Tommy Kirk is DEAD to me!

TMZ obit

Foul play?

He went into carpet cleaning, yes?

OH NO!!!! I thought he was still like 22.

I never even really liked him all that much - this is just me watching my childhood die - I mean really die.

Who's next? Lassie??

R2, the TMZ obit says no foul play is suspected

So young.

You’ve got to read his recollections of Jane Wyman.Angela Channing May have been a role against type, but it was finally the type that perfectly suited her.

[quote]Foul play?

Sounds like a job for the Hardy Boy.

Tommy in tight shorts.

Another.

He and Annette built Disney.

He's my dog, maw...

Enough of the Flickr shit.

Thanks, R10. Tommy had a tight arse.

But his life is a sad tale of the effect of anti-gay attitudes on a life. And it's not only in the past.

He had a very hard go in life. These are quotes from his IMDB page. RIP, sir.

Personal Quotes

Even more than MGM, Disney [in the early 1960s] was the most conservative studio in town... They were growing aware. They weren't stupid. They could add two and two together, and I think they were beginning to suspect my homosexuality. I noticed people in certain quarters were getting less and less friendly. In 1963, Disney didn't renew my option and let me go. But Walt personally let me return to do the final Merlin Jones movie, 'The Monkey's Uncle,' because those were moneymakers for the studio.

In the 1960s, all my social life was underground gay bars. It was my own life. I kept it separate from work, where I went on publicity dates with Annette Funicello or Roberta Shore.

In December 1964, I signed a contract for 'The Sons of Katie Elder' with John Wayne, but a week before shooting I went to a Hollywood party that the vice squad busted because of marijuana. I was handcuffed and photos of me got in the papers with headlines like 'Ex-Disney Child Star Arrested for Pot!' So Wayne and the producers fired me.

[on why he quit acting] I got sick of it and I just stopped.

I consider my teenage years as being desperately unhappy. I knew I was gay since I was a little kid, but I had no outlet for my feelings and I felt that I could not confide in anyone because of the fear of being discovered to who I really was. It was very hard to meet people and, at that time, there was no place to go to socialize. It wasn't until the early Sixties that I began to hear of places where gays congregated... When I was about 17 or 18 years old, I finally admitted to myself that I wasn't going to change. I was born homosexual and I had to accept that. I didn't know what the consequences would be if I came out, but I had the definite feeling that it was going to wreck my Disney career and maybe my whole acting career... and I turned out to be right. Eventually, I became involved with somebody and I was fired. Disney was a family film studio and I was supposed to be their young, leading man. After they found out I was involved with some guy, that was the end of Disney.

After I was fired from Disney, I did some of the worst movies ever made and I got professionally involved with a manager who said it didn't matter what you did as long as you kept working. I wound up completely broke. I spent all my money on drugs to get out of the emotional pain I was in. I had no self-discipline or self-control and I almost died of a drug overdose a couple of times. It's a miracle that I'm still around. Finally, I said to myself, "to hell with the whole thing, to hell with show business. I'm gonna make a new life for myself", and I got off drugs, completely kicked all that stuff.

[when asked about his contract termination with Walt Disney] Yeah, I picked somebody up. It was just one of those crazy things that I didn't know what I was doing; I used to swim in the public pool in downtown Burbank, and during the summer of 1963 I met this teenager and one thing led to another and we had an affair. And then he talked ... he either told a friend or told his parents about me, because his parents went down to the studio one day and Disney was confronted with this. I was on the set when I was suddenly called into Mr. Disney's office and there was this kid, this 15-year-old kid I was involved with, along with his angry-looking parents, Mr. Disney and a few executives. The kid's mother just yelled at me and threatened me. After coming clean about everything, they [the parents] thankfully didn't press sodomy charges, but that was the end of my contract. They [the studio] did not renew me.

I thought Jane Wyman was a hard, cold woman and I got to hate her by the time I was through with Bon Voyage! (1962). Of course, she didn't like me either, so I guess it came natural. I think she had some suspicion that I was gay and all I can say is that, if she didn't like me for that, she doesn't like a lot of people.

[on Fred MacMurray] I really liked him very much but the feeling wasn't mutual. That hurt me a lot and for a long time I hated him. It's hard not to hate somebody who doesn't like you. I was sort of looking for a father figure and I pushed him too hard. He resented it and I guess I was pretty repellent to him, so we didn't get along. We had a couple of blow ups on set ... He was a nice person, but I was just too demanding. I came on too strong because I desperately wanted to be his friend.

This town [Hollywood] is full of right-wingers - the world is full of right-wingers - intolerant, cruel sons-of-bitches.

I had some brief, very passionate encounters and as a teenager I had some affairs, but they were always stolen, back alley kind of things. They were desperate and miserable.

Twinking it up.

Sad that he died alone but it sounds like he was well remembered by a lot of people. Very handsome in his younger days.

[quote]He and Annette built Disney.

Fuck you.

Kevin Corcoran was much cuter.

He looks like David Hogg in OP's photo.

Tommy Kirk is great in both Shaggy Dog and Old Yeller / he deserved more than he got.

-

Grossing Movies of 1959 -... Rank Movie Release; Date Distributor Genre 1959 Gross

1 Ben‑Hur Nov 18, 1959 MGM Adventure $73,000,000

2 The Shaggy Dog Mar 19, 1959 $29,000,000

3 Some Like it Hot Mar 29, 1959 Romantic Comedy $25,000,000

Rip. I loved Tommy Kirk’s movies growing up. Shame to hear that Fred MacMurray was such an asshole to him. I’m glad that things are (marginally) better for gay entertainers these days.

[quote]He and Annette built Disney.

Snow White built Disney about 20 years earlier.

None of the "My Three Sons" kids had problems with Fred.

Maybe Tommy was a prick.

Sad. He was my first crush as a gayling, when I didn’t even know what a crush was. RIP.

I have read from Tommy's own interviews that he himself was a pain in the ass on sets so I'll bet he rubbed Fred the wrong way, but they did several movies together, so I doubt Fred had that much of a problem with him or he would have had him replaced.

Jane Wyman ran a tight ship and had low tolerance for nonsense, so it's no wonder she and Tommy clashed.

What did Fred MacMurray do to him?

Jane Wyman was the Faye Dunaway of her day, and I bet she called Tommy “a little homosexual boy.”

I hope one of the washed up Disney former teen stars like Ethan Wacker does a one man show about the young life of Tommy and how evil Disney destroyed him.

Yeah, Ethan Wacker. That'll sell tickets!

R32 How do you not know hot washed up Disney boys like Ethan Wacker?

r26, ME2!

Jane Wyman was married to Ronald Reagan…that alone should tell you her mindset. I wonder what she said when she found out about Rock Hudson…

Tommy and Annette may not have built Disney but more than any other actors, they kept the studio afloat and made it relevant to 1950s kids. I should know, I was one. We sure as hell didn't go to see Disney films because of Fred MacMurray or Jane fucking Wyman.

[quote] there was this kid, this 15-year-old kid I was involved with

Kirk would then have been 21 and the teen was younger than Prince Andrew's prostitute who got Andy labeled worldwide as a pedophile.. San Quentin would have been justice for Old Yeller.

This news truly saddens me. Yes, he ruined his own career through a series of poor choices, but he was resilient enough to move on, not become bitter, and take an honest look at himself.

I’m sorry I never met him.

R37 - I don't think Tommy actually played Old Yeller.

[quote]“He was one of the most talented people I ever worked with. Frighteningly talented,” his Hardy Boys onscreen brother, Tim Considine, said in a statement. “A friend of mine who was a casting director told me that when Tommy Kirk came in to audition, he had never seen a kid actor as good as he was, especially because he could instantly cry on cue. He was a great talent, and it was a privilege to work with him and call him a friend.”

His friend Tim Considine was my first crush, in Spin and Marty. the Hardy Boys, and The Swamp Fox.

My Disney crush was the ethereal James McArthur, even at the age of six on Sunday night Disney show I would get excited down there whenever he was shirtless.

[quote]He went into carpet cleaning, yes?

Cleaning -- yes.

Munching? No.

Fuck that kid.

I hope it was a shotgun right between the eyes.

Was he cut or uncut?

R35, Jane Wyman and Rock Hudson were good friends. If you watch the A&E Biography on Rock, she makes that evident with her comments.

.,.,

[quote]Jane Wyman was married to Ronald Reagan…that alone should tell you her mindset. I wonder what she said when she found out about Rock Hudson…

Jane Wyman and Rock Hudson were paired romantically in two lavish 1950s Douglas Sirk tearjerkers: "Magnificent Obsession" and "All That Heaven Allows."

R36, Jane Wyman gave an excellent performance in "Pollyanna" and she never looked prettier in a film.

Man, they're ALL dying. Charlie Watts, Tommy Kirk, Ned Beaty, Ed Asner, Jackie Mason, Prince Phillip, etc. etc. I feel like Ishmael in Moby Dick: And I alone survive to tell the tale.

^^^MARY!

R49, You and me, babe.

He probably had a constant boner working with a more often than not shirtless James MacArthur on SFR. MacArthur was said to have one of the (if not THE) biggest penises ever seen in Hollywood. They said his was one Milton Berle's schlong would have aspired to be.

R52, Why do you think I was always smiling?

Loved him in The Shaggy Dog.

RIP Tommy.

I feel bad that his career was ruined, but he should have stayed away from kids after he turned 18. I'm sure he would have been dumped by Disney regardless, but he'd be remembered as a martyr now rather than a borderline perv.

Wow, r55, you have no concept of what it meant to be 18, and gay in the 60s.

In 1963, there wasn't a lot of social pressure to "stay away from kids once you turned 18." At least not when the kids were post-pubescent teens. It wasn't odd to see a 21-year-old man with a 15-year-old girl. It's not accurate to say Tommy was a borderline perv just because he was gay when he was 21 and fooled around with a 15-year-old.

[quote] It's not accurate to say Tommy was a borderline perv just because he was gay when he was 21 and fooled around with a 15-year-old.

Yes it is, you perv.

R58. this was 60 years ago. Times were different then.

"When asked in later years, Kirk had fond memories of Disney but was not so politely inclined to his Shaggy Dog co-star Fred MacMurray. It was MacMurray who gave Kirk "the biggest dressing down of my life" on the set of Disney's Bon Voyage (1962). Kirk would confess that he fully deserved the scolding; at the time of the shooting, Kirk was addicted to amphetamines, and his resultant behavior was both erratic and obstructive."

I heard Tommy say in an interview what this scolding was specifically about, one time, but I've forgotten it. I think Tommy was being presumptuous and teasing Fred about something, like being a diva type, or unprofessional, something Tommy was just joking about, but the joke showed poor judgment and Fred got mad.

Well the kid's parents nearly prosecuted Tommy (who was 21, not 18 at the time), so the times back then obviously weren't more forgiving of that behavior. Which is why Tommy was dumb to keep fooling around with kids once he was legally an adult.

Actually I believe Jane Wyman left Ronnie because Ronnie was getting so right wing and joining the Republicans. Jane was always a Democrat. That and also because Ronnie’s career was going nowhere and Jane had just won an Oscar. I never got the sense that Jane was homophobic having done two films with Rock Hudson. I don’t know how she could’ve not known about his life and they reportedly were close friends.

[quote] He probably had a constant boner working with a more often than not shirtless James MacArthur on SFR. MacArthur was said to have one of the (if not THE) biggest penises ever seen in Hollywood. They said his was one Milton Berle's schlong would have aspired to be.

Wow! Well I guess I’ll finally be unwrapping my blu ray of SFR and giving it a spin with adult, gay eyes. I haven’t seen it since I was a kid in the 80s. It was always one of my favorite live action Disney flicks.

One great thing about movies from 50-80 years ago, there is a LOT of VPL because guys wore boxers and pants made of thin fabric. If you’re a keen observer like I am, it’s a feast for the eyes.

Also— RIP Tommy Kirk.

[quote]It wasn't odd to see a 21-year-old man with a 15-year-old girl.

Maybe not for Elvis, or Jerry Lee Lewis... But for average people, of course it was odd. A guy the age of a college senior with a young high school girl? That was not seen as normal. On the other hand, it was probably something you could get away with a little more than you could in today's culture.

By the way I always found Tommy much cuter than James MacArthur, who I was not attracted to.

R61, you are aware that they almost certainly threatened to prosecute because it was sodomy, not because it was statutory rape, right?

In California they didn't make the age of consent 18 until 1970, but I can't find what it was prior to that. Maybe 15 wasn't even statutory back then.

R63 Why did you buy it if you never watched it? And doesn’t he shrink wrap warp the disc if you leave it on for years?

R54 That picture is misidentified as Tommy; it's Tim Considine. He was also in the movie.

R64, in 1960, 16% of teenage girls 15-19 were married. Only 4% of boys that age were married. That means the girls were marrying boys over the age of 19.

R68 What was the percentage of 15 years olds who were married, though - not 15-19 year olds?

So either the act of a 21 year old sleeping with a 15 year old is intrinsically wrong or it isn't, it doesn't have too much to do with the times.

It didn't break it down by year, r69. It's "Teenagers: Marriages, Divorces, Parenthood, and Mortality" by the CDC, it's a PDF and I can't link to it.

I mean, the point here is to make sure everyone thinks Tommy Kirk was actually a pervert and pedophile, so it doesn't matter what anyone says or links to. The goal is to make sure the dead gay guy is made out to be evil, and now there will be dozens upon dozens of incensed, indignant, what-about-the-children ladies posting here screaming about a gay being a pedo.

That's how these threads always go these days. I'd bet cash money that if this thread had been posted a week ago when unpaid users couldn't post, it would have been a slow-moving but normal thread that didn't descend into making sure everyone knew the faggot was a pedo.

Uh, R70 you can think that Kirk's behavior was dubious and not be an 'alt right' troll, it's not an either or proposition. Just because he was gay doesn't mean we have to canonize him.

[quote]So either the act of a 21 year old sleeping with a 15 year old is intrinsically wrong or it isn't, it doesn't have too much to do with the times.

It has everything to do with the times. A 15 year old is post-pubescent, not like a 5 year old. Many cultures have considered 15 year olds to be of age.

By the way if sex is supposed to be off limits to a 15 year old then it should be considered off limits, period, including with other 15 year olds. Otherwise the person is not really a "child" if it's acceptable for them to have sex with people their own age.

The quote, if it's accurate, because it only shows up on the IMDb and doesn't even have a source, has Tommy explicitly saying "they [the parents] thankfully didn't press sodomy charges" so age had nothing to do with it at the time.

If Tommy Kirk really did tell this story as its quoted, obviously age wasn't an issue because he mentioned the kid's age. He wouldn't have done that if it would have made him look like a "pervert" or a "pedo."

But we don't even know if he said it. The people obsessing over how Tommy Kirk must have been a pervert because of this need to get off it.

Oh, R73, so all issues related to laws around adolescent sexuality are biological, nothing to with emotional and psychological development and power dynamics? Huh...

It was very very stupid of him to be in his 20s and seeing a 15 year old boy. That's when people at Disney started being cold to him. Also because of him taking drugs he starting being erratic and not being professional. He owned all of this later on in his life.

He could have been making Disney films through much of the 60s and then moved on to TV. He was very cute and did have a lot of talent. What a waste.

Bulifant in her autobio makes MacArthur out to be some sort of alcoholic monster who raped her during the marriage. She says nothing about his schlong. I got to meet him at a Lillian Gish film at Lincoln Center. She was his godmother. He was a pleasant old man.

Wiki tells us his brother (also a kid actor) became a dentist.

Tommy's peak stardom happened when he should have been in college, getting a professional credential.

By the time he crashed and burned, it was too late. He only quit showbiz in his mid-30s, long past his sell-by date.

Jane Wyman must have had something going on, if she was able to lure Fred Karger away from Marilyn Monroe, who was deeply in love with him.

"Following her divorce from Reagan, Wyman married German-American Hollywood music director and composer Frederick M. "Fred" Karger on November 1, 1952, at El Montecito Presbyterian Church, Santa Barbara. They separated on November 7, 1954, and were granted an interlocutory divorce decree on December 7, 1954; the divorce was finalized on December 30, 1955. They remarried on March 11, 1961, and Karger divorced her again on March 9, 1965. According to The New York Times' report of the divorce, the bandleader charged that the actress "had walked out on him.""

Aww, that’s a shame.

But I guess he couldn’t pilot the Enterprise forever.

I remember Wyman in an interviewing saying that her childhood was "worse than you could imagine."

She may have had a grudge against successful but undiscilplined child/teen stars.

[quote]None of the "My Three Sons" kids had problems with Fred.

Probably because he was never on the set! He'd have his lines shot separately, then they'd integrate them with the other actors. He only agreed to be with the other actors for the rare shots that had to include them with him.

For everyone criticizing Kirk's behavior, remember in the 60s we were all sexual and psychological deviates. It was during Vietnam. Kirk was fired for violating the morals clause of his Disney contract. And Disney knew that Kirk would keep that quiet.

A bit off topic, but

[quote]Kirk tagged along with his older brother Joe to an audition for Eugene O’Neill’s Ah, Wilderness at the Pasadena Playhouse and wound up with a part (while Joe didn’t get one)

You often find this type of anecdote as part of some actor's official story. They can't all be true, right?

Just because the My 3 Sons actors never said anything about Fred MacMurray's behavior, doesn't mean they liked working with him.

[quote]Wiki tells us his brother (also a kid actor) became a dentist.T ommy's peak stardom happened when he should have been in college, getting a professional credential. By the time he crashed and burned, it was too late. He only quit showbiz in his mid-3 0s, long past his sell-by date.

He should have been in college? Is that the answer to everything on DL? The kid was a movie star. Very successful. I doubt he would have wanted to be a dentist. Some people are not temperamentally suited to be doctors, dentists, lawyers or in business. Creative people exist. He didn't have good luck and maybe he made some of his own problems, but he was a good actor and a talented person who gladly shared that with us.

Tommy was a young-looking 21, if that mitigates anything…

Kirk confided to close friends in the 1970's that he and James MacArthur had a one night stand while filming "Swiss Family Robinson" and that, in actuality, the 15 year old he was fooling around with in 1964 was Disney star, Kevin Corcoran. They'd worked together for years and had a friendship that went "over the line" in his own words.

Tommy, being older, took the heat. Corcoran returned to Disney some years later in an off-screen capacity and was very successful. Corcoran married in the early 70's but remained friendly with Kirk until his demise in 2015 at the age of 66.

R87 Except Tommy was 23 in 1964, when Kevin was 15. He said he was having an affair with a 15 year old when he was 21.

I heard the rumors about Kirk and Corcoran also from my mom who worked on the Disney lot in the Publicity Department.

In 1964, Kirk would have been 22 through most of the year (December 10 was his birthday). I wouldn't be surprised that he might have changed some numbers when relating the story years later.

He was at our house for dinner a couple of times. Even at 9 or 10 (I was born in 1954), I got a sexual vibe from him. There was something very soothing about the way he spoke and I know that I wanted him to be my friend. We didn't, however, hook-up until the late 70's, when I was 23.

Kevin Corcoran

Looks to me like this would have been pervy

He was fired by Uncle Walt for blowing a stage hand behind space mountain.

"Johnny Shiloh" was filmed in 1962 when Corcoran was 13. It aired in January of 1963. He and Kirk didn't become involved until 1964, when Corcoran was 15.

The date in the first quote was 1963, and while I realize now that may not even be a real quote, Kirk was born in December 1941 which would have made him 21 for most of 1963. That's why I said he was 21 in earlier post, just FYI.

R81, If you watch any episode of "My Three Sons", you would see there were many scenes of Fred and the family together.

Reaction and closeup shots of Fred were shot in advance and spliced into episodes, but to say he was never on the set is ludicrous.

The same technique was used with Brian Keith on "Family Affair". Both shows were Don Fedderson productions and he came up with the idea of filming Fred and later Brian singularly and editing them into the episodes.

Are there details about where he’s to be buried?

Op is lined out? Why?

I loved Tommy as one of the Hardy Boys with Tim Considine. I guess I liked Swiss Family Robinson and The Shaggy Dog the best of his movies. Old Yeller was so SAD!

I just watched one of his later movies on TCM last week, Catalina Caper..... Not a good movie, but he looks good in his swimming trunks. I think it's still available OnDemand on TCM.

His commentary on the SFR DVD is also fun.....he's interviewed there, too.

And he and Annette had the BEST duet ever in the Beach Party film series in Pajama Party.

I'm reminded of the lovely Roberta Shore, pictured way up thread, who was sometimes employed as a foil to Annette in those Mousketeer series they would do. She had those ultra short Mamie Eisenhower bangs but on her combined with her sassy pony tail, they looked fab! I must do a search a find out WHET....

R98, Wasn't she on "The Virginian"?

That's right, r99. She was!

Roberta had nice things to say about Annette on The Shaggy Dog DVD. She was interviewed there. And yes she was the foil for Annette in the MMC serial "Annette".....

Ugh. Mormon.

[quote]I loved Tommy as one of the Hardy Boys with Tim Considine. I guess I liked Swiss Family Robinson and The Shaggy Dog the best of his movies. Old Yeller was so SAD!

Old Yeller was the first movie I ever saw. I didn't want to go to another movie again until my mother promised me no dogs would get killed.

Roberta Shore with fellow cast members of "The Virginian."

She's part Asian?

Kirk though probably the biggest money making star for Disney in the cast of SFR isn't even on the cover of the DVD or bluray. It is clearly intentional. Pretty shitty.

[quote]Op is lined out? Why?

It's the fraus F&Fing threads they don't like.

OMG, that cast of The Virginian was filled was hot hunks!

I, too, felt utterly betrayed by Walt Disney when I saw Old Yeller and the dog died. And I was very wary of his films after that and never saw the complete Bambi or Dumbo, having been warned of the treacherously sad parts.

Interesting that a poster above says Tommy told some folks that the teenager he was having sex with was Kevin Corcoran.

In Hayley Mills' new book, she says that it was Kevin who told her the reason that everyone in the class at the studio laughed when she called the erasers on her pencils "rubbers." He told her what rubbers were and how they worked.....

He was obviously a regular Lolita and probably had a lot of fun on the lot..... And the idea of a Tommy Kirk - James MacArthur hook up makes me feel funny down there.

On that "Making of Swiss Family Robinson" short, its obvious that James MacArthur and Tommy developed a real friendship while on location. MacArthur notes that 40 years later, they were still exchanging Christmas Cards. Their scenes together had a sexual tension.

Boys will be boys!!

I used to sub in South Central LA. I used to pray that the teacher would leave me a video to show. That is until the video was Old Yeller. I watched Tommy Kirk kill his sick dog six times. I was a wreck

I wonder why Tommy would have said he met the 15 year old at the pool, which is a totally unnecessary detail. I also don't see why Tommy Kirk would be banished from the studio and reviled for being a queer, but Kevin Corcoran would not. The story doesn't make sense.

R105 She's as part-Asian as Juliet Prowse.

He fucked Moochie?!!!

I'm sceptical about most of these anecdotes from half a century ago.

1. I don't think adolescents are good judges of character.

2. I wouldn't be surprised if Kirk is blaming others for his career fading away. Everyone's career fades away in time.

[quote] Op is lined out? Why?

Because Datalouneg has become insane.

Wasn't there a whole family of Corcoran kid actors at the time?

[quote]I, too, felt utterly betrayed by Walt Disney when I saw Old Yeller and the dog died. And I was very wary of his films after that and never saw the complete Bambi or Dumbo, having been warned of the treacherously sad parts.

It's true that "Old Yeller" and "Bambi" have depressing scenes from which the movies never recover, because they're what everyone remembers most years after seeing them. But if you want to check it out after all these years, although "Dumbo does have heartbreaking moments [SPOILER ALERT], Dumbo and his mother are happily and triumphantly reunited at the end.

[quote]Wasn't there a whole family of Corcoran kid actors at the time?

Kevin "Moochie" Corcoran was one of eight children, most of whom did some occasional acting. After Kevin, the most well known of the siblings was Noreen Corcoran, who played John Forsythe's niece on the TV series "Bachelor Father."

James Drury (The Virginian), Jane Wyman, and Kevin Corcoran were all in Disney's "Pollyanna."

Does Pollyanna still hold up? I remember loving it so much when I saw it its original run as a kid. I can't imagine why Disney hasn't made a stage musical from it....I would think the material would be perfect and it's not so overly well-known (which I think is a good thing).

I remember Noreen Corcoran vividly from my youth! Niece Kelly on Bachelor Father. We literally watched her grow up on that series.

[Quote] at the pool, which is a totally unnecessary detail.

Not if he wanted to present the minor as a stranger.

[quote] It's true that "Old Yeller" and "Bambi" have depressing scenes from which the movies never recover, because they're what everyone remembers most years after seeing them.

Death is part of life. They're Disney films, not Long Day's Journey Into Night. Btw, before Old Yeller there was The Yearling. The thing about the kid having to shoot his pet is basically a direct steal from The Yearling.

Well Snow White has the huntsman who wants to cut out her heart which forces her into a very frightening surreal run through the woods and then there is the Queen's transformation into a witch. This was known to frighten children.

And Pinocchio has the boy turning into a jackass which is still scary as hell.

Disney knew people as well as children liked the shit scared out of them. Even an ending where a beloved pet is shot allowing you to cry is cathartic.

R122, Recently rewatched it and it holds up just fine.

Yes, Pollyanna is still a wonderful movie today. And R122's idea of a musical is a good idea. However, I can't imagine anyone but Haley Mills being able to pull off that role. If they tried to remake it, it would probably be a disaster.

What's so difficult about the role?

I agree with R126. Pollyanna is still a lot of fun. Hell, I even like Summer Magic.

As for Disney dropping Kirk and keeping Corcoran, that might have been part of the deal for keeping the parents quiet..... Who knows. And certainly a younger actor like Kevin was more valuable to Disney than Kirk who was aging out of the roles that Disney would have had for him.

Enter.....Kurt Russell.....

Who was snatched up by cougar Goldie.

Genya Ravan?

You wanted a "Pollyanna" musical?

I watched Pollyanna recently, I had never seen it before. I thought it was too long. I did a little research and found out that Walt liked everything in it so much, he didn't want to cut the film tighter. It seemed a little overlong, to me, though.

The silver lining is that it seems like Tommy found peace of mind later in life. There's been other threads on him and I recall everyone saying how nice and appreciative he was at the conventions.

Had no clue about the 15 year-old being the Corcoran kid. This sounds terrible to say, but it's DL, so I'll say it: Corcoran looks like he would've been a piggy little bottom who enjoyed bending over for Tommy. Only they know if it went that far.

I'd like to fantasize about him with MacArthur they were so hot together in SFR. I doubt they had a one night stand. James was resolutely heterosexual.

Scratch an actor...

R134 So because of one post we're now accepting this as fact?

Kevin was 8 years younger than Tommy. So hopefully it wasn't him haha

It was an interesting surprise that disney posted tribute tweet about his death given they sacked him because he was gay If I have remembered the history I read correctly?

He blew a grip behind Space Mountain. That was why he was fired.

Space Mountain didn't exist when Kirk was fired by Disney.

Rory I think he blew a guy behind Walt's creation.

Walt created great art. He did not create gayness.

R141 you seem to know a lot about blowing guys at disneyland.

Jane Wyman could have been his mother.

Instead, he rejected love.

He blew the third man on the mountain behind the Matterhorn.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Rory, "space mountain" is my nickname for your ass.

Thank God John Mills got SFR. He, MacArthur and Kirk make such a hot trio. When I went to London many years later I went to see Separate Tables just because he was in it. I got to eventually meet MacArthur and McGuire gave one of the greatest performances I've seen on stage in Night of the Iguana.

I always wanted to meet Kirk but sadly now it will never happen.

"At LAX airport, we were met by an enormous black limousine. As we slumped into the leather seats, I heard Mummy whisper: ‘This is the beginning of Hell.’"

Some of the snippets I've seen from Hayley's book seem overdramatized to me. I don't think her mother said that quote above. But I could be wrong.

'John Mills sold his daughter Hayley Mills to Disney for Pollyanna. His price was the starring role in Swiss family Robinson.'

He was an actor what would you expect?

R150 if you read that book, that quote wouldn't surprise you. Her mother was a piece of work who was very jealous of the success of her daughters and very dismissive of any of their accomplishments.

She thought her work as a "writer" was more important and relevant than anything they were doing.

And she was a drunk.

R139 - Tommy was named a Disney Legend.....so somebody over there likes him.

"I always wanted to meet Kirk but sadly now it will never happen."

Would you settle for an open casket wake?

for those in the business in the know...... was Kirk completely frozen out of any earnings from his Disney years as he aged? What might have he been receiving from his heyday? Thanks in advance.

Well R155 - Annette was probably the highest paid contract player at Disney, and her top earnings were $1500 a week at the end of her renegotiated second contract that ended in 1964 - her contract started her at $500 per week.

She was guaranteed 40 weeks of work a year - so that's only about $60,000 for EVERYTHING.

Tommy probably didn't get anywhere near that.

Union contracts stopped all residuals on film work completed before January 1, 1960, so his payment for DVDs or other media would have been set in his contract....

Here's an interesting recap of his Disney career.

In the early 60s Maureen O'Hara's price per picture was I believe 250k. Disney tried to get her for less. She said no. He got his revenge when he gave Hayley Mills top billing in The Parent Trap. Contractually it was O'Hara's but her lawyer told her she could fight it and probably win but it wasn't worth the bad feeling in the industry Disney would create for her.

So much for Paul Peterson's "estranged" comment........one of Tommy's nieces responded online to a recap of his career here.

On behalf of the Kirk family we are saddened by the loss of our Uncle Tom. I want to set the record straight. My Uncle Tom was not estranged from his family. He was very close to his nieces and nephews and he was certainly close to his last surviving brother my Uncle Andy. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for the wonderful tribute you made about my Uncle Tom. Thank you so much for loving my Uncle and loving his movies. We the Kirk family are just devestated. But, what a beautiful legacy he has left for the world. Heather Kirk

while we're on the topic of residuals ....... does anybody have an educated guess as to how much income the Cosby Show kids are missing annually after his meltdown? any idea?

FYI, not finished with Hayley Mills' memoir yet, but she said that her six picture contract with Disney was with her fee for the first film (Pollyanna) at $10,000 and then an increase of $10,000 for each of the following pictures. I'm only on the part where she's started filming The Parent Trap (before she became a huge star), so her agents might have renegotiated.

Did Tommy have any friendships he maintained from his time in Hollywood?Any actors who were pals?

[quote] FYI, not finished with Hayley Mills' memoir yet, …I'm only on the part where she's started filming The Parent Trap.

R161 I hope you tell us more.

I love hearing about the secret financial deals because it so often reveals that performers are chosen because of a pushy agent rather than for their own talent.

'Would you settle for an open casket wake?'

He was found in his apartment and could have been dead for a while. An open casket might not have been possible.

[quote]I hope you tell us more. I love hearing about the secret financial deals because it so often reveals that performers are chosen because of a pushy agent rather than for their own talent.

R163 Or you could read the book, yourself. Lazy bastard.

And cheapskate!

R150 here again. If Hayley's mum was that much of a bitch, I'd rather not read the book. I'm sure it's therapeutic for her to share her feelings and recollections, though. Just as her sister Juliet could be sharing her husband Maxwell Caulfield's much younger cock with us.

R164, I can do magic.

Well then clearly you can bring him back from the dead at the age of 20.

From what I've read so far, Hayley is writing very much in the voice of a grown-up version of one of her iconic adolescent characters, that is she charmingly positive, honest (in an English sort of way) and charming. This very well may be how Hayley actually is in real life, but I can't help but feel that this is how Susah from The Parent Trap would have sounded as an older woman.

R167, I doubt Juliet is that interested in her gay husband's cock

Juliet and Maxwell work together a lot.

And...?

She's not hard on her parents - she just tells the truth. There were a lot of things she didn't know.

I just wish John had appeared bare-assed like his daughters.

R175 Are you obsessing over John Mills?

John Mills would use the term 'bare-arsed'.

No, he'd say "in the nuddy."

Starkers.

While filming "The Horsemasters" with Annette in the fall of 1960, Tommy had a fling with gay British actor, John Fraser. Fraser played Lord Alfred Douglas in "The Trials of Oscar Wilde".

Fraser, who wrote a frank autobiography entitled, "Close Up" shared with friends that Tommy, who was 18 when filming took place, was an "insatiable bottom" but that he taught Tommy the joys of also being a top. Tommy also shared with Fraser that he and James MacArthur had indeed enjoyed encounters while making "Swiss Family Robinson" the previous year.

[quote]Fraser, who wrote a frank autobiography entitled, "Close Up" shared with friends that Tommy, who was 18 when filming took place, was an "insatiable bottom" but that he taught Tommy the joys of also being a top. Tommy also shared with Fraser that he and James MacArthur had indeed enjoyed encounters while making "Swiss Family Robinson" the previous year.

Who were friends he shared this with? Was one of them Darwin Porter?

Who's Darwin Porter??? Seriously!!

R181 A writer who writes "tell all" biographies of stars after they're dead, claiming things about their sex lives that can't be proven.

(r182) Thank you. I was not aware of his reputation or work.

Um, where exactly is Swiss Family Robinson streaming at the moment? Asking for a friend…

Prime Video and Disney Plus has it available.

I watched it recently via Netflix

Picturing James MacArthur topping Tommy has me a bit light headed, and hard too.

(r187) Me too!!!

R179 I had to look up John Fraser. Handsome man with an interesting life as an actor not well known celebrity. I need yo find his autobiography for sale somewhere on line; it seems out of print. Fraser’s comment on Tommy’s bottoming circa 1960 had me wondering about anal hygiene of that era. Did guys anal douche? Or did fucking always involve a certain level of stink and risk of brown stain dick.

I always thought that Janet Munro, who was in "Swiss Family Robinson," was lovely. In Disney's "Darby O'Gill and the Little People" she played Sean Connery's love interest. She and James MacArthur also co-starred in Disney's "Third Man on the Mountain." Sadly, she died at age 38 of heart disease.

I always confused Janet Munro with Janet Margolin who famously co-starred in Woody Allen's first hit Take the Money and Run and then married Soap's Ted Wass.

I heard he was fired because he blew one of the special effects stage hands on the set of The Absent Minded Professor.

I heard he blew Frank Langella.

Will Frank ever come out?

Too bad John Fraser didn't put that story into his book.

A lot of these anecdotes sold like trash-talk from failed movie stars. I think John Fraser had some kind of integrity.

Frank Langella had an amazingly big cock. He was uncut, but he let the boys taste it when he needed them for the Movies.

R197, And Frank actually placed it inside Whoopi?

Did he blow Frank Langella?

r198 and so did Danson.

I heard that he sucked of 10 guys behind the studio where Minne Mouse got made.

That's what I heard, anyway.

It's a little known fact. Ted Danson got his start on Micky Mouse club.

But his mother protected him. She was his best friend.

Also, he sucked off a grip on Micky Mouse club.

That is where is money came from.

So this seems perfectly salacious and up Kenneth Anger’s alley to be in Hollywood Babylon, was it just really secret at for decades or did he actually have a heart because of Tommy’s youth when it happened?

What has Darwin Porter got to do with John Fraser?

Now that Tommy Kirk is dead - the stories can come out without fear of a lawsuit for defamation......especially the made up stories.

"The Horsemasters" which co-starred Anne, Tommy Kirk and John Fraser. It was during this production's filming that Kirk and Fraser became an item.

Annette was not pleased with Kirk and Fraser's "shenanigans" (her word)

A lovely film, shown in the US on television but in theaters internationally.

I'm old enough to have seen John Fraser in some films and I see now that he was sexy enough to have caught my little gayling's eye but he doesn't ring a bell for me. Looking at his credits, I see he played "Roger" in a favorite movie of mine, ISADORA. Who the hell is Roger in ISADORA?

So, was the poor boy basically fucked out of an education except for a few hours of a tutor each day on set and no real graduation to speak of? And did they have laws for how long kids could work each day back then, or did Ole Walt stand there with a whip snapping faster, faster, more movies!

[quote]So this seems perfectly salacious and up Kenneth Anger’s alley to be in Hollywood Babylon, was it just really secret at for decades or did he actually have a heart because of Tommy’s youth when it happened?

Kenneth Anger seemed more comfortable talking about scandals of the 1920s and '30s, probably because that made it easier to make shit up.

(r210) Roger is Isadora's male secretary. She is living with him and dictating her memoir.

What has Kenneth Anger got to do with John Fraser?

Fraser plays David and is seen in the pre-credit sequence for the first time. Tommy plays Danny. Stuck in England filming for over a month, I can well understand why Kirk would seek out a "local" to show him the ropes.

[quote]So, was the poor boy basically fucked out of an education except for a few hours of a tutor each day on set and no real graduation to speak of? And did they have laws for how long kids could work each day back then, or did Ole Walt stand there with a whip snapping faster, faster, more movies!

At least he wasn't fucked on the set and told everybody does it, like Corey Haim.

[quote] John Mills would use the term 'bare-arsed'.

A current-day John Mills would say 'Full Monty' but I still can't fathom why any Datalounger could be attracted to this midget (who had a nice voice but little else). Noel Coward may have had some erotic pleasure with him in Singapore in the 20s but AFAIK he has the sex appeal of a cold lamp chop.

I watched The Horsemasters on YouTube last night. Tommy is a lot of fun.

Here is a link to the interview that he gave saying he was gay. Scroll down to Page 60.

Also he wasn't exactly fired - his contract option wasn't picked up. If he signed his contract in 1956, there was only one year left on it anyway in 1962.

R217 I find John Mills very attractive. He had a certain confidence and dignity in real life, and a charm - he played a variety of roles and was an enormously talented and subtle actor. I loved his scenes in In Which We Serve and This Happy Breed with Kay Walsh. I can't think of anything I ever saw him in where he wasn't good.

There's a poster here who hates John Mills. Best not engage on that point.

I too watched "The Horsemasters" last night. I'd never seen it before but it is much better than I had expected. I agree with (r218) that Tommy is a lot of fun and oozes youthful charm. It's not a stretch to imagine Fraser falling for the 18 year old Kirk during the shooting.

The entire film is nicely crafted and Annette and Janet Munro, among others, do very well. In the USA, Disney should have released it in theaters instead of showing it on their Sunday night weekly show. It's theater worthy.

Also interesting that the address he gave at the time of the arrest is now an empty lot that sold in July for $210,000........1645 Mountcrest Avenue in LA.

[quote]There's a poster here who hates John Mills.

Hayley?

R223, after reading Hayley's memoirs, I can assure you she hates no one.

[quote] Old Yeller was the first movie I ever saw. I didn't want to go to another movie again until my mother promised me no dogs would get killed.

…so then she took you to see Bambi….

[quote] Tommy Kirk would be banished from the studio and reviled for being a queer,

He wasn’t “a queer,” he was gay.

Had you used that term back then to their faces you would’ve been swallowing your teeth.

R226, lol. Tons of people described themselves as queer. And they referred to straights as "normal"

He was reviled for being a man in a relationship with a 15 year old. It was very very stupid.

Gloria Grahame had an affair with her 13 year old stepson (and they eventually got married). Some of these kids are quite precocious and look a lot older. I used to know a 13 year old kid who was 6 feet tall and looked about 17. When I was in my 30s. Wanted to go skateboarding with me all the time. He didn't seem like a child. I wasn't attracted to him or interested, but I can see a 21 year old being interested in someone like that. Sometimes it's more biological than chronological.

But you still stay as far away from them as possible. At 15 I would have loved to have had a relationship with a 21 year old Tommy Kirk but I wouldn't have told a soul. If it got out it would have been catastrophic.

My high school band teacher came onto me when I was 17 and he was about 35-40. It is one of the regrets of my life I didn't follow up on it.

[quote] Tons of people described themselves as queer.

Bullshit.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, would describe themselves as queer back then. Others may have called them that, but they would never refer to themselves like that. It was considered a slur and only certain people today are using the lame excuse that we’re “taking back the word.”

R232, wrong. Gays have called themselves "queers" for eons. You are just looking for things to be offended by

Everyone used the term queer when I started posting here in 2000. Only recently did right-wing gays here start pretending to be offended by it.

I think Tommy said in the interview linked above that when filming a scene in BON VOYAGE, there was a reverse shot where Fred was featured with the camera looking over Tommy's shoulder.

They had been joking all day so Tommy said with a Groucho Marx accent: "You get the closeup and all I get is the back of my head!"

And Fred was offended by it and really started telling him about being the STAR of the picture and having a long career, etc.....the more he talked the madder he got - so after that things were strained between them. He also said that during The Shaggy Dog, he really wanted Fred to be a father substitute for him - but Fred would not have it.....work only.

I heard him tell this story, once - so did Tommy ever go to Fred later and apologize? Fred was, after all a big name. MaybeFred was being sensitive but if Tommy really wanted to get along with him he probably needed to suck up and apologize.

From many people of the time, Fred was a Class A CUNT.

R236, Many were put off by how cheap he was. Never picked up a check on his life, would invite you to lunch and "forget" to bring his wallet.

Maybe Tommy wasn't so perfect himself.

Yeah I read too that he was famous for being cheap like Cary grant and Rudy Vallee. And these men made a lot of money. But maybe it's living years dirt poor in a time we can't even imagine with no social safety nets whatsoever. A time when a missing nickel or dime was genuinely scary.

Or once they started making real money, others would take advantage so they tightened the purse strings until it was shut.

I don't think Fred made such an apology possible.

r9

so you don't have to sign in.

Tommy played the gay card for all it was worth. Once he became an adult, he was using drug, sleeping around publicly and Diseny wouldn't take them from a straight actor. He was told to quit it by Walt and he refused. So Walt got rid of him and yet still got him work in other areas.

But Tommy was pissed because he couldn't be a jerk, do what he wanted and be a star. He was never star material. He was always second banana.

He kept touching me. Yech.

I wouldn't mind signing in to that ass R9.

Did he die of AIDS like the other Tommy? Or was it another Covid cover-up?

He was co-starring material with Annette in things like Escapade in Florence(released in theaters in Europe) and Merlin Jones.. That is not second banana. And had he did not fucked up his career and life he might have had a few more years with Disney in Dean Jones type roles and then moved onto TV. He was so popular Disney took him back for another film even after his affair with the 15 year old kid. That's astonishing for a guy like Disney. Kirk clearly made money for the studio. He certainly was the biggest moneymaker in the cast of SFR and now doesn't even rate a cover photo despite being made a Disney legend. But he only has himself to blame which I believe he owned.

Yea - he owned his mistakes R247......when he got his money at age 21 or whatever, he spent it on drugs and partying and didn't give his career a second thought. I guess he assumed it would always be there.

Disney followed the box office, but eventually the trouble was more than it was worth. And there's always someone coming up behind you.......right, Kevin?

That was as well about the time when Disney discovered Kurt Russell who in the early 70s played the Tommy Kirk roles. I remember seeing Superdad at Radio City. Also saw there the very fit handsome underdressed Jan Michael Vincent in The World's Greatest Athlete. I wonder how these movies hold up. I was a kid so I liked them a lot.

Most pieces on Tommy Kirk are just the same limited set of facts or maybe-facts sliced and diced in different ways. Even in more detailed pieces, there are odd gaps in the info. Maybe some here at DL can help with:

—One of his boyfriends he evidently felt unusually deeply about split up with him due to Kirk’s drug use at the time—and then died a couple of weeks later in a boating accident. What was the boyfriend’s name?

—He got off drugs and ran a carpet/upholstery cleaning business in the San Fernando Valley for over twenty years (he and others have stated) . . . but I can find absolutely nothing on the business: Not its address, not any anecdotes from workers or customers, no business cards or invoices which some might have saved as a sort of souvenir of him, no ads in the L.A. Times. Anyone have anything on this company?

—Almost nothing of any depth is said by anyone about his personality young or old, about how he was when he was just being himself with acquaintances in everyday situations. Was he actualperfect, highly questionable, confident, reserved, playful, quiet, considerate, self-absorbed, etc. etc., or maybe any and all of these and more depending on the moment and the person he was with?

Actually perfect?

r251 -- Fun typo from another current thread; but yeah it might as well mean "actually perfect."

It sucks - I was planning to be Tommy Kirk's boy toy, but now he's gone.

His IMDB bio says it was called Tommy Kirk's Carpet and Upholstery"......

[quote]He certainly was the biggest moneymaker in the cast of SFR

?

On the Swiss Family Robinson poster, he didn't get star billing. Mills, McGuire, MacArthur, and Munro were billed as the stars. He got featured billing, under Sessue Hayakawa.

r162 : [quote] Did Tommy have any friendships he maintained from his time in Hollywood?Any actors who were pals?

Beverly Washburn, from [italic]Old Yeller[/italic], was a close and caring friend all the way to the end of his life. It was because of her that he moved to his final home in Las Vegas (where she lives).

[quote]Did Tommy have any friendships he maintained from his time in Hollywood?

No, I told you he kept touching me

Why did Considine leave My Three Sons? He wanted a raise and Fred said, "I'm the one who gets the raises!"

r257 Thanks

Considering Tommy's age when things were falling apart for him, his need for $$$, and the era, I wouldn't have been surprised if he had gotten into performing in gay pr0n. But I've never heard even any hint of that for him.

R261 Great way to start a rumor.

Tommy took himself out of the business. And really... what major stars ended up doing porn?

R263, Jayne Mansfield was doing "nudies" near the end of her life("Promises, Promises").

[quote] performing in gay pr0n.

You know we can say porn here, right?

You must be a newbie R265.

No, been here since 2008. Just don’t know why you would type it that way.

It’s not a DL tradition or in the lexicon.

Flashing your tits in a movie is not the same as doing porn. And if Barbara Nichols could get a Bowling With the Stars gig in the 1970s, so could Jayne.

R268, Back in the early 1960s it was, especially for a big name star. "Promises, Promises" only played in seedy theaters, along with the low grade porn.

So the same trajectory as Jayne's Italian movies, then...

Oh for Christs's sake, Jayne Mansfield was a sex symbol with big tits that stuck out of her dresses. Tommy Kirk wasn't a sex symbol. Why would he do porn? He didn't even do sexy Hollywood movies. He started a cleaning business, just accept that...

[quote] No, been here since 2008. Just don’t know why you would type it that way. It’s not a DL tradition or in the lexicon.

Yes, it actually is.

Tommy is essentially Sal Mineo without the rep, build or hit record. Both started out well but ended up nowhere.

[quote]Why did Considine leave My Three Sons?

Considine felt he was getting too old, (he was a child star) and asked to do other things like direct or get behind the camera and wanted more adult roles for his character. I read in one bio of Fred MacMurray that Fedderson (who produced the show) and Tim had a huge falling out because of this and they wrote him out of the show.

I am not sure how accurate the last part is since Considine went out didn't leave suddenly but was written out after a wedding arc story.

I always found the characters Tommy Kirk played to be attractive and captivating - they always seemed to have that 80% Hot/20% Nerd mix going on.

I do wonder what he was like off-camera: funny? intelligent? sensitive? kind? witty? hobbies? I suspect that because his Disney persona was such a contrived, two-dimensional construct he was probably a very different person in real life. Also, he had A LOT of “downtime” between films, giving him much time to get into trouble, but what else did he do when he wasn’t filming?

[quote] It’s not a DL tradition or in the lexicon.

"Pron" has been a DL tradition for over20 years.

And technically pr0n but that's OK.

It was meant to evade search parameters.

[quote]Also, he had A LOT of “downtime” between films, giving him much time to get into trouble, but what else did he do when he wasn’t filming?

I remember reading an interview with Annette Funicello, probably in the 80s. She talked about how, back in her day, the Disney kids, the Mouseketeers and others, hung out together, partying, smoking and drinking. The boys wore boots and leather jackets - the opposite of their squeaky clean image. I remember being shoked. We didn't know much about celebs' real lives, especially kids, and Disney stars, so we accepted their professional images as being how they were. It gave me a whole new was of looking at all those kids.

*shocked

Poor guy. Some people in this thread have no historical context. Yes he was in early 20s and his lover was a teenager but they were two gay guys in a heavily oppressive time period who happened upon each other. It was not uncommon for older men to date high school aged girls either, so if that was acceptable than I don't think gay men at the time would have seen an issue fooling around with a high school boy. The idea of teens being literal kids who need overprotection came decades later.

R280 There's *some* truth to what you say. But not this: "It was not uncommon for older men to date high school aged girls either." Yes, it was uncommon. And illegal. Hence, the term, "jail bait." I can't think of too many parents being happy an older man was dating their daughter who was in high school. On the other hand, people got married younger then. So insome cases they dated younger and got engaged younger.

[quote] I can't think of too many parents being happy

But we belong to bourgeois middle-class families. There is a great deal of trash in the world to which we turn a blind eye.

[quote] There's a poster here who hates John Mills

I don’t hate him, R220. I say he had limited talents. He appeared in some of the great films of Britain’s Golden Age of Film — but I suggest they would have been equally as great with someone else in his roles—

[quote] ‘Great Expectations’, ‘Scott of the Antarctic’, ‘In Which We Serve’, ‘The Way to the Stars’, ‘The Young Mr. Pitt’, ‘The Rocking Horse Winner’.

He had a very attractive speaking voice and was perfectly fine playing all those military roles in all those repetitive military movies. He was typecast in those roles because I say he couldn’t play non-English roles. He was inept in the ‘Marlon Brando role’ in the unintentionally-funny ‘TheSinger Not the Song'. And I'm sceptical about his attempting Terence Rattigan’s quasi-gay version of T.E. Lawrence's turmoils on stage. And Bette Davis would have eaten him alive if the original casting of ‘African Queen’ eventuated.

Some English actors could play non-English (Olivier, Leigh, Laughton) and some couldn't, or didn't (Richardson, Gielgud, Jack Hawkins) but that just seems to be some personal standard of yours to judge English acting, that really doesn't make a lot of sense, re talent.

Well, R284, the producers and the casting agents seem to agree that Mills couldn't do non-English roles.

Mills' self tape for the role of Lindy Chamberlain was said to be abysmal.

And they had to cut his attempt at being a Russian peasant down to 90 seconds.

And he won his Academy Award for being ugly and annoying. Form follows function.

Ok so you don't like John Mills. I doubt you've seen a lot of his performances. It's stupid that you need to try to convince me or others of his worthlessness. It's clearly just your personal taste. You probably think David Lean (who cast him 5 times) sucks, too. No idea why you're so invested in this, it's kind of weird. He's dead, he doesn't care.

[quote] You probably think David Lean (who cast him 5 times) sucks, too.

No. David Lean made the most consistent, sensible, thorough, efficient, hardworking and wonderful films from 1942 to 1984.

He's in the top five film-makers of the century.

How much did Lean pay for his CBE?

Did Lean have an ED?

This article from 1991 is pretty nice. He talks about having a carpet and upholstery business already, and he apparently also wrote extensively about the Civil War and tried to sell some screenplays about it.

After finishing Hayley Mills' memoir one can't help but walk away from it feeling like John Mills' was threatened by his daughters' stardom. He allowed her to do Pollyanna per he get cast in the lead in Swiss Family Robinson, he refused to do In Search of the Castaways with his daughter because the part wasn't large enough (and his daughter was to have top billing), and of course, he didn't tell his daughter that she was receiving her special Oscar until after it was delivered to her in London after the ceremony. Disney felt that the family 'used' Hayley's fame to garner funding for a film based on works by her mother (Whistle Down the Wind and Gypsy Girl), one of which also happened to be her father's directorial debut. What's interesting is that Hayley never explicitly criticizes her father throughout the book (though she suggests it would have been nice to have received the Oscar in person) but you can tell a lot is left unsaid. Though her period of enormous fame was brief, it certainly surpassed any level her father achieved and it seems that as a competitive, insecure actor, he didn't actually like that. Indeed, after winning his Oscar in 1970, he said that it was nice to win because now people would know him as more than just Hayley's father.

Were Haley’s parents originally Burlesque folk like Julie’s parents?

Yes. Her mother had a striptease routine named "Ring Them Bells."

I didn't realize that The Lucy Show boy star Jimmy Garrett died last month. He was kinda funny.....but not as cute as Sherman......Ralph Hart.....who is still alive.....so far.

Hayley's father won an Oscar? Who knew?

R298, Older people (like me) knew and appreciated the work of John Mills. His Oscar for RYAN'S DAUGHTER was well-deserved. I don't think I've ever seen Hayley Mills in anything. I did see Juliet Mils on stage in FIVE FINGER EXERCISE.

If you never saw Hayley Mills in anything you're not older you're like over 80.

Hayley Mills is a boomer icon, pretty much based on a handful of films she made before she was 16 years old for Disney. To answer the question above about Hayley's parents, her father was Sir John Mills, a significant British film actor of the post-War era, noted especially for his work with David Lean. Her mother was Mary Hayley Bell, a British author. Perhaps her most famous work, 'Whistle Down the Wind' was turned into a film starring her daughter, though interestingly for the film, the location was changed from the posh 'home counties' to Lancashire to be in alignment with the social realism movement in British cinema in the late '50s/1960s.

R300, I'm not over 80. I'm not 80. I'm under 80 and could have seen Hayley Mills films but didn't.

Who did you see instead?

John Mills was a great actor. Juliet Mills was a pretty good actress, charming - Hayley Mills couldn't act, but she was cute and spunky, and beloved. As an adult her lack of talent became obvious. Even before that. She was terrible in a drama, The Chalk Garden (and got bad reviews). I mean, I love her but let's be honest.

[quote] John Mills was a great actor

Where did he display this greatness best?

R305 Are you the guy who hates him? Or someone else? If you are the hater, do you usually see a all the films of actors you hate? If so, why?

In my opinion, Tunes of Glory, Hobson's Choice, Great Expectations, The End Of The Affair, This Happy Breed, In Which We Serve, The Chalk Garden, Tiger Bay, Ryan's Daughter, Mr. Denning Drives North, The Colditz Story. I also saw him on Broadway in Pygmalion, as Alfred Doolittle.

As a child, Hayley had 'it', she was fresh and very natural in her line readings which is unusual for a child actor Also she was English so her diction was crisp and precise. Judging from what she says in her memoir, she really had no career management, she would have been much better off moving to Hollywood where her charisma could have been exploited in romantic comedies and lighter fare. As it was, she didn't really make any American films outside of the ones for Disney and The Trouble with Angels. She didn't resign with Disney (also a bad move) and chose to be cast in her partner/then husband Roy Boulting's dour films into the early 1970s after which her star had dimmed. She wound up doing British television and independent films while having kids until she re-signed with Disney in the late 1980s when she was already in her 40s.

Hayley wouldn't have been a success anyway post The Summer of Love. "The Love Bug" or whatever wouldn't have added much to her career.

Didn't Hayley Mills do a version of Brief Encounter, as an adult? Maybe on the stage? I thought I read about it @ ten years ago. Also, she was the original star of Saved By The Bell, but didn't last longm why was that?

I’m confused, do we even know if Haley and Tommy ever met? Did she comment on his death or pull a Susan Dey?

R307 did you say she didn't "resign with Disney" or "resign with Disney"?

I though Disney dropped Hayley because she put on too much puppy fat.

Tommy Kirk.

Just a reminder that this thread was started to discuss him.

Thanks, Mouseketeers.

R311 she had a 6 film contract and when it was over, she declined to sign a new one.

[quote] she declined to sign a new one

There has to be more to the story than that.

“Declined to resign” seems like a lyric straight out of Diana: The Musical, along with “girl aswirl.”

I think there's a confusion between 'resign' and 're-sign'.

You can see in That Darn Cat Disney is not quite sure what to do with her as she's getting older. Then the following year she's terrific in The Trouble With Angels. But then she involves herself in what was left of the British kitchen sink dramas which was not a good career movie. With films changing so drastically I don't think there was any place for her in the new wave films in America or England. As in the transition to sound some people were able to hold on to their stardom on screen like Paul Newman and others weren't like Omar Shariff and Elizabeth Taylor.

Can we move on to the sad and tragic life of Kim Richards and what the Disney corporation maybe did or didn’t do to her now?

Can we move on to the sad and tragic life of John Mills?

I’d rather discuss John Stuart Mill.

The word 'homosexual' didn't exist in John Stuart Mill's lifetime.

[quote]I heard him tell this story, once - so did Tommy ever go to Fred later and apologize?

Yes, dressed as Barbara Stanwick from Double Idemnity.

R314 she was a young woman, about to be 18 and didn't want to make Disney product anymore. It's been repeated MANY times since.

She probably could have done the Judy Geeson part in "To Sir With Love."

If we start a Haley Mills thread will people finally begin posting about Tommy Kirk on it?

There already is a Hayley Mills thread. What is there to say about Tommy once carpet took over?

r326 : "Shag."

[quote]As in the transition to sound some people were able to hold on to their stardom on screen like Paul Newman and others weren't like Omar Shariff and Elizabeth Taylor.

Omar Sharif and Elizabeth Taylor were popular stars of silent movies?

[Quote] Elizabeth Taylor were popular stars of silent movies?

If only.

Elizabeth Taylor won an Oscar for Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf in 1966. Black and white, not-glamorous drama. She went on to do some popular things like The Taming Of The Shrew in the late 60s. She and Burton were huge stars even if their movies mostly sucked. She certainly held on to her stardom longer than Hayley Mills!! She successfully made the transition from child to adult star. And she was the biggest star in the world, at one time. Hayley Mills was a child star and briefly a star in her 20's and that was it.

Omar Sharif was never really a big box office star.

I meant the transition of the old Hollywood system to the American new wave. Shariff starred in 3 huge films of the 60s but was an old time star. Even Taylor's star dimmed as the 60s ended along with Burton's. Though their celebrity never waned but no more huge hits for them. Newman who was a star from the 50s still starred in big hits for much of the rest of his career. The new way of making films ushered in a whole new array of stars. People like Ingrid Bergman, Deborah Kerr, Jimmy Stewart and Henry Fonda also did not make it. Steve McQueen did.

[quote]People like Ingrid Bergman, Deborah Kerr, Jimmy Stewart and Henry Fonda also did not make it. Steve McQueen did.

Sorry, but that's a pretty weak argument that doesn't mean a whole lot. The stars you mention as not being able to "make it" were all getting on in years by 1969 and their careers had already cooled off. Bergman turned 54 in 1969, and Kerr was 48. James Stewart was 61 and Fonda was 64. In 1969, Steve McQueen turned 39 and was a relatively new star, not someone who already had a long career in films behind him.

McQueen was a star through the 60s. He was able to easily transition from the old Hollywood to the new. James Garner didn't so made he made his career on TV as did Rock Hudson and Rod Taylor. And Paul Newman was one of the oldest who was already a star of old Hollywood in the 50s.

Don't forget me.

Wasn't Garner always more of a TV star? Didn't he make his name with the "Maverick" TV series?

Yes, R335.

Maverick ended in '62. After which Garner became a movie star. I know you've never heard of The Great Escape, The Thrill of it All, Grand Prix, Support your Local Sherriff... but you might want to check them out. They are enjoyable and Garner is terrific in them.

Steve McQueen during this same period of Maverick was in a TV series called Wanted Dead or Alive.

McQueen became star from movies, not TV.

Then there is another film which you haven't heard of but I recommend called The Americanization of Emily.

Let's not pretend Garner wasn't often a second lead in movies. He was one of those male actors who played second banana to a bigger female lead, e.g. Doris Day. Cancer or no, Steve McQueen would never have played second banana to a late period Lauren Bacall.

Really you consider Garner second banana to Doris Day in The Thrill of It All and Julie Andrews in Americanization? I consider him a co-star. I've never thought of Garner as a second banana. It would like calling Rock Hudson a second banana to Day, Taylor, and Gina.

Put is this way: People talk of Doris Day vehicles, they don't talk about James Garner vehicles. He tended to slot into projects, and well, but he was mostly not number one. Day was number one. I put Rod Taylor in the same boat as Garner.

And you can add Rock Hudson to that list. None of them made it through that transition to the new Hollywood and had to take refuge in TV. Though Hudson attempted to in a good movie called Seconds and a terrible movie called Pretty Maids all in a Row. Rod Taylor starred in one of the best new Hollywood movies and one of the best movies I've seen about the US the bomb Zabriskie Point. Though admittedly it was an Antonioni movie. Foreigners often make the best movies about America.

Garner was under contract to Warner Bros and starred in such films of the late 50s and early 60s as Darby's Rangers, Up Periscope, and Cash McCall - while starring on TV as Maverick. These were the unusual terms of his Warner Bros contract. After he got out of the contract he had several good years of movie stardom. I seriously would not call his roles in Doris Day pictures supporting. One of the two he did with her was Move Over, Darling, a remake of My Favorite Wife. No one would say Cary Grant supported Irene Dunne in My Favorite Wife, and Garner didn't support Day. They were costars. In The AmericanIzation Of Emily, he was a costar. His part was really the flashier of the two leads. He made movies into the 70s, then he did TV more again.

I wouldn't put Rock Hudson in the same category as Garner. Didn't Rock Hudson feature in the Top Box Office Stars list for quite a few years? Was James Garner ever in the Top 3? Top 5?

Yes, Rock Hudson did feature in the Top Box Office and he was billed over Doris. But Doris emasculated him —and Cary Grant and Stephen Boyd— in her witless women's movies.

[quote]Day was number one. I put Rod Taylor in the same boat as Garner.

You must be talking about "The Glass Bottom Boat," R342.

Four Dorises to One Rod at r347. I rest my case.

Rod starred in The Birds and The Time Machine films which today have more currency than anything Doris ever did R348. I rest my case.

'Tippi' starred. Rod supported.

No, Rod got star billing and Tippi was 'introduced.'

That's not unusual for a newcomer. It's her movie.

Hedren not only got the central image on the poster, she got her own headshot.

Yeah the white damsel in distress trope. Rod Taylor got star billing.

And what was Hitchcock on the poster exploiting? The Portly Gentleman trope? You feature what you're selling. No one talks about Rod Taylor in "The Birds."

Tommy Kirk died for our sins.

I'll get busy so his sacrifice won't be in vain. Thanks R356.

[quote]Rod starred in The Birds and The Time Machine films which today have more currency than anything Doris ever did R348. I rest my case.

Rod Taylor was also the voice of Pongo in Disney's "101 Dalmatians." Another classic!

There you go.

Natalie Wood is a good example of a young star of 'Old Hollywood' whose film career didn't survive the transition to the American 'New Wave'. She was the same age as Jane Fonda and Vanessa Redgrave but outside of Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice, which was an ensemble piece she was pretty much through as a leading lady by the late 1960s and she was only in her early 30s. By comparison, Fonda's career was just taking off and Redgrave's was at its peak and would continue for a good decade at a high level.

When did Leonard Maltin start posting here?

Maltin is a biographer of Disney and a historian of the Disney studios therefore it would be natural that he would join in the conversation and then widen the scope of the discussion from Tommy Kirk and his influence on the American new wave to other actors and their career history during the same period of time.

[quote] Tommy Kirk and his influence on the American new wave.

I've never heard of the American new wave.

Is it vaguely similar to the French New Wave or, perhaps, the Marcel Wave?

It was documented in the film The Endless Summer.

[quote]Rod starred in The Birds and The Time Machine films which today have more currency than anything Doris ever did [R348]. I rest my case.

"The Time Machine films"? There was only one.

I like Rod Taylor. He was a star, not a big star, and not for very long. Doris Day was a huge star, people still love her, she also starred in a Hitchcock film, probably a better one than The Birds, which is a lot of long, dull conversations interrupted by bird attacks. I never heard any of Rod's records, was he a good singer? How was his dancing? As good as Doris's? Because she could act, sing, dance, play comedy and drama.

I bow to no one in my love for Day. But there isn't one of her films today that is an iconic classic. I mean Pillow Talk? (Which I like very much.) And there are a number of Hitchcock films to put before TMWKTM.

R366 Who cares? She's the iconic classic.

It was I who was obviously responsible for the American New Wave.

It was a tragedy of terrible proportions that Taylor never even showed his butt in a movie.

R369 No one showed their buttocks in the 1960s.

Most of them were forbidden to show their navel.

Doris and Rod had a wonderful affair while making their two films together and Taylor always spoke very warmly of working with her.

[quote] Doris and Rod had a wonderful affair

Yes, I was peeking through the curtains while they consummated this adulterous behavior.

Doris never would have had an extra marital affair!

(r373) Doris actually had several and had no qualms about it from the time her marriage to Marty Melcher descended into a marriage "in name only" in late 1962. For the last 5 plus years, prior to his death in April, 1968, they lived in the same house on North Crescent Drive in Beverly Hills, but went their own ways, as far as sex was concerned. The only promise they made was to be discrete, something Marty was unable to do.

Doris was no "Goody two-shoes" but rather a normal, healthy woman who enjoyed sex, when some level of feeling was involved.

I remember when I worked at a restaurant in Aspen in 1984/85, that Doris Day visited John Denver, with whom she'd done a television special, as well as appearing on one of his. Despite the two decade difference in their age, it was very obvious to all of us that their dinners together were about more than friendship. It was just the two of them and they held hands, sipped wine and kissed. The staff were shocked although it made some of us look at Doris Day in a different and more enlightened way. We stopped thinking of her in gingham and pigtails but instead, as a woman and if I recall correctly, her figure was a standout.

I recently watched that special again and wanted to scream at the screen, "Get a room you too!". It was obvious something was going on and when Doris pats John's ass at one point, the "girl next door" went right out the door.

[quote] healthy woman

Very healthy and very clean. And I bet her healthy German relatives joined in with the Strength Through Joy Movement.

You've ruined all of Day's films for me. I can't even imagine what went on on all those overnight big band bus tours. Her reputation bas been soiled.

Alan Bates showed his butt (and cock). Robert Forster springs to mind as well. There are others.

(r 377) Actually Doris was married and/or a new mother during her Big Band years. She didn't have affairs with the other musicians in Les Brown's Band. Her first overt affair was with Frank Sinatra in 1947 when they were doing "Your Hit Parade" together on the radio. Other early affairs were with Jack Carson, when they worked together at Warners in 1947/48 and Bob Hope when they did radio and toured together.

After marrying Melcher in April of 1951, she was faithful to him, although he was not faithful to her, until 1956 while filming "Julie" for MGM in Carmel.

She and co-star Louis Jourdan became involved. After that brief affair, there was no one else until late in 1962 when she began filming "The Thrill of it All" at Universal. She and co-star James Garner engaged in a very emotional affair, which contributed to Day's well publicized separation from Melcher and a brief separation for Garner and his wife.

Day broke it off when she realized the damage it would do to Garner's family. She lost a tremendous amount of weight as evidenced by her appearance in her second pairing with Garner, "Move Over, Darling" in 1963. Day and Garner agreed to not share space at any Hollywood event after the premiere of "Thrill" in June of 1963. They eventually maintained a "just friends" relationship via the telephone and Garner did tape a brief tribute to Day in 1989 as part of the Hollywood Foreign Press awarding of the DeMille Award to Day.

[quote]The staff were shocked although it made some of us look at Doris Day in a different and more enlightened way.

Wonder why celebrities would act that way in public? Wouldn't it have hurt their careers or reputations if it had made the news or tabloids?

^ Doris' career was going downhill at that point.

(R381) Actually Doris was doing just fine. She had a top rated television special and her autobiography with A.E. Hotchner was about to come out and top the NY Times beset seller list, leading to numerous film and television offers - all of which she refused, preferring to make animal welfare the important issue in her life.

R381What's the logic of that? Eh, my career is going downhill anyway, might as well destroy it?

[quote]Really you consider Garner second banana to Doris Day in The Thrill of It All

He was a second rate Deam Martin in Move Over Darling.

(R383) Actually Doris was feeling quite liberated. In September of 1974 she appeared on Johnny Carson's Show, braless and created quite a sensation. Soon after she met Warren Beatty at a party and he pursued her for several weeks, sending flowers to her home and calling, until her secretary told him he was wasting his time.

I don't think she cared at that point what the press or public thought. She had lived with too many restrictions and controls, many of them imposed by Melcher. That continued until 1973 when she stopped her television sitcom after 128 episodes and 5 seasons. She was then able to live life on her own terms, finally.

R379 Stalker!!!

When Day appeared in a bikini on her CBS sitcom in 1973, at the age of 51, she received a lot of flack from fans. She didn't care and it was that reaction that partially contributed to her turning down an offer to continue for a 6th season.

"My last picture for Warners was Romance on the High Seas. It was Doris Day's first picture; that was before she became a virgin.“ — Oscar Levant, book The Memoirs of an Amnesiac

[Quote] I don't think she cared at that point what the press or public thought.

Not quite true. In her autobiography, she made a point of denying affairs with numerous black celebrities.

(R389) That was a decision made by A.E. Hotchner who worked with her on the book. He felt that the America of 1975, the year the book was published, was not ready for that revelation about Day.

She also had a long affair with Patrick O'Neal her co-star in WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE LIGHTS WENT OUT.

(R391) yes, that was in late 1971 and early 1972. The affair with Rod Taylor was in 1965.

I never understood quite where Doris got her amazing body. For one thing, she used to have a soda fountain in her home, like her childhood idol, Ginger Rogers, also had. Did she get that figure eating banana splits and drinking milkshakes?

[quote]Not quite true. In her autobiography, she made a point of denying affairs with numerous black celebrities.

Who were the numerous black celebrities? And how do we know for a fact that she had affairs with any of these numerous black celebrities?

(R393) The soda fountain was mostly Marty's idea to promote an "image" and, in reality, Doris enjoyed an occasional Scotch and water.

She truly enjoyed exercise and that was a passion for her. When she was younger she had a rather large posterior. Bob Hope called her "J.B" as in Jut-butt, and said it publicly. She was slightly offended when people would stare as she exited a room. She found that swimming 100 laps a day, twice a day, took care of that situation. She also biked, almost daily and often several times a day when she was not worked. She played tennis and was very active.

She took pride in looking good but was never egotistical about it. She ate sensibly, enjoyed that drink from time to time and would splurge, once a week, at Bailey's Bakery in Beverly Hills. Otherwise, she didn't practice a rigid routine.

Doris was one of those people who looked really great during a certain period. of time. The early to mid-50's styles, were not flattering, but designers like Jean Louis and Irene knew how to accentuate what she had as did Helen Rose when she dressed her for "Love Me or Leave Me". When shopping for herself, Doris usually knew her strengths.

[quote]When she was younger she had a rather large posterior. Bob Hope called her "J.B" as in Jut-butt, and said it publicly. She was slightly offended when people would stare as she exited a room. She found that swimming 100 laps a day, twice a day, took care of that situation

Yeah and it looked great. See My Dream Is Yours for a good look at it. I don't know why she would want to reduce it.

[quote]She took pride in looking good but was never egotistical about it. She ate sensibly, enjoyed that drink from time to time and would splurge, once a week, at Bailey's Bakery in Beverly Hills. Otherwise, she didn't practice a rigid routine. Doris was one of those people who looked really great during a certain period. of time. The early to mid-50's styles, were not flattering, but designers like Jean Louis and Irene knew how to accentuate what she had as did Helen Rose when she dressed her for "Love Me or Leave Me". When shopping for herself, Doris usually knew her strengths.

She like to eat at Canter's Deli, I believe.

I wasn't really talking about her in clothing. I was talking about the screen shot someone posted of her in a bikini, showing a lot of skin. She seemed to have a killer body. And pretty muscular. Maybe the swimming and bicycling explains it. Or just really good genes.

Funny how a Tommy Kirk thread transitioned into a Doris Day thread.

[Quote] And how do we know for a fact that she had affairs with any of these numerous black celebrities?

Who claimed we knew for a fact?

[quote]Funny how a Tommy Kirk thread transitioned into a Doris Day thread.

Like Bruce into Caitlyn.

And here I thought Doris Day's ladypetals smelled of Lysol and had one of those paper seals "certified virginal" on it.

Are you kidding?!

I was, R401 :)

Christ you Doris Dayers, get a room, make a thread of your own, poor little Tommy is going to be forgotten enough by history, no need for it to happen in his own thread!

He'll always be the Monkey's Uncle.

(R396) Actually it was Nate n' Al's Deli in Beverly Hills that she frequented. She would bike there from her home on North Crescent Drive. I dined with her dozens of times and she ate like a truckdriver.

The bikini shot, taken in 1973 - a scene from a fashion show episode of her series - provided her the opportunity to show, at 51, that those 100 laps twice a day in her pool, had benefits.

She jokingly said one time to a room of friends, "Every morning I get up and do a hundred laps...(pause)...then I jump in the pool..."

Surely somewhere on the internet there is a Wilby Daniels-Moochie slash fiction site.

R401 Look at her flashing her large breasts.

I'd be embarrassed being in the same room.

[quote]Who claimed we knew for a fact?

R398There was this exchange not that far back.

[quote]In her autobiography, she made a point of denying affairs with numerous black celebrities.

[quote]That was a decision made by A.E. Hotchner who worked with her on the book. He felt that the America of 1975, the year the book was published, was not ready for that revelation about Day.

It sounds like R390 is saying it was a fact. The "revelation" would be a revelation of a fact, I assume.

[Quote] "Every morning I get up and do a hundred laps...(pause)...then I jump in the pool..."

Is that a joke about bouncing up and down on men's laps?

(R409) Doris had an amazing sense of humor. She let others interpret the joking remark.

I wonder if Tommy continued to be a top when he got back from England in 1062?

Or even 1962?

He should have stuck around for the Magna Carta.

Tommy was the first of a series of actors who had a certain generic “wholesome” look. Another one who bore the same look was Wil Wheaton:

As well as Tobey Maguire:

Toby Maguire didn't look wholesome to me. Look at his face. He looks like a perv.

Yeah. He's got a strange look. Not at all an all American clean cut look.

R414 could be Jane Fonda.