What drama REALLY happened between Diana Ross and Mary Wilson at Motown 25?

Diana did her version of You Cunt Hurry Love.

We've covered this before. Diana didn't shove Mary.

It had been years since the Supremes performed together, so Mary thought there would be a dress rehearsal beforehand. Instead they had 15 minutes to go through the motions and then Diana disappeared. Everyone was looking for her and it turns out Diana decided at the spur of the moment to make a grand entrance from the back of the audience, made her way to the stage, and proceeded to sing her solo hits.

Backstage, as Mary and Cindy waited in the wings to make their entrance, Mary instructed Cindy, "When Diana steps forward, we step forward." Mary, in her red gown, was hellbent on upstaging Miss Ross, so when Mary went off script and called out to Berry Gordy to introduce him, Diana pressed down Mary's mic holding hand and muttered, "It's being taken care of." That's when Smokey Robinson came out from the wings to deflect the rising tension.

Diana absolutely shoved Mary and it's been well documented in every book on Motown. Nelson George noted that she came out "wild eyed", which is an interesting euphemism. But yes, Mary really pushed her buttons.

I don't know about shoving, but there clearly was drama between Diana and Mary that night. That was back when Diana was at her most diva--giving rather short shows, sometimes skipping encores.

D didn't fuck that gremlin all those years to NOT be the HBIC.

Did the shoving take place backstage?

Onstage. With Ross' tongue a weird color because of a cough drop.

Nothing happened with Diana and anyone backstage. She separated herself from everyone and people were said to be cheering in the dressing room when there was a Supreme catfight.

At the time I only recall hearing that Diana took a microphone from Mary's hand for some reason. I didn't hear about any shoving or anything else. I don't believe any of this can be seen on the actual broadcast.

Mary and Cindy were supposed to wear nondescript but matching black and white to complement Diana's outfit. Mary put on the red number instead. Mary was being bad.

I ain't saying nothing.

Without getting paid.

But I will say Team Mary Forever!

I didn't see anything like a shove. I'll watch again if someone can give a time in the video when the incident is supposed to have occurred and a better description of what I'm supposed to be seeing.

[quote]Diana claims this is a lie, of course.

What did Mary say?

I used to love Mary as my favorite Supreme.

When Diana left, Mary had the opportunity to rise to the top. She and her husband mismanaged the group and its turnover was high. Mary decided to peddle in drama and be the duplicitous victim. They were young women in a tough industry and all had their frailties. I wish she had evolved beyond those emotions and let her talents prevail.

That motown 25 Supremes reunion footage is edited. The complete footage has never been shown and it's a vault controlled by Berry Gordy and Suzanne DePasse.

Diana was drunk that night and forgot the words to Someday We'll Be Together. Mary took over the lead on that. AS she did so, Diana started calling people from the audience to come on stage. Mary got excited and called for Berry. That's when Diana pushed Mary's microphone down and hissed "it's been taken care of".

The push supposedly came the third time Mary and Cindy stepped forward. There was indeed little time to rehearse. Initially they were supposed to do a medley, but Diana decreed "The girls will be happy with Someday We'll Be Together". She didn't consult them and that pissed them off, especially Mary. Also at the start of rehearsal, Mary's mother was there and Diana didn't return her greeting, just gave her a dirty look and snubbed her. That made Mary angry as well. But rather than directly confront Diana for being a cunt, Mary, true to her passive agreessive ways, drank a lot champagne and looked for ways to steal the spotlight during the performance.

The whole Motown 25 Supremes reunion was a mess, with two women with a lot of unresolved issues and drama between them.

Yeah i don't see any shove or hand pushing in the vid.

The video was heavily edited, much to the disappointment of those who had read about it and were hoping to see it. At the end Diana tried Reach Out and Touch Someone's Hand and got no response. Then, Mary started singing as loud as she could to drown out Diana.

Mary and Diana never resolved their feud.

^And now the pretty one is dead.

[quote]Diana was drunk that night

This. She was a mess. Even in the parts they left in, you can see that.

She even drunkenly came out on stage and tried to upstage someone else's number.

The part where she shoved Mary was not aired. But it apparently, happened.

I don't understand Diana. After the group broke up, she went on to more fame and fortune. Why begrudge the others their moment in the sun? A short Supremes medley would've been nice.

"... Mary had the opportunity to rise to the top."

Like a turd in the punchbowl.

R19, that was during Adam Ant's pitiful Where Did Our Love Go. She deserves a pass for that because Ant was so ridiculous.

Those words she spoke were just weird. Saying everyone came back tonight without mentioning Florence did not go unnoticed and then she said that Berry never felt appreciated. And she had lipstick smeared on her teeth, which is just not something Ross would ever let slip by.

Endless shove.

i love The Supremes Sing Rodgers and Hart but otherwise have been pretty non-caring about the girl group and its drama for most of my life.

The video at op doesn't work.

Link to the shoving?

OP's link worked for me, r25, but there isn't any shoving in the link, as discussed above.

Shove me in the morning, then just walk away.

People who were there at the taping saw it happen. Maybe the are waiting for Ross to die before the footage comes out.

I wish Cindy Birdsong would release a memoir before it's too late.

Here’s Diane’s red teeth and tongue.

Most people seem to forget that Motown producers didn't even use Florence and Mary on the albums as backup singers anymore. Was it because they were unreliable or because they weren't great singers?

Mary Wilson's plane was late so she arrived late to the rehearsal to find Diana Ross rehearsing alone. Ross ran up to Mary to greet her. At this point they were getting along fine, even friendly. Mary had even attended Ross' birthday party at her home earlier that year. What ticked Ross off was that Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong were allowed on the show to present a tribute to the Motown stars who had passed, with special mention of Florence Ballard. Ross was sitting in the audience with Gordy at the time and was stunned that no one had told her beforehand that the tribute would happen. At their brief rehearsal Mary gave Cindy two instructions 1) follow her lead and step forward each time Ross did and 2) sing softly into the microphone at sound check so that their voices would be louder in the actual performance. All of this plus the response that the audience gave to Mary in the red dress threw Ross off. She forgot the lyrics to "Someday" and Mary sang a line of lead to get her back on track. Ross then shoved her back. Smokey ran out on stage to clam the divas and started inviting others onstage. Mary called out to Ross, etc. and Ross pushed her mike from her face.

R29, it all seems edited really well because it looks like a very smooth finally.

Except it looks like Diana has wonky eyes

[quote]she said that Berry never felt appreciated

I recall Berry looking back at her with a "You left, bitch" shrug.

The thing is that Diana should’ve handled her association with The Supremes better, they were and remain the most iconic females Motown ever had, you say Motown to people around the world and the first two groups the will mention is The Supremes and The Temptations. I have to say Beyoncé evidently learned from Ms Ross’ mistakes and doesn’t run from her Destiny’s Child roots.

Diana shoved Mary. It was on national television. Everyone saw it. EVERYONE talked about it for days following.

It was not a body slam. Mary was in no danger of falling. But Diana pushed her out of the way.

Diana was rumored to have been heard saying, "Bitch, don't touch my hair weave!"

Cindy won't be doing much of anything as it's rumored she's in the final stages of Alzheimers.

Too bad Diana couldn't get over being Miss Ross on this show. A post from a DL'er years back (perhaps related from another site) had Ross seeing everyone greeting each other like it was a high school reunion and she still kept a queenly distance from all of them. And when the groups started singing together acapella, she was seen bopping her head and singing along from a distance, only to stop when someone noticed her.

A very nice thing Gordy did was when Diana finished her speech, he opened his fists, relating to the famous line "Just remember what I told you the day I set you free".

In her book, Mary claims that backstage Richard Pryor told her to step on Ross's fur when she got out there and she heard a female voice then yell "kick it".

It's been a long time. But I did watch and I saw Diana do something physical to Mary but damned if I remember all the details, Your Honor.

Mary looked good in that red dress and she knew it.

It was sad to see a drunk Diana constantly trying to be the center of attention.

I don't think the shoving aired live, the show was taped right? it's in the vaults.

Where did our shove go?

I recall Ross grabbing Mary by her extensions and making her head bobble like a doll.

Then she kicked Mary in the face and vomited all over the red dress.

It was all on TV but was edited out for the video.

Lucille Ball was invited to participate but Gary wouldn't let her wear blackface.

There was grainy footage shot from the grassy knoll briefly posted on Youtube a few years ago. It proved there was at least one other shover in addition to Diane.

Shove, Child.

This is all in Ms. Ross' favor if you don't call her Diane like I do when taking about her.

talking, that is, or telling the truth

I saw Diana shoot a guy just to see him die. It was all on TV but edited out of the final video.

I saw Diana jiggle Cher's bare titty and squeal, "Raspberries!"

Is Miss Ross in stilettos there? I thought Cher was a foot taller than her.

I once saw Diana Ross in front of a Broadway theater come out of the biggest limos I ever saw with the biggest hair I ever saw! She had the vertical and horizontal contrast thing going on. She made an impact all right. She looked ok, not even the prettiest Supreme though.

A similar story happened at the Emmys that year, when Bonnie Franklin backed into Linda Lavin’s Chevette.

There’s a very brief second where you can see Mary whisper to Diana, “I got fucked by Tom Jones multiple times. Top that, bitch!”

When it first came out (I think it was live) I saw the shove. I gasped! The video above is edited. You can tell after Mary comes out. Diana turns to glare at her and Mary and Cindy exchange glances. The shove happed right before then and was cut out.

That’s why Smokey came on stage. Others weren’t supposed to join him yet but he came out early to distract from the shove.

Mary called for Barry when others started coming on stage. That’s when Diana hissed at her that it was “taken care of.”

It was one hell of a show. I bought it on video because it was so great, but the shove was cut out on the video.

There’s a really good documentary on Motown starring Barry and Smokey. Came out about a year ago. On HBO or Showtime. Barry and Smokey are still best friends. They’re cute together.

Why I'll Never Let Diane Shove My Arm

I think you mean Berry. I kept thinking of Barry Manilow for a minute.

.,.,

I'll admit it. I've never forgiven Diane for leaving the group. They were magic.

.....

I’d slurp Diana’s pussy juice

It's a shame Mary went the memoir route she did. With Diana's declining record sales, her return to Motown could have begun with a Supremes reunion album.

[quote] her return to Motown could have begun with a Supremes reunion album.

That would have never happened. Mary felt that as an original Supreme, and technically part of the group before Diane joined, she should be paid the same as Diana. That’s why the 90s reunion failed, because Mary wouldn’t accept their lowball offer.

PLUS, Mary was really pissed off when she found out how Motown screwed them by holding back royalties. I’m surprised she did the Motown 25 show.

Motown was always cheap. Even after their heyday, no one wanted to record there because they paid so poorly. I'm sure they made a mint on the 25th anniversary and that was not passed down to the artists

I'll repeat it:

Everything was fine with the group until Diane got the Berry cock. And her future as a star was cemented the moment she said,

[quote]Oh, Berry! It's too big!

[quote]Aretha, demanding payment before going on stage

Did you know that Aretha was really a dress size 4? That which everyone thought was fat was really cash taped to her body. Gurl banked at the Bank of Bra.

[Quote] And her future as a star was cemented the moment she said "Oh, Berry! It's too big!"

If only.

R64, Mary claimed she was promised a solo spot in order to secure her appearance. Then she showed up to the taping and they canceled the solo spot, of course.

That's not very believable.

[Quote]Then she showed up to the taping and they canceled the solo spot, of course.

Of course, indeed.

I believe the shove happened, because it was in so many of the contemporaneous press accounts written by the reporters who were there that evening.

Suzanne DePasse, who was basically in charge of putting the whole special together, denied that it happened, because a) she was close friends with Diana (even though they started out as bitter enemies in the late 60's) and hated Mary Wilson, and b) the debacle made her look bad as a producer.

It also seems to have been the catalyst that led to Mary finally break ranks and write her book.

It's kind of sad, but funny at the same time.

How long had it been since Diana gave Mary money?

Mary didn't get caught up in the moment. She was intentionally trying to start shit that evening and succeeded.

Diana was drunk because she didn't want to be there. She knew that many of the Motown acts harbored a lot of resentment towards her. She only went because of Berry.

Suzanne and Smokey had to do A LOT of convincing to get people on board to do this show. Many harbored bad feelings towards Berry and others just wanted to move on. Suzanne joked that she did so much begging that her knees were black and blue. And some artists, like Gladys Knight and the Pips, still refused.

Still for all of its flaws, it's the best Motown reunion show out of the several they did. The four big Motown stars: Diana, Marvin, Smokey and Stevie on stage together. Michael in the middle of his Thriller global dominance. The only Supremes reunion. And the second to last TV appearance of Marvin Gaye. By the time of the next Motown special, Marvin would be gone.

[Quote]How long had it been since Diana gave Mary money?

What?! I let the bitch keep all of the gowns!

Why wasn’t Pippin invited to the Motown Reunion? Motown produced our cast album.

Berry packed up and moved Motown headquarters to LA so that he could be a movie mogul and make Diana a bona fide movie star. The Motown acts he left behind in Detroit felt neglected and abandoned. Those who saw the writing on the wall early on left and signed with other labels (The Spinners, Gladys and her Pips, Mary Wells, Martha Reeves, etc.). By the time of the anniversary show, a lot of those acts still were pissed at Berry and resented Diana.

You Can’t Hurry Shove

I need video proof

Diana should have handled things the way Michael Jackson did. Michael was way beyond the days of his brothers act, but did a great medley of all their old hits before he did his "Billie Jean" showstopper. Diana should have done a medley of Supremes songs, then a big solo number afterwards.

What was Diana's latest hit at that time? She should have done "Endless Love" with Lionel Richie.

R80, the Supremes were supposed to do a medley of "Someday We'll Be Together", "Baby Love" and "Stop! In the Name of Love", but it was abbreviated to just "Someday We'll Be Together" as the close out song. Diana began with her hit "Ain't No Mountain High Enough."

They should have let Mary reprise her quaaluded "Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You."

Motown 25 was never broadcast live. It was taped and the footage edited for the broadcast.

Mary and Cindy were slated to deliver a tribute to the writers and producers of Motown. They did the script as written, then Mary went off script to pay tribute to some members of the Motown family who were no longer alive by then such as Pops Gordy, Paul Williams of the Temptations and Flo Ballard. That was cut. Oddly enough, the special didn't have an In Memorium segment so while on one hand it was unprofesssional of Mary to go off script, on the other, it was a classy, thoughtful gesture.

As for the use of the Andantes on Supremes recordings in place of Mary/Flo or Mary/Cindy, it wasn't because they couldn't sing or do the job. It was because the Andantes were trained vocalists who could nail their takes in the studio in one take, By the late 60s the Motown studio was an assembly line and they had to put out the music. There wasn't much time for writers and producers to teach the lead parts and the background parts to the group members. The Andantes also filled in for the Vandellas and The Marvelettes and the Velvelettes during this period. I'm not crazy about this, but that's the way it was.

Well, Mary made the mistake of allowing that to happen. She went on vacation rather than recording "Love Child," for instance. I expect the increasingly frosty relationship with Diana also influenced not using them on recordings. If Diana flew back to record, Mary was out of her hair for a time.

Love Child wasn't the first Supremes recording without Mary. For instance the Christmas album is pretty much Diana Ross and the Andantes. In terms of singles, Forever Came Today didn't have Mary and Flo, and Some Things You Never get used to didn't have Mary and Cindy.

Yes but my point is that Mary rolled over. Other acts didn't. Gladys Knight & the Pips aren't awash in Andantes.

The Motown 25 reunion was a culmination of rising tensions between Diana and Mary. They seemed to have a frosty friendship when Diana left the Supremes.

There was something about the Supremes that Diana seems to run away from. Maybe she sees herself only as a solo singer or she hated having to be in a group, but she's always paid her Supreme years short attention in her concerts, always condensing the Supremes songs into a five-minute medley.

Diana was a mess that night. As others have said, she was at the height of her diva/bitch years. She had left Motown two years earlier in a massive deal with RCA and she had just had a string of solo hits with Upside Down, I'm Coming Out, It's My Turn, Why Do Fools Fall in Love, Mirror Mirror and Muscles. She probably felt she was "above" the Supremes reunion but agreed to it since it was the 25th anniversary.

Mary was definitely trying to start shit and she knew by wearing the red dress and by trying to make more of a presence during the Supremes reunion, it was going to ruffle "Diane's" feathers.

The Motown 25 special was kind of the beginning of the decline in Diana's solo career. Although she had come off a run of hits and signed with a new label, she was also approaching 40 at this time. This was the same year Madonna and Cyndi Lauper made a huge impact; Tina Turner was starting her massive comeback and Whitney Houston was around the corner. Diana's years at RCA were not as successful as her time at Motown and each album seemed to do worse than the previous (although 1984's Swept Away would have Ross' last top 10 hit, Missing You).

There was a massive box set a few years ago of the Motown 25th anniversary. Sadly, there was no new footage or unused footage.

Diana only had herself to blame for that. She lined her pockets by producing more of her RCA output than she should have.

Ross' reputation was so well known at that time: Tempermental and unprofessional diva. The press really loved that Mary got such a reaction from her and she revealed a side of her in public that was so well hidden before by PR. It was heavily covered and almost every story was about how badly Diana behaved. No one had to write a story about her because she wrote it herself.

When the Return to Love tour bombed, the press also gleefully reported about it. Diana definitely was treated unfairly but she has herself to blame by believing her own publicity and also acting so badly.

In the end, people have started to come around because she's still alive but I think the strongest argument for her is that she has several children, none of whom have had a trace of trouble. And when she met with MJ's kids after his death when he nominated her second in line for his kids, I thought he did know what he was doing.

I think Diana has mellowed a lot in the last decade or so. Being arrested for DUI and going to prison probably humbled her a bit and she seems to be enjoying her years semi-retired (although she still tours and is finally releasing a new album).

It's a shame though that she and Mary couldn't have patched things up. But it was never an easy road between them.

I don't think they ever could have patched things up. Mary admitted that she was more entertainer than singer. But I don't think she understood or would admit that Diana could not return the era of equal pay for unequal work.

Ross' short bump and grind with Adam Ant was sexy as hell, though still very classy - interesting. Starts about 01:30

Diana's career suffered a lot in the '80s -- the Motown 25 special, the rumours of being a bitch, taking time off to have kids with her second husband, flop albums, and then, of course, two books that trashed her.

She seemed to rebound in the '90s. I think it helped when she appeared on Oprah's show. Oprah reminded people of the influence and impact Ross had, in addition to making people remember how much they loved the Supremes and her solo music. Also, Ross's music was better during this period. I love Take Me Higher and Every Day is a New Day.

She didn't really rebound in the 1990s, not in the US, at any rate.

How did she rebound in the 90’s? Her albums in the 90’s did worse than the ones in the 80’s.

I think the new album will be her highest charting album in decades. Dolly and Cher all had their highest charting albums later in their careers in the last 10 years, I think Diana will do the same.

Sorry, I meant to say rebounded musically. I thought her '90s stuff was a lot better than her RCA material.

Random but the funny thing is Kelly Rowland not only looks like Mary Wilson but had a similar relationship with Beyonce. She made the song “Dirty Laundry” where she blames everyone else on turning her against Beyonce but I know she has that Mary Wilson complex and probably still does.

[quote{R12 I didn't see anything like a shove.

The video was edited for broadcast. It’s the people present who saw the shoving match.

The bullying Diane tried to pull rank and Mary was having NONE of it.

[quote] Endless Shove

[quote] You Can’t Hurry Shove

[quote]Shove me in the morning, then just walk away.

Shove Child

r100 meet r46.

[quote]R80 When the Return to Love tour bombed, the press also gleefully reported about it. Diana definitely was treated unfairly

To be fair, she’s the one who nixed calling it The Return to Shove tour.

Shove Hangover

[quote][R100] meet [R46].

SHOVE IT, R101!

You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Shoves You:

Reflections of the shove you gave to me

Reflections of the fame you stole from me

Unfortunately, no wigs were snatched on that infamous night. Maybe it’s too difficult to snatch a weave?

Reflections of the way shoves used to be....Reflections of the shove you took from me

Some day we'll shove together...

But alas, it was never to be

You can't hurry shoves no you just have to wait you gotta shove give it time no matter how long it takes

Shove is here, and now you’re gone.

One day you're up, then you turn around

You feel Diane’s shove and you’re tumbling down

It happened to me, and it can happen to you

Keep fallin in and out of shove....in search for what I'm dreamin of...I long to find a shove I'm sure about...that certain kind of shove that removes all doubt

Well Like Betty White the best revenge is a LONG and happy life with fans still coming to your concerts in your 70s !!!!

^... and the crowd screamed, "Shove it! Shove it! Shove it!"

Miss Ross is poised to make a HUGE comeback... She just needs a little shove

Remember the infamous night at Carnegie Hall when Helen Lawson shoved Judy Garland AND snatched her wig?

My shove is empty without you babe....and as I shove my way alone I find it hard for me to shove some more....I need to shove I have no tender touch...I need to shove my dear I miss so much

[quote] I think Diana has mellowed a lot in the last decade or so. Being arrested for DUI and going to prison probably humbled her a bit

Going to prison can really change celebrities sometimes for the better.

in her new memoir, Katie Couric said Martha Stewart had zero sense of humor about herself until she went to prison.

Diana tweeted about being treated like royalty at an event and like shit later on at the airport.

Okay, last one...

I'm gonna make ya shove me ooooo yes I will, yes I will

[quote]r82 The Supremes were supposed to do a medley of "Someday We'll Be Together", "Baby Love" and "Stop! In the Name of Love", but it was abbreviated to

“Stop! In the Name of SHOVE”

Shove is like an itching in my heart, tearing me apart

[quote] Diana tweeted about being treated like royalty at an event and like shit later on at the airport.

She doesn't get the way the universe works, does she?

Posters are hereby reminded to speak of Miss Ross as [italic]Miss Ross.

The Grammys are popularity contests as much as anything. Ross has always been loathed in the industry and considering how many despicable people are in that business, that's a statement. If she were up against Yoko Ono for a Grammy, Ono would win.

From what I understand, the truth is only handed down verbally, but it started the night before the show when a late night heart to heart between the two women resulted in a closeness they hadn’t shared in decades. While sharing a bed together, Mary grew frisky and one horribly misguided “Dutch oven” later, Diane flew into a rage that sealed the rift that would last past Motown 25 through to the end of Mary Wilson’s last gas p.

As a Supreme.

[quote] I think the new album will be her highest charting album in decades. Dolly and Cher all had their highest charting albums later in their careers in the last 10 years, I think Diana will do the same.

The chart positions of today really can't be compared to those of yesteryear. Any legacy artist with a decent-sized fan base, if they play their cards right and time the release properly, can have a #1 album, or the highest-charting album of their career, or whatever. These late-career albums have are almost exclusively bought by the diehards, produce no hits, make no impact on the wider culture whatsoever, and sink like stones after the first week. But hey, at least they can brag that it went to #1, and therefore they are still "relevant".

Ross hasn't had an original recording since 2006 so the chances that it will be the highest charting in decades seem good.

I think it was in Mary's second book that she wrote that she had dinner with Diana and some other people around the time Swept Away came out. But there was absolutely no mention of the Motown 25 incident.

Oh, was Mary *having* dinner with us? I thought she was serving it.

If Mary and Diana didn’t like each other, why did they keep having dinner and attending parties together?

I submit to you DL sleuths that the shove and the red dress were all *staged* because the reunion show itself was boring and they needed some extra PR.

Was Diane always a drunk? Or did that start after her movie career tanked?

It is always amusing how many people repeat rumor like it is scripture. So much of what has been written about Motown 25 is BS. BTW the performances were sequenced differently in the live performance than they were in the broadcast show. The high point of the live performance was Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean". On TV that performance was in the middle of the program.

The audience went wild after Michael's performance. Everyone knew that they had just witnessed show business history.

Then they ran a Diana Ross montage, followed by the opening chords of "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". Miss Ross entered from the rear of the auditorium to a tepid response. The applause was enhanced in the tv broadcast and video. She performed and no one cared. People were still breathless from the Jackson performance.

That's when they ran the montage of the Supremes. Diana introduced Cindy Birdsong. Then she introduced Mary Wilson. Wilson held back and then entered looking fabulous in her red dress. That set everything in motion.

No one upstages Miss Ross. Not Michael Jackson and certainly not Mary Wilson....reminding everyone that she was the beauty of the Supremes.

Other than Dreamgirls, has there ever been a movie about three girls from the projects who found success and how they handled their lives? I’d be interested in seeing something like this from the perspective of how lives change and how people change in their relationships.

Dreamgirls had a bit too much going on in its storyline to focus on each of the women’s life trajectory.

@r134, "Diane"?

Oh, you're thinking of Princess Diane who died in a car crash, this is Diane Ross the formerly fabulous Supreme

I was going to appear in "The Color Purple" as "Shove Avery.." But when they renamed the character "Shug," I dropped out.

Sparkle, r136...Sparkle!

She is my favorite colored singer !!! I used to watch her sing with those other two colored girls Florence Henderson and Mary Steamvirgin on the Ed Sullivan Show !!!

^ "... And the colored girls go "Doo do doo do doo do do doo..."

With all these worn-out "shove" jokes, people are forgetting how awful Diana Ross sounded when she sang her solo.

^ She was drunk and looked and sounded like it. I thought we established that... Now shove off

I can't help it, sorry

She really was awful that night. Diana's ego really grew in the early '80s. I think moving to RCA and opening her own business just made her an even bigger bitch. Say what you will about "Call Her Miss Ross" but that book is meticulously researched. It was hilarious reading all the horror stories of Diana's business and how she treated her employees.

Diana was so polished and so professional when she was with Motown. But her music and performing suffered in the '80s when she started calling the shots and moved to RCA. Even her 1983 concert in Central Park was marred by how self-indulgent her performance was.

She looked and sounded like a drunken mess at Motown 25 when, if anything, she should have had her shit together. Berry was a taskmaster and expected his Motown performers to be polished and on their mark (and on key). And Diana was none of those that night. Perhaps she was nervous because she knew that room full of Motown stars past and present hated her, that they knew she fucked Berry and had his child and they resented how he put her before them. She was trying to remind everyone she was the Queen of Motown that night but instead seemed to reveal some insecurities.

[quote]R136 Other than Dreamgirls, has there ever been a movie about three girls from the projects who found success and how they handled their lives?

[quote]R139 Sparkle

Lonette McKee from “Sparkle” is also fabulous singing in “The Cotton Club” (1984). Her career really shows the limited opportunities for actresses of color. I mean, what else was she possibly supposed to bring to the game??

Poor Diana. Nobody told her that you can’t run and sing at the same time. And dropping that fur on the stage looked incredibly tacky. She should have had a gorgeous male model walk on and remove it from her shoulders.

Diana never realized that her voice was thin and that it was enhanced on record. Trying to do the beginning of “Ain’t No Mountain” demonstrated how small her voice was. You can barely hear the beginning.

Try out your best Norwegian accent

"And now Arne has gone off and married the big, black mama from the United States."

- Call Her Miss Ross

You're very wrong about that, R146. It's quite the reverse. Her voice is always restrained on recordings, and much fuller live. During the Motown 25 taping, she had a stomach flu. She was sick.

[quote]R143 She was drunk and looked and sounded like it. I thought we established that... Now shove off

I think she had a sore throat that night, as well. That’s why her mouth is stained… from shoving cough drops in it.

She shoved me. Then I said,

Lonette McKee should have been a huge star. Gorgeous, a voice for days and she could act. She was deserving of supporting nominations for both Sparkle and The Cotton Club (especially if Jennifer Hudson, who can't act for shit and has no idea what she's singing) can win one. McKee's lack of a career boggles me.

My! Endless shooooove

"And now Arne has gone off and married the big, black mama from the United States."

She couldn't resist his big Norwegian ship, "Shove it, Arne, shove it"

If only Flo could have been there…. singing “Take This Job and Shove It”

[quote] During the Motown 25 taping, she had a stomach flu. She was sick.

Whatever the reason, she should not have attempted the opening notes of that song, or lip synced them or asked the producers of the show to sweeten them before the show was released to the public.

Diana Ross has been portrayed to the public as a singing goddess diva (in a good way) yet she seems to not understand the basics of continuing that persona.

Reach Out and Shove That Bitch's Ass

[italic]She shoved me / She put her hand near mine / And then she shoved me - -

Running all over that stage....

Get it together, people! Seriously, everyone is over reacting about something that really, when all is said and done, only amounted to a Baby Shove… oh, Baby Shove…

"she had a stomach flu"

That's what my father used to call his hangovers. He had the "flu" every Sunday morning

Shove is Here and Now You're Gone, Mary

[quote]"she had a stomach flu"

She had the cocktail flu.

And people wonder why I left this shitshow!

These "shove" instead of "love" jokes just never, never get old.

I shurv them!!

Okay... I read up to the 91st post and had to stop to post this comment.

As some have already posted, it was indeed Mary that started the whole chaos. Mary's career had gone nowhere, wasn't going anywhere, and didn't go nowhere. She viewed this as her big chance to make a BIG mark! It is very true that Ross didn't want to attend the performance and mingle among the peasants. She was far, FAR, above them at that time. But, it is also true that many performers did not want to attend because they were screwed by Motown. In going back to Ross, many of the Motown performers were simply jealous. They were jealous of Ross's success and the money that she was making. Ross was receiving nothing but glowing press at that time and of course her finances were written about. Keep in mind that most of the Motown artists were relatively financially poor (ie Mary Wells) given their contributions to powerhouse Motown.

Mary opened her book with the shove and then it piled on from there. Something did happen but it was never shown. However, you can see something is awry when Smokey Robinson walks out on stage. You see it on his face. Later on in life Mary never talks about the shove. What she says is that Ross moved her microphone away from her mouth and told her that it had been taken care of. Was Ross tipsy that night? Possibly. She knew she was walking in the lion's den and probably needed a little something to steady her nerves. But, make no mistake she was there to solidify her crown as QUEEN, if not that, but the star who really built Motown. Unlike, what someone else posted above, when the name Motown is mentioned most people immediately think of Diana Ross and Berry Gordy. The others fall in line thereafter. As far as Ross is concerned this is the way that it should be.

Well, she's right. The great success of Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder was slower to come.

If a movie is made of Mary's life, they have to include the TV appearance where she lipsynced to Diana's vocals. I think it was in South America or Europe. It's on YouTube.

[quote]when the name Motown is mentioned most people immediately think of Diana Ross and Berry Gordy.

I don't agree.

They would think of the Supremes and the Temptations.

I agree Enough with the puns. Stop! In the Name of Shove!

That's you, Blanche (R171). In not taking anything away from the Supremes (because they were a powerhouse that put Motown soundly on the map) but when most people think of the Supremes they think of Diana Ross... and then the others thereafter. As far as Ross is concerned this is how it should be

"Okay... I read up to the 91st post and had to stop to post this comment. "

Oh, you really should read the rest, that's just when shoving match started

[quote] But, make no mistake she was there to solidify her crown as QUEEN, if not that, but the star who really built Motown.

But do you understand how other artists felt?

Motown was *the* purveyor of black music in the 1960s. And who does Berry push as the face of the industry? A bobble-headed scarecrow with a jack-o-lantern mouth who sings like a white girl and obviously got her fame by encouraging Berry’s lust because her voice is as thin as a reed.

I bet you have no smoke for Janet Jackson, though...

I have since, R174. The thread pretty much deteriorates into gibberish. Look... I find it funny that after all of these decades that there are people that are so passionate about this issue and their Supremes. What is, is. Ross's career isn't because she slept with Berry Gordy. (it could have been a steeping stone for sure) but she has had and is having a decades long career. She must have some helluva pussy if you believe that is what has sustained her career for so long.

The Supremes weren't even first choice for "Where Did Our Love Go?" If anything, Berry fucked Diana to strengthen HIS position.

[quote]But do you understand how other artists felt?

Of course I do! But, keep in mind that just as Ross has an ego so do they. Look... Ross had/has major crossover appeal. While many of the Motown performers are much better singers than Ross the vast majority of them just don't have that "it" factor. Diana Ross is an entertainer and whatever it is that she does literally mesmerizes audiences. She has "it". What's the saying? "Everybody wants to be Diana Ross. The business/marketing model for many later "girl groups" is that of the Supremes and then the... breakout Diana Ross star. Hello Beyonce.

Ross opened doors for all of them, including the two singing behind her. That's a fact.

[quote]who sings like a white girl and obviously got her fame by encouraging Berry’s lust because her voice is as thin as a reed.

Ross was a very popular singer, so riding Gordy's dick wasn't the only secret to her success. Her singing like a white girl (which I would dispute) enhanced the cross-over appeal that Barry was looking for.

What was the timing of her affair with Gordy? Was it after or before the "No-Hit Supremes" had a hit?

"Singing like a white girl" is some bullshit. People really fell for the Dreamgirls myth.

[quote]Motown was *the* purveyor of black music in the 1960s.

But, that's the exact label that Berry Gordy DID NOT want! Thus, Motown was pushed as the sound of young America. Unfortunately, many Motown artists missed the memo and didn't get on board with that.

[quoter] r177 What is, is. Ross's career isn't because she slept with Berry Gordy. (it could have been a steeping stone for sure)

Steeping stones can chip your mug.

Remove when tea has cooled.

Who didn't get the memo? They were all aimed at Vegas at some point.

Watching the edited video, you have to wonder, Where Did Our Shove Go?

"She must have some helluva pussy if you believe that is what has sustained her career for so long. "

It opened a lot of doors for her, that's for sure. Besides Barry Gordy that snatch snatched a billionaire shipping tycoon as well

[quote] Watching the edited video, you have to wonder, Where Did Our Shove Go?

It's being kept in a vault under my watchful eye and none of you eldergays will be getting your hands on it!!

And when I (de) pass, I will ensure it's kept away forever!!!

Ross and Gordy became sexually intimate in April of 1965. They were gigging in Paris, and stayed behind when the others flew home to Detroit. During their first sexual encounter, Gordy suffered from performance anxiety and was not able to rise to the occasion. Ross suggested there and then that they should jyst be friends. He tried again the following night with success, and the rest is history. By this time, Ross had previously scored four Billboard number 1 hits.

^ Um, when did the Supremes become Diana Ross and the Supremes? When did Miss Ross become Miss Boss?

I put my name on the ceiling above

Cause it was built to shooooooove It was built to shoooove

It’s my house and I shove here

[quote] By this time, Ross had previously scored four Billboard number 1 hits.

All by herself? How heroic.

What white girl sang like Diana?

I don’t hear a white girl when I hear Diana, especially that era when white pop girls sang like 10 year olds.

Singers like Lesley Gore and Brenda Lee sang like shit. Or they sounded like Broadway singers like Petula.

Diana had a pretty and spirited voice that was delicate but lovely.

[quote]What white girl sang like Diana?

Dusty Springfield.

The group was rechristened Diana Ross and the Supremes after the release if the last song Ballard recrded, The Happening, in late March 1967. Miss Ross became Miss Boss in 1981, having been dubbed as such by Big Bird right at the beginning of this clip from that time.

Diana did sound white, not compared to Doris Day, but compared to many of the other Motown singers.

It contributed to her cross-over appeal.

The Supremes even took elocution lessons to sound more white when speaking.

[quote] when the name Motown is mentioned most people immediately think of Diana Ross and Berry Gordy.

I don't think that's any longer the case. Most of the public at large has no idea what Motown was, and the word has just become a generic catch-all for any and all R&B from the 60's and early 70's.

People throw around the word "Motown" these days when they're talking about Aretha Franklin, the O'Jays, Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, etc.

Nowadays, most people don't know and don't care what "Motown" means.

Disagree. Brenda Lee could be heard without a mic. She's one of the best popular singers, especially her interpretive skills.

What is sounding white? I can't imagine Nancy Sinatra delivering "And there ain't nothing I can do about it" like Diana.

Miss Boss, I mean Ross, was part of a great ensemble she really wasn't all that better then the others, but she wiggled, wormed and fucked her way to being top dog and destroyed a great group in the process. She was her own Yoko Ono

You must know little Broadway if you think Petula Clark sounds Broadway in style. Her bell like sound (without being a soprano) without heavy vibrato is not Broadway. Jackie Trent, now there's someone with a Broadway sound.

[quote]Nowadays, most people don't know and don't care what "Motown" means.

When I moved to England, I noticed that Motown songs were released on the "Tamla" label. I asked a friend why that was and he told me that "Mo" was slang for homosexual, so "Mo-town" sent a different message in England.

[quote]Miss Boss, I mean Ross, was part of a great ensemble she really wasn't all that better then the others, but she wiggled, wormed and fucked her way to being top dog and destroyed a great group in the process. She was her own Yoko Ono

This would make sense if Ross hadn't had a successful solo career after the Supremes. But she did.

And Yoko Ono would be a nobody without glomming onto John Lennon.

False, R200! Neither Supreme ever recorded on Ross' recordings for the final two years of the acts time together, though they still retained royalty rights. Ross was the very key to the success of the act. Without her, it never would have been.

[Quote] she really wasn't all that better then the others

She was leagues better. Martha Reeves could never deliver a ballad like Ross. Gladys Knight is the only Motown female of equal talent to Ross. Tammi Terrell had charisma out the wazoo and she may have been a contender if her health hadn't taken her to an early death. Mary Wells excelled at her niche but she never grew beyond it. Brenda Holloway and Kim Weston got mired in indifferent material and they lacked Ross' force of personality.

[quote]Who didn't get the memo? They were all aimed at Vegas at some point.

Only after the Supremes opened the door. We're in different times now but at that time most of Motown's acts were (and in reality) too ghet... urban for polite society. You can just look at Martha Reeves and those Vandella gals and tell that they liked to take a shot and if they have two more shots they're going to want to take off their panties and get fucked real good. Now... the reality could be far from that. However, that was an image they exuded. But, the Supremes... these were "good" girls. They were cultured and sophisticated. They were like flowers that wafted and moved ever so gently in the wind. They gave an image of the epitome of femininity. The light snap of their fingers. Their little steps. the gentle movement of their arms and wrists. These were girls that you could bring home to momma! Of course this could be the farthest from reality--as that slut... uh, Mary wrote about later. But, the packaging of the Supremes was truly amazing! Lessons from Maxine Powell, choreography from Cholly Atlins, the songs, and the girls themselves, just all came into line.

[Quote] Only after the Supremes opened the door.

Not quite true. Look at how they tried to turn Marvin Gaye into Nat King Cole at the beginning. The Supremes had nothing to do with that. It was market driven. Supper club = $$$$$$.

[Quote] You can just look at Martha Reeves and those Vandella gals and tell that they liked to take a shot and if they have two more shots they're going to want to take off their panties and get fucked real good.

Isn't Martha more inclined towards women?

Brenda Lee sounds like SHIT.

Also, Dusty does not sound like Diana Ross GTFO. Dusty had a very soulful voice for a white woman. If anything I would have assumed people thought “I Only Want To Be With You” was a black woman. Maybe “Spooky” she sounds like Diana but that’s it.

And, you're RIGHT, R07. I meant to write that but I forgot. Marvin Gaye was probably the only other act that came close to or had the same exact appeal of the Supremes and Diana Ross.

It's funny to me that the only white (i.e. non-Motown) performers at Motown 25 were Adam Ant and Linda Ronstadt. I know Ronstadt had had hits with Ooh Baby Baby and Tracks of my Tears, but by mid-'83 her ignorance about Apartheid was well-known and she had moved on to Broadway and standards. She and Smokey sounded good together, but her hair and make-up seem out of place.

[quote]Look at how they tried to turn Marvin Gaye into Nat King Cole at the beginning.

Marvin wanted to be a Nat King Cole/Sinatra entertainer.

Diana Ross was Motown's Holy Grail. She - yes, SHE - paved the way for the rest of the acts. First almost used her as a secret weapon. She was the first to appear on all the very important television show, and concert venues, leaving great opportunity for the others to gather in her wake! Berry First while outlining his master plan to his executives: "Gentlemen, this is where Motown is going, and Diana Ross is going to take us there!"

[quote]Dusty does not sound like Diana Ross GTFO.

I didn't mean that Dusty is a Diana Ross impersonator, just that she doesn't sound white.

[quote]but by mid-'83 her ignorance about Apartheid was well-known and she had moved on to Broadway and standards.

She didn't perform at Sun City until the summer.

And she apologized for that long ago.

All this "sounds white" business is ignorant. Leontyne Price sang opera. She did not sound "white."

[quote]Marvin wanted to be a Nat King Cole/Sinatra entertainer.

I thought that is how Berry envisioned him? It was working too. Marvin wasn't so "out there" as Jackie Wilson, he was very cute, and had that cultured and sophisticated look. Marvin went along with it for awhile but I thought that he felt it wasn't "him" and that he had to find his true direction?

More like Marvin was paranoid about coming across as gay/soft...

R199 I don’t know how to describe it but it’s however you can tell the difference between a black female singer and a white female singer.

You know the Petula Clark is white when you hear “Downtown” and you know “Just One Look” by Doris Troy is a black woman. I love both songs.

216 Your point is confusing cause no one says black people cant sing opera?

I understand what “white sound” is. It’s usually a nice way for calling something soulless.

Jackie DeShannon did her best Diana on "Are You Ready For This?" She smartly channeled a Diana vibe rather than try to do an impression of Ross' voice. If only Aretha took a similar approach in her decidedly not hilarious impersonations medley

R214 Oh. Yeah Dusty doesn’t sound white.

I think the best white female singers of that era were country.

Tina Turner told Oprah she hated her voice because hers wasn’t pretty like Diana’s.

[quote]All this "sounds white" business is ignorant. Leontyne Price sang opera. She did not sound "white."

Don't bother even getting caught up in it, R220. You're conversing with someone who LOOOOOVES that Black bitch that kicks her heels off, SCREAMS every lyric, and rolls all over the stage floor. Now, that's "sangin'" to them! No one even really knows who the Black bitch is except Black folk, the gays, all within the continental USA.

And as far as Diana sounding “white”, she’s closer to Billie Holiday than a white woman.

R221 Even the rhythm section is almost a note-for-note rip-off of HDH.

[quote]she’s closer to Billie Holiday than a white woman.

That's an amusing statement, as she sounded NOTHING like Billie Holiday while PLAYING Billie Holiday.

@r224, Yes, never argue with a Britney, Madonna or now Miss Boss stan.

[quote]More like Marvin was paranoid about coming across as gay/soft...

OH! Marvin, Marvin, MARVIN!!!!

YASSSS!!!

R224 Oh here we go.

Yeah Patti can sing while most white bitches break in half at a B4.

[quote] More like Marvin was paranoid about coming across as gay/soft...

Well, with the last name Gaye…

R227 They don’t sound the same but if you believe R224, black women are not just screamers and Sanger’s. They both had a distinct subtlety to their voices. Certainly wouldn’t say Billie sounded white.

Weren’t a lot of black singers originally “cleaned up” for pop? I think Jackie Wilson and Aretha were both forced to make white appealing records before labels said fuck it and let them be.

That happened with Dolly too though.

R215 she never apologized because she still doesn't think she did anything wrong, as the recent documentary about her life makes clear: she still believes the UN Cultural Boycott was illegitimate and that nobody should tell her where she can or cannot go. Had she apologized in 1985 like everyone else who broke the boycott (Cher, Goldie Hawn, Millie Jackson, Tina Turner, Dolly Parton, Liza Minnelli, et. al.), then it wouldn't have dogged her.

[Quote] Even the rhythm section is almost a note-for-note rip-off of HDH.

Yes. It was cancelled as a single, probably because they suspected Motown would sue, a la "One, Two, Three" (Len Barry).

Jackie Wilson (and Etta James) had whitebread backing vocalists on their records. They didn't really alter their singing style hugely. Sam Cooke is a better example. Compare his Copa show to his Harlem Square club show.

Diana wasn't subtle at the beginning. She was a bit of a mess, so nasal. But she improved in leaps and bounds. Mary and Florence (and Cindy) did not.

One little known fact is that Linda Ronstadt kicked Smokey in the nuts onstage, and hissed "maybe this'll help you hit those high notes, motherfucker!!!"

It was edited out of the broadcast, unfortunately.

That's the reason Smokey only showed up for the "We Are the World" session when he found out she wasn't going to be there.

Smokey was dreadful when he duetted with George Michael. I think it was one of those Night at the Apollo show.

Miss Dionne Warwick was another who sounded white. Just take a listen to this and you’ll agree.

Florence was quoted as saying (regarding the incident)

[quote]“Diane always liked to be the center of attraction,” she claimed. “If you happened to be in her way while she was going toward the center, that was your fault.”

[quote]black women are not just screamers and Sanger’s

Of course they're not! Nancy Wilson, Dionne Warwick, Barbara McNair, and so many others, are (were) singers. But, they never had the many pop hits that Ross had that would make them well, well, known as she. Many of them were pigeon-holed into one type of musical sector. IMHO, Nancy Wilson never achieved the fame that was due her. But, she actually preferred it that way. Other things in her life were of greater importance. So many people have done renditions of "I Can't Make You Love Me" (the songwriters made a KILLING off of this song) but Miss Wilson's rendition is my absolute second favorite (not far from my favorite by Bonnie Raitt) You can see the storytelling and just feel the emotions!

"I'm just so tired of trying..."

Nancy Wilson was rather idiosyncratic. I can't imagine her ever having a catalogue of hits. Hitmakers tend to sing it straight (or have their backing singers do so).

[Quote] Florence was quoted as saying (regarding the incident)

What incident?

r244

The one where the hospital clerk mistyped Diane into Diana Ross's birth certificate.

It had now been nearly five hours since the taping of Motown’s twenty-fifth-anniversary special, “Motown 25,” began. At the rate things were going, I could see this was going to last until midnight, but I didn’t mind. I was happy to be back among my friends: the Four Tops, the Temptations, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson—people I’d worked with for years at Motown. I was also proud, knowing that within just moments, I would be standing onstage with my friends Diane Ross and Cindy Birdsong for our first reunion in over thirteen years. I just tried to relish every second. Next on the show were DeBarge, High Inergy, and a clip of Rick James, followed by Smokey Robinson and Linda Ronstadt’s duets on “Ooo Baby Baby” and “The Tracks of My Tears.” The segment ended on two lighter notes—a film of Motown staffers, many of whom had been with the company from the start, singing the company song Smokey wrote years ago (with lines like, “We’re a swinging company . . .”) and Richard Pryor’s comic medieval fable about the young warrior Berry’s quest for gold records in the kingdom of Hitsville. We were “three fair maidens from the Projects of Brewster.” How far from that I was now, but, thinking minutes ahead to the reunion, I knew that I was going home.

Adam Ant started singing his version of the Supremes’ first number-one hit, “Where Did Our Love Go.” I was as surprised as everyone else backstage to see him doing our song. “Why is he doing that?” people asked over and over. Ant was typical of the British New Wave rockers, with his makeup, chains, feathers, and earrings. Our eyes were glued to the monitor when suddenly we heard the audience screaming. Ant grinned until he saw what the commotion was all about. The camera cut to stage right, and we saw Diane in a short black satin skirt and silver-beaded jacket moving toward Ant, doing a bump and grind. For a second, Ant was caught off guard, but he moved toward her and danced along with her as much as he could before she disappeared again.

People in the room were mortified.

“I can’t believe Diane would do that!”

“The Supremes were always so classy, why would she act like that?”

“How could she just jump up there while someone else was performing?”

The wings were filling with people, all trying to get the best view of the reunion. There were some more clips of us, including our last appearance with Diane on Ed Sullivan’s show on December 14, 1969. Diane was walking up the aisle, toward the stage. Once she got onstage, she took the white fox stole she’d flung over her shoulder and tossed it to the floor as the crowd gave her a standing ovation. The applause got louder, and I was surrounded by Nick Ashford, Valerie Simpson, Richard Pryor, Martha Reeves, and some of my friends from the Temptations. Suddenly I heard Diane reciting the first lines to Nick and Valerie’s “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough”:

“If you need me, call me . . .”

Knowing Diane as they did, my friends backstage were encouraging me to do something when I got out there:

“Step on that fur, Mary!” Richard Pryor urged me, half-teasing.

“Kick it!” shouted a female voice.

I knew where they were coming from, and I had a little laugh over it, but I was soon swept up in the moment. Suddenly, everyone got quiet and Diane began speaking. She said she would be there forever if she started to talk about her life with Motown. Then she said a strange thing:

“But Berry had always felt that he’s never been appreciated . . .”

When the camera picked out Berry Gordy, Motown’s founder and president, it seemed to me, from the look on his face, that he was puzzled by her remarks. Then Diane said, “It’s not about the people who leave Motown”—of which Diane was one—“but it’s about the people who come back, and tonight everybody came back.” At that moment I thought of all the people, like my dear friend Florence Ballard, who couldn’t come back. Diane’s words prompted a standing ovation, and she gave Berry the high sign. He responded in kind, then turned his palms upward, as if to say, “I let you go.”

The applause died down as the opening notes of “Someday We’ll Be Together” filled the room. “Mary, Cindy,” Diane said as she looked to the wings. Cindy entered from stage right to more applause. After Cindy reached Diane’s side, I sauntered out from stage left, doing my slowest Detroit strut, just like we used to do in the Projects. The crowd roared. When Diane looked at me, she stopped singing. She hadn’t reached the bridge of the song, so I couldn’t understand why she stopped. Thinking that perhaps she’d temporarily forgotten the words, I picked up the lead, certain that Diane would come back in on the next line and everything would be fine. After a few seconds, Diane introduced us again.

“This is Cindy Birdsong,” and “That’s Mary Wilson,” she said, pointing at me. There was more applause, and then Diane started moving toward the edge of the stage. Before the show, I’d told Cindy to follow my every move. We’d had no rehearsal and there was no telling what could happen. When Diane took a couple of steps forward, we took a couple of steps forward. Diane moved up again, and we moved up again, all the while singing, “Someday—we’ll be together . . .” But on the third surge forward, Diane suddenly turned and pushed me. The audience gasped. In a flash I saw something in her eyes that told me she knew she’d crossed the line. Of course, this was later cut from the tape. When Diane saw that I would ignore her behavior, she hung back, so that on the tape you see me and Cindy standing in front of her. Within seconds Smokey was onstage, and we weren’t even halfway through the song. Many observers would correctly guess that he had been sent out on a rescue mission.

Before we knew it, other performers were filling the stage. There was Harvey Fuqua and the Tempts. Melvin Franklin of the Tempts came over to hug me. Then Michael Jackson came on, almost tripping over Miracles guitarist Marvin Tarplin in his rush to get to Diane. Richard Street and Marvin Gaye were onstage hugging me, followed by Dick Clark and the Commodores. I glanced over to see Martha Reeves and Stevie Wonder sharing a microphone, and I thought about how close we all were. Then I realized that Stevie wanted to have the microphone all to himself.

Before the next song, “Reach Out and Touch (Somebody’s Hand),” started, Diane tried to take control of the stage, shouting, “Stand back! Everybody stand back!” I could tell she was angry, and she even tried to push people back, but there were too many of us, and we all pretty much ignored her.

The stage was getting crowded, and I was still singing. I stopped and beckoned the audience to stand. Diane made another short speech, a tribute to Berry. When she finished, I called up to Berry, “Berry, come on down!”

The next thing I knew, Diane forced my left hand down, pushing the microphone away from my mouth. Looking me right in the eyes, she said loudly, “It’s been taken care of!” On the tape all you see of this episode is Diane turning around and calling out to Berry, “How long will it take you to get down here, Blackie [her nickname for him]? Well, come on.”

Once Berry got onstage, Diane stood at the edge hopping up and down like a little girl, waiting for her turn to kiss him. He went to everyone, kissing or hugging each as was appropriate. He thanked Diane after he kissed her, and then he and Michael Jackson embraced. As he stood there with us, Diane was behind him, poking him in the head and pinching his rear end like she would when we were teens.

After Berry and Marvin embraced, Berry came to me. We hugged and kissed, then he whispered in my ear, “You finally learned how to sing, huh?” I held his hand and raised his arm into the air.

The next thing I knew, Diane ran to the back of the stage and climbed the orchestra platform, so that she was standing high above the rest of us. When the song ended, the producers asked us all to stay onstage so that a photographer from Life magazine could take our picture. In seconds, Diane had scurried down from her perch and pushed her way to the center of the stage. She grabbed for Stevie Wonder and kissed him. When the photo ran, sure enough, she was smack in the middle.

Yeah.... But, what is missing in this passage is that the ladies had all agreed to wear white and black. And then, this heifer struts out in RED! Mary IS NOT innocent in this. She started all of the chaos and it was not necessarily an attempt to upstage Diana Ross. Mary wanted to become known and knew the HUGE television audience that would be watching. Who the hell is Mary Wilson? She's the background singing girl! She's a Marvelette, a Vandella, a Pip, What made her think that "she" was the MC and should control the stage? Control the stage before someone like Diana Ross, a Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, etc. This was Mary's problem at that time and for most of her life. She felt that she was (or, should) be on the same level as Diana Ross. She wasn't. She isn't. She never was.

“How could she just jump up there while someone else was performing?”

It was the booze, dear

Diana already bent over when dancing with Michael Jackson on her concert special from the early 1980s. I don't think the Adam Ant cameo was out of character or booze filled.

Mary's passive aggression runs right through those excerpts - even her comment on Stevie wanting the microphone to himself. Hadn't Martha developed her latterday goat vibrato by that time. I could understand if Stevie wanted her off mic.

[Quote] When the photo ran, sure enough, she was smack in the middle.

Mary writes this like it's an indictment of Diana. Wherever Diana stood, the photographers would have wanted a picture of her with another superstar. That's the shot that would run. That's show business. It's sad that Mary made "Diana's Shadow" her gimmick.

I honestly remember when this aired and what a big deal it was, but no one had any idea about all the background drama. To me the highlight was right after Micheal did a set with his family and said, "The old tunes are great , but it's time for something new" then broke into Billie Jean

It’s all just shocking. Shocking.

Thank you, Mary @ r247, for exposing the TRUTH. Once and for all.

[quote]R249 what is missing in this passage is that the ladies had all agreed to wear white and black. And then, this heifer struts out in RED!

They had all agreed to sing a Supremes medley, too. But Diane axed that at the last minute.

So what’s the difference?

[quote]she never apologized because she still doesn't think she did anything wrong, as the recent documentary about her life makes clear:

Well, she did apologize in the summer of 1990 when she was touring with Aaron Neville. She didn't make a fuss out of it, so it wasn't as widely reported, but she did send an official note of apology to the UN.

[quote]So what’s the difference?

Ross is the international superstar and lead singer on all of the songs. The other two are the backup girls.

Whatever Turkessa.... gobble gobble

What you have to take into context is Diana is not Miss Ross to Mary. She probably knows Ross better than anyone else in the world.

Mary knew Diana when she was still Diane in the Brewster Housing Projects, when she, Florence Ballard and herself took turns singing lead on the different songs in their repertoire. When they released their first two singles, Mary sang lead on one.

So even if some eventually came to see her that way, Mary is NOT a mere backup singer for Diana Ross.

It's a shame Diana and Mary couldn't put their petty differences aside, drop their egos and stubbornness and give the fans a proper reunion.

[quote]So even if some eventually came to see her that way, Mary is NOT a mere backup singer for Diana Ross.

You're right. The Adantes replaced her.

[quote]It's a shame Diana and Mary couldn't put their petty differences aside, drop their egos and stubbornness and give the fans a proper reunion.

Blame that on Mary. In later interviews one could see that even she realized what an idiot she was to walk away from $5MM clear and free. Just idiocy!

I get the sense Mary has gone on to live a happier and more fulfilled life than Ross. She didn’t get the same superstardom or money, but she seems grounded while Ross seems like kind of a bitter mess.

Maybe in the last 5-10 years of her life, R265. Wilson spent most of her post Supremes career chasing after Diana Ross and her level of fame and fortune. But, it seemed like in her late years of life that she finally resigned herself and became happy with her place in the music industry. Once in awhile there would be a little flair up but most of the time she seemed at peace.

[quote]Mary knew Diana when she was still Diane in the Brewster Housing Projects

Exactly. Mary knew Diana way back when, so whenever Diana acted up and got all snooty, Mary put her back in her place. She was like that family member who knocked you back down to size lest you forget where you came from. I think Diana resented that because she wanted to get as far away as possible from the projects and all the drama surrounding it.

[quote]Wilson spent most of her post Supremes career chasing after Diana Ross and her level of fame and fortune.

I think Mary was well aware of her limitations. That's why when she finally was in charge of the Supremes, she hired several different ladies to sing lead, before she decided to share the spotlight. She wanted to keep the Supremes thing going forever because what else was she going to do? She never developed any other employable skills outside of entertaining.

Diana was an entertainer, not a great singer. I do think she's underrated as a singer but her talent was putting on a show.

[quote]I get the sense Mary has gone on to live a happier and more fulfilled life than Ross. She didn’t get the same superstardom or money, but she seems grounded while Ross seems like kind of a bitter mess.

Ross has a close knit family of kids who have all stayed out of trouble, and are very successful in their own right. She's also been semi retired since the early 2000's. She tours when she wants to, which has always been what she's most loved doing. It speaks volumes as to her stature in showbiz that she's been able to sell out venues on a constant basis even though she's only put out two new albums of material in the last twenty two years.

Honestly, the last decade is probably the most content and at piece she's been in a long time. She's more than happy to take a backseat now to her children's careers, and let them have the spotlight.

She's miles more well adjusted than Madonna or Barbra.

If Ross is so at peace and hunky dory well adjusted, why did she have to resort to shoving someone she feared was upstaging her onstage?

Physical violence is never the answer.

If MM was going to have a chance, she needed a decent rehab, for starters. But I don’t think addressing substance abuse really worked for any stars until Mercedes McCambridge went to AA in the late 60s (?)

^^ oh dear - wrong thread!

Leaked footage of the Motown 25 rehearsal

Uh, MARY! went to college and earned a degree.

R274, Mary went to college and got her degree when she was in her 50s.

I wish my mother had gone to college.

There are tens of millions of people who went to college, yet they will never come close to staying your mother's level of extraordinary success and monetary fortune, Relish. Be proud.

Whenever you see clips of Diana performing live or have seen her in person, when something's not going quite right on stage or she wants something to happen/change quickly, she has this smooth way of turning away from the audience, looking back at her backing singers or orchestra, or to the wings, usually making a stern-seeming sudden hand or eye gesture without making a beat to have the change made, pronto. I really believe that's what was interpreted or reported as a "shove" between her and Mary that night during the show's March taping. I don't think Diana was trying to beat up Mary onstage--it's just that Diana seems not to have ever completely grown past that adolescent stage of knowing when and how to process and restrain your in-public temper outbursts.

Also, many forget or don't mention that Diana was gone from Motown's roster and into her early years of her million-dollars-fetching new RCA Records label contract at the time, and she may have felt uncomfortable or pressured by her new management about being a still very in-the-spotlight famous entertainer, now on their label, appearing on a TV special giving tribute and ratings to her former label and boss where many hit contemporary artists and acts were still very much happening and charting.

Mary went to the School of Hard Knocks! Ha ha ha!

[quote]r277 There are tens of millions of people who went to college, yet they will never come close to staying your mother's level of extraordinary success and monetary fortune, Relish. Be proud.

Do not presume to know what it’s like till you’ve walked a mile in my (misspelled) relish.

[Quote] That's why when she finally was in charge of the Supremes, she hired several different ladies to sing lead, before she decided to share the spotlight.

Mary insisted singing leads on dreary ballads to pave the way for her solo career - a solo career she claimed that would begin with an album produced by Marvin Gaye. She was not well aware of her limitations.

Interviewer: Did she elbow you out of the way?

(long pause)

Mary: No.

The whole interview is very good (if you have time to listen) but go to the 1:20:30 mark-1:23:21 mark where Mary speaks about the Motown 25th

^The above was probably one of her very last interviews. She was 76 & 1/2 when the interview was conducted.

Was that quote from Florence delivered via ouija board or seance, r241?

Ross had star potential; Mary and Florence, not so much.

Mary has always said that she thought Diana was not pushing her, Mary Wilson, out of the way but it was an attempt for her to try to gain control again and it didn't matter who it was in front of her.

Of course there was no elbow.

Nothing RHYMES with elbow!

To commemorate the event Micheal Jackson wrote the song, "Shove it!", but Gary talked him out of it, so he changed it to "Beat it!"

I think I can do it.

[italic]One well-aimed, Calico’d elbow Half Pint drew back And knocked off the Nell bow

I'd recommend the book "Call Her Miss Ross" if you haven't read it. If it's all true, she's quite a cunt.

I love how she said Patti Labelle probably eats false eyelashes.

The most damning thing in that book CALL HER MISS ROSS is when the Supremes are doing a club act in 1969 and everyone on the crew hates high handed Diana. They also hate her two dogs, who are allowed to run around backstage.

One night a shriek goes up - Diana’s walked into her dressing room and found her dogs had been poisoned!

I’d say you have to be a REALLY insufferable cunt to have coworkers poison your pets!

"Who wants to eat Auntie Mary's treats? Yes, you do! You are such good little boys!"

But really - that’s quite shocking, isn’t it?

Maybe even worse than your personal assistant attacking you with a tazer in your sleep (???)

[quote]Mary has always said that she thought Diana was not pushing her

Hmm... It's been decades since I read Mary's book and "Call Her Miss Ross" but I distinctly remember a passage (it's odd what remains in memory after decades) where the incident read like the following;

Mary was very angered and got in her limousine with other people. She started yelling; "She pushed me! Can you believe that she pushed me!?! Where is the champagne! I need a glass of champagne!"

For some reason that sticks in my mind from one of those two books. Anyway, what is true is that Mary rode the wave of that so-called push for many, many, years without uttering a breath to dispute it. In the recent interview at R282, all she says is that something happened and she doesn't go any farther than that. But, after a VERY long pause says that Ross did not elbow her.

[quote][R227] They don’t sound the same but if you believe [R224], black women are not just screamers and Sanger’s. They both had a distinct subtlety to their voices. Certainly wouldn’t say Billie sounded white.

[r84] What was really unprofessional was to entice Mary to participate in the show by conceding to her conditions and then reneging on those promises. They promised her a tribute to Florence and then gave her a script about producers and writers. ...with no mention of Florence Ballard. Mary only did what they promised her she could do: give a tribute to Florence Ballard. DePasse and friends thought they were slick but, as always, they were just tacky.

[quote]r297 In the recent interview at [R282], all she says is that something happened and she doesn't go any farther than that. But, after a VERY long pause says that Ross did not elbow her.

It’s not really a long pause - it’s one second. (count it out loud: One one thousand)

And the interviewer is phrasing the question wrong. He asks, “Did she elbow you out of the way?”

Mary answers, “No. Something did happen, but she didn’t elbow me.”

But why is he bringing in elbowing?? It’s always been described as either a push or a shove.

An excellent interview with Mary on Joan Rivers' show. She discusses the incident about 7:30.

R270, you do realize that the events at Motown 25 was 38 years ago? Yes, Diana has found a sense of peace with family and herself.

If she still fumes when she’s not addressed as Miss Ross, she’s not “at peace,” honey.

R300 I think it's funny that Mary Wilson wrote a book shitting on Diana Ross and still thinks they are friends.

Mary knew her meal ticket was Diana, no matter what project Mary was promoting.

[quote]r303 it's funny that Mary Wilson wrote a book shitting on Diana Ross and still thinks they are friends.

She doesn’t consider themselves friends, but family.

Ross didn't just front the Supremes. She fronted the fucking company, itself. Again: While Gordy outlined his plan to his executives, he told them "Gentlemen, this is where Motown is going, and Diana Ross is going to take us there!"

Was she under the conference table at the time, with his (married) cock buried down her throat?

He wasn't married while he was with Diana. He divorced his second wife, Raynoma, a year prior to getting with Ross. Truth and fact in all things, pal - that's the ticket!

As I recall from DL's Ryan/Tatum O'Neal phase, Ryan wasn't very nice to Miss Ross.

[quote]r308 He wasn't married while he was with Diana. He divorced his second wife, Raynoma, a year prior to getting with Ross.

So, the Supremes were signed by Gordy at the start of 1961, and we’re supposed to believe Miss Ross waited almost 5 whole years to start fucking him?

That’s not her style. Or in any way believable.

I guess you're unfamiliar with the Supremes' early material. No one was fucking for those flop tracks...

Au contraire - It makes sense Diana was fucking Gordy to be kept under contract, since the records themselves were, as noted, flopping.

Why only Diana? Why not all three?

Diana was working her way through several of married Motown men in the early days, most notably Smokey Robinson and one of the Holland brothers.

Question: after Gordy, did she ever fuck another black man? It seemed like she went all cracker after him: the 1st hubby, Gene Simmons, Ryan O'Neal, the 2nd hubby, etc.

If Diana had pushed me, I'd have kicked her in the CUNT bone.

#MeToo

Get in line.

Berry saw something in Diana that nobody else did. He was shady in business but he had great instincts. He was right about her.

[quote]r317 Berry saw something in Diana that nobody else did.

Her willingness to take it up the ass?

Who were the gay men at Motown? "Cholly Atkins" sounds very gay.

Well, I'll give credit to Mary for a few things;

1) She must have had her business affairs in order because no one is coming out and fighting over her estate. Maybe it's too early? Anyway, her two surviving children never really made a mark in life in their own lives but lived off the fruits of their mother. Her other child that she adopted has some mental challenges and so I assume she provided for him. Mary basically supported her whole family ie the children, grandchildren, a sister, and I believe a brother. But, this story is not much different than the other Motown artists and their offspring.

2) She was quite instrumental in helping to get legislation passed that would protect (and rightfully pay) artists for their work.

3) The "Supreme's Gowns) collection. Hopefully, some museum will buy the collection, maintain and expand upon the musical contribution and importance of the group.

4) Her countless interviews (all over the place) are a good resources for maintaining the legacy of The Supremes and Motown even though they're just from her perspective.

No matter what had been originally planned for the end of the Motown celebration, Diana singing Ain’t no Mountain and then Someday, we’ll be together turned out perfectly.

It's REALLY disappointing reading about this, because neither Diana or Berry learned from the mistakes made with Florence. Diana still tried to be petty, even those, with Berry's help, she rose to meteoric heights in stardom. It was never enough for her.

[quote]It's REALLY disappointing reading about this, because neither Diana or Berry learned from the mistakes made with Florence.

Uhm... what was there to learn? Both Ross & Gordy are respected pioneers/leaders in their professions and both are extremely rich. Florence and Mary are dead.

I know it’s easy for me to say this as someone who’s not a multi millionaire- but couldn’t Miss Ross have done more for the surviving children of Florence Ballard, who to this day live in poverty? Ross greased the wheels of Flo’s downfall… and even if she HADN’T, how hard would it be to protect the still suffering kids of longtime friend and collaborator she professed to love?

I don’t care if she did set up a measly trust fund for each child back in the day (which was gone by the time the kids came of age.) La Cunt Ross could and can afford to do better.

Ross tried to save Flo's house but Flo's husband wanted the money directly. Ross did not want to deal with him, knowing that the money would likely go elsewhere.

[quote]I know it’s easy for me to say this as someone who’s not a multi millionaire- but couldn’t Miss Ross have done more for the surviving children of Florence Ballard, who to this day live in poverty?

Them ain't her children. Them Flo's & Tommy Chapman's kids. If you want to blame anyone then you should look for their no good daddy who stole their money. Or, look at Flo's sister, Maxine, who has tried to make a dollar off of Florence's name for decades. There are also many other aunts and uncles too who could/should have stepped up to the plate. Flo was one of 15 siblings. "Family first!" and "Blood is thicker than water!" as the sayings go. What did her "best friend" Mary do for her and those kids?

But, Flo's kids have to take responsibility for themselves. Their very own mother proved that you can come from the ghetto and/or projects and make something of yourself and travel the world.

FYI: $10K given in 1976 would have been about $36,000 in 2007.

^^ Which is roughly the equivalent of what Miss Ross spends on sleep masks each year.

I get it; the money’s just not there.

Diana's brother succumbed to drug addiction. He and his wife were murdered. Is that Diana's fault?

yes, all bad things are apparently Diana’s fault

^ Well, it's her (Ross's) money. She worked hard and saved for it. She can do whatever she pleases with HER money! Ross offered to save Ballard's house. Ross either saved or helped Mary buy a house. What did she get a return? A scathing book and an evil bitch that destroyed a HUGE payday. I'd argue that Florence Ballard was more in tune with Ross and knew how she ticked better than Mary Wilson ever could. Florence might have been somewhat jealous of Ross but there really isn't any record of her speaking badly of Ross. Also, there are records of where Ballard tried a few times to reach out to Ross but could never connect with her. This might have been at the explicit direction of Berry Gordy and Motown. I recall reading somewhere that Ballard sent Ross a baby birth basket but it never reached her and was returned. What did Mary send?

I don’t want to be Diana’s friend. I like her songs and a singer and performer are all she means to me.

I don’t care if she’s a bitch on wheels—as long as she can sing me a good tune, I’m fine with her

She set up trust funds. Even if you personally don't think that counts, that counts.

And sane people don't poison dogs to get revenge on their owner. It honestly sounds like the club had left rat poison out in the rooms and the dogs got into it, anyway, not that they were poisoned on purpose. Diana quit the club with the support of the rest of the Supremes after that, and I don't blame her.

[quote]r332 I don’t care if she’s a bitch on wheels—as long as she can sing me a good tune, I’m fine with her.

A tunnel vision selfishness that matches Diana’s own!

Are you an R Kelly fan, too? I mean, his music’s good…

Diana would piss on Mary but otherwise I don't see the comparison.

Mary’s books and interviews have been a loving attempt to bring her childhood friend back to the person she once was… a shot at helping the sequestered star really look at the past and yes, her own actions.

A friend who will not kowtow to your fame and power but will be TRULY honest with you… that’s a real friend. In fact, that’s what friends are for.

Do you know where you’re going to?

Piffle. Mary was underhand. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

Mary was nobody’s sheep(le), especially Miss Ross’.

That’s why Miss Ross had to singlehandedly destroy her.

[italic] You think that I don't feel love / What I feel for you is a real shove…

[quote]Question: after Gordy, did she ever fuck another black man? It seemed like she went all cracker after him: the 1st hubby, Gene Simmons, Ryan O'Neal, the 2nd hubby, etc.

There was gossip around the time that "Missing You" was released that Diana and Marvin Gaye had a fling. The lyrics and especially the dedication "To My Beloved Marvin Gaye" raised quite a few eyebrows, and stories started circulating about how they had a brief romance. Lionel says those lyrics he wrote were culled from a conversation he had with Miss Ross after Gaye's death.

A couple of years back, someone on the one of the Motown message boards who claimed to work on Motown 25 even said that Marvin and Diana had sex in Marvin's dressing room prior to the show.

Diana was scheduled to sing at Marvin's funeral (She was in the program and listed in the news announcements) but was too upset to go and perform and was a last minute no show.

Years later she put a cryptic line in the CD acknowledgments of her Every Day is a New Day CD that said about how she had been thinking about Marvin a lot recently.

One of Flo's daughters recently self published a book recently about her life and she mentions that after Flo died Diana offered to adopt Flo's kids but Flo's family declined the offer and said they were able to raise the girls themselves.

It would be nice to believe Miss Ross had good intentions, if that adoption offer really happened.

On the other hand, knowing her ways, she might have just wanted to turn them into mini indentured servants.

[quote]One of Flo's daughters recently self published a book recently about her life and she mentions that after Flo died Diana offered to adopt Flo's kids but Flo's family declined the offer and said they were able to raise the girls themselves.

"I received my copy of "SUPREME EXIT," the new book about Florence Ballard, last week. While I was disappointed at the brevity of the book and an overall lack of new information, I did find the book intriguing. [[All things Supreme intrigue me!)

Among the thing I found most interesting in the book are the comments about how kind and good Berry Gordy and Diana Ross were to Flo's kids. Nicole, Flo's daughter, states that Flo's girls always called Diana "Auntie Boss," and that Diana never missed sending them gifts for their birthdays and at Christmas. It is stated that the Ballard family loved Diana and welcomed her to Flo's funeral, though other reports thru the years have made it appear Diana just showed up uninvited. This account refutes that and makes me think the media has spun the stories over the years just to get a rise and keep the feud going. It's actually kind of sick, but fans have sucked it up and kept the nastiness alive for decades... Maybe it is all a matter of perception, as opposed to fact?

I know Ms. Wilson stated in her writing that Diana kind of made a scene at Flo's funeral, but that too is very briefly refuted in the new book. It is kind of understood by Nicole, Flo's daughter, that because of Diana's huge celebrity status, she drew a lot of attention by attending. She does not fault Diana for being Diana.

According to the "SUPREME EXIT" book, Berry Gordy was also very good to the Ballard girls, extremely generous and kind to them, and they loved him and referred to him as "Poppa." Again, the media through the years has painted a picture of Gordy as Satan, totally uncaring and uninvolved with Flo and her family after her exit from the Supremes. This book does not support that at all.

I know this new book is not the gospel, not at all, but as a fan of ALL of the Supremes, it actually makes me feel better to read - for the first time - that Diana and Berry were generous and kind to the Ballard girls, and the Ballard girls cared deeply for them. It makes me think that a lot of the crapp we have read through the years has been exaggerated and fabricated for the sake of stirring the pot and feeding gossipy media interest.

I have always HATED the Diana vs. Mary vs. Flo garbage anyway. It's kind of ridiculous. The women who made up The Supremes were all special to me. They were human. They had their own personalities. The agreed and they disagreed. They hurt each other. Then they loved each other. Shades of gray all over the place....

The "SUPREME EXIT" book is worth reading, Supremes fans.... a far from perfect book, but worth reading."

And...

"I have not read this book and will not be reading it. In fact i have not read any books on the Supremes since Dreamgirls. I can do without all that drama. Having said all that it does sound like this book is perhaps more grounded and not the usual hatchet job. I do not claim to know what went on back in the day, but this does sound closer to what i have always perceived to be closer to the true facts. I am legally bound [[for the moment) not to publicly publish what i am told are the true facts behind Ms Ross and Mr Gordy's involvement in this sad story, but i will say that this book may well have it's heart in the right place. I would love to hear what other members think of this publication if and when they get around to reading it. I remain intrigued but i shall not break the promise to myself not to read any books focusing upon the Supremes. Thank you for starting this interesting post."

Hmm... strange... No mention of Auntie Mary

[Quote] Maybe it is all a matter of perception, as opposed to fact?

Of course it is. No one discusses how Martha treated the Vandellas. Martha never made it as a solo star so there's no winner (baby) and underdog narrative that can be exploited how the media (and fans) see fit.

Of course they were nice to Flo's girls after she died. They probably felt profound guilt for stabbing her in the back.

Berry and Diana didn't rape Flo.

While anything is possible R339 I don't believe that about Marvin Gaye. Marvin was a very tortured soul. It was not only about his own sexuality but those in his immediate family. He grew up in a very religious household. I believe his father was a preacher. Anyway, Marvin's father was a preacher on Sunday but a Marvelette on Monday through Saturday!

Marvin was married to Berry Gordy's sister Gwen. She believed in the mantra; "SEX, DRUGS, and ROCK & ROLL!" Marvin believed in just drugs and rock & roll. He wasn't too good at taking care of Gwen and knowing of her in the... biblical way. She had MANY lovers and flaunted that in Marvin's face. It was his sexual frustration and confusion that led Marvin into some really wild and kinky shit to get off. Ross doesn't come across as one to put up with any of that. There can only be one DIVA in the room and certainly wouldn't be Marvin.

I guess you didn't read Janis Gaye's book...

[Quote] It was his sexual frustration and confusion that led Marvin into some really wild and kinky shit to get off.

I'm confused so I pimp out my teen wife? Yeah, very plausible take.

^Some people get off by just watching. It's called porn.

"Anyway, Marvin's father was a preacher on Sunday but a Marvelette on Monday through Saturday!"

I cackled when I read this.

[Quote] Some people get off by just watching.

And those people are not necessarily confused or frustrated. Marvin was fucking around while married to Gordy's sister.

[Quote] "Anyway, Marvin's father was a preacher on Sunday but a Marvelette on Monday through Saturday!"

There's a good reason for them saying that.

Marvin looked deathly in that clip.

YouTube terminated the account, op.

Someone in this thread will know the details better than I (a mere Diane hater/truth clarion) but when Marvin Gaye settled his contentious divorce, part of the agreement was the ex wife would get the profits from his next album. Well!

He then proceeded to put together the WORST album he possibly could, and he even wanted to give it an offensive name to hurt sales further, “Sanctified Pussy.”

It did not do well.

^^ I should amend that, I don’t know how the album did. Maybe it did sell well, but the point is he didn’t want it to.

That album is “Here, My Dear” (1978)

Poor Mary.

She couldn't accept hearing those four dreaded words:

"Back to your microphone".

Well, when you’re [italic]shoved [/italic]toward it…

You persuaded me to shove you, and I did ...

You made me shove you! You made me shove you!

"Sanctified Pussy" was a song Marvin recorded for Columbia, during the "Midnight Love" sessions. After he died, they went in and did some creative editing, and turned it into "Sanctified Lady", which made the R&B top 10 as a posthumous release. If you listen closely in places you can still hear the word "pussy".

I thought it was a great song that should have crossed over to pop, but it didn't. The lyrics were pretty crazy, talking about sucking and fucking and smoking crack and women swinging both ways, and also reading the Bible and going to church and Jesus...dude was pretty fucked up mentally.

Re "Here, My Dear", it didn't do well commercially, and wasn't well reviewed by the critics at the time. It's one of those albums that a lot of critics have gone back and reappraised after the fact, and is now considered by many to be a lost masterpiece, close in stature to his best 70's work.

It’s the VERTIGO of his ouvre (sp?)

[Quote] The lyrics were pretty crazy, talking about sucking and fucking and smoking crack and women swinging both ways, and also reading the Bible and going to church and Jesus...dude was pretty fucked up mentally.

That stuff was par for the course. Ask Billy Preston. Or Ray Charles.

R206 Diana could act as well as sing, it came through in her delivery. And she doesn’t sound white, no way. She was distinctive, the best thing to be.

It still cuts me up that her mother died making homemade jam.

Video unavailable at OP

I have a question about the song “I’ve never been to me,” referenced upthread. Charlene, the artist who had the hit with it, is she a WOC? Just curious, can’t tell from either her voice or her looks.

No. She's a WOM.

"It still cuts me up that her mother died making homemade jam. "

I thought she died on a weekend trip to Spain

You want to watch this. It's only 5 minutes. 5:08 minutes to be exact.

"I must have been insane, I lied and said mama died on a weekend trip to Spain."

^ Such a lie, she never got out of the house, never even boarded a train

Mary's son is very good looking although reportedly he is a mess. He's on the left of Mary and on her right is Turkey's husband.

Turkey?

Microphone? I was supposed to have a microphone?

^ "The girls!"... Ed Sullivan forgot their name. That has to take you down a notch or two

Diana was really not that attractive

@r376, at least Ed Sullivan didn't say, "The colored girls!"

This woman, Nichole Rosalyn Elaine (Rene) Ballard aka Variety Chenevert, makes shocking claims about Diana being at Florence’s house the night before Flo’s death… there was screaming all night long, a pitch black driveway, and a basement full of men and “equipment”.

At the wake/“wait” there were other coffins in addition to Florence’s, one holding a woman in a blue chiffon dress who’s continued to have a career singing on stage, afterwards.

How’s little Miss Ross gonna explain away THIS bombshell?? Very incriminating.

[quote]There was gossip around the time that "Missing You" was released that Diana and Marvin Gaye had a fling. The lyrics and especially the dedication "To My Beloved Marvin Gaye" raised quite a few eyebrows

People raised their eyebrows because they all knew that Diana HATED Marvin Gaye. When they did their duets album, all their tracks had to be recorded separately at different times. Diana Ross refused to be in the studio with Gaye, whom she regarded as a trashy druggie.

Then, when Marvin died, Diana jumped on the opportunity to use his death to sell records.

That's showbiz.

379 That is not Flo's daughter.

It's a psycho in a $17 wig.

Oh, to have $17!

[quote]Diana being at Florence’s house the night before Flo’s death… there was screaming all night long, a pitch black driveway, and a basement full of men and “equipment”.

Diana gettin' some big black cock?

Those Ballard daughters are pretty rachet. That double-line eye makeup is so sad.

[quote]Berry saw something in Diana that nobody else did.

Her beef curtains.

Nobody else did? Nonsense. Pure nonsense. Diana even stands out doing background for Mary Wells.

Diana stopped dating brothers ages ago. She doesn’t even surround herself with black folks save for her children.

[quote]Diana stopped dating brothers ages ago. She doesn’t even surround herself with black folks save for her children.

(sigh...) Just another crab in the barrel...

Diana has always been a family person. She grew up in a black family (shock!) and she never abandoned them.

Diana's band is seven strong with black musicians. She probably beats them, though.

?In Richard Street's autobiography he wrote of the night Miss Ross gave him her virginity.

[quote]In Richard Street's autobiography he wrote of the night Miss Ross gave him her virginity.

A Lot Of Inconsistencies Here

Reviewed in the United States on October 18, 2020

-The first one--was it was stated that the Marvelettes turned down Baby Love and it went to the Supremes--when that is WRONG. The song was Where Did Our Love Gog . Any die hard Marvelettes and Supremes fan would know that...Secondly--he had a whole damn chapter on Diana Ross..but never once mentioned the name of Caldin Gill of the vVelvelettes whom he was married to and she gave birth to his son Richard, Jr. All he called her was his ex wife. He told all about Diana being his first love but never ever said anything about how he courted and wooed Cal....As for the Temptations--if in fact that DID go on--that is another damn shame. As far as him auditioning for the Four tops--I think that was a fallacy---a falsehood...In regards to Florence Ballard committing suicide that is a lie and I will leave it at that. I was friends with her sister Maxine. Florence was making a comeback--so would it make sense for her to commit suicide?? As for Paul Williams--I decline to say anything about that one. All I will say RIP Richard--this should have been and could have been a whole lot better

-Richard must have really hated being one of the Temptations. This is a very negative narrative. Also, hardly a page goes by without a spelling or grammar error. Very poorly written, and contains factual misrepresentations. Don't bother buying this, it will not give you any insight as to what it was like to be a Temptation.

-I rate this book a 3. I am sure.that this story was told truthfully and with candor, but there are gaps. In addition, there are too many topographical errors in print. There is no excuse for this.

Old people cared about the Diana v. Mary thing.

But for the youth, it was all Michael Jackson.

[quote]R394 Old people cared about the Diana v. Mary thing.

What a cruel, cruel thing to say. I follow the younger artists… Lisa Loeb, Jewel, etc!

[quote]In Richard Street's autobiography he wrote of the night Miss Ross gave him her virginity.

Something is very off when these Motown "stars" cannot get a legitimate book deal and/or have to self-publish. It's not like there isn't an eager audience to purchase these books. Therefore to push a book that has so many spelling, grammatical errors, and inaccuracies is unacceptable and revealing. Can the information be believed? Many of these Motown "stars" are BROKE! They weren't paid their full value to begin with (good businessman that Berry Gordy) and whatever they were paid many of them spent it on drugs and/or trying to live the "high' life. So, what do they do? They grab onto whatever that can be used as a selling/interest point in an attempt to make some money. If the information is true or not doesn't matter. The objective is to feed the beast and make money from it.

I don't know if the the information about Diana Ross is true or not. But, what I noticed in many posted reviews of these books when concerning Ross is that there is a pretty healthy population that become very upset and angered when anything nice/good is said about her. The "beast" wants the Cruella DeVille stories and so you feed the beast.

But, I believe that Ross has now used these negative stories to her advantage. You have people afraid/fear of her. She plays this myth image to her advantage. According to her she never requires anyone to call her Miss Ross (although she said she likes it) and a lot of this stuff was initiated by Berry Gordy. The feud between she and Mary is akin to that of Joan Crawford and Bette Davis (which Davis said there was never a feud but used that to her advantage) and worked in keeping their names in the public eye.

I do know Diana Ross is a shitty tipper to waitstaff.

That’s as good a reason to dislike her as any other.

I can’t get that link to work , r398. But this Oprah show is.

It’s every singer’s nightmare: her voice starts failing in the very first song, but she has to go on and get through two more. Oh dear.

Just click the "Watch on YouTube" link, R399

thanx

They should have called it "Diana Ross vs. The Supremes."

The moonwalk was invented when Diana shoved me across the stage.

Oprah and Diana...does each consider herself the greater star?

Diana comes across as nice in the R398 video. At the same time, I barely believe a word that comes out of her mouth.

Oprah looks so much better and seems nicer in that clip than she does today. Diana looks beautiful, although that mane of hair is gigantic.

[quote]Oprah looks so much better and seems nicer in that clip than she does today. Diana looks beautiful, although that mane of hair is gigantic.

Well, here's a lot more of that interview R406, if you and others haven't seen it. It was during her book tour to promote her autobiography. I believe that this was Ross's very first appearance on the Oprah Show and where they initially met finally in person. Also, it is the interview where Ross publicly admits for the first time that Rhonda Ross is Berry's biologic father. She says a lot and reveals a lot here about her personality and events.

Another good and revealing interview is this one. BTW; This is Ross's real and natural (okay permed or flat ironed) hair.

She looked like an office worker with that 'do. They even used it on a compilation cover. Bleugh.

I once saw Diana with one of he r daughters (can't recall which) at IHOP. She stared right back at me as I stared at her. She wasn't wearing her huge wig, of course.

Shouldn't have been any drama at all because I taught them better than that. If I'd have been there, then I'd have made them all pick a switch - yes, Diane's uppity Miss Ross ass too!

The 70s Supremes were an interesting act. Each line up was talented. But The Supremes, though they did their best to keep up with the music with their recordings, never really updated or reinvented their image and their live act became very Vegas, if not a parody of itself by the last line up in 76/77.

^ Wow, they suck!

It is amazing that they had 12 number one songs. "Love Child" was their biggest seller, but "Stop! In The Name of Love" is probably their signature tune. My personal favorite was "I Hear A Symphony".

Susaye is so bubbly.

The shove felt 'round the world.

You've given me a true shove, and every day I don't thank you

For a feeling that's not new

So uninviting, so unexciting

Baby baby, whenever you're near I hear a caca-phoney

The shove bug done bit me, didn't mean for him to get me WHEEEW!

What’s everyone’s favorite Diana album?

Shockingly I love “Workin’ Overtime”. There’s no huge hits from the album but there’s a lot of fun songs to listen to if you’re cleaning the house.

I feel like “Paradise” is a fucking gem.

I also like the “Silk Electric” album.

The '80s was probably your coming of age.

Diane is a cheap cunt. She rented one of Liberace's houses in Vegas, and instead of tipping the staff she graciously left a chocolate record in the fridge.

[quote]But, make no mistake she was there to solidify her crown as QUEEN, if not that, but the star who really built Motown.

Yeah, them Mahogany dollars paid the bills for years. (Snigger.)

I have a love-hate relationship with her '80s albums. The quality suffered without Motown (Barry?) and her insistence on producing didn't help things. She was a terrible record producer.

But I really loathe Workin' Overtime (sorry r419). I think it's poorly produced (not one of Nile Rodgers' better albums) and she was trying too hard.

Take Me Higher and Every Day is a New Day are far superior.

The title track doesn't really work but "The Force Behind The Power" was her most consistent and sympathetically produced '90s set. It didn't have a chance in the New Jack Swing era but it did deservedly well in the UK.

The Force Behind the Power - Peter Asher produced some of the songs and, as he did with Linda Ronstadt, he really knew how to bring out the best in Diana. She sounds great.

[quote] What’s everyone’s favorite Diana album?

I like “Shove Me in the Morning”

And yet Asher also worked on "I Love You"... There are some bad vocals on that. And it seems like she's not finished with bad vocal choices...

Take Me Higher definitely ranks among her best solo work, maybe second only to The Boss, which was meticulously produced by Ashford and Simpson. I think La Ross was emboldened to produce on her own due to the success of the DIANA album in1980. Before it was released, she had all the tracks off that album re-mixed, stripping away a lot of the instrumentation that Nile Rogers had put together. Despite that reach for mediocrity, it was her biggest selling album, but it is nowhere near the quality of the under-appreciated TMH or The Boss.

No, I think she was emboldened by the though of saving money and thus making more profit. It's probably why she worked with Amy Winehouse's drummer on this new album rather than Mark Ronson.

*thought

I've always preferred The Boss to diana. Ashford and Simpson knew how to write for Diana and how to get the best vocal takes from her.

diana has some great songs but it just doesn't have the depth of songwriting or vocals that The Boss has.

Take Me Higher has one of Diana's best vocals, I Thought That We Were Still in Love. Gorgeous.

[Quote] stripping away a lot of the instrumentation that Nile Rogers had put together.

That's not true. The Chic Mix has been released commercially. The biggest differences is the alternate vocals at parts.

Someday We'll Shove Together

Ashford & Simpson also new how to make the slushy stuff palatable. They're leagues above Diane Fucking Warren.

I'm wishing I could filter out the word "shove" from this thread to avoid all the tedious queens who confuse repetition with wit.

[quote]Diane is a cheap cunt. She rented one of Liberace's houses in Vegas, and instead of tipping the staff she graciously left a chocolate record in the fridge.

And by "chocolate record" you mean a greasy turd?

But don’t you think the album “The Last Time I Shoved Him” is decent, r435?

It’s no “The Force Behind the Shove,” but - -

No matter what you do or say, R435, I'm gonna shove you anyway.

R420 I was born in 1987!

All of you who think you're so smart picking on Miss Ross, The Boss, the REAL Queen Bee can just shove off, shove it and shovel off to Buffalo... Why I nevah in all ma life

Here's Miss Ross' latest song

Diane from Human Resources. For r409 😆😆😆

Diana Ross - Why so much hate?

-I think there's always been a misunderstanding. Florence was the one who started the singing group of friends, but it was clear from the start that Berry saw something he could market in Diana's voice. That choice was made long before they had Diana sing in a lower key for the "Where Did Our Love Go" single. Diana sang lead on 9 tracks on the orginal "Meet the Supremes" LP, Florence sang "Buttered Popcorn" which became the only 45 featuring her as lead, and Mary sang one. If you listen to Hip-O Select's expanded version of "Meet the Supremes" you will see that Diana sang lead on nearly all of the unreleased tracks as well. The first time Berry turned them down, they went to Lupine where Robert West recorded Diana as the lead vocalist on the A-side, and Mary on the B-side. This was their very first professional recording. Florence did not sing lead until the second release at Motown. There were reasons too that Berry revoked promotion of that single in favor of another artist's work and never again wished to make extensive use of her vocals. On their second album, there were 2 tracks that several lines sung by Flo and Mary but the reality is Diana sang lead on every track. Florence would not get another lead until "Good News" on the Sam Cooke tribute. Smokey Robinson has stated that Diana was seen as the lead singer from day one and he would know considering he stole Marv Tarplin from them. I just don't agree that Diana was brought up to the front during the recording of "Where Did Our Love Go". If you'll recall, they had been recording for nearly 3 years, and had 9 singles already released. They were the "No Hit Supremes" although they did chart pretty high with "Lovelight...". "Run, Run, Run" was proof that they were using the wrong key for Diana. Voila, lower the key and sexy results changed everything. But the reality is that Diana sang lead on 8 of those 9 "flops". I recall my cousin, a few years older, buying "Your Heart Belongs to Me" which dented the Top 100. This was a first entry point for many fans as it was also the first Supremes track pn those Motown packages of big hits. From day one, everyone knew Diana was the lead singer. That's the perspective of a life-long Detroiter.

-Most people seem to excuse Mary (and Cindy) for their plotting that night. They arranged to have the sound turned up on Mary's mic (oh vey, all that bellowing foghorn!) and Diana's turned down. That would have enraged Diana enough to get the loud mic. But didn't Mary have a delicious scheme? :)

-Remember though that this was the 60's and very few women were really able to succeed without a powerful man to guide them through the business? Weren't all of the Motown women in effect competing for Berry's attention? Wouldn't Florence be jealous of Berry's affection for Diana? It's human nature and these were young girls at that time. Why would Florence immediately marry the Supremes' driver, if not to show the other 2 that she could also get that attention? There was always a terrible animosity between Flo and Berry and how could that not color her assessment of Ross, who did not have that problem? Why does no one obsess about Cher's relationship with Sonny, or Ronnie and Phil, or, the list goes on.....Darlene Love certainly has a different opinion of Ronnie than Ronnie's fan do. It doesn't really prove what transpired.

-Florence Ballard technically had a better voice than Diana Ross. Very powerful-just listen to Long Gone Lover. But we wouldn't be talking about the "hate" for Diana Ross, or the Supremes at all, if it weren't her voice. Instantly recognizable. This wasn't the same as picking John or Paul as the lead singer. Motown history is littered with great singers that were never heard from again after a single or two.

-The Supremes didn't get 10 shots at a hit because Ross was sleeping with Gordy. It's widely known that this did not happen until 1966 after the big success had already arrived and indeed, happened romantically in Paris when the Supremes were there. They received those because there were several minor hits and Gordy envisioned what could be done with Diana as his protege. Why doesn't anyone criticize Gordy for having multiple partners at that time? Gordy brought Chris Clark with him in travels and kept that statuesque blonde in the opposite room. She had many single releases with only a minor hit "Love's Gone Bad". Yet, we don't hear widespread hatred for those two. No one really talks very much about what Gordy did to Raynoma either. Double standards at work here - it's always the successful woman's fault? Why didn't Chris Clark become a superstar on the level of a Ross? She slept with Gordy. It takes more than sleeping with someone to achieve success. Talent, drive, and love of one's work are necessary.

-She does sort of carry herself as though she were royalty.

-Jealousy

Diana was the original Ciara. She course corrected after Berry Gordy got her pregnant and refused to marry her (he was single at the time). She married a white man who claimed Berry's child as his own. She leveled up before leveling up was a thing... and of course black women aren't allowed to do that. She also put herself first and did what it took to be the star she wanted to be. Women aren't allowed that kind of ruthless ambition. The rest are just flimsy excuses to hide the real reason some people don't like her. The black community never lets black women be redeemed. They will always hold over her head stuff she did 50 years ago regardless of her achievements.

I went to her concert and she still sells out so the haters are probably mostly dead at this point.

Also, just because Gordy gave her a nudge didn't mean the public had to like her. She put in the work with performing regularly and doing the required coaching to be a superstar while others thought only talent is needed! She worked hard which some are jealous! She had the drive!

There’s too many stories out there about Ross being nasty to people for it to be just talk or jealousy of her success.

And no one’s denying Ross’ talents at all. She’s got loads of charisma and stage presence. Props to her for scoring an Oscar nomination on her first time on a major film with limited acting experience. But it still stands that a lot of folks don’t like her for justifiable reasons.

"Why would Florence immediately marry the Supremes' driver"

"And Flo, she don't know 'Cause the boy she loves is a Romeo"

Ooh! I got him back in my arms again Right by my side I got him back in my arms again So satisfied

"Also, just because Gordy gave her a nudge"

It was a shove, dear

Isn't Gordy the father of one of Diana's kids? That was quite a "nudge"

^ Never mind, I see you mentioned the parent thing

[quote]There’s too many stories out there about Ross being nasty to people

Stories, yes. But, facts?

They’re coming from various sources…are they all lying?

[Quote] Why would Florence immediately marry the Supremes' driver, if not to show the other 2 that she could also get that attention?

Protection.

Diana Ross is a black woman. She's a black woman who came to prominence in the 1960s. It's been claimed that hotels would drain the pool after Sammy Davis, Jr. swam in them. What a mindfuck: To be a winner, baby, while also being seen as less than or downright repellant. I'd be a high ridin' bitch too.

[quote]It's been claimed that hotels would drain the pool after Sammy Davis, Jr. swam in them.

Do you think they ever found a glass eye?

Say what you will about Diana, she has a great catalogue, both with the Supremes and solo.

About a decade ago, her solo albums (and Supremes albums) were being reissued by the now-defunct Hip-O-Select label. They were gorgeous. Lots of bonus material - alternate takes, demos, unreleased songs.

The physical releases stopped at about 1976. Baby It's Me got a digital expansion. But I wish that series had continued. Would have loved to have seen what they came up with for the Boss.

Ross never capitalized on her success in “Lady Sings the Blues.” That performance was pieced together by doing many takes of every scene and keeping the best moments. When she did later projects she wasn’t as impressive, because they were shot in a standard, more straightforward way (where they hire professional actors who can deliver.)

Her later film projects suffered because they were terrible films. She was totally miscast in The Wiz.

[Quote] That performance was pieced together by doing many takes of every scene and keeping the best moments.

Yeah, because Motown was known for wasting money...

I'm surprised that Diana didn't play Shug Avery in [italic]The Color Purple[/italic]. Did she even ask about playing the role?

You're surprised Diana didn't play a lesbian?

Diana cried when she heard that "I'm Coming Out" was inspired by those In The Life.

Diana's problem was that she wouldn't take supporting roles. She needed to be the star. I think she could have carved out a nice career as a character actress if she had dropped her ego.

Why would she want to? A headliner is a headliner.

Now I'm picturing Diana as Velma Von Tussle.

[quote]-She does sort of carry herself as though she were royalty.

ALL HAIL THE QUEEN!

[quote] [R29], it all seems edited really well because it looks like a very smooth finally.

I don’t think it was edited that well. The shoving occurred right before you see Diane pointing at Mary from above her head (a very rude/condescending gesture). There’s a very abrupt cut from Mary walking to her furiously doing a step-touch dance. Not a smooth transition at all. Plus the music switched as well.

They should have kept what was going on during the shove but just not actually shown the shove (that’s what multiple cameras are for).

SOME SHOVES YOU NEVER GET USED TO! Doo doo doooo

[quote] Do you think they ever found a glass eye?

That's my shtick.

R445 This is my first time ever hearing of Chris Clark. Was she supposed to be some type of answer to Dusty Springfield?

Really R462, are you insulting LGBTQ ppl or are you implying Diana wouldn't play a lesbian because she can't comprehend the concept of what "acting" entails?

r472

You sound tiresome. All I'll say is: The 1980s were not the same as today.

Chris Clark is quite talented.

OH! Someone had this performance colorized!

[quote]the Supremes... these were "good" girls. They were cultured and sophisticated. They were like flowers that wafted and moved ever so gently in the wind. They gave an image of the epitome of femininity. The light snap of their fingers. Their little steps. the gentle movement of their arms and wrists. These were girls that you could bring home to momma! Of course this could be the farthest from reality--as that slut... uh, Mary wrote about later. But, the packaging of the Supremes was truly amazing! Lessons from Maxine Powell, choreography from Cholly Atlins, the songs, and the girls themselves, just all came into line.

What a lot of people don't know is that Luther Vandross patterned the choreography of his live background singers' performances on the image of the Supremes. He wanted them to have those classic sophisticated movements just like they did.

On another note, has anyone ever written a book about the dancers (most of the time uncredited) on shows like Carol Burnett, Hullabaloo, etc? For some reason I would think it would be an interesting story.

Chris Clark co-wrote LSTB screenplay and I met her in Palm Springs. She signed my DVD case when we hung out. I was told not to mention Diana and the Supremes.

She’s a great actress. Editing. Any someone Crete an amazing actress out of a dud.

Not only is she fantastic on Lady Sings the Blues, she played a Schizo in a TV movie and was very impressive.

She didn't really shove me, she just kept me hanging on.

[quote] On another note, has anyone ever written a book about the dancers (most of the time uncredited) on shows like Carol Burnett, Hullabaloo, etc?

Hullabaloo had Donna MacKechnie and Michael Bennett as part of their dance regulars. Bobby Sherman was not a Shindig dancer per se but was featured weekly dancing and throwing attitude in the show. Finally, you can easily spot Teri Garr in the group of dancers in the TAMI show clip at r475

Lada Edmund, Jr.

Edmund, Jr.’s fame did not make it past Hullabaloo.

Do you think any of these dancers were gay?

^ Camel toe

[quote]Ross never capitalized on her success in “Lady Sings the Blues.”

Diana's problem was that she wasn't looking for roles, she was looking for STAR vehicles.

This hurt Barbra, too.

They would both rather do shit that focused on THEM than great movies that focused on the whole cast.

What projects might Ross have done? There were no black female movie stars - consistent ones - until Whoopi Goldberg. Lena Horne? Dorothy Dandridge? How many vehicles were written and produced for them? Very few.

Ross was considered for the female lead in the James Bond movie "Live and Let Die."

[quote]What projects might Ross have done? There were no black female movie stars - consistent ones - until Whoopi Goldberg.

And, Whoopi had to hustle for a few of the movie roles that starred her. I can't remember the names but at least two of her movies were written for a White male and she had to convince the money people that she could do the role and the movie would still sell.

They didn’t make a black film in Hollywood for about two years after The Wiz tanked. I blame Diana for that.

Who they should have made it with? Janet Jackson?

Ross was trying to develop a film about Josephine Baker (where she herself would play Baker) but, for whatever reason, the project fell through. This was post-The Wiz and around the time she left Motown to go to RCA. I suspect the failure of The Wiz, plus the fact she had become even more difficult to deal with when she became independent, probably scared away producers.

Eventually the film was made by HBO and directed by Brian Gibson. Lynn Whitfield won an Emmy for playing Baker.

Been a Ross fan all my life. That said, and objectively speaking, I just don't see her as being a very good actress. Sure, she's good at acting out associated behaviors to the role (writhing around the floor in heroin withdrawal, for example), but she fails in dialogue. Mahogany was obviously adlibbed to he'll and back. A good actor takes the words written in the script and breathes life into them. She's also too self-conscious. There are always holes in her acting performances. She's passable but not good, and certainly not great.

I'm surprised that Diana's venture into TV Movie of the Week isn't a DL fave.

Double Platinum is a tv movie where Diana plays Brandy's mother. Brian Stokes Mitchell plays her father. Roger Reese(!) plays Diana's agent/lover. Christine Ebersole is her personal assistant. It has many laugh out loud moments. There's a scene where Roger Reese is trying to comfort Ross and you can see her thinking, "Don't touch my hair, you British limey."

Did David Frost ever try to date Diana?

notstarring.com (which isn’t exactly verified info) has this about Ross:

The Bodyguard : Diana Ross was orginally cast for the lead role.

The Color Purple : Ross was considered to play Shug Avery.

Cuba : Turned down the role of "Alexandra" opposite Sean Connery.

Diva : For years, Diana Ross tried to develop & star in the American remake of the French film, DIVA to no avail. The project stalled and never got off the ground.

The Josephine Baker Story : Diana Ross tried for years to bring THE JOSEPHINE BAKER STORY to the big screen but the project stalled. Years later, the project was made into an HBO movie starring Lynn Whitfield.

Live and Let Die : Writer Tom Mankiweicz and director Guy Hamilton wanted Ross as Solitaire but studio execs insisted the character be a young, innocent white woman - as she was in Ian Fleming's original novel.

The Main Event : The moviemakers suggested to Ryan O'Neal that Ross should play the boxing manager/trainer. He told them he thought it was "ridiculous."

A Star Is Born (1976) Diana Ross was shown script according to the book Barbra: The Way She Is

Tough Customers : Diana Ross and Gene Hackman were to have starred in TOUGH CUSTOMERS in the '70's but the project never got off the ground. Ross went on to make THE WIZ.

The Witches of Eastwick : Diana refused the part of Alexandra because she didn't want to be part of an ensemble cast of women.

R488, the director originally assigned, John Badham did indeed want Janet for the role. She couldn't sing but she would have been very good in the role. Badham wanted all the previous Dorothys like Mills and Red Woods to be in the movie but Dorothy had to be very, very young. When he found out that Ross had been signed, he set out to get fired. He told the producers that the entire movie would be told through Dorothy's/Diana's eyes and we would never see her. He was fired.

The Bodyguard was mean to be Diana and Ryan O'Neal. I think they had an affair. He claimed that she didn't want to be black. It's been claimed that she didn't want to do nudity featured in the script. I guess one tit in Mahogany was enough.

*meant

Whitney would have been the right age for The Wiz movie.

Diana was supposed to do "The Main Event" with Ryan O'Neal, but dropped out after their relationship soured.

She was also being considered for "The Bodyguard" with Steve McQueen, but that deal fell through. Then it came up again with Ross and O'Neal, but, as with "The Main Event, the former lovers didn't want to work with each other.

R497, holy shit, that's right. Whitney was not well known at the time but had done some backup singing. If Motown had looked around and really searched, everything might have been different.

I really don't believe Gordy was ever going to use Stephanie Mills in the movie. He's a very logical and good businessman and he had to know that you could simply not put that face on the big screen. If anything, Ren Woods got great reviews in LA and Milos Forman was so impressed that he cast her to sing the title song in the movie of Hair.

Wasn't Stephanie Mills signed to Motown? The album (by Bacharach and David) didn't do shit so she left the label. And with that, any hope she had of doing the movie probably went out the door as well.

Stacy Lattisaw might have done it.

[quote]They didn’t make a black film in Hollywood for about two years after The Wiz tanked. I blame Diana for that.

While there's truth to that it's a helluva burden to lay on one person's shoulders. Where is the Black community and Black investors that will invest in film? Or, is it that there simply isn't any talent? IMHO, he puts out a terrible product but ONLY Tyler Perry can get movies made?

White people want to watch white people. (And straight people want to watch straight people.)

R503, back then, in the seventies and eighties, black entertainers had less financial clout and influence. So, yeah. It’s better now.

But how it must’ve hurt Stephanie not to be able to reprise her Broadway role on film. All because she wasn’t pretty enough.

R506, tell me about it!

Not to hijack the thread further, but it's telling that Stephanie Mills only has three non music video credits on IMDB, The Wiz, TV special, The Love Boat and a guest starring appearance on a sitcom called Watch your Mouth. She was just not made for movies or TV.

Motown signed Stephanie in 1975 and released her in 1976 when the Bachrach/David record bombed. They bought The Wiz in 1977 so it's not likely she was even considered for Dorothy. Correctly so.

R503 are you that obtuse? You think it's only about having talent in Hollywood when you were black in the 60s/70s/80s? A LOT of talented black actors didn't make it because of the RACISM there. Don't kid yourself; this is America!

The reason The WIZ movies flopped wasn't solely because of Ross. The entire movie sucks sucks sucks.

The Bway show is full of joy. The Movie is dark and sad.

No way Stephanie Mills had a chance in hell for the movie. It was packed with black stars, not unknown Bway actors.

Aileen Quinn wasn't a star.

I never knew Aileen Quinn was black.

Re: The Wiz: why did they change the lyrics to “[bold]Ease On Down the Chode[/bold]” for the movie?

Certainly Ross could have sung that with real feeling!

The Wiz' problems began with Ross needing to have the movie rewritten to have her be a school teacher. Before, Ross did several TV specials and sang "Home" but she was always playing a high school girl and she wasn't bad. Ross is so restrained you wonder if she was on barbiturates.

[quote]The Bodyguard was meant to be Diana and Ryan O'Neal. I think they had an affair.

They did have an affair. And Ryan kept it going to get Diana to agree to do The Bodyguard. But she didn't. So he dumped her.

I wonder if he had an affair with Streisand to get either him or her cast in What's Up Doc? I don't know the timing.

R491 Diana's acting is really amateurish in that. It's like she is counting beats between each character talking.

Is "Double Platinum" a rewrite of "I Could Go on Singing"?

One review said the adult Ross seemed so eyed and naive you wondered if she should be in charge of kids as a schoolteacher.

WIDE eyed!

Sorry

Diana was playing a menopausal teen in The Wiz.

When [italic]Double Platinum [/italic], Billy Masters said the cameraman must’ve shot Miss Ross’ closeups with a Navajo blanket over the lens…lol.

Diana was age 34 playing 24.

That kind of math only works on DataLounge.

I had never heard of Double Platinum. Im surprised how amateurish she looks here because she's usually a good actress--although best in scenery chewing roles

Stokes is terrible in that clip.

They are both awful in that clip.

Overacting + Underacting does not = Acting.

There's an awkward cut, as if they cut down on Christine Ebersole's lines.

It's pretty shocking so few people know this episode. Danny Thomas, no glass table in sight, had another sitcom called Make Room for Granddaddy. In this episode, Diana plays one half as Miss Ross and the other as the album cover for Diana Ross. One is uppity and imperious, the other humble and sweet. It's almost as if it were written for the two sides of Diana and she actually lived it.

To be fair, Brandy came off far worse in Double Platinum.

[quote]Double Platinum

It's a fun movie. It's some thing to watch when the weather is awful out and one doesn't have anything to do around the house.

[quote]The movie was a Nielsen ratings success, debuting at #16 for the week. Initially airing on ABC, the telefilm has since been syndicated by VH1, MTV, BET, Centric and TV One (U.S. TV channel) where it still is a recurrent favorite.

Even the brilliant Roger Rees came off looking bad in Double Platinum. This is the scene where Diana looks like she ain't having it from no British white boy.

Start at 10:15-12:02

Diana dated Michael Bloomberg. She likes her men like she likes her latte, rich, white and cold.

Diana loves her a wealthy Jewish man.

What turned her off on black men?

Once you’ve had white, you’re never contrite.

Diane still refers to the AA community as "Afro Americans." Chick severed her roots a looooong time ago. Furthermore, while googling her daughter, Chudney, several sources list her as being caucasian. Ain't THAT some shit!

Diana has some gall blaming the failure of The Wiz on Sidney Lumet. She says in her book Secrets of a Sparrow that he directed it like a play and should have tapped into more special effects. She may have a point but the major reason why the film sucks is her performance. She is so dreary in it and she's the main character. All that shrieking and bulging of her eyes is tiresome at 134 minutes. She brings absolutely no joy. She also looks horrible in it. But she can't even admit that her performance - which should be the heart of the film - didn't work.

Berry Gordy may be a good businessman but this was one of his worst decisions. He should have vetoed Ross playing Dorothy right away.

This is Diana with Stephanie. Stephanie is probably in her mid teens and she looks like Diana's mother.

The Wiz movie is dreary beyond Diana. She's not to blame for that. She clearly went along with the vibe. That said, whatever vibe the movie had, she was too old for the part.

[quote]Diane still refers to the AA community as "Afro Americans." Chick severed her roots a looooong time ago. Furthermore, while googling her daughter, Chudney, several sources list her as being caucasian. Ain't THAT some shit!

And, Ladies & Gentlemen... let me introduce you to a fan of R224!

This thread has inspired me to revisit some of Diana's big hits. Mahogany theme on now. I'm struck by what a good singer she really is. Maybe not a big instrument, but her phrasing is distinctive and subtle, very pleasing.

The failure of the Wiz movie artistically is ALL because of Lumet.

He vomited The WIZ onto the screen

Always a glamour puss, Ross looked drab and borderline homely in THE WIZ.

Dorothy isn't supposed to be a glamorous.

But she wasn’t supposed to look like that either r544.

Sisters

Real sisters

....and

Much better pic of Rita Ross, pictured in the 60s pic with D

R549, stink link.

So dainty! You can really hear Florence's voice in this clip.

"The Happening" may have been the last single under which their group was billed as The Supremes, but it wasn't the final single on which original member and 1967-fired Florence Ballard sang on. She also sang on the group's next two singles on which they were newly billed as Diana Ross & The Supremes, i.e. "Reflections" and "In And Out Of Love."

Who knows if anyone will ever see whatever footage got edited out of the "25" special that might have to do with the on-stage shoving stories about these two. Maybe Diana had them legally banned for a century, akin to the Kennedys forbidding viewing of Jackie's stained assassination dress until we're all gone. ;o Or maybe it's a myth that anything extra has been vaulted -- or possibly that excerpted footage is now gone, because it's 2021 and nobody really gives a fuck anymore (?).

And now Mary has left us, which for some reason I still can't believe happened this year, and one day Diana will, too -- and I think that after that point, especially, people will just focus on The Supremes' beautiful images, voices, songs, fame, sophistication and legacy. The advent of social media and outlets like Yahoo, reposting obscure songs and video segments that even Motown and The Supremes probably never thought would surface again ever, will continue to help that Supremes beauty-focused fascination to grow, I believe.

No. I think they'll always focus on the Diva vs Background Singer(s) thing. People never stop liking mess.

"The Happening" is such a fun song. I think it's my favorite Supremes tune.

It was the beginning of the end, though. Motown meets Vegas.

It's different, that's true. But so damn catchy.

[quote] one day Diana will, too

Diana will live forever!

[quote]Do you think they ever found a glass eye?

Dibs!

When Diana sings with a group of people, do they make her voice louder? Does she add in extra notes to make her voice stand out above the chorus of voices?

^ Diana does a a great job in that clip. Sure she’s too old but she sounds good

Is that video of Danny Thomas THE Danny Thomas? The lesbian? I’ve never seen actually seen him, only knew of the reference by Blanche.

I love “The Wiz”. I watched it religiously as a kid. I liked how weird it was.

I was absolutely terrified of the subway scene!

[quote]^ Diana does a a great job in that clip. Sure she’s too old but she sounds good

I really was impressed by her dancing ability in that movie.

R563 Yes, she moves beautifully, light as a feather.

Maybe the hairdo helped accentuate her age? It looks like a mature career woman's neat, professional style.

No r564, she was too fucking skinny. Had she had a bit of youthful "baby" fat then she would've looked younger. I remember in a 20)20 (?) Interview around this time she admitted she jogged like crazy and was all into fitness. A bit too much, IMO

Dorothy is not in her twenties. The role should have been played by a teenager.

Diana was not in her 20s when she did The Wiz.

She was 33!

Yes, but even if Ross read as 25, that age would still be too old for the character.

[quote]Yes, but even if Ross read as 25, that age would still be too old for the character.

But, even so, does it matter at this point? I agree that Ross was miscast in "The Wiz". I agree that "Mahogany" is an amateurish film or whatever you want to call it. IMHO, that is no longer important or an issue. What is pertinent in this discussion and to her film "career" is the Ross mysticism. What does this girl/woman have? Or is she simply a success because of a lack of Black female stars, image, marketing, or whatever else? These films have become cult classics--for lack of a better term.

"The Wiz" is still airing and has not been shelved to the dusty vaults like many, MANY, other films that will never be seen again. I have met much younger kids who love "The Wiz: movie for whatever reasons. As far as "Mahogany" is concerned... well, I've posted this here before, but there was a gay bar that would show that film rather frequently and without fail every time that film was played on the bar's large screen an immediate hush would come over the bar and everyone's eyes were transfixed upon the screen and were watching--especially the opening fashion show scene. It truly is a fascinating thing to observe. It's as if everyone is in a trance. But, I've seen the same thing happen among many. Men and women. Whenever it's "Diana Ross" people just stop and their attention is drawn to whatever it is she is in or is doing.

[Quote] is she simply a success because of a lack of Black female stars, image, marketing, or whatever else?

Are you arguing this point? Has anyone ever claimed this?

Mahogany is like Valley of the Dolls. It's best enjoyed via clips.

[quote]These films have become cult classics. "The Wiz" is still airing and has not been shelved to the dusty vaults like many, MANY, other films that will never be seen again. I have met much younger kids who love "The Wiz: movie for whatever reasons.

I hope everyone had a Happy Halloween!

The Wiz is to the African American community what The Wizard of Oz is to whites.

All of Diana's three motion pictures went on to become beloved classics among African Americans.

[quote]Diana will, too -- and I think that after that point, especially, people will just focus on The Supremes' beautiful images, voices, songs, fame, sophistication and legacy.

Not if DL has anything to say about it.

[quote]The Wiz is to the African American community what The Wizard of Oz is to whites.

The Wiz is to the African American community what Mame is to whites.

Fixed that for ya.

LOL r575. Perfect analogy.

Diana was going to do Mame but Berry talked her out of it.

The shove bug done bit me.

Maybe she could bring "Timbuktu" back to Broadway.

Yes, we need Timbuktu to come back!

They’d probably put Jennifer Hudson in the lead.

FROM THE GRAVE!!!

Mary Wilson: Mary Wilson’s family wishes to express their congratulations to Diana Ross on her new album Thank You. We know Mary would have led the chorus to share her congratulations if she were here with us in person, and we’re extending that sentiment today 💕

After "Cats" she does have a track record in big movie musicals.