Jackie and Lee

There's always primogeniture in society families, even with only girls.

Lee and Jackie were at the height of their Sixties style on their tour of India, riding camels side-saddle wearing crisp shift dresses in pinks and pastels.

With pearls, of course.

Lee was never on assistance.

No. Lee was to Jackie what Lana Wood was to Natalie Wood.

"Lee was a bitch."

Lee wanted Jackie's fame

Jackie wanted Lee's private life

Lee was never attractive, physically or otherwise. Jackie's looks began to fade even before she married the Onassis ogre.

I had both those bitches beat!

Little Edie was incredibly beautiful.

And staunch, R9.

R4, Jackie may not have had the quite the level of fame as Joan but while Joan has had to work well into her dotage to support her (much) younger husband, Jackie lived in the lap of luxury and had a net worth north of $150 million dollars at her death.

I think both are pretty and stylish but neither were beautiful. Jackie is an interesting person to me. Because she was very educated and quite intelligent. She worked as a journalist and liked traveling and photography. But I think she married below her station with that white trash, drug-addicted and STI-ridden Kennedy clan who all just thugs with money. Yeah, she needed wealth and stability but all that stress and headache from marrying a cheating narcissist who looked like orange leather after a while then marrying the ugly troll Onassis. I can't comprehend it.

R12, actually Jackie was a bit of smoke and mirrors. She was 3/4 Irish, grand daughter of a cabinet maker, and her mother lied about being a Virginia Lee until Jackie made her stop. They up-jumped early on and married well. Her father Black Jack was a charming dissolute playboy by the time she was a toddler and she was sort of a hanger-on stepdaughter to Auchincloss. She had a chip on her shoulder. She was well matched with Kennedy.

Jackie definitely took after her father and JFK Jr has some resemblance too. They all had a "black Irish look".

I read somewhere that Black Jack was bisexual too. Something JFK Jr also inherited from him.

I never thought Jackie was at all attractive until she was in her 40s, and finally settled in to a normal life. Lee was far more beautiful, but never married with the same flair…a washed up pseudo prince can’t compare to a US President or a shipping tycoon. Meh.

[quote] She was the prettiest one.

PRETTIER

"Oh Liz, they're just a couple of fags."

I'll ruin her.

Like many siblings, in some photos Jackie and Lee looked astonishingly similar in some ways, but quite different in others. In the end, I think Lee was prettier, but Jackie exuded more of that "mystique." Maybe it's because of the unanticipated terrible history of her husband's Presidential assassination that her persona came to be associated with, literally on both the physical and pop-cultural levels. Then Lee went on to live so many years longer, although Jackie seemed to have lived 3 lifetimes or so due to all the events she seemed to experience, albeit she ended up becoming ill and passing away relatively younger in her early 60s.

That bitch stole my house.

I don't know. When I look at that first picture I just can't stop looking at Jackie. Lee just looks boring in comparison. Jackie is stunning.

Agreed, r22. I think the key is that Jackie, with her wide face and high cheekbones, was pretty photogenic.

....

In that picture of Jack Bouvier above, he seems to have eyes widely-spaced apart, too. Maybe she just inherited that from him and it wasn't because of FAS, as so many people say.

[quote] In that picture of Jack Bouvier above, he seems to have eyes widely-spaced apart, too. Maybe she just inherited that from him and it wasn't because of FAS, as so many people say.

It's somewhat disconcerting seeing Jackie's face on a man. She resembles her father that much.

She didn’t have FAS. She was highly intelligent and well read. If she’d had it, the family would have hidden her in a closet.

[quote]Lee never understood it. She was the prettiest one. But nobody paid any attention.

What the hell?? I was a PRINCESS, dammit!!!

[quote] I was a PRINCESS, dammit!!!

That classy lady that no one knows where she’s the princess of.

A swan...

And a thespian.

Jackie looks exactly like her father. That's kinda creepy.

I just watched "The Crown" and the woman they cast for Jackie would have been perfect to play Lee! WTF? Jackie had the wide spaced eyes in a moon pie face and Lee was more angular. Since so many other characters are cast with people who look decidedly different from the person and from the previous actors who played them, one has to be able to look beyond the discrepancies, but this really stood out to me because it seemed like they purposely cast the wrong Bouvier sister!

[quote] She didn’t have FAS.

Yep, she just inherited her father's wide-set eyes and face. I don't either were bad-looking. The Kennedys looked way more inbred with their busted teeth, long faces and squinty eyes.

You're absolutely right, R33.

She was kicked off The Rolling Stones 1972 tour after arriving with Truman Capote and Peter Beard, neither of whom were invited with Truman, who was there to write an article for Rolling Stone magazine.

I know someone who was Jackie's assistant at Doubleday. She said Jackie was a lovely person and an incredibly considerate boss.

Jackie was said to have loved her father, Black Jack Bouvier. But he was a very difficult man.

Black Jack showed up at Jackie's wedding to Jack Kennedy with literally a few minutes to go but so drunk he literally, physically couldn't stand up, much less walk her down the aisle. Her stepfather Hugh Auchincloss stepped in with less than a minute to go to walk her down the aisle. They were lifelong genuinely fond of each other .

The relationship between Jackie and Gore Vidal is often not fully understood. Auchincloss was, at different times of course, the second husband of each of their mothers. So at different times he was the stepfather of each Jackie and Gore.

That first photo of Jackie and Lee at the OP. Looks a lot like publicity stills for a classic film of the 1950s.

They both look like Movie Stars in that photo.

R11 Jackie never had anywhere near a $150 million estate at the time of her death.

Her estate was actually $43.7 million according to the Nytimes. I don't understand why people continue to insist her estate was north of $100 million when it never was. $150 million is a nice number, but it wasn't true. Her last partner wasn't the magic money man, talking about templeman.

Jackie married Onassis because her aunt and cousin Big Edie and Little Edie were terrifying cautionary tales about what happens if you don't marry a man who can secure you financially.

Capote really fucked himself by relying on Lee to back him up in a lawsuit where Gore Vidal sued Capote for saying he (Vidal) was thrown out the front door at a White House event onto Pennsylvania Avenue while in a drunken stupor. Capote revealed this in an interview he did for (of all things) Playgirl Magazine. Gore engaged in a verbal wrestling match with Bobby at that event, after Bobby saw a drunk Vidal steady himself on Jackie's shoulder when he was getting up. But he wasn't thrown out, he was actually convinced to leave, safely deposited in a car and driven home. The whole case hinged on Princess Bitch's testimony because she was the one who told Truman how the whole thing happened. But she refused to get involved and said to (a closeted) Liz Smith: "Oh Liz, what do we care. They're just a couple of fags."

Capote had just spent a few years devoting himself to making Lee a star (which of course was a fool's game) and for the rest of his life he cursed her name. In the end Capote ended up issuing a public letter of apology to settle the lawsuit with Vidal.

I don't blame Jackie for marrying wealth. She wanted security and stability and thats what women did back then. Probably today too.

What her aunt and cousin became probably scared the shit out of her.

I think Jackie was a venal and horrid woman ( very close in character to Vairst Letty though admittedly more intelligent) and I don't think much of Lee at all. I am confused by OPs wording. Does he think Jackie or Lee was prettier?

R27 Or lobotimized her .

If Jackie and Lee's grandfather was so wealthy, why didn't they both have generous trust funds set up to provide for them? Especially he being the father of their mother.

Didn't he design a lot of the buildings that line Park Avenue and Fifth Avenue? Those are beautiful ritzy buildings, I'm sure some serious capital came from designing them. What happened to all of his money?

I always thought it was odd that they depended so heavily on the money of "Black Jack" when Janet's father was also supposed to be wealthy.

[quote]I think Jackie was a venal and horrid woman

Why? She lived her life with the utmost decorum.

I think Jackie is too hard looking to be pretty. And I'll get flamed for this, but she's too big and blunt boned for those tailored and crisp outfits. She needed looser clothing while Lee looked best in the classic fashion Jackie wore

James T Lee was NOT the sort of rich man to spread his wealth about. His attitude was basically "I worked my ass off for this wealth, so you need to work your ass off for yours!" Yes, he was even this way with his three daughters, ESPECIALLY with Janet. She defied him by marrying BJ Boucher, and he held it against her and her offspring for the rest of his life. Janet had to wait for his death in 1968 before she ever got any real money from him. I think it was 1.6 million dollars she inherited for herself, only! Of course her surviving sister got the same sum as did the children of her deceased sister to divide among themselves.

Black Jack Bouvier - wedding day to Janet Lee - 1928

R38. Janet made sure her ex-husband’s hotel room/suite was well stocked with alcohol. She knew he would be unable to stay sober enough to walk his daughter down the aisle

Janet and Black Jack wedding

Jackie's mother Janet was a first-class cunt and was widely disliked by pretty much everyone.

Lee was so thin!

^^^ Not really - that's just become the accepted narrative. She was ferociously protective of her children, and Jackie, in particular, allowed herself to be guided by her mother to her station in life.

No, Janet was a real bitch. It's been written about extensively.

But was Janet a real bitch to her daughters? Is she something they had to "deal with" their entire lives?

Yes, Jackie and Lee had a strained relationship with her.

It's really unnerving how much Jackie resembles her dad. Damn!

I look like my dad but not nearly as closely as Jackie resembles Black Jack.

R54 Yeah, too thin.

A lot of writers have attempted to glorify Lee's looks over Jackie's. To me, however, Lee always resembled a rat, an emaciated rat. Jackie was much more attractive and memorable looking.

Lee was naturally pretty but Jackie was sexy. That's the difference between the two in my opinion.

Lee was always bone thin. Bird like. As a Lesbian, I don't go for that. Lee was built like a schoolgirl.

Jackie was tall, kept a disciplined posture, and stayed slender- not bone thin like Lee.

I'm of the opinion that Jackie remained intellectually curious her whole life. She was an explorer of the world of ideas.

When Jackie worked at Doubleday, a fellow employee reports that Jackie was on the phone with her mother Janet after she had married her third husband, Booch Morris, who did not treat her well. According to the source, Jackie hung up with her mother in tears, dropping absolutely everything in her office and continued crying out the door in great worrisome fear for her welfare relating to Morris. Jackie went from Doubleday to Newport then and there to see about her mother. That's love!

R40, I understand how you could be confused but I was not referring to Jackie O but rather Jackie Collins, who was indeed worth north of $150 million when she died.

Like any sisters, Jackie and Lee could be the best of friends or the worst of enemies. I wrote a blog on a book I read on Lee several years back. (It's not much more than a glorified book report, but gives some insight into their dynamic.) See attached link.

Side note: I have x3 sisters and am the oldest, the only boy, and am gay. The drama I've had with my sisters over the years could fill a telenovela's bible of plot lines for years and years. And it continues currently! Sibling rivalries, squabbles, and competition can last a lifetime. Especially where money is involved.

I've said this before, but those bouffant hairdos and structured Chanel suits of the early '60s may have looked smart and chic, but they made the Bouvier sisters look so old. The more relaxed styles of the early to mid '70s, however, gave them a youthful and hipper energy.

Lee had the sweeter clit.

I'd like to see a really well done documentary on Jackie & Lee. Or even a limited series, they lived interesting lives.

Their life stories are just as interesting as Elizabeth & Margaret over in the UK. I personally find Jackie & Lee more interesting. They were more free in life to do whatever they wanted vs. the other two.

No comparison. Onassis was kind, down to earth, funny, very smart and yes quite wealthy as time went on. Lee was none of theses things and about as popular in the NYC society set of her day (Nan, Brooke, Pat, Annette, Zip, etc as Leona Helmsley. Lee was also frequently in financial distress.

Mrs O was incredibly charismatic in person, Lee, not at all.

And R11, Mrs O’s Sotheby’s auction and sale of her Martha’s Vinyard property brought in much more than 45 million. This does not include her 5th Ave apt or NJ estate. Further, the larger portion of her wealth was in trust to her grandchildren and that amount is not publicly available information that The NY Times could access.

So……

It seems Jackie was more relaxed when married Onassis and could distance herself from the Kennedys. Onassis spoiled her, gave her freedom and she had security too. She could finally breathe.

Onassis may have been affable and given Jackie some semblance of security but don't most accounts say he'd had more than enough of her and had already seen lawyers about a divorce by the time he died?

She could have been a model

For those who'd be interested in viewing the grounds of Hammersmith Farm.

R71 that is my understanding yes. He even tipped off paparazzi as to where she was sunbathing nude. He did this after some dispute over money, I can't recall the details.

Happy Birthday to JBKO - she'd have turned 92 today.

Happy birthday former first lady Jackie!

R50 & R52 - At his wedding, Black Jack looked like a Silent Film Star. He could give Ramon Navarro or Valentino a run for their money.

I think both women were attractive in their own way - Jackie was exotic looking while Lee was more girl next door. It's a shame Jackie died too young. At least, she didn't live long enough to experience the loss of her son John.

On the other hand, R78, John Jr. likely would not have taken up flying had his mother still been alive.

I Jackie were still alive, she would be doing commercials for Depends Undergarments. I know it.

R80 I highly doubt that very much. Jackie was very wealthy had plenty of assets and valuable properties etc.

She lived on fifth Avenue and definitely would not have needed the money. She would've never reduced herself to something like that, especially being a former American first lady.

She was very conscious of History!

So conscious of history, R81, that she knew HER place on history was next to JFK & insisted on being buried alongside him.

R82 Exactly. She was somewhat of a historian herself. I love people who are conscious of history and there place in it.

Did Jackie have any decorating style? For some reason I imagine her apt would always be classically outdated but I have no idea.

I think her apartment was probably in the style of old WASP money. Eventhough she wasn't necessary a WASP

I'm not sure if someone could be a mix of Irish French and English and still be WASP?

Jackie's apartment at 1040 Fifth Avenue

Thanks r86. Some lovely things and some hideous things. She can't have used a decorator. This scream Jackie on Assistance. What I expected.

Jackie's apartment pretty much "society lady" from her generation. It's not bad, it's just of its time.

That giant plant thing on top of the piano, terrible. I hope it didn't need watering, because you should never place anything requiring water on top of a piano. I'm very protective of my piano, I can't believe some people will actually put their drinks down on it.

Janet and Jackie with Old Joe

R90 A number of agendas swirling in that photo.

Jackie was an odd looking little girl. She looked exactly like she did as an adult.

I agree with R92. It's strange, too. Personally, I've always thought that she was....hmmmm......situated on a less common spiritual plane than most, perhaps.....

She really looks nothing like her mother—not even a smidgen. She also doesn’t look like Lee her duster. Maybe she was the daughter of one of her dad’s mistresses.

Hah! Lee may have been her duster, but I meant sister at r94.

Both Jackie & Lee were attractive.

Everyone has a little character to their appearance.

My goodness!

Janet was certainly her own mother, but she certainly looked a great deal like her father.

I wonder how many people know that Jackie’s Mother also had a daughter, I’m guessing with Auchincloss who ‘s name was also Janet? She died fairly young, like maybe in her 20’s, I think maybe from cancer.

R98 - I didn't know that.

Jackie's mother also had a daughter? She did. Her name was Jackie.

Janet’s third daughter was Janet Auchincloss (can’t recall her married name). She lived in Hong Kong for some time and, as above, died young.

Jackie’s younger sister Janet Auchincloss died at the age of 40 in 1985 from cancer. Jackie was very close to her. Janet lived in Hong Kong with her banking executive husband husband and had three kids. Jackie left a bequest to only one of the kids in her will.

Jackie and Janet Jr.’s younger brother is Jamie Auchincloss, who was born in 1947. The last time he was in the news was in 2012, he was living in Oregon and busted for kiddie porn.

Jackie and Jamie had a falling out in the 70s; prior to that he spent a lot of time with her. He claims it’s because he told Kitty Kelley that Jackie’s assassination suit was in their mother’s Georgetown attic, but I wonder if it’s because she found out he was a pedo.

[quote] But nobody paid any attention.

I can imagine.

Janet Auchincloss, Jr

We never hear anything about Janet jr on this site.

Strange, everything is about Jackie & Lee. But I guess it's because they're both the ones most known.

Didn't Lee need serious $$$ at one point, and asked their mother Janet for $750K and Jackie was upset about it?

What would you like to know, R105?

R106, it was $650k, and yes, the others were upset with Lee. Janet, Sr contracted and eventually died of Alzheimer's. She had been asking several of her children if they needed any money - EVEN JACKIE! They all had the good sense and compassion to lovingly decline her offer. All but Lee, that is. Janet gave her the full proceeds from the sale of her O St home in Georgetown. No one else knew until the deed was already done.

Lewis Polk Rutherfurd in old age. He was Janet, Jrs husband.

Janet and Jamie at JFK grave, Arlington 1972

Anyone ever seen pics of Janet Jr.'s children? Does Jamie have any?

No pics of Janet's kids. Jamie never talked of his homosexuality, though he never hid it either.

That Summer starring Lee Radio will with the Edies for anyone who'd like to watch. Spoiler alert: Little Edie looks like she's going to beat the he'll out of Lee more than once....

R111 I've seen " That Summer" it's on YouTube. I watched a few months ago. I don't know if it's still up, but it was on YouTube in 10 minute increments.

I enjoyed it. Interesting documentary.

I had know idea there were two Kennedy gardens at the white house. There's the white house Kennedy rose garden, that Melania just pulled up last summer. And than over on the east wing of the white house, is the Jacqueline Kennedy garden.

I just realized that yesterday. I'm obsessed with the white house and the gardens there.

Neither one of them were true beauties. Not with those big block heads. They were barely attractive. And they also both had massive hands and feet. Glorified courtesans.

R112, I had no idea it was on YT, and here it in full. - R111

Forgot to mention that this is the documentary where Big Edie outs the affair between Little Edie and Black Jack Bouvier!

R115 I'm glad I could bring that to your attention.

Enjoy!

That Summer was good. Little Edie obviously had some screws loose. Lee was very patient with her.

Lee came off very nice in Tbat Summer.

Lee sounds like a man. I never realized what a deep voice she has. So different from Jackie's breathy vocalizations.

Interesting theory here…

It's not that interesting to think that Jackie Kennedy may have had a black ancestor back in the 1650s or so, nearly 300 years before Jackie was born.

When The Crown ends, those producers should give these stories that royal treatment.

[quote]Forgot to mention that this is the documentary where Big Edie outs the affair between Little Edie and Black Jack Bouvier!

My jaw dropped on that one! Big Edie really went in. There's something sad about the exploitation of these two, no matter how interesting the story.

Watching "That Summer" reminded me of how accurate "Sandy Passage" was, especially Big Edie's singing...

In "That Summer" you see Little Edie interacting with people and it really shows how batshit crazy she was.

They were both very 'special' in their own way. Sometimes- 'extra special'.

The house was eventually sold to Ben Bradlee and his vile wicked cunt wife Sally Quinn.

R94 Duster? Will the disrespect towards poor Lee ever end?!

R116 What? Wasn't Black Jack Little Edie's uncle??

He sure was R130. I wonder if Lee knew that when they made the movie.

R131 She knew Big Edie was her aunt and Little Edie was her cousin, so I'm assuming so. Did I miss something? .lol

Yes R132 but did she know Little Edie was fucking her father?

What about the older gay man who's speaking to Lee and the other guy going on and on about Black Jack's sex life - constantly alluding to the fact that there was A LOT of tea, but he wasn't going to spill. It HAS been said that BJBouvier was no. Old queen said he lived in the apartment below him all those years ago...

**** that BJB was bi

For those who've seen the name mentioned in various JBKO biographies, this is her hairdresser, Kenneth. Look who he's with. Jackie was smart.

Lee was pleasant to look at, and probably prettier in person than Jackie in person. But Jackie was extremely photogenic and always stylish, and she became the most photographed woman in the world. Lee by comparison doesn't seem nearly as photogenic, though must have been pretty in person.

[quote]In "That Summer" you see Little Edie interacting with people and it really shows how batshit crazy she was.

Schizophrenic or on the spectrum? She was crazy, but in a unique way that was hard to pin down.

Jackie and Lee both could've been Movie Stars if they wanted to. They both had star quality and that thing certain people just have, I can't spell it out.

Doctors with ample prescription pads?

R139, Princess Lee's brief venture into acting--"The Philadelphia Story" on the Chicago stage in'67, and "Laura" on ABC in '68--was disastrous. The critics were hostile and Lee never again dared to appear on stage or before the cameras to showcase her talent.

I think Lee looks lovely in this footage taken on opening night of "The Philadelphia Story."

R142 yes, gorgeous. I wonder if “Laura” is available to watch anywhere.

Look up "Vapid" and her pic will be right there.

R139 and R141, I am confused. Does one need to do more than look lovely to be a star?

That just seems unfair.

When you hear her speak in R142 's clip all the charisma evaporates.

Lee was ugly.

I don’t think either were very beautiful. Jackie always looked like a frog to me. But what do I know? They both were elegant and glamorous.

When I was a kid, my Irish/Italian parents had this portrait of Jack and Jackie on the kitchen wall. With the cruel but honest eye of childhood, I thought she looked weirdly unattractive. I still don’t think it’s the best photo of her.

I never thought Jackie was that attractive. I think she was compared to previous First Ladies, who were way older than she was.

My masterpiece: Windswept Jackie

I stopped drinking the JBKO koolaid years ago. The more I read about her and her equally mercenary sister, the less I like her.

R151 little mosquito bites

R149, that is a strange picture of Jackie.

[quote]Does one need to do more than look lovely to be a star?

Nope!

Jackie's breathy, Marilyn Monroe-style diction was just an affectation. Her normal speaking voice can be heard on audio tapes.

Jackie had odd features, but it all worked. She was a very unusual-looking woman, when you think about it.

Jackie had a head like a dolphin.

She was too sanctimonious for a courtesan. A few years back they released some tapes of her speaking to a journalist where she proceeds to trash everyone from MLK to de Gaulle and a bunch of others. For some one so materialistic she was on an awfully high horse.

Correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t Pete Hamill criticize Jackie in print and then go on to date her? Imagine the scrambling and apologizing he had to do. Not to mention the hypocrisy, although I don’t blame him, she was a major score.

As if she could talk. She had no dignity; her husband gave the the clap several times, but she stayed put because she could be bought. She had no soul.

I have a feeling it was Pete Hamill's criticism that made him attractive to her.

My gut tells me that Jackie sought out men who "put her in her place."

[quote]She had no dignity;

Jackie DEFINED dignity during the 60s.

Actually, knowing what we know now about politicians, seems like their marriage was pretty typical.

R161 obviously has never had a relationship and doesn't have a clue what they're about.

Loser!

R165 - caught the clap from his hubby but STAYED for the COIN.

Prostitution whore.

They both always carried themselves like ladies. Unlike TFGs wife.

Nancey Reagan was obsessed with jackie, I think she wanted to be her in her own tacky way.

R167 I always have the worst time with initials and acronyms. Who is TFG?

R168, it stands for The Former Guy. 🤣🤣🤣

Great pic!

I’m sorry but the sisters sound like typical socialites from that era, elitist, greedy and selfish. Nothing classy about either one of the Bouvier sisters. And those FEET!

Speaking of " socialites" I came across a documentary about "professional socialites" on YouTube yesterday. I think it was on vice news.

Paris Hilton is in it, and it's basically about a bunch of young rich LA assholes who want to be invited to all of the right parties and photographed with interesting people and are obsessed with social media and Instagram etc. I didn't watch the whole thing, but there's people out there aspire to be professional socialites and who want to basically be circus creatures.

These are not the classic idea of what a socialite use to be. There's more of a circus element to it today.

As odious as Paris Hilton is r172, there is little difference between her and many of her ilk from previous generations.

R173 Paris Hilton dose make her own money though.