Dorothy Zbornak fan club thread

[quote] fan club thread

Is this like a DL version of the unofficial Elvis Presley Hunk-a Hunk-a Burnin' Love Fan Club?

Condoms! condoms! Condoms!

The best, most nuanced character.

The fact that she was the only one who didn't comment on or react to Becky's weight in "Blanche's Little Girl" is proof enough that she's the best.

I think she got hotter men than Blanche a lot of the time. Nothing for nothing, but for a supposed sex siren, Blanche's taste in men could be nothing to write home about.

I personally love the episode where they're fighting over that guy named Doug at the wedding, supposedly one of Blanche's A plus picks. Yet the guy was nothing more than you're average balding sixty year retiree with a tan and a gold watch at best. The whole episode you're thinking THIS is the prize?

<3 <3 <3

I don't know. She got me deported and promised to help get me back here, but I never heard from her again. I had to suck and fuck my back into this country until I finally got a gig on Saved by the Bell and later ET.

We're sorry, r6, but the bylaws clearly state that any derogatory remarks about the Queen are grounds for immediate expulsion. Maybe you ought to join an organization that is a little less fanatical in its devotion.

Why did she shit on Betty’s dressing room floor?

Oh like what, R7, the PLO?

Bitch couldn't even pronounce my name right.

Stanley zbornak, if you’re doing what I think you’re doing, you’re in big trouble.

Don't you think Dorothy could've done better than a high school substitute teacher? I mean, she at least could have been a teacher-teacher.

YOU DISMISSED ME DR. BUDD!!

She' definitely NOT welcome at the Mortimer Club, I can you tell that!!!

[quote]I think she got hotter men than Blanche a lot of the time. Nothing for nothing, but for a supposed sex siren, Blanche's taste in men could be nothing to write home about.

Leslie Nielsen as Uncle Lucas, Dick Van Dyke as Ken the lawyer, Al the detective, there are probably more.

The best of Blanche's boyfriends was Jake the caterer and she dumped him. Honorable mention to Edward Winter as the blind guy.

R6) You’ve just been thrown out of an unauthorized Dorothy Z fan club. Try to pick up the pieces and go on with your life. I mean, there must be a support group for people like you.

It’s nickel beer night at the Rusty Anchor. Anybody want to hear Hard Hearted Hannah?

I feel like we need a rendition of "Hard-Hearted Hannah" just about now.

Either there's an echo in here or popular demand. Either way...

R19) Thank you for the link. It’s why DZ is my fav GG

I’m going to call the school for bad girls & they will come & pick you up & put you in a sack & you will never eat ice cream or play jump rope again!

The Bea Arthur soundboard is perfect for pranking telemarketers.

Oh yeah, you’re the one with nothing going on in your bedroom.

Oh, you You just have to see what Joe has to say about all this, huh? And this Joe, would he happen to be "Jo mama"?

Not Lebanese Blanche!

If they had given this to The Donner party they still would have eaten each other.

Dorothy Zbornak, this is the most underhanded, sneaky practical joke anyone's ever played and I have just one thing to say: boy, have I missed you!

She has a [bold]cramp[/bold], you pea brain!

The master detective

Bon appetit!

First runner up in the Shady Pines Mother-Daughter Beauty Pageant

Dorothy, a lesbian.

Military recruiter

r29 is one of the best-written episodes of the series.

I was actually watching the one with McLean Stevenson as Stan's brother last night on hulu. Nothing about the plot or even Stevenson's casting made a lick of sense, but the lines and their delivery were hysterically funny.

Dorothy Z is my fave

Did hard time at Attica...or the public school system. Same thing.

Poor Dorothy is annihilated!

Oh, Rose, I don't think so! You know how uncomfortable I am infront of a camera. Besides I always come out looking like Fess Parker.

Where should I sleep?

On the floor like any dog.

R38, I always hated that moment, and the one where Blanche and Rose talk about picturing someone naked, and they both turn to Dorothy and start laughing hysterically. It's so fucking mean it makes it hard to believe anyone could consider those people her friends.

It's been widely reported that Bea was upset at all the jokes about how big and ugly and mannish Dorothy (and really, by extension, she) was, and I don't blame her. Some of those bits are so uncomfortable.

Bea looked and sounded like a man.

^^ Really, we hadn’t noticed.

In what, Blanche -- DOG YEARS?

Does anyone get the feeling that every poster in this thread was eligible for social security the year JFK was assassinated?

I like it when Blanche & Rose imagine what Dorothy looks like naked. 😆

I look like the mother of a Solid Gold dancer.

r46, she should have slapped the shit out of those cunts.

Better.

Blanche: "Do you know what I think the worst part of getting older is?"

r42, please say hello to Opie and Aunt Bee for me when you see them.

r45: Eat dirt and die, trash.

Dorothy (referring to Blanche's hunky new bf, Jake): Oh why can't I ever attract men like that?!?!

Sophia: You can, pussycat.

Dorothy: Oh ma, do you really think so?

Sophia: Of course not, but I'm you're mother and you think I'm gonna tell you that?!?!

^ THAT's what you're adding? That doesn't even belong in a Sophia Petrillo fan club thread.

How much plastic surgery did Bea have between Maude and Golden Girls? I know she lost weight, but her features looked softer and less harsh.

Here’s a link to a recent discussion of that question. My favorite reply there is

[quote] "Did Bea Arthur have plastic surgery?" No Rose, she had a head transplant

If Bea did have plastic surgery, she had a great surgeon because she always still looked like Bea.

I’ve noticed that Bea at the time of Maude (and before) had a lot of neck fat with wrinkle lines between the rolls of fat, and I think that’s why she wore scarves and/or high collars all the way through Maude. In some of the episodes of Golden Girls she shows her neck, and there’s much less neck fat and wrinkles, so I suspect she had some of it removed.

I’m Pussycat #1 YOURE Pussycat #2!

Best DZ line ever.

Bea got a facelift after two or three seasons. Or maybe just an eye lift but it’s obvious

I think the only time you EVER saw even a glimpse of Dorothy's legs was in the episode where they went to the nudist colony. She always had on pants or very long dresses, and high boots.

[quote]The best of Blanche's boyfriends was Jake the caterer and she dumped him.

I forgive you.

OhMyGodI’mCrazyNutsAboutThisGuy!!!!!!!

God'll get you for that, Walter!

Rose Nylund never shaved her fanny

Dorothy for sure got the better looking men but that's mostly because Bea really was supposed to be the main star of the show. The series finale pretty much spells it out. Blanche may have had alot of sex but most of them were old ugos.

That being said, I still prefer Blanche as a character. Though I related to Dorothy more, as I am sure most would.

[quote] This is for fans of Dorothy Z

I don't know her.

Barbara Thorndyke can go eat the first syllable of shitaki mushrooms.

R55 her breasts were operated and were smaller in GG and she lost weight and then later probably had a face lift as mentioned before

[quote] her breasts were operated

Manually? 9V battery?

Dorothy: Rose, this Friday evening I have a choice between rubbing elbows with Norman Mailer, or spending time in a horse costume with your behind in my face. (starts walking away)

Rose: well, which one is it gonna be??

Dorothy then whips around and gives Rose a withering stare before stomping off.

She used to leave her sweaty boots stinking up the living room and blamed her farts on Sophia

They may have made fun of Dorothy but she got the better looking men and she got the happy ending with the marriage. I think thats why Bea tolerated it, and also she was secure enough to know her true value...

I found it sad that Dorothy was sacked from her job as regional school director and lost her house after suffering a nervous breakdown in 1983.

[quote]Blanche may have had alot of sex

Oh, dear.

Why do so many people think "alot" is a word?

What's a syllable, Dorothy at r65?

Trudy: Boy, I envy your gumption.

Dorothy: And I, your breast implants.

My all-time favorite episode is "Journey to the Center of Attention," featuring DZ singing "Hard-Hearted Hannah." The B-plot was unfortunate. A-plot was Blanche sick of Dorothy being a homebody and dragging her to the Rusty Anchor. Dorothy takes over the bar with her good singing. Blanche counters with a tragic "I Want to Be Loved by You."

My favorite plot is when a known character does something out of character, or reveals a facet of their character heretofore unseen.

Why couldn't the girls tell that Filomena Bosco was really Freda Claxton in disguise, out to exact her revenge?

"What'll I do" still makes me drop a tear whenever I see it

[quote]My favorite plot is when a known character does something out of character, or reveals a facet of their character heretofore unseen.

"Heretofore unseen?"

A lot of S7 was a Valentine to Dorothy, culminating in the final episode of course. Bea also got to skip out two episodes.

R79, I loved Dorothy and Bea but that kind of bothered me. The last season was 90% people propping Dorothy. I loved my other GG's too.

In the Dateline Miami episode where Dorothy just appears at the beginning they could have easily written that she was going on a date with Lucas, who should have been introduced earlier in the season, to give us loyal viewers a proper chance to know his character and assess if he was good enough for our Dorothy.

Attica is a men’s prison, r37.

R78, as Dorothy! Not Maude (singing).

We know, r82. It took them a year before they found it.

IS Attica a men's prison? That fat lezz they interviewed for a housekeeper at the start of the "Marguerite" episode said that she spent time in Attica.

r75/r83, but didn't we know that?(Unless anyone wiped it from their memory. Who could blame them?)

Bea is not a good crier. I thought she was awful in the S2 episode in which she works in the museum with Blanche and she starts crying after Blanche accuses her of trying to steal her job. It was just so phony to the point of being cringeworthy.

The closest Bea came to doing a good cry (as DZ) was probably when that doctor didn't believe she was chronically fatigued.

Spumoni face

I don't know. Her tears looked perfectly genuine at the end of her big "Goodbye, Stanley" speech in "Guess Who's Coming to the Wedding."

And of course, the ending

I love the Stan episodes. DZ and Stan were 100% believable as being ex-spouses, married only because Dorothy got knocked up on prom night.

Joe Campanella played the senior FBI agent camped out at the Girls' house, surveilling the neighbors (To Catch a Neighbor). George Clooney played the junior FBI agent. I think Joe was sexy here and did have chemistry with Dorothy.

Yeah Joe was hot but I kind of hate that on the show really good, eligible candidates would pop up and then dissapear. Someone like Joe should have stayed around to have a bigger character arc with Dorothy. They had chemistry and deserved more than one episode.

[quote] I think she got hotter men than Blanche a lot of the time. Nothing for nothing, but for a supposed sex siren, Blanche's taste in men could be nothing to write home about.

Blanche was more about quantity than quality.

He took off the Goofy head. That's not so bad. (Eyes rolling!)

R81, the writers could barely maintain continuity within a single episode. There's no way they could have planned that far ahead.

And if you say something smart, I'll slap you silly.

r80, I'm not sure I saw any propping up, just the same old dumping on Dorothy the show did too much of. Are you talking about the same season 7 where:

- she found out she needed a hearing aid and felt old (evidently so old she forgot she already gave the "40 is young to me" speech six years earlier in the pilot) - she was tormented by her injured mother and her mother's nurse - the other girls voted Dorothy out of the house - Stan's love for her was revealed to actually be love for Sophia, after which the two of them ditched her to go to dinner together - her mother encouraged her sister to sleep with the ex-husband she'd always bashed, saying her sister was the kind of woman who needed a man while Dorothy was the kind of woman who should live with her mother. And her sister did sleep with her ex-husband--twice--IN HER OWN BED. - she embarrassed herself falling all over a Beatles impersonator, culminating a performance she had to flee - she was used by the old teacher she had a crush on - she was embarrassed on television by being mistakenly exposed as a lesbian - she found out her mother had been hoarding cash for years, forcing her to make sacrifices and live with a slut and a moron - she tried out for Jeopardy only to be rejected and told no one would root for her - she was dragged into court after her friend and her uncle betrayed her by putting the building's bug problem on TV instead of telling her, exposed as the Big Mean Bug Lady to the city of Miami, and sentenced to confinement with Stan - she was mocked at the high school career day, then got a exciting new job, only to be ignored and have it turn out to be a waste of time

Her high points were solving the mystery weekend murders, having a nice date and going away with an unseen doctor, singing at the Rusty Anchor, getting to be prom queen, and ending up with Lucas. The rest of the season really wasn't that great for her.

Ugh. Sorry--obviously the spacing didn't work. Let's try that again:

Season 7 was where:

- she found out she needed a hearing aid and felt old (evidently so old she forgot she already gave the "40 is young to me" speech six years earlier in the pilot)

- she was tormented by her injured mother and her mother's nurse

- the other girls voted Dorothy out of the house

- Stan's love for her was revealed to actually be love for Sophia, after which the two of them ditched her to go to dinner together

- her mother encouraged her sister to sleep with the ex-husband she'd always bashed, saying her sister was the kind of woman who needed a man while Dorothy was the kind of woman who should live with her mother. And her sister did sleep with her ex-husband--twice--IN HER OWN BED.

- she embarrassed herself falling all over a Beatles impersonator, culminating a performance she had to flee

- she was used by the old teacher she had a crush on

- she was embarrassed on television by being mistakenly exposed as a lesbian

- she found out her mother had been hoarding cash for years, forcing her to make sacrifices and live with a slut and a moron

- she tried out for Jeopardy only to be rejected and told no one would root for her

- she was dragged into court after her friend and her uncle betrayed her by putting the building's bug problem on TV instead of telling her, exposed as the Big Mean Bug Lady to the city of Miami, and sentenced to confinement with Stan

- she was mocked at the high school career day, then got a exciting new job, only to be ignored and have it turn out to be a waste of time

Her high points were solving the mystery weekend murders, having a nice date and going away with an unseen doctor, singing at the Rusty Anchor, getting to be prom queen, and ending up with Lucas. The rest of the season really wasn't that great for her.

Yeah, the jokes (Dorothy as the butt of the jokes) kind of went too far.

GG writer Christopher Lloyd said in his archives interview that they went too far with the jokes about Dorothy's appearance. He said that Bea was a good sport about it, but that she let it be known that she was not thrilled with those jokes.

Eh the jokes against Rose went pretty far too. There's an edit on youtube where it's just Rose getting shit from the other 2 and Rose comes of as an outright abuse victim.

That being said, I'm not bothered by any of it. It's a comedy where they take the shit out of each other all the time and anyway Dorothy at least also got really great writting, probably the best out of the bunch.

R103 the difference is Rue and Betty are being attacked for characteristics of their fictional character (stupidly and cock-crazed). Nothing personal for the actresses.

Bea was continually attacked for her lloks, voice, gait, manishness. Completely personal

R104 plus Bea herself had been getting those kind of jokes for years/decades both before and after GG. Like on I Love the 70s when someone joked “how could Maude get pregnant didnt her penis get in the way?”

Listen I think it was unrealistic not to acknowledge her appearance to some extent but they may have relied on those jokes a bit too much. And I can understand why Bea would take it personally after a while. The most Betty and Rue got were about their weight (in terms of what they, the actresses looked like). Oh and Betty’s hair I guess.

Please Blanche, I am very vulnerable right now, and in no mood to hear a story about you and some yahoo cracker with 4 first-names, pawing at each other under a magnolia tree.

I think it's an absolute DISGRACE that Betty was Emmy nominated for the Dateline Miami episode where she did nothing, when our Rue gave the performance of a lifetime in The Rusty Anchor episode and didn't even get a look in.

What were they thinking?!

[quote] Blanche was more about quantity than quality.

I still want to hear about the cop she called a pig after he called her an oldster.

They went out Saturday night.

In the Golden Girls Forever book, in the entry for the Love Me Tender episode, they describe Bea as breaking down in tears at the table read and threatening to quit the show.

RICHARD VACZY: For a long time, The Golden Girls had been making fun of how Bea looked: they compared her often to a man, and to various beasts. So by the time Tracy [Gamble] and I joined the show in season four, we thought for our first Golden Girls script, “Wouldn’t it be nice to do a show where Dorothy is truly attracted to—and attractive to—a man, and has her first purely sexual relationship?” It wouldn’t be about dating, but the guy would find her incredibly beautiful and attractive. And when we wrote it, we thought the script came out well. The problem with it first arose with casting, which I wasn’t involved with at this point on the show. Instead of bringing in a good-looking George Hamilton type, the casting people chose a little bald guy. When Bea saw him at the table reading that first morning, she was immediately upset. But then it got worse, as we got into the script. The executive producers had rewritten some lines. One of the new jokes said that Dorothy looked like Buddy Ebsen. When we got to that page, Bea broke down crying, right there at the table read, saying, “You’ve been calling me a man for seventy episodes now!” By two o’clock that afternoon, she had threatened to quit the show. And I was pretty much packing up my office and preparing to be fired. The irony was, it hadn’t been our fault. It wasn’t our line! It was our first script, and we had been trying to do something nice for her. Eventually, the next season, Tracy and I wound up writing another episode for Bea, “Love Under the Big Top,” where we did bring in a good-looking guy, Dick Van Dyke. And that episode did make her happy.

Christopher Lloyd's interview has a really keen insight into the dynamic between Betty and Bea--how Betty is a natural clown who has no trouble getting people on her side and has that outgoing personality (exactly who you'd think she is), while Bea wasn't and was much more sensitive and reserved (not at all who you'd think she was). Essentially it's the popular girl and the awkward girl, so it's natural there would be some tension there.

The story he tells starting at 4:00 (where he begins to discuss the jokes about her appearance) where she broke down crying at a run-through because she couldn't get a joke to work is actually touching.

Boo fucking hoo, Bea. She was homely and did have so many manly qualities. What did she expect. The writers could only work with what they were given - Bea’s manly hips.

R111=Betty White

Bea was a lot better looking that some of the middle aged women allowed on our screens in those days, like that actress who played Edith Bunker

Maude Finlay- GOD will get you for that Walter!

I thought Bea looked her most attractive in season 4. She sported a new hair-do, which was very becoming, and she obviously had some work done before the start of the season. I thought she looked like fresh hell in seasons 5 and 6. She looked better in season 7 with the new helmet hair-do, but there was so much gauze and vasoline on the lens that final year, it might've been just smoke and mirrors.

I thought Blanche looked great in season 7, she had lost weight, got a good 'do, perked up her titties and generally looked less frumpy.

Betty never really looked any different from s1 to s7

R109 When Jim Colucci was promoting the book, he did an interview on "Out on the Lanai" podcast and he gave more insight into this. When Bea finally granted him an interview (btw that's another great story. Bea didn't want to talk to him because she said that she'd had enough of talking about the Golden Girls, but Colucci guilted her into it by saying that Betty White had given him two interviews when Betty hasn't yet spoke to him), she touched upon the jokes about Dorothy's looks.

She said that when they made jokes about Blanche being a slut or Rose being dumb or Sophia being old, it didn't hit the actresses as personal because Rue wasn't a slut, Betty was smart, and Estelle was the same age as Bea. But Dorothy looks like Bea and she took those jokes very personally.

When the show switched writers in the fifth season, it's very clear the "Dorothy is ugly" jokes almost went away entirely. There were a few about Dorothy's height but that's about it.

R117 Betty aged very mildly during the show's run. If you watch an episode in the first season and then one in the final season you can tell but it's very subtle. She looks a little heavier in season 7 and has more lines around her eyes. But nothing like Rue who I think ages the worst on the show (though she actually looks her best in Season 7 because she lost a lot of weight and I think had something done to her face).

They darkened/softened Betty's hair color the last season or two, but yeah, other than that, she looked pretty much the same throughout the entire series. Bea looked the same from S1-3, then looked different each subsequent season. Rue changed her hair color and really see-sawed her weight throughout the series.

Rue looks her best during the final season and the worst in season three when she had the big 80s perm hair thing going on. Betty looks the same the whole run, I think though she does get a little thicker around the middle in the final two seasons.

Bea looks her best during seasons 4 and 5. I liked the longer hair because I think it softened her face a bit. However in season 6 and 7 her hair looks like a giant white helmet.

It's a disgrace they didn't win Golden Globes

Rue gained a ton of weight in season 2. She barely looks like the same person from season 1, when she was svelte and trim.

She looks fabulous here

[quote] It's a disgrace they didn't win Golden Globes

They HAD golden globes, though.

I thought Bea looked the worst season 4 - she had clearly just gotten a face lift and that hair/wig whatever was such a feeble attempt to disguise it. She also had gained back some of the weight by then.

Betty has always looked the same LOL, although I also noticed her hair looked yes yellow/fake the last couple of seasons, and thus better. She’s always been a bit thick around the middle, but probably did gain a little bit of weight as the seasons went on. Her weight has been remarkably consistent throughout her career, however (on the thin side of average, basically) which probably factors a lot into why she’s lived so long.

Rue was lucky if she looked the same within the same episode, let alone from season to season. She was pretty thin season one but she also looked the oldest that season (and she has absolutely terrible skin, she must have had some kind of dermabrasion going forward).

LESS yellow*

I think they may have gone too far with some of the insults to Doorothy but essentially I think she was meant to be the sort of ugly duckling that is secretly beautiful. That was part of the appeal of Dorothy, what made you root for her and it never to me came of as particularly mean spirited because it was so ott. Perhaps if Bea had really been an uggo then I might have felt worse but I just thought it was funny and ridiculous how they treated her like The Elephant women when it was clearly not the case and that is certainly not how men viewed her either. In a way, Blance's delussions about her age/weight etc were much less appealing than what Dorothy got. Blanche had the face but her body was...not the best out of the 3, I will say that.

Blanche had a little barrel body with flat tits. Frazzled hair.

I watched GG in reruns only. GG reruns seemed to be running on a couple different channels and the seasons got all mixed up. I never noticed the changing looks of the Girls. I do remember Dorothy talking about having had an eye lift. I do remember Betty White always wearing the exact same style of dress (shirt dress belted at waist).

The writers should have had more respect for Bea. Frankly, the Rose character was a waste of time. Sophia was funny, but I don't think the character was absolutely necessary.

Dorothy and Rue were the necessary elements. Dorothy had zingers but she did play the straight woman a lot of the time. People underestimate and undervalue the straight man.

Jesus, r127, proofread!

Dorothy correcting entries on Kevin's cast: And there is no K in Victory.

Christopher Lloyd is sexy as hell.

Didn’t Rue have breast cancer during the series?

R125 Rue actually talks about Bea's different look in her autobiography. Bea didn't get a facelift during the run of Golden Girls. During the hiatus between Seasons 3 and 4, Bea did a TV movie called "My First Love. " The hair and makeup artist for that film wanted to give Bea a different looks from what she had on the Golden Girls, some more gentle and feminine. They combed her hair out down over her ears rather than back as she had it on Golden Girls, and used more natural tones in her makeup. Bea loved it and the hair and makeup artist was hired (at Bea's insistence) for Golden Girls.

Beatrice sure was homely!

So are you in anything backless.

Why didn't they bring back Lisa Jane Persky as Kate? She was much better than annoying Deena Freeman. Did Bea hate working with Lisa Jane?

R136, see THAT I did take issue with, it's one thing for your friends to take jabs at you, but your own freaking mother? Seemed a tad much.

r137, maybe they decided while they were recasting Dennis they might as well recast Kate? Original Dennis was so young and dorky it might have been hard to take him seriously in relatively heavy subject matter, or as a cheater, (or as someone you'd want to see Dorothy giving that big speech to). And an older Dennis might require an older-seeming Kate. (Persky was older, but read younger.)

That recasting always did seem a bit weird to me too though, as did most of the family recastings.

Worst recasting was Kirsten. I mean, what were they thinking with that ginger they hired in season 7. She looked like she could be more Dorothy's daughter than Rose's. No way was she swimming in a Norwegian genetic pool.

True. It's not like they needed a new actress for that one (unless the original wasn't available). Kirsten was a bitch the first time we saw her and she was a bitch again there.

Technically not a recasting, since we hadn't seen her before, but I also hated the Janet casting in those episodes. She was way too young (we met her 16 year old son in the first season! She wasn't old enough to have a 16-year-old then, let alone 7 years earlier!), wasn't believably Southern, and wasn't cold or angry enough for someone we'd been told for 7 years hated Blanche.

The Becky recast was awful too. Did they ever explain how she lost all that weight?

I just sat AT Becky.

R134 wow thanks for the info. Did Rue ever talk about her changing looks on the show?

Rue looked terrible in S1. It was strange that she was supposed to be the slut. They didn’t know how to dress or light anyone.

Sophia’s nasty comments being tolerated was explained by her having a stroke. Whether or not she was that insensitive when she was a young mother to Dorothy is unclear.

In flashbacks, Sophia spoke her mind in a blunt, pragmatic way. If she had also been cruel at times, that would explain Dorothy behaving later as an adult like someone who had had her wings clipped.

For r138 ^

This will come in alot handier than those pearl earrings........ the next time I'm lost in the woods with a stack of pancakes.

Sophia was a disgrace. Just because you have a stroke doesn't make you so nasty and cruel.

I don’t disagree with you, r149.

Take it up with the writers. They played fast and loose with the stroke excuse.

Sophia was more like a sitcom version of Livia Soprano.

Her kids were broken.

Dorothy: Cut or Uncut?

Does anyone have any other suggestions how they could have improved Blanche and Dorothy's appearances on the show?

[quote]This will come in alot handier than those pearl earrings

Groan.

[quote]Sophia was more like a sitcom version of Livia Soprano.

And she was based on Livia from "I, Claudius".

[quote]No way was she swimming in a Norwegian genetic pool.

They were Swedish, not Norwegian.

R145, I always suspected they were trying to make Rue look older in season 1 to cover the fact that she was a decade younger than Bea and Betty, to make her fit more with the older woman concept. Rue was only 51 in Season 1, but Blanche was clearly supposed to be older (her grandson David was 14, which technically would have been possible if both Blanche and Janet got married at 17 or 18, but works better if she's older). Kind of like how on Maude they deliberately gave her terrible makeup at first because Maude and Vivian were supposed to have gone to college together, but when Vivian became a regular she had a "face-lift" at the beginning of season 2 and Rue could be herself.

I mean,, that old lady dress she wore on her date with Dirk and the terrible makeup in that episode--yikes.

But when season 2 kicked off with Blanche only just going through menopause, they just went with her real age.

The discussion above about appearance and weight is interesting because Rue lived the shortest life of the GG's, while Betty has lived the longest.

"It's a disgrace they didn't win Golden Globes"

The show won GG three times for best comedy series, the Emmy, twice, for a comedy series, and each of the four ladies won Emmys.

[quote] that would explain Dorothy behaving later as an adult like someone who had had her wings clipped.

Like her bird on a stick?

R158 that's not the point. Rue, Bea and maybe Betty also deserved to each have a Globe

One of worst on-screen performances I've ever seen was the Phil funeral episode where Sophia breaks down with her "my baby..." speech. Estelle's performance was embarrassing.

I love Sophia but yeah EG was NOT a dramatic actress.

They dressed Rue in sacks on S1. So unflattering

Rue was probably the best actress of the bunch.

R144 Rue does touch upon her weight lost between seasons 6 and 7. Apparently she lost something like 30 pounds and she felt it was the best she looked but that it was impossible to maintain and she was miserable as hell because she was hungry all the time. Rue points to this episode (though she didn't actually find this episode funny at all) as where she think she looks the best, specifically this off the shoulder outfit.

[quote] Rue points to this episode (though she didn't actually find this episode funny at all)

I love little tidbits like this.

Is this from her book “My First Five Husbands”?

I think Betty was objectively the prettiest and most attractive of the four. Not that she was a beauty queen, but she has a prettiness and softness to her that the other three lacked.

Kirsten #2. Godawful casting.

Estelle Getty got a facelift at some point (in real life).

Every single one of their pussys stunk!

R165 funny I read that book and I guess my memory is failing me because I don’t remember any of this - I do remember some of her inaccuracies though - like when she said the Merril episode was from season 1.

R167 I agree - she looked so much prettier with her natural dark hair though - or even the in between color hair she had on MTM (which was light enough to cover greys if that was the issue).

I still think Bea got a facelift before season 4 - her face looked extremely tight and stretched. It settled a bit in the seasons after that.

I agree that Bea looked drastically different between seasons 3 and 4, and it wasn't just the hairstyle change. Her face did seem much tighter and less harsh. She looked refreshed. It was really good work, but she did look different. To me she looked old "lady-ish" for the first time in the final season. She just seemed more frail, and that helmet hairdo did her no favors.

I think it was an eye job. The skin around the corners of her eyes were tight.

[quote] The skin around the corners of her eyes were tight.

Oh, dear.

Was it supposed to be some inside joke that Rose was borderline retarded, but her family were all really smart? I mean her flat-chested daughter went to Oxford, and her conniving slut sister (not the blind one) was a noted floutist.

R172 that was her chronic fatigue

No, it wasn’t. Dr Budd dismissed that.

And we saw his wife react twice, so we know it’s true.

R165 Why did Rue not like that episode? Because the was dressing a cross dresser?

The actor who played the cross-dressing baseball player was super-handsome and hot. I forgot his name, but he appeared in a lot of episodic TV in the 80s and 90s and always caught my attention.

It must be the schmaltz police r178 r179.

r165, interestingly enough, in the Colucci book she says she did find it funny.

"RUE McCLANAHAN: I liked doing this takeoff on Bull Durham, because I found the comedy in it very funny. They dressed me the way Susan Sarandon had been dressed in the movie, with her off-the-shoulder sweater. The problem is I had never been any good at softball. So all week, I practiced hitting with our stage manager Kent Zbornak—because I was going to have to tape this scene, and make it look like I hit what could be a home run. I was going to have to swing convincingly, and really whack that thing. And it turns out I did hit the damn thing, on the very first take. I didn’t hit it very hard; I think it would have been only a base hit. But that was a real victory for me."

r179 Tim Thomerson

I agree that Bea looks different but I don't actually think she got work done. If you look at pictures of Bea in Season 3 and then look at season 4 she still sags in all the same places and has the same bags under eyes.

In season 4 Bea brought in her own makeup artist whom she had worked with on a TV movie and they went with a softer palette for Bea's face which I actually think makes her face look less "shadowed" which decreases the look of wrinkles. Also Golden Girls changed sound stages between seasons 3 and 4 and while the sets were moved to the new location, they got a new lighting setup, one that was more "flattering" to the ladies. You can actually tell the set looks "softer" from season four onward.

R169 Betty said in an interview that Estelle got a facelift after season one and before taping for season 2 started.

She should have invested in acting lessons instead.

Estelle had the oldtimers disease. She couldn’t remember shit.

r186, she remembered shit. It's her lines that she couldn't remember.

We always talk about how Estelle couldn't remember her lines and used cue cards a lot, but Bea also clearly used cue cards from time to time. The most noticeable is the chronic fatigue syndrome episode when she gives that speech in the end. But there were other episodes in the later season when it was very visible that Bea was reading a line....the "Bull Duck" joke you can tell Bea is reading it off a card, but the camera cuts away just as it starts to get obvious.

Well, obviously Bea Arthur had work done prior to starting Golden Girls in 85. Go look at a clips from the awful "Amanda's By The Sea" show she did in 83...she obviously had some work done between that show and the start of GG. And, she lost lost weight.

The show is great but I think it really only works and became a beloved classic because of Bea. The other three are terrific too but Bea was the only one of them who ever really succeeded as a comedic lead. As wonderful as Betty White is, she has always worked best in ensembles and in support to a central character. Same thing with Rue. Bea was the anchor both with the character and with her own charisma and stage presence.

Golden Palace was a silly idea to begin with (why even bother with the dumb hotel bit?) but that show floundered because it needed Bea (or a strong central character) for the other 3 to react to.

How did they afford a decent looking hotel to begin with, after all their many financial struggles?

.,.,

R190=Sid LeBass jerking off to his DeKimmel artwork.

Dorothy was such a liberal grandstander I was saddened by the episode where she freaked out about her son’s slightly older black lover. And then the writers yucked it up with the lover’s family freaking out that their girl was marrying a honkey. Everyone’s A Little But Racist Sometimes Hee Haw.

Like this is the one time Dorothy discriminates? I skip that episode every time.

Why did Bea shit on Betty’s dressing room floor?

Rue looked dumpy in the peach colored dress her and bea bought at the same time. The dress was ugly but it fit bea much better. Also dance marathon flashback they put rue in a dress that emphasized her barrel body with no waist and flat tits.

R193 I believe it was made clear that Dorothy's issue was her DIL's age (and she wasn't just a little older, it was about a 20 year difference) but I do agree that how the black family was made to handle it was..not good. More than anything it came off like the "superior white woman" Dorothy didn't care about race but the lowlier black family did..

Meh R189, to me GG was always an ensemble piece and meant to be. The show needed the 3 of them equally to work..EG less so imo but she did bring in something as well..

Exactly, if Rue has been the one missing from The Golden Palace it wouldn't have worked either.

I think Sophia and Rose were the most replaceable of the four as they were more archetypes.

I didn’t think the black family in that episode was lowlier I thought they were upper class and thought Michael was a flake (which he was). Lorraine talked about being married to the perfect boy next door at one point.

Boy?

Both Dorothy's kids were not great. Pity the baby she had with Stan as a teen didn't make it.

R192 I think Dorothy had a problem with the age difference, not that they were different races. That was the joke - because the black family didn't have a problem with the age but only with the race.

[quote]Why did Bea shit on Betty’s dressing room floor?

Because who else would have eaten a chunk of it, Rose, thinking it was some left over sparhuven krispy, the Scandinavian midnight snack that smells so God awful and taste so good?

In the episode where Michael fuck's Rose's stupid flat-chested daughter, Dorothy says he is 29. In the episode where he marries old lady Lorraine, Dorothy says he is 22. Kate looks late 20s/early 30s. So where is the supposedly 40-year-old kid that Dorothy was pregnant with when she married Stan? None of the ages ever made sense to me.

In some of the flashback episodes from when they lived In Brooklyn during the 50s, Dorothy makes reference to her kids. The oldest would’ve been born in 1946.

Also they finally showed Janet in the last season and she was played by a 25 year old actress who at that point would’ve had a 21 year old son.

When ginger Kirsten appeared in the final season, Dorothy and Rose both mentioned that she had two daughters. In season 1, it was said that she only had one, that little brat Charlie.

Rose had 5 and Blanche had 6 kids. I’m thinking if they didn’t have the continuity amnesia issues they would have no more than 3-4 kids. Also rose calls her parents in later seasons Gunter and alma Nylund which was her married name.

The first versions of their kids/relatives were better ones and looked more like them then the subsequent ones.

Fat Becky was very good casting. You could believe she was Rue's daughter. The skinny actress who debuted in season 5 looked like Rue.

Well, some very liberal people do have their "blind spots". No one is perfect. Cher was the one who had a hard time with Chaz's sexuality, not Sonny.

And, many Black people, especially older ones, aren't thrilled with interracial marriages/dating. Same thing goes with any other ethnic/racial group.

If Dorothy had disapproved of Lorraine because she was black, she'd be branded a racist. However, it was ok for the black mother to have a problem with Michael being white and not be called out on her prejudice. Black people get a pass on "reverse racism."

The Golden Girls is rife with continuity errors which actually wasn't uncommon for shows of its era. People have already talked about the number and age of the girls children, but another funny one is that girls themselves actually get younger as the show goes on.

Rose is 55 in the first season and is still referred to as being in her 50s by the end of the show's run. Dorothy should be about 58/60 when the show starts, but Dorothy is referred to as being under 60 by Sophia the whole run. A Sophia starts the series at 80 but somehow by season 7 she is only 83.

In one episode, Sophia refers to Rose being born because the rhythm method was popular in the 1920s, which would have made Rose in her 60s in the 1980s.

Also, the Dorothy/Stan timeline makes zero sense. The implication is that they divorced in 1984 after 38 years of marriage. In one episode, she mentions that having sex with Stan before marriage was her part of the war effort. But WWII would've been over before they hooked up.

R212 In the first season episode where Rose loses her job (that happens twice during the series), she says she is 55, but that seems too young because for the first season it's established Charlie has been dead for 15 years which means he would've died when Rose was only 40. Later in the show it's implied Charlie died a few years before the show stars.

As for Dorothy/Stan, for most of the show's run it was established that Rose/Dorothy/Blanche had been lived together for three years before the show started (meaning they would have moved in together in 1982) That means Dorothy likely married Stan in the early 1940s. About season 5 or 6, the girls had only been living together for the run of the show.

So if Stan knocked Dorothy up in the early 1940s, where is their 40-something year old kid? Even though their ages were inconsistent, it was established that neither Mike nor Kate was over 30.

R212. Technically the line was "I went to a drive-in with Stanley. He said he was being shipped off to Korea and would probably die and it would mean so much. That was my part of the war effort." So it was a reference to the Korean War, not WWII...which makes even less sense since it hadn't been 38 years since the Korean War in 1986 (or 85 when the episode was made since it was held back), so she couldn't have gotten pregnant because of it, been married for 38 years, and divorced by then.

Of course in the first Uncle Angelo episode their 40th anniversary would have been in 1988.

And in An Illegitimate Concern they give her wedding date as June 1, 1949, which doesn't fit anything.

Most plausible is the first baby died. How else could Dorothy have roomed with Jean in College?

Possibly while Stan was in Korea on they temporarily separated in the early 50s. Then they had Kate and Michael later.

[quote]The show is great but I think it really only works and became a beloved classic because of Bea. The other three are terrific too but Bea was the only one of them who ever really succeeded as a comedic lead. As wonderful as Betty White is, she has always worked best in ensembles and in support to a central character. Same thing with Rue. Bea was the anchor both with the character and with her own charisma and stage presence.

R189, you make a good point about Bea being the focal point of the show. There are several other things which back this up:

1) Bea Arthur got top billing

2) Dorothy usually sits in the center of the kitchen table

3) The show ends when Dorothy leaves to marry Leslie Nielsen.

R217 That still does not mean that the show only worked with Bea as the lead. Had she not sat in the middle of the fucking kitchen, gotten top blling and had a different ending, it would not have been any less popular. Because it was an ensemble piece.*

R217 They put Bea to the middle because she was then able to turn her head and give her famous look.

i think Bea was arguably the most accomplished of the three at that time. She starred in an iconic TV series and had a lead actress Emmy. Betty was best known as a supporting player and game show fixture around that time, while Rue had sort of bounced around from failed series to failed series after Maude before she hit with GG, and she had never won an Emmy. So the billing order makes sense.

As for the table scenes, having Bea in the middle made sense. First off, she was the tallest of the three, and sitting in the middle balanced them out better. Plus, Dorothy was the "sane" one who needed react to Rose and Blanche, so it made sense from that standpoint.

I wouldn't say that the show only worked because of Bea. The show had great writing and the ladies became so ionic in those roles that you take one out of the equation and the show just doesn't work as well. That being said, Dorothy is the anchor character, she is the one who grounds the show in some level of reality. This is why Golden Palace didn't work because they ultimately lost that anchor and often Blanche would have to play the "sane one" and that just didn't work.

[quote] In the episode where Michael fuck's Rose's stupid flat-chested daughter,

Oh, dear!

Kristen was the best looking of all the daughters. The original one anyway. Let her be stupid, she's earned it.

^NM, I got confused with Bridget, she's the one Stan junior fucked.

Speaking of that episode, I never got why the 4 women acted like her and Michael had an orgy on top of the wicker furniture or something. They were freakin adults, they got horny so they fucked. Acting like they disgraced their family and theiir home was absolutely ridiculous.

Fat Becky had a huge arse!

Rue should have won her second Emmy for season 6, when George returns, or season 7, I want to be loved by you. Not even nominated!

Which episodes should Bea have been nominated for (but wasn't) in the later seasons?

Did it piss them off that Betty and Estelle kept getting nominated whilst they were left out?

R226 According to Rue in her book, Bea was "quietly" furious when Betty won the Emmy that firs year, and didn't congratulate Rue when she won despite their long history together. When Bea won the third year, Betty said Rue afterwards, "can we breath now?" Rue absolutely should've been nominated for that season 7 episode, but honestly the Dorothy episodes are basically forgettable in the last two seasons.

Rue did not deserve an Emmy nom for seasons 6 or 7. No way.

I also thought Rue was excellent in the season 5 episode where George's bastard son with the mouthwatering bulge shows up on her doorstep. She was great with the OTT sex stuff, but she really excelled in the poignant episodes they gave her, more so than Bea and Estelle. Betty was also great in these types of scenes. She was outstanding in the birthday vignette episode where she's in her kitchen in St. Olaf on her final birthday "talking to" Charlie.

Well first of all, Bea was nothing if not a master reactor, and without having Betty and Rue to play off of...what would have been left.

Bea may have preferred Maude where everyone was her subordinate but really she was that much better when she was playing off of actors at or close to her equal. And that’s why GG will always be a better show.

I feel like Bea was "phoning in" a lot of her performances during the final two seasons of the show. Even Rue says in her book, that by the sixth season Bea was so unhappy on the show that she was shocked that Bea signed on for a 7th season. This was one of the reasons why Debbie Reynolds guest starred in season six. She was being tested as a possible replacement for Arthur.

Anyone know why Alex Rocco didn't reprise his role of Glenn in season 5 that he had played in season 1? Was he unavailable? I normally love Jerry Orbach, was he was godawful in the role and had zero chemistry with Bea.

He was unavailable. He was starring in "The Famous Teddy Z" on CBS at the time (the series had been pulled, but was still taping episodes), for which he won an Emmy.

Thank you, r233.

R231 watching Bea give zero fucks kind of worked for me though - she can do so much with so little. Conversely, a little Bea can go a long way.

All the girls are funny but Bea is my favorite. However, she was probably a bitch off set. I'll never understand why, in an interview, she lied about being in the Marines. We all know she was in the Marines and why she got kicked out - but she just lied.

It's interesting that all 4 of the Golden Girls won an Emmy for the show. It doesn't usually work that way that each of the main cast wins an Emmy. Did the Emmy voters deliberately try to make sure that each of them won?

"The Golden Girls" is one of four comedy shows, where all the main actors won Emmy Awards. The others are "All in the Family", "Will & Grace", and "Schitt's Creek".

She looks like an old lesbian.

r238, Schitt's Creek doesn't really count, because it had 5 regulars. Emily Hampshire was a credited regular cast member for all 6 seasons. All in the Family, Will & Grace, and TGG are the only shows where the entire credited cast won Emmys for their roles.

[quote] "can we breath now?"

Oh, dear! Did she spell it correctly in her book?

^^ Fuck off you boring idiot…

You must be new here.

I don’t think you’re going to enjoy it much.

R231 Yeah Bea's performance become even more "underplayed" in later seasons but I would say Bea half-assing it, is better than many actors giving it their all. Allegedly, the only reason Bea did a 7th season was down to money. NBC apparently offered her a percentage of the syndication profits which is why she stayed.

It wasn't exactly like she was fighting fires on a rig in the gulf of Mexico!

Poor Esther Weinstock.

You can sometimes find Dorothy hand gliding high above the Florida Everglades.

Sophia used to go to Blanche's boudoir and release her noxious rippers, right before B got back from The Rusty Anchor with a luvva

Reportedly, Bea was an alcoholic and drank on set. I think she may have used cue cards at some point. To her credit, it's not apparent that she's drunk / doesn't know her lines.

Mary Tyler Moore admits to drinking / active alcoholism during the run of the MTM Show, but claims she waited until quitting time before drinking. I don't believe it, but to her credit, she did seem sober all the time.

[quote]Poor Esther Weinstock.

You mean the girl Sophia grew up with?

Speaking of idiotic plot inconsistencies.

And then there was Sophia's mother, who spoke perfect unaccented English.

R237 All in the Family and W&G, however, all of the actors were in different categories. What was unprecedented about GG was that 3 of the Girls were in the same (and most competitive) category. So it does seem like the Academy just reserved those 3 seasons to make sure each got her award.

The inconsistencis always bothered me. Not enough to dislik the show but I do think I would have enjoyed it even more had there been more continuity.

All six of The Simpsons main voice actors have won Emmys, too.

Ever notice how few current friends Blanche, Rose and Dorothy had? Not recurring characters or mentions of plans.

R254 They had a tight friend circle of each other...how many more friends did women in their 50s/60s really need?

Blanche wasn't really the kind of woman to have lots of female friends...she wouldn't have had time for them or would have seen them as competition. She was a dame who preferred to be around men.

Rose was a sweet dingbat. No one really likes being around those types for too long...they're infuriating. In real life, Rose might have have friends from her church or from doing volunteer work but that's about it.

Dorothy was a loner with a self-esteem issues but also a motor mouth. They don't tend to have tons of close friends.

They were lucky to have each other...which is one of the big reasons so many people love this show. A slut, a dingbat and a motormouth can all be pals with each other! It's a gay man's dream come true!

So Betty was Emmy nominated for:

S5 Rose fights back - she gets a job in TV after she loses Charlie's pension

S6 Once In St Olaf - she meets her real dad while volunteering at hospital

S7 Dateline Miami - bad date clipshow. Why?!

[quote] You can sometimes find Dorothy hand gliding

What is this, some sort of new technique I’m not aware of?

Who would win if Maude & Dorothy got into a death defying swordfight ⚔️

Who would end up on TOP?

r256, Sigh. I know I've said this too many times but...performers aren't judged by an episode in the preliminary round. They may say what their episode is, but the nomination round is open voting. Do you think all the Emmy members watch all the hundreds of episodes of every eligible performer when voting? It's only after they receive the nomination that actors were judged on their submission episode.

So she wasn't nominated for those episodes. She was nominated, then judged by those episodes in the final round.

R259 I know but she should have been nominated! Betty never reached Rue's performance levels

^Respectfully disagree. Betty was truly outstanding when Rose was given a poignant storyline. I mentioned above the faux flashback where she celebrates her first birthday after Charlie's death. She was absolutely flawless and played it beautifully understated. I love Bea, but her acting tended to be highly stylized and she would've devoured the scenery had she been given that vignette to play.

I love Dorothy and Bea but her best performance was her rant against Stan in the 1st episode. Aside from what I don't recall anything else too memorable. Very good performances but not great.

I agree Rose's best episode was the cake one, though I do think she was great in the episode where she freaked out over the burglary, and also I really liked the episode with Jean the lesbian. Very understated but beautifull.

Blanche definitely had the most moments. I think her best was her conversation with Janet over the phone, Still makes me verklempt

They each had wildly different acting styles, but they complemented each other perfectly. Betty went right for the gag/punchline. Rue was very much a method actress, and Bea was playing some augmented /heightened reality, Their styles were so divergent, but really meshed so well. I would say that Rue gave the most consistently best performances of the three leads. I found Estelle/Sophia mostly awful and intolerable by season 3.

Actually Bea was also great during the CDhronic fatigue epsodes though for some reason, I didn't find the story particularly compelling.

For everyone ragging on Bea, the irony is that Dorothy is the epitome of most of the gay men that post here: bitchy, inability to suffer fools easily, overly emotionally dependent on mommy, highly intelligent, physically unattractive, voice and mannerisms more closely associated with the opposite sex.

Did the girls still earn money from repeat fees after the show ended? It must be one of the most repeated/syndicated shows ever so it must still earn a ton of money for someone.

My favorite Dorothy moment is when they were arrested for prostitution, and she claimed to be an ex-con from the men's prison.

Yes, Bea was very talented reading off cue cards in the chronic fatigue episode.

R259 but why would she choose to submit that episode? Did she want to lose?

I actually think Bea won for one of her best episodes (the season 3 one with Uncle Angelo) - it was the perfect submission. Herb Edelman was equally good.

Rue was consistently great with dramatic episodes but Betty could be hit or miss. She’s cringeworthy in the burglary one, but very good in the birthday one (as mentioned) and did a nice understated job in the episode with Jean. Bea was a terrible cryer I agree.

I thought Betty was very good in the S4 drug dependency episode. As a standalone episode, it was very well written, but it makes zero sense from a series continuity standpoint.

Pulling off the Rose character is really difficult. I mean, she convincingly and lovingly played a dimwit. That could have been such an unbelievable and annoying character.

Betty did a beautiful job.

That pills addiction episode was a "very special episode," but maybe I should have a better attitude about it.

JMO, but I always hated the Betty White character and didn't find it cute at all.

The St. Olaf stories became unbearable after a while. The writers must've realized that, because it's almost as if they had Dorothy and Blanche represent the audience when they also found them unbearable.

"That's what the crow said!"

[bold]"GET OUT!!!"[/bold]

I loved the Saint Olaf stories...the stupider the better.

The Pill episode. much like the CF syndrome one were clear Emmy bait but they sort of left me meh. When they tried too hard in the "Very special episode" department they failed, meanwhile they could have super sweet, or emotional and compelling moments when they weren't trying.

I always wanted to know how Rose became radioactive that one time.

R276 Charlie bought her anal beads made out of radium

R277 well they did fuck every night and morning since their wedding, I could see them wanting to kick things up a notch.

R278 Her pussy must have been as loose as Blanche's morals.

I love how we're still dissecting the minutiae of GG 30-35 years after its original run.

It’s sad r280

I remember being transfixed to the screen when Rose dropped to the floor while making a phone call. It was scary to hear her yell “call an ambulance “!!

Sophia was the show’s worst character.

Estelle's acting got progressively worse with each new season. The lazy writing for her did her no favors. They basically turned her into a quip machine. She was absolutely cringeworthy when the script called for dramatic acting (for example, Phil's funeral). I was embarrassed for her.

Oh, god...the burglary episode was terrible and Betty was AWFUL in it! Her whiny hysteria was so fake.

I'm not a fan of any of the "very special episode" shows...so cringy. The show is beloved because it features good actresses playing fun characters and giving them funny scenes/bits to play.

Dorothy and Blanche were the best characters and Rose and Sophia less so. A little Rose went a long way and I'd argue that the Rose centric episodes are some of the least interesting. And, Sophia was over used as a snarky joke machine. They also "cuted her up" too much and her costumes and styling were idiotic. Only in film/tv do you see old lady characters wearing little lace collars which real old women haven't worn since FDR was president. I also hated the way Sophia could be hyper cunty to Dorothy.

Agreed that Dorothy and Blanche were the most interesting characters, though I do think Betty gave some very heartfelt performances, certainly more than Bea ever did or was capable of. Betty imbued what could've been a throwaway character with so much sweetness and warmth, it was hard to dislike Rose, even they had her saying the stupidest thing or relating an awful St. Olaf story.

I most enjoyed Rose when she WASN'T nice and sweet, like when they emphasized how competitive she was or the rare times she would get a good insult in at the others.

The bit with Rose's paternity was so stupid..first with Don Ameche then the truly moronic episode with Bob Hope.

I love Maguritte the house keeper studying to become a lawyer!

I like Dorothy’s mother-in-law played by Bernice Clifton

Is this the show with Eve Arden and Kaye Ballard living next door to each other?

Sophia: I found someone perfect for you. He knows your shoe size and doesn't care.

Agree with R285 and R286 both!

Anyone know if specific episodes are submitted for Golden Globe consideration?

r292, no, the Golden Globes/HFPA just vote for who they like. No specific episode submissions.

I'm a little surprised at the dislike for the break-in episode, it's probably my favorite one from the first season. So many good lines and moments in it, and I'm convinced the producers of Grace and Frankie ripped off the storyline for one of the episodes in their third season.

R: "They were probably looking for drugs!" D: "We have Maalox and estrogen. Now how many junkies have gas and hot flashes?"

Then there was Dorothy throwing the home alarm salesman out, Rose shooting Blanche's vase (but not her date Lester!) and Sophia winning the Scrabble game against Dorothy with the non-word 'disdam'.

R294 I just watched it yesterday and I completely agree, it's one of the funniest. Blanche's maze story, Rose going ape shit and shooting the ugly vase (as opposed to Lester, to Blanche's chagrin), Sofia's quips about the vase and hiding the broken bits. Even the story at the end of Rose drop kicking the parking lot attendant who was just trying to give her keys back...I laughed my ass off.

"The dog, I think he ate your mother!!!!!"

I love these crazy old bitches.

I love the break-in episode too. Rose bringing home the gun in her yarn bag is such a Rose thing to do. I think Susan Harris wrote that episode.

I don't blame anyone who loves or hates the Break-In episode. Its strength is definitely the script, which was written by Susan Harris as r297 mentioned. Its weakness is the direction by Paul Bogart. It was the second episode filmed after the pilot (the first was "Job Hunting," which again had a strong script--that first cheesecake scene where they discuss losing their virginities!--and subpar direction--so many weird close-ups!), and he would be fired two episodes later. It's widely reported he didn't get along with Betty or the writers. She's gone on record saying the way he was directing her to play Rose--big and loud--was not what Jay Sandrich had established with her in the pilot and she wasn't comfortable with it, and just like in Job Hunting, some of the serious moments are off because he's going for big "All in the Family" style hysterics (the show that he directed for a long time). Betty's giving it her best, but yeah, she doesn't seem entirely comfortable (and that Rose--and the Job Hunting one--feels different than the one she would be in emotional scenes later in the series). In the Colucci book, the writers say he was more going more for the drama than the jokes. Plus that scene in the parking garage is really badly filmed.

R298 I remember reading about that - if Betty was the one to get him fired then her instincts were right. He was all wrong for the show and that’s why her moments are off in those episodes. But you’re right the scripts were both very strong,

R298 that parking lot scene felt totally alien to the show, like Rose was going to be raped over the hood of some car. Thanks for the context!

Miami, hot and extremely humid, yet there was Dorothy wearing those ugly white boots. I suppose Bea didn't want the public to see what huge feet she had.

[quote]I love Sophia but yeah EG was NOT a dramatic actress.

What? I can’t believe you think the co-star of “Stop of My Mom Will Shoot” wasn't a dramatic actress.

[quote]Miami, hot and extremely humid, yet there was Dorothy wearing those ugly white boots. I suppose Bea didn't want the public to see what huge feet she had.

She wears sandals in a few episodes.

... but it's always the same pair.

Well, sure, r304, she was a substitute teacher living on a limited budget. She couldn't afford more than one pair!

Seriously though, I did appreciate the way they'd have Dorothy and Rose wearing the same clothes in different episodes, because real people would wear the same clothes, especially older women on a budget.

I was looking for photos from the DVD signing they did in NYC, and instead came across photos from the Season 1 DVD launch in 2004, which I didn't know about. I wish there was video, but all I could find was a Dutch news program covering it, weirdly enough. But this is a nice photo of them with director Terry Hughes.

And I know Bea and Rue weren't close, but this is nice.

Queens

R4 Blanche explained that Doug was on her A-list because he was a judge and she hadn't paid a speeding ticket in months. Plus, he was fun to be around.

The mystery is why was Dorothy so interested in him? Blanche gave her the pick of any of her many, many, MANY suitors.

Anyway, the point was that I was thinking about how Bea seemingly didn't like being associated with the show, or did so only reluctantly (like how she didn't appear at the Paley Center event with Betty and Rue), so I had thought the DVD signing and the TV Land Awards were the only things she appeared at with them. So it was nice to see there was another event where they were together.

The DVD signing:

R307 Terry Hughes was a silver fox! He must have been very handsome as a younger man.

r312, Indeed.

Their final appearance at the TV Land Awards

Video

She would pass away less than a year later, but at 86, she was still sharp and active and looking pretty good. She and obviously Betty really had remarkable longevity. And side-eye game was on point.

Rue was fluent in German but I don't recall that she ever used it in any episode. Betty is a church-attending Christian so I wonder if Bea also didn't like about Betty. Christians tend to be preachy.

Not really R317...goddamn what a stupid and ignorant thing to say.

Bea’s baby toe looked permanently squished in those sandals. Squished not from those particular sandals, but from years of too-narrow shoes.

Bea had the ugly feets. She should have kept them covered up like she always kept her fat ass covered up.

R316 Rue said Bea was fragile there and she and Betty knew something was wrong but Bea didn’t say anything about her health.

R317 Rue had two majors theatre and German. Rather unusual combination.

R318 Grow up, goddamn what a nasty response. You must be a Christian too LOL

R323 I'm not R318 but s/he's right. Not every 'church-attending Christian' is a Bible thumper. My grandparents, who both died within the past decade and were Mainline Protestant, regularly attended church and its functions but never proselytized to me nor to anyone else, for that matter. Evangelicals, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand...

[quote] Rue had two majors theatre and German. Rather unusual combination.

What makes you say that?

R324 - Even those extremes aren't necessarily an issue. At work I knew several devout Christians, plus a Fundamentalist (snakes!) and a Jehovah's Witness. Not one of them ever pulled the Jesus Saves crap with me. They all knew I was a gay atheist and we all got along just fine, respecting and appreciating one another's differences.

So Rue was obsessed all things German, and Betty was a rabidly fundamental Christian. No wonder Jewish Bea couldn't stand them.

R327- Betty and Bea were both DYKES, so they did have that in common.

I’m pretty sure (I think I read it on here actually) that Betty’s a member of some very “open” Christian denomination - not Unitarian but something like that. Plus she always been very liberal on the spectrum so I highly doubt there was any issue there.

Actually, I remember something in Rue’s autobiography that Bea used to cross herself before every taping even though she was Jewish and identified as Jewish . Now THAT’S weird.

I read on here that Bea took a shit on Betty’s dressing room floor because Betty was being nice to the audience.

[quote] Her pussy must have been as loose as Blanche's morals.

Eat dirt and die, trash.

Rue's line reading of 'I am Ms. Angie Dickinson' is one of my favorite things ever

Now THIS is the resume of a hospital administrator!

Oh really then why is it on your JOB resumé???

Shady Pines, Ma. Shady Pines.

In her line reading at r334, Bea oddly pronounces it as "rez-you-may."

She's Beatrice f'ing Arthur. She can pronounce it however she wants.

Elaine Stritch would never have pronounced it that way.

Stritch: "Reshz-fuck-MAY! Cunt! Fuck!"

White: Oh... my.

They should have had Mario Lopez reprise his role as Mario Sanchez on Golden Palace, now an early 20s gay-for-pay Miami street hustler who catches Blanche's eye. Mario talks about his time on the Golden Girls.

Here is an even younger Mario with Bea Arthur during the filming of the short lived sitcom A.K.A Pablo, with Paul Rodriguez.

Worth noting, the guy who played his father on the show, to his left, was Arnaldo Santana, first murder victim in Cruising and also Ernie in Scarface. Gorgeous guy (though he had put on some weight at this point) and a great actor, he did some quality gay porn in the late 70's.

[quote] Mario Sanchez, now an early 20s gay-for-pay Miami street hustler who catches Blanche's eye.

Why, that sounds like something I would have written!

She owns it, runs it, and calls the place Roberta's.

[quote] he did some quality gay porn in the late 70's.

Say what now?

r344

A guy I recently started dating has the last name Zbornak! I can not believe it! Dorothy is my world!

Thanks, r345!

R329 Betty was raised in Unity Church but I don't believe she practiced for decades.

r346 Dorothy was named after Kent Zbornak, who was Susan Harris's assistant.

Whose brilliant idea was it to promote Estelle Getty to regular cast member? She was godawful. Her big line in the pilot, "The man is a scuzz ball", got huge laughs, so I guess W/T/H thought they had something special on their hands. A little of Getty/Sophia went a long way. Personally, I would've preferred Coco as a full-time cast member. Unlike Getty, Charles Levin (RIP) was funny and talented.

Coco was such a stereotype though...not that I was offended or anything stupid like that, but I just thought he was a bit cringy.

I'm sure they would've fleshed out the character of Coco had he stayed. Anyway, the other characters were stereotypes too...Blanche, the aging Southern belle complete with all the Southern cliches they attached to her, and Rose, the epitome of the farmer's dumb daughter.

Bea's feet in R316's pic - they’re black and blue. Should have worn her boots.

Face it, Dorothy. Blanche and Rose are limited.

r354, that episode is limited. If they were going to rip off The Mary Tyler Moore Show, they should have come up with a new ending. At the very least, they could have copied the part that would have made sense in the episode's context (dumping the bitch because she was nasty to the protagonist's friend) not the part that didn't (keeping the antisemitic part, and having to come up with a Jewish character just for her to be an asshole to).

(Yes, I'm one of the very few who thinks that episode sucks. A rip-off, and a bad one.)

I partially agree. It's a very entertaining GG episode and one of the more memorable ones, but the anti-semitic thing out of left field just makes no sense and damages an otherwise well-written episode. It would've made more sense for Dorothy to dump her because of her shoddy treatment of "Madge" and Rose and not for some anti-semitic slight. The MTM episode was much more effective, though I thought Mary Frann was absolutely dreadful.

Coco was boring. And, the actor was meh....did he land ANY jokes in the pilot?

And, having his character in the house really would have limited the stories they told.

If Blanche can afford a housekeeper, why would she need to have roommates?

And, elevating the characters up to upper class really wouldn't have played well. By the mid 80s NO ONE but very wealthy people had live in help.

r357, I agree Coco had to go, but it's not really fair to judge his performance by the pilot given that they cut everything about him other than what was absolutely necessary (i.e. someone for Dorothy to rant to in the opening, someone to say who Harry was, someone to let Rose out of the closet after Dorothy locked her in). He didn't land any jokes in the aired version because he didn't have any jokes in the aired version.

My feet have wings, barf bag. (blows a kiss from her pinky finger).

If you watch the pilot closely, it's really a cut and paste mess of scenes with Coco and retaped scenes after Charles Levin was let go spliced together. Rue's hairstyle changes from shot to shot within scenes!

R359, one of my favorite of Bea's (many brilliant) line readings.

Isn't that double episode with Stan and Uncle Angel the one Bea won her Emmy for?

Yes!

Awww Jeeeeeesus!!!

R362 yes - and she won for the right episode imo. On the floor like any dog is still my favorite.

And the ending is sweet (“this ones on the house) without having to call in the schmaltz police.

Stanley, if you're doing what I think you're doing, you're in big trouble.

Probably my favorite GG line ever was when they all had the flu, and Dorothy is on the couch covered in blankets with the cord to a hot water bottle running out. Blanche insists that Dorothy has taken her hot water bottle which is vehemently denied. The Blanche grabs the cord and asks something like, "Well if you don't, then I'd surely like to know what other electrical appliance you have under those blankets with you."

I can't recall the exact words, but the implication was a vibrator and at the time I was both shocked and thought it was hilarious. I think the audience laughed for five minutes straight.

Rose, what do you call a girl who sleeps with a man she's known for exactly one day? I call her a tramp!

R368 that actually always bothered me a bit because you had the great “progressive” Dorothy using the ultimate double standard. Not the greatest episode overall.

r367 Have you ever seen a hot water bottle with an ELECTRIC CORD?

No. The item in question was a HEATiNG PAD.

One of my favorite episodes was when Dorothy played the sheriff in a play.

The hot water bottle / electric cord episode was "Journey to the Center of Attention." When Rue drags Dorothy to the Rusty Anchor and Dorothy takes over the bar with her good singing (Hard Hearted Hannah, etc.). Rue retaliates with a tragic version of "I Want to Be Loved by You."

R371 are you sure the heating pad/cable joke wasn't season 1, "The Flu"?

JTTCOA was Season 7 and Dorothy wasn't sick, just determined to sprawl on the couch and watch TV on a Saturday (?) night!

r367/r372 are correct. The heating pad is from "The Flu."

[quote] Have you ever seen a hot water bottle with an ELECTRIC CORD? No. The item in question was a HEATiNG PAD.

Actually I have never used either because I'm not 80, grandpa.

R369, the script was just being very realistic. Liberal standards go out the window the moment a woman rides her first born son's weiner.

And to be fair to Dorothy, she also gave her son hell.

I just never got why they were so offended that those 2 had sex. They were adults and did it privately.

To be fair, Rose started it, accusing him of seducing Bridget, taking advantage of young girls, saying she was too good for him, and calling him a loser. (It's episodes like this that made it easier to understand how Kirsten was such a bitch. It was hereditary.) Dorothy was just defending her son.

[quote] Liberal standards go out the window the moment a woman rides her first born son's weiner.

Uh, WHAT?

Lol Dorothy and Michael?

Well, to be honest, Michael *was* hot. Come to think of it, how did that sexy guy come from Dorothy and Stan???

Scott Jacoby was cute, but his half-brother (who also appeared in GG), Billy Jayne, was gorgeous. That's Scott below.

Billy Jayne in the 80s, on Golden Girls. I was about that age too at the time. Sigh.

Who was slutty Lucy's mother? Virginia or Charmaine? Or maybe Clayton?

R380 ewww you’re joking

Nope. At 18, I would've cheated on my hot first boyfriend (Alex) with Billy. Or maybe a three-way.

relevant..sort off

R383 he looks like Jason Harvey from The Wonder Years. Pass.

r381, I always figured Charmaine was supposed to be Lucy's mother, since she's the sister who's name-dropped in the episode, when Blanche mentions what kept her in line as a teenager was her big sister Charmaine chasing after her. It only makes sense to bring her up in the context that now Blanche has to keep after her daughter.

It always bugged me how, when the second writing staff came in, they threw out the characterization and pretty much switched Virginia and Charmaine's established personalities. Charmaine would have been more fitting as the disapproving sister in Ebbtide, while Virginia would have made more sense as the sister who was too similar to Blanche and wrote Vixen: Story of a Woman. Plus Barbara Babcock was too young to be the oldest sister. But oh well. No one expects continuity from TGG.

From the "little bald guy" episode mentioned upthread ...

Dorothy: The only thing Eddie and I have in common is under the sheets.

Rose: What's under the sheets, Dorothy?

Dorothy: His cappuccino maker, Rose.

God, what an actor.

R374 What the fuck does age have to do with using a heating pad or a hot water bottle?

I probably had used both of those things by the time I was 6.

I miss my daily GG fix on Lifetime!!

^Duh, sorry. Hallmark.

[quote] I probably had used both of those things by the time I was 6.

You were using hot water bottles and heating pads at age 6? What?

Why did we never hear about any of the women's brothers-in-laws? All three had sisters, right?

Wasn't there an episode where Blanche contemplated a romance with her dead husband's brother? Or am I thinking of another TV show...

r393, Dorothy's sister Gloria was a widow. (She had married rich.)

We met two of Rose's sister, and they both seemed to be unmarried (blind Lily, who didn't seem to have anyone else to take care of her, and Holly who slept with Blanche's boyfriend).

One of Blanche's brothers-in-law tried to sleep with her, we know that much.

Blanche: There was a man, he asked me to sleep with him. I said no. But I knew something greater than my will power was necessary for me to resist him, so I called my sister.

Rose: Did she talk you through it?

Blanche: Oh, better than that. She drove straight over, took him by the throat, she said if he ever tried that again, she'd shoot him through the head.

Dorothy: Just because he made a pass at you?

Blanche: Oh, did I forget to mention that the man was my sister's husband?

r394, yes, George's brother Jamie, who supposedly looked just like him. So when they had George show up a year later they used the same actor, which I always thought was a nice touch.

r393 is my daughter Dorothy. She's an English teacher.

Was Lily a lez? She certainly was a pain in the ass.

Why was Rose the one burdened with caring for blind Lily? They were like 2 of 10 siblings, and their mother Alma was still alive at that point. I mean, sure, Holly was too selfish and narcissistic to care for her properly, but certainly the other siblings could have. That made no sense.

OMG half the kids in my neighborhood are wearing Frieda Claxton masks today.

When did they kill off old Alma? In season 1 she showed up and then in a later season Dorothy asked Rose where Ma was and she said in the St.Olaf cemetery.

Alma got a nasty STI and was never the same

r410 - That didn't mean Alma was dead. She was just patiently waiting -- she never wanted to be a bother.

R402 lots of closeted sluts in that family.

Poor Alma caught the herpes and syphilis from Ben the ex-con. He was plowing more than just her farm's soil.

No, Alma clearly died when she was crushed by the cow she was trying to get in the basket in the front of her bicycle. (j/k that was so dumb.)

Rose: Oh, I remember back in St. Olaf, during a tornado, my mother left the storm cellar to find Toto. Her constant companion and favorite cow.

Dorothy: Why are we nice to her?

Rose: The point is, when mother went out in the storm, she got quite a bump on her head. For the rest of her days, she kept trying to get that cow in the little basket on the front of her bicycle.

4950. What is that, Blanche, the address of the social security building?

I haven't had such bad advice since my drama teacher told me I'd be perfect for the lead in The King and I. So, stupid here shaves her head and doesn't get the part!

I think Mar-gyu-reet's been inhaling a little too much pine sol.

Rose (entering kitchen): Cooking, Dorothy?

Dorothy (at the stove): No Rose, I'm developing photos from the Magellan Space Probe.

[quote] Ben the ex-con. He was plowing more than just her farm's soil.

And just like that fertile valley of days past, so was Alma's cooter. Now dry, dusty and barren.

Oooooh, it must be pourin’.

Bump. I miss this thread.

How did Dorothy end up broke, did she and Stan own their home?

R414 yeah I never got why the GGs were always portrayed as short on money. Dorothy likely got a good settlement in her divorce, she was also a teacher and in the 80s that was a decent middle-class job plus Miami wasn't massively expensive in 80s. Rose sold a farm to move to Miami so again I didn't how she was so poor.

Their money problems or lack thereof were always dictated by the plot of the week.

Stan was a loser so it sounds like his finances were always shaky. Did they ever make clear whether she had a full-time teaching job earlier in life?

Rose sold her house so you’d think she’d be ok.

Stan was wealthy in earlier episodes, he had a home in Maui with Chrissy.

Rose probably sold the farm for magic beans