French Bring Back Teaching of Latin and Ancient Greek in Schools

The targeting of the classics is prominent in the U.S. now, with Princeton University announcing that students of classics will no longer need to study Latin and Ancient Greek, the two subjects that are the core pillars of the discipline.

Dan-el Padilla Peralta, an associate professor of classics at Princeton, is a proponent of the ban, claiming that Ancient Greek and Roman cultures had been encouraging slavery, colonialism, and white supremacy for 2,000 years.

Finally, bringing back class and culture.

Good for him

This comes after a BBC poll among 100 international authors, academics, journalists, and critics voted Homer’s Odyssey as the most influential story to have shaped the entire world.

[quote] ___ cultures had been encouraging slavery, colonialism

Middle East? Africa?

[quote]Dan-el Padilla Peralta, an associate professor of classics at Princeton, is a proponent of the ban, claiming that Ancient Greek and Roman cultures had been encouraging slavery, colonialism, and white supremacy for 2,000 years.

Good gawd!! STFU. The Greeks and Romans formed the cornerstone is Western Civilization. The Greeks also gave us democracy, philosophy, theatre, culture, etc.

What would this professor from Princeton say about the Asian empires encouraging slavery, colonialism and their cultures for 2,000 years?

^^of Western Civilization

Are they bringing back the pederasty as well? Asking for a friend.

Ancient Greeks and Romans were not "white" because there was no concept of being "white" or "black" back then. They were Mediterranean civilizations. There no clear borders between Southern Europe, North Africa or the Levant. Greek and Roman civilization influenced the world as did Persian Empire and Ancient China and India. So they're all important to learn. Western European empires (Britain, Spain, France, Portugal) came up with the idea of White supremacy to justify colonization and slavery about 400 years ago. But that was thousands years after the end of Ancient Greece and Rome.

R9. Thank you, nice explanation.

It’s Greek to me 🤷🏻‍♂️

R9. That egghead 'woke' professor at Princeton knows nothing. I can't even imagine 'canceling' the Greeks and Romans or their languages. It's unthinkable. Thank you for putting things in perspective.

R1 and the OP link has shown the Princeton professor to be a ridiculous jerk.

Applying modern standards to the past is never good. People just did not identify by their skin color back then as it didn't make sense. They identified by tribe, religion, kingdom, language, etc. Obviously, people saw different physical features which they associated with certain groups but they referred to those people by the group they belonged to. There's no evidence people associated skin color with high intelligence or superiority. Ethiopians, the Kingdom of Kongo and Kingdom of Mali were respected by all accounts into the early Modern era.

Teaching Latin as the foundational language of Romance languages is great, but it does diddly for people who grow up in Germanic language countries (the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway) - unless they are curious and want to know more about Latin influences on their languages. Even English, which is a hybrid language, has more Germanic elements than Latinate elements. The Slavic speaking countries might get something from studying Greek, because many of them used the Cyrillic alphabet, which is based on the Greek alphabet, but they wouldn't get much from studying Latin. It isn't studying the LANGUAGES which helps people learn about the culture, it's the CONCEPTS - and those can be found by studying the literature of those nations, whether in the original or in translation. I'm not sorry I studied Latin in high school, but only because it helped me understand English grammar better, and because the origins (the roots) of many English words come from Latin.

French Bring Back Teaching of Latin and Ancient Greek in Schools

Le français ramène l'enseignement du latin et du grec ancien à l'école

French Doctrinam linguae Latinae et Graecae Veteris in Scholis Reduc

Γαλλικά Επαναφέρετε τη διδασκαλία των Λατινικών και Αρχαίων Ελληνικών στα Σχολεία

(Galliká Epanaférete ti didaskalía ton Latinikón kai Archaíon Ellinikón sta Scholeía)

[quote][R1] and the OP link has shown the Princeton professor to be a ridiculous jerk.

What's weird is that the YouTube interview with that professor (embedded in the story linked by OP) doesn't mention anything about these claims that study classical languages somehow supports slavery (?). In the clip the professor merely expounds about his interest in Ancient Roman religion and its importance in shaping the State.

It doesn't add up.

[R15] I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's

Imperium Galicum studium linguae latinae et graecae in scholis restaurat

* Gallicum

[quote]It isn't studying the LANGUAGES which helps people learn about the culture, it's the CONCEPTS

I broadly agree with you, R14, but at the granular level, there are some concepts in every language that don't exist in other languages and are extremely difficult to render without a long explanation. The more different the culture is from yours, the more likely you are to strike this problem. To give an easy to see example, Summer Winter Spring and Fall/Autumn are European descriptions. Indigenous Australians spoke about 300 different languages, but in most of them there were words for six or more seasons which reflected the actual changes in weather regularly experienced in whatever part of Australia they lived in. I imagine Native Americans had the same, since California has different seasons from Virginia.

So while it shouldn't be compulsory to learn a language in order to study a civilization, it will certainly add to your understanding of its history and culture if you do.

R14 I'm German and my Latin helped me a lot with learning English and Italian. It's pretty cool to learn a language so ancient and to have enthusiastic teachers who make you forget it's a "dead" language. Unfortunately, I never learned ancient Greek but I plan to yet. I fully support the idea of teaching old languages in school, and even more, I would approve of more music education and the chance to learn an instrument or sing in a choir for everyone. I see culture as the counter-current to the tendency to streamline the curriculum according to what can be turned into profit. Being a useful tool for the industry (or academia) is not what should constitute the value of human beings. Sometimes, the idea is prevalent that you needn't be able to understand a language; you can just get a translation. That's true for the classics (even if the ability to compare translations that sometimes differ widely is a huge benefit), but it's impossible for many things that have never been translated. It also doesn't take into account that learning a language suddenly makes you see connections between languages and also ways of thinking that come with it.

I don't know about Ancient Greek, but they've never stopped teaching Latin is taught in Italian schools

I love that channel, r20. Is he family perchance?

R20, I am also a fan and subscriber to Polymathy (Luke Ranieri's YouTube channel). I think Luke is sexy, but I don't think he's gay.

Thanks, r23. Does he have a girlfriend? Is he married? He rarely discusses his personal life except to talk about his Italian roots.

R20, nicely stated. Starting early in school with foreign language and music... in the long term, I wonder what kind of positive impact that could have on children?

I had three years of latin in HS, it helped me understand grammar that became useful in other modern languages that I later learned to speak

And yeah, polymathy guy is hot, if my latin teacher looked like that guy i would have been the biggest suck up student ever

I approve! Literae humaniores ought to be standard as it was in my day.

Latin has always been a core subject in Italian schools.

Fuckum wokum!

[quote] Ancient Greeks and Romans were not "white" because there was no concept of being "white" or "black" back then.

This concept just will not fly with the twitter left. You are either a "coloniza" (white) or "oppressed" (non-white). Morons.

What a difference several years can make....

The french are right. The US professors are a disgusting neanderthal bunch

"Dan-el Padilla Peralta, an associate professor of classics at Princeton, is a proponent of the ban, claiming that Ancient Greek and Roman cultures had been encouraging slavery, colonialism, and white supremacy for 2,000 years."

One of the things I hate about wokeness is that its advocates assume people cannot discern racism, colonialism, white supremacy, misogyny, homophobia when they come across them.

What a bunch of cockadoodie.

I agree

I studied Laughing and Grief in college.

R20. Fascinating. Thanks for posting.

All I can say is: GOOD.

That's great! I would have loved this as a teenager.

Ah, the days when people spoke Latin. The days before civilization went to hell in a hand basket.

Welcome to our world

merry olde engeland

[quote]Ancient Greeks and Romans were not "white" because there was no concept of being "white" or "black" back then.

Good grief, not this bullshit again.

They were white. Get over it.

Have you ever even fucking been to Rome?

Boris got you a little good old Western culture vs. the world thread going, eh? (Personally I welcome more liberal arts)

R43 They were European. Not white. You're applying modern racial terminology to a civilization that existed thousands of years prior to the Spanish, French and British Empire. The term "white" is attributed to Western Europeans who began to colonize the New World and needed a system of categorization that would justify not only genocide of Indigenous brown-skinned people but also enslaving of even darker skinned Africans. There's no such thing as white, black, yellow or red in science and it didn't exist as a concept prior to the 1500s. All humans are shades of brown.

Also, outside of The Americas, nobody uses terms like "white" or "black" to describe themselves. Europeans don't need to say "I'm white" and Africans don't need to say "I'm black" just as Asians don't say "I'm Asian". People rather identify by their nationality, culture, tribe or religion. There's a reason why most immigrants are confused by the nonsense of the US Census.

But that does not mean the the color blue did not exist.

[quote]All humans are shades of brown.

Uh...we know that.

But despite that, we divide people up by race. We do, the world does, and you do too.

R46 And the ancients had no word for "blue"

But that does not mean the the color blue did not exist.

[quote]All humans are shades of brown.

Uh...we know that.

But despite that, we divide people up by race. We do, the world does, and you do too.

[quote]Also, outside of The Americas, nobody uses terms like "white" or "black" to describe themselves.

LOL.

Doll, I lived in Italy for over 3 decades. You don't know what you are talking about.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

R47 Race isn't real. The world is divided by wealth, culture, religion and environment. Not race. Most countries are diverse actually. Tribalism is a bigger issue and many tribes have the same shade of skin. Only post-colonial countries are divided by race like The US, Latin American countries, Australia and South Africa because a racial hierarchy was created and cultures developed from those categories. White = purely European and Christian, mostly light-skinned. Black = of African ancestry and can be mixed race from light to dark.

R49 Well then it's sad Italians caved to Americanization because those are useless categories outside of North America.

R51 You have never been out of the country, or have never mingled with Europeans.

You are absurd.

For R51

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani

What's the third part, r54?

Where the Celtae lived. "The Celts", whom the Romans called Gauls. They lived in northern and northwestern present-day France.

...." tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur."

My father speaks 9 languages, Latin and Greek among them and he's from a small island in the Adriatic Classical education used to mean something so good for the French. This is great news.

Good. Fuck this ghetto woke revisionist bullshit.

Bringing back Latin and Greek is a complete waste of time

why would you say that? and they are already "back", just not for you

I had to take Latin in grade school and some high school. There was no point to it when they could have inserted another more useful subject in its place

I'm a big fan of classical education. Not just Latin or ancient Greek, but also a healthy dose of math and science.

inserted another more useful subject ? like what? and what did you feel you missed out on?

R9 except that two thousand years ago, North Africa was under Roman rule and the Arabs had not yet colonized the area. Islam did not exist yet.

Americans and their obsession with race think that the whole planet is as neurotic as they are. The French are natives in their own country. A country that lived under the Roman Empire and whose vestiges can be found everywhere in the country. The Greeks also passed through France. The French do not have to think like the Americans. They do exactly what they want in their own land. If the ethnic minorities who are mostly immigrants do not accept this, they do not have to stay in France. France and the Roman Empire are inseparable. They are not going to deny themselves because it hurts some feelings. In the countries of the populations that immigrated to France multiculturalism does not exist. So the French have no lesson to receive from others.

I really enjoyed learning Latin. It’s so precise and concise. Every phrase comes together like a little jigsaw puzzle with all the pieces fitting together.

I read up on all the Dan-El Padilla Peralta stuff yesterday and it was very interesting. I have to agree with the argument though that rather than tearing everything down because it's not perfect, why not expand and add? It sounds to me more like he just got completely bored with his chosen field. Pretty depressing that he feels the very thing that helped him get out of poverty and into a great position in life (discovering the book) was actually a bad thing to happen to him now. And... kinda bizarre.

[quote]Bringing back Latin and Greek is a complete waste of time

I ended up taking Latin courses at University. They were among the most valuable classes I've ever taken. It would have been nice to have had the option in high school. It most certainly would have made the SAT test easier. The ability to understand what most words mean without having to have a dictionary on hand can't be underestimated.

[quote]Americans and their obsession with race think that the whole planet is as neurotic as they are.

Let's not go pretending that France doesn't have problems with race. The biggest problem in France is that some of you pretend there is no problem.

Latin helps you understand the definition of words.

[quote] The French are natives in their own country.

The country is overrun with Arabs.

[quote] Also, outside of The Americas, nobody uses terms like "white" or "black" to describe themselves.

They do in the UK.

Here in America, we use Ebonics to help black children learn math.

Teaching Latin and Ancient Greek would throw our entire nation into a tailspin.

Ebonics is a stupid term. I'm Black btw and I find it patronizing. Black Americans have accents based on their region of birth (like NYC, Southern, Appalachian, Californian, Boston, Chicago accents, etc) like everyone else. There is a Black vernacular that is heavily based around Southern speech and slang with throwbacks to West Africa that is spoken nationwide but it's not mutually intelligible at all with Standard American Englsh. Most Black people can code-switch just like most White Southerners can. The way Ebonics is worded makes it sound like it's pidgin English or a patois when it's just a vernacular that is almost identical to a Southern accent.

*mutually unintelligible

Ebonics is an accurate term.

Ghetto language keeps black people enslaved.

R76 It's not a language. It's vernacular and White Southerners talk the same exact way. It's working class and insular nothing to do with slavery. No different from New York accents, Boston accents or any strong UK accents. Europeans have their working-class trashy accents too.

I took Latin for 8 years in both high school and college.

I can't stress enough how much it helps knowing Latin in learning other languages (even non Latin based languages) for an English speaker.

The grammar lessons alone. Latin has gendered nours, etc. which are common in many languages but not English.

Ebonics is more than an accent. It's the practice of dumbing down language.

Blacks use it to self-ostracize themselves from the middle and upper classes. Peer pressure says that using proper English makes black people sound too white.

By reinforcing this kind of language, blacks keep each other in the ghetto.

[quote]It's not a language. It's vernacular and White Southerners talk the same exact way.

No they don't.

Latin is the way of the future

That was a really interesting post, R74, thanks for sharing.

I'm a big fan of languages, accents, communication, and I know there's a move in the language community now to show how AAVE is not just "bad English" as it sometimes gets portrayed as. It's all very interesting to me. Code switching is also a fascinating topic. My friends and I do it between English, Italian and Arabic.

All language instruction should begin at age 3. Other subjects can wait but language acquisition peters out at age 7. Until then children can absorb multiple languages.

All schooling until age 7 should be storytelling and reading only. And play.

And earrings

And caftans!

And declensions and conjugations!

R83, I think that's particularly useful when it comes to pronunciation as children are born with the ability to make all sounds pretty effortlessly, however I learned Italian at 34 so it's not the be all and end all if you don't start early, and in many cases you can see it's quicker to learn a language as an adult as you have more at your disposal.

However, I do agree that starting earlier is the best option.

I'm actually learning the basics of these two languages on DuoLingo

The French need to bring back order to their streets (and to tighten up their immigration practices.)

My Greek friend says that Ancient Greek is pretty difficult for them when studying in school, sounds like it's quite different, a lot of extra grammar that is no longer used. I've studied a bit of modern Greek and it definitely has some interesting grammar points that it took awhile to get my head around.

The biggest hurdle for me right now is the Greek letters and associating them with their English equivalent sounds

You'll get it, R91, it will suddenly click :). The hardest part I find is that there are basically three letters that all make the "ee" sound, and you have to pick up when to use which one.

The French are quite fond of nonwhites... unless those people are French.