The Philadelphia Story vs. High Society, which movie is better?

Threads can only have one poll but which movie had the better cast?

[quote][bold]The Philadelphia Story:[/bold]

[quote][bold]release year:[/bold] 1941

[quote][bold]director:[/bold] George Cukor

[quote][bold]stars:[/bold] Katharine Hepburn, Cary Grant, & Jimmy Stewart

[quote][bold]reception:[/bold] won 2 Oscars (best screenplay, best lead actor-Jimmy Stewart), nominated for an additional 4), 5th most popular box film of the year

[quote][bold]genre:[/bold] screwball comedy (or remarriage comedy)

*****

[quote][bold]High Society:[/bold]

[quote][bold]release year:[/bold] 1956

[quote][bold]director:[/bold] Charles Walters

[quote][bold]stars:[/bold] Bing Crosby, Grace Kelly, Frank Sinatra

[quote][bold]reception:[/bold] nominated for 2 Oscars, both for music–it almost received a third nomination for best story, which was one of the academy’s more famous gaffes considering that 15 years earlier they gave an Oscar to the original screenplay. It was the 10th highest grossing film that year.

[quote][bold]genre:[/bold] musical

[quote][bold]fun fact:[/bold] This was Grace Kelly’s final screen performance before marrying the Prince of Monaco.

*****

[quote][bold]Here’s the basic plot of both films:[/bold] The divorced Tracy Lord is getting married again. To save her father’s reputation, she is allowing two reporters from Spy magazine to report on her nuptials. What follows is a comedy with plenty of love triangles and emotion before Tracy ultimately decides what’s important and who she’s going to spend the rest of her life with.

I’m trying to think of Hepburn movies I actually like. There aren’t many. “The lion in winter” and “summertime” might be the only two where she doesn’t get on my nerves. That being said, I really don’t like Musicals like “high society”.

The Philadelphia Story original trailer

High Society trailer

OP screamed at me and called me an idiot on the other thread when he was the idiot who asked us to compare "Philadelphia" and "High Society," and now he's dramatically sulking when he was the one who made the stupid mistake in the first place.

Both portray fictional worlds many DLers desperately wish to inhabit

Tracy Lord was based on a real person, R8.

They both have their ups and downs and Hepburn's performance is exquisite with Cukor's direction at its best. I also like Ruth Hussey very much. But the whole idea of Hepburn needing to be taken down a peg is stupid but it's what made it such a huge success. Grace is lovely but has all the talent of wet cement.

Still High Society has two great duets-Crosby and Sinatra in Well Did You Evah and Crosby and Armstrong in Now You Has Jazz. Also the opening with Armstrong.

I love the colour in the remake but all the performers are lame.

Thanks, R9, I didn't know that. She even looks a little like Hepburn.

The Philadelphia Story has better acting.

The Philadelphia Story had a competent director. I don't know who did the remake.

Ruth Hussey was so much better than Celeste Holm.

Holm doing her "I'm really a leading actress & deserve much better than this part" acting that she alwys did is insufferable here - as usual. She ALMOST sank ALL ABOUT EVE.

By this time Cole Porter was merely a cripple with only a rhyming dictionary as support.

He had lost his finesse. His lyrics could no longer support a 3 minute song.

The Philadelphia Story was yar.

Fat-faced Grace Kelly wasn't yar.

"High Society" was pleasant, but "The Philadelphia Story" was brilliant. No contest here.

Sidney Blackmer was interesting, wasn't he?

That fabulous mansion used in the Grace Kelly version— is that the same mansion that the Obamas bought?

From the other thread:

[quote] Antonio Banderas spices things up a bit as his boyfriend.

[quote] Because he’s a person of color? Because of his Spanishness, his natural heat.

The Philadelphia Story is superior in every department. The best performance in that film is by Ruth Hussey. She’s funny, deft, and self-effacing but her performance is memorable. She’s all the more remarkable since her character has none of the flashy characteristics of the other three leads.

Thanks OP. I have had a passionate opinion about this for years. Having grown up near the “inspiration” for the story outside Philly, I saw Philadelphia Story early and often and loved it. I had been waiting to see High Society years after seeing Philadelphia Story. I loved the idea of Grace Kelly - the prototypical if fake Main Line girl - as the lead. I was appalled, disgusted and confused. Bing Crosby???? A musical??? Rhode Island estate??? It was - and is - so so wrong.

Katharine Hepburn was a perfect overprivileged, overconfident wealthy WASP. Grace was an insecure wannabe playing the role. Cary Grant was a graceful, elegant, charming, handsome man who anyone would fall for. Bing Crosby was someone’s grandfather with zero charm, wit or charisma.

They just recently developed the property on which the story is based. Impressive it lasted into the 21st century.. And they are doing a decent job of preserving large parts of it thanks to the oversight by Hope Montgomery Scott’s son (grandson?). Plus now you can actually drive up to the main estate which was invisible from the main road.

Well, High Society leaves The Opposite Sex in the dust.

Yes, R25. Say what you will about Grace Kelly, she's 1000% better than June Allyson.

[quote]That fabulous mansion used in the Grace Kelly version— is that the same mansion that the Obamas bought?

No. It's Clarendon Court, the same mansion that Sunny von Bulow owned, and where she lapsed into her coma.

It is often considered the single most beautiful house in Newport, RI, and it's worth watching the movie just to see the scenes shot there.

R26 Shirley Booth and Marie Dressler would've been better than June Allyson.

[quote] Shirley Booth and Marie Dressler would've been better than June Allyson.

Depends.

High Society dilutes Philadelphia Story, but it really does have its charms. It's such a low key musical.

[quote]Cary Grant was a graceful, elegant, charming, handsome man who anyone would fall for. Bing Crosby was someone’s grandfather with zero charm, wit or charisma.

Yeah, I don't understand why they chose Bing Crosby.

Grace found him worthy of a roll in the hay.

R15, I wish Eve Arden or Marsha Hunt had been cast instead of Celeste Holm in All About Eve.

There's no comparison between High Society and the much better Philadelphia Story.

I hated Ruth Hussey and James Stewart in TPS. Hussey came off as a low rent Roz Russell and Stewart, to me, is inept and one note as he is in most of his roles. But the age gap between Crosby and Kelly in HS was too blatant to ignore. And they lacked chemistry. And I hated how the father blames his daughter for his cheating because she didn’t respect him enough. Utter bullshit, even for 1940.

Both films have flaws but Hepburn played so well off of Grant. They had as much chemistry together as Hepburn had with Spencer Tracy and that Grant had with Irene Dunne.

Next poll: Which is better--Tracy Lord or Traci Lords?

R3, actually the gaffe regarding the third nomination for High Society in the Best Writing, Motion Picture Story was the Academy’s confusing the credits of a 1955 Bowery Boys film of the same name. Rather bizarre that such a mixup could occur:

[quote] The screenwriters graciously and voluntarily declined the nomination. The Academy had inadvertently confused their quickly-made Bowery Boys series entry called High Society with the similarly titled Cole Porter musical High Society (1956), which came out the following year and would have been eligible for adapted screenplay only. The nomination was officially revoked for both films and is listed for the purpose of information only.

Actually Huntz Hall might have been better than Crosby.

When the bluray of High Society comes out and I hope soon I'll get it for the color, the musical numbers and location scenery(there's not enough of it from what I remember.) The book scenes are deadly. Not one of Walters better movies but dumping Grace Kelly on him was an onerous burden. Instead of Crosby they could have used Astaire and put Charisse in the Traci role with a couple of sensational dance numbers as in the following years Silk Stockings. Astaire and Sinatra and Astaire and Armstrong would have been glorious. And Astaire and Charisse dancing together are among the finest dance numbers ever put on film. There are certainly not enough of them.

Did people complain that Hollywood was out of ideas?

[quote]Instead of Crosby they could have used Astaire and put Charisse in the Traci role with a couple of sensational dance numbers as in the following years Silk Stockings. Astaire and Sinatra and Astaire and Armstrong would have been glorious.

I like this.

Astaire and Crosby were well into their 50s and just too old. It'd have been like casting John Barrymore or Douglas Fairbanks in the original.

[quote] Thanks OP. I have had a passionate opinion about this for years.

MARY!

And the older Astaire got, the uglier he got. Like Jiminy Cricket.

As someone pointed out above, The Philadelphia Story does NOT have Celeste Holm, so it gets my vote. Holm worked in All About Eve because Karen Richards is ultimately a nothingburger—a foil for Margo and a necessary catalyst for a plot development. That’s about all Holm was good for. Her Oscar for Gentleman’s AgreementJ was a result of a recent Broadway performer going to Hollywood and the liberal politics (but not too lefty) her character symbolized. It was an odd year for the acting Oscars—Colman getting a career award for one of his least accomplished performances, Young for doing a barely passable Swedish accent (and because voters found Mourning Becomes Electra dull and resented Russell’s relentless campaigning), and Edmund Gwen (who was a good choice, though Robert Ryan would have been a gutsier one) for playing Kris Kringle. His performance has lasted and he did an excellent job of walking the line between whimsy and delusion. Plus he was always engaging.

R44, I assume your final 2 sentences refer to Gwen rather than Ryan? Both were always engaging but Ryan never risked being whimsical.

Ryan was never attractive

Puhleeze! Robert Ryan was a hot black Irish dude.

Robert Ryan was sexy. I loved him in “crossfire”, “the set up” and “clash by night”. He had a sexy animal magnetism almost rivalling Brando in “streetcar”

[quote] Robert Ryan was sexy

For 5 years only. His face turned craggy, wrinkled and sneering.

I watched both back-to-back (thanks HBO Now!) and Philadelphia Story was far superior in every way. Ok, Grace Kelly made a better Tracy Lord, but High Society was a piece of shit. I felt soooooo sorry for Celeste Holm. Not her character...her.

[quote] High Society was a piece of shit.

That is a very ugly phrase. Put it in the toilet.

[quote] Robert Ryan was sexy.

Can you find an appealing picture?

I found this picture of Mrs Ugly and Mr Ugly.

^ No, that's Mother Ugly and her bratty, teen Ugly.

High Society is pretty mediocre but I wouldn't call it a piece of shit. Dr. Dolittle and Star! are shit.

R45. Yes, I meant Gwen not Ryan—sorry for that he unclear referent. The idea of Ryan even trying to be whimsical is amusing—though he did do a flop Irving Berlin musical, “Mr. President,” with DL faves Nanette Fabray and Anita Gillette. As Bette Midler didn’t, but might have said, I never miss a Robert Ryan musical.

Even when looking old as in Silk Stockings Astaire's singing and dancing are absolute perfection. Far beyond what anyone is capable of today. Just the few brief moments of his handling a chair before moving in on Charisse before they dance in All of You is astonishing. I'm like is this guy for real? As in how is he doing that?

Thanks, R55 -- I didn't know that Robert Ryan ever did musical theatre. Perhaps he said to himself "Well, Cagney has succeeded as both a hoofer and a gangster, so....".

This is no contest, The Philadelphia Story is perfection, High Society is meh. I agree that Ruth Hussey steals almost every scene she is in. I would also say Cary Grant is a little too perfect, no one in their right mind would leave him. Hepburn was at her peak.

Unlike most, i think Celeste Holm plays very well in All About Eve. Even physically, she gives all the vibes of a good woman while her character is more complicated and, for that, more shocking.

Phila story, no contest

"High Society," besides having the musical elements, to me represented late-"classic" MGM when its sets, filming and music were no longer identifiable so much as being Metro as starting to seem generic in those elements across all the major studios at that time from the mid- and late-1950s.

[quote] I don't know who did the remake.

Was the director of the remake just another ex-dancer and homosexual?

I think High Society’s biggest flaw was that it was thoroughly forgettable. There wasn’t a single memorable song and Grace Kelly had zero chemistry with Bing Crosby or Frank Sinatra (who both liked old enough to be her father…whereas Katharine Hepburn, Carey Grant and Jimmy Stewart were all roughly the same age). Also, there were no standout performances. Stewart and Hussey were revelations, while Hepburn was at the top of her game. While I preferred Grace Kelly as Tracy Lord, I will concede she just seemed like a more natural fit (in both real life biography and looks) and my viewpoint isn’t objectively based on talent.

Holm is very good in Eve in a thankless role. Considering how much she and Davis disliked one another their friendship comes across as very real.

Cole Porter was in his dotage. The champagne had gone flat.

R63 , completely agree, it says so much about being a good actor and belies that, in my view, elusive concept, ‘chemistry’. To me, the week link in All About Eve is Anne Baxter.

Remember as well it wasn't so much that he was in his dotage but he had been living for many years in constant physical pain which fucks up not only your spirit but your mind. It is amazing he did Kiss Me Kate at all.

Holm was undeniably great in All About Eve. I never knew that was a controversial sentiment.

She sucked in High Society though. She couldn’t get through a single line without pausing as if she expected applause.

[quote] he had been living for many years in constant physical pain

Yes I can agree with that but we know so little of the actual pain endured because he tried to keep up appearances.

I saw one clip of him in a TV studio being carried to the piano and his body looked like a well-dressed, collapsed skeleton.

I'm not sure if he had one or two legs amputated but he died shortly after.

I knew the Cary Grant version of Porter's life would be full of fakery.

But the Kevin Klein version seemed almost as bad.

I'm not a fan of it but I believe True Love was a big hit. Didn't the recording win Kelly a Grammy?

R52 No. I admit he does not come across particularly well in still photos but I think in film it comes through. He always gets my attention anyway and as for his smear, I find that part of his appeal and the overall look strikes me as being akin to the Marlborough man which I find sexy.

I meant his Sneer

Dear R73, it seems you like he-men who will abuse you.

R74 just not into useless preening pretty boys.

Fair enough.

Let’s see. 33 years old defiantly striking Hepburn and 36 yo the very CarryGranty Grant as childhood friends/lovers. 32 yo fresh faced Stewart as a fresh faced, idealistic reporter and 28 yo sassy Hussey as his cynical photographer/girlfriend.

Now - 26 years old beautifully blasé Kelly and 53 yo stogy Crosby as childhood friends/lovers. 40 yo rather weary Sinatra as a fresh faced, idealistic reporter and 39 yo matronly Holm as his cynical photographer/girlfriend.

On Broadway, btw, Hepburn was 32, Joseph Cotton was 35, Van Heflin 30. (And then there was Shirley Booth as Liz. Ok, she was 40 at the time, but was known, as she was for many years, to have been born in 1908, therefor considered to be 30).

I’m glad to see the universal acknowledgment of the absurdity of Bing Crosby’s casting. It was one of the most disastrous, inept casting decisions ever made.

Well not quite. It helped to make the movie a hit.

R79, musicals need people who can sing and that's what Crosby did well. He was also good as part of a team with Bob Hope and Dorothy Lamour in the "Road" movies. But he wasn't enough of an actor to make a believable lover for the much younger and classically beautiful Grace Kelly. That's what I object to about musicals -- trying to mesh the story with the music may not work and this movie is what happens when it doesn't.

It's funny how in order to make Bing Crosby's casting less ridiculous, the actor playing Tracy's (Kelly) dad looked like her great grandfather.

R80 But he was a very big star at that time and still had a great voice which is what mattered. We don't sense the stardom he had in that moment which is why it doesn't work for us. It was a hit movie so most people at the time didn't have a problem with it. Unless everyone was intrigued by the publicity of Grace marrying Rainier.

Agree with the poster upthread who singled out "True Love" as a HUGE hit song in its time. I was only a small child back then but still remember that song being played everywhere, the Bing original as well as covered on every TV variety hour. We even sang it in a kindergarten assembly show. I think it must have won the Oscar that year for Best Song.

Robert Ryan...

A few fun tidbits that haven't been mentioned:

Shirley Booth created the role of Liz Imbrie in the original Broadway production of The Philadelphia Story, which, of course, starred Hepburn in the role written for her by her old buddy Philip Barry for being banished from Hollywood as Box Office Poison.

Shirley Booth eventually became a star in her own right in Come Back, Little Sheba and then went on to star in 2 other Broadway plays The Desk Set and Time of the Cuckoo, filmed in Hollywood respectively as Desk Set and Summertime, both starring Miss Katharine Hepburn. I wonder if Kate tried to secure the film rights of Sheba for herself, lol?

With The Philadelphia Story such an enormous hit on Broadway, Kate had the leverage to sell the film rights (which she was granted by Barry) to MGM on the condition it starred her and the male co-stars of her choice. It proved to be a good move on both LB Mayer's part as well as Kate's as she scored a huge comeback (Kate as Tracy getting the "comeuppance" needed to dispel the Box Office Poison label) and LB got a brilliant new contract player in Kate.

Barry didn't grant her the film rights, r85. Howard Hughes bought them and gifted them to Kate.

Good ol' Shirl...

[quote]Now - 26 years old beautifully blasé Kelly and 53 yo stogy Crosby as childhood friends/lovers. 40 yo rather weary Sinatra as a fresh faced, idealistic reporter and 39 yo matronly Holm as his cynical photographer/girlfriend.

I assumed Celeste Holm was older than Sinatra because she looked so much older than him in The Tender Trap (and he didn't look that young); she looked old enough to be Debbie Reynolds' mother.

Poor Celeste in her *flats*.

[quote]I think it must have won the Oscar that year for Best Song.

No, it didn't. Doris Day's signature song did.

90 posts and no mention of Virginia Weidler? You bitches are slipping.

She's no Anna Kendrick, r91.

I saw the 1998 Broadway musical of High Society and, believe me, it was not hard for Little Anna Kendrick to steal it.

It looked like a train wreck…and Anna was the only survivor.

[quote] Actually Huntz Hall might have been better than Crosby.

They both looked like weasels.

And Crosby would be inaudible without his microphone.

When Hepburn took the film rights Mayer, she demanded Gable and Tracy as her costars. They were then MGM's top two male stars and Mayer basically told her to get over herself. But he did offer her her old friend and costar Grant and rising newcomer Stewart and she was smart enough to say yes.

^ And he offered her Cukor to direct. No way she was saying no.

I don’t really care for High Society, the ages of the two fellas is too jarring with Kelly as their love interest. But it is going to be screening as a TCM fathom event and I am tempted to spend the money to see it on the big screen

Kelly and Crosby (the Ice-Queen and Bald-Weasel) were an odd, unappealing duo.

I have studiously avoided watching their previous movie—

The Country Girl is unwatchable to me.

Did Grace Kelly ever do a film in which her husband/boyfriend/lover wasn't at least 20 years older than her?

^ William Holden, 11 years her senior, was the closest to her, age wise, she got.

It's kind of like Audrey Hepburn until things flipped and she was older than her co stars.

The film is pretty much forgotten but wasn't THE SWAN actually Grace Kelly's final film? Her co-star was Louis Jourdan who must have been fairly close in age.

Grace Kelly and Audrey Hepburn, as well as Marilyn Monroe and Leslie Caron rarely played opposite men of their own age. It was a thing back in the early 1950s.

Maybe The Swan was filmed after HS but it was released earlier.

[quote] The film is pretty much forgotten but wasn't THE SWAN actually Grace Kelly's final film? Her co-star was Louis Jourdan who must have been fairly close in age.

The point of 'The Swan' was that she was paired with a disinterested, asexual man 15 years her senior. But she runs off with a stolid, superficially-handsome man 8 years her senior.

I remember as a child reading in my older sister's movie magazine that THE SWAN was Grace Kelly's Swan Song to Hollywood, and never forgot that term.

I'm watching The Shop Around the Corner with Stewart and Margaret Sullivan. It's been so many years since I've seen it I barely remember it and wow is it good. 1940 was such a good year for Stewart. Corner, Mortal Storm and Philadelphia Story with an Oscar for the last.

[quote] It's Clarendon Court, the same mansion that Sunny von Bulow owned, and where she lapsed into her coma.

And due to an editing error, if you look carefully at 46:20, you’ll see Sunny in bed connected to life support.

WHET Inez Courtney?

I like High Society better because it was on all the time when I was twelve. I used my cassette player to record the songs and the dialogue scenes that I liked. Then I danced around my bedroom, singing along and acting out the scenes. My dad would have preferred that I played golf or went to football games. My mom bought me a VCR when they became something that middle class teenagers owned. But I never bothered to rent or record High Society. It has great moments (most of the songs), but is boring and mediocre when they aren't singing, and sort of tacky even when they are.

Philadelphia Story IS better, in just about every way. It's an exemplar of the cinematic art of its time. I Love Celeste Holm, but Ruth Hussey is divine. Not a fair comparison.

I'm waiting for 12 Days to Christmas, r109.

Are you now watching Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House, r109?

No, r14, I'm not, though normally I would. I love the film but I've just seen it too many times and am not interested tonight. I've switched to a Chicago Fire rerun on ION.

^ r114.

^ And now I've switched to the local news for election results.

^ New York is moving from a highly stupid corrupt mayor to a merely stupid mayor.

"The Swan" was a big failure, but it has an interesting cast--Brian Aherne, Estelle Winwood.

Good ol' Estelle...

The local news ended and I tried a few more minutes of Chicago Fire and then CSI: Miami, couldn't get into them and now am now finally at Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House.

Mrs. Blandings and her flower sink and something about Wham!

"But it was just four little flagstones!"

Mr. Blandings steals his maid's comment about Wham! as his new advertising slogan and obviously gets tens of thousands in bonuses and salary and he gives her a $10 raise.

Cultural Appropriation!

And now Arsenic and Old Lace! Haven't seen that in years either. Guess it's going to be a late night. God bless Movies! TV.

Oh, this is delicious but sick. No wonder this genre was called black comedy.

R123, Check out "Murder, He Says" 1945, Fred MacMurray.

I used to watch tons of movies on Movies! TV, everything was crystal clear, but then a few months ago all my substations became slightly pixelated I don’t know why. But I also haven’t done anything to find out or fix it.

MGM started producing several remakes of earlier hits (some theirs, some not) when they ran out of ideas in the late 1940s. Besides High Society, they also tried Little Women (1949), My Man Godfrey (1957), You Can't Run Away From It (1956, based on It Happened One Night), Interlude (1957, based on When Tomorrow Comes) and The Opposite Sex (1956, based on The Women).

All 5 starred DL Scourge JUNE ALLYSON.

Neither movie are all that good to be honest.

Tonight is Westerns.

I think INTERLUDE, YOU CAN'T RUN AWAY FROM IT, and YOU CAN'T RUN AWAY FROM IT were Universal-International films.....

THE OPPOSITE SEX was MGM.

That second YOU CAN'T.......should have been MY MAN GODFREY.....

June Allyson soiled the silver screen the same way she soiled her adult diapers…

What is it about pants and a Peter Pan collar you don't find alluring?

Does that mean that June Allyson left MGM and took up with Universal in the mid-50s?

I love the term "DL Scourge" -- and it fits her perfectly!

R107 That 2 minute scene shows the difference between an American movie performer and a trained theatre professional.

Not many American movie performers have that subtle range of vocal inflections to give depth to the characters and help tell the story.

This was Hepburn’s comeback movie role. She’d been labeled box office poison in 1938 and accepted this stage role. Barry wrote the part with Hepburn as his inspiration. She made a huge hit and I think she took the play on tour. With Howard Hughes help she secured the movie rights. She scored a contract with MGM and bought the movie rights from her. To make sure the movie would be a success they gave her two popular leading men.

She pretty much said if she hadn't secured the rights she would most definitely not have gotten the movie. It probably would have gone to someone like Irene Dunne or DL's very much beloved Norma who I think would have been great in the role.

June Allyson would have been better in High Society than the plaster of Paris Grace.

Or, god forbid, LB's new favorite Greer Garson, r137.

I bet Greer would have had a good shot at it.

Has this been posted?

Ugh - YOU CAN'T RUN AWAY FROM IT was a Columbia picture. MY MAN GODFREY and INTERLUDE and A STRANGER IN MY ARMS were all Junie Allyson films from Universal-International.... And the box office failure of all three of them pretty much ended her career as a movie leading later.

She moved on to television in Dupont Presents The June Allyson Show Starring June Allyson on CBS.

So, the only Allyson remakes from MGM were Little Women (which was originally produced by RKO/Selznick) and The Opposite Sex?

I got so much wrong!

Allyson was married to Dick Powell who led Four Star Television (with David Niven, Charles Boyer and non-owner partner Ida Lupino), a successful production company through the 50s and early 60s. Television was the logical place for her to go and only required some nepotism.

I think that's right R142.

June on Dick...

R132 - I can’t believe that they didn’t dub June’s voice in that number! She sounds like a drunken frog receiving surprise anal.

Sweet interview, r145! Thanks for posting.

The 50's really had a lot of older/younger pairings. Astaire, Bogart, Crosby playing against Grace/Audrey/Leslie Caron etc. Audrey and Leslie especially seemed to be almost solely paired with people twenty plus years older than them.

Well you did have our sainted Joan with Cliff Robertson.

And Joan and Jeff and Joan and Ty.

The DL can shut down now. With this thread it has achieved peak gay.

Interesting how Elizabeth Taylor mostly avoided that May/December thing in her screen relationships.

From her teenage years onward she was mostly cast with men of her generation, from Mickey Rooney, Robert Stack and Peter Lawford in her teens to Monty Clift, Rock Hudson, Jimmy Dean, Paul Newman and, of course, Burton in her early adult years.

Then again, she did suffer through Van Johnson and Robert Taylor, though she never seemed to be "infantilized" in those relationships as Audrey, Grace and Leslie often were in the 1950s.

R95, everybody in films would be inaudible without microphones.

R152, Taylor also played the bride of Peter Finch's character in Elephant Walk and falls for Fernando Lamas as a gangster in The Girl Who Had Everything. Both Finch and Lamas were 16 years Taylor's senior. And Clift was a dozen years older.

Taylor's oddest pairing and plot device was with Henry Fonda as her husband in Ash Wednesday. Fonda was 68 and Taylor was 41 playing a generation older. Her character gets a face to save her doomed marriage, then dallies with much younger Helmut Berger instead.

As one reviewer put it: "Elizabeth Taylor...gets surgery to make her look like, basically, Taylor from 1973. So in effect, the surgery makes her look beautiful and young, like herself who was, ironically, an aged former ingenue."

face lift

r145 I hope someone remember to put several towels down on June's chair.

Hepburn originated the role of Tracey Lord in the stage play. Hepburn got ex-boyfriend Howard Hughes to buy the screen rights on her behalf so she could use the film prospect as leverage to re-start her Hollywood career.

Please read the thread, r157.

TIA!

Was Hepburn ever considered for Scarlett O’Hara?

Hepburn told Cukor, when he was still directing that she would take the part if he wanted her to but neither he nor producer Selznick wanted her. They both loved her but thought she didn't have the innate sexuality the part required.

After the Philadelphia Story put her back on top, there she remained for the rest of her forty-plus years career.

Of course, her full career as a leading lady spanned more than 60 years

What movie are you talking about R160?.

R157 You're at 156 posts on a thread about The Philadelphia Story on a gay site and you have that to offer us?

Too much Yankee starch to play a fiery Southern Belle.

Oh I forgot Hepburn was even interested in the part.

She wasn't really but there was publicly so much difficulty casting Scarlett that Kate let friends Cukor and Selznick know she was there if they if they thought she could help.

But the Scarlett talent hunt was all a publicity stunt and Selznick and Cukor had both seen Leigh in Fire over England and A Yank in Oxford -- Selznick owned personal prints -- and they both expected to cast her. And then she showed up in Hollywood and slayed her competition with her tests.

^ And Selznick's brother Myron was Leigh's agent. She had a secret lock on the part early on. The Scarlett hunt was a huge publicity stunt.

R166 I’ve seen “a yank at oxford” and really can’t see the appeal of Leigh in that film. I don’t see how they saw Scarlett in that film. I admit in “gone with the wind” she is wonderful but I don’t see an inkling of this in “yank”

According to "Memo from David O. Selznick" Selznick owned private prints of many of Leigh's British films and from the beginning she was the dark horse if none of the Hollywood names worked out. And as mentioned above, she blew everyone else out of the water with her first Hollywood tests. Better in her tests than she was in the finished film.

Neither, OP. The 1938 "Holiday" is the best.

Hepburn is so good and funny in these scene.

Kelly had no flair for comedy

I agree with you but outside of Rear Window she didn't have a flair for anything except for looking beautiful.

But it also must be admitted that the role was written for Hepburn, she had a long run on Broadway in order to perfect it(did she tour?) and she had Cukor to help her refine the role for film.

I prefer Holiday as well and it has a supporting cast from God with Lew Ayres, Jean Dixon and Edward Everett Horton.

Grace Kelly, unlike Audrey and Kate Hepburn, Elizabeth Taylor and Marilyn Monroe, never carried a film alone. She was always billed second, after her leading men.

I don't know anything about modelling, but would Grace Kelly have been a good model? Since her looks were outstanding but her acting was mediocre?

oh no R7. Don't do this to me. please oh please.

You are an idiot.

Holiday jumps somersaults over the arch, frenetic Philadelphia Story or bland, unbelievable, poorly cast High Society.

[quote]Holiday jumps somersaults over the arch, frenetic Philadelphia Story

And yet both are by the same playwright.

HOLIDAY has always been hard to take because it asks its audience to be sympathetic to the plight of poor bored little rich girls with too much time on their hands. It would be unrevivable today and was even unsuccessful back in a 90s Broadway production with Laura Linney and Tony Goldwyn.

THE PHILADELPHIA STORY makes fun of those girls. Barry learned.

That was a terrible production. It was hard to believe it was the same work. The Philadelphia Story wouldn't work anymore on stage either. Wasn't there a flop revival at the VB with Goop's more talented. lovely and charming mother?

I never got the feeling that Barry wanted the audience's sympathy for any of the idle rich in Holiday other than Ayres' and Hepburn's characters. Most often he pokes fun at or finds fault with the old guard.

"Holiday" was ahead of its time--pre-Beatnik era, pre'1960s. The Rich-Girl-Learns-a-Lesson message in "Philadelphia" wasn't about dropping out and turning your back on ruling-class snobbery including that of your family and social strata. It was a "Taming of the Shrew," uppity-female-learns-to-be-a-good-wife message.

I think Hepburn and Ayres' poor little rich kids are precisely the characters who are hard to take these days (and maybe back then, too). Not the actors' fault, they play them to the hilt as written. Granted, I haven't seen the film in years and the last production I saw was way back in the early 80s at Williamstown with Blythe Danner and Marisa Berenson as the sisters, Christopher Reeve as the alcoholic brother and Ken Howard as the suitor.

[quote]Taylor also played the bride of Peter Finch's character in Elephant Walk and falls for Fernando Lamas as a gangster in The Girl Who Had Everything. Both Finch and Lamas were 16 years Taylor's senior.

R154, Vivien Leigh was the original bride in Elephant Walk but had to drop out after they started filming.

[quote]One night of January 1953, she decided to wake-up Peter Finch and his wife and propose the Australian actor to share the screen with her in a film called Elephant Walk that they would shoot in Ceylon. In it, she would be a young British bride brought to a big mansion in India by her new millionaire husband, owner of a tea plantation. The latter neglects his wife and she becomes more and more attached to one of his friends, played by Dana Andrews.

[quote]Vivien had an ulterior motive for wanting Finch as her co-star: he was her lover. Laurence Olivier, her husband, although in the know of his misfortune, felt it would be good for Vivien’s health to be back to work in the country she was born in. Also, her problems were a lot for him to handle. She was a nymphomaniac and was dangerously close to a nervous breakdown.

[...]

[quote]Director William Dieterle had somewhat expected Leigh’s defection and had filmed several shots with Leigh unrecognizable because her face was covered with big glasses or hats or she was too far or shot from behind. These shots still appear in the film, forcing Taylor to have a matching wardrobe to that of Leigh. Hence, the journey to Ceylon with the stars had been all for nothing as most of the exterior shots kept in the film could have been made with any stand-in.

I love The Philadelphia Story but have never been able to endure more than a few minutes at a time of Holiday and I first saw it in 1969 on rental from Films Inc. in a pristine print. So long, so talky, so much rich white people problems. I last saw it a night or two ago on Movies! TV and again couldn't get past 15 minutes at a time.

R96, Mayer couldn’t afford casting Gable and Tracy to the New York office. The film wasn’t budgeted for their salaries. Mayer was head of production but New York controlled financing.,

But Mayer was indeed very savvy in offering her Grant, Stewart and Cukor to direct. No way she was going to turn that deal down and it is probably a better film with that casting.

Holiday is 20 minutes shorter and is less talky than The Philadelpia Story, plus it has a poor man as the protagonist, R185. I can watch it over and over. The Philadelphia Story, not so much...

But wouldn't it have cost MGM a ton of money to cast Cary Grant, who wasn't even a contract player? I don't know how salaries then would have played out but I would think importing a star of Grant's magnitude in 1940, probably only second to Gable (and without the exchange of another studio's star), wouldn't have been any bargain.

Nevertheless, though I love Grant in the film, it's tempting to imagine Gable in his role. He would have been so different yet quite wonderful, I think. And Tracy in the Stewart role would have been a no-brainer.

I'll easily agree to disagree, r188. Holiday is a beautifully produced and directed film. Curmudgeonly old me just doesn't like it.

[quote] And Tracy in the Stewart role would have been a no-brainer.

Well, R189, I credit both Tracy and Stewart as having 'no brains' nor charm.

Oh...this is on tonight...

When did Cary Grant ever convincingly play a poor man, r188?

When he was a London busker named Archie Leach, r193.

But that's the irony, r194. Archie Leach lost all that cockney stuff when he transitioned into Cary Grant and never looked back. And it seems he fooled everybody.

[quote] When did Cary Grant ever convincingly play a poor man?

Soon after Ingrid went to film Stromboli for Rossellini someone suggested Cary Grant star as the poor man in 'Bicycle Thieves' for Vittorio De Sica.

It seemed a very weird idea but six years later Jennifer Jones went over to star in a movie for Vittorio De Sica.

Grant could do poor since it wasn't a stretch for him. He did so convincingly in Sylvia Scarlett and None But the Lonely Heart.

Cary Grant couldn't play poor because he used a clear voice as suggested by his long-time advisor Noël Coward.

Even when Grant was doing 'dumb ox' slapstick in Gunga Din' he always used clear diction.

Grant's diction is less than clear here.

^ I can't hear anything on that excerpt.

[quote] Grant could do poor since it wasn't a stretch for him. He did so convincingly in Sylvia Scarlett and None But the Lonely Heart.

He was really not very convincing in “none but the lonely heart” his accent for one thing was a really very bad imitation of cockney, which he obviously couldn’t master- it was all over the place. I was somewhat surprised he was Oscar nominated for that role. Either it was due to Ethel Barrymore giving him something to work with and making him look good in one of their final scenes or just a popularity vote.

How Archie Leach became Cary Grant...

He was very convincing in the beautiful Sylvia Scarlett. One of Cukor's best. Holiday is a joy. TPS not so much.

Archie Leach was beautiful in the 30s.

Archie would've been even more beautiful if his head were slightly less broad.

Cary looked just fine, bitches,

Archie Leach sometimes looks Italian and sometimes like that other guy with the weird name

Purdom was as good as Mario Lanza would have been in The Student Prince.

Lanza had ballooned up to a hundred pounds overweight when it was time for The Student Prince to start shooting so Purdom was thrown in at the last minute to act the part and lip synch to Lanza's pre-recorded vocals. Lanza had extreme problems controlling his weight his entire career.

R29 That is a very special joke that you have to be over 45 years old to get. Haha.

Cary's story lies within...

I don’t have time to read this thread just yet but I’ve marked it and intend to.

But this thread title is quintessential datalounge and has it all. Every box checked. So much so that it might collapse and cause a black hole so I better hurry up and read it soon.

Really I thought it was the quintessential thread for fraternity douchebros.

[quote]Archie Leach lost all that cockney stuff when he transitioned into Cary Grant and never looked back.

Archie Leach cut his own throat in "His Girl Friday."

I'm watching High Society on HBO Max and so far (20 minutes in) it's flat as a pancake. despite the lush ptoduction, there's no spakle or wit, even though the script hews close to the original.

Vista-vision and color are great, though.