long was an area dominated by scores of local shops. You could wander around major avenues or streets and find bakeries, fish mongers, delis, small mom/pop grocery stores, etc... This is the sort of thing Tribeca, SoHo and rest of down town never had.

downtown FiDi is reclaimed land. Hurricane zone. No thank you!

R407

Large swaths of both east and west sides of lower Manhattan are built upon landfill.

Comparing map of Manhattan done in 1660 to modern times shows just how much of lower part of island is landfill. Nearly from first years Europeans arrived in New York they began throwing garbage into waters outside original settlement that created more land.

This went on well into post war years. FDR Drive that runs along Manhattan's east side shore is built largely upon rubble brought back as ballast on ships from bombed out WWII London.

Map of 1847 showing "cities of Manhattan and Brooklyn".

If you zoom in closer you can see lower Manhattan by that time extended just about two blocks west of Hudson Street.

Trust me, the FDR floods like it’s on landfill too.

Yes, one knows.

Always avoid FDR Drive even after or during moderate rain because of flooding issues.

What is landfill? Buried egg cartons?

Battery Park City is largely built upon landfill that came from dirt excavated for original Twin Towers...

R412

The Meadowlands, Rose!

Another bit of old UWS bites the dust.....

Hmmm…. so no one has an opinion on this topic?

It depends what you're looking for, R416. There is no definitive answer.

They're both lovely, I had a mother who lived there once.

Vanderbilt's smile at R360 looks like the face you'd make if you were sitting on a picket fence.

Gloria Vanderbilt perfected the art of the grimace. For almost her entire life, she was set upon by the press, and her response to the incessant photogs was to show both rows of teeth, a kind of "fuck you" to the camera.

So, who won?

It was a tie.

Well we still have nothing about Dan Levy who is the real life David beyond someone who referred to him as a “cumdump” in a thread from a few years ago.

So whatever friends of his are defending him on this and whatever publicist got the Chris Appleton thread removed - please feel free to give us more details about the alleged cumdump period he went through.

stay below 96th

96th isn't such a clear cut dividing line.

Stuff happens nowadays at that street and blocks south.

Apologies about R423. Wrong thread. Disregard

[QUOTE] Upper East Site

Oh deer.

Why is it so dangerous now R425? Because of DeBlasio's fuck ups?

Not dangerous enough to keep the rents low. Rents are insane in the city again.

Stuff happens now r425...?

You have always been able to find some crime that happens in any neighborhood in NY. It's a city of 8 million fucking people.

Man, that is one terrible thing the internet did. Made people so obsessed with knowing every single incident, thus made the world seem scarier even when crime was lower.

I much prefer the Lower Upper Side.

I prefer to end up in Harlem with my end up in Harlem.

What about the Lower West Side?

This was referenced in the novel "V" but I've never heard it used anywhere else.

Was this a term people used in the 50s and 60s?

The Lower East Side is what New Yorkers referred to the district below 14th Street and Canal that was east of Broadway. Some referred to it as the East Village, as the paler, dirtier version of Greenwich Village. Some refer to Greenwich Village as the West Village. Nobody ever says Lower West Side. Ever.

West Village is different than Greenwich Village - it’s west of 6th Ave. Lower West Side isn’t really used - there is West Village, Western Soho/Hudson Square and Tribeca. If anything western Soho/Hudson Square was a no-mans land that could have been Lower West Side - to distinguish from West Village or Tribeca.