Miami Condo Collapse - Part 5

Now I want to go look up under the drop ceilings in my condo garage...

r1 Did you do it? I would totally chicken out. I'm not even in a high rise situation, but I share a wall on the second floor of a fourplex. Every time my neighbor's washing machine kicks onto the spin cycle and does that vibrating thing, my hair (all 4 strands that's left, anyway) stands on end.

Just like how 9/11 made me nervous about low flying planes, this tragedy in Miami is making me nervous about condo buildings.

[quote] I share a wall on the second floor of a fourplex.

Seriously? You could just skip out the window.

They didn't let people get their pets out before they demolished the rest of the building! BASTARDS!!!!

Look, R5, I loved my dogs but they are not more valuable than humans. Neither are parakeets, goldfish or whatever pets you have.

The building was unsafe and no human should have been entering those apartments. Period.

R4 With how jumpy I am, it's only a matter of time before I do.

Bitch sure washes her clothes a lot...

I live in a high-rise condo taller than that one with a similar deck and pool over parking garage situation. The building was built in 1990. Better than the 70's but we had similar water issues I never realized how serious until now. Unlike Champlain towers, our HOA did what they were supposed to do and get the problem fixed as they arose. The main promenade deck where the pool is was built 3 times! Over 1 million each time because of poor quality contractors.

The last and final time it was done, one of the residents who was a retired architect insisted they flooded the deck with water about 6 inches deep and let it sit there for over a month to see if there was any water leak. Columns exposed, it was like a weird reflecting pond. But you know what, it worked and dry ever since. We also had an extensive earth quake study done by a structural engendering firm just about 6 months ago. Everything good and within code.

Not bragging, shit could still happen but my point here is that I think the HOA and the people who live in the building are partially to blame if no one cares to keep the building maintained property at Champlain Towers. Oh sure, some people here bitched about the fees, but not that bad compared to waiting 40 years and hit with a 14 million repair bill. This tragedy is the result of too many people all to willing to pass the buck onto someone else. Let the next homeowners deal with it or until the city forces us to do so.

Thanks for starting the part 5 thread and keeping it respectful.

[quote] Now I want to go look up under the drop ceilings in my condo garage...

Oh, please don’t. Please.

[quote] a structural engendering firm

Literal VIOLENCE!

You are so welcome, r9. Thanks to all of the various OPs of these threads who have been staying the course. Sometimes it's fun to play around with making silly thread titles. Seems most of us are on the same page that this is not one of those times.

Little reminder for anyone who hears about memorial services happening to please post any info here, especially for our Cassie. I wonder if hers was already done? More likely, her folks/relatives are waiting until a bit more time has gone by.

[quote]...I think the HOA and the people who live in the building are partially to blame if no one cares to keep the building maintained property at Champlain Towers.

Really? "partially" can be anything from 1% to 99% and "properly" could mean anything as it is entirely subjective. Don't let's get started on "if no one cares," as that almost certainly was not the problem. We know a lot of people cared and pushed hard to make the members of the condo association respond appropriately.

The problem with this sloppy thinking is that it clouds the problem with is lax regulation at multiple points in the life of the building. The concrete used in the Champlain building has been called too soft. So maybe the concrete is the problem, not the HOA or the owners. But maybe it was entirely up to code, but the code was inadequate, so the fault lies with local officials too cozy with the real estate industry and not with the HOA or the owners or the concrete contractors. There are so many parties that MUST be identified in the long chain of players involved in the eventual collapse of this building.

Don't be so quick to blame the people who lived and died in that mess, even in the backhanded way you employed.

[quote] More likely, her folks/relatives are waiting until a bit more time has gone by.

Or a bit more bits have been found.

Members of the Paraguayan first lady's family have finally been found. Two of the children and the nanny have yet to be discovered.

Oh good! Where had they gone?

One of the cats has been found!

Good are you cat ladies satisfied now?

They didn’t do the ole switcheroo at the pet shop, did they?

Holy crap, Binx!! Yes, that is very pleasantly surprising (and sort of amazing) R18, considering that he was *not* one of the two cats that was thought to be alive. (his family's apartment was sheared in half). I'm happy for Deven Gonzalez, who has lost so much including her father.

Aww, Binx seems so sweet (see below). I have to say...for an indoor cat that has been on his own for two weeks, he looks none the worse for wear. Of course, he might have been a big ol' fatty pre-collapse and needed a two-week fast.

Binx is a black cat, too! They're the best! Glad s/he made out ok.

Is Gavriel on Onlyfans yet?

Binx looks like my kitty. I'm so happy for Deven. Binx is going to aid in her recovery.

I'm so happy for Binx and his owner! He looks just like my cat, Felix.

Here is an article on Michael and Cassie Stratton (see link). He is a big time Democratic strategist. He is 66 and she was 40. So sad. They look really happy and she did a beautiful job decorating that apartment. Our Cassie, so so sad.

The last time I cried 'praise the Lord!' and wept like this was in 1985, when Val Ewing got her twins back on Knots Landing. I was six at the time.

I have a black cat, too.

I feel as trapped and isolate as Søren Kierkegaard in his final days….

Søren the bag boy at the store?

Cassie's husband has kind eyes.

Our Cassie reminds me of Gene Tierney's Laura. It's a compliment and I have a feeling she'd have taken it as such.

^ He looks like a good guy. Bet he is devastated.

Binx the cat is alive! She's alive!

Is it racist to admit that out of all of them, if I could save only one, it would have unquestionably been the little black panther?

Let’s see how heartwarming it is when they discover that the fucking cat survived by eating human remains buried among the rubble.

What's with the "our" Cassie thing?

I know r35, WTF? Just as weird as you cat ladies.

[quote] you cat ladies

What? I haven't posted here about cats, R36.

Have any gay porn stars living in Miami expressed concerns about their homes crumbling around them?

Fuck you r35, and your cunt friends/sock puppets.

If you don't get it, fine . No one wants you here.

I had read somewhere else that Cassie was closer to fifty, but I suppose that doesn't really matter at this point.

From what they've ascertained from what's left of some support columns, and examining chunks of the pool deck slab, the structure wasn't built to specs. There were only two pieces of steel in one of the columns, rather than four specified in the plans. There was rebar missing in areas of the pool deck slab as well. The upper floors also lacked steel connecting those slabs. This was noted yesterday, and today about the columns and pool deck. The other buildings built by this architect, and especially the twin condos need close inspection pronto.

Just heard on the 11pm news they've found more bodies and the current status is 79 dead, 61 missing.

[quote] a structural engendering firm

Brendad, is that you?

Fire department audio in the link. They performed really well.

Wait what? How did that cat survive that long without food, or did he dine on the plethora of available body parts? Cats are just mini Lyons at the end of the day.

[quote]How did that cat survive that long without food....

I've not read a report that the cat was REMOVED from the rubble. The cat was seen there and recognized.

It seems clear that the cat was frightened and bolted and has been hiding out.

The cat's been staying at the Fontainebleau as the guest of Mr. and Mrs. Jerry Falwell, Jr. Don't know why he went back to the wreck site.

(Far more likely that the cat was eating food put out by volunteers and rescue workers. There are a lot of dogs--and dog handlers with dog food--working the site.)

Let's be clear. Cats are murder machines. The cat has been dining on any small living animal it can grab and rip to pieces.

House cats are not native to North America. They are a classic example of an invasive species. None of the wild life here has evolved any defenses whatsoever to cats that irresponsible cat owners have let out of their homes.

Cats cause irreparable damage to our environment. We already know what to do with invasive species of predatory animals.

This whole tragedy gives new meaning to the term “drop ceiling”.

On the plus side, R48, the cat has probably spent the last few weeks reducing the local population of feral parakeets, also an invasive species.

The poor woman/female who was trapped alive in the basement of the building in the hours after the collapse could only be one of two people. Fire Dept audio from incident stated the woman screaming from the rubble, trapped between two beds, said she lived in Unit 204 with her parents. Valeria Barth, age 14 from Colombia, lived in 204 with her parents Luis and Catalina.

The other option is that rescue personnel got the apartment number wrong, or heard it incorrectly. The women could have been Theresa Velasquez, adult daughter of retired couple Julio and Angela Velasquez, who lived in Unit 304.

When can we build?

But if Valeria was 14, would she describe her parents as “elderly”?

I mean, it’s possible, but I would say unlikely that people with a 14-year-old daughter would be elderly, or that the daughter would refer to them that way.

Does anyone find the phrases "X number of residents unaccounted for" or "missing" inadequate here? Whatever happened to "presumed dead"? That is what they are.

Binx was in an apartment that partially collapsed. From what I've pieced together:

* A 16 year old girl lived there with her mom, dad, 2 cats (Binx & Hippo), dog (Daisy), and 2 lizards.

* The father was presumably with Daisy in the living room, which collapsed first. Both are presumed dead.

* The mother was in her bedroom with Hippo. The mother survived the fall. Hippo's fate is unknown... originally presumed dead, but now being searched for.

* The girl was in her bedroom with Binx. The girl survived the fall, and it's likely Binx fell along with her & survived too, then ran away in terror.

* The fate of the lizards is unknown. If they survived the fall, they probably lived... but will never be recognized, even if found, because they weren't microchipped & are visually-indistinguishable from other Florida lizards.

In any case, Binx & Hippo weren't trapped in the building by the Mayor's evil refusal to allow rescuers to enter... they went down along with it during the initial collapse, along with the people who lived there.

R35 I don’t understand the love for gold digger Cassie, either.

Incidentally, the Mayor's assertion that "they searched using IR cameras" is misleading. They sent drones to look in through the windows. IR cameras wouldn't have WORKED through the windows, because they all had IR-blocking film applied by the association a few years ago.

The fact is, nobody ever entered Mia's unit at any point. Her owner & the owner's daughter(?) took their dog onto the balcony (door closed), and were rescued via ladder. No firefighter entered the unit, nor did anyone search the higher floor (apparently, the stairs were partially torn away up there). The Mayor refuses to directly address this specific unit, and fire rescue was prohibited from talking about it, because it directly contradicts the official non-specific general narrative the mayor keeps repeating. Literally no meaningful effort was EVER made to rescue Mia, even though her location and (initial, at least) survival was known beyond doubt. She had no means of escape from the unit, and was alive & well when the owner left. Her death was UNQUESTIONABLY Mayor Daniella Levine Cava's fault, because she wouldn't ALLOW anyone to go up via the same ladder her owner came down to try and rescue her. If she didn't die from the demolition, then she died from starvation, hepatic lipidosis, dehydration, kidney failure, or some combination.

r56 You are a fucking monster. If I was a lesser person I would wish many bad things to happen to you. Instead, I hope you find much love and care in this world.

r57 I hope the Mayor hears your tiny, tiny cat violin playing.

The demolition of the remaining building has greatly expedited the recovery of HUMAN bodies, giving closure to families. Can you imagine waiting weeks to have your loved one's remains removed from that pile? That is agonizing to even think about, much less actually live through. You cat ladies need to get a grip.

R17 DL rejoice, I found my pussy. It’s as good as new.

[quote] Full stop.

*eyeroll*

[quote] This whole tragedy gives new meaning to the term “drop ceiling”.

That’s a good one, that’s funny

[quote] When can we build? —Kushner-Trumps

Next Tuesday - will that work?

Cassie was a beautiful lady with good taste. I feel terrible for her husband having received that final call hearing the fear in his wife’s voice then total silence. It will forever haunt him.

At least get your facts -- or should I say, cats -- straight before you start stomping your feet, R57. Mia's owner didn't have a dog, doesn't have a daughter and she wasn't rescued off her balcony.

The cat people on here are really damaged.

Does anyone really think that ANY public official would allow a human to walk into HALF a building that is swaying in the wind by a full foot (12 inches) and is being partially supported by unstable rubble? If that building falls, which it might have, that human death would be blamed on whoever allowed it--and the WORLD would be saying, "How could you let someone risk their life?" It doesn't matter if the lunatic who offered to go in signed some bullshit waiver: the risk was too high.

You cat people seem oddly secure in your belief that the half-building was stable: obviously, your professional conclusion was based on your vast knowledge of structural engineering and your in-depth examination of the building and rubble that you accomplished by staring at your television for too long.

Did the cat person who claimed he was going to start a human chain around the building OR protest in front of the building with a sign OR volunteer to go in himself ever do any of those things?

Let it go. Please. Let's move forward from the cat discussion on both sides.

Cassie has become a favorite, rightfully so, because she was classy, fabulous and had great style. Just look at how she designed her condo apartment.

Agree r69 Until someone shows us proof otherwise, she was a lovely dame. And yes, she is indeed "our" Cassie. Like it or lump it, you feeble types who for whatever reason find it uncomfortable.

Her condo really was lovely. Not sure if I love all the MM pics but she did a great job. Very sad for her and everyone else who perished.

Since R69 and R71 mention it, could someone please post a link to the pictures of Cassie's apartment?

People are bonding with her because she was the only one they can learn more about through her social media outlets.

I think people are "bonding" with Cassie because it's easy to picture yourself in her position.

She had a good husband, nice condo on the beach and was living a good life.

One night, she wakes up to her building shaking, grabs the phone and calls her husband who is out of town. She runs outside to see what's going on and gives a witness account of the "pool collapsing". She screams (according to her sister, the husband doesn't say) and the line goes dead.

Cassie is the voice of every person in that building. Living their best life, minding their own business. Happy. Content. Then her world literally crashes down on top of her.

You'd have to be stone cold not to feel sympathy for her, her devastated husband and all of the other people who died that night. She is just the face we see and the last voice we heard.

r65, ok, touche... Mia's owner (Susana Alvarez) escaped via the fire escape. If anything, that makes the Mayor's refusal to allow rescuers to enter to look for her even MORE inexcusable. A rescuer could have gone up exactly the same way her owner came down.

As far as the building "not being safe", NOTHING on that site was "safe", LEAST of all the unstable pile of rubble the rescue/recovery crew was climbing, and almost ANY slip and fall would have been likely to impale you on something.

Nobody disagrees that it was "dangerous". The disagreement lies with the Mayor's decision that zero risk whatsoever to any human was acceptable if the intended goal was the rescue of a cat. Nobody was calling for her to send MDFR crews or anyone else inside. All we asked was that they step aside and ALLOW a cat rescuer to enter, of her own free will and volition, after signing any necessary liability waivers. THAT is the fundamental reason why cat people now hate Mayor Daniella Levine Cava with a passion. There WERE people willing to risk their lives to save the lives of Mia and Coco, and she refused to ALLOW it, then approved the building's expedited demolition with the cats (at least one of whom was independently confirmed to still be alive hours before the demolition took place) still inside.

Demolishing the building with the cats inside was cruel and evil, but the fact that the cats were still trapped inside with no hope of escape for more than a week UNDER HER DIRECT ORDERS was far more fundamentally wrong.

She could have allowed a rescuer to enter with traps sometime around day 4, probably rescued Mia on the same day, rescued Coco a day later, and everyone would have been happy. The cat people would have been satisfied (nobody seriously expected any cats from the collapsed apartments to be alive), the rescues of Coco and Mia would have been a bright spot during an otherwise grim and mostly futile rescue operation, and she could have been a hero instead of a villain.

If the cat rescuer had gotten killed, the voices calling the Mayor irresponsible would have been drowned out by the cat people venerating the deceased rescuer as a saint and martyr, and would have defended the Mayor too for allowing the rescue attempt in the first place (especially if she managed to pass off the blame for any earlier delay onto DeSantis). And honestly, had a rescuer died, not even the cat people would have blamed her for not allowing anyone else to enter.

Some lovely shots of Cassie happy among her Marilyn prints. She talks about how she designed her place.

86 bodies recovered, 62 identified, 43 people still unaccounted for

[quote] Cassie has become a favorite, rightfully so, because she was classy, fabulous and had great style.

I am terribly sad for Cassie. She seemed full of life and it is a sad, sad ending to a life too young to die.

But I find nothing class about her. She was a Kardashian type attention seeker. And that's fine if she enjoyed it. It didn't hurt anyone that we know of and provided entertainment for some people. I also enjoyed looking at all her pictures ann IG account. I don't want to disparage of her but some people have gone overboard in their praise of a rather unimaginative looking, magazine like decorated apartment which borders on the tacky, typical haus frau blogger design and about her rather exhibitionist photos of herself.

I am sorry for those who loved her. I hope her death was quick and as painless and possible. Her husband's respectfully delayed and restrained but loving statement was classy however.

I'll go duck now to avoid incoming missiles.

behind-the-scenes look at Surfside building emergency operation

R7 R75 It turns out there were never any actual sightings of either Coco (as we were led to believe I guess through the fog of the tragedy) or Mia. For Coco we "heard" that rescuers left out food and water on her balcony but, we now don't know that for certain. Again, there were no actual sightings, and some of this could have been made up. I don't mean that in a cruel way, I just mean that people want to believe what they want to believe. Mia...I don't know how that got started at all. From what I heard there was only talk that a cat named Mia lived in the area of the building, but, again, zero sightings, and I don't think they put down food or water for her at all. (If they even did for Coco). I'm not trying to bring the room down, but just trying to keep what few facts we have straight.

It is really fucking hard to think that yes, perhaps some of the pets were still alive pre-demo. That said, there is no proof. Let's just be happy for Binx who did manage to get out. We still don't have the full story how, but it is one lovely thing to come out of this horror.

Sorry, I meant to address that to r75 not R7

And what about the stray cats that might have been in the area at the time of the collapse and might have been caught under the rubble that might have fallen in the area where they were?

How dare these inept 'rescuers' fail to plan for that?

Mia might be alive. She might have found her way down slowly. Cats are agile and resourceful.

The Cassie obsession is as creepy as the cat obsession, tbh.

Here is a tour of Unit 611 in July of 2020. The camera man (or woman) went down into the parking garage as well, around the 3:45 minute mark.

This was a nice building, IMO! However, down in the garage, you could see stalactite-type stuff in the "ceilings." I'm not sure what I would have thought if I were a prospective renter. I don't have a fancy car, but I think if you cared about your car, you would have thought twice.

Go find another place to play then. r84

Frankly speaking, there is nothing about this disaster that isn't creepy "tbh"

*eyeroll*

Mr. Stratton's statement was heartfelt and touching without being mawkish. I didn't know she had a daughter from a previous relationship. Other articles said she was 44, so likely an adult daughter.

[quote] Go find another place to play then. [R84]. Frankly speaking, there is nothing about this disaster that isn't creepy "tbh"

Sorry to get your caftan in a bunch, r86. I’ve been reading these threads to learn more about the collapse, but the fawning over this random girl - one individual of 100+ who died tragically - is not normal. The cat people are just trolls for the most part, but the Cassie fawners seem kind of psycho.

Go find another thread to police r88 or just skip past the posts you don't like.

[quote] the voices calling the Mayor irresponsible would have been drowned out by the cat people venerating the deceased rescuer as a saint and martyr,

There are no "voices of the cat people" outside of the internet.

Anyway, did you form a human chain or protest or volunteer to go in yourself, as you said you would?

I found her website touching: she's trying so hard to look like a celebrity, but she was really just a gal who hired a photographer to follow her around for the day who thought she was being glamorous with her Marilyn Monroe photos and her beige/baby blue apartment with mirrors leaning on all the walls.

Hey bitches, I’m sucking old sugar daddy cocks in Hell to get a pied a terre on the river Hades!

Cassie was delicious.

We wring our hand and sigh

When pretty people die

They’d always pass us by

They never would say hi

But still we’re supposed to cry

When pretty people die.

But Cassie @ r94, your overfilled lips didn't make you pretty....

[quote] We wring our hand and sigh

Just the one, dear?

Gratuitous post of survivor hottie Gabe being a musclehead on Instagram to break up the monotony of cat lady and Cassie lunacy:

Yo! We didn't even talk about Cassie's cats, Cyrus & Oliver.....

For all the moaning by cat-haters, Binx was the LEAD NEWS STORY in at least a half-dozen major countries last night including Canada, Australia, Britain, Japan, Germany, and Russia (France was more interested in Haiti).

NO --there was no "touche" in there, R75 You just got YOUR FACTS WRONG, and are on his crusade to cast Mayor Levine Cava as Cruella DeVille.

You keep saying that she was lying about trying to look for the pets left behind. Please show some evidence. Otherwise you just sound like an unhinged "cat lady". I can find anecdotal evidence that first responders WERE keeping an eye out those cats.

Thank you to the cat lady, Cassie and Gabe lunatics for cracking me up while reading these otherwise very tragic threads. I appreciate y'all for lightening the mood with your crazy.

Cruella... er, I mean Daniella... didn't "lie" so much as deceive via carefully-worded omissions. Even the Miami Herald smells blood & has latched onto the story now.

Eventually, once people start testifying under oath, the truth will come out, and she's going to end up looking like an inhuman felicidal monster.

Oh FFS!! No she wont, R102. You're the only person who look like a loon.

Again, R102....you're not providing any EVIDENCE of your claims. Just Levine-Cava = Bad. Just because you keep SAYING that doesn't doesn't make it true. Reminds me of someone else.....

Was Cassie a Tranny? She gives off that vibe with all those poses and obsession with herself as a "woman".

She was just a gal with stardust in her eyes.

Nothing whatsoever that r48 wrote has anything to do with the Champlain cats who were sealed into condos with no access to wildlife at all. WTF?! Apples, oranges FFS! And I say this as someone who recognized the need to bring down the remaining structure and as a 25 year cat parent of three, including an elderly sweetheart I adopted who cost me an arm and leg in vet bills. I recognize human life (well, most of our species) as more vital, precious, and important than animals.

Get a grip.

I have seen many accounts mention a security guard.

Did the security guard make it out of the building?

"Just like how 9/11 made me nervous about low flying planes, this tragedy in Miami is making me nervous about condo buildings. "

Really any multi-unit tall building. Apartment buildings could suffer the same fate.

I disagree R109. The Champlain South tower fell into disrepair because individual condo owners could not agree on fixing structural issues and there was little or no state oversight.

An apartment building with rental units would not meet this same fate if the property owner/ management is complying with state regulations and fixing issues as they arise.

Multi-unit rentals owned by a single management company are not beholden to the whims of a hundred different condo owners - many of whom could not afford the $100,000.00 assessment to fix the building's many problems.

I'm not saying a tall, multi- unit rental could never collapse. But the dysfunction of this particular condo arrangement contributed to the building's fate.

Historic Miami-Dade Courthouse shut down after safety inspection

I'd argue that the big problem in Miami isn't so much the TALL condos, it's the 3-5 story ones that are flying under the radar, but because of their smaller size have largely escaped scrutiny up to now.

It's not JUST age or corrosion. I personally think the 70lb/sf dynamic load norm for residential construction is EGREGIOUSLY inadequate. Fuck, anyone heavier than an anorexic woman or child is technically pounding a thin floor plate like that out of spec with every single step they take... and that doesn't even consider things like 1980s-era particleboard wall-unit entertainment centers with 35" CRT TVs that needed 4 people or a hand-forklift to move safely, or heavy dining room tables, or even a bed with 4 legs and two people having sex.

It literally blows my mind that anyone has EVER regarded 70lb/sf as adequate for residential construction.

Incidentally, I don't know about other parts of the country, but in South Florida, thin concrete floor slabs are the norm for multi-family buildings, even those that are only 2-4 stories.

Well fucking said r112. Much food for thought there. Was it you or another poster who also mentioned weights/weight benches. on the other threads?

My shitty condo allows fucking WATERBEDS. Who even still has those? Apparently the people below me do. Better below than above I guess. This building was built in 1979 and has seen some shit (earthquakes, waterbed owners, ancient TVs, ancient fat tenants, etc.) and fingers crossed we are still standing. We are "only" two floors, but that's one floor too many.

Hoarders can add to the weight problem, as well.

What? Water beds are really a problem? Who knew? Do people still use them?

In light of all the Cassie posts, I wanted to share another lovely young lady, Live Nation exec Theresa who was visiting her parents in Miami. Something about her just connects with me. Maybe because I am about the same age with similar interests as her. She seemed like an awesome, beautiful, fun woman and I cant imagine how her partner must be feeling now.

[Quote] My shitty condo allows fucking WATERBEDS.

They're probably just thinking ahead..

[Quote]Water beds are really a problem?

A gallon of water weighs 8 1/3 lbs. From Wiki.

[Quote]Waterbed mattresses, depending on the size, hold about 80 to 235 gallons of water, which could bring the weight of the entire bed to over 2,000 pounds.

r118 Gahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fucking hell, they don't even let us have small potted plants on our balcony because of "safety issues", but that's the weight of an average waterbed?

The woman who has one on the lower floor is 70. Could be there have been other "waterbeders" in this building? Waterbeds and weight benches? Maybe an always filled and running Jacuzzi tub? (The nicer units had at least one of those)

Sleep? So silly. So, so silly of me.

Waterbeds sound like fun but in reality they were awful. The water sloshed around inside and made going to sleep hard to do. Trying to fuck on them was impossible. If you built up any kind of rhythm, the water amplified the motion tenfold and eventually got out of rhythm with you and your partner which killed everything unless you moved to the floor.

I didn’t know that water beds were still in production, it’s such an 80’s thing.

My first time was on a water bed and I found all of the waves very distracting.

Waterbeds were actually more of a 70s thing, r121. By the 80s the novelty had worn off and the drawbacks had become pretty well known.

Update: I was wrong about 70lb/sf being the norm for thin-plate residential construction. It's actually worse: 40-50lb/sf. For wood-framed single-family homes, it's often just 30lb/sf.

In theory, it's an average spread across the whole span... but think about where people typically PUT things like weight benches: right smack in the middle of the room. Also, I'd argue that a 30-40lb nominal limit for wood isn't much worse than 50lb/sf for concrete+steel, because to a certain extent, wood is "kind of" elastic & self-healing, as long as it doesn't break. In contrast, once concrete cracks, it's cracked. And steel is ductile... it can stretch & bend a little, but doesn't really "spring back" once it's bent too far.

It would just be one of many things, but I'd bet serious money that at least one resident had a weight bench and 300-400lb of weights in a bedroom, the living room, or the dining room... especially due to Covid closing gyms. Now, consider how many other frustrated gym rats lived in highrise condos & got weight benches, smith machines, etc. the week after gyms were ordered closed... not only in Miami, but in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Seattle, and elsewhere.

Yeah, their heyday was probably the 70s, but they were still pretty popular into the 80s. Remember the massive wood frames and the sometimes ornate and massive headboard/cabinetry?

After my freshman year in college, so the summer of 1992, I sublet an apartment for the summer and my room had a waterbed. It was a massive pain.

r123 I think floor failures would be more common if that load capacity was an issue. People's home floors would be caving in all the time because of heavy furniture, but not cause a huge failure of the entire building's main supports like Champlain appears to be. This is what would cause a floor failure, a huge party when the load goes way beyond what it's designed for. This has been seen way more often. The single floor fails but the whole building doesn't collapse.

I live in a condo and we aren't allowed to have any heavy gym equipment or water beds. Can't even have a treadmill.

[quote] The Cassie obsession is as creepy as the cat obsession, tbh.

Maybe Cassie was a cat in a previous life. Florida is a strange place.

That condo wasn't permitting pets, either, yet somehow Binx, Mia, Cocoa, Daisy and numerous other animals seemed to live there.

Yes, she did, R108. Her name is Shamoka Furman. She helped several residents escape the building, sustaining minor injuries. One of the survivors has created a GoFundMe campaign for her. Her car was destroyed, she can't work, and it sounds like the security company for which she worked is shit.

r129 the security guard looks like she's part of the🌈 community too. She probably works for G4S and they pay shit wages with zero to no benefits. She could have been killed going back into a crumbling building a second time to help people get out.

Thank you for letting us know about her r129.

OK, we can't help the befurred ones now, but hopefully we can help Shamoka. Thank you so much for posting that r129

Shamoka had high hopes for 2021. And then this shit.

[quote]She was just a gal with stardust in her eyes.

More like concrete dust.

[quote]In an emergency, drink your waterbed

Who wrote this stupid article. Obviously someone who knows nothing about what they are talking about. Water beds are not filled with plan water, you cant just purify it. Most water beds from the70's and beyond all have "conditioner" added to the bed when you fill it. Basically a bottle of toxic anti fungal stuff to kill any mold or other nasty shit from growing inside of it. NOT for human consumption.

[quote]Waterbeds sound like fun but in reality they were awful. The water sloshed around inside and made going to sleep hard to do. Trying to fuck on them was impossible

Hey Grandpa, they changed a lot from the 70's. You never heard of wave-less water beds? They came out in the 80's and were quite stable and very comfortable and fun to fuck on. They have a type of filling inside of the actual water bag itself. Better than memory foam.

There is a GoFundMe for Cassie's family set up if anyone is interested.

Do you have a link r137?

I just came back to say ignore my post at R137, R138. I looked into it and it's a fraud. I'm glad I didn't link it here.

R[quote] The family wants to warn people they do not have a GoFundMe page set up to raise money, but unfortunately, Miami-Dade Police are investigating several fraudulent fundraisers set up in Cassie’s name.

Who in their right mind would donate to a dead Kardashian wannabe? Seriously.

R414 Fuck off with your tired Kardshian bullshit.

Thanks r140. I'm sadly sure there will be more fake GoFundMes than legitimate ones. Cassie related or not.

This would be a good time for the local animal shelters to put up something. I'm not usually for that sort of thing, as they tend to be kill shelters so too often, and get snuffed eventually, but sounds like a lot of animals did get 'caked, and no longer have any human caretakers, or those of a right mind to even deal with it.

Forgive me, my fuck you to the Kardashian bullshit was directed to r141

Enough with the trashy waterbeds. This discussion is triggering every inch of my condescending snotty antennae. I don't like feeling this mean in this thread.

Discussing waterbeds also outs you as an old fart. Most people under 30 don't even know they existed.

I hope they find Cassies remains soon so that her family can have some closure.

Have they found the missing condo board members?

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote] One night, she wakes up to her building shaking, grabs the phone and calls her husband who is out of town.

Hmmmm. Has anyone checked if the husband had insurance on her? Quite convenient for him to be out of town.

[quote] Can't even have a treadmill.

Like you’d have one even if you could.

Pfft.

R146, they have recovered Cassie:

I have to admit, I got a little teary yesterday when I read that they had recovered Edgar Gonzalez (his name was released yesterday morning). In one of the universe's bizarre little coincidences, he was recovered the same day (July 8) that Binx was found/captured.

[quote]they have recovered Cassie

On my way! Cash only this time for my homegoing services, being Miami and all. Aint got time for no bad checks and paper trails to drug lords hunny. Tell Governor Ron to come and leave the wife at home with the kids

R151 Thanks for the update.

Am I missing something? Every time they release an updated number of bodies found, they reduce the number of missing by more than the number found. The total started at around 160 missing, but the total at R148 is 116 (94 found, 22 missing). Have the others been accounted for?

The engineer-guy from R173 in Part 4 has made a video analyzing the garage footage (with all the stalactites) recorded by the woman in R85.

I noticed that too R155. Maybe they overestimated the original missing count?

(Edit/Correction: It wasn't R173 in Part 4. I don't know why that # got stuck in my head. )

I saw one article mention that 11 people had now been accounted for and were no longer missing.

People like Blanche Devereaux pop up and go, "Hey y'all! I'm not really dead!"

And then they have to change the number.

R147: Yes, there was one current board member in the collapsed portion, Nancy Levin, who was recovered last week.

A former board member, Myriam Notkin, has yet to be found -- or announced, anyway. (her husband Arnie was recovered). She resigned in 2019 over all the dysfunction, fighting & inability to get anything done According to a neighbor, the other board members made her life hell.

But still, from 160 down to 116? How could it take all this time for 44 people, after they were listed as missing, to report in that they’re actually ok?

..........

[quote]How could it take all this time for 44 people, after they were listed as missing, to report in that they’re actually ok?

They were busy searching for the cats.

r165, if only :-(

Did they check all the cabins?

I'm sure they're all there.

Was the water brackish?

[quote]Enough with the trashy waterbeds.

OK, lets talk Grand Pianos, they can weigh up to 1,500 lbs. I have met people who cant even play and have them in a high-rise condo as a basic prop to look "classy".

[quote] Really? "partially" can be anything from 1% to 99% and "properly" could mean anything as it is entirely subjective. Don't let's get started on "if no one cares," as that almost certainly was not the problem. We know a lot of people cared and pushed hard to make the members of the condo association respond appropriately. The problem with this sloppy thinking is that it clouds the problem with is lax regulation.

Get off your high horse R13. If anyone is sloppy, it's your assumption that the lax attitude or apathy of the homeowners didn't play a roll. I am not the only one to think the residents are partially to blame. If they all cared enough or at least 50% cared enough those repairs would have been done decades not years before the last inspection. This structural engineer is basically saying the same thing:

I was just going to post that R170

Here's another video where he discusses the damages seen in video of the garage that was taken about a year before the collapse

You can skip the first 9.5 minutes (if you want) to get to where he discusses the damages. Some of those stalactites weren't stalactites. They were actually repairs

R170, part 2 of that video talks about the condo taking out a $15 million loan for the repairs (or at least getting pre-approved). They also had permits for repairs (only roofing & electrical), and had submitted the plans to the city (plans included structural repairs). He discusses the structural issues and how the work may not have even been bid out (they didn't plan on doing those repairs until 2022). That raises a bunch of other legal issues. If it wasn't bid out, Did someone (construction/engineer professional) tell them they could delay it? Did they take it upon themselves to delay it? He talks about a lot more

It also talks about how condo's usually will take out loans for big repairs

[quote] apathy of the homeowners didn't play a roll.

If it was a buttered roll, maybe they would’ve come around.

How quickly we forget...

r175

They have to sell it. The insurance limits are too low to compensate everyone who lost an apartment or a loved one.

But who will buy a unit in that building?

R178 Perhaps Kushner, who lives near there, will buy the site for future development of empty condos owned by foreign money launderers. But he won’t be paying the asking price. It’s a distressed parcel of land now, so he will likely try to get it for pennies on the dollar. That’s what Kushner/Trump do: they profit off the misery of others.

R177 There were approximately 100 units with an average value of around $1 million. But the liability claims come first, and that’s likely the only insurance payout they’re going to get, because the coverage of the physical building doesn’t cover poor construction or deferred maintenance. The liability payments for the 100 or so deaths will probably consume the money, and owners who don’t have enough cash to keep paying their mortgages will have to file for personal bankruptcy to try to get out of paying. Then they have to find a new place to live while in bankruptcy. It’s a very sad story.

Well, supposedly there is already an offer for $110,000,000 for the lot itself. I guess we'll see how that pans out.

r178, they won't be buying a unit in THAT building, because it's GONE. They'd be buying a unit in a brand NEW building on the site.

The judge is in an unenviable situation. On one hand, you have people calling for a memorial on the site. On the other hand, the only way the families of the victims (and the owners who are still alive) will ever come close to being made financially whole is if the property's value is maximized and unencumbered.

Where things are going to get really ugly is if the City of Surfside gets pressured to buy the property at market value ($100-150 million, give or take) and turn it into a memorial. Surfside is rich, but it's a small town, and it's not *that* rich.

My personal prediction:

1. Someone will buy the land for $100-150 million.

2. People will call for Surfside to buy it for a memorial. Surfside will admit point blank that it's not financially viable.

3. The developer will offer to build a public park at ground level (above the new underground garage) in exchange for being allowed to go to 13 or 14 stories while maintaining the original FAR (ie, taller, but more slender). Surfside will balk.

4. The developer will submit plans for the biggest 12-story tower they can build as a matter of right (and no memorial park), then grab a bowl of popcorn and watch the brawl at City Hall.

5. A few days later, the developer will offer an alternate plan that adds ANOTHER story, but reduces its visual bulk so that the portion above 11 stories has only three residences... two penthouses, each occupying half of the 12th and 13th floors (avoiding anyone having a front door and address on the 13th floor), and a single penthouse (with smaller footprint) on the 14th floor (and private roof deck).

6. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, Surfside will amend its zoning law to allow buildings taller than 12 stories on a case-by-case basis, then approve it. Part of the rationale will be to encourage buildings like Champlain North that are "probably" OK, and too expensive to abandon, to sell out anyway by making the land they're sitting on sufficiently valuable to encourage them to take the win while they're still ahead and alive.

7. Eventually, laws like that will become the norm across Dade County. Municipalities will grudgingly allow old buildings to be replaced by new ones that are slightly taller than would be allowed today to encourage old buildings that aren't bad enough to FORCE the demolition of to go away "anyway". In Miami, height is basically the one carrot the County (and municipalities) can offer developers (at no cost to the County or municipality itself) to encourage demolition and redevelopment.

R181 Where did you read there was an offer? The judge declared it might go for as much as that, but I can’t find anything about an offer for that amount. If there is, it surely can’t be Trump/Kushner because I’m sure they never pay asking price, much less more than asking price. Also, it’s important to know who pays for the rest of the site cleanup, the seller or the buyer.

R182 The only thing I’d add is the new buildings will be built badly and all collapse 40 years later.

r184, I don't think so. Skyscraper construction genuinely HAS come a very long way since the early 1980s, both in terms of protecting things like rebar, designing buildings to facilitate future repairs in place, and incorporating sensors into the building itself to allow near-realtime monitoring of its condition.

^ In 40 years it’ll all be underwater anyway.

They need a panel of judges and accountants and the like to sort this out. If there is a pool of approx $1 mil per unit then there may be enough to compensate for real losses.

There aren't many injured survivors but the injured need priority payouts. The next should be people financially dependent on those who died - not adult children unless they were disabled in some way. Then they can divvy up the remaining money equally or according to the unit's worth plus loss of life.

It's not perfect but maybe it will be fair.

Also remember the President made this a federally declared disaster area. The residents receive long term FEMA assistance, as if this was a natural disaster or calamity. The assistance looks very comprehensive to hold everyone over while the litigation goes on, so people wont bleed financially. Housing and other methods assistance will last until around the end of December 2022. Hopefully by then everything can be settled.

trump can't afford to buy lunch

[quote] They need a panel of judges and accountants and the like to sort this out. If there is a pool of approx $1 mil per unit then there may be enough to compensate for real losses.

2 bedroom/2 bath unit ran $750,000 and up

I've been reading the discussion on this engineering forum for the last few weeks. I haven't caught up with today's posts, but it's really interesting.

R189 He never could. His “talent” is getting loans even though he’s a terrible risk.

R185 Sorry, my comment was meant to be satire/irony, but I forgot to add /s. You’d think I’d remember to do that after so many decades of folks not always getting my warped sense of humor online!

R185 yes and no

They built a brand new apt complex in Seattle and the work was faulty and never caught by inspectors. They had to take the entire thing down

From Wikipedia

It opened April 2001 at a cost of $32 million. It was a 272-unit tower. By 2004, issues with the building's exterior and water-proofing were discovered. In 2008, the building's owners discovered corrosion of cables and load-bearing cable ends in the post-tensioned concrete floors of the building, due to inadequate painting and the use of an improper type of grout that failed to keep water out. Repairs were estimated at $23 million in 2008, but this climbed to over $80 million by early 2010, forcing the building's owners to announce plans in April to demolish the nine-year-old building. A floor-by-floor demolition of the McGuire Apartments building, as opposed to the implosion method used for Seattle's Kingdome in 2000. The demolition was completed in early 2012,[12] and claimed the life of a construction worker during work on the 22nd floor in September 2011

City-hired inspectors were initially found to be negligent in failing to report the problems during construction and later inspections

R7 (aka R2) reminds me why I want no shared walls of a plex, condo, or any other structure. Single home for me. Why do I want to know when someone’s washing clothes, having a fight, or walking to the fridge?!

R187 Don’t forget the possibility of punitive lawsuits, each seeking millions for the emotional suffering of survivors. Unless those lawsuits are somehow prohibited in this situation, it seems to me there will be attorneys willing to take such a case if any potential defendant(s) involved has deep enough pockets. Some plaintiffs could even be owners that fought against a special assessment to make repairs to the building.

Who would be the defendant in these punitive lawsuits, R196? The HOA? The HOA consists of all the homeowners who were harmed when their own building fell down so they would essentially be suing themselves. To pay out monetary damages, they would have to assess themselves. Maybe you're thinking of the HOA liability insurance policy and making claims against that? That is not usually a high limit policy. The high limit policy is the hazard/fire insurance policy which is unlikely to cover this situation since it appears to be due to neglected maintenance issues. In other words, the homeowners screwed themselves by not maintaining their own building. Some may try to blame it all on "the Board" but the Board members are just fellow homeowners who volunteered to serve. Everyone needs to participate and use their influence by letting the Board know what they want. For example, you can't just passively sit back knowing there is severe deferred maintenance and then blame it all on the Board. You have to apply pressure and convince the Board to do what you, the majority of the homeowners, want (i.e. maintain the fucking building). If they are negligent, you vote them out or follow the procedure outlined in the Bylaws to remove and replace them. It takes a group effort to accomplish this, but I know from personal experience it can be done with the right (exhausting) investment of time.

On a related note, if the land gets sold for $100M and the proceeds distributed to the homeowners, they would first need to use the funds to pay off their outstanding mortgage balances.

R197 Here’s an example in which an individual condo board trustee was sued for a railing replacement mishap and found guilty by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. This case involved a tiny fraction of what went on at Champlain Tower South. Don’t think that individual deep-pocketed trustees can’t be sued personally if the Directors &Officers policy is insufficient or denies a claim.

“The two plaintiffs were tenants in residential units at the building who were injured when a railing on a third-floor porch of the building gave way and the two men fell more than twenty-five feet onto a neighbor’s porch. The two plaintiffs sued, among others, a trustee of the condominium trust, alleging that he was liable for the negligence of a carpenter that had been hired to remove and replace the porches on the building – including the porch from which the plaintiffs had fallen. The evidence presented at trial demonstrated that the carpenter had failed to construct the porch railings in accordance with the requirements of the State Building Code. The Supreme Judicial Court concluded that the trustee was liable to the plaintiffs for the carpenter’s negligence. In other words, the trustee was responsible to the injured plaintiffs because the carpenter failed to construct the subject porch railing in compliance with the Building Code. The SJC found that the trustee’s liability was determined by the obligations contained in the declaration of trust “to make repairs, additions and improvements to or alterations of the common elements,” and “to be responsible for the proper maintenance and repair of the common elements.”The O’Brien decision can be interpreted as creating a heightened duty for a condominium association to provide for the proper maintenance of the common areas of a condominium.”

In addition to the potential $100million and upwards available to victims weren't these condos and their contents insured as well. So the costs of the condos should come from insurers and the money from the sale of the land can go to victims for losses other than property.

Hazard policies don't cover buildings collapsing due to failure to maintain. If it fell during a severe hurricane that would be covered. The contents of the condos would be covered IF the individual homeowner had an HO6 condo policy in place.

The Harmon hotel on the Las Vegas strip was built in 2009 was so unsafe due to structural defects they had to tear it down without ever opening it to the public. It sat on the strip abandoned until 2015 until a judge allowed it to legally be torn down. Poor steel construction. It's very rare but still happens even with modern buildings. Thank god the inspectors were not on the take.

[quote] Who would be the defendant in these punitive lawsuits, [R196]? The HOA? The HOA consists of all the homeowners who were harmed when their own building fell down so they would essentially be suing themselves

I thought most Condo Associations don't allow owners to sue the condo cause as someone mentioned they'd be suing themselves. It's renters who can sue both the owner they are renting from and the Condo Association.

What is homeowner's or other insurance for if not to pay off the mortgage. I wonder what kind of inspection was required for the mortgages - maybe the lenders were also negligent or considered risk takers for not requiring a fuller disclosure or inspection before lending the money.

I don't think anyone (neither the survivors nor the deceased's estates) is going to get rich from the building collapse and the deaths. If the mortgages can be paid off (and I assume many of these people had personal insurance as well) and those who dependent survivors who still need to be raised and/or cared for, then that should do it.

Maybe someone wants to raise a novel theory if suing to governments for shoddy safety laws or inspections.

R198 here. The link in my post didn’t work, so I’m trying again.

The insurance carrier who has the hazard/fire/property policy can probably get out of paying if the loss was related to failure to maintain the building. If your house falls down because you let all the wood rot and get termite infested, that is not a covered loss. If it falls down during a tornado, that is a covered loss. The HOA liability policy will probably have to pay out up to the policy limit, due to the HOA's negligence in maintaining the building.

There doesn't seem to be any valid party to sue here. The building collapsed because the homeowners didn't maintain it. If they sue the HOA they are suing themselves. Where would the money come from to pay out the damages? They would have to assess themselves in order to pay out back to themselves. The HOA liability policy and the D&O policy that covers the Board's negligence are the only hope here it seems. And proceeds from selling the land.

R205 here. Basically: if you fuck up, sometimes you are screwed. You don't get to sue someone else to collect money for your own fuck up.

R206 et al. As the saying goes, “You can be sued for breathing” (and if you’re dead, your estate can be sued). Another saying is a trial isn’t about the truth; it’s about what an attorney can get a judge and/or jury to BELIEVE is the truth. Even complaints found to be frivolous will cost a defendant for the legal fees, like the Repubs that lost 50 frivolous cases trying to overturn the 2020 election.

Agree r205. I said in earlier threads that there are so many parties involved with this. The insurance companies will pay out the individual unit policies and building policy. They will also have the proceeds from the sale. FEMA assistance is already filling in the remaining gaps, otherwise all these people's families would be on the news right now complaining. They are already getting checks from the feds.

Its really no different from major hurricanes. That might actually be the silver lining because the insurers have already factored in this type of total destruction of beach front properties. Thousands of people experience total loss of their home every hurricane season and some people unfortunately perish in the home.

The lawsuits are “piling up.”

Hot survivor Gabe cannot sleep at night and needs someone to comfort him!

[quote]Here’s an example in which an individual condo board trustee was sued for a railing replacement mishap and found guilty by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. This case involved a tiny fraction of what went on at Champlain Tower South. Don’t think that individual deep-pocketed trustees can’t be sued personally if the Directors &Officers policy is insufficient or denies a claim

I read or viewed a video that the condo board had $400,000 policy on themselves (as board members)

[quote]There doesn't seem to be any valid party to sue here

They could sue the company that did the inspection. While it did mention there were some issues that would progress and a fast rate, no where in there did they raise an alarm or state the building was at risk of emanate failure or collapse. Unfortunately, they probably don't have 100 million dollars of capital to be sued for.

[quote]Its really no different from major hurricanes. That might actually be the silver lining because the insurers have already factored in this type of total destruction of beach front properties. Thousands of people experience total loss of their home every hurricane season and some people unfortunately perish in the home.

It's a lot different from that or other family dwelling (houses). Individual Condo owner insurance really only covers the contents of the condo. Condo insurance is different from homeowner polices.

Condos can decide how much is covered under the master policy (the building itself) and under what conditions. Depending on what the master policy covers, has an impact on individual condo owner's policies.

They're going to need a lot of help from the condo board. Those remaining members will all have lawyers, who are going to advise their clients to do the bare minimum and maybe even drag their feet.

And of course you forget to factor in for DEPRECIATION. A building with $18,000,000 worth of damages and major structural damage may halve (or maybe more) what the insurance company pays individuals for the building coverage. It could easily void the policy

Neglect is an exclusion (means insurance company doesn't have to pay a dime) to all insurance policies. Water seeping through a foundation is a big exclusion

[quote] 6. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, Surfside will amend its zoning law to allow buildings taller than 12 stories on a case-by-case basis, then approve it. Part of the rationale will be to encourage buildings like Champlain North that are "probably" OK, and too expensive to abandon, to sell out anyway by making the land they're sitting on sufficiently valuable to encourage them to take the win while they're still ahead and alive.

[quote] 7. Eventually, laws like that will become the norm across Dade County. Municipalities will grudgingly allow old buildings to be replaced by new ones that are slightly taller than would be allowed today to encourage old buildings that aren't bad enough to FORCE the demolition of to go away "anyway". In Miami, height is basically the one carrot the County (and municipalities) can offer developers (at no cost to the County or municipality itself) to encourage demolition and redevelopment.

I don't know what your timeline on "eventually" means, since eventually much of this will be underwater.

Anyway, I doubt that your predictions for Surfside will come true because a traffic study is required for approval of buildings, and traffic is already a nightmare in these parts. Also, you'll have everyone in Surfside out to fight these buildings because allowing developers to build bigger ruins the view and sunshine for residents who live to the west of the building. Surfside doesn't have to approve any building it doesn't want to--and the fact that it's such a small municipality means that residents have a stronger say.

In Miami Beach, you can get away with this because the commissioners are totally corrupt and do whatever the developers wants. (And, indeed, commissioners will tell you that on the beach, you don't have to worry about traffic because most of the new luxury apartments will never have people living in them.)

But check out how long the City of Miami has held back the Eastridge development--mostly because of traffic studies.

(The City of Miami already has the Miami 21 plan, which was supposed to allow for modest increases to zoning height for developers owning several acres of land--and it has been a nightmare.)

(And the county cannot offer height to developers--only the municipalities.)

Has Miami Condo's sister--acclaimed minimalist Marie Condo--released a statement?

Who wants to rent an Airbnb in an old condo building in Surfside this summer? Come on guys, let’s go out with a bang.

The thing about liability in a case like this is, nearly everyone involved has "unclean hands" and somehow contributed to it. If your house was destroyed by termite damage, I hit it with my car, and what "SHOULD" have been minor damage turns into total collapse, I can't use that as an excuse because precedent holds that a tortfeasor can't choose his victims or dictate the terms of their injury.

In theory, a victim is expected to not actively and intentionally make a bad situation worse, but successfully raising that as a defense is nearly impossible in most jurisdictions unless you can prove the victim deliberately TRIED to maximize their own harm & injury... and even then, the defense mostly goes out the window if the victim wasn't of sound mind (remember, a victim doesn't choose to become one, so you have to take your victims as they are).

There's also a concept called joint & several liability. Suppose a jury rules that a plaintiff/victim is awarded $10 million, and two defendants are 97 at fault... one is 95% at fault, but poor, and one is 2% at fault, but has deep pockets. The deep-pocketed party could end up having to pay the whole amount. That's why when something like this happens, defendants will fight to the death to prove ZERO responsibility, even if it's obvious they were at least 0.0001% at fault. That 0.0001% could cost them millions.

The insurance will pay up, and won't even try to get out of it, because it would probably lose... or at least, the political or PR cost would be too high to risk. I honestly don't think any individual who hasn't demonstrably committed a crime will ultimately have to pay anything their own insurance wouldn't cover.

Courts will be loath to extend personal liability of board members, because it would make it frankly impossible for condos to HAVE boards going forward. Nobody sane will ever agree to sit on a board if it exposes them to unlimited personal liability for non-criminal acts. I think there's actually a state law that caps the maximum liability of condo board members so they can buy insurance & know that's the limit of their liability.

Thanks, R217.

R211 That $400K of liability insurance covering the board is likely from the Directors and Officers policy. Assuming the insurance company pays out for the alleged negligence of the board members, the $400K will barely make a dent in covering the losses of unit owners, which may be multiple millions of dollars for EACH of the 100 unit owners in a class-action lawsuit, which the court seems to be encouraging the plaintiffs lawyer to do.

By the way, $400K of liability insurance for the board is WAY too low for a condo of that size in that location, but it kept the condo fee lower, which is a recurring issue in this tragedy.

^^Plaintiffs’ lawyers

The 911 calls have been released. This is the unedited version. Gabe Nir is in there @ 5:00, fleeing with his mom & sister. In his panic, poor Gabe kept repeating the address as "8-7-7 Collins" (instead of 8777). I don't know why one of the 911 operators was being such an ass, quibbling with him about the street number. They'd already received multiple calls about 8777 (including one from the fire alarm company), and they knew he (Gabe) was at the corner of 88th street. As he's busy correcting Gabe, you can hear the building collapse in the background. Fucking moron.

[quote]As the saying goes, “You can be sued for breathing” (and if you’re dead, your estate can be sued). Another saying is a trial isn’t about the truth; it’s about what an attorney can get a judge and/or jury to BELIEVE is the truth

R207, you can't just sue and get anywhere unless there is some legal basis. Having said that, I think there could be several theories under which lawsuits can be brought.

And if the cases are taken on a contingency basis by a real risk taking lawyer or law firm or one that thinks the publicity will be worth the costs of prosecuting the civil suits then the homeowners and survivors won't be out a penny.

R222 I was being somewhat sardonic in R207 but that isn’t always clear in written posts. The good news is the judge overseeing the 15 or so lawsuits that have been filed so far is trying to get the plaintiffs’ attorneys to consolidate their cases to help move things along (see R209 ).

r214, my whole point was that approving a height increase (while maintaining FAR) is a valuable bonus the municipality can offer WITHOUT triggering traffic studies, because a taller building is worth more even if its total floor area and number of units is the same as before.

Where Dade County gets involved is if the building exceeds 450 feet:

* There's a 500-foot nationwide height limit imposed by the FAA, which the State of Florida (or maybe it was just Dade County itself) reduced to 450 feet by default (on the assumption that most skyscrapers end up having antennas on the roof, so 450 feet leaves 50 feet for antennas). The FAA will waive it on demand, but only if the demand comes from the state... or a governmental delegate of the state (ie, the county).

* When someone wants to build a 150 story building in Miami, their first hurdle is the City. In the case of the literal City of Miami, or Miami Beach, it's almost a formality... they'll rubber stamp it, contingent upon getting the height approved by the County.

* The County won't approve it unless the Aviation Department approves.

* The Aviation Department won't approve it unless it's completely outside any conceivable flight path, because if a building lies within a flight path, the airport has to restrict the weight or require steeper ascent angles, which diminishes the economic competitiveness of Miami International Airport (MIA is one of the biggest air freight hubs in America) since it would mean heavy jets would have to burn more fuel taking off at a steeper angle, and might be delayed under certain weather conditions.

A few years ago, there was a HUGE pissing match between the City of Miami and Dade County over a proposed skyscraper (Empire World Towers). Basically, the City approved a request to build a 150 story building it knew beyond doubt the County would never approve, then issued a building permit to the developer anyway. I think the County eventually got an injunction, and an appellate court officially ruled that municipalities aren't allowed to pass laws that directly violate county ordinances.

It's kind of a shame the building never got built. It would have been so tall, residents on the upper floors could have stood on their balconies and looked DOWN at planes making their final landing approach, kind of like how Kowloon residents used to be able to do for jets landing at Kai Tak.

Thanks. The 911 call was interesting. Gabe was nicer than I would have been. I’d have just hung up instead of arguing about the address. The 911 operators have tough jobs though and it was almost funny when the operator kept asking what was happening and Gabe kept saying it was so smoky he couldn’t see anything!

A roof just collapsed on another apartment complex in Miami. I don't think this one caused catastrophic injury but people in Florida have to be getting nervous about their buildings.

It’s don’t care who dies in FL.

I completely agree, R255, it's a tough job. 911 operators deal with incredibly stressful shit, and as well as a good amount of incredibly stupid nonsense (i.e. people calling because the drive-thru screwed up their order). I am inclined to cut them a lot of slack, but that was just fucking RIDICULOUS!

^^ (oops....I meant R225)

The building had $48 Million total insurance. $30 million in property coverage, and $18 million in liability coverage for 136 units and 105 dead/missing and 8 injured

These people are fucked

I can't bring myself to listen to the 911 tapes (I can't torture myself), but based on the reader comments, it sounds like all but one of the responding operators were rude to abrupt with the callers.

They didn't include any of the calls from the stranded residents in this 911 release. There are only a couple of tense ones.

[quote], it sounds like all but one of the responding operators were rude to abrupt with the callers.

Unrelated to this collapse, a 911 call was released surrounding a domestic situation between a football player and his wife and the operator was incredibly rude, impatient and argumentative. I know they're trying to get pertinent information but it's better to be soothing than combative.

Jennifer Love Hewitt would NEVER be this rude.

Yes, they did, R232. Maybe not ALL the calls, but some of them. Did you even listen? There were numerous calls from within the standing portion of the building -- people stating that they couldn't exit via the stairwell & required rescue from balconies.

I think people are focusing too much on number crunching the insurance payouts. Of course the insurance providers will payout whatever it is they are legally obligated to. Like the lawyer at r209 said, this will probably turn out to be a mini 9/11, as far as settling with victims and families. The local and/or federal government will likely payout the additional compensation.

R236 Actually, that lawyer’s comment is interesting. 9/11 was caused by foreign combatants against the US. Floods, hurricanes, severe winter storms, heatwaves, and earthquakes are acts of nature. The collapse of the condo is mostly due to the errors of private parties. Are there precedents for state and federal governments paying for such errors?

The insurance company has a very definite "out". You cannot allow your building to fall into a state of disrepair over decades then collect insurance proceeds because your lack of maintenance causes a structural failure. That is not a covered event.

R238 here. Here's an example. If you have a single family home and a pipe in your ceiling suddenly and unexpectedly bursts, causing the ceiling to cave in and massive water damage, that is a covered event. If you have a slow leak over the course of years that you know about or should have known about due to the obvious ongoing damage to your ceiling but you ignore it and then it caves in, that is not a covered event.

r238 I dont think the insurers will deny any claims, even if there are some loopholes. It would be bad press for them as the suffering families have received so much attention in the media.

I think people need to keep this in perspective as well. This is one condo building for the insurers. It may be a big deal for the victims, but for the insurers its not. Hurricane Irma was the last disaster in this area in 2017, insurers in Florida paid out BILLIONS. The amount the big insurance companies will pay for this will never come close to what they pay when the entire state has homes flooded and destroyed everywhere, roofs ripped off, etc.

I don't want the government to pay anymore for this. These were mostly a bunch of rich people whose condos cost more than other people will earn in a lifetime. They didn't want to pay to repair their building. They didn't want the condo fees raised.

Yeah r241 I’m having a hard time buying the narrative that they all bought in the 80s as middle class people and couldn’t afford to pay for upkeep. You know what? That’s when you sell and move somewhere cheaper (and safer).

Single family homes are not much better, years ago there was a man sucked right into the ground from under his house leaving the shell in tact. Florida is riddled with sink holes.

R235 I was thinking about those who were on their balconies. We they from the part of the building that didn’t collapse? I didn’t see any photos of how they were rescued or if they were able to escape via the stairwells.

sigh, for the benefit of r243, South(east) Florida doesn't have a sinkhole problem. Central Florida has a HUGE sinkhole problem.

99.997% of what the media calls a 'sinkhole' in SOUTH Florida is just a case of a construction error leading to a foundation getting undermined by erosion, like if there's a void under a road that gets eroded out by subsequent construction & construction-induced temporary drainage failure that funnels water into it & undermines it. Or a big feral iguana digging a hole under a corner of someone's house behind a bush that goes unnoticed until the slab's corner sags or cracks off.

Central Florida has REAL honest-to-god sinkholes, where a huge underground limestone void collapses & creates an instant hole in natural land that was formerly stable.

Somewhere like downtown Orlando (or anywhere else that big buildings are constructed), you're SAFER than single-family suburbia, because they examine the ground a LOT more AND actively monitor the site for future problems going forward. You can justify requiring things for a $400 million skyscraper that would be economically-unfathomable for a $300k single-family house whose odds of succumbing to a sinkhole within 100 years are FAR less than the likelihood of a single-family home in suburban Kansas City succumbing to a future tornado.

Seriously, there are literally MILLIONS of single family homes in Central Florida. In any given 5-year span of time, MAYBE 2 or 3 will suffer media-worthy horrific collapse, and a few hundred will end up with very expensive damage whose usual solution is, "find the void, and pump concrete into it until it isn't a void any longer".

Because the amount of concrete required could exceed the land's already-expensive value, even a non-deadly sinkhole scares insurance companies shitless. Most policies limit insurers' liability for sinkhole claims to the value of the STRUCTURE.

So, let's suppose you own a house on a golf course in Sebring, and a sinkhole opens up in your yard... or even your neighbor's yard, and engineers determine it will require $400,000 worth of pumped-in concrete to adequately stabilize. Your as-yet undamaged house that you bought for $320k is now worth AT MOST the value of the house sitting on it... probably $120k-200k, and the county will probably condemn it until the void is filled. If you walk away, you're $100k+ in the hole (lol), because the land is now valueless until maybe the day someone finds a cheaper way to remediate sinkholes, or Florida reaches the population of Britain & the land alone would be worth almost a million dollars once the sinkhole is remediated, or a developer buys everyone out & builds a fully-remediated 80 story skyscraper on the site that's so much bigger than the sinkhole, it doesn't matter to it.

THIS is why Central Floridians, insurers, and legislators are so neurotic about sinkholes. Sudden catastrophic death from them is rare, but their economic toll is huge.

But Miami? Not a real problem. It's not impossible here, but it would be like a freak snowstorm causing a roof collapse in Las Vegas.

[quote] The collapse of the condo is mostly due to the errors of private parties.

Is this true? That insurance wouldn't cover negligence. Because lots of insurance does cover negligence. Auto insurance covers your negligence even for your own car. Is it just a different insurance theory?'

Yes, R245, you are absolutely correct. I grew up for a big chunk of my youth in Central Florida (Winter Park) and everyone there understands sinkholes - it's why we had so many lakes - from past sinkholes. There were some that I remember well but I had never heard of anyone dying except that one man when the sinkhole opened up under his bedroom as he slept. I remember more instances of slowly emerging sinkholes where people were actually able to not only get out but some were able to move their furnishings out as well over a period of days.

If someone doesn’t put any maintenance into their property this is what happens. And if you cannot afford the maintenance but the property is worth almost $1,00,000 you sell it and do what is caused “downsizing”.

$1,000,000

R244: Yes, they were in the portion that didn't collapse. The problem with the stairs: at the ground floor/lobby level, the stairwell door exited outside onto the pool deck -- which was now under 12 stories of rubble. There was no interior door from the stairwell into the lobby (which is one of the strangest design things I've ever heard, but whatever). Residents continued down to the garage which was filling with water from broken pipes. Some were able to make their way out through garage, but others -- seeing all the water & fearing electrocution -- turned around & went back to their apartments (or a neighbor's) to await rescue from their balconies.

Red arrow is pointing at the stairwell door

It's fairly common for emergency stairwells in highrise buildings to exit to the outside of the building rather into the lobby. If there's a fire you want people exiting the building, not going into the lobby. I've lived in 5 different highrise buildings, and all the stairwells exited to the outside. But maybe in other areas it's different, I have no idea.

r241 its too late, FEMA is already paying them. Its almost like saying the airlines should've paid out families after 9/11 for negligence. A reasonable thought, but in reality it didn't work. The feds paid out LIFETIME earnings to the families of those who died, and many of those who died were making huge white collar salaries. The FAA had safety standards which failed on 9/11, just like the local government does here. The local government sets the standards for the frequency and scope of the inspections, so they did have part in it. And its already been established that some residents who died did want the repairs done. Things were in progress but unfortunately it didn't happen quickly enough.

Recovery effort ending soon

Interesting theory: a large landscape planter played a role in the building collapse. This goes hand in hand with the prevailing theory that the poorly designed and built pool deck, coupled with incomplete or faulty waterproofing, effected the damage over time to brought the central building section down.

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I bet that greedy real estate developers will continue to build on the beachfront anyway. And stupid people will continue to purchase from them.

r256, in all likelihood, its beachfront location had nothing to do with it. Under otherwise-identical circumstances, the building would have probably collapsed the exact same way EVEN IF it had gotten built in the middle of Hialeah, 8 miles inland.

By now,everyone knows rainwater collected on the pool deck, then drained into the garage below. The pool itself had leaks. Both would have contributed plenty of water on their own over the years to adequately explain perpetual standing water in the garage.

I live in west Broward. A few years ago, my street was almost continuously under 1-6" of water for several weeks. Oh n0ez, Glo6alzWarmin6! Or actually, a drainage pipe a block away that got clogged by trash someone dumped. The county cleaned it out, and the flooding instantly stopped. Nevertheless, the fucking Sun-Sentinel (our local newspaper) still felt compelled to breathlessly ask whether we'd be Broward's first "Climate Refugees" in a completely stupid & pointless slow-news-day fluff article, then refused to print the 30 or so letters to the editor my neighbors & I answered their stupidity with (unanimous answer: "No, and please lay off the climate-change crack. It's undignified & unbecoming. for a respectable non-Tabloid newspaper.")

[quote]building was at risk of emanate failure

Oh, dear.

[quote] effected the damage

Oh, dear!

The guy trying to say it was a planter has no background as a structural engineer or architect. Just a YouTuber with Photoshop.

That graphic at R255 is missing two of the confirmed fatalities in #803 -- Fabian's partner, Andres Galfrascoli and their five year-old daughter. (both recovered July 8)

Okay r257, I hear you; you’re closer to the place than I am. But sea level rise is still a thing. Should they continue to build beachfront properties? Just asking?

How do you think they should handle new buildings post condo collapse? Just asking.

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There is nothing wrong with use of "effected" as a verb, dimwit at r258.

R263 you’re kidding, right? If you use “affected” as a verb it’s spelled with an “a” - effect with an “e” is the noun form.

So the building next door will always have a graveyard to stare at next to the ocean. Sweet.

r261, the thing people who aren't from Florida don't "get" is that we aren't afraid of our natural environment becoming uninhabitable, because Florida's natural environment has ALWAYS been uninhabitable. Our entire state exists due to wholesale terraforming. We beat nature into submission, and we'll beat it again, even harder, if necessary.

The fact is, almost every skyscraper on Earth has "wet feet" (pilings below the water table), and is basically like a mini offshore oil rig behind the facade & cladding.

Places like Miami Beach are so expensive, if the sea gets high enough, we'll just turn the whole city into a vast field of landscaped concrete decks surrounding a forest of skyscrapers, with tides invisibly flowing 20-50 feet below a manmade concrete shell. Or more likely, turn Florida into the world's biggest retained-earth structure, dumping crushed limestone below houses, and using garbage to build up the terrain for things like parks.

Also, new buildings now use epoxy-coated rebar, higher-strength concrete, and have sensors embedded to measure & track deflection over time. Prior to the 1990s, things like embedded electronic strain gauges were sci-fi level technology (at least, in "normal" buildings smaller than the Sears Tower). Now, I think they're required by code for skyscrapers.

I don't want to start any blasphemous rumor but were Moises Roden, 28, and Andres Levine, 26 from apartment 403 just roommates or were there "roommates"?

R268 Based on Google searching, the men were orthodox Jews of the Chabad group. Levine was engaged to be married to a woman in August and was a cousin of Roden.

Cousins can fuck

Shithead at r264: Effect is also a verb: to produce as an effect; bring about; make happen; accomplish.

But you're too stupid to live so why bother.

Even if you're right, R271, explain the rest of your sentence where you used "brought" instead of "bring."

[quote]... effected the damage over time to brought the central building section down.

Typo, cunt at r272. It should obviously be "bring". That's what typing on tiny phone keypad gets you.

The building I live in was built in 1990 so it's about 30 years old. Has it's own earthquake detector in the equipment room. Progressive thinking for the time. Our pool deck has been rebuilt 3 times. People running the HOA were on top of it. Never realized how serious that could be. A retired Architect was on the board during that whole process thank god. Recently found out through a paid study the building is not on rollers like we were all told by shitty Realtors. We are on a concrete raft of sorts. Apparently it's a common building technique for less than stable ground soil.

Never trust Realtors.

R274 are there cracks in the basement and flooding? Can I have your stuff?

You can have my stuff r275, but you will have to dig through about 24 floors of concrete. Actually, I am near the tops so maybe 3 floors.

This reminded my of that department store that collapsed in Korea. The executive were told the building needed to be evacuated by the structural team they hired. So they left immediately and it collapse that same day. Forgot to tell the rest of the staff and customers. Business is business.

Effect vs. Affect: Usage Guide

Effect and affect are often confused because of their similar spelling and pronunciation. The verb affect usually has to do with pretense." she affected a cheery disposition despite feeling down" The more common usage if the verb affect denotes having an effect or influence. "the weather affected everyone's mood "

The verb effect goes beyond mere influence; it refers to actual achievement of a final result. "the new administration hopes to effect a peace settlement"

"effected" as verb is probably not the best word to use is describing why an accident happened, as "caused" would have been better

[quote] Effect is also a verb: to produce as [bold]an effect;[/bold]

That’s a noun.

Indeed, you can produce an effect, or have an effect, but you can’t have something “effected” by something else.

Muppet.

R277, that’s fucking horrifying!

R266, is this a way to live?

r281, why wouldn't it be?

Have you ever SEEN the landscaping on top of some Miami condo parking garages? I've been to a few in Brickell that almost feel like the fusion of a hilltop Japanese garden and a luxury island resort.

I suppose someone with a fetish for raw nature might not think it's so cool, but really, it's no different than something like Brooklyn Yards or the High Line... just vastly larger in scale. The hardest part is establishing an urban framework with something like a sidewalk level to establish a pedestrian reference frame for the "main entrance", some way to walk between unrelated (but adjacent) buildings, and maintain public pedestrian paths at some agreed-upon (and probably city-dictated) height (so pedestrians don't have to take crazy 3-dimensional routes just to walk to a building "3 doors down").

Environmentalists look at Florida, and jack off to visions of humans getting flooded out & returning it to nature.

Floridians saw depictions of Coruscant a few years ago, and instantly knew that's what Florida will look like a century from now... with the Everglades merged into Lake Okeechobee, then becoming a saltwater sea & Dade/Broward/Palm Beach/Collier county's second skyscraper-lined beachfront coastlines.

We're going to systematically erase & annihilate whatever is left of Florida's natural environment... and that's totally OK, because our natural environment is miserable & unfit for human habitation anyway, and always HAS been.

Little-known trivia: during the Civil War, Fort Dallas (Miami) was continuously under Union control. Why? Florida didn't care because it was regarded as uninhabitable, and the Confederacy was more worried about Miami turning into a lawless haven for Caribbean pirates & decided that a mostly toothless enemy government was better than lawless chaos. It blocked Union ships from entering Miami, but quietly allowed "safe" supplies to be delivered so Fort Dallas could continue to maintain local civil order without presenting a direct threat to the Confederacy itself. It just took for granted that someday, it would "win", and would either get Miami as part of the peace treaty anyway, or the Union would be stuck with it as a useless exclave it had to spend money running in perpetuity.

The tail end of r282 also shows why South Florida has never really been part of "the South" despite its geography. Prior to the 1920s, actual Southerners regarded it as a bug-infested hot, humid, uninhabitable wasteland. The only people who thought it had any value were developers from Ohio & New York... and most of them viewed their buyers as suckers born every minute. Yeah, segregation existed... and its most enthusiastic celebrants were Yankee retirees who absolutely LOVED it & wished it were legal up north, too.

[quote] ypo, cunt at [R272]. It should obviously be "bring". That's what typing on tiny phone keypad gets you.

R273, not who you're arguing with but a typo of bring does not get you brought.

Stop using sexist slurs. That one you typed correctly I see.

Florida has never really been part of the south, for the most part it’s infested with northerners and people from the Caribbean and LATAM.

The F in Florida stands for fake.

More about that horrific mall collapse.

[quote]Indeed, you can produce an effect, or have an effect, but you can’t have something “effected” by something else

Sure you can. Used in a sentence: I fucked your mother last night, which effected a bad case of herpes. See? Clear and easy.

The final victim, yet to be accounted for. She was close pals with Linda March, the transplanted attorney who lived in the top floor penthouse, whose remains were found two weeks ago and just identified last week.

I'm sure they will eventually ID her, but it's clear that any remains still to be found will be very small, and difficult to identify due to their poor condition.

I remember reading that Linda March didn't have any immediate family. No children, her parents were gone, and her only sibling died over a decade ago. I imagine the delay was tracking down a cousin for a DNA sample?

[quote] At first, he was hesitant to visit the site's twisted steel and concrete chunks, wondering about his sister's final moments. Her balcony and living room were still eerily intact.

I am a real night owl so I guess I would have survived. Yippee! I would have been in the living room or out on the balcony. Or sneaking a lap or two in the pool.

Imagine if you were in the pool when that happened? It survived the whole thing untouched.

The site has been completely cleared. See the DM link above. There are no remains left to be found unless the rubble has been transported elsewhere and is still being sifted through, like what happened with the 9/11 wreckage.

The rubble has been transported off-site and is being sifted through, with the help of medical examiners. I read this last night (sorry no link).

They are supposedly putting the remaining rubble in small, two to three foot high piles and letting the sniffer dogs go over all of it. That's tells you what you need to know about what shape any remains are in. There's very little left.

The remaining debris should be used to create a small hill at a cemetery out in Doral with a memorial on top, and provisions to bury the remains of anyone whose religion asserts that separating their remains would have dire eternal consequences(*).

Do cemeteries still rigidly segregate graves by religion, or have we finally gotten to the point where it's unequivocally OK to bury an Orthodox Jew, a Catholic, a Southern Baptist, a Lutheran, a Sunni Muslim, a Scientologist, a LeVayan Satanist, and a Buddhist who died under the same unfortunate circumstances in the same shared burial ground, together with all the random bits nobody could really identify?

(*) I'm not really aware of all the rules some ultra-Orthodox Jewish sects have (and I've gotten the impression from Reform family members that the Orthodox practically need a lawyer advising them how to navigate their official rules to be fully observant) , but I'm pretty sure even THEY give G-d enough credit for being merciful enough to accept "98% of non-liquid body parts, and most of the debris that absorbed the rest, at the same grave site".

r294 Yes, what you say is true. It is understood too, that not only may a person be buried with, um, "bits missing", but you might also get mixed together with bits of someone else or elses. What is important is that the best effort is made to follow tradition.

Marie Kondo has bought the land!

MARIE ON THE LAND!!

Cassie's memorial and inurnment was yesterday. Here is her obituary.

She lost her house prior to this one in Katrina. Damn.

R298, I wish one of us who knows how to write something nice could put together a few kind words for her and post them on that site on behalf of Datalounge. For whatever reason, we latched on to her and I I’ll be thinking of her tonight.

The comments left on her obituary page were very moving. I rarely tear up reading a stranger's memorial or comments left there, but these were lovely.

R299 Oh, don't be shy. I'm saying that to myself. I am going to come up with something for her memorial when I am ready. Not to Frau out here, but it is truly the thought that counts. Your own words will mean everything, it doesn't have to reflect "our" words. Like I said, I'm still working out what I want to say. Everything sounds so stupid:

Dear Cassie, I wish you were safe and happy in your cozy little Marilyn home. Thank you for helping how you were able, you lovely soul..

r299 her family and friends might appreciate it.

Dear Cassie, we know nothing about you but for some reason are obsessed with you now that you are dead. Love DL 💋

How about: "to Cassie's family and friends: we didn't know Cassie but found out about her life and wonderful qualities in the days following her passing. She was a wonderful person who is surely missed by her loved ones, may they find peace and consolation that she touched many lives"

r304 I like that!

According to local PM news, the remains of the last unidentified victim were identified today. Sorry, I didn't catch her name.

R306, her name was Estelle Hedaya, 54.

Interesting article about the IDF's contribution to the search & rescue. The anti-Semitic trolls won't like it, but IDF had a 3D model of that building & the likely location of bodies (bedrooms) before they even landed in Miami.

I wonder if the difficulty in finding some of the final bodies was due to them perhaps not being where they were supposed to be, ie. bedrooms, living rooms. I wonder if some people were trying to leave the building when it collapsed, and were trapped in elevator shafts, in the lower stairwells, etc. They were close, but never able to get out.

It might explain why it took them so long to find Linda March, the attorney who lived in the top floor apartment. Theoretically she should have been near to the top of the rubble pile, but her body was one of the last located, as well as that of her best friend in the building, Estelle Hedaya (see r306/r307). Hedaya's remains in particular were very difficult to locate, because there simply wasn't much to find.

One wonders if they knew the building was in trouble, called each other and tried to get out together only to be caught in the downfall near the bottom.

I wondered about that, too. We know Angela & Deven Gonzalez (who were rescued from the rubble) had just exited their unit, and were running toward the stairs when it collapsed. I think it's reasonable to assume some others were doing the same.

As for Linda March...her remains were actually recovered on July 5th (the day after demolition of the standing portion), but it took two weeks to positively identify her because she didn't have any immediate relatives to supply a DNA sample. They had to track down an uncle out-of-state. (and apparently the i.d. process takes longer once you get into aunts/uncles/cousins)

The difficulty in finding the bodies undoubtedly came from them being smashed under tons of concrete and then ripped to bits as the concrete was pushed in every direction by the force of everything coming down at once.

Some bodies where certainly found. But by the time the dust settled, many of these people had been reduced to smears of organic material.

Hate to say this but I wonder if they actually found the last woman's remains or just said that. It would be heart-breaking to have just one person missing/unidentified. Especially since all the rubble has been carted away. I'm sure I'm wrong but it did cross my mind.

Oh, boy I thought the characterization about Florida being tacky was a bit over blown, but so far, every single interior condo pic and their owner who died in the tower have confirmed it is indeed the tackiest part of the country.

[quote] But by the time the dust settled, many of these people had been reduced to smears of organic material.

Yep, it you have ever stepped on a cockroach, that's about what's left of a lot of people in that building. I cant even imagine what the rescue workers saw.

[quote] Yep, it you have ever stepped on a cockroach, that's about what's left of a lot of people in that building. I cant even imagine what the rescue workers saw.

There will be massive PTSD from all of this year's shitty events.

If I died like this I wouldn’t give a fuck if they found my body unless there was an insurance payout to someone.

It's not all about you r316. No one actually gives a fuck. It's a job they have to do and rescue and recover is done for all bodies they come across. Your smeared skull and splattered eyes on the concrete still has to be recovered for proper body count.

[quote] Interesting article about the IDF's contribution to the search & rescue. The anti-Semitic trolls won't like it, but IDF had a 3D model of that building & the likely location of bodies (bedrooms) before they even landed in Miami.

I guess they have their Arab neighbors to thank for their expertise. Shalom!

Arabs are good at 3D modeling and building construction, so not a surprise they have a 3D model that quickly.

[quote] Shalom!

Or, as the Jews say, shaboom.

One wonders what you're good at, R319. My guess is nothing.

Did they find Ida Perlberg?

IMHO, the most shocking thing is that only ONE resident apparently had a streaming webcam.

Even if the owner was dead, it almost goes without saying that when something like this happens, the police are going to subpoena companies like Amazon for anything like 'Ring' videos associated with an account at the building's address. Ditto for Logitich & other webcam cloud vendors.

[quote]Even if the owner was dead, i

Dipshit, the owner was out of town and provided the video herself to the police. Stop living in fear of technology. The government is not coming to get you.

Reading comprehension really isn’t your thing.

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Also, on a happier note:

Shamoka Furman, the brave security guard who helped several people out of the building, finally got some recognition from local news following the release of first responder body-cam footage.

The GoFundMe started for her by a Champlain Towers South resident is now up to $16,500 Her car was destroyed in the collapse and she is suffering from PTSD like everyone else who was there that night & survived.

The GFE was about $6,500 when I posted on DL about her/heard of her.....so this makes me smile. A LOT.

Good for that lady, r328. Poor woman. The survivors guilt is probably debilitating.

Shit--poor people. How horrible.

I have been watching a lot of the structural engineers on Youtube looking into this. The general take is that the pool deck was not built right with proper drainage which allowed water to soak into the concrete, rust the rebar, expand and cause cracks and eventually failure. But that was not directly under the building, it was off the back. The pool itself was untouched and had nothing to do with it.

Quite a few minutes before the tower collapsed, as mentioned by residents, they heard a big boom and that's when what they thought was a sink hole was the pool deck collapsing in the cars below. But here is the kicker, the pool deck was tied into the structural columns. So when it gave away, it sort of yanked several columns out from under the face of the building. Then, it started to sway and collapse 15 minutes later.

So it was kind of a design flaw of the deck with poor drainage but it was also made worse when the residence had it resurfaced and covered with tile. The job was done improperly without a good water membrane and adding all that tile and sand increased the weight. If that's all true then I would blame the members of the HOA (all residence) for their short sided remodel without really thinking about the consequences. No one expects them to be Architects or Engineers but they should have at least hired someone to do a engineering survey before doing such a massive change to the building. There was no tile there when it was originally built. An average pallet of tile weight 2,000 lbs. God knows how much they used.

R331 Thank you for that update. Do you know if the “structural columns” were the external columns that went from the concrete deck to the second floor, which were there presumably because the ground floor was recessed inward from the floors above? I ask because a recessed first floor is an architectural feature of quite a few buildings.

I keep thinking about teenagers Deven Gonzalez & Jonah Handler who were rescued from the rubble shortly after the collapse, but lost a parent. It would be awful to have a parent die under any circumstance (random car accident, heart-attack, etc.) but during a catastrophe that YOU survived??

That's some heavy shit for a kid.

Interview with Angela & Deven Gonzalez

Stunt queens steal identities of victims! SHAMEFUL

Are they White r335?

[quote]Do you know if the “structural columns” were the external columns that went from the concrete deck to the second floor,

Yes, they were the outer most columns facing the pool holding up the outer edge of the building. Picture sitting in a chair with the two front legs tied to a rope that is suddenly yanked out from under. That's kind of what happens with the deck collapsed. I am not a structural engineer but it seems like that's not typical construction to tie the building main supports to the deck. If anything it would have been floating around it.

Thanks R337. If I ever buy another condo, it won’t be in a building with a recessed ground floor and external columns holding up the rest of the building. Where I live, construction has been shoddy since the 1980s.

It's not that simple R338. That's not how it works. Building collapse in America is extremely rare. You have a better chance of dying in a plane crash, stuck by lightening or in a car accident. The columns that failed were not recessed, they were on the outer edge of the building.

All bets are off if you live outside of the US. Third world countries like Mexico and Asia have lots of corruption going on in the trade all the way up to the inspectors. That's why places like Mexico city have really big casualty numbers when they have a good sized earth quake.

R339 Yes, it’s true it’s highly unlikely, and I do understand that the first floor itself (i.e. the lobby) was recessed, not the support columns. I previously rented an apartment in a building about 10 miles from where I live now that partially collapsed. I live in an area that is mostly at or near sea level and has a lot of landfill. In my first condo, which was brand new and situated beside a river, the exterior of one side of the building came off within a few years due to the winds from nor’easters, and other buildings in my current area have had the same problem. So, I’m unusually sensitive to the potential for building construction problems.

r338, that criteria will pretty much eliminate ANY medium-density construction just about everywhere in America. Basically, any neighborhood that's "urban enough" for multistory multifamily residential, but not urban/expensive/big enough to justify/permit a full-blown multi-story parking garage.

In neighborhoods like those, the builder's single biggest constraint is the need to satisfy the offstreet parking requirements with a ground-level parking lot sitting under the building. You can easily recognize those buildings... they're the ones where the ENTIRE first floor consists of two stairwells, a pair of elevators surrounded by an aluminum-framed glassed-in lobby with nothing else besides possibly mailboxes, and a trash dumpster adjacent to the street or alley.

In most cities, the minimum setback for a DRIVEWAY is 5 feet or less, but the minimum setback for a PARKING SPACE or BUILDING EXTERIOR SURFACE is 20 feet. So, the most cost-effective design for a narrow lot is to run a 20 foot driveway as close to the property line as you can, with a single row of perpendicular parking spaces along the inner side.

From a resident-desirability standpoint, the ideal would be almost the opposite... spaces where the front of the car sits 5 feet from the edge of the property line, so the doors lie below the building itself (so you can stay mostly dry when it's raining, even if the car's hood is under a virtual waterfall). This also allows you to put the building's outer columns in line with the outer walls of the upper stories. The catch is, most cities won't ALLOW that. They're OK with a driveway that's 5 feet from a landscaped property-line buffer, because cars don't REMAIN there for long, but will say no to cars actually PARKED 5 feet from the property line.

When you flip the layout so the driveway runs along the edge, you get to have parking spaces that are entirely under the building... but THEN you have to position the columns so they aren't in the path of a swinging door. In Miami, for example, the minimum legal width for a parking space is 8.5 feet... but that's only if there's open space along the car. If there's a solid wall, the minimum width increases to (I think) 10-12 feet (I forgot the exact details, but if you think of it in terms of a single-family double garage, the minimum interior width between the side walls is several feet wider than the minimum width of the garage door). So, what developers THEN try to do is position the columns so there's 18 feet between the column surface and front of the parking space, then argue that it's OK to have only 17 feet between the column surfaces between two adjacent parking spaces deeded to the same unit, because it's no different than a garage door entrance. The catch is... for safety, that's a really bad place to put columns, because THEN they're LITERALLY right next to the traffic path.

For BIG skyscrapers, it's all mostly academic. A 50+ story tower with 15+ story garage is going to span at least half the block, so there's plenty of room to do everything "properly" without cutting corners. It's the smaller infill buildings that get shoehorned onto substandard lots where the really suboptimal design decisions get made. It's a particular problem in "SemUrban" (semi-urban) neighborhoods that were originally built between the end of WWII and 1980s... they have no on-street parking to speak of (nor any room to put any), no alleys, and lots that were originally platted for single-family homes and shallow strip malls. In places like Hialeah (which USED to be Miami's trailer-park redneck outback prior to ~1960), there are miles and miles of 4 & 6-lane roads lined with strip malls and apartment buildings whose parking spaces literally use the right lane as a de-facto driveway. Basically, when the roads were widened in the 60s and 70s, the County made a deal with the devil to avoid having to buy the whole property via eminent domain by allowing that horrible parking lot design (after taking 40 feet to use for the newly-widened road).

[quote]The site of the Surfside Condominium collapse is being bid on by...a billionaire from the United Arab Emirates. Huh.