If you left the US, will you ever live here again?

The thought of leaving has crossed my mind, I've been thinking British Columbia, Canada, or the Melbourne area in Australia.

If I had the time and money, I'd be making trips there to check things out, and buying investment properties just in case.

Yes I want to leave but money is a factor. I loathe the smelly South American fuckers coming here so I don’t want another upscale county thinking I’m one of those migrant scums.

I've thought about New Zealand. They're always looking for American doctors.

I left 10 years ago, and am just retiring early at 57. One thing that makes it impossible to return is the terrible health insurance system. Maybe at 65 with Medicare but even that is shit. Plus, I find little to relate with anymore.

The problem with us who have the fantasy to moving to Europe is that they don't want us. At least in the UK, it is very hard to immigrate there. I was a student there w/ a student visa and I tried everything to stay. In 2015, an employer had to prove a Brit couldn't fill the job and then from there someone from the EU couldn't as well. At least part of the requirement is gone. Or you could spend £500K for an entreprenuers visa. If you married someone or have a partner who lives there, it's easier or if you are very rich.

I think if you go to all the effort to move to a place like London or Spain or the even harder to get into Australia, you are making a commitment. Instead of spending money on a big house, I like the idea of buying a few small studio flats in the US, UK, and maybe Barcelona and then just rotate. Just getting on the NHS would be amazing. Yes, people gripe, but the key to the NHS, like a good school district in the US is to live in the right post code. If you live in a wealthy post code a lot of the NHS doctors are top notch and then offer private care for those who reside outside of the area. As a student I got the NHS. Prescriptions were £4 and MD visits were free. I never had an issue getting an apt.

Where did you move to R4?

Ive always wanted to leave the US. I still plan to, but my husband is dead against it. I was thinking Portugal, or Spain. If I ever make the move I am never coming back. Is anyone else an American, but never felt American if that makes sense?

If I was younger, I would love to live in a different country. But, to dream....UK, Australia, New Zealand. Canada comes to mind but way too cold. Possibly other countries in the EU but I would want to make sure I feel safe and would be happy.

It would be easy to move to Canada since I live less than 500 feet from the border. There’s just a white line painted on the road.

Portugal, Spain or Greece would be good to retire to. But unless you are independently wealthy it’s hard to move anywhere. I know lucky Americans who’ve been transferred to London and Sydney, respectively, as they worked for multinational financial corporations. I looked into going to Australia around 15 years ago, after visiting and meeting a guy I really liked. There was a system that graded you based on the needs of the country. You got points for age (younger the better), occupation, English proficiency, and whether you were willing to move to a rural area, etc. I remember at the time there was a need for hair stylists, and that career rated surprisingly high.

I have a European passport, so I am thinking of living in Italy or France.

R2 You sound like a typical racist, redneck, hick American, so you should just stay there. Nobody else would want you, anyway.

R9, where do you live? Like it?

You’ll have to learn the language. Don’t ever forget that. Visiting a restaurant catering to American tourists in broken English isn’t the same as living there as a local citizen.

Unless you want to be part of the vapid expat community, you must learn the language.

R14 Not if you move to Canada, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa..

Obviously not, doll.

only if I married a very wealthy person, or if Canada annexed the US would I move back.

I like where I live now. The people are easier to understand, the socioeconomic inequality isn't extreme, and the firearms violence is 98% gang-on-gang, not "I had a bad hair day and decided other people's children didn't deserve to live" type of violence.

r17 here. I moved to Canada.

I'm 59 and retired as of yesterday. Traffic has gotten much worse in my area and drivers are more aggressive. Someone I know who manages several restaurants said customers have gotten meaner in the last couple of years. Many of the locals are Trump supporters and when I see them at a restaurant they start complaining about Biden. They think because I don't respond I'm agreeing with them.

My sister lives in Canada and suggested I move there but I can only stay 6 months. I'm too old to get past their immigration point system. It's the same for other countries. As a U.S citizen you can only stay 3-6 months.

They always come back.

They always come back to use American made Datalounge!

Speaking ex-pats, has anyone seen ShinjukuBaby around?

Paris. And hell no. I would never come back.

[quote] They always come back to use American made Datalounge!

Try Manvox. We're nicer!

Berlin; no.

[quote] I loathe the smelly South American fuckers coming here so I don’t want another upscale county thinking I’m one of those migrant scums.

You are scum, nonetheless. (and don't deserve anywhere better)

R2, you ARE that scum.

I lived in Germany for several years, returned to the US, and am considering moving back to Europe again next year. I love living abroad as someone who's more adventurous when he travels, and as someone interested in experiencing new cultures. However, other than students, anyone who thinks they're going to experience a significantly greater life is woefully mistaken.

99.9% of the time, ex-pats are reverse engineering their happiness abroad. They hate their families or don't have any friends, so living in another country gives them the illusion of starting fresh (speaking about Americans here). However, they always end up banished to hanging out with other ex-pats, avoid fully embracing the local culture, and being completely unchanged in terms of personality. Miserable people remain miserable people regardless of which country code in which they reside. Personally, I was surprised how quickly my stressors in the US followed me to Germany. Feeling overworked and underpaid...paying a high rent for little in return...navigating the nightmare known as dating as a gay man.

The only aspects of living in Germany that were significantly better were the ability to drink alcohol in public and not having to pay a co-pay at the doctor. Other than that, add on the difficulty of learning a new language and culture, and finding costs more expensive, I experienced a slight decrease in quality of life.

But like I said, even though I'm an American through and through, living abroad has been good at forcing me to try new things. I've been stagnating in the States and want to shake things up again.

[quote] the ability to drink alcohol in public

One can't drink alcohol in public in the United States?

No, R29. Only handful of jurisdictions allow one to.

Not outside of designated areas, R29. In Germany you can openly drink on the stairs of a museum, in a train station, or while walking across town.

You can't "up and leave" though, OP. You need to aquire Visa/papers. How did you friends achieve that to live in Spain full time ?

My only concern when I retire to Italy or Spain is health care. Those countries will be way "out of network."

R33 here. Being a French citizen, I might get access to France's health care.

Spain has excellent healthcare.

R28 I like you and I hope to meet you one day in my adopted city of Berlin.

Find a guy in your preferred country, pay him to marry you and live together a few years and you're IN. You guys don't sound very resourceful. P

Muriel plans to block users outside the US. Just FYI. Bye!

[quote] Muriel plans to block users outside the US. Just FYI. Bye!

Come to Manvox. We’re nicer!

Then go.

R28 - This is just spot on.

I moved to Europe thinking I'd stay two or three years to get some international experience. I'm still here, 20+ years later.

I'm married to a European now, and I doubt I'll ever move back to the US.

I just went back last week for a family visit, and I was struck again by how comparatively expensive some things are (not healthcare; that's a given, but simple things like organic milk or a domestic flight, or a 45-minute ride to the airport), while consumer protection is minimal -- no mandatory warranties on durable goods, lots of chemicals that are prohibited in the EU in the stuff you put on your skin and hair, etc. I gather from my US friends that salaries are generally higher in the States, but they have to be to cover costs.

Meanwhile, I have six weeks' vacation a year and paid overtime at my professional job. Basic healthcare (which I top up privately) is covered for pretty much all legal residents, public schools are generally fine (not prep-school level, but not slum level either) for those who have kids, so education costs are discretionary, and I can get to Paris or Rome for $60 round trip.

So I see no reason to move back.

^^ These are many reasons why my Swiss husband and I (I'm Spanish) are moving back to Europe. We've done some things here in the USA we couldn't do in Europe, but it's time to return where we find life easier and more interesting

R31, why would you want to do that?

Nope. Been gone so long that the US is a foreign country to me. That's the beauty of DL; a constant reminder as to why I left.

R33, R34, if you have a French passport you can benefit from the EU's social security and health system across the European Union, meaning you could live in Spain or any of the other 27 countries and use their health system. That's why the EU and common market are such an advantage.

Montreal, Quebec, Canada

You get the benefit of the exchange rate, a strong Universal health care system, a safe and walkable city, good public transportation, and French Canadian men are generally hot AF

and it's also a short direct flight back to most Eastern US cities if you should need to travel back and forth

I’m Australian by birth, lived for 20 years in NYC/SF and moved back to Sydney with my US born partner about 3 years ago. We had planned to be here for 3-4 years, with a move back to nyc after that. We recently agreed to no longer put timeframes on our Sydney time. We’ve got a great life here, but I’d say in the next 2 years I’ll be getting ready to move back to NYC. Those kinds of moves take a year to plan / prep so I’ll account for that. Time will tell I guess.

I thought I’d live in the UK for a year or so for the experience but am still here almost twenty years later, and it’s home now. Until recently, I considered moving back to the US for retirement, but that’s looking increasingly less likely due to all the uncertainty about health care coverage and the constant political and social chaos. Never say never though, it’s good to have options if it goes tits up here.

Two years into ‘living abroad’ is still a relative newbie. I’ve met a revolving door of Americans who at the time optimistically and genuinely proclaim they’re staying forever, and 80% are gone within a few years for a variety of reasons. I’ve learnt not to invest too much with US peeps for any meaningful friendship unless they are firmly rooted (think a decade with permanent residence or naturalisation) as so many suddenly leave.

[quote] In Germany you can openly drink on the stairs of a museum, in a train station, or while walking across town.

I can't be the only one who read this and thought :"if this is one of your biggest pluses, then clearly you have other issues."

Moved to Europe in 2006 with my husband who is Belgian. Honestly, the adjustment was quite difficult at first due to the language and cultural differences. But I am settled in now and have no plans to return. It is also very interesting to see the world from different perspectives outside of the US.

R44 Why wouldn't you want that?

It’s not about drinking on the steps of a museum, toots — it’s about the quality of life / live and let live mindset that’s behind it.

In a heartbeat I’d leave and never return to live maybe visit California. The way we’ve allowed the insanity to take over is mind blowing. The migrants are walking in here like they own it and taking government money while we’re barely able to make our rents. Then we have the QAnon crazies who won’t let it die and continue their insane theories, almost violent at times , to prove they know things when they clearly do not. The ultra woke are dividing the nation with bullying their racial hatred for white people. They want and they get but they don’t earn. Not the way the world is but in America , if you’re BLM then you cry racism for anything and magically you are granted your 3 wishes. The Muslim extremists have snuck in and stayed and definitely have another 9/11 plotting right on our soil but we’re a pussy nation who waits until we’re beaten to do anything, we’re domestically abused by the violent criminals. They get rewarded. The anti maskers and anti vaxxers are a whole other black sore on America. With too much “freedom” becomes chaos. We’ve created the chaotic mask & vaxx debates and now people are dying but they still won’t get the clue to understand it’s their fault for not banding together under one solid leadership to say “MASK MANDATES VACCINES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE HEALTHY TO GET THEM AND NO SOCIAL GATHERING UNLESS BOTH ARE ADHERED TO” Fuck this country China is at the ready to destroy us, they already started.

I was stationed in Germany back in the 70s, and even as a callow youth, I knew most Europeans had a much better standard of living than most Americans. Still, I studied Spanish in high school, and I have no desire to learn German, so my options are limited if I want to speak the native language wherever I decide to go.

The other thing about living in Europe is that the cost of returning to the US is fairly prohibitive for someone like me who lives on 2K/month. So I have considered the Mexican state of Quintana Roo (Cancun area, Playa del Carmen) and Ecuador in addition to Spain. My original plan was to take a CELTA ESL-teaching course and then stay in whatever country I took the course in and work PT teaching English. But Covid sadly put the kibosh on that plan, since very few countries are currently offering the CELTA course face-to-face. So now I'm at loose ends as to what I want to do, as time continues to pass and I get older by the minute (I'm 63).

I would never sell my property here in the US, so I imagine that, of necessity, I would have to come back on occasion, but I can't imagine coming back to the US to live. Hell, I don't even want to be here now.

[quote]Canada comes to mind but way too cold.

Honestly it's a small price to pay and you get used to the navigating the cold. Also climate change.

You can't go home again.

So if you don't feel the US is your home you can move back.

Get out while you can !!

If I took all the effort to leave, I would not come back. The US is quickly dwindling into a second rate country that has no culture whatsoever

I lived in SE Asia for 17 years and returned to the USA about 7 years ago. The plan was to set up a small residence here and to continue to travel but then I was able to bring my Khmer partner over so we have been here since. I do wonder if coming back wasn't a mistake. I think of leaving often but the partner's job here prevents that.

R54 "The migrants are walking in here like they own it" And this doesn't happen in Europe?

I am completely bored with the US. It’s time to try somewhere else. I am limited by my inability to speak any other language

There are lots of countries you can live in without knowing the local language. It would be better if you did speak it but English continues to be the language most people know or study.

I moved to Lisbon 5 years ago and I don't see myself returning.

No, I would never live there again.

Isn't it very very difficult for an American to move to another country (including Canada and Mexico) but especially Europe without marrying a European or having a EU Grandparent/parent etc.?

Born in US, but lived in Canada for 10 years and took dual citizenship.

Loved my time in Canada and made life-long friends. In my opinion, quality of life is better north of the US border.

Despite this I returned to the US almost 20 years ago and don't think I'll ever go back.

I am able to earn double what I would in Canada in my current career. They say money isn't everything, but I couldn't rationalize it any longer.

There is something I can't easily articulate about Canadian sensibilities that made me feel stifled and held back.

I understand others may have different experiences, but that was mine and I can quantify it.

Lovely people, but tall poppy syndrome (or the Canadian variant) is woven into the culture, to a fault.

R66 Generally that's true. But you can always look into other opportunities where EU countries extend citizenship. For example, in Portugal, if you have enough money to invest in the Golden Visa program they fast-track your citizenship. Several countries are looking for investments in exchange for a passport.

Just what Spain needs, OP…

Another bottom.

It's not easy to just move to another country - most have strict entry requirements.

Seems most replies are for those hoping to move, not from those who have already moved.

R66

The best way to do it is to just show up. Once here they will deal with you.

I'd like to echo r28. I've lived in France and Italy and it really is extremely difficult to make any meaningful local friendships as an ex-pat. Sure, the face of the owner at the place I eat lights up as he bellows "Ciao Bello" and he seems genuinely happy to see me, but he's not really my friend. You really are forced to hang out with other English-speaking ex-pats, the exact thing you were trying to run away from. But I'm an introvert and not bothered solitude.

There are several websites and apps for organising meet-ups and events for ex-pats. Went to one of them and they really are filled with international workers and students all complaining about how their befriended foreigners back home and how they've tried everything from visiting bars to baking cakes for neighbours to no avail. They're right about one thing, though: English-speaking societies are more welcoming in that regard. It's easier for an international person to assimilate.

R74 My experience is the opposite of yours.

I have lived in Italy and Germany (I work in France often) and I find it vastly easier to make meaningful local friendships than it ever was in the US. I never spend time with expats. I am not an introvert and that may have something to do with it.

I mostly believe you about France, r75. However, here in Rome, just yesterday, a transplant from Turin was telling me he still only has surface friendships after a year because it's not easy to infiltrate tightly-knit groups of friends, most going all the way back to childhood. Sure, I go out for drinks with colleagues after work and we organised a trip to the beach together this past summer, but are they [italic] really [/italic] friends? If they were going through a tough time, would they approach me for a loan, or me them? Are they the kind of people who would show up at my apartment unannounced, go straight to the fridge for a beer without asking then plonk on the couch and turn on the game? Do I leave them my key and ask them to water my plants when I'm home visiting family? We're not there yet.

I don't want anyone approaching me for a loan or come to my apartment unannounced and help themselves. In any country I would find that offensive. Lack of this behavior means they have manners and respect.

I do leave keys and they take care of plants and animals and I do the same.

I immigrated to the UK in the mid-90s from the U.S. (having lived in Chicago, LA and having spent a lot of time in NYC) and have been living in London for the last 25 years. It’s seen better days, certainly better times. When I left the U.S. it was about 3 weeks after Bill Clinton had won re-election. The only reason I would go back now would be for work but I feel more of a pull towards France. I’ll always feel a connection to the UK but it has fallen off a bit. Quite a bit. Still it doesn’t make me long for the U.S. - as someone else mentioned: HEALTH CARE. Returning to the U.S., I don’t think I could bear the cost of health care and the health care system.

After coming of age in the ‘80s, under Reagan, I’ve never missed the U.S. But you’re always an American. And it is one of several influences in the world so even when you live abroad you’re still exposed to it; there’s nothing to pine away for because it never goes away.

Still, I wouldn’t want to be in it. Unless it was for work and even then only temporary.

r77 You're taking my post very literally. I think I have a higher threshold for what constitutes a friendship. It's not about wanting someone to approach me for a loan, but knowing that if something bad were to happen, they would not second-guess confiding in me. I also like it when people are comfortable around me and my home that they don't have to walk on eggshells or not be themselves. That's when I can honestly call them friends.

But that is not what you said R79. None of my friends walk on eggshells and all are comfortable. And yes, we do confide in each other thing things are rough and covid made it rough for many.

When you write in a literal fashion you will be taken literally.

R80 Speaking of writing ..... "we do confide in each other thing things...." LOL

Bruges, Belgium.

R63 there is a difference between “getting by” or really taking part in the society you choose to live in.

That said: Language should always be the least excuse. Find yourself a great tutor or a language school, and you’ll pick it up in no time.

It’s always appreciated when someone does his best to speak the local language. Gives you lots of goodwill.

I’ve wanted to leave for years but I’m a poor and it isn’t possible, plus I’m already married so I can’t find a sugar daddy to help.

I moved to Germany for 8 years, came back to the US for 10, left again this year and I don't have any desire to go back. I am in Mexico now, but I intend to spend some time in Ecuador and Portugal before I decide where to plant roots. I can't take the selfishness and greed of US society any more and if you want to live anywhere decent, you need to be wealthy and/or work your ass off to survive. You get nickel and dimed to death with sales tax, tipping culture, "service fees," etc. It all feels like a giant scam. I hate how car dependent most places are, especially if you want to live somewhere warm. I hate how commercialized everything is. I hate the disgusting homeless camps and mentally ill zombies roaming the streets. I hate how wasteful, shallow, and short-sighted most of the people are. The US feels completely soulless...it's been on a downward spiral since 9/11, I would say. I don't think it can ever recover.

R85 You think the US is better than Mexico? As a Mexican who lived his first 10 years there, I can tell you are full of shit.

I don’t think he’s saying that at all.

Stop trying to “real housewives” this shit.

Not sure I’d leave. The rest of the world is far from all that they think they’re somehow “better” than the US.

And yes, that sentence is a mess. But so is the world.

No, I will not go back. I did miss “the American spirit» for some time, all though I could never describe with words exactly what that entailed. Now it feels like USA is a cruel society with a lot of great people. As have been mentioned, many are a few medical issues away from poverty. I do not feel safe there. I do not trust that people’s interests are guarded by elected officials, since money runs the show.

Nowhere is perfect. But most western countries have more of a safety net in place for you, should the shit hit the fan (I think).

Where are you, R89? And R85? Where do you think you might land?

The grass is always greener on the other side. Spoiled Americans who live in the richest economy in the world want to leave it with false hopes of better. 😆

Sorry, Ecuador is a shithole.

R90 Norway. Weather sucks.

It may very well just depend on how old you were when you left and if there was family in the US you wanted to see but couldn't leave. At some point you will learn you just want to stay put and where you are has become your home.

R94 good point. Friends and family ( can) matter more than anything else.

[quote]The grass is always greener on the other side. Spoiled Americans who live in the richest economy in the world want to leave it with false hopes of better. 😆

Newsflash...millions of Americans have already left and enjoy happy lives in other countries.

The "richest economy" doesn't mean shit if the average citizen gets little benefit. No right to healthcare, no right to paid time off work, unaffordable housing, terrible public transit, skyrocketing food costs...what a dream! 🙄

I plan to leave the U.S. in 2023 and retire to Italy. I have more extended family there than I have left here. Also inherited a modest home/land which certainly makes the decision easier.

Are you of Italian descent, r97? Presumably with an Italian passport?

^^^^Yes, thus the "extended family and land there" and dual citizenship.

I do sometimes binge "House Hunters International" and fantasize about what life would be living as an expat.

I used to travel a lot for work in Before Times and met many Americans who live inside an expat bubble--it's easy to do that and, especially in developing countries, the expat business people, working for US companies, lived exponentially better than they would in the US-- lots of household staff, parties at various Western embassies, lots of travel opportunities in the region.

I think it would be hard to come back to the US after living overseas for many years.

So, I grew up in a very "I am proud to be an American" family. I was raised to believe, as I think most Americans are, that the US is the best country on Earth. When I was in my late 20s, I got the opportunity to move to the UK to peruse a masters degree. I went, very hesitantly, and 15 years later I have not looked back. America might be the richest country on Earth but it is fucked up. America is a very insulated culture that has little knowledge of the world beyond it's borders.

LOL! Most of you ex-pats are probably white liberals who hate the US, anyway. I've never met a conservative who spoke ill of their home country. I don't get American liberals and their self-loathing. Good riddance! That is one of the reasons why I stopped associating with and voting for liberals. They have anti-America views. It's one thing to be critical of your country, but they outright hate it. Why would I want someone like that running the country? The funny thing is, they go on about how horrible it is here, but then encourage illegal immigrants to come live here. 😂

R102, I suppose you think Trump and Capitol insurrectionists also help to make this country great?

R102 i do not hate my country. I still act in my own best interest. There is a lot to be proud of, a lot to be ashamed of also, being American. If my country can not provide me with what I need, I go somewhere else.

R85, how do you support yourself? I would like to move to Mexico.

R105 Have fun with shitty healthcare, no police, no democracy, cartels running cities, etc. If you don't have strings to be part of the corrupt ones in Mexico, you'll just be another peasant. It really astonishes me how some people complain about the US not being "enough," when they have lived here their whole lives and have no idea what oppression and corruption really is.

Yeah, sure, R102--what do you love best about the good ol' USA? The fact that if you get cancer it can bankrupt you because of the staggering costs of the corrupt healthcare system? Or maybe you like the fact that any lunatic can buy an automatic rifle and take out a schoolroom all in the name of the Second Amendment? What a country! 😂

I considered it several years ago. I was left a piece of property on the island of St. Maarten by a close cousin upon his death. When he was still alive I spent 6 months there and with the help of my relatives there who are very close to a few high placed government officials I was able to get a permanent residency visa. But then my cousin died, and before I could make the move my remaining relatives decided to move back to The Netherlands, and I didn't want to move to St. Maarten with no family on the island. I eventually was able to sell the property, and at this point I'm just too old to think about uprooting to another country. And besides, I have a pretty good life here, and as much as I hate the political climate the goings on in Washington even in the Trump years didn't really negatively affect me lifestyle. I keep holding out hope that one day before I die I'll be able to see the total destruction of the Republican party. I know it probably won't happen, but the hope that it will keeps me going.

No answer from the great patriot R102/R105 to the questions about the shitty and astronomically expensive US healthcare system, the out-of-control mass shootings, the turn toward fascism, the MAGAts (R102/R105 sounds like a MAGAt herself), the redistricting, the attempts to make it very hard for "certain" people to vote, the claims of nearly half the country that a legitimate election isn't legitimate because their guy lost...I repeat: what a country! 😂

Sorry, R105--I meant thee MAGAt at R106,not you.

R110 Prove me wrong, and I'll give you a cookie.

Answer the questions, R111, you coward.

R111 doesn't have the guts to talk about the unaffordable US healthcare system, the price gouging of big Pharma, the regularly scheduled mass shootings, the fascists who want their dear cult leader reinstated...

R112 and R113 What questions? That Mexico's healthcare is better than the US? First of all, in Mexico you have to pay in advance in order to be admitted to a hospital or doctor's office. If you don't have money, you're not entering. Did I mention several hospitals there have been caught with injecting children water instead of chemotherapy? Did I mention COVID-19 tests aren't free over there? Insurances mostly don't cover any procedures?

About mass shootings in the US, sorry, but Mexico has them daily, mainly on the streets. Always cartel vs cartel or cartel vs "military." But again, shootings are honestly the least of your problem there. You mainly deal with muggers, kidnappers, and assaulters on a daily basis. No matter your financial status, it's likely you will face this there. Not to mention, kidnapping young boys and women to recruit them in their cartels, either as narcos or homemakers/sex slaves. It's either that or get killed on the spot.

You see fascism every single day here? Lmao, try crossing the border sometime. Like I said, if you're not of the elite, you're just another peasant. Everyone knows every single election in Mexico is rigged. No, Trump's election wasn't rigged or stolen. The moron has no idea what a stolen election is like. These elections over there are indeed stolen. Lobbying is the ONLY way to make it there if you want a decent salary, and not live paycheck by paycheck.

But have fun complaining about your disposable income and how "oPpResSeD" you are living in basically paradise. I'm sure daddy's trust fund is paying out well. I wonder why millions of immigrants want to come to the US (or any other country), just as long as they leave Mexico. When you have experienced any of this, you can come back to me and I'll clap for you to... uhm... satisfy your glass feelings?

New Zealand was the trendy destination for celebrities like Lens to declare they would move to if Trump won the election, but thankfully we have dodged that particular bullet.

We already have enough earthquakes without Lens walking around her property.

I’m not sure Europe is such a great place to move to. They are experiencing a MAJOR energy shortage ( primarily natural gas) and HUGE increase in electricity rates. There might be some people unable to heat their homes this winter 🥶 especially in the UK.

R114 bangs on about Mexico as if that's the only country we're talking about, and indulges in "what absolutism" in order, in true cowardly fashion, to avoid addressing ANY of the issues of shitty healthcare, rampant gun violence, idiots who make up half the country who believe in a charlatan who lost a legitimate election, etc. Why don't you use Canada as a comparison, R114? Ireland? Sweden? Etc., etc.

R117 Spoken like a true spoiled brat, while living here your whole life. Show us those crocodile tears. Are you sure you're not MAGA? You seem to be throwing tantrums over not having lobster while you're given caviar.

So, gutless R118 can't use her specious arguments when it comes to Canada or any other country because she knws she can't apply them. I'll do it for you--any of those other countries I listed are better than the US whe it comes to healthcare, gun violence, the integrity of the election process. And no, darling, we know who the MAGAt is, and we're looking at you.

But to answer your question, OP, if this country continues what looks like an inexorable turn toward outright right-wing fascism and overturned elections to achieve one-party rule, I would happily leave this shithole. Vancouver looks very nice.

R119 I never said the US was better than those countries. I said it was better than Mexico, which it was my main argument. That is what I responded to R85 and R105. Since you got your ass called out for having a lame and irrelevant opinion on Mexico, you try and bring up other countries to try and sound like you had any idea what you were talking about originally. Nice try though. Will this help you sleep tonight? Sorry, didn't mean to give you a mental breakdown. Did you forget to take your menopause supplements today?

R121, you're just a trolling cunt, but that's okay. You're the one who didn't address the ruinously expensive US healthcare system, gun violence, fascism, etc., and you won't because that will be admitting the very serious problems this country and that make other countries much more appealing. And if all you have to point to is Mexico (because many of us have been talking about other countries that you choose not to acknowledge), then you're pathetic as well as a trolling cunt. See ya.

R122 Thank you for not only ignoring every response I wrote regarding each thing you pointed out, but for proving my point even more. Your only remedy at this point is to call me a "troll" and a "cunt," because clearly you have no valid argument other than your pathetic comebacks and names. You're talking like you're trying to reach the word limit on an essay. All of your words are empty. But again, debating people like you is like playing chess with a pigeon. You’ll knock all the pieces over, shit on the board, and strut around like you've proven something. Go take your Xanax now.

I love how ex-pats like to pretend they spend all their free time laid up in a hospital. Yes, the healthcare system in the US is broken, but even living in a wealthy western European country, I missed the quality of my US doctors...to the point I would travel back home for dental and dermatology appointments.

for those who DID move, how did you get residency/citizenship?

I never had it when I lived in various countries in SE Asia. It is possible to get in several of them but I never bothered with the paperwork. I wasn't really worried about security knowing there was always another country out there to live in. There are lots of options but less so in the richer countries.

r125, it isn't difficult to immigrate to Canada if you are qualified to work under one of the following professions and can get a job offer:

I lived in europe for ten years. I live here now. if i WERE to move away again I'd stay, no question. I have no family so yeah, just die there, where ever that might be

I would come back to visit...but come back forever? nah.

I consider leaving at some point however I’m single . Thought of semi retirement age moving to another country doesn’t seem as much fun as if I were in my 20s, or 30s. If I were partnered up or had family elsewhere it would be more viable for me.

In retrospect, I made a huge mistake coming back to CA from the UK when I finished school instead of waiting out my visa. As soon as I got back home, I knew I had made a huge mistake. There is a proper safety net in the UK. Free medical care, free flat if you are homeless, even in nice neighborhoods. They have free council flats above Stella McCartney in Kensington. There is a 3 month minimum notice termination vs. losing your job at will, at any moment. Three months gives you time to prepare.

In American, if you lose your health, your job, and/or are broke, you are FUCKED! All you have is the street. We are seeing it everywhere. There is no safety net for Americans. Especially as I think about getting older, it's worth having all the protections many western countries have. I agree with whoever said America is all about $$$ and that is the one thing both parties have in common. American might be a rich country, but not individual Americans.

r131, on point! Do US is the richest country in the world doesn’t affect most of us who live here. It’s very competitive, very expensive dangerous and stressful. Precarious as we can or Qatar lives in a be wiped out by an illness or a loss of job. Everyman from self here. And the money doesn’t trickle down we are all struggling to survive. Yes it’s deafly not as bad as a lot of the world for sure. But it’s no utopia. Like anything you make a lot of your own luck, Layoffs and illnesses are not always within her control. It’s a tenuous position and if you live a paycheck to pay check existence is a lot better than many others here. There ARE wonderful things about this country but A lot of struggling and many people living below the poverty line and just making it.

I moved away from the USA at age 23 and much prefer living abroad. I've lived and worked in Japan, South Korea, Canada, and Mexico. I chose to stay in southern Mexico and have been here for the past 13 years. Now in my 40s, I am a naturalized citizen of Mexico. Best decision I ever made; I have zero intention of ever going back to the shithole that is the USA.

R114 You're clearly an ignorant fool who doesn't know jack shit of what you're blathering about. Dumbass.

I advise everyone to examine the criteria for passports, you might be surprised by your options. I myself have no particular desire to choose any country full-time to exclusion of all others; very obviously each country has its drawbacks and benefits.

R134 If you're R133, congrats for being part of the elite in Mexico, where you get to lobby people and politicians. If you're not R133, I bet typing from your computer is way more comfortable and easier than actually experiencing living in oppression and corruption.

I was born in Ireland but spent nearly 80% of my life in the US. Now I live in Portugal and I don't see myself returning to the States.

LMAO...the US is a shithole, but Mexico is not. I guess that's why over a million Americans try to illegally cross the border each year.

It's perfectly fine to prefer life in Mexico over life in the US, but facts exist and Mexico has proven to be a corrupt shithole.

I moved to Japan in 1991 and could not imagine moving back now even to NYC, where I lived previously, let alone anywhere else in the US.

I am preparing for the possibility of a full on GOP fascist take over in 2024…..have an exit strategy with a temporary resident visa in Mexico with a final destination to move to Madrid in Spain. I speak Spanish and have been putting the $$$ aside to buy a home in Spain to qualify for their residency visa program. I am at the end of the baby boomer generation and don’t want to spend my retirement years living in a state of chaos….it feels like we could be heading to some version of the UK - Northern Ireland IRA situation except without the warnings…..have had friends who have already left the country say “it is better to be ready two years too early than be caught behind a day late”….

I’d leave and would only return to visit some family members. Very few family members, in fact.

I’m not a social introvert. I’m totally an extrovert who has zero issues picking up most languages quite easily and quickly, yet I have zero issues with doing stuff alone, or going through periods of time as a loner. I would hope that I’d easily socialize and integrate into any civilized society. That’s not a huge challenge or fear for me because I’m genuinely friendly and in the end, being respectful and considerate goes a long way.

So yes, OP. I’d leave. Spain would be easy easy as I speak fluent Spanish. Same with Italy and France. My Italian and French are fantastic but good enough to get by until further notice. Lol.

Go for it, OP. You only live once, so why not? So many place are better than here. I love the United States, but we are all justifiably sick of the political bullshit dividing Americans. I do not believe the political climate here will change for the better any time soon, and besides… Spaniard men are HOT AF! Women there are hot, too. 😘

* are NOT fantastic at this time

Sounds like a great plan, R140; wish I had the $$ to do that.

I guess I'll just keep biding my time. The next election will tell the tale.

[quote]Sick of MANY Americans & their RIDICULOUS tribalism!

Obviously R141 hasn't lived in a European country for any length of time.

Exactly, R144. I was at a party in a southern Bavarian village where a guest was teased all night for being from northern Bavaria. Danes vs Swedes...Greeks and Cypriots vs Turks...secessionist movements in Spain, Germany, and the UK...Hell, foreign policy experts are currently sitting on pins and needles because current conditions in Bosnia & Herzegovina are similar to those that led up to the war in the mid-90's.

Poverty, economic inequality, and political polarization are no less a problem in Europe than the US. However, when Germany, Belgium, or the Netherlands fail to form a government, it's no big deal. Women are effectively denied access to abortions in Italy, Spain, and Germany, who cares?

Bullshit, r145, for most of your post, but most definitely for the part about women being denied abortions. If anything, abortion is less controversial (except among the religious) than in the US, and the laws are settled. There is, for example, a very clear principle in Austria and most German states that a first-trimester abortion is a woman's right, no questions asked. After that term, there are different rules in different territories, but the Netherlands are one country where a woman from elsewhere can easily get an abortion beyond 12 weeks.

There is also no "secessionist" movement in Germany, hello?

It's true what you say about Bosnia, though.

R146, I don't make things up for the hell of it. However, living in Europe made me realize nasty, xenophobic comments about the US often go unchecked.

I'm an American who is often disappointed in America. However, outside of social benefits disparities and gun violence, there's little difference between the US and most wealthy European countries.

Abortion in Germany...article from 2021

Just like Texas, abortion is a right in Italy, but good luck trying to get one!

The US should just make things legal and then put up barriers...like Spain. Then we'd be beloved (article linked is from 2 months ago, not 1950)

[Quote]There is also no "secessenionist" movement in Germany, hello?

R146 highlights perfectly the European mentality: If you ignore reality, life is so much better on this side of the Atlantic Ocean.

I have no fantasies that Europe is any better in terms of tribalism and divisions, but we may end up there if Trump or his successor ends up winning 2024.

We have a way in and would probably stay for the rest of our lives.

There is no perfect country in the world...they all have various issues that may or may not affect your daily existence. It comes down to finding a place where you can have (and afford) the lifestyle you desire. You only live once and not everyone dreams of living in flyoverland USA until they die.