Theatre Gossip #440: Ode To Irene Ryan Edition

The one good thing about the Jane Lynch casting is how much of a fuck you it is to Lea.

I was onstage with Irene Ryan when she DIED, and I kept going!

Yeah, R1, but it would have been even bigger if Chris Colfer had been cast as Eddie Ryan.

[quote] The one good thing about the Jane Lynch casting is how much of a fuck you it is to Lea.

Lea is probably laughing herself sick. She knows Beanie could have never squeezed herself through Jane Lynch’s hoo-hah. Jane was cast as a diversity choice. Lesbian? Check.

I had managed to avoid looking at Beanie (Dolly excepted) till now. She really made little impression aside from shameless big girl delight at herself. OMG! This is amateur at best.

That's nice to hear she got that ovation, but you know, half of it was because she was beloved as Granny.

I can't wait to see what the prisspot at the end of the last thread thinks of THIS title!

plus she was play Pippin's granny, and she sure as hell delivered that song wonderfully! A true show-stopper, in the literal and truest sense.

"was playing", that is

as I try to ward off an "Oh, dear!"

Any advance word on "Chicken & Biscuits"?

I heard she got her period on opening night!

[quote] Any advance word on "Chicken & Biscuits"?

It's HORRIBLE!

Isn't her voice too thin for the Funny Girl ballads? It's not a full vocal tone--okay (if a little squeaky) in up tunes but not something yoiu want to hear in The Music That Makes Me Dance.

And her gyrations seem at best capably amateurish. Is this supposed to be casting along the lines of some we've seden in recent musical productions, where instead of talent or physical suitability they hire someone incorrect and dare you to criticize?

The offbeat charm she showed in Hello, Dolly! (well, I was charmed, anyway) is not necessarily going to escort her through a big, glamorous lead like Fanny.

I know the other characters treat her as if she isn't glamoroius, but Streisand always had a kind of showbiz presence about herself, even beside the great voice.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I expect a debacle here. I feel sorry for her, because there probably are good lead roles for her in revivals and new shows. But Fanny isn't one of them.

Too bad she's dead, she could do Sunset Boulevard. She sings as well as Glenn.

I’m voting for Billy Porter for Tuesday night Fanny (you know Beanie will never be able to handle 8 shows per week).

[quote]I was onstage with Irene Ryan when she DIED, and I kept going!

That's very nice, Jenna, but she didn't die onstage. She suffered a mild stroke offstage during a performance and simply went back to her rented apartment feeling unwell. Later, she flew home to California and died there several weeks after that from the combined effects of a brain tumor and cardiovascular disease. Four packs a day for years will do that to you.

Arnold Soboloff didn't die onstage during a performance of Sandy Duncan's Peter Pan either. He died in the wings of a heart attack after making a second act exit. He knew something was wrong but kept going and finished his dance! His understudy stayed in his own costume but did Smee's lines for the rest of the performance.

The show must go on!

Well, maybe it does, but I sure hope somebody called an ambulance!

I believe that it was David Burns who died on-stage during an out of town preview of "70, Girls, 70" after getting a really big laugh. I think he keeled over, and the other actors didn't realize he was gone. don't know how they proceeded with the rest of the performance though. Was he in the "Go Visit Your Grandmother" number originally? Hans Conried was brought in very quickly within a few days to take over Burns' role with some rewriting.

I adored her in Theodora Goes Wild.

For the thousands of obsessed teenage girls who will flock to the theatre to see her as Fanny, Beanie is the beautiful refection of their love's affection. A walking illustration of their adoration. Her love makes them beautiful, so beautiful, so beautiful....

I'm kidding but it's really why the show with Beanie could be a big hit.

Just streamed Under Milk Wood from National Theatre at Home. Some lovely acting and simple, clever staging and, goodness, all that Dylan Thomas done by Michael Sheen. And I’ll admit to being a sucker for the Welsh accent.

[quote]I can't wait to see what the prisspot at the end of the last thread thinks of THIS title!

Seriously?

There aren't enough of them to keep it going, r20. It's not Wicked.

She hasn't Streisand's voice either, which went a long way to zooming her to stardom.

I never miss a Beanie Feldstein musical

Mimi

In that WICKED clip, Beanie's voice is thin and she often alters notes because she can't hit them. And its WICkED for Christ's sake...They're going to have to do serious work on the FUNNY GIRL score for her to manage this. This one will be about as good as Michael Mayer's "On a Clear Day..." Remember how Harry Connick was going to be BRILLIANT? Expect disaster on this one.

I'm an eldergay. Not old enough to have seen either Streisand or Hines as Fanny but young enough to have heard from many, many friends who said Hines was fabulous in the role, She kept the show open for well over a year after Babs left. Great singer and comic actress.

FG Standby - Miss Linda Gerard

I saw Mimi Hines in Funny Girl, R28, after having seen Streisand, and Hines really was very, very good (though different from Streisand), which is why the show ran a year with Hines.

For years afterward, I kept wondering why Hines didn't have bigger career. She had the gifts for one. Maybe she didn't need it that badly. Maybe it was bad luck. It takes more than talent to reach top stardom and stay there.

Soboloff actually managed to make his way to the stage manager's office, where he managed to make his way after his heart attack onstage, before he died. But he died with his boots on! He finished his scene! Bravo! That's how I want to go. Not with my passengers yelling and screaming in terror.

Anybody else watch Bourne's The Red Shoes?

One word, r30...chipmunk

Beanie and Ben. Both BOX OFFICE POISON, I tell ya.

[quote] Anybody else watch Bourne's The Red Shoes?

I saw it live. Horrible.

[quote] Was he in the "Go Visit Your Grandmother" number originally?

Yes, and that’s actually when he died.

This account is via Burns’ best friend Jim Brochu, in a column by Ron Fassler

“ And on that night in Philadelphia forty-seven years ago, right after Burns performed his big number “Go Visit Your Grandmother,” he got his usual big hand after the song. Comedic business followed with policemen entering to interrogate the aged criminals, with a running gag popping up every time the word “operation” was mentioned. Burns would pull up his shirt and say, “I had an operation! Here’s the scar!” But on the third go-round with the bit, he barely got the word “operation” out. Seeing that Burns was failing, the two quick-minded actors playing the cops proceeded to carry him off into the wings, where he expired almost immediately. The audience thought it was a joke, and the laughter marked the last time anyone ever heard from the great Davy Burns on stage.”

Beanie actually looks cute in the Funny Girl pic and trailer. Not a bad look for Fanny, except for the fat. Except - they’ve costumed her, and shot her, to hide her weight. I wonder if they’ve asked her to lose weight? Is she overweight enough to get the surgery?

The voice is another matter. Would they really have offered it to her without asking her to sing a couple of the numbers and be sure she can really sell them?

Beanie dropped some weight a few years ago and looked great. I don’t think she needs surgery but she really should get into shape because Fanny is a killer role and not just vocally.

Judging by that Dancing Through Life video and the performance as Monica Lewinsky, Beanie gained back some of the weight she had lost during Dolly.

The Ado Annie in the touring Wokelahoma is a black trans woman named “Sis.”

Is Sis talented? Can we ask that?

Was Sis named Bro before she transitioned?

Is her signature song "I'm just a "girl" who cain't say my deadname?"

They apparently even changed the keys (octaves?) of the songs to accommodate this perfect casting choice.

So the producers of the tour practiced, open, public discrimination against cis white women to cast the part?

They cast an obese black tranny as Ado Annie in Oklahoma

A trashy obese black tranny. She's a presence on Twitter, and her style is really ghetto.

you're all talking about Beanie losing weight but isn't really inclusive thing that Mayer may do to is play into the fact that Fanny is heavy girl who no one thinks can succeed in show business because of that and who proves them wrong through drive and talent?. - and is that a bad thing for a show to do? I'm still concerned about weak singing But It's not biography even though it's based on a real character's story.

I was a real person! And I was NEVER fat!

I think you're giving Michael Mayer a lot of credit for thinking through. He really doesn't.

In that teaser ad, Beanie screws up the delivery of the line “Hello gorgeous.”

R30 Was it this?

Is it true that Monica Lewinsky is Beanie’s understudy for Funny Girl?

Monica is actually looking quite pretty nowadays

What will they do with the line ' And you've got skinny legs!'? The publicity font and logo are straight out of a high school or community theater production.

People of course knew Ryan as the beloved Granny. They didn't know however she had been a musical and vaudeville performer so when she hit it out of the park like an experienced trouper it was surprising and brought the house down.

R56 Plus it's a fun, catchy song and it was stage brilliantly with a follow the bouncing ball.

Why are they touring Wokelahoma? Do they really think it's going to be successful outside of NYC?

It wasn't a success in NYC. Never recouped. Was closing early.

At least we can be glad that Daniel Fish's woke concert version of Most Happy Fella died in upstate New York. It sounded truly dreadful with a handful of non-binary gender neutral (is that redundant?) humans playing multiple roles in Frank Loesser's classic.

Really, r35? I was quite taken by it. What didn't you like about it?

[quote]They cast an obese black tranny as Ado Annie in Oklahoma

Stunning and brave!

[quote]Isn't her voice too thin for the Funny Girl ballads?

Yes..

[quote]Is this supposed to be casting along the lines of some we've seen in recent musical productions, where instead of talent or physical suitability they hire someone incorrect and dare you to criticize?

Yes.

[quote]The offbeat charm she showed in Hello, Dolly! (well, I was charmed, anyway) is not necessarily going to escort her through a big, glamorous lead like Fanny.

Agreed on your second point, but I wasn't "charmed" by her in that show. A friend of mine said that Kate Baldwin played Irene Molloy in such a way as to make it clear that she was disappointed not to be playing the starring role. In other words, she overacted and over-sang the part. I felt the same way about Beanie's performance.

[quote]Maybe I'm the only one, but I expect a debacle here.

You're not the only one.

When the Ok tour ends Sis will be standing by for Beanie in Funny Girl.

All this tsuris over Beanie and Jane when everyone knows the biggest mistake is having Harvey re-write the book.

[quote]All this tsuris over Beanie and Jane when everyone knows the biggest mistake is having Harvey re-write the book.

Well, you have a point there....

Harvey rewrite might feature:

1) when Fanny refuses to continue with the Follies, she insists Ziegfeld to star (now cast as black) Eddie Ryan but he's now going by the name Bert Williams

2) Fanny's problems will go away as long as she is true to herself and her self-love, will be pounded point by point as in most of Harvey's shows

3) He'll try to shoehorn in Julian Eltinge, the very famous female impersonator of the time, or someone representing Eltinge.

These are among Harvey's biggest themes.

But are they "Funny Girl"?

R67, you may be joking or half-joking, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Harvey throws in any or all of that stuff.

[quote] Really, [R35]? I was quite taken by it. What didn't you like about it?

I'm a big Bourne fan but he's been coasting on fumes for years now. His shows have become repetitive bores. I still go in hopes that he will pull something brilliant out of his ass one more time, but it hasn't happened. I think his masterpiece was Play Without Words, but I also loved Swan Lake, Edward Scissorhands and his version of The Nutcracker. Cinderella and The Red Shoes were interminable.

I'm R67 Glad you agree. I'm kind of joking, but Harvey puts these kinds of ideas and them in almost everything he writes or adapts. I really wouldn't be surprised if they turned up in the show.

Sure, it's fun to slobber over the potential trainwreck of the Funny Girl revival, but can we also revive this, please? Just for the joy?

Hey, Andre De Shields now has a Tony and is working in "Hadestown". Put his name over the title like they did for Nell Carter and the original cast like the last revival, and he's there! Armelia McQueen's passed now, and unfortunately Ken Page's voice wasn't in good shape last time I heard him though. But Andre certainly could do it.

I mean, Nell Carter's name was up there by herself, last revival. But it was with the original Broadway cast.

Can I get back in the show now that that fat dyke cunt is dead?

Irene, you were replaced by Charlene Woodard, not one of the other ladies. Did they lodge some wort of complaint against you? I'm still kind of stunned that after her Oscar win, her career just vanished. The topless scene in "Fame" was a mistake, but Irene was very talented.

some "sort" not "wort"

Depending on who you talk to, Irene was let go either because Nell hated her for upstaging her and forced her dismissal, or because Irene missed performances due to her drug use.

[quote] I'm still kind of stunned that after her Oscar win, her career just vanished. The topless scene in "Fame" was a mistake, but Irene was very talented.

Irene's saga has been detailed on the DL a few times, but to boil it down, her career suffered when she went to battle with her record company over several draconian issues in her contract and she was blackballed in the industry (not sure I buy that last part). She also had one of those monster manager-husbands who made things difficult, and she did have a bad drug habit.

The Funny Girl video things look good the artwork and title are exactly what r55 said.

It's probably bad for so much fat-shaming here and remember that Harridan Smith was a lot bigger after the West End when she toured and that's what's on video

[quote]she is true to herself and her self-love

Pics please.

Starmites would have been a much more appropriate vehicle for the Beanster.

Can the Mayoress of Datalounge please post a moratorium on Beanie bitching until after the first of the year? It's not that I don't agree, but six months of the same thing is like being trapped a touring company of "They're Playing Our Song" as one of Vernon's boys.

Vanessa

(R82) you have no idea!!!!!!!

R83 I thought she had dementia and wasn’t being seen in public anymore?

R85 That is Glynis.

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 1998, a production of "Swan Lake" opened at the Neil Simon Theatre.

All this moaning about Harvey’s new book. But it’s already been produced! This Beanie revival is the same one that was done in London directed by Michael Mayer and rewritten by Harvey. And then Harridan Smith toured it! I only watched about the first half hour or so, but it didn’t seem radically different at all.

R82 is right. Let’s get some fresh posts in here, like opinions of Follies or LucyMame.

I didn't see Swan Lake when I had the chance, r69, and this was the first work from him I'd seen. I enjoyed it very much and thought it was beautifully designed.

[quote] and is that a bad thing for a show to do?

When the show is portraying a real person - who was NOT fat at all - then yes, it’s a bad thing for a show to do.

Streisand looked nothing like Brice, but she was tall and slender like the real Brice was, and it was fine.

"Streisand looked nothing like Brice"

They both have/had a Jewish look, r91.

[quote]Can the Mayoress of Datalounge please post a moratorium on Beanie bitching until after the first of the year?

Consider it done.

Henceforth all discussions in Theatre Gossip threads will be restricted to the ABOMINATION OF TWO GENTLEMEN OF VERONA BEATING OUT FOLLIES FOR BEST MUSICAL AT THE 1972 TONYS.

Any disagreement should be addressed to r82.

You're all losing your minds.

"is that a bad thing for a show to do?:

Yes. Brice, for all her clowning and low-crotch burlesquing, was, in fact, an extremely elegant woman (like Roz, Lucy, et al), as was/is Streisand. Which creates a requisite tension for comedy.

Yes. Historically, women of larger avoirdupois were not uncommon on the vaudeville/burlesque stage (check out some of the "beef trust" choruses in photos).

Yes, because it would be trite, superficial and literal, when there are greater metaphorical and adult aspects of the story to emphasize. Must every frickin' show now be beholden to the consciousness (and pocket book) of a not-very-bright tween?

What is this "Follies" you people are talking about? Is it a musical? Any good? Which would you say was the definitive production?

The Ziegfeld Follies of 1910/1911...with Fanny Brice.

With THIN Fanny Brice.

Let's talk instead of NPH's new Wonderfuck, or whatever he's calling it. Doesn't this queen have to work anymore?

Why doesn't Beanie bring back Sophie? She could be the next Libi Staiger!

Be sure to include "This Could Be the Start of Something Big" in the show this time though!

Joe Papp's production of Two Gentlemen of Verona was sensational. It was wonderfully staged and enormous fun. Any other year it would have been fine to win the Tony just not that one.

Where Harvey is going to come a cropper is in the second half. The first half of Funny Girl is fine. He used up all his talent in the original stage production of Torch Song Trilogy. Since then he's been riding on the fumes of that success.

You got it, r101!

Oops...

This Ain't no Beanie Baby! Is it bigger than a Buddy?

I just read an article on Steve Allen. I had no idea that he was a huge asshole and an egomaniac. Also a horn dog who had a scandal when Jayne Meadows walked in on him fucking his female assistant. Apparently when his passion project, a musical called Sophie about Sophie Tucker, opened on Broadway and bombed big, no one was sad (I know there’s an episode of the Judy Garland Show where she and Steve sing several songs from Sophie, and none of them is very good

Steve Allen was a prolific songwriter, but not a very good one. I remember the score he did for that 1980s television musical of "Alice in Wonderland" was pretty dreadful.

[quote]Apparently when his passion project, a musical called Sophie about Sophie Tucker, opened on Broadway and bombed big, no one was sad.

It closed five days after it opened in 1963. Steve Allen must have been especially bitter when a musical about another olde-tyme singer, comedian and radio personality opened less than a year later and was a big hit.

Frank Sinatra hated Allen's fucking guts, frequently trashing him in public and during his concerts.

Libi Staiger (Sophie) played Susan Johnson's part in the London Most Happy Fella. I don't remember this...

[quote] It closed five days after it opened in 1963. Steve Allen must have been especially bitter when a musical about another olde-tyme singer, comedian and radio personality opened less than a year later and was a big hit.

At the same theatre, no less.

Beanie is so zaftig nobody has seen her clit in years.

And yet. And yet we've all seen yours r112.

Bitchy Theater Queens on DL: "Ugh! Too many posts about Folllies! And, Sondheim! And, old shows! Can't we talk about current/upcoming B'way shows?"

Topic switches to talk about an upcoming Bway Show.

Bitchy Theater Queens on DL: "Ugh! Too many posts about this upcoming B'way show! Can't we talk about something else...like the penis sizes of various B'way chorus boys?'

Why did Sinatra hate Steve Allen?

Everybody hated Steve Allen. Did you ever see his show? Never has an ego the size of South America been tied to so little talent. He wrote a thousand songs and every single one was shit.

Steve Allen was a far bigger presence in 1950s show biz than a lot of younger DLers might realize. Besides his song writing, Steve created and hosted The Tonight Show, which introduced regulars Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme, among other young performers, to America and then moved on to a Sunday prime time TV show that rivalled Ed Sullivan's.

Many considered Steve's Sunday show superior because It was more of a genuine variety hour rather than Ed's model, which simply introduced a line up of highly variable (and often questionable) acts that never interacted with each other. Steve's show had a small rep company of young, then unknown comedians performing in weekly skits that included Don Knotts, Louis Nye and Tom Poston, all of whom introduced comic bits with catch phrases that were quoted for years. Like most TV comedy it probably hasn't aged well but was beloved and lauded throughout the decade.

And Steve appeared as a panelist on What's My Line? where he replaced comedian Fred Allen and famously invented the question "Is it bigger than a bread box?"

Looked at today, probably none of Steve's achievements seem very impressive, but in the 1950s he was definitely considered one of the most influential shapers and influencers of American entertainment.

Didn't Steve write the song "This Could Be the Start of Something Big" introduced by Steve and Eydie on the original Tonight Show hosted by Steve? So he wrote at least one song that wasn't shit.

Steve Allen personified the saying “jack of all trades, master of none.”

Steve Allen was the first host of The Tonight Show but it was created by legendary NBC exec Pat Weaver (Sigourney's father). He also created The Today Show and had a big hit with The Home Show, dedicated to frauen and hosted by the ever lovely Arlene Francis. It came on after Today. It's amazing that both Tonight and Today are still on the air after all these decades.

Allen was bi. He kept a small studio pied-à-terre in midtown that Jayne didn't know about to take his tricks. He picked up one guy I knew at a matinee of How to Succeed and another at a straight bar.

[quote] He picked up one guy I knew at a matinee of How to Succeed and another at a straight bar.

How do you know such things r120?

I said how I know in the sentence you omitted. I knew the people involved.

^ I apologize. You didn't omit anything. I misread.

Steve wore a really bad hairpiece.

Steve seemed well-liked in later "Match Game" appearances. He did seem to always want to have "This Could Be the Start of Something Big" played when he could, since though he wrote many songs apparently, that was the only one that got any sort of traction. Steve and Eydie, who he gave their big break, used to sing it quite a bit.

That thing he wrote for PBS with his mediocrity of a wife playing Cleopatra was hideously bad.

Years ago, I heard this exchange between two comics:

"Steve Allen has written over 600 songs!"

"Name two!"

r117 is right. His show included many jazz and pop singers who were rarely on TV.

I wasn't around in the 50's but he was a presence even for a few decades after that and I never could stand him. Thank you for letting me know of his important influence on TV in that decade. I hadn't realized. But I always found him obnoxious and This Could Be the Start of Something Big always sounded like a sleazy Vegas lounge act song from an era that was long gone. Just like Steve and Edie's act.

Edie on her own however was a wonderful talent.

Eydie was seriously considered for Funny Girl after Martin and Crawford dropped out but she insisted Steve play Nick and nobody thought he was right for the part. I've wondered if they ever did the part in stock.

^ Bancroft, not Crawford! How did I write that? Excuse me, I need more coffee.

Honestly, Steve could have played Nicky. It’s not like the role requires an actor with great range. Maybe producers didn’t want him because they were afraid it would turn into the Steve and Edie show.

Steve and Edie released an album of Steve Allen tunes. My grandparents had it.

Steve looked more like the real Nicky Arnstein, too. Plus he could act, too. He went on to star in the musical "What Makes Sammy Run?" which was on Broadway at the same time as "Funny Girl", getting very good reviews, too.

Without further ado....

Edie was married to Ernie, r129.

It's Steve and EYDIE, guys, not Edie.

No, it's EADIE!

Golden Rainbow I believe was the show William Goldman called Washing Garbage. Now I know why.

Eydie was never officially offered FUNNY GIRL. Her name was merely bandied about for a brief time before Streisand came on the scene and then there was no doubt who would play Fanny.

Didn’t Cameron Mackintosh produce a musical version of Moby Dick? Couldn’t Beanie do the title role in that instead of ruining Funny Girl?

No one said the part was offered, just that she was considered, which is easily googled.

The wonderful Sharon Brown is Sharon D. Clarke’s standby in Caroline or Change. If Clarke ever takes a night off I’ll be there.

There *was* some doubt, r140.

Someone posted the version of “This Could Be the Start …” from the Dinah Shore show. That’s what started this whole Steve Allen thing. I’m suspicious of the report that Allen was bu. He was famous as a womanizer, and for pushing the women he fucked into projects where they weren’t wanted. There’s never been a hint of him fucking men except for the report above.

Read any history of The Tonight Show - you’ll see that, as noted, Pat Weaver came up with the concept, and Jack Paar was responsible for refining the idea into the modern talk show. Paar and Johnny Carson hated Steve. He never appeared on the show again till Jay Leno took over.

Eydie couldn't act for shit. She would never have gotten past the first table read.

But their recoding of "This Could Be . . . " is a golden age classic.

And someone else made an album of Steve Allen songs: DL and FOLLIES fave Dorothy Collins.

Steve Lawrence appeared on the Carol Burnett show in '71 or '72 and sang Losing My Mind.

Aaaaaaand we’re thankfully back to FOLLIES.

Steve Lawrence’s nephew looks a lot like him. He lives in Manhattan Plaza and I gather he lived there under the proper regulations unlike that now deceased former Follies revival star.

Yes, I’ve linked Follies and the MP scandal. Just doing the Lord’s work here on DL.

Eydie was very funny acting in skits on "Carol Burnett Show". Whoever coached Barbra would have coached Eydie had she been hired for "Funny Girl". Eydie would have sung the score terrifically.

Besides Dorothy Collins, albums of Steve Allen songs were recorded by Andy Williams, Frankie Randall, and Ann Jillian. There is also a compilation album of his songs sung by top vocalists of the day.

So now we have a Steve Allen Troll, trying to whitewash the asshole’s reputation.

Never heard of a negative reputation until this thread.

Perhaps that person was scratched from performing on the show because another person went over time, was never rescheduled, and he's never forgiven Allen since.

Steve probably hit him in the head with a fondue pot.

Are we sure it was Steve Allen who was the Bi Tonight Show show and NOT Jack Paar? Who by all accounts was a obsessive homophobe and very fey himself.

Good Christ, *Tonight Show host and AN obsessive homophone. Need more coffee.

A fondue pot? Is it bigger than a breadbox?

Love Cycle: A Soap Operetta

1950s TV was riddled with beloved celebrities who mostly had no discernible talent except for being their charming selves in a new media that was often live and in person and encouraged spontaneous and witty conversation.

You can add Arthur Godfrey, Garry Moore, Fay Emerson, Hugh Downs, Virginia Graham, Dave Garroway, Bess Myerson, Henry Morgan, Bert Parks, Kitty Carlisle, Durward Kirby, Dagmar, Robert Q. Lewis and DL Fave Arlene Francis to the list of early TV Icons with Jack Paar and Steve Allen (and throw in Steve's charming wife Jayne Meadows for good measure).

WILD

The Steve Allen scoop. He was also a big LSD junkie.

[quote]He was also a big LSD junkie.

I'm liking him more and more.

Tonight on That Girl:

*

Ann's play gets scathing reviews---including one signed by Don. Ann: Marlo Thomas. Don: Ted Bessell. Pete: Ruth Buzzi. Jerry: Bernie Kopell. Father: Lew Parker.

Miss Loudon

[quote] The wonderful Sharon Brown is Sharon D. Clarke’s standby in Caroline or Change. If Clarke ever takes a night off I’ll be there.

Oh wow, that's a name I haven't seen in ages. Sharon Brown was the Narrator in the pre-Broadway tryout of Dreamcoat that played at the Theatre of Performing Arts in Miami. It was the first musical production I ever saw. I was 10, and I loved it and her. Not sure why she didn't come to Broadway with it (they replaced her with Laurie Beechman) but once Beechman left, Brown took over the role.

When I moved to NYC 6 years later, the touring production of Dreamgirls had made a stop on Broadway and was just ending its run. I didn't want to go see a bunch of nobodies so I was going to skip it even though I was dying to see the show, and I found out Sharon Brown was playing Effie so I went.

I second your excitement, R143. I would definitely go see Sharon in anything.

[quote]It's amazing that both Tonight and Today are still on the air after all these decades.

But "Tomorrow" is history.

Tom Snyder is history, too, r167.

For chrissakes, r168, bringing up history just brings us back to Steve fuckin' Allen!

[quote] But "Tomorrow" is history.

Not where YouTube is concerned.

Oh why not...

Spring Awakening seems a weird choice for a fuzzy, warm Christmas show?

I can never get passed the singing washing machine and bus and moon in the too-precious-and-pretentious-by-half Caroline or Change.

Then be sure not to see Richard Strauss's Die Frau Ohne Schatten, r173. Although you miss page after page after page of glorious music, you will not have to endure a chorus of unborn children, a singing falcon and singing fish as they jump into a flying pan.

[quote]I can never get passed

Oh, dear.

Strauss>Tesnori

Frying pan, not flying pan. Whatever.

There is nothing wrong with the singing of unborn children(they would be most interesting in an opera about abortion rights. You know like the ending of Dialogues of the Carmelites) or a singing falcon.

It's the singing of the frying fish that is truly one of the biggest WTF moments in all of opera.

How about singing for unborn children that might have made me complete?

[quote] It's the singing of the frying fish that is truly one of the biggest WTF moments in all of opera.

It is a WTF moment. One more reason to love the show.

And then there's Strauss's Die ägyptische Helena, The Egyptian Helen, with the singing seashell. Every generation thinks it invented weird and discovered sex.

"glorious music"

And therein lies the BIG difference between Die Frau Ohne Schatten and COC.

What do unborn children or abortion rights have to do with the Dialogues of the Carmelites?

r160, why did you exclude me??

Mrs. Gabel, check my post again. You're not only included but highlighted as a DL Fave.

[quote] the too-precious-and-pretentious-b - y-half Caroline or Change

huh, r173?

R182 it was a joke. If you are not familiar of the ending of Dialogues you can't consider yourself an opera lover. Maybe you don't.

I know my opera, dearest, better than you know your "comedy."

[quote]1950s TV was riddled with beloved celebrities who mostly had no discernible talent except for being their charming selves in a new media that was often live and in person and encouraged spontaneous and witty conversation. You can add Arthur Godfrey, Garry Moore, Fay Emerson, Hugh Downs, Virginia Graham, Dave Garroway, Bess Myerson, Henry Morgan, Bert Parks, Kitty Carlisle, Durward Kirby, Dagmar, Robert Q. Lewis and DL Fave Arlene Francis to the list of early TV Icons with Jack Paar and Steve Allen (and throw in Steve's charming wife Jayne Meadows for good measure).

Kitty Carlisle was a singer who co-stars with the Marx Brothers in "A Night at the Opera." Arlene Francis, of course, appeared regularly in the legitimate theater.

r180, so sorry to have missed my own name! I must have been lost in the memory of that happy night when the lovely Dorothy was murd---er, passed away.

[quote]The Egyptian Helen

Hey, the only Egyptian I know is Max Factor's Light Egyptian. Borrowed some from that colored gal Lena Horne once.

[quote]Golden Rainbow I believe was the show William Goldman called Washing Garbage. Now I know why.

The opening number, linked to above, was intentionally cheesy, perhaps a bit too much so. But there are some really good songs in GOLDEN RAINBOW. Give the cast album a listen sometime.

Thousands of posts about Steve Allen and Strauss. Worst Theatre Thread Ever Competition, I think we have a winner.

Meanwhile, Tony LOSER JOH now calls himself “Variety Screenwriter to Watch Jeremy O. Harris.”

insufferable adjective in·​suf·​fer·​able | (ˌ)in-ˈsə-f(ə-)rə-bəl Definition of insufferable : not to be endured : INTOLERABLE

Kitty was a special kind of NY royalty which no longer exists. She was featured in one of the greatest film comedies ever made and continued performing on stage and on TV throughout her life. She had a warm classy style which is gone for good. And of course she was married to the legendary Moss Hart.

Arlene Francis not only appeared on stage and TV and radio she was in such films as One Two Three and The Thrill of It All. Another like Carlisle of which the species is extinct.

Clitty Carlisle Hart chased away all the boys and shut down Moss’ outré swimming parties…

Yes, R191, the GOLDEN RAINBOW cast album is fun but the show wasn't good.

Gooch pooch hootch mooch

[quote]Kitty was a special kind of NY royalty which no longer exists. She was featured in one of the greatest film comedies ever made and continued performing on stage and on TV throughout her life. She had a warm classy style which is gone for good. And of course she was married to the legendary Moss Hart.

I agree completely, but you left out the fact that Kitty was chair of the New York State Council on the Arts for 20 years.

[quote] Meanwhile, Tony LOSER JOH now calls himself “Variety Screenwriter to Watch Jeremy O. Harris.” insufferable adjective in·​suf·​fer·​able | (ˌ)in-ˈsə-f(ə-)rə-bəl Definition of insufferable : not to be endured : INTOLERABLE

And yet someone (not you) was bitching about the title of the previous thread.

I was a fan of that title r198, and his new Twitter handle confirms its accuracy. Whatever good he may be doing is undermined by his self-absorption, which seems to run way deeper than his writing.

Someone always bitches about the title, and yet funnily enough they never provide their own suggestion for what the title should've been.

I know. I usually bitch about the title because I feel like it's a DL tradition, even if I don't feel too blech towards it (though I do praise the good ones). And I start threads on here from time to time, so even if I mock protest, I don't care if someone rags my titles. If you give, you have to take.

Oh, why not...?

While it's true that Arlene and Kitty both virtually worked until the day they died, as a child growing up seeing them on game shows and talk shows in the 1950s/60s, I'd ask my parents why they were famous and would be looked at with blank stares. In our household they were very much the definition of "famous for being famous" not unlike the great Zsa Zsa Gabor.

Both of them had much stronger resumes than Zsa Zsa, r203.

But I'd venture to say that beyond What's My Line? and To Tell the Truth, most Americans had no idea what else Kitty and Arlene did.

WHOA!!! That Tattinger's clip was just getting going when it got cut off. Who was the hot nude guy at the end?

Kitty Carlisle Hart story from the old **OFFICIAL** SUMMER STOCK THEATER MEMORIES thread:

-Kitty Carlisle Hart-

Star Stock had its stable of real professionals – folks who respected the media, gave 100% every performance, and were genuinely nice. Kitty Carlisle Hart was one of those pros.

She played the Falmouth Playhouse in a production of the musical YOU NEVER KNOW with songs by Cole Porter. Playing opposite Joe Masiell (another pro), Miss Carlisle warmed the stage with elegance, poise, and a trained operatic voice. While she was way past her vocal prime, she prepared for each performance with a warm-up worthy of a Metropolitan Opera diva. I remember well her vocal exercises as I walked down the dressing room hallway.

I had an interesting experience at the beginning of that week. It was an extremely hot and humid day when the company arrived at the theater. After a brief tour, we dispatched all the performers to their quarters. Miss Carlisle was staying in a suite at Clausons Inn, the golf course hotel. All of the luggage for the company was arriving in a separate van, and we typically distributed it once it arrived. Today the van was late.

So later, when then the van finally showed up, I was given the job of getting Miss Carlisle’s luggage to the Inn. I was thrilled to do this, and a bit surprised to see that her classic luggage include a dresser trunk and other pieces more appropriate for an ocean crossing. She was a real Cole Porter heroine! Along with two apprentices, we drove to the Inn and carried the trunks up to the second floor. I knocked on the door.

It took a while for Miss Carlisle to answer. Through the door, she asked who it was, and I told her we were from the Playhouse and had her luggage. She explained that because of the heat, she had just taken a shower, and asked that we move the pieces into the center of the room. “Don’t peek!” she said like a little school girl.

She opened the door, and stood behind it to hide herself. Her hair was wrapped in a big towel, and she apparently had wrapped herself in a plush Turkish towel as a bath robe. She was wonderfully animated, and directed us as best she could about where to put the various pieces. We finished quickly, and eyes to the floor, we started to leave.

I was the first to exit, and since I was the de facto leader, she extended her hand to me from behind the door and said “Thank you all so much! I eagerly shook it. That’s when it happened. Like a Billy Wilder movie without the music, her towel fell to the ground! For one brief moment (along with two adolescent apprentices) I got to see a naked, 65 year old Kitty Carlisle Hart.

Of course, I immediately turned away, but I can tell you (from my gay perspective) that she looked great for her age. She was not embarrassed at all – she laughed and said something like “I bet you’ll never forget that.” We scooted out of the room, and once we were back in the van, we compared notes. They had all seen what I saw. And she was right. I’ve never forgotten.

Arlene’s major fame, outside of her TV gigs, was on Broadway. She didn’t tour, so most of the US really only knew her for TV.

She had a 40 year career in radio, r208.

OMG, r207! Two different people in the late 80s told me that Kitty was a nudist, and that delivery boys were always getting an eyeful!

KITTY’S CLITTY A New Musical

(But NOT on view to Moss…)

Arlene kept herself incredibly busy and in addition to her daily radio career and her frequent Broadway shows and occasional films, she was omnipresent on TV. As I mentioned on another thread, Pat Weaver at NBC, Sigourney's father, created both the Tonight and Today shows, but he also created The Home Show, which ran for years on NBC in the slot following Today. It was intended for the frauen and guess who it starred. Arlene.

I'm so old I remember Arlene not only from her appearances on What's My Line but as a host on NBC's legendary radio news show Monitor.

Kitty, by the way, was a classically trained operatic mezzo soprano and starred as Count/Prince Orloff in Die Fledermaus in a major revival at The Metropolitan Opera for which there was major press coverage. A trouser role. She also starred in a well known series of operetta recordings in the 40s and 50s for Decca as well as several operettas on Broadway. Operetta was still a pretty big thing back then.

The thing about her heading the New York Council of the Arts for 20 years was that it was given a huge amount to distribute in grants and the decisions were basically hers. You can't imagine how heavily courted she was.

I was able to see her live when she replaced Dina Merrill in that famous and wonderful 1983 revival of On Your Toes, otherwise with the revival's original cast. The part was that of an aging patroness of the arts. Of course she was perfect for it, still had some voice, and was gracious and lovely

How soon we forget.

Those types of celebrities served a function in that era...they were a staple of game and quiz shows and talk shows and variety shows. We don't really have those kinds of shows anymore, at least in those forms.

And, even beloved stars like Betty White fit in that "what are they famous for?" category. Before Sue Anne Nivens came along, Betty White was best known as that perky lady on Password.

To many, Charles Nelson Reilly was just that funny queen on Match Game but of course, to those in the know, he was a Tony Award winning actor, theater director and acting teacher.

Nowadays, we have a whole different class of non-celebrity....it's all the moron "influencers" who are stars on Tik Tok and Instagram for doing...nothing.

Carlisle wasn't a mezzo; she was a soprano. Those Decca operetta sets are all sung in keys a mezzo would find cumbersome.

For some reason--probably a strong lower octave--she made a specialty of Prince Orlofsky throughout her career. She made her Broadway debut in the part, when she was twenty-three. But she generally sang soprano, and even throws in the high C during the Miserere from Il Trovatore in A Night at the Opera.

Sorry--I left out "interpolated." That high C isn't in the score and is frowned upon by purists, unlike the interpolated high note for the tenor at the end of Di Quella Pira.

I think Montserrat CFaballe also put in that high C, though not at the Met.

Caballe. My bad.

A performer was crushed to death by the scenery at the Bolshoi Theater during a set change at a performance of Rimsky-Korsakov's Sadko by the Bolshoi Opera.

^ In front of the audience yet. Awful.

Now you people know the importance of what I meant when I kept saying "But I'm in tech!" in that phone call on Smash. Those tech rehearsals are important! You don't dare miss your mark!

In the early 70's, we saw the Met do Die Fledermaus in Prospect Park, with Kitty as MC and playing her role of Prince Orloff. At that time, I only knew her as a (sort of tacky) game show person on TO TELL THE TRUTH, and we thought it was funny that she was going to sing with the Met (at her advanced age to boot!) Well, we were floored! She was great. I did also see her in ON YOUR TOES, but I felt she really wasn't right for the song. It's a part that Stritch had done in the 50's and should be sung by a belter. Otherwise she was fine.

Kitty on TTTT always seemed gracious, sweet, a bit dim and an incredible snob. There were times when she seemed to appall the other panelists with her sense of privilege—but in the nicest possible way.

Yes, I always sensed a tension between Kitty and Peggy Cass on TTTT. But over the years I've only read the most complimentary stuff about both ladies so perhaps that "tension" was just simply the vast difference between their TV personas and not real, one in her couture gown and feather boa and the other in her working girl sweater set..

The CHICKEN & BISCUIT reviews are in and they're mostly rather "qualified" raves, but certainly with enough exultant pull quotes to give the impression of a big hit.

Interesting that we have one post mentioning Prince Orloff followed by a post mentioning Sue Ann Nivens.

[quote] Yes, I always sensed a tension between Kitty and Peggy Cass on TTTT.

I think that was part of the reason they were cast.

Kitty Carlisle (even the name is stylish) - Park Avenue doyenne, finishing school, oozed “class” from every pore.

Peggy Cass (sounds like a fat girl name) - Queens accent, grating voice, probable dyke

Both played their roles perfectly.

[quote] The CHICKEN & BISCUIT reviews are in and they're mostly rather "qualified" raves, but certainly with enough exultant pull quotes to give the impression of a big hit.

We got unqualified raves!

I have been occasionally floored by Cass’s wealth of knowledge , especially catching contestants in geographical inaccuracies. Kitty was such an old school NY society grand dame but also exhibited warmth , class but also a different type of toughness which I think both ladies possessed but which came across very differently. Kitty often seem very traditional in her responses, especially to more emancipated women in the 70s. I only saw her once as part of a panel at the Kennedy Center which included Debbie Reynolds and Carol Channing, hosted by Dick Cavett. It was fascinating. Carol exhibited a certain irreverence , Debbie a bit of defensiveness and Kitty held no prisoners ( specifically when discussing Garland’s bathroom cabinet raids at parties).. Channing blurted out that Minnelli was a crack baby in response to Carlisle’s hysterical story about Judy saying she could not use the downstairs bathroom only to fine after allowing her upstairs the medicine cabinet has been raided… The audience was mostly staring at the panel in stunned silence. I, of course, was howling

The Chicken & Biscuit reviews are far from "raves", qualified or not. I'd say mostly negative. Bye!

Peggy's Miss Hannigan...

[quote]Peggy Cass (sounds like a fat girl name) - Queens accent, grating voice

Peggy was from Boston and had a Boston accent.

Kitty = pussy....Just saying...

Kitty used to personally pay to have all those tulips planted in the Spring in the flowerbeds on Park Avenue, so she always had a view of them when she looked out her window.

I also once had a fling with someone in her office at the Council Of The Arts, and mentioned him to her after one of her performances at the Cape Playhouse. "Oh, I do miss him, the poor dear. Were you sleeping with him, too?", she not-so-innocently queried.

[quote] Peggy was from Boston and had a Boston accent.

My apologies, you are correct. I knew it was one of those annoying accents.

[quote] Kitty = pussy....Just saying...

Kitty can also mean a collection of money.

I was coming on here to say that the Chicken n Biscuits reviews were mostly terrible, except for the New Woke Times. Jesse Green strained to write a good review even though you could tell he was lying through his bad teeth. Even Deadline couldn't muster a good review, and that guy they replaced Jeremy Gerard with is a hack extraordinaire.

You are right about Deadline’s Greg Evans being a hack. He’s been around for years scribbling for Variety and other trades and has never moved up and never has anything interesting to say. Plus even though I don’t believe black shows necessarily have to be reviewed by black critics, his Deadline review of C&B really sounds like a witless write up from a clueless closeted white junior working for a Westport high school newspaper.

Isherwood gave it a good review. But what's funny is that most of the reviews have headlines which make you think you're going to read a rave, and then they go on to say it's not very good (albeit in the most apologetic way).

I thought Broadway traditional family sitcoms died out decades ago. It's comforting to know they're still around.

This is a play that had no business anywhere other than the chitlin circuit.

Kitty Carlisle, by the way, was born and raised in New Orleans, I believe. Her ambitiou mama had big dreams of an opera career for her girl.

She's pretty honest about her mother parading her around when young trying to find her a rich husband even in Europe. Even that takes money so there must have been some in the family. And then to have all that money pouring in from the Kaufman and Hart plays and the big musicals Hart worked on. The only thing she was not honest about was Hart's homosexuality.

Where...

I think I've read that the mother believed that Kitty could make a more advantageous marriage in Europe, where there was less resistance to marrying a Jew.

I don't think I'd fault Kitty too much for being dishonest about Hart's sexuality, since he was dishonest about it himself.

Covid filming is funny. In Lee Mack’s “Not Going Out” there is a scene involving his three children. The camera shows them standing next to each other, then changes angles and you can see one of the children is missing.

^^Oops, that comment was for another thread.

Two things about that fabulous clip of Kitty at r242:

1) That song "Where Do They Come From..." could easily have been the basis for FOLLIES' "Beautiful Girls". Did Sondheim ever mention it as a source for his pastiche?

2) Kitty truly never changed her look over a 60+ year career. That dark brunette bob did very well for her.

That song seems to owe a little something to "The Dimple on Your Knee" from Of Thee I Sing.

She was a wonder, no doubt about it.

Just trying to keep up about Caroline or Change. Why is the story of an African American woman written by white people okay now?

I don't usually complain about the topics people discuss on this thread, but FUCKING HELL! Who gives a good goddamn about Kitty FUCKING Carlisle???

Miss Shutta...

Now, now, r249...think of your blood pressure.

r248 because it was slated to open before the racial/gender purity tests were implemented.

It's also about a Jewish family and the Black maid and her family, so who's qualified to write it? Have a Jew write one half, and a Black write the other? Everything is so screwed up.

Oh, Kitty did not acknowledge being a Jew during her husband-hunting years. That's why her mother changed their last name from "Conn" to Carlisle. Also, when it looked like Kitty might have a Hollywood career - she was a beautiful woman who didn't "read" Jewish. But once Kitty had landed fellow Jew Moss Hart, she didn't care who knew what about her.

I met Kitty at a reception in late 80s. She could not have been nicer, and spoke to me for around 20 minutes or so, even though I was a social nobody (but I knew a lot about theatre and the arts).

R233 I love the Bostonian accent. I think it sounds charming. I love it when Chris Evans slips into his, from time to time. It is more evident when he was younger and just starting out.

R253 hence, the problem with identity politics. Like Communism, it does not work in practice.

Moss Hart thought Kitty would be a great match for him socially and really liked if not loved her and so proposed. She well knew his reputation for being bi if not gay and but made him promise that he would be straight and faithful. He promised and she accepted. Remember that this was back in the era when most people still thought sexuality was a choice.

Of course he kept having secret male boyfriends and gay adventures. She learned about it and it hurt her very much. But he was kind and attentive and generous, in attention to being brilliantly talented, and and she decided she liked having a famous, rich, generous husband who made her a doyenne of New York high society. She kind of learned to live with the publicly unspoken parts of their marriage.

When you read the contemporary autobiographies and biographies of these people, you have have to know how to read between the lines.

I want to hear about Moss Hart’s gay adventures!

It wasn’t the boys that Kitty minded, it was always having to do the levitation trick at every single party that really set her teeth on edge.

[quote] I want to hear about Moss Hart’s gay adventures!

One of the shows Moss directed was Camelot which included Richard Burton, Robert Goulet, Roddy McDowell and John Cullum. Moss sure had his pick of handsome men to dally with if he chose to.

Roddy sounds like the only one possibly dally-ready.

Besides which, Moss gave her a son and a daughter and I've no doubt after that, she was content and done with their conjugal bed.

So Kitty; Phyllis, Hattie or Carlotta?

Ethel Shutta’s last name was pronounced “Shuh-TAY,” correct?

Kitty and Moss were only married for 15 years before he died so she didn’t suffer that much.

And she never remarried so clearly she didn't need a man in her life, sexual or otherwise. For decades.

R267. some people do have sex outside of marriage.

Kitty didn’t need a man. She had Peggy Cass to do a deep dive.

Who knew, I really need a Kitty Carlisle Hart limited series ASAP! Who should star?

Did Kitty patronized the better nudist colonies?

R270 Beanie, of course!

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 1984, "Ma Rainey's Black Bottom" opened at the Cort Theatre.

[quote] clearly she didn't need a man in her life, sexual or otherwise.

Don’t kid yourself. She had plenty of male sex partners. She just didn’t need them for romance.

She apparently used to brag about bagging George Gershwin and dined on that most of her adult life.

[quote] Who knew, I really need a Kitty Carlisle Hart limited series ASAP! Who should star?

British actress Anna Chancellor

Kitty had at least two longish-term companions after Hart's death. I think she did just fine for herself.

[quote]Who knew, I really need a Kitty Carlisle Hart limited series ASAP! Who should star?

Cynthia Erivo, of course.

"Why is the story of an African American woman written by white people okay now?"

COC may be a dreary show but any author can write about anything they choose. Our culture would be (to quote author John Logan) "anemic," otherwise. We're not living in Soviet Russia (yet) where everything must meet the approval of the politburo (regardless of what SJW's think). You don't like the fact? Don't see it.

COC is a memory play based on his lived experience, just like it wasn’t necessary for him to be HIV Positive or have AIDS to write Angels, it should be fine for him to do that show as well.

R280 To overwrite....

It took Ben Brantley 15 years to finally admit "Caroline" was a masterpiece and he was wrong in his original review. Tony Kushner was very happy. He'd already realized how talented Tesori is with "Fun Home."

[quote]It took Ben Brantley 15 years to finally admit "Caroline" was a masterpiece and he was wrong in his original review.

Why does that sound like he was strong-armed into revising his original critique?

John Simon came around on FOLLIES...

While I absolutely agree that any writer should be allowed to write about whatever they want, I fear many talented young writers are already feeling limited and discouraged about this issue.

This is a horrible time for the arts on so many levels. I think it will become even more apparent by next year.

Frank Rich finally admitted how awful Madonna was in Speed The Plow.

R286 what made him change his mind after 30+ years?

Oh, my sides, r282!

How much longer until the riff-raff (the "No! I won't let you!" crowd) are once again the minorities in show business?

We're only getting started, r289!

Keep telling yourself that, r290. The majority are absolutely sick of your insanity.

After watching this, I had zero interest in Caroline or Change. The score sounds like a Mack truck crashing down the Interstate.

[quote]It's also about a Jewish family and the Black maid and her family, so who's qualified to write it? Have a Jew write one half, and a Black write the other? Everything is so screwed up.

I had a similar reaction when, some time ago, a few assholes went after Lynn Ahrens after she made a comment about the racial content in RAGTIME, on the grounds that, as a white woman, she shouldn't have co-written the show in the first place. I thought, "Well, considering that the show is mostly about three families from three distinct ethnic groups, are you saying it would only be acceptable if it were co-written by a WASP, a black person, and a Jew from Latvia?

[quote]How much longer until the riff-raff (the "No! I won't let you!" crowd) are once again the minorities in show business?

I predict that by mid-decade many whites (who are the majority in this country) will have shifted right, politically -- or at least toward the center, because of the radical left's insanity, including their utter and public hatred for white people, particularly white Americans.

[quote]So Kitty; Phyllis, Hattie or Carlotta?

Heidi, of course.

Lynn Ahrens seems like a very nice lady but also something of a dumbbell,

r293, are you saying that Lynn Ahrens made the comment or the assholes that went after her made the comment? The wording in your post is a bit confusing.

R297, I apologize. To clarify: About a year ago or so, Lynn Ahrens made a comment about the racial content in RAGTIME. Something about how, when the show was first produced, she felt like it showed how far America has come in terms of racism, but now, it feels like it points up how far we still have to go. In response to what she said, the assholes in question started shrieking that Lynn, as a white woman, should never have written (or co-written) the show in the first place.

[quote]I predict that by mid-decade many whites (who are the majority in this country) will have shifted right, politically -- or at least toward the center, because of the radical left's insanity, including their utter and public hatred for white people, particularly white Americans.

I really, really HATE to say this, but I fear you are right. A friend and I were discussing this just last night. We both agree with you, and I should mention that my friend has been heavily involved in liberal politics since the days of Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr.

By mid-decade most baby boomers, myself included, will be well into their 60s and even 70s and far grouchier and far less patient about a lot of things. I'm already that way.

Sorry, Matt, the “far left’s insanity” is far easier to take than the right’s utter evil. Nothing, but nothing, will make me head right or even Center, and I’m almost 60.

[quote]Sorry, Matt, the “far left’s insanity” is far easier to take than the right’s utter evil.

I agree with that as far as it goes, but many people honestly feel that the insanity of too many people on the far left is tremendously damaging to the cause.

Any more dirt on what went down with the cast of THE VISITOR at The Public?

The alternate ending...

That was never the ending. That's Audrey Hepburn's real voice on that, too, instead of Marni Nixon's. I call BS.

r303 what happened? Another example of triggered actors holding a production hostage lest the producers open themselves up to being labeled "racist"?

Maybe they should change the title to THE FUCKING VISIT(OR)

It was ugly, ugly, UGLY on The Visitor. And everyone has signed NDAs...That ugly.

I can’t believe someone is trying to fake people into thinking that was the original ending of the Fair Lady film. It completely drops “I’ve Grown Accustomed to Her Face,” one of the biggest hits in the show and of the 1950s. They never would have done that.

Stupid prank.

[quote] It was ugly, ugly, UGLY on The Visitor. And everyone has signed NDAs...That ugly.

How very Trumpian, Oskar.

Boy oh boy, you can't pull the wool over the eyes of r305 and r309!

What exactly happened on The Visitor?

Cast members insisted another cast member be fired because of....the color of their skin. Seriously.

Broadway Ready To Pull The Plug On "Aladdin" If Ticket Sales Don't Increase, plus January and February could see 15-20 Broadway shows shutting down for good:

Hasn't ALADDIN run long enough? Must everything run for 10-15 years now?

By the way, where is Irene Ryan’s Tony Award now?

r313 did the producers cave to the demand?

[quote]By the way, where is Irene Ryan’s Tony Award now?

She hid it in her brassiere, Rose.

R316 Irene Ryan did win the Tony that year. I think it was Patricia Elliott in "A Little Night Music" instead who won.

Tonys '99

That's correct, r319. Elliot nosed out her ALNM costar Hermione Gingold, as well. I think Irene was dead by the time of the ceremony....not that it ultimately mattered, not even to dear Irene.

Yes, sorry for the typo, but you got my meaning anyway that Irene Ryan did NOT win the Tony that year. Patsy Kelly was also up for "Irene' but I think she had won a year or two prior for "No, No, Nanette".

Move over, Rockettes!

"The score sounds like a Mack truck crashing down the Interstate."

Why take it out on a poor Mack truck?

"saying the slow months of January and February could see 15-20 Broadway shows shutting down for good."

That sounds more serious than it is. Let's see ... Trouble In Mind, Slave Play, Freestyle Love Supreme, Chicken and Biscuits, Waitress, Clyde's, Is This a Room/Dana H., The Lehman Trilogy, Caroline, or Change and Flying Over Sunset are already slated to close in January-February. That's 10 productions right there. Okay, so we lose Aladdin. And most likely Jagged Little Pill, what with the backstage craziness. That leaves at least three more ... Diana, To Kill a Mockingbird and, I dunno, Dear Evan Hansen?

That's silly but fabulous, r323. Thanks!

Phantom

Is Phantom finally in a position to be put out of its misery?

maybe ALW would authorize a nude version of "Phantom" to keep it running?

Phantom ain't going anywhere

At least "Phantom" runs sales during the wintertime usually at relative reasonable prices for people to see it. I'll give them that.

Which cast member of The Visitor was considered racially unacceptable to the cast?

I preferred Nana Visitor

Nana!

A production of “Smokey Joe’s Cafe” was canceled on Long Island because of a racial slur. Cast member didn’t want to file a police report. Hoax or reality?

If Dear Evan Hansen closes, I’m going to send a fruit bouquet to the producers of the movie.

R335 it's not that far-fetched to presume this was a "hoax". But I never realized you could have a performance canceled because a stranger upset you on the street. My best friend was working on Ohio and a truckload of rednecks screamed "faggot" at him as he walked to the theater. I guess he should have demanded to only do one show that day.

Aren't faggot and cocksucker bandied about in mob movies like hello and goodbye? Why is that acceptable? Those words have a terrible history of oppression, misery and death behind them as well. Unless you think because gays were able to pass those words are A OK.

I wonder if the assholes shrieking at Lynn Ahrens realized that the characters of Coalhouse Walker and Sarah were created by the very white EL Doctorow?

"Those words have a terrible history of oppression, misery and death behind them as well."

People in the real world employ them. So if you're representing humanity truthfully, those characters use those words. And let's state it for the record for the 1000th time: the values of the characters do not necessarily represent the values of the writers.

Did the cast of The Visitor actually have to sign NDAs about their rehearsals being disrupted??

Well sympathetic characters employ the n word casually as well. So that's ok?

[quote]Why is the story of an African American woman written by white people okay now?

Look, most people here would be in favor of POC having more openings into artistic areas to which they have had less easy access than whites in the past, and even support to develop works to ensure that what eventually goes before the public is the best it can be. Off-Broadway exists as the end-point for this, and then whether you make it to the capitalist bastion that is Broadway depends on whether a producer thinks it will make money. Nobody goes to Hamilton as a pro-diversity measure: they go because it's a sensation.

But the "white people can't write POC" line is as stupid and patronizing as "POC can't write white people". By that line of logic, Doctorow's novel should have been adapted by a minimum of three people of different races, and then how you write the songs where the three groups all clash and merge is anybody's guess. By the same line of logic Sondheim should not have been allowed to write for Japanese characters, even though his target was the West (and he provided work for more Japanese actors than anyone on Broadway ever).

Finally, since most Broadway musicals revolve around a central female character, no musical of this type that was written by a man should be shown nowadays. How dare a [usually] gay man presume to know the mind of a woman?

Gimme a break.

[quote]I can’t believe someone is trying to fake people into thinking that was the original ending of the Fair Lady film.

And I can't believe that even one person fell for it. Wait....on second thought, I CAN believe it, because one of the most interesting things about social media is that they have given us all a much better idea of just how many shockingly stupid, ignorant, and gullible people there are in this world.

[quote]I wonder if the assholes shrieking at Lynn Ahrens realized that the characters of Coalhouse Walker and Sarah were created by the very white EL Doctorow?

I believe some of them brought that up, but it doesn't change their ridiculous feelings, and in fact, it only amplifies them.

Always an ally

Serious question: WSYWAT and others are citing 6-day workweeks and 10-out-of-12s as racist. Here's the language:

[quote] "These are long-standing practices that are seeped in capitalist and white supremacist culture. When these practices are in place, the growing and nurturing of the BIPOC family structure is imperiled. Many BIPOC artists have been forced to make a choice not to have families. For Indigenous artists and other peoples recovering from genocide, these practices are extremely detrimental."

I sincerely don't understand why these practices affect Black and indigenous people more than others. E.g., why have BIPOC artists more likely to be forced by them to choose not to have families? Why are these practices more likely to be detrimental to Indigenous artists?

Please explain.

I can think of nothing worse than to be stuck out of town rehearsing a show and have two days off each week. I say, let's get on with it and get this thing up and running!

Anything I don’t want to do is racist!!!!

I’m an out of work actor and I would work 7 days a week just to be on broadway. If you’re lucky enough to do what you love AND get paid for it then shut the fuck up.

CTG caved and is bringing Slave Play to LA. Aren't we all so lucky!

[Quote] These are long-standing practices that are seeped in capitalist and white supremacist culture.

It's called show-BUSINESS. The clue is in the name. And I'm sorry, but 'recovering from genocide' is such a specious rhetorical sleight of hand.

R349 I agree, 8 shows per week in a musical is cruel. As those who have big roles say they have no life, too tired to meet anyone voice needs to heal and vocalizing twice when matinee and eve perf.

Even Shaw caved for the film of Pygmalion because he knew what audiences wanted at the end and he wanted to make money and he was going to make a lot more money from the film than from the stage.

Also My Fair Lady is much more subtle and ambiguous in its ending than the film of Pygmalion.

[quote]Also My Fair Lady is much more subtle and ambiguous in its ending than the film of Pygmalion.

Why do you say that? The PYGMALION film ends with Eliza returning to Higgins' home, just as in the musical. Wendy Hiller says "I washed my face and hand before I come, I did" with a big smile on her face. Then the seated Higgins turns his back to her and says "Eliza, where the devil are my slippers?" The last shot of the film is the back of Higgins' head, with no follow-up shot of Eliza to show us her reaction. In the stage musical and the movie version, Higgins says his line and then sinks down in his chair while pulling his hat down over his eyes, and the last shot is of him in that position as Eliza takes a couple of steps toward him with an expression on her face that's hard to read. But I definitely would not say that the ending of the movie musical is "much more subtle and ambiguous" than the ending of the non-musical film.

We See You also uses the word "liberation" a lot which is super disrespectful to their enslaved ancestors and creates a shameful false equivalency.

I would love to call them out online but I'd be pilloried.

I had to sense-type this post because while reading this article my eyes rolled out of head, across the floor and under the sofa. Also: Jesus, Gavin, what's up with your hair?

Sounds as if Taylor Trensch is the brains in that relationship.

Taylor Trensch is dating Gavin Creel?

The Rothschilds

Hiller has a big smile on her face at the end. Hepburn's smile of a more accepting nature.

R359 Hal Linden is superb in that clip! Boch and Harnick sure knew how to write musical theater -- a shame they parted ways after doing this show, apparently over the casting of one of the grown-up sons. That's young Robby Benson as the second son with the glasses. Thanks!

I suppose Eliza could be something of a secretary or assistant to Higgins if she stayed in his household. When she leaves, apparently Pickering and Mrs. Pearce said Eliza would remind HIggins of appointments, and do other things in the upkeep of the house. "Eliza would know". I think Higgins is basically afraid of girls though. He's okay bullying them and so forth, but to actually have sex with them reminds him too much of his mother.

I always wondered why in the film Higgins has so many servants if he were just living alone. Did he hire a couple extra when Pickering and Eliza joined him? Honestly did he need more than 3?

[quote]Hal Linden is superb in that clip! Boch and Harnick sure knew how to write musical theater -- a shame they parted ways after doing this show, apparently over the casting of one of the grown-up sons.

I have heard and read that it was over the choice of director.

I heard it was over the casting of Paul Hecht as Nathan Rothschild.

Michael Kidd was the director wasn't he? Why would Linden have a problem with that? He didn't like the guy? The Rothschilds had its moments and was lavish but on the whole it was very dull especially when you were hoping for another Fiddler.

R363 They needed at least four for 4-part harmony, especially especially since Higgins and Pickering could barely sing!

Linden doesn't really figure in it, from what I've read. He was admired in the role and won the Tony.

Only people I've heard who had problems with Michael Kidd are Dolore Gray and her stage mother. Didn't Dolores slap him? Also, Gene Kelly must have been jealous of Michael Kidd because Kelly had Kidd's solo number cut from "It's Always Fair Weather", and it's never turned up after all these years.

Dolores, that is - during the run of "Destry Rides Again". She also didn't like co-star Andy Griffith.

Not talking during a performance is racist and tech is racist and working for more than a few hours a day is racist.

Bastard amber gels are racist.

I had read Dolores kicked Michael in the nuts. It was Dolores's mother who slapped him. But at this point who the hell knows. I believe Donen said the Kidd number was good enough to stay in Fair Weather. Kidd was the only one not to get a solo in the film. Doesn't the number exist as a bonus feature on some DVD? Kidd worked again with Kelly in Hello Dolly. I guess he figured it was a very well paying gig so he was willing to tolerate Gene.

Interesting how the reputation of Dolly has improved over the years. Even Jerry Herman said he grew to like it.

Streisand's singing of her role is terrific.

It's completely lacking in the charm of its source.

Shaw wrote the screenplay for the film of Pygmalion and won an An Academy Award for it. He worked closely with the producer Gabriel Pascal and My Fair Lady is based closely on the screenplay, not the stage play. Pascal secretly wrote and added that final scene where Eliza comes back and says "I washed me 'ands and face before I came, I did." Shaw was furious when he saw the released film with that final scene but his fury abated when he won his Oscar.

The final scene of Pygmalion/My Fair Lady has always been controversial. No producer ever wanted Shaw's ending of Eliza telling off Higgins and marching off to a life of independence. Everybody has always wanted a "happy" ending.

Sir Herbert Beerbohm Tree, the producer and star of the original Pygmalion, solved the problem by having Higgins take a bouquet out of its vase and marched upstage to throw the flowers at Eliza's feet on the sidewalk below. Shaw hated it but he couldn't complain because Tree hadn't changed the text.

Interesting that for a period piece in Vistavision in the late 50s it wasn't in color. It should have been.

That line where Rose asks the spotlight operator to hit Baby June with a hot pink light when she does her special? Totally racist.

Didn't Tree also tell Shaw he turned it into a bigger success?

Sounds likely, r379.

Living in England years ago, I found you could practically update it to today with people still judging other by the way they speak, even by what they are ordering. I once was criticized by some bloke in a pub by ordering a glass of port. " 'Ere, what you ordering that for? That's for swells, posh like? We have beer, 'ere!" I tried port elsewhere. Though nowadays, people could teach themselves more upward mobility speech by imitating newscasters or others over the BBC and other telly stations.

No matter what the Elizas' expressions were, the ending of MFL was clearly meant to be uber-romantic by the creative team. Just listen to the gorgeous orchestral swelling of the music—I Could Have Danced All Night, not Hymn to Him or With a Little Bit of Luck. I don't think we were supposed to feel that Higgins was celebrating a new assistant to help him keep appointments.

[quote] That line where Rose asks the spotlight operator to hit Baby June with a hot pink light when she does her special? Totally racist.

Especially when he actually hit her. Just grabbed the light and whacked her across the head with it. It will be the basis of an episode of the New Law & Order.

Pygmalion succeeded as a romantic comedy but it was never meant to be that. Shaw always intended it to be a treatise on class distinction.

Read the book of HMS Pinafore and you'll find the same thing. Social commentary dressed up with sauce à la Sullivan.

What really solved the MFL ending was when Eliza woke up on a pile of dead flowers in a cold Covent Garden and realized it was all a dream and that she was every much the alcoholic her father was.

Shaw meant it to be both didactic in pointing out the class system, but he made it into a fairy tale Cinderella tale in transforming Eliza (and Higgins to some extent), realized even more so in MFL with its music, especially "I Could Have Danced All Night" and "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face", two of most beautiful melodies in the piece; even if Harrison didn't really sing it, the orchestra very clearly plays the great romantic melody.

One point on which I hope we can all agree is that it's the very complexity of the characters and themes in both PYGMALION and MY FAIR LADY -- but even more so in the latter -- that make these works endlessly fascinating classics.

It is a great ending. And to have Eliza walk out while it is playing is directorial assholery of the highest order. If Sher had the courage of his convictions he would have ended it exactly as the film's mock ending posted above.

I’m currently directing a production of MFL where Higgins ends the show by saying, “I voted Brexit” and Eliza walks out.

[quote]If Sher had the courage of his convictions he would have ended it exactly as the film's mock ending posted above.

That would have meant cutting "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face" and the entire final scene, which he wouldn't have been allowed to do even if he wanted to.

McKenzie/MAME

That Rothschilds clip was wonderful. Thanks, R359!

I never heard that the casting of one of the grown-up sons was the reason that Bock and Harnick broke up. I thought it was a disagreement about the director. Wasn't one of them unhappy when Michael Kidd was hired to replace the original director during the out-of-town tryout?

Who’s this Patti LuPone girl? She’s not half bad. Did her career go anywhere?

[quote]I never heard that the casting of one of the grown-up sons was the reason that Bock and Harnick broke up. I thought it was a disagreement about the director. Wasn't one of them unhappy when Michael Kidd was hired to replace the original director during the out-of-town tryout?

Yes, that's what I have read and heard as well, from more than one reliable source. I don't know where that idea about a disagreement over the casting of one of the sons came from. I suppose there may have been a disagreement there, but it hardly sounds likely that it would have caused the breakup of the Bock-Harnick partnership.

^^Oops, sorry, I didn't see the posts between the original Rothschilds clip and mine.

What a shame the Bock-Harnick partnership ended after Rothschilds. They had a great string of Broadway scores. I think Fiddler and She Loves Me are perfect. Even their two shows that were not big hits, Tenderloin and Rothschilds, have wonderful scores.

I love Bock and Harnick, like Sondheim, and somehow have never heard this gossip about The Rothschilds leading to their breakup. Please somebody spill all the tea.

Tenderloin has a wonderful score. That TV guy in the Encores revival was no Maurice Evans but what a joy to hear that wonderful music live with a full band.

Thank you, r359! It's so nice to see Mayer and sons back on YT. It's such a glorious, life-affirming set piece!

Too bad Bock's son is such a fucking horrible playwright.

Adam Bock??

MY FAIR LADY is a male centric piece of trash. I propose the following solution: After Higgins says, "Where the devil are my slippers?" have Eliza take center stage and announce, "I don't feel seen. This is not a safe space" and exit through the house. But instead of an orchestral reprise of "I Could Have Danced All Night", you blast out Keala Settle singing "This Is Me" from "The Greatest Showman". It's a better song, anyway.

^^^^^^HA!!!!

I wish I had thought of that R402!

I would have Higgins say, "Trigger warning, male chauvinism/mention of Satan. Where the devil are my slippers?"

THe disagreement between Bock and Harnick was about the original director being fired. One wanted it and the other didn't.

I grew up with Bock's son and he's not a playwright.

The perfect solution for MFL, though I've never seen anyone do it, is to have Eliza enter towards the end of the song, so she knows how Higgins really feels, and therefore has the upper hand at the end.

Bock, Harnick & Rodgers

Tenderloin

Michael Kidd replaced the original THE ROTHSCHILDS director, Derek Goldby.

Because Kidd an old pro was hired they broke up a very successful partnership? Something doesn't sound right.

Apologies for already supplied information. When I posted, all those other posts hadn't shown up.

Michael Kidd was by all accounts a brilliant choreographer/director but by many accounts a nasty man to have to work with.

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 2010, "Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson" opened at the Bernard B. Jacobs Theatre.

Wow I never heard that about Kidd. Dance on Film at Lincoln Center at the Walter Reade had an evening with him being interviewed between clips from his films. He came across as extremely genial.

Where's "Bloody, Bloody Andrew Jackson"'s Benjamin Walker now?

Michael Friedman was a lovely, if tortured, guy. But incredibly overrated as a songwriter.

I am so grateful my job never put me in a position in between Dolores Gray and her mother.

You shoulda seen what she did to the balloon girl, r417!

Speaking of The Rothschilds, Robby Benson is quite candid about it in his memoirs, I'm Not Dead ... Yet. He says that one of the adult actors in the show kept asking him if he could suck his cock, "but then you'll have to suck mine, too!"

He only says that the man was a Tony Award winner. There were two male Tony winners in The Rothschilds, both of whom won for the show. One was Hal Linden, but a few pages later Robby Benson makes it clear that Linden was a really nice man and extremely kind and a great mentor to work with, so obviously he's not the potential molester. Benson makes no mention at all of the other Tony winner, and the (presumable) guilty party, Keene Curtis (known to friends as "Queen" Curtis).

[quote] Tenderloin has a wonderful score. That TV guy in the Encores revival was no Maurice Evans but what a joy to hear that wonderful music live with a full band.

I think the Encores! recording makes a far better case for Tenderloin than the OBCR. Maurice Evans was past his prime and overtaxed by his songs. He's painful to listen to. David Ogden Stiers is much more fun in the role, and a livelier presence. And Patrick Wilson is sensational on that recording as well, a huge improvement over block of wood Ron Hussman.

The Encores also includes some music left off the OBCR, including the really wonderful Entr'acte.

Queenie Keene.

Mimi's U/S

Former "Hamilton" Cast Member Suni Reid Files Discrimination and Retaliation Complaint Against the Musical:

As someone who doesn't know The Rothschilds at all, I'm sorry to say the clip of Hal Linden and the sons on the Sullivan show did not persuade me to look further into the music. Was that really the best number they could come up with to sell the show? No wonder it didn't run long.

Didn't Harnick and Bock also write The Apple Tree? Even though some of it might be considered a minor endeavor, I love that score.

I love Bock and Harnick in a major way but I've never much cared for The Rothschilds based on the OBCR. What happened?

[quote]Too bad Bock's son is such a fucking horrible playwright.

Who are you referring to? I hope you don't think Adam Bock is Jerry Bock's son, and that you just typed that as if you were sure of it and as if it's common knowledge, because if so, you have made yourself look really stupid.

I just watched the clip. I saw it in'71 and that's the first I've seen of it in 50 years. It's as mediocre as I remembered. The only number I remember making any impression was Rothschild and Sons. I didn't even buy the obc. And I usually would always buy the obc. It had a great logo and considering its pedigree you really wanted to love it.

[quote]The perfect solution for MFL, though I've never seen anyone do it, is to have Eliza enter towards the end of the song, so she knows how Higgins really feels, and therefore has the upper hand at the end.

Although the staging of that might be a little tricky, it's a very interesting idea. Good for you.

[quote]Because Kidd an old pro was hired they broke up a very successful partnership? Something doesn't sound right.

If I understand correctly, the problem was partly in the way it was handled. Plus, apparently, Bock REALLY wanted one director and Harnick REALLY wanted the other, though I don't remember which was which.

The Apple Tree

[quote]Former Hamilton Cast Member Suni Reid Files Discrimination and Retaliation Complaint Against the Musical

[quote]Reid, a transgender non-binary performer who understudied multiple principal roles, says their contract was rescinded after requesting a gender-neutral dressing room.

What exactly is meant by a "gender-neutral dressing room?" That it would only be used by people in the cast who identify as "transgender" and "non-binary?" And so, if this person is the only one in the cast who identifies as such, they would have to be given their own dressing room for that reason?

You know what? If that's what this person meant, maybe they should have figured out a way to give them their own dressing room and thereby ostracize themselves from the rest of the company, by their own choice.

Sorry, I was trying to dryly reference an old DL joke about Bock, but I guess it was too dry. Oh well.

R424 I found a link to the full complaint. I find it hard to believe this was written by a lawyer. It opens with a version of Hamilton's lyrics adapted to suit "Mx Reid"'s situation. The background section is written like it's for reality television, complete with a paragraph opening with "Mx. Reid was not going to throw away their shot". However, there's some interesting stuff about how toxic it seems the Hamilton companies are, which seems to back up what a poster here said about them a few months ago).

He accuses a bunch of cast members of making negative comments (he names only three of them (Neil Haskell, Roddy Kennedy, Andrew Chappelle) but says more made comments). He was told to act more male on stage, was called Miss Six backstage, and people would make fun of how he minced and when he wore dresses.

He complained when he was told not to wear nail varnish during the show, saying it was discrimination.

Apparently a lot of the Chicago cast would make comments about how the Schuyler sisters tits looked "too distracting" in their costumes.

Another cast member, Zelig Williams, told him to try to pray the gay away like he did. The next day Williams was "still agitated" and got into an altercation and pushed someone on stage. yet another cast member - Carvens Lissaint - defended Williams and said he too was praying with him.

The Chicago Aaron Burr - Akron Watson - threatened to attack him, because Reid put his hand on him - as directed. Other cast members told him Watson was always like that.

On the dressing room issue - Reid requests it when he's due to move to the LA production. It actually seems like they agree, though this turns out to be a curtained off part of the existing dressing rooms. At the same time, company management gets pissy about social media posts from Reid bitching about the show, accusing management of racism, etc. Reid paints this as revenge for requesting the gender neutral dressing room - which he insists wouldn't just be for him.

He then contacts the manager of the Pantages to try and work out what rooms are free and could be used for the dressing room - which pisses off management further. Broadway for Racial Justice gets involved and tries to take this directly to LMM, which obviously further pisses off LA management. The story ends with the gender-neutral dressing room in place, and them telling him he's done with Hamilton.

To back up his case, he refers to Daniel Belnavis - the one who posted his over-long whinings about how Hamilton didn't recognise his artistic genius, and a story about a cast member - Nyla Sostre - who complained that the wigs weren't styled by black people, and so took to styling her own wigs, and was fired. Not, perhaps, the best people to back up your claims.

I should add, like Blenavis, Reid was originally cast as Man 6 (hence the Miss Six joke), which does make you wonder what it is about that role which brings out the crazy. Sounds like the Hamilton stage manager could sense what was in store:

[quote]In or around October 2017, at Mx. Reid’s first Hamilton onboarding call with Stage Manager Amber White, it quickly became clear that Hamilton might not offer the welcoming atmosphere one would expect. Instead of a warm welcome, Ms. White made it clear to Mx. Reid that “your role is cuttable, we can do the show without you.”

I knew many people who knew Keene Curtis, and it's no shock at all that he may have said that to Robby Benson. Keene was known to be an unrepentant—and successful—lech. As for Robby, rumor had it that he had a huge cock that was often seen swinging openly at an UWS health club. (although no rumors that he was gay, just uninhibited).

[quote]To back up his case, he refers to Daniel Belnavis - the one who posted his over-long whinings about how Hamilton didn't recognise his artistic genius, and a story about a cast member - Nyla Sostre - who complained that the wigs weren't styled by black people, and so took to styling her own wigs, and was fired. Not, perhaps, the best people to back up your claims.

Indeed.

Didn't Keene play Daddy Warbucks forever? Yikes...

Imagine if he were in Oliver!!

So who was the queenier Daddy Warbucks, Reid Shelton or Keene Curtis?

I remember one of the Annie orphans said in that documentary that several male members of the ensemble would eyefuck certain theatergoers in the audience into hooking up later outside the stage door.

What about Norwood Smith? Harve Presnell? Betty Hutton? Alice Ghostly? How much eye fucking was going on at ANNIE (formerly ALVIN).

I worked with Keene Curtis in the early 1990s and found him to be a consummate professional and gentleman. While I have no idea what he was doing with all of his time offstage (and granted, there were no underage boys in our cast), he was the picture of propriety and modesty backstage, by no means a leering, slobbering letch. I was barely aware he was gay.

My post above about Keene in no way was meant to imply that he was into young boys. He just liked to have sex with attractive men when he was an attractive man. By the 90s he would have been 70-ish and perhaps his libido was dampened by then. "Leering and slobbering " are your words.

r346 here again. Sorry to circle back to this, but truly and honestly wondering if anyone here can explain -- whether or not you agree -- the argument that 10 out of 12's and 6-day weeks are racist. They may be inhumane or out of touch - but why or how racist?

[quote]Truly and honestly wondering if anyone here can explain -- whether or not you agree -- the argument that 10 out of 12's and 6-day weeks are racist. They may be inhumane or out of touch - but why or how racist?

The only "explanation" is that some POC interpret any mistreatment or unfairness, whether real or perceived, as "racist," even if lots of white people are subject to the same mistreatment or unfairness. And that's because charging "racism" is their default for everything.

R444, truer words never typed. Many POC are professional victims, no matter what their income.

I knew Keene Curtis in the late 80s and 90s, and like R441 says, I found him to be warm, funny, professional in his work, discrete, and not at all a "letch." His libido was still intact, and he was certainly comfortably gay. I was much younger and he flirted, but nothing obnoxious or inappropriate.

r442, I wasn't responding to a post of yours (otherwise, I would have linked you) but to what I perceived as a general demeaning of Keene Curtis upthread. At least, that was how I, and I'm guessing other posters, might have taken it.

Regarding Keene Curtis, assuming he is the person that Robby Benson is referring to in that story, I guess the next question is whether or not the story is true as Robby tells it. Hard to believe he would lie about something so awful, but I'm sure none of us like to believe Keene would say something like that, especially to an underage person.

R443 Maybe it's because it's hard work, and according to the Smithsonian, hard work and adhering to schedules belongs to white culture (along with "bland is best")

Suddenly the rather obscure Keene Curtis dominates a thread! What are the chances he'll headline the next Gossip thread?

Keene was what he was...

It is indeed Robby Benson who tells that story, and it's there for all; to read in his book. $2.99 on Kindle. Anyway, Benson is quite specific that the "letch" (not his description) was a Tony winner. If you look up The Rothschilds cast, there were only two male Tony winners in the cast at the time, Linden and Curtis (both of whom won for their roles in the show). At first I thought he must be speaking of Hal Linden, but a page or so later, he praises Hal L to the skies as a terrific person, etc etc. Whereas when he speaks of the latch, it's with a sense of disdain. And he never mentions Keene Curtis at all. So, given it's a Tony winner, it has to be Curtis. But also remember this is - what, 1970-71? Benson would've been 15 and 16 during the run. There just wasn't such a sense of shock about someone older pursuing someone 15, 16, 17 then. It was a different time. Curtis wasn't necessarily into young boys, he was into Robby Benson, who was well into adolescence at the time.

Whoever said Robby Benson has a huge, floppy dick wasn't kidding!

Robby did have thick, eminently suck-worthy lips, too.

Viv

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 1961, "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying" opened at the 46th Street Theatre.

Michele certainly had a softer look than Bonnie Scott.

A softer voice too, R458. I find Bonnie’s vocal tone rather unpleasant on the cast recording.

Actually, I love Bonnie Scott on the recording. I saw it on tour, though, and got to see Dyan Cannon in the part. She was great. (Then again, I was never a Michelle Lee fan...)

Thanks, r456! A true rarity. Leigh must have been charm incarnate in that show; she sure was a crap singer!

THE VISITOR has now postponed its first preview at The Public a second time, to October 16.

Guuurrrrl, wtf is going on over there?

Armie Hammer's replacement in The Minutes is the boyfriend from Schitt's Creek. Which, if nothing else, must be a hilarious blow to Hammer's ego

I do hope Charles Isherwood gives many more negative reviews if it means I don't have to scroll past his bullshit in the Broadway Briefing. Guessing the producers of the Lehman Trilogy weren't willing to play his games.

I saw Sutton Foster last night in D.C. at the Sixth & I Streets Synagogue for her book tour - she wrote a memoir during the pandemic that is also sort of a how-to crafting book called “Hooked.” Anyway, she was really lovely but I sensed this sadness about her I don’t think I knew about before last night. Her mother was an agoraphobic with an undiagnosed mental illness and Sutton’s relationship with her was very complicated. She said that her mother only saw her onstage one time and that was a big deal for her. She has an adopted daughter named Emily.

She spoke specifically about her infamous Rosie O’Donnell Show performance of “Gimme, Gimme” and how she had no clue how to modulate her performances back then. She went like 115% for that performance and was almost beyond exhausted by the end of it (and she said she had to skip sound check at 9am because she was afraid she wouldn’t have any voice left to sing it on the show). She copped to being very green at that point in her career. She also said that she was offered understudy in Millie and Eponine in the Broadway version of Les Miz and something told her to go for Millie.

Her favorite songs from “The Music Man” are Trouble, Til There Was You, and another one I forgot. She said that she’s approaching the role of Marian as if it’s never been done before. She said that because of the intimidating shadows of Shirley Jones, Barbara Cook, and Rebecca Luker, she needs to approach it that.

She was really kind to all the people (all women) who asked questions during the Q&A. One girl was such a fan that she was completely overwhelmed and couldn’t even get out her question and Sutton was so nice about it joking with the girl that she recognized her.

Anyway, it was a lovely evening and she’s hardly the “bland” “assembly line” person that is often described here. I sensed that she has worked through a lot of pain in her life and she spoke very knowingly about the psychology of some of the characters she’s portrayed.

And she loves to crochet!

Who's Simon Russell Beale banging' while he's here?

[quote]Actually, I love Bonnie Scott on the recording.

Seriously? Everyone but you whom I've ever heard express an opinion on this thinks her sound on that album is a pushed, coarse belt, very unpleasant to listen to.

Sutton is still boring onstage.

Why was this "infamous", r464?

How to Succeed was one of my favorite obcs growing up and I remember nothing unpleasant about Bonnie Scott's voice. It was a nice Broadway belt of the period. R466 You need to find people who have their ears cleaned out because I have never heard anybody make complaints about that album which is one of the greats.

R469, it is a great album overall, but again, you are the ONLY person I know of who thinks Bonnie Scott doesn't sound awful on it. It's really too bad that Michele Lee isn't on the album, as it would have been nice to hear her sing the songs that were cut from the movie ("Happy to Keep His Dinner Warm," "Paris Original," the extended version of "Rosemary").

Bonnie brays...

"I DON'T BRAY!!!!" -- Bonnie Scott

"Yes, you do, dear." -- the entire listening public except for R460/469

I agree with r460 and r469. Voice has character and isn't cookie cutter

That's not "character." Bonnie Scott's singing on the HOW TO SUCCEED album is pushed and coarse and unpleasant. Maybe she felt she needed to sing that way in the theater to be heard, but at the very least, she should have realized she needed to pull way back for the recording.

Clearly Loesser who when it came to how his work was performed was a tyrant had no problem with her.

Too much vibrato.

I like Bonnie Scott as well. I think she has a really interesting, distinctive sound that I've never thought was "pushed," "coarse" or any other negative adjective that has been ascribed here. That whole original album is pretty terrific.

I don't know if it was her heart issues, but she didn't seem that invested in a career.

yes what r475 said. But why would we have faith in Loesser when we have r474?

I think she sounds fine. A bit too much vibrato, but I've heard worse. Way worse.

I love Bonnie Scott on the How to Succeed album also, so there are at least two of us.

Bonnie looked better with the red wig she wore as Marlo’s best friend, Judy, in the first season of That Girl.

It's true that Loesser was reportedly a tyrant, or at least a stickler, as to how his music was performed, but that doesn't mean I or anyone else has to agree with his taste as to what was or wasn't a good singing voice. I'm sticking with my opinion that Bonnie Scott sounds awful on that album, and many people apparently agree with me (I wasn't the first one in this thread to bemoan her singing), AND you are perfectly free to disagree.

The combination of Keene Curtis and Bonnie Scott has brought this thread to a crashing halt.

Pipe down, Claudette!

[quote]AND you are perfectly free to disagree.

Says the person who just spent several posts insisting his opinion was the only right one.

[quote]Says the person who just spent several posts insisting his opinion was the only right one.

Nope, I never did that. I don't think someone has to type "in my opinion" EVERY TIME they express an opinion to make it clear that they recognize it's their opinion and others will disagree. Do you?

I wonder if Bonnie will ever see this thread. Keene won’t, since he died in 2002.

Well, I can't bear Jo Sullivan's voice on the MOST HAPPY FELLA OBC so I wouldn't trust Frank Loesser's opinion, even if he was the composer.

R489. I have always hated her voice, too, which is a shame because I love the score. Sophie Hayden was wonderful in the revival, despite the wan two-piano orchestration.

Saw Tina yesterday. Absolutely worth a visit.

I'm very curious how the returning musicals are doing on Broadway. Is Moulin Rouge selling well? Wicked? Has Lion King reopened? I imagine their first weeks have done well but what about after that? How I wish the grosses were published!

I loved Loved LOVED that Most Happy Fella revival even with the 2 pianos (saw it 3 times) but the OBC is such a depressing affair that doesn't begin to express the intimate joy of the production and the stellar performances of Sophie, Spiro Malas, Liz Larsen and Tony winner Scott Waara (WHET?). They should have added a small orchestra for the recording.

I like Megan...

[quote]Well, I can't bear Jo Sullivan's voice on the MOST HAPPY FELLA OBC so I wouldn't trust Frank Loesser's opinion, even if he was the composer.

Funny, I was going to mention Jo and also that female lead in GREENWILLOW as two other Loesser leading ladies whose singing would not be to everyone's taste. And as for the men, there was Tony Perkins, but he was a movie star, so of course that was a big factor in his casting.

Susan Johnson was to everyone’s taste.

Why does Megan sound like she’s singing in an echo chamber on that tape?

Green Willow

If Frank didn't like the way you sang his songs he literally slapped you in the face in front of the entire cast and crew.

I did Tina yesterday...

Now I think I am Irene Ryan

And one more Rosemary:

Eddie Redmayne has a message for critics over his casting in traditionally queer role:

Joel Grey was decades away from coming out and identifying as gay when he did Cabaret in 1966. And the best Emcee in the 1990s production were Michael C. Hall and Norbert Leo Butz, neither of whom was gay.

SJP actually sounds really good in that tape of How to Succeed. I wonder why she sounded so bad two years later in "Once Upon a Mattress"?

[quote]And she loves to crochet!

You heard it here first -- Sutton Foster is a HOOKER!

Loesser probably approved of Jo Sullivan's voice because he was shtupping her.

He also shtupped Claudette Sutherland, according to impeccable sources.

[quote]Oscar-winning actor Eddie Redmayne has struck back at critics attacking his casting in a new, West End production of Cabaret.

Despite what this says, if you read the article -- and, believe me, you REALLY don't need to -- Redmayne didn't "strike back" at anyone, he just made a perfectly reasonable comment about how he plans to play the role.

Let's face it, EVERY role Alan Cumming plays becomes queer in his hands.

Certainly not in Eyes Wide Shut!

Went to see David Byrne last night. Theater was packed. Same at Six last week. So Broadway is back?

You're gonna die in there.

I have to say I thought Alan Cumming was marvelous in the role. He hit all the right notes of queerness, decadence and malevolence that it needed.

R513 What is queerness?

Michael Hall was an Emcee you’d want to fuck. Cumming? Not so much.

To say nothing of Joel Grey and Martin Ross ...

The Emcee is supposed to be more grotesque than fuckable, r515.

[quote]The Emcee is supposed to be more grotesque than fuckable

I always thought it might be interesting for the audience to get more background on the Emcee and maybe even a glimpse of what his life is like when he's not on stage at the cabaret. But then again, perhaps it works better for the character not knowing too much about him.

[quote]I always thought it might be interesting for the audience to get more background on the Emcee and maybe even a glimpse of what his life is like when he's not on stage at the cabaret. But then again, perhaps it works better for the character not knowing too much about him.

Yes, I think the less we know about him, the better it is for the show -- including whether or not he's a Jew, and whether he's straight or gay.

Dreams Never Lie with Angie

Why this didn't run for years is beyond me.

I never miss a Pernell Roberts musical.

DL fave Ali Stroker of "Wokelahoma!" was on an episode of "Only Murders in the Building." Other Broadway regulars spotted: Jayne Houdyshell and Jackie Hoffman, who have recurring roles.

Boy Merrick was really printing money with Dolly when he could afford flops like Mata Hari and Holly Golightly.

At least Holly Golightly had a good pedigree - the book, the movie, Capote, Bob Merrill. It was the casting that let the show down. MTM didn't have the Broadway musical theatre 'oomph" required, and honestly, neither did Richard Chamberlin.

Bereft now that Shakelton was forced to delete all his videos on YT. I was saving Rock Follies for a rewatch. I don’t know if I’d ever get around to the UK Funny Girl, though.

So....THE VISITOR finally began previews last night without one of its stars, Ari'el Stachel, who was replaced by his understudy. And lyricist/co-bookwriter Brian Yorkey had no bio in the Playbill and was not thanked in a program note by Oskar Eustis, who named all the other creatives.

I wasn't there, just putting it together from posts on the 2 theater websites.

R527, that's incredible. Are you suggesting that Ari'el is gone for good, or just that he missed the first preview for some reason? Will be really interesting to see what happens next. I feel sorry for all the innocent people caught up in this, like David Hyde Pierce, who's the sweetest guy in the world..

Poor Shakelton. This is the 2nd time that's happened. This is why we can't have nice things.

How was his Rhett, r522?

Saw Jackie Hoffman power walking in Hudson River Park last week. Surprisingly, she was scowling.

All About...the Mystery Woman of the Theatre

Jackie Hoffman... never has anyone done nothing special with so little.

Shakleton is a God. His videos saved me during the pandemic. Bless him.

MAME '83

Toys in the Attic

The NYT is so far up Oskar Eustis’ ass that they haven’t covered any of the shenanigans that r527 and others have reported here

I agree, r537, but I'm honestly not sure the NY Times or any other journalists are being given any kind of access to those involved in the production for enough factual info to constitute a news story. OTOH, this story would have been perfect for Michael Riedel. Just goes to show how theatre gossip really is dead in these times.

Maybe we will eventually all learn the truth after the show opens.

Why what's up with Eustis? Is he another James Levine or Scott Rudin who The New York Whore keeps rimming for big bucks?

Also, the book writer for The Visitor is famously an asshole.

Speaking of Ari'el Stachel, who's had him? Total BDF.

I think The Visitor originally (in pre-Covid announcements) had one book writer, Brian Yorkey, who also wrote the lyrics.

But when the show was announced again this summer, Kwame Kwei-Armah was added to the credits as co-writer of the book. The original screenplay was written by Tom McCarthy who also directed the film.

[quote]I think The Visitor originally (in pre-Covid announcements) had one book writer, Brian Yorkey, who also wrote the lyrics. But when the show was announced again this summer, Kwame Kwei-Armah was added to the credits as co-writer of the book.

And that may be a strong indicator of the kind of major problems this show is apparently facing.

Eustis is running scared like every other white male artistic director in town. He's not only letting the inmates run the asylum, and the place is a nightmare right now. The insane levels of wokeness are putting handcuffs on all the creative teams and artists, and people are starting to pull their projects. It's shocking.

Any details R544?

[quote]Eustis is running scared like every other white male artistic director in town.

Some of them are running scared, like the ridiculous Jack Cumming III. Others have already quit rather than deal with all the bullshit, and I don't blame them.

Sorry, that's Jack Cummings, not to be confused with Alan Cumming. Though I'll bet they have some things in common.

Has Jack Cummings quit (or disbanded) The Transport Co.? Or has he quit a project at The Public, r546?

There is a Jack Cummings lll?!!

The Dana H. reviews are raves. Will they sell enough tickets?

So many of the great straight plays this season are by relatively new writers, lack star names and have relatively simple physical productions.....BUT....what they do have is brilliant and inventive writing and acting. So whether or not they deserve to be housed in Broadway theaters and charging Broadway prices remains to be seen.

But so far I've seen Pass Over, Dana H. and Is This a Room and was blown away each time. Live theater at its best because it makes you think. The days of Mary, Mary and Any Wednesday and even Neil Simon are long gone.

R548, I'm not aware of Cummings being involved in any project at The Public. I was talking about his leadership of The Transport Group. As far as I know, he hasn't quit or disbanded the group, but last year, when the BLM thing blew up, he tried to do get ahead of it by having POC who had worked at Transport write testaments to him and the company -- and it was so damned obvious what he was doing that it was excruciatingly embarrassing.

How DARE they call themselves The Transport Group when the trans community is woefully underrepresented in their productions.

TRANS!

Damn- I finally decided to conquer my fear of being in an audience during Covid and checked the theater listings. There isn't a fucking thing to go see. I can't find anything worth spending money on. And what's with every black show from the past 30 years being revived? How many fucking times is New York gonna do a production of Lackawanna Blues?

[Quote] I'm honestly not sure the NY Times or any other journalists are being given any kind of access to those involved in the production for enough factual info to constitute a news story.

R538 the NYT theater desk needs to get past press releases and do some reporting. Michael Paulson loves to brag he was part of the Spotlight team in Boston but he sucks and is so boring. He has no flair for arts writng and no drive to do reporting

Paulson was only on the Spotlight team after a period of time. If you listen to the movie carefully, they take a shot at him. He was at the time the religion reporter and he didn't want to take on the story or the church. That's why they needed to form the secret team.

yes r557 now I remember that. Could he possibly be more dull? Even our crappy industry dserves better. Is he holding off on any coverage of The Visitor delays and comings and goings because the Public asked him to? Come on Michael it's the Public - I bet you can work the word 'Hamilton' into the headline for clickbait since that's the only thing you seem to be able to, do

This just in from the Public regarding The Visitor. Not a big problem, but geez, guys, get it together will'ya?

We write to let you know that your performance start time for THE VISITOR has changed from 2:00PM to 1:00PM. Please take a moment and update your calendar accordingly.

Why the change? As we continue working on this large, new musical, we need more time between the end of the matinee performance and the start of the evening performance, which has resulted in the need to start the matinee one-hour earlier.

*2* ACTRESSES *2*

OK, that's just weird r559, as Equity does not allow any rehearsal time between matinee and evening performances. I don't think they even allow note sessions with the actors between shows.

Could there be a set change that's so extensive it requires an extra hour of clean up time? What gives, Oskar??

I miss Enid Nemy

And I miss Alex Witchel. She was really the only NY Times theatre gossip columnist.

I'm fine, r562, I send my love...

I miss plays like Mary Mary and Any Wednesday.

Just wait for Plaza Suite with me and Matty this winter, r565!!!

Maybe The Star Spangled Girl would be more timely.

Connie would totally be up for that, r567!

Connie Casserole?

And so would Richard Benjamin.

So when are Dana H., Is This A Room, and Thoughts of a Colored Man going to close, so that the few remaining woke New Yorkers who are willing to buy theatre tickets will go see the triumphant return of SLAVE PLAY?!

[quote]Connie Casserole?

Oh, Mary, don't ask!

I nuked my Youtube account. Need a break.

Oh well, Valens/Shakelton. Thanks.

Oh, good. At least it was by choice and you didn't get run off.

*3* ACTRESSES *3*

Today...𝗽𝗵

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 1987, a revival of "Anything Goes" starring Patti LuPone opened at the Vivian Beaumont Theatre.

From Russia with...

Went to see Wicked on Sunday. A friend had a last minute extra ticket, and has been trying to get me comfortable with going back to theater so I reluctantly accompanied him.

I'd seen the show before right after it opened and I remember at the time thinking- this is okay, but the only strong item is the book. The score is garbage, and Idina is screaming. (Jennifer Laura Thompson had taken over for Cheno and she was wonderful.) I certainly would never have expected it to run as long as it has.

I was pleasantly surprised at how well the show has held up. I know everyone has been on an 18 month break, but the show felt fresh and everyone seemed very energized and into it. The book seems even stronger to me on 2nd viewing, and as much as I loved Avenue Q, I think their book was not as good, and Holzman should have won over Whitty. The score is still so-so but there was a stand-by in playing Elphaba and she was really, really good. The cast was uniformly decent. (I also saw a stand-by for Morrible, who was wonderful, and I'm glad because I couldn't imagine the "stunt cast" Alexandra Billings croaking her way through the role.) But I have to say that I enjoyed the show the 2nd time around much more than my first.

House was packed. Not one empty seat. I did it. I went back. I survived. Don't think I'll be doing it again for some time.

Interesting, R560. A lot of people seem to feel that the book of WICKED is no better than the score, and that Holzman did not do a good job of adapting the novel.

I have not read the novel, but I had a conversation about it after seeing the show again and a friend who read it said it's very different and that the witch was not the main focus of it. When he described some of the story, it was clear it would not work as a straight lift to making it a musical. I think Holzman took a lot of what was interesting about the book (from what I've been told, and I think I will sit down and read the book now) and made it work in a classic musical theater setting, while finding ways to have callbacks to the original Oz story. The one quibble I have is that certain things that happen in Wicked don't correspond properly time line wise with The Wizard of Oz, but it's a very small issue.

My guess is that if you're looking to find the novel Wicked onstage, you will probably be disappointed with Holzman's adaptation, but if you look at it as a basis and jumping off point, you can admire it for what it is.

Exactly how old are Glinda and Elphaba supposed to be anyway? Certainly not high school age. We should know any day now who’s been cast for the film. I think it starts shooting next month in Georgia.

I couldn't get through the book. I think Holtzman did a great job on the libretto. She made it into an allegory about the 2nd Bush administration. Should have won the tony.

[quote] Exactly how old are Glinda and Elphaba supposed to be anyway?

They start as college students.

The plot of the novel would have made a terrible musical. The creators were very smart taking just the basic concept and throwing out the rest

Although that dragon on the proscenium, which has no relevance whatsoever to the musical’s story, is a direct relic of the novel.

The book is very dense and deserves a non-musical mini-series.

Yeah, I forgot about the dragon from the first time I saw the show and all through watching on Sunday I kept thinking- There's a dragon in this? Well, there wasn't. I wonder if the dragon fit into the story more in the SF tryout (where the word of mouth was deadly) and they cut it, but figured- hey, we spent a ton on this fucking thing and it looks cool. let's just hang it up here. Personally, I would have lopped the dragon's head off and put the Wizard's mechanical head there instead of wheeling it out on an A/V cart the way they do, but I guess the back of the orchestra wouldn't have been able to see it.

^To add: The book is for adults and the musical is for tweens.

[quote]The one quibble I have is that certain things that happen in Wicked don't correspond properly time line wise with The Wizard of Oz, but it's a very small issue.

I don't think that's a small issue. And there are other annoying mistakes in the musical, like when Elphaba sings "But I swear, someday there'll be a celebration throughout Oz that's all to do with me!" That's obviously supposed to be a knowing reference to "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead!" from THE WIZARD OF OZ -- except that song celebrates the death of the Wicked Witch of the East, NOT the West (i.e., Elphaba). And yes, I know the movie was to have included a reprise of that song to celebrate the death of the WW of the W (i.e., Elphaba), but that reprise was cut from the movie, so we never see any such celebration (even if we can assume that it did take place).

Also, can you please explain whether or not, in the musical, we're supposed to believe it's true that Elphaba can be melted by water? You're probably going to say, "Although that's the rumor about her, it's not true." But doesn't Morrible at some point reference the fact that Elphaba can't get wet, and wouldn't she know the truth?

Well, as to your first point- just because it wasn't in the original Oz movie doesn't mean it wasn't in the story. And remember in The Wiz, there's a huge celebration after Evillene (the Wiz version of the WWW) is destroyed. That's just a throwaway line.

My issue was seeing Fieyro and Boq being turned into the Scarecrow and the Tin Man right as Dorothy was landing in Oz. How are they so battered and abused and rusted, etc. Weren't they supposed to be there for years and years? And Nessarose doesn't really have time to become The Wicked Witch of the East. I feel like a couple lines could have solved that issue by making it known a period of time has gone by, so I just assume that's what's happened and they neglected to tell us.

I don't have an answer for you regarding the water except that if Elphaba and Fiyero planned the whole faking her death thing, then they possibly planted something in the bucket to resemble water that wasn't. And Elphaba is a witch. She can make anything appear as something else.

[quote]The book is very dense and deserves...

...to be ignored as the tedious piece of tripe it is.

[quote] Also, can you please explain whether or not, in the musical, we're supposed to believe it's true that Elphaba can be melted by water?

There’s a scene in the first act in which she gets caught in the rain and doesn’t melt

Fiyero mocks the crowd for saying water can melt her

And then there’s the ending, in which her death is clearly faked

No, water doesn’t melt her in this version of Oz

[quote] And there are other annoying mistakes in the musical, like when Elphaba sings "But I swear, someday there'll be a celebration throughout Oz that's all to do with me!" That's obviously supposed to be a knowing reference to "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead!" from THE WIZARD OF OZ -- except that song celebrates the death of the Wicked Witch of the East, NOT the West (i.e., Elphaba).

see also, pedantic.

How is Wicked a parable of the 2nd Bush administration? Or was that a joke?

[quote] I wonder if the dragon fit into the story more in the SF tryout (where the word of mouth was deadly)

I am in SF and I assure you the word of mouth was NOT “deadly.” There was some buzz when Chenowith hurt her neck and missed some performances, and also that Robert Morse was having “problems” (booze, I think, which is why he was dropped after SF.)

I saw the was show in its last week. It already had the teen fans going crazy for it, and Morse was very good, surprisingly. There was a different song that Fiyero sang instead of Dancing Through Life. It was received ecstaticly at the bows.

[quote] ecstaticly

oh, dear

My memory, r595, is that it was obvious that they needed to do work (which they did). If word of mouth had been *deadly*, they would have just closed it there.

Let's wrap this mother up!

Isn't there a line about 'regime change' in Wicked? I think that's the only direct allusion to the second Bush administration that I can remember.

I take the point made by the poster upthread hat Holzman did a pretty fine job of turning the concept of Maguire's novel into an effective and traditional book musical. But my complaint about the show is that the novel contains a lot of nuanced and complex ideas (despite being a slog, in parts). There's very little in the musical that can be considered nuanced and complex.

Somebody should adapt Geoff Ryman's 'Was' into an opera.

ENOUGH WITH WICKED!

Bajour

Whatever...

For chrissakes, OP of #441, it woulda killed you to post a link in this thread???