“Less Than Zero” on HBO Max

Loved it.

When I saw it years ago, I thought Andrew McCarthy was the weak link / a wet blanket.

Now I find his performance fascinating. A lot of his line readings are very odd. I kinda love him in this. He’s very beautiful and very sad.

I don’t think we’ll ever have another generation quite as lost as Gen X. Good for humanity, possibly bad for art.

[quote]possibly bad for art.

What do you mean?

Well, it’s hard to create art when you have no experience with despair. GenX had that in spades, however.

We could think of another pretty lost generation, R2.

Unbumping Madonna threads...

I loved RDJ about the give that guy a blow job when McCarthy burst into the bedroom.....

I loved the book and I liked the movie a lot. The soundtrack is still one of my favorites.

I like it when RDJ fucks his Uncle.

Wanna bum?

Sure!

Loved RDJ & loved all of Jami Gertz's looks in this. Agree w/ R2 that McCarthy was a wet blanket.

Rip’s henchman Bill looks like every present day, goatee-wearing hillbilly deplorable in central and southern California.

In lower profile interviews, RDJ talks about this movie a lot. He seems to greatly admire the movie’s director, a fairly obscure guy named Marek Kasnievska.

RDJ really comes alive when discussing the director, who basically left the industry rather than participate in the studio system.

Interesting when you consider his dad (and apparent source of so many of RDJ’s issues) was also an obscure director with allegedly fierce integrity.

As with Home For The Holidays, Robert is just playing himself at the time.

R11 Marek Kanievska's Another Country (1984) is a masterpiece.

This was filmed right before RJD went down for drugs. Pretty sure he was living the part in real life.

[quote] Interesting when you consider his dad (and apparent source of so many of RDJ’s issues) was also an obscure director with allegedly fierce integrity.

Who was his father?

Such a heartbreaking scene.

R16 And then...he fucks his Uncle to get back at Daddy. And to cum.

Julian was very hurt.

That opening scene though.

I thought the film was great. The book was so fucking all over the show, the film focused Ellis' as usual, shoot everywhere vibe,

But loved the dialogue in the book when dick head lead accuses his 13 year old sister of stealing his cocaine and she sneeringly dismisses him with the rejoiner that she has her own coke dealer. Classic.

R18 it was Muffy not Buffy on Square Pegs.

When I saw this movie as a teen, it seemed completely normal that these kids would be trying to rescue their friend Julian.

I watch it as a 49-year-old, and I’m struck by how these kids are utterly abandoned by all the adults in their lives. It’s horrifying.

18-19 year olds nowadays are still living with their parents and don’t even know how to do laundry. Which is its own problem, but such a jarring difference in only a couple of generations.

Jamie Gertz was very hurt.

The only Ellis novel I've read was The Informers and it was easy to read because it was a collection of short stories. I hated all of the characters. Spoiled, shallow, greedy, vapid, racist, misogynistic and everything everyone hates about L.A. I'm not surprised Ellis comes across like that in real life in his podcast and interviews. I tried reading American Psycho and it was boring to me. The film adaptations of Ellis's works always seem superior to the source material.

So 80's.

i've never seen American Psycho and nor do i want to. Much less read it...why do people laud it so much? i mean, i watch Forensic Files as does the next person but i just can't abide watching something that i've heard is so depraved.

They ruined the movie by straight washing the lead character.

I remember my utter shock when Roger Ebert gave this movie 4 stars.

I like this movie and the novel but 4 stars!? (this 4 out of 4). It is a really good movie, but I agree with others that McCarthy was just not right for the part and it kind of brought the movie down. Gertz and RDJ were perfect.

Wow I just looked it up and Ellis has published one book (non-fiction) in the past 11 years. How does this man live?

HOLY SHIT. Nevermind.

He has a Patreon with 3800 subscribers. Even if every one of them is at the $2 level, that is $91K a year.

Jamie Gertz never looked prettier than in this movie, IMHO.

I really liked Glamorama. But then the torture scenes popped up and I put the book down. And I love horror but this was like a window into a psycho's brain and I just didn't want to be part of it.

I would have liked for Jamie Gertz to have a bigger career. She doesn’t need to…she’s beyond loaded…but I like her on the big and small screens. Always fun to watch.

the torture part of this author's mind is horrific.

I love this movie, but I've never quite figured out why. I've watched it many, many times. I guess it's the unbridled hedonism combined with the fact that no one in it was particularly happy or fulfilled.

Money isn't everything, kids.

I wish Nudity friendly Phoebe Cates had chosen to play the role of Blair instead of doing the “other” coke movie, Bright Lights Big City

What happened to the pilot they shot in 2019 for Amazon ?

R35 I know the director and a few people who worked for him on this. They shot the pilot, it was a disaster. They reshot the pilot, it was even worse. Hulu (not Amazon) pulled the plug.

Brett does great docs: The Kid Stays in the Picture, Montage of Heck, the best 30 for 30 episode about OJ. He went to Crossroads in LA and his wife went to Bennington. All of this is prime Bret Easton Ellis/LTZ territory. It just did not come together on screen like it should have.

I didn’t even know they were making a pilot

I liked the book, the movie was terrible except for Downey's performance. Saw it in a theater when it came out, I was about 16 and we laughed at Jamie Gertz and the solemnity of Andrew McCarthy. As well as the overblown nature of the film. The whole theater was laughing at the wrong places, at times. It's interesting that people today take it seriously. Just read A. McC.'s book, Brat. He was often on drugs or drinking on his films.

I read “Brat” too and was struck by how detached —maybe even withdrawn— McCarthy seems to be from everything and everyone.

I got the impression he connected to Spader and Rob Lowe at least a bit (or at least enough not to skewer them in his book.) Emilio Estevez and to some extent RDJ come across as pricks.

Spader comes across well in everything I’ve ever heard or seen (interviews.) he is truly a quirky guy. Somewhat unusual to have any inner life when you start off life looking like that.

[quote]Somewhat unusual to have any inner life when you start off life looking like that

?? - What do looks have to do with inner life?

Don’t be obtuse, r41.

Beautiful people have personalities too and it also depends on their upbringing. Spader said in some interview, he acted on stage all his life and he also comes across as very intelligent and nerdy.

Ellis was the Hubert Selby Jr. of the 1980s.

[quote]18-19 year olds nowadays are still living with their parents and don’t even know how to do laundry. Which is its own problem, but such a jarring difference in only a couple of generations.

Student loan debt, stagnant wages, and the insane cost of real estate.

R42 Spader never seemed like a pretty boy or a dumb bimbo, he started on the stage, he wasn't *that* hot, so I didn't get your comment I guess.

Ellis definitely seems like someone you have to be part of Gen X to fully appreciate his works. It doesn't help, he comes across as utterly obnoxious and bratty in interviews and spends his time bashing other people on social media.

Yeah, Jamie Gertz did very well for herself. She's aged beautifully too. Her husband is self-made, when they first got together she had more money than he did.

I’m surprised they tried to do a LTZ series. Sure, there will always be neglected rich kids... but the absolute soulless -ness of the 1980s is hard to replicate.

R46 Also, most of your personality develops in preadolescence. Maybe, Spader was an awkward looking kid and was an outcast in his childhood or maybe he parents that stressed he be studious and very disciplined in the arts. He just happened to blossom into a good-looking young man. But his attractiveness was mostly charisma, his presence and his hair. He lost it by the late 90s. He still has his intelligence and talent which can't be taken away.

Rob Lowe is someone who coasted off of his good looks despite his lack of talent. He seems like someone who was good-looking his whole life and it worked to his advantage. He comes across as completely boring in interviews but is probably nice.

Andrew looks so beautiful in the early scenes. The he starts acting in earnest and the glow is gone.

R49 That's the same reason Heathers cannot work as a reboot. It was totally a product of the vapid Reagan era.

Stinks. They ruined the book. Only worse adaptation was bonfire of the vanities.

I was struck with how self-destructive McCarthy was (Downey was ridiculously so - how he ever came oujt of it with a successful career, I don't really understand). According to his book, he took any movie that came along, and like I said in another post, he was sometimes drunk or high in scenes, i. e., on film. I didn't think he was a great actor or great looking, but he had a future and real opportunities. He did do some movies for Claude Chabrol but after a while his Hollywood career just died.

As a young gayling watching this when it first came out, I was starved for anything gay and sexual, and the scene when RDJ was blowing the guy blew my damn mind. My VHS tape was worn from rewinding that 5 second scene so much. Starved I tell you.

It’s JAMI. There’s no “e.”

McCarthy was pretty much in a movie or two every year in the ‘80s. He consistently worked. I never found him hot, though. He’s actually better looking these days.

As much as we talk shit about Tom Cruise, he was one of the very few actors of his generation who didn't get sucked into that whole 80s scene of debauchery and partying. Most of his contemporaries burned out, but his work ethic kept him going.

Spader did well for himself, too. I’d much rather have Spader’s career than Tammy’s.

Lesh Than Shero, with Jamesh Shpader.

Lucy wanted to play the Jami Gertz role but Gary talked her out of it.

I miss that Robert used to do really good movies like this. Now we’re stuck with Dr. Dolittle shit.

Who's Lucy?

Lucille Ball r63. She was up for a number of roles and her husband Gary Morton talked her out of it. At around this same time, she almost did 91/2 Weeks but Gary also talked her out of that. Kim Basinger got the role.

^LOL.

The film was so sanitized compared to the book.

I'm sure Julian still gives good head.

[quote]I miss that Robert used to do really good movies like this. Now we’re stuck with Dr. Dolittle shit.

His hope was that he could do the Marvel films as retirement fund and could do "serious" work like "The Judge" for himself. Then that film - which was actually good - tanked, so he just resigned himself to stick to the Marvel films and produce.

I'm curious if he really feels can't find another good role or he doesn't want to take a pay cut and he's priced himself out.

If the film were made today it would be totally true to the book but back in the 80s it was too hot for a general theatrical release.

[quote]His hope was that he could do the Marvel films as retirement fund and could do "serious" work like "The Judge" for himself.

Why do actors like him need to do any movies for "retirement fund?" Isn't he paid, like 20 or 40 million per film or something absurd like that? How will he ever spend that?

Jokes on him. There aren’t any real films being made today. It’s all comic book shit.

No one’s financing the “What if Julian had lived!” Circa 2021 movie.

I need to see this again. I remember back in 1987 I loved the Bangles' cover of Hazy Shade of Winter, the stylish look of the film, and I thought Jami Gertz was so gorgeous.

RDJ should have played Perry Mason, like he was going to.

Andrew Mc C looks drunk in the opening tracking shot.

It works for the shot, though. Those big, blue, vacant eyes.

Lots of movies were made under the influence in the 80s. The sets back then were pretty boozy and cokey.

Rules Of Attraction is the only BEE book i've read. I ended up hating everyone but Paul. I do like the movie and Dick's scene is a classic.

RDJ didn't do a blowjob scene. He was sitting dick to dick with some guy. What fucking film did you all watch?

He was sucking him off.

They were face to face. RDJ's mouth was no where near the cock.

Sucky sucky G.I.

Someone take a screenshot of the scene to settle this once and for all.

The movie was beautifully shot and some of the interiors were very LA 80s icy and eerie. But I kept wondering why they didn’t take RDJ to the hospital.

The Judge was a really bad movie. Something absolutely talentless people get involved with.

Downey used to be an excellent actor. Equally good in comedy and drama, which is quite rare. All that money went to his head. That producer wife of his, Susan, wouldn't know a good movie if it hit her on the the head.

The guy was sitting on the bed and RDJ was on his knees. What movie were YOU watching R76/R78?

r76/78 must have watched the edited for tv version.

I loved how Blair's father couldn't be bothered to interrupt his coke snorting to see his daughter, yet asks if there's anything he can do for her. I had a friend who basically had Blair's life - rich as hell but parents couldn't be bothered. She was so unhappy. Multiple suicide attempts. Sad situation all around.

I am skimming through the book now and it doesn't seem that far off the mark from the movie. It has more drug use and sex but the sleaze factor comes through in both equally, IMHO. Loved the film and agree McCarthy was the weakest link.

bump

R86 here. Forget what I said, upon closer inspection, I agree the book is much darker than the film. Of course, they probably couldn't show a twelve-year-old girl getting drugged and gang raped.

The McCarthy character willingly watches Julian whore himself out in the book.

R60 Liza! Tell us your version of the night you took Andrew McCarthy and his friends to Sammy Davis JR’s house for a “jam shesshon” He wrote about it in detail in Brat, his new memoir

I loved the look of the movie, and it really captured the feeling of emptiness and shallowness of the 80s.

BEE is such a poseur. I can’t believe he has a following.

And The Judge was a terrible film.

I liked RDJ in Zodiac, the film completely ran out of steam when his character exited. As interesting as he is, he hasn’t really made very many good films. When he was moaning about not having an Oscar a few years ago, it was like - yeah, but for what?

Did Rip and Julian ever get it on in the book? Rip seems like an old queen in the body of an 19-year-old drug dealer.

I don't remember Julian fucking his uncle.

Downey was brilliant in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Tropic Thunder, which were also great movies, but you hardly get an Oscar for a comedy performance.

I saw KKBB recently again and it's still funny as hell. Amazing script by Shane Black who also directed.

RDJ was a very fuckable twink in the 80s. He lived an openly bisexual lifestyle and even dated Sarah Jessica Parker. Then he got arrested and decided to live as a boring straight conservative.

My bisexuality was MANUFACTURED by the mainstream media R96!

He was, R14. A friend of mine was an extra in the club scene, he’s on screen twice if I recall. He said RDJ was on something during the shoot. Gertz was very friendly and approachable. I don’t remember him saying much about McCarthy if at all.

RDJ has been very open about his raging addiction while shooting this film. He and his (then) wife actually buried his outfit from the movie in the ground as a symbolic gesture once he decided to get clean after filming wrapped.

Love the Mom Jeans in r96's pic.

Would love a Bluray but it's a Fox film so Disney will never put it out

Remember there was a long thread a few years back about an on-going affair RDJ was having with Daniel Craig - with eyewitness reports of seeing them kissing outside of a gay bar or something?

Was that for real or just fanfic?

Brad Pitt was an extra in the Christmas party scene towards the beginning of the film. He's the big blonde mulleted guy in the shades and tank top, seen dancing on the left side of the screen at about the 3 second mark. Watch from the beginning to around the 10 second mark...

RIP Robert Downey Sr

I think the film version would have worked better if they'd kept the original ending from the book, where Clay decides to go back east to school but Claire STILL won't leave LA. It would have been more logical: What the hell would she do while he attended school at Harvard/Yale/wherever? If Clay had been going to Columbia and she could model in NYC, maybe . . .

*Blair won't leave LA

Does she say she will leave at the end of the movie, though R105? Just remember Andrew McCarthy saying he wanted to take her back east with him but don’t remember her agreeing.

She does agree to go when they are sitting in the cemetery after Julian's funeral.

I was pissed that Jami got a haircut from The Lost Boys.

Yep, she agrees, and the last shot is the taxi taking them away from LA.

RDJ is a rich spoiled LA brat with a drug addiction, is omnisexual and had industry connections which gave him leeway to fuck up over and over. This role required no acting whatsoever.

If RDJ wasn't available then Charlie Sheen could have done it too.

As a willing member of the DL movie club (which ALWAYS disappoints or confounds - except w/ Jean Dielman), I am watching Less Than Zero for the 1st time tonight.

Andrew McCarthy is hot. Why didn't he have a better career? I'm watching it now.

RDJ's long time personal assistant died recently too in a car crash.

Most of the Brat Packers lost their hot film careers once the zeitgeist changed in the early 90s RDJ hung on through sheer luck and charisma. James Spader did indies and then made a fortune in TV, as did Charlie Sheen. Rob Lowe has done well in TV, too. Demi Moore managed the transition to 90s A-lister but then aging caught up with her like it does most actresses.

The early 90s seemed to be a shift to more social consciousness and an understanding racial/class issues, hip-hop and grunge became the popular music among teens. I can see why the Brat Pack became a relic by then.

The Reagan-era aesthetic and flash and glamour of the 80s were thrown out in the early 90s. The zeitgeist definitely changed. I can remember the endless articles and op-ed pieces about this.

Yep, compare the Brat Packers to early '90s darlings like River Phoenix, Keanu Reeves, Winona Ryder, and Bridget Fonda. Totally different vibe.

Even at the height of her fame, Demi Moore as considered a joke of an actress. People used to wonder how she got so famous.

The late 90s did try to revive the Brat Pack vibe with actors like Freddie Prinze Jr, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Josh Hartnett, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Tara Reid, Ryan Philippe and Reese Witherspoon, this was around the time that teen pop and boy band music made a comeback.

I'm very much of the era, and I absolutely loved the book. There were things about that book that I aspired to, which makes me laugh now. I WANTED to be a glamorous LA kid with plenty of money and nothing to do except entertain myself.

The book is grittier and dirtier and realer, and Clay, the main character, is sooo much more interesting in the book.

River's Edge was another dark teen film from the 80s that had a more realistic and grim portrayal of suburban adolescence. It was Keanu Reeves' big break and he was pretty good in it. Crispin Glover and Dennis Hopper also costar in it. I would place it up there with Less Than Zero and Heathers.

I loved this film so much - the clips above brought it all back. I used to have a thing for Andrew McCarthy and even then felt RDJ wasn’t acting at all really.

R114 did you hear him on rob lowes podcast? Love when he was ribbing Lowe for doing the oscars show white number and said something like: if that was me I would have been so embarrassed I would have packed up and left Hollywood. Low may as well have, he really only made a come back almost 10 years later on the west wing.

R125 Lowe got food notices for Bad Influence (good movie, actually), which was only a year after Snow White. That + hosting SNL/showing he had a sense of humor about himself + Wayne’s World was the beginning of his comeback. He really wasn’t down for long.

The fact that Rob Lowe had any type of comeback is pretty amazing.

That would never happen today.

He's lucky social media wasn't around to remind the world he fucked a 16-year-old girl and blew off a dude on camera.

R126 I guess he was good at playing that particular character - the smug psychopath, I don’t remember the film all too well but I didn’t think it was terrible. I’m not a huge fan of lowe’s though and I couldn’t have predicted the later career success that he’s been having - same with Patrick Dempsey. But if it could happen for them I’m sure it could have happened for McCarthy too, surely there was a cute lawyer or doctor role for him on a series.

[quote]blew off a dude on camera.

Suck off or blow.

I like how Lowe has no regrets about his sex tape and even makes fun of it. I still don't get how he wasn't charged for child pornography. Apparently, he settled out of court with the family but isn't that a federal crime?

R129 it was a similar dynamic to Internal Affairs if you’ve ever seen that. I think they came out around the same time, too.

FYI the Rob Lowe sex tape that's been available to watch on the internet forever is not the one with the underage girl, it's a different sex tape and the woman in it is of legal age.

R133 Where is the video of him blowing a man?

Streaming on Peacock, R134.

I was working on Dukakis' Presidential campaign in 1988 and I met him. He was traveling with the candidate to meet & greets. I was awestruck. He had a beautiful face. In fact he was really nice and went though the whole routine shaking hands on the rope line, etc. No movie star vibes, all low key and he seemed to enjoy himself. Little did I know that the convention tape of him doing the dirty would come out. I was a fan.

Doesn't Andrew start off the movie waking up in bed with a T-shirt on but no underwear ?

Andrew's character was fucking men and women in the book but the movie had him chasing pussy only.

^^they couldn't show that in the 80s. If the movie were made now it wouldn't be a problem.

Some datalounge gossip from back in the day for R102

—Anonymous reply 405/14/2017 allegedly they had a thing for some time and there was an award show or award after show party where someone took a photo of RDJ touching Daniel Craig's ass that showed up on datalounge, unfortunately the whole thread was deleted about one day later. RDJ has a history of being at least bi [R5].

The rumour was also referenced on LSA and in other DL-threads like the 'Are Tom Hiddleston and RDJ a couple thread'.

Some infos from the thread below:

The Downey and Craig relationship might be true. Sevral things point to this.

- They were "Having Fun" at the 2014 Producers Guild Awards according to some attendees.

- Downey LOVES english men.

- Downey SWOONDS for Blonde men.

- Craig loves dark haired daddies according to a producer whom I met.

- Craig thinks that Downey is an intelligent, beautiful man. Are you kidding me? Sure, he might be beautiful, but now straight person would say that unless if he's his son or father.

I think this might be true. My sister-in-law is in the business. She is dead certain that Daniel Wroughton Craig is indeed a homosexual. Her agent was at a wrap party and saw that Daniel and Rachel never touched each other, not even eye contact. Apparently RDJ was there and Daniel Craig was very in to him. She said that they were an item behind closed doors. At thanksgiving, she told me that she knew dozens of closeted homosexuals in the business, but wouldn't tell me because "it's their right to do it themselves". I agree with that. She showed me a photo and Daniel was grabbing Robert's arse. Not gay at all. It's just so sad that people have to lie to themselves just so they can save their careers. But it's really common in Hollyweird.

I wouldn't be surprised if DC visited this thread to see what people think or know, in this case almost everyone thinks that he's gay. Supposedly, Daniel Craig kissed RDJ at the producers guild award backstage. My friend who catered in there told me that. I don't it though.. ON CRAIG

I know for a fact he's at the very least bi....I watched him pick up my friend in nyc once.

I also watched this for the first time thanks to this thread and although the movie is not true to the book, it's still a beautiful film. I don't like how they made Clay the conservative anti-drug savior, but the romance twist on the story, compared to Clay's dissociative apathy in the book, was nice. Great directing.

[quote]Doesn't Andrew start off the movie waking up in bed with a T-shirt on but no underwear ?

Yep, he's Porky Pigging in that scene. And odd choice to have him in a shirt instead of just having him either be completely naked or at least have on some underwear.

[quote] I still don't get how he wasn't charged for child pornography.

He's an attractive, rich white male.

BEE is a conservative now - I don't read anything by him anymore. American Psycho is a better book and movie than LTZ to me. The thing I found annoying about Psycho were the pages long descriptions of the murders and gore. It was a funny satire and so was the movie. LTZ is a navel-gazing bore. Just finished Liz Phair's Horror Stories memoir, and she's already a better writer than BEE.

In the movie Clay wasn't chasing pussy, he was obsessed with Blair. Which, may I say: Jamie Gertz was a really good young actress. I never got what happened to her. She just disappeared from acting roles.

r25 I made the mistake of taking "American Psycho" seriously on the first read. I found it depraved and disturbing.

When you realize it's a satire, the book makes more sense.

loved the book, loved the movie.

[quote] Jamie Gertz was a really good young actress. I never got what happened to her. She just disappeared from acting roles.

There's no in Jami.

**No "e"^

She had three sons with her husband and the two of them went on to build a multi-billion dollar empire.

She and her husband are billionaires.

R151, how are they billionaires?

[quote] Demi Moore managed the transition to 90s A-lister but then aging caught up with her like it does most actresses.

Demi Moore really got lucky in terms of career even though it eventually sank by the late 90s. She was pretty but far from the most beautiful and I don't think she was all that charismatic, talented or interesting as an actress. Her hoarse voice was also kind of annoying. I still can't get over that video I watched where she is high as a kite kissing her 15-year-old General Hospital costar at his birthday party. She was grown and he still looked like a child which is the most disturbing part.

R143 I definitely believe his celebrity status was a big reason that no charges where placed and he was able to just settle it out of court. Also, I think it helped this scandal predated the 90s hysteria around child molesters. I don't think Lowe would have been able to walk away from that without any type of charge had it happened in a later time period. Yes, I know he wasn't aware of the girl's real age or maybe he did know and didn't think filming it was a big deal since since she was still over the age consent. It's possible he didn't know about the laws regarding filming sex acts with a person under 18 and a homemade sex tape wasn't something he thought would leak. But that hasn't stopped people from getting charged and sentenced for child pornography. I don't think he deserved prison regardless but I just find it funny how it never was a federal charge.

[quote] [R151], how are they billionaires?

“But it’s not the girl-meets-billionaire story most people assume. “Everyone thinks I married a rich guy,” she tells me the following day over lunch. “But I made more money — way more money — than Tony when I met him. I paid for our first house. I paid for our first vacation. I married him because I fell in love with him.”

— Jami G.

Gertz is terrible in that linked LTZ clip above. She's telegraphing her lines and acting way too much! She was better in Lost Boys and Modern Family.

R157 totally miscast too - Blair was supposed to be this gorgeous California blonde model - and instead, look what we got. If she gave a good performance I could overlook the superficial discrepancy (unlike many here I didn’t care that Pfieffer didn’t ok the part” for Frankie & Johnny; her performance drew me in) - but she’s not much of an actress either. Oh well. RDJ was good at least.

Not to pile on Jami (who I actually like), but her dress at R150 is the ugliest, most unflattering garment I've seen in.... a long time.

Girl, that's not your dress. That's remaindered Christmas gift wrap.

RDJ seems to be playing his druggy, cokey self in LTZ, not a real stretch.. I read McCarthy's recent bio, and despite his checked out, vacant, shifty eyed persona, he really was a dedicated acting student. He does mention staying at the Sunset Marquis in the 80's and seeing Roy Scheider sunning himself in red Speedos on a daily basis.

Robin Wright would have been a perfect Blair. She was the right age, too.

James Spader was great as Rip, but he'd have been a fantastic Clay, too. Clay is supposed to be blond and beautiful, and McCarthy was never more than pleasant-faced.

[quote] instead, look what we got

Jeez, you act like she’s a beast. Film adaptations of novels aren’t always 100% faithful to the source material.

I don't mind Blair being brunette, but Jami Gertz never convinced me as a model. She was pretty but not pretty in the way models of that period were.

I love Jami in this film. She personifies a lot of what I like about the '80s and her entire image conjures up the '80s for me. In fact, when I think of the '80s, I always think of Less Than Zero.

Uma Thurman would have been an interesting Blair, and she had quite a healthy modeling career in the mid-to-late 80s. She might have looked rather young next to RDJ and McCarthy, though.

R164 well right - I’m not hung up on the blonde per se it’s just the whole package like she was some model goddess every guy would want.

I still enjoy the movie a ton but not necessarily because it was good. But yes James Spader would have made a great Clay but he wasn’t a lead actor/star at the time.

Robin Wright is quite lovely at R161--but I believe that's her old nose.

She's had a bit of work over the years.

Wright should have stopped after the first nose job. The refinement shown in the 3rd picture looks a bit plastic.

Kelly Lynch for Blair? Or would she have been too old?

But I love Jami. Always felt she added a “who are we kidding, you aren’t model material” angle to the story.

Any model with a real future would have been modeling in New York or Paris, not in LA. The fact that Blair is hanging around LA doing soap ads shows that her career doesn't have much of a future. Her only future is to marry a rich man, which she has in the sequel novel.

Speaking of Brat, Andrew McCarthy has a passage in it where he describes a date with a gay guy which leads them to the 9th Circle bar. The guy dies from AIDS and is sort of a reference point for that but at least he admits to a gay date.

Well the cheerleader heather from heathers played Patti, she was a model in real life. I’m just saying the choice of Blair could have been worse if they had given her the role for example.

Loved the book, hated the movie.

Andrew described Jami in his memoir as “gentle and well meaning.” I hereby declare I never want anyone to describe me as “well meaning”- in a book, at a brunch, in a eulogy…

R175 Did he just leave it at that or did he say more ?

Always loved Jami. She is very funny in the underrated sitcom "Still Standing". I knew I was gay in 1987 but I was memorized by how beautiful I found her in "The Lost Boys". Of course I was jealous she got to kiss Jason Patric. It's nice to know they are still friends all these years later.

Jami had an enviable head of thick, dark hair. She and Sarah Jessica both did in the 80s.

I loved Square Pegs. I could never buy Jami Gertz as a sexy beauty in Lost Boys /LTZ because I always thought of her as Muffy Templeton.

Re-Watching LTZ tonight!

There are a few shots where Spader is looking at RDJ as if he’s in love with him. Quite jarring when you consider what’s going on with their characters.

Jami/Blaor always struck me as more NYC than LA.

I thought the sub text of the movie was that Spader's character is Gay and he IS in love with DJ. He forces him to suck guys off to pay his debt, but I think he was also trying to humiliate him for not wanting Spader.

57 yr-old here who has never seen this one. I didn't have time to watch the whole thing but I put it on for 10 minutes out of curiosity and was immediately struck by how odd McCarthy sounded. He has a very high-pitched, whiny voice.

[quote] I knew I was gay in 1987 but I was memorized by how beautiful I found her in "The Lost Boys".

Oh, dear.

Michael Bowen was hot in this as Rip's henchman Bill. He's the half brother of Robert and Keith Carradine. Played douchebags in several 80s films, including Valley Girl and Private Resort.

The book was different. Very nihilistic. It was hard to root for anyone(deliberately), they were a bunch of spoiled, rich kids who seemed to be just going through the motions. Even the big epiphany of the main character is when he sees some of his friends fucking a drugged, tied down twelve year old girl, and he says to one of them, I don't think it's right. It took the whole book for him to realize something like this was wrong and maybe his friends weren't the best people.

R185 you can’t really do that in a movie and have it work. Not that you have to have all lovable characters , but you need at least one somewhat sympathetic protagonist on which to anchor the rest.

The book could barely manage a cohesive sentence. The movie was way better.

When this movie came out, I was in my last year of boarding school. Although I wasn’t one, I was friends with lots of rich kids like this. It wasn’t as depraved, but there were no adults supervising our druggy drink weekends.

Parents were busy doing their own thing. Now, as a 50-something person, I’m amazed at how much parents DO for their college-age children. Everyone I knew was responsible for getting their own food and laundry and transportation taken care of.

RDJ was beautiful when he was young. I didn't necessarily think so then, but I do now.

r188 what happened to those spoiled rich kids? Do you know what they're doing now?

Problematic! I am a huge fan of BEE and the movie was a disappointment. It had none of the shock or explicit material in the book. I love Jamie Gertz, but she was miscast Blair and played this character completely wrong. There was no chemistry between Clay and Blair in the film. Clay was disaffected and had no feelings. This was shot in the height of "Just Say No" & "Gay Sex = AIDS" which is why it deviated so far from the script.

The Informers was another huge, missed opportunity. That had a great cast with very interesting potential. It is unwatchable for a second viewing. LTZ I will watch over Christmas once every few years.

Pros - It was beautifully filmed, the soundtrack is fantastic, and I like the aesthetic.

R188, most turned out just fine. One just died from being an alcoholic, but none turned out like Julian. And the guy who died had a career and a family for a while. He just went downhill in the last five years.

[Quote] Played douchebags in several 80s films, including Valley Girl and Private Resort.

Fucking hated Tommy in Valley Girl but I'll take this actor over Logan Paul.

R191 I'm not a big fan of Ellis but you're right. Recalling the book, didn't it have some people involved in making snuff films? And it had much more gay material, about hustlers, for ex., and the main character, as has been stated, was bi. Jamie Gertz was miscast as a somewhat jaded rich LA girl. When I saw the film, and that scene came on where there was a party with all those TV screens, and Jamie with the big hair and the dress she had on, I knew this film would be nothing like the book, which was much more everyday and matter of fact.

By the way, didn't BEE go to Bennington (small liberal arts college in rural Vermont)? I think that was the sort of college Clay in the book is returning home to LA from. Not Harvard or Yale.

Yes, R195. BEE went to Bennington, which became "Camden College" in Less Than Zero and Rules Of Attraction.

I think, to understand Less Than Zero, one should read Rules of Attraction first, then LTZ, then reread Rules. Then the context is understandable. Then read Imperial Bedrooms, which is Clay's first literary appearance chronologically. You'll find that Clay is really just a lump of passive modeling clay used by characters around him to shape into whatever they want.

One of the few death scenes in a movie that makes me cry. I think that it was the music.

"Disappear Here"

R194 They're at a party where a snuff film is screened.

Jamie Gertz was a neurotic JAP in the film, which is actually fairly accurate for Beverly Hills, but not in line with the book. Blair was the aloof cool girl, very blond and tan with a gay father who fucked young aspiring underage actor. Clay was bi sexual in the novel and couldn't even remember his sisters names. In the book was paid to watch Julian get fucked and he did without intervention. Julian wasn't much of a character in the book, there was no redemption arc. There were snuff films (kids getting fucked and mutlilated but big black men), orgies, etc in the book. The movie went through several hands and studio heads. There was a more authentic script, but by the time it came out in the late 80's (it was written in 79/80) most of the edge had to be blunted, especially they gay/bi-sexual elements to most of the characters in the novel.

Ellis went to Bennington and for those from LA, he went to Buckley for HS. He wrote the book at Buckley and finished it at Bennington where it was published his freshman year. He's doing a serial on a book he wrote in lockdown, The Shards, on his podcast. It's basically the real life LTZ with all the real people who are the inspiration for the book taking place at Buckley. It's OK, but worth subscribing if you are into his work. He started doing a chapter a week around August/Sepetmber 2020 and it should wrap up by the end of the summer. It's kind of fun to figure out who all the real like characters are.

I rewatched last night for the first time I was a teen. Jamie Gertz was strangely shouting her dialog, Andrew McCarthy was fine. RDJ was just being RDJ but we didn’t know that collectively until he really started fucking up his life (remember when he was passed out in some kids room). He played a crackhead pretty well in LTZ.

It’s too bad they used alot of classic rock when SoCal had such an amazing new wave/ska scene in the early-mid 80s.

By the way why was it called Less Than Zero? I haven’t read the book since the 80s so I do not recall.

[quote]Jamie Gertz was strangely shouting her dialog

Exactly

Jami is a good comic actress and with solid direction, capable of heavier drama, but she is clearly at sea here. I don't think she or McCarthy are good in LTZ.

I generally despise RDJ, but he's pretty good in this. And Spader is as well.

She has a Chicago accent, she doesn't seem like an LA chick in any way.

R201 The title is from the Elvis Costello song

I agree that they should've used music that was contemporaneous to the time instead of classic rock. It would've added to the atmosphere of the film.

I think Less Than Zero should be remade and be 100% faithful to the book. Back in the 80s that just want possible for a major theatrical release, part of the book were too raw for mainstream audiences.

[quote] I think Less Than Zero should be remade and be 100% faithful to the book

They've tried and I think there was even a series in production recently for a streamer, but they pulled the plug. They might have even filmed the pilot.

Less Than Zero and Imperial Bedrooms both come from Elvis Costello.

Andrew McCarthy said that RDJ was in the beginning of his ultra heavy drug addiction and was on a hot one during the entire filming, which might have been why he was the best of the case. McCarthy said everyone partied like the book and he himself was a major alcoholic who was drunk on set everyday.

It's a miracle RDJ survived all of that. He was using IV drugs, not just the powdered stuff. Some people just have iron constitutions and can survive just about anything.

I remember thinking in the mid 90s I could wake up and he could be dead anytime hearing it on the news. Textbook definition of a garbage can addict. Hate his shitty movies nowadays, but I will always give RDJ much credit for turning his life around.

Sooundtrack songs

R209 just because he didn’t die of an actual overdose doesn’t mean he’s not going to have a heart attack in say the next 5-10 years. Coke addiction especially has long term effects that go well past the time one stops using!

So we’ll see if he really has an Iron Man constitution in upcoming years.

This was BEE's commentary, but if Clay had just been home from Thanksgiving, why cinematically would he be smiling with the windows down looking at all the iconic LA spots of the time when he had just been home 3 weeks prior with the endless looping of Hazy Shade. It introduces those who didn't read the book to Clay's world visually but didn't make sense in terms of narrative.

True r212. Look at all the celebrities from the 70s and 80s who died as a result of past drug use. They'd been clean for years, but it still caught up to them. John Ritter, Robert Palmer, David Bowie just to name a few. Many others.

Paltrow would have made a good Blair if she were 3-4 years older in 1987.

R213, good point but would Clay have actually gone to LA for Thanksgiving?

Many families go to a vacation destination for Thanksgiving. Then you have those rich kids who go on their own vacations together for T-giving because they know they’ll be going home for Christmas.

I rarely made a cross country trip “home” from school for both T-giving and Christmas.

But, I haven’t read the book. So I’ll defer to whatever it says.

At a certain point some movies stop being good or bad and just become fascinating artefacts of their time.

Observations: Jami Gertz is not a good actress. To my ear, she sounds very Midwestern and not very Californian at all.

Has RDJ had plastic surgery? He looks a lot like a young Anthony Michael Hall here.

I never realised this was a Christmas movie.

I really like the scenes with Thomas Newman’s scoring. There’s something so lush and dreamlike about those scenes.

This is a midnight movie.

Andrew McCarthy is sort of perfect as BEE’s idealised self.

Also, when the definitive film about the Trump presidency is made - they need to cast James Spader as Trump.

McCarthy is also an Easterner (New Jersey), so is Spader (Boston). As a college friend of mine from New York put it, an East Coast kid would say fuck off but mean take care, a California kid would say take care but mean fuck off. Some California guys I knew were very personalble and acted friendly but were also standoffish and chilly. Not all, my best friend was from LA. But that's how I saw the kids in this story, and the film tried to make them the opposite.

This movie is better with popcorn.

I read this book when I was just starting to begin to admit to myself I was gay (took me a few more years to admit to anyone else) and loved it. I was excited for the film, and then hugely disappointed with the changes (less gay Clay, Blair being WRONG) but I was only 17 and didn’t really think about how Hollywood had no balls then.

Yeah, they don’t really grow kids like Clay in LA. Not even in the 80s. He reads very East coast.

Now RDJ… he reads 100% LA.

There’s a metallic weirdness to kids who grow up in LA. You can smell it a mike away.

Or, alternatively, a mile away.

In the book, this was Clay’s first trip back to LA since he started school four months prior.

Virginia Madsen is an extra in this too.

R222 I laughed at "metallic weirdness". Not sure what it means, can you elaborate?

[quote] good point but would Clay have actually gone to LA for Thanksgiving?

They made it clear he did. When he has a flashback at the beginning when he's wearing no underwear, he walks into Blair's loft and catches them in bed. He throws the flowers at Julian and says Happy Thanksgiving.

I spent the last 20 mins of this film thinking, “Just die already.”

The AFI catalog has an interesting write-up of the production history as well as a long synopsis of the film.

[quote] McCarthy is also an Easterner (New Jersey), so is Spader (Boston). As a college friend of mine from New York put it, an East Coast kid would say fuck off but mean take care, a California kid would say take care but mean fuck off. Some California guys I knew were very personalble and acted friendly but were also standoffish and chilly. Not all, my best friend was from LA. But that's how I saw the kids in this story, and the film tried to make them the opposite.

Hollywood seems to think Middle America can't tell the difference between the major coastal cities. A lot of actors from California (or frankly anywhere else) can't pull of the NYC (or Boston/Philly) attitude either. '

After reading this thread (and replying at [R221]) I decided to watch before it’s gone from HBO Max. It’s such a letdown from the book, but it really does have some good scenes. I never thought about it, but the poster above is correct…the music is wrong. There should have been more of that KROQ music. The Bangles song is awesome, though, and even Goin’ Back to Cali by LL Cool J works.

I first saw this as a teenager living in the deep south. I knew nothing about music. But even I remember thinking, “no, this is wrong” when I heard the Bangles song. I knew there was no way a song I’d actually heard on the radio had any business being on this soundtrack.

A million years later (and now that we’ve forgotten the Bangles, who were once ubiquitous) the song doesn’t offend as much. But it’s still not quite right.

“Bright Lights, Big City” is a truly terrible movie. But the soundtrack is much better than the one for LTZ.

Semi-obscure songs, but still accessible.

R232, another teen in the Deep South when I saw this. Surprising our little small town theater showed it.

R233, you are correct. Shitty movie, but great soundtrack. My friends and I loved that song “Ice Cream Days” by someone named Jennifer Caron Hall.

The Pretty in Pink soundtrack introduced me to a whole new world of music that I’d never been exposed to. We had no cable or alternative radio stations, and that soundtrack is what started me on the road to anti-Top 40 music.

I love Glenn Danzig's "Less Than Zero" and Aerosmith's remake of "Rockin' Pneumonia and the Boogie Woogie Flu" from the soundtrack. Rick Rubin of Def Jem was the producer of the soundtrack, and the Hip-Hop flavor he added with the LL Cool J and Run DMC tracks work, to me. And Thomas Newman's score is BEAUTIFUL.

*Def Jam

The timeline of the movie doesn't really make sense. Clay, Julian, and Blair graduate in June, and by December Julian has blown all of the seed money for his record label AND gotten so deeply in debt that he's become a drug-addicted hooker? Consider, too, that this all must have happened between September and December, since Clay knew nothing about Julian's troubles when he left for college. Also, if Clay and Blair only broke up 3 weeks ago, his intense longing for her seems a little far-fetched. He should still be pissed off about her sleeping with his best friend.

The timeline of the book makes more sense. At the start of the novel, Clay's been gone from LA for 4 months, and it later becomes clear that Julian has been whoring himself for a year to pay off his drug debt (which he's finally managed to pay off, but it's left him with a wicked drug habit). There was never any seed money from his father to lose. Clay and Julian aren't best friends in the book, so it makes sense that Clay doesn't know about Julian's problems. The only reason he seems affected by them at all is that he associates Julian with childhood innocence (there are multiple references to Clay's memory of the two of them playing soccer as children).

Clay and Blair broke up over the summer, not because of her infidelity but because Clay completely shut himself off from her after the death of his grandmother, the only family member he seemed to care about. Clay is much more ambivalent about Blair: She is the one pursuing him over Christmas vacation, and at the end of the book she forces him to admit to her that he never really loved her because he loves nobody. He goes back to New Hampshire alone, and you get the sense that he's done with Blair (a supposition supported by the sequel novel Imperial Bedrooms).

[quote] "metallic weirdness".

I don't even know what this means.

James Spader was the most aligned looks wise with the visual of the character. I think he would have made a much better Clay than McCarthy. Ellis did not have any say in the casting but his perfect Clay would have be Anthony Michael Hall and Bridget Fonda for Blair.

LA eldergays, the club scenes with Julian and the group totally fucked up was based on a night at Flippers Roller Rink on La Cienega and SM Blvd in 1979/1980 in the real life recollections. I wasn't around yet but I remember hearing stories of Flippers being a roller rink by day and a club at night. Does anyone remember this place?

A friend of a friend of BEE’s told me in the late ‘80s that they book, initially at least, was just BEE’s diaries; a professor at Bennington read it and got it published as part of a 3 book deal. (I don’t know how much he tarted it up for publication.) Then BEE actually tried to write Rules of Attraction or whatever which was a flop. With one book left on his deal, BEE decided to go for broke and write something incredibly controversial - the plan all along was to create a literary scandal - thus American Psycho which was dropped by his publisher, of course, and kind of cemented his reputation of stringing together designer labels and gruesome descriptions of violence in a detached, unreflective monotone. I remember my friend telling me about it many months before it was dropped by Simon & Schuster and then the events played out rather prophetically. I’m sure even BEE was surprised that it eventually became something of a contemporary classic; but BEE is definitely a case of the emperor’s new clothes. He had two cards up his sleeve with Less Than Zero and American Psycho but he’s really more of a disaffected personality than a writer, which is probably why he’s being doing film reviews and a podcast for the last decade.

It was really Mary Harron who located the black comedy in the piece and rehabilitated his reputation. He’s really not much a writer; more of a manipulative media figure playing the odds in his own favour. Not so very different from someone like Ann Coulter.

Rules of Attraction is my favorite BEE book.

R241 "It was really Mary Harron who located the black comedy in the piece and rehabilitated his reputation. He’s really not much a writer; more of a manipulative media figure playing the odds in his own favour."

100% agree. Jay McInerney (Bright Lights, Big City; 1984), Bret Easton Ellis (Less Than Zero, 1985), Tama Janowitz (Slaves of New York, 1986) were all playing with them around the same time and they were present in the same magazines. And they were all dressed like characters in a Susan Seidelman film. I liked three of BBE's novels but I found his interviews very bland. Capote died aged 59 in 1984. I always hoped BBE would turn into Capote over the years in interviews but no, he's 57 and it's not happening.

I fired it up last night. I watched the beginning so I could remember that part, then watched the club scene with my friend in it, then forwarded to the BJ scene and left it on until Julian died and to the closing credits.

I didn't need to watch much more.

I'd also credit Christian Bale's incredible performance as Patrick Bateman. He made him a character instead of just a collection of tricks and tics as he is in the novel.

What was the cause of Julian's death?

Overacting

The casting in AMERICAN PSYCHO is spot on, generally: Reese Witherspoon, Chloe Sevigny, and all those Wall Street dudes: Justin Theroux, Jared Leto, Josh Lucas.

Given the low-ish budget, Mary Harron did a remarkable job. The best of the BEE adaptations yet.

Ellis has nothing to do with American Pyscho, the movie - it was directed by women and was given a comedic element. They did a fantastic job and Bale was fabulous. The supporting actors were great too - Jared Letto, Reese Witherspoon, etc. That is a movie I really need to rematch.

What most impressed me about the film is how perfect the music is. The film is set in 1987 and all the songs are what you heard on the radio and in clubs that year. It seems like a small point, but filmmakers so often don't get that right. My favorite use of music in the film is probably Bateman marching in stony-faced while listening to "Walking on Sunshine" on his Sony Walkman. It captures his entire fake but desperately up-to-the-minute persona so well.

R246 - good question. I thought it was impolite to ask. Herpes, maybe?

The problem with RDJ’s performance is that he gives NO indication that Julian is worth saving.

After reading this thread and watching LTZ, I rewatched Rules of Attraction. Other than Shannyn Sossaman (or whatever) it’s really pretty good. The Dick scene with Our Faye and Swoosie was great fun.

I am watching American Psycho now. Bale is really amazing in this…and so hot.

Christian Bale used Tom Cruise as inspiration for Patrick Bateman

Agreed, R243. Mary Harron and Christian Bale deserve all the credit; BEE NEVER couldn't created that character.

R246 I think death by blow job. one of the previous scenes had clay rescuing him from giving a blow job to a guy. Best guess is the guys penis was laced with some sort of toxic substance which killed Juliet within hours.

If chynna Phillips could act, she may have been a good Blair.

Go fuck yourself, R256. They never showed him using drugs prior to him dying in the car and AFAIK, he was with them and ostensibly on his way to getting better if not clean, so go suck a dick.

R258 take your meds you moron. Clearly he had been on drugs the entirety of the movie and had only just gotten clean. Obviously the drugs had taken a toll on his health and going cold turkey didn’t help. He had a heart attack.

I've always liked it. I never read the books, so there's no hand wringing about how closely it follows it.

The "book," not "books.

It occurs to me that “Julian” is a common name for male hustlers. (Richard Gere in “American Gigolo” was also named Julian.)

RDJ is so good in Tropic Thunder and Zodiac. Where did it all go wrong?

I like how Blair is spoiled and neurotic, but yet isn't really afraid to get dirty and affirmatively acts and isn't afraid of the grossness of it all. Like when Julian ODs and Clay is horrified, but it's implied that Blair has done this several times before and dealt with the piss and vomit and mess - both literal and figurative.

Also, her arc clearly shows her determining that it's all bullshit and that the party life she's living really can't lead anywhere good. Clay, on the other hand, just seems like he wants to leave because he's scared.

Blair's short interactions with her dad show how she's just sort of ignored. And she seems to get that it's "first world problems." She's not being abused by her family and she doesn't want for things materially. She's just sort of dispassionately neglected, like that's the norm.

"If the film were made today it would be totally true to the book but back in the 80s it was too hot for a general theatrical release."

It wouldn't. It might be as "extreme" as the book, but it would be wrongly diversified - not that diversity of wrong, but LTZ was looking at very specific subset of LA rich kids.

Also, it wouldn't present the hedonism, drug abuse, sex, and everything resulting from that mere looking into how these people live. It would be purposely saying "look at this" and needlessly elevating the drama and conflict of situations that are already drama-filled. And, it would have a message, not by showing you the message, but by blatantly telling you the message via character TED talks.

Finally, there would be phones, which changes every social dynamic tenfold.

r265 it would be done as a period piece, not updated to modern times.

R258 must've missed the scene earlier in the film at the club when Julian takes a hit from a crack pipe.

Ennui, R246.

I’m enjoying this thread even though I haven’t seen the movie since the 80s and don’t remember much about it. I’d even forgotten The Bangles’ Hazy Shade of Winter came from this soundtrack. I do remember the gay blow job scene being scandalous to my white-bread, suburban high school peers at the time. I really want to read McCarthy’s book and rewatch this now.

"Andrew's character was fucking men and women in the book but the movie had him chasing pussy only."

And not even that. He basically is just on and off with Blair. He might have talked to a few women out and about, but he was hardly chasing pussy.

I get the "straight washing" for a big studio film, but they could have at least made him a bit sordid, sex-hungry, and interesting. Nevertheless, I still thought McCarthy's Clay worked in the movie, but clearly it's a different thing from the book.

BEE has the best podcast. The real life Blair's dad hit on BEE at a bungalow at the BH Hotel. He ultimately died of AIDS. The gay dad trope was touched on in the book.

[quote] The problem with RDJ’s performance is that he gives NO indication that Julian is worth saving.

I disagree. I thought the one of the most touching scenes was Julian and his dad when he breaks into the house. There is something in RDJ's face that is sweet. He's not a bad, which Julian in the book was written in a much darker fashion. We don't know much about him other than he is a childhood friend of Clay's and I think his mom died when he was young.

It's also *implied* that Julian died of a drug overdose, but that he also had AIDS in the film. I didn't necessarily grab that when I first saw it, but after reading some articles it was during the Reagan years where gay sex had to equal AIDS.

Everyone is worth saving

I used to think that Julian’s dad was a horrid dick, but now that I’m an Old, and have more life experience I have a different perspective. Addicts may not be bad PEOPLE, but they do bad things to get money to feed their addiction.

You absolutely have to set boundaries. You can still love them, but you don’t have to let their fiending, thieving asses into your home. Or, I don’t. YOU can.

People always say someone is "playing themselves" and therefore it's easy. Being surreptitiously filmed being yourself would be easy. Acting like "yourself" in front of a camera I don't think would really be easy. Sure, you have material to draw on, but you still have to act, fit specific lines and mannerisms into a scene in a very specific way that the director wants. And, you could have an inclination to do it differently since you have first-hand knowledge.

RDJ is a naturally gifted actor. Certainly leagues above the other Brat Pack stars and associates who were all just marketing and as a result had their careers fade.

(R275) Yes, A gifted actor to play Iron man for over 10 years and Doctor Dolittle.

R276 You can be gifted and you can also be lazy and greedy. They are not mutually exclusive and many intelligent people purposely dumb themselves for money.

(R277) you know he didn’t even finish high school, right?

I'll "Mary!" myself before saying that it's just gorgeously shot and everything that follows. I LOVE the look of this movie. It really captures LA and the sense of endlessness of such a spread out city/metro. It captures it's beauty - mostly at night, but not totally. And the intense, varying color palette of different scenes is stunning. The glowing blue when Julian shows up at Clay's house and is sitting by the pool. The intense red when Blair makes her way down to a corner of a club when she's trying to get away from people. The calming mint green when they're at that one late-night spot with the booths and Blair reminds Clay that Julian was always there for him. The cinematography also does a good job at capturing purely wealthy, privileged LA, so you really experience the bubble of these rich kids. The only time you're even remotely taken out of that is maybe when Bill has Julian turning tricks at that one hotel.

Finally, while a good deal of the movie happens at night and it's moody and dark, nearly all of the truly bad things happen in bright, often harsh, light - Julian's OD in the harsh light of the loft, his father's rejection during the middle of the day, Julian having to turn tricks in Palm Springs, again in brightly lit apartment, Blair having her "I can't do this epiphany" in the harsh light of the club bathroom when the girl's nose starts bleeding, and of course Julian dying on the way back to LA in harsh desert sunlight.

R278 You know there are different levels of intelligence and high school doesn't make you intelligent. It just teaches you writing composition, basic mathematics, some science and reading comprehension. Many intelligent people actually end up bored with school. I know plenty of intelligent blue-collar people and plenty of dumb college graduates.

(R280) Charlie Sheen

Charlie Sheen is an asshole but he's also intelligent in a way. Humor is a sign of intelligence. Both RDJ and Sheen were beneficiaries of nepotism and are spoiled and smug. That's why they are reckless and irresponsible because they have freedom to be. But both have comedic talent which means they have some intelligence. They aren't textbook educated but who in Hollywood is? Truly dumb people aren't really clever or good at timing.

Even though I think it is not a good movie as a huge fan of the book, I agree with everything you said R279. It's so beautifully shot and all the various lighting elements create a sexy, decadent atmosphere. Especially the blue lit pool against the red art work. Love the opening party with the TV's and ice. The only thing I didn't buy was Blair's downtown loft. BH girls didn't live in DTLA in the late 80's, but whatever, that's nothing.

The Shards is absolutely brilliant. BEE's magnum opus. Quentin Tarantino is a fan.

Blair in LTZ is based on Julie Foreman, daughter of John Foreman, who was Paul Newman's producing partner. If we're to believe The Shards, Bret Easton Ellis had sex with his girlfriend's father (John Foreman) when he was 17 in hopes of getting his screenplay made.

Well done, R284. Out of privacy, I didn't want to out the family, but this is all true. I don't love The Shards as much as I would like to but I want to see it through to the end. I think a new installment drops tomorrow. The Shards is fiction based on reality.

By the time Julian is hanging out of the car while singing Silent Night, everyone in my theater was screaming for him to die already.

I haven't watched the film in a while, but I seem to remember that on the way back from Palm Springs, they stop at a gas station and Julian goes into the bathroom. That's when, presumably, he takes the dose that ends up killing him a little while later. Classic OD scenario.

Clay wasn't exactly chasing pussy in the book, but he does have sex with a boy and a couple of girls besides Blair. None of the encounters are described in any detail and Clay doesn't seem to care about the sex much. He just seems to do it because it's something to do, like he does most things.

If Blair is based on Julie Foreman, then Jami wasn't terrible casting for her. Foreman wasn't a California blonde.

The Blair character in the book might be "based on" Foreman, but if BEE changed her look to classic California blonde and tan, then Gertz's casting would be both right and wrong. I've just always seen the book and movie as related, but two entirely different things, so whether the movie is faithful to the book or any inspiration for the book really doesn't matter to me.

Just like I did with [italic]The Color Purple [/italic], I saw the film first and read the novel afterwards. I wish that I hadn’t, because both films suddenly became disappointing to me. By watering them down for mainstream consumption, they neutered the characters in the movies.

I think Spader's Rip in the movie is a great character and Spader plays him wonderfully. I really never see him as truly evil. He's just "that guy" who provides the goodies to rich people - drugs, sex. There's bound to be negative consequences, but there would be no matter who is providing those things. Obviously he does force Julian to do sex work, but that's after he gave him a long, long leash. They have their whole conversation about how much Julian owes him and how long he's let it slide. Don't get me wrong, I don't see him as a good guy by any means. He's probably the most straightforward character. A salesman who deals with a very specific set of clients.

All the people saying that RDJ is a lazy asshole just playing himself: all I know is that the scene where he is naked and preparing to get oral on another guy was one of the most shocking things in the context of 1980s teen movies I had ever seen. If he was playing himself, he certainly was fearless about showing the world something you just didn't see outside of actual porn in those days. And I'm wondering what 20-something of today would agree to do that scene and make it work the way he made it work. This also isn't the only time Downey played someone who read as gay or bisexual - a lot of his early minor roles in things like "Back to School" have him playing an androgynously attractive punk/eccentric.

Will Smith (whom I like as an actor) refused to kiss another male actor in Six Degrees of Separation, which come out six years after Less Than Zero because he thought it would hurt his career. I think Downey deserves some credit.

As for the Marvel crap - well you can either play those roles badly (hello, every single person in the Star Wars prequels) or you can play them well. Downey, along with a few of the others (Hiddleston, Holland) plays them well enough that I actually enjoy his character's movies, although I otherwise don't give a damn about superheroes.

At the time of Less Than Zero, Downey was thought of as a comic actor. Ok, maybe he had done dramatic roles, I don't know, I'm not going to check his filmography. But that's how he was thought of, and he had been on SNL. Maybe this has been mentioned, or not. But the fact that he played this character who projected pathos, and was moving, seemed like a departure at the time. People didn't seem to think he had it in him, and it was a revelation to some people.

Every book written by BEE reads like it was written during a 3 day coke binge. Especially American Psycho. Bret was always a major douchebag, but seemed to turn things around once his lover died of a drug overdose at his own birthday party. After that, Bret straightened himself out for awhile, but now he's back to his narcissistic, douche-y self. The only indication he doesn't snort the powder anymore is, there hasn't been a novel by him for years.

[quote]but seemed to turn things around once his lover died of a drug overdose at his own birthday party

Details, R294? This is so amazing that it should be in one of BEE's novels. If it's not already.

I've heard a few of BEE's podcasts, but no references to that story. I do know he makes a point of being sober (and how that made NYC a bore for him).

I remember in the semi-autobiographical novel, Clay, the protagonist, is described by his girlfriend as a "beautiful boy" and he may have been described as very attractive elsewhere in the book, so I was kind of shocked when I first saw a picture of Ellis and didn't think he was even remotely beautiful and not even handsome. He looked a little bit like a pig, actually.

BEE thinks BEE was/is a beautiful boy, perhaps.

But you're correct, R296. Something very porcine about him.

R297, that's an awful photograph of him - I've seen pictures where he looked quite attractive.

But he was never as good looking as his characters. Few novelists are.

No way in hell anybody with eyes called that 'beautiful' even when he was very young.

Ha, Bret Easton Ellis looks like Phillip Seymour Hoffman's fatter, older brother.

And yet in this semi-autobiographical novel he was getting bi booty fairly easily, like there were no better looking guys around to get first dibs.

He was a pig-faced fatty

He’s no North Morgan.

Andrew McCarthy described the filming as a terrible experience.

Of course it would be a terrible experience.

Bret gave several interviews on the topic of his boyfriend's overdose. I'm surprised he never wrote about it, but like a number of authors, he probably can't write a thing when he's sober.

"And yet in this semi-autobiographical novel he was getting bi booty fairly easily, like there were no better looking guys around to get first dibs."

I don't understand how gay guys don't get it. Common refrain on DL - no one (man or woman) who isn't model looking can ever get men or women. It simply doesn't work that way. Yes, attractive people get laid. But plenty of less-than-models rack up the hook-ups. People really do have "energy" that attracts people and, obviously, guys have DICK that will attract people if they can sell it.

BEE did release "White" in late 2019 which was really unfortunate timing due what was to follow. It didn't sound coked out or manic.

[quote] so I was kind of shocked when I first saw a picture of Ellis and didn't think he was even remotely beautiful and not even handsome. He looked a little bit like a pig, actually.

BEE was really cute, but I picture Clay to look like Spader who was just so perfectly cast and his look was all he needed for the part, though he played a fantastic dealer/pimp. I love BEE's work so The Shards has been fun, but when you start seeing the people who inspired LTZ in real life, it does ruin a little of the magic for me. I follow the pod, but don't follow his personal life on insta. For artists/authors/actors you really enjoy, the less you know them personally, the better.

[quote]For artists/authors/actors you really enjoy, the less you know them personally, the better.

I think Madonna is the ultimate example of this.

r154 Lowe wasn't the one filming her. Weren't there two incidents of low having sex on video. One with the 16 year old where the teenager secretly set it up and the threesome with adults. Since it wasn't his video he wouldn't be liable for the charges. No way wod Lowe have every released such a vid. He wasn't charged because the consent rules in the state made it legal as long as the parents could consent. He paid off the parents and got their consent. That teenager got to have Rob's sexy dick in her pussy, everyone wins. Rob just sold his mansion a few years back for just under $50 million dollars.

Hi, Rob!

"American Psycho" was 100x better then this dull movie.

Wow, female 80s fashion was tragic. 20 year old girls going to parties dressed like 40 year old female news anchors with the suits, stockings, and big hair. Must have had to be there to appreciate whatever is going on with the clothing.No wonder everyone was doing drugs, I'd also be depressed.

Some decent acting. I hated the lead. Such a smug asshole. I can't remember if he's as annoying in the book.

r250 that movie introduced me to New Order. I was driving my parents somewhere last summer and played some of their songs and didn't realize my parents where minor fans of theres. I loved the music in that film.

I did end up cutting a line of coke with my Amex platinum card, in a club's bathroom, with coworkers a few years ago. I had to laugh how much I ended up recreating scenes from that film. Not that coke with coworkers in bathrooms is out of norm in many major cities.

r273 couldn't he have just set his son up with a hotel room or a motel room? Turning him out on the streets to do God knows what doesn't sounds like the answer since his son ended up hooking.

R310 Guess you cold look it up (or I could) but iirc all the girl did related to video-tape was take the tape from Rob's room when she left. How would she have set it up? She wasn't carrying a camera, there were no phones with cameras then. I think he said she lied about her age.

[quote]I don't understand how gay guys don't get it. Common refrain on DL - no one (man or woman) who isn't model looking can ever get men or women. It simply doesn't work that way. Yes, attractive people get laid. But plenty of less-than-models rack up the hook-ups. People really do have "energy" that attracts people and, obviously, guys have DICK that will attract people if they can sell it.

First of all he literally had a character in the book refer to his alter ego, the narrator, as "a beautiful boy". Of course less than atrractive people get laid. Nobody was saying that. But in the particular setting of the book (LA, movie-industry-adjacent), comsidering these are young college students, etc., a guy who looked like Bret might not have been the *most* likely to be getting it. Nobody said he couldn't get laid.

Julian's relationship with his father makes no sense. In June, his father his proud of him and giving him seed money to start his record label. By December, Dad's cut him off completely and even forbidden him the house. That's a pretty sharp fall in 6 months (really 4, as apparently Julian was fine when Clay left for school in September). Julian's confrontation with his dad sounds like a father confronting his 40-year-old junkie son with a decades-long history of family betrayals, not a fucked-up 18-year-old who was apparently functional 6 months ago.

R316 He was jealous Julian was fucking his brother.

This article explains the straight-washing of the film and also how the producers sanitized it to become a conservative Reagan-era cautionary tale about drug use and played into gay panic with demonizing Julian's androgyny and bisexuality and even killing him off (a typical cliche). Completely different from BEE's original social commentary on class privilege, capitalism and moral nihilism. Julian is a recurring character in BEE's books.

It's similar to The Color Purple which in the novel made clear about Celie's sexual orientation being a lesbian and had more a clear condemnation of white supremacy, organized religion, colonialism, misogyny and patriarchy. But of course Hollywood producers had to make it more palatable to a mostly white suburban audience and focused more on Celie overcoming her struggle rather than including the social commentary.

I never thought much of him when I was younger, but RDJ was beautiful in such a distinctive way back then. Not quite feminine, but something soft and curvaceous about him. He's handsome now but much more masculine seeming. As a teenager, Caravaggio could have painted him. He was perfect for Julien and I agree that the character was rewritten to punish him for not sticking to the sexually straight and narrow path.

R312, people dressed up more back then than they do now. And please point me to the fashion masterpieces of the current crop of Bright Young Things.

The hair aside, the 80s were an eye-bath after the excessive kitsch of the 70s.

I really don't think Hollywood films, TV shows, fashion magazines or music videos are a good representation of fashion trends. They are usually depicting a fantasy version of life and celebrities, models and artists have money and time to look like that. Look at candid photos of people in the 80s, they dressed just as plain and boring as people do today. Small towns especially tend to be behind of the fashion trends.

Less Than Zero should be remade as a limited series, faithful to the book. The Reagan-era politics and social mores were really laid on thick in the movie.

R321, maybe it's just nostalgia, but I see a lot more creativity and personality in those kids than I see now. True, I'm not hanging out with teenagers, so maybe I'm missing a lot of cultural groups.

R323 I agree. I think there is more creativity too because people had a lot less to work with. Also thanks to no 24/7 cable and later social media to dictate tastes. I think less money was spent on designer brands and imitating celebrities back then because people had more active social lives and less need to look perfect and polished.

Celebrities weren't in your face 24/7 back then. Outside of their work, you only saw them in magazines and months would go by where you didn't see them at all. Celebs were able to live a private life and come and go from the public eye much more easily in those days.

R324 I remember dressing up very carefully to go out - hair product, suit and tie or some outfit that seemed fashionable then. But yeah, most of the time it was much more casual.

And the Paris Hilton slut-storm had yet to crest. The early 2000's were far uglier than the '80s.

BTW, as no one has addressed the OP's question - if Spader and RDJ did not fuck on this shoot, they both missed out.

I suspect they didn't because when two boys who look like that fuck in the 1980s, they turn into a Ferrari at the end.

[quote] Celebrities weren't in your face 24/7 back then.

Thank God. Can you imagine Bette Davis posting selfies from her bathroom?

R321, that was good, but it missed a whole jondra: Preppies.

Oh and the deadhead kids.

I remember Tretorns and rugby/polo shirts and khaki shorts and topsiders and all that.

R285 if you're interested, I'll post my Reddit post using his year book to figure out who was who in real life. The guy who Matt Kellner is based on is still very much alive, and living in the Valley. Hot-ass Tom Wright sells insurance. Haha.

R330 yes please

R330 - Yes! Do you have the Buckley yearbook with the float that they worked on? Was there even a death in their friend group? Was the Trawler Manson or the Night Stalker?

Kids in the late 60s and most of the70s were all about being natural, rebelling against dressing up and the hair styles of the 50s to the mid-60s. Girls wore peasant blouses, jeans, minskirts and cutoffs, boys wore t shirts and jeans, cutoffs, cords, whatever. Nobody had hair styles per se and there wasn't a lot of jewelry, especially on guys. Dying the hair was almost unheard of, it was uncool. The 80s were a retun to dressing up (not so much in casual situations, but for going out, to clubs, parties, etc. The jackets, skinny ties, shoes, etc. were NOT like what adults wore and grew out of New Wave and London-NYC street fashion. It was under-30 fashion. So were the dresses, makeup, and hair on girls.

R332 Bret claimed that there was a "In Memoriam" page in the yearbook with three students having died. Not true.

Below is the thread with pictures of Matt Kellner, Tom Wright, Susan Reynolds, Debbie Schaffer, Terry Schaffer, Liz Schaffer, Bret, and Matt Kellner's mom and dad.

So, just looked it up, The Buckley School is a private school K-12 in Sherman Oaks. (I never heard his podcast.) In Less Than Zero, does he say the characters went to a prep school? I only remember him mentioning "high school" and I assumed they went to a public high school. Am I wrong about that?

No, the school in the book LTZ is based on Buckley for sure.

It's a long time since I read i. I wasn't saying it was not based on Buckley, I just thought in the book he doesn't ever specify that it's a prep school. If he did I guess I don't remember.

Didn't Danny Bonaduce say that LTR was basically spilling all the secrets of students who went to Crossroads High School, another elite private LA school?

Really, R338? I'll have to re-watch it. I wonder who Gollum was.

Nope, I was wrong. I found this in a blogpost about LTR. It WAS Buckley:

[quote]“In the former child actor Danny Bonaduce’s 2002 autobiography, Random Acts of Badness, Bonaduce notes the striking similarity between the fictional high school in Less Than Zero and the now-relocated California Preparatory High School The Buckley School in Encino, California, where Bonaduce, recording artist Michael Jackson, film actor Christian Brando, and other children of wealth and celebrity went to school together. In commenting on the novel, Bonaduce notes, ‘When the book Less Than Zero came out, all my classmates were pissed. Not because it was an exact portrayal of our school – but because we failed to get any royalties.'”

And ha-ha R339, ya got me on that one.

I would take anything Bonaduce said with a grain of salt about the size of the iceberg that sank the Titanic.

Thank you so much for posting, R332. Maybe it was the times or the styling, but none of the characters lived up to my expectations. I was picturing Susan Reynolds to be like an 80's Amber Heard in The Informers. They all look so matronly - they guys are good looking but not next level like BEE describes.

After reading the link I. R318 s post, I don’t think I can ever watch the movie anymore.

You're that impressionable, R344?

R343 I could see the Susan Reynolds girl looking pretty amazing in real life. Tom Wright is way hot. Debbie Schaffer looks pretty much exactly as I pictured.

Now that I know that Debbie Schaffer was Blair, I had higher expectations, R346. Blair is my favorite character in LTZ, the book. There is something about her that gets the whole game. Her gay dad hitting on twinks is totally realistic. She seems like the smartes,t most actualized, and hottest character in the book., Who were Trent and Daniel?

R347 I delved much more into The Shards relationship with reality. LTZ is much more fictionalized. BUT, I think that Bret's buddy Jeff Taylor might be the basis for Trent. Of course, we know that Bret is Clay, and Blair is Julie Foreman. We know that one of Bret's friends was paid to either give or get hand jobs from a member of The Billionaire Boys Club, but that's as far as it went. LTZ made a MUCH bigger deal out of it.

In this picture, we see Taylor, Bret, and the third guy is Jon Zeiderman. This was actually confirmed for me by Bret himself. There is no caption in the yearbook. JZ might be Trent, or maybe he's even part of Robert Mallory.

[quote] We know that one of Bret's friends was paid to either give or get hand jobs from a member of The Billionaire Boys Club.

Do you remember who this friend is? I thought it was one of the Buckley students and was the character loosely based on Julian. I think the older guy that fronted the BBC was Ron Levin who ironically was played by Kevin Spacey. They all went to Flippers together in a limo and did coke at Ron's place.

Rips house for sale

Despite all the renovations, that place still has a terminal case of the 1980s.

That triangular balcony is terrifying. I thought so when I watched the movie, and it's clear that wasn't done by mere camera angles. It IS terrifying.

Where's Rip's hot tub and floaty phone.

R351 What's terrifying about it?

Modern architecture tends to look dated within 10 years. The more focus on looking cutting-edge, the worst it will age.

I don't hate it, but if it must be painted white, that Stormtrooper white isn't it. There's better, warmer whites. Those guard rails probably should be updated.

He was more than just arrested, R96. He spent over a year in prison and reportedly was brutalized.

Anyone else think it’s a weird coincidence that Julian’s downfall was in Palm Springs and that’s also where RDJ was arrested on Thanksgiving 2000? He was all alone in a hotel in PS… on Thanksgiving. I almost wonder if he went there to kill himself.

R357, I could see that. How depressing.

I know a lot of people think he's an asshat, but I feel sorry for him in a way I don't for plenty of other Hollywood wackos.

Rip's house doesn't have a pool, which is essential, especially if you are pimping out twinks. I like Clay's glass, mid century house and pool.

I think Julian turned up in a lounge chair beside Rip’s pool.

Rip's house does have a pool. Not a big one, but it's there.

You are right, R359. I had a look at the listing. It's a little east, off Laurel Canyon. I'd prefer 90069, but I would still take it. Rip would have lived in the bird streets.

I meant you were right, R361 about the pool.

.,.!

So you get this 4M (?) property.

Then what?

LA is such a soulless, shiftless, sinister place.

[quote] LA is such a soulless, shiftless, sinister place

It is and it isn't. I don't think it is soulless - LA always is what it is and never pretends to be anything than LA. I really like SF, but that feels soulless with all the aspie tech people. I do think it's shiftless and I do think there are probably horrific things that we'll never know. There is good stuff too. The people are friendly, the weather is warm, the beach, the desert, and life is generally good.

Here is "Matt Kellner's" home in Encino. And the pool he was found floating naked in.

LA was never meant to be. Stolen land, stolen water. If it feels wrong to you, you are right. It is wholly artificial since its inception, and I say this as a third generation gringo Angeleno.

Camera steals your soul.

R353, I find that balcony terrifying because it looks like it's going to collapse into the canyon below at any second. Its odd structure was used to great effect in the film: When Julian is asleep on the lounge chair at the very apex of the balcony, he really does look like someone who is, both literally and figuratively, about to fall off a cliff.

I bet that house was chosen as a location in the film entirely because of that odd, dangerous-looking balcony.

No you didn't, R367!!! I though BEE said Havenhurst on the pod, but that makes sense. Can you pull Debbie Schaffer's and Susan Reynolds? Thank you for sharing!

[quote] LA was never meant to be. Stolen land, stolen water. If it feels wrong to you, you are right. It is wholly artificial since its inception, and I say this as a third generation gringo Angeleno.

I'm a first generation gringo Angeleno and I don't feel that way, but I do fantasize about finding someplace better all the time. Except I can't seem to find it and I've searched. I always come back. It's home.

I thought Matt Kellner lived in a separate pool house that was steps down from the house. Do I have that right? This house must be part of the fiction.

Las Vegas must have a similar feel: A desert mirage that was built on broken dreams and stolen water.

Las Vegas truly feels soulless.

No matter where you go, there you are.

R374, Las Vegas is full of people that got driven out of someplace else. Mostly because they’re addicts, scam artists, or more recently, can’t buy a house in California.

It does have a negative energy to it. Especially late at night. When I used to drive around LA at night in the 70s-80s, even nineties, there was a feeling of busyness, but in a good way. Like everyone was going somewhere fun. Now it just feels heavy. More of a sense of struggle and weariness.

Coming back to Vegas, you’re very aware there’s two types of people, locals and reckless drunks that want to act like fools, get in trouble and go home after a few days. Once you get past the Strip, a lot of traffic falls off. It’s lacking soul.

When the economy got really bad during Covid, a lot of casino workers got laid off. I heard a few comments here and there about “too bad” but no one really cared about those people, who were in long lines to get food. And as long as the economy didn’t recover, they’d never work again. There was very little compassion for them. More like, they should just find a job and quit freeloading, when there was nothing. It’s still more of a Republican outlook, no matter how it votes. I can’t wait to get out of here.

I never found LA soulless. The first time I ever visited, I was thinking HOLLYWOOD and that there would be widespread, identifiable glamour. You could see a bit, but it was nothing like that. What surprised me that it was such a work-day-town. It's not everybody partying, but like anywhere, people getting up and going to work and fitting in whatever else they can in between. Obviously, there's a subset of the population who are living the "LA life" but I didn't find those people that numerous or that pervasive. Also, I had a friend from college who is from LA and a previous coworker who is from LA, who both moved back to LA -- I had met them in the Midwest. I visited both on multiple occasions and REALLY got to see everyday, normal LA - spent time with their families who had lived there for multiple generations. One was from a pretty nice part of South Central (it's not all bad) and lived in Inglewood. The other lived in some average neighborhood in the Valley. I've always liked LA and thought it had a lot to offer, but I know it's easy to make those judgments of cities when you're just an intermittent visitor and don't have to deal with the lot of the negatives or the "grind" of living there.

There's this 90s gay-themed film called "Speedway Junky" which stars DL favs JTT and Jesse Bradford that takes place in Las Vegas and it depicted LV as being morally bankrupt wasteland filled with junkies, prostitutes, dealers and pimps who are all lonely and social rejects. It makes sense given the city is basically a tourist trap that appeals to the poor looking to win big and it's in the middle of the desert. I can't not see that as depressing.

I never bought LA as soulless. Maybe it is for the white upper-class circles of celebrity children and old money or the wannabe actors, models, musicians and influencers who come from anytown, USA with dreams. But LA is one of the diverse metropolitan areas with a large Mexican, Vietnamese, Japanese, African-American, Louisiana Creole, Armenian, Jewish and Middle Eastern population. Many people actually describe it as a collection of small towns and much more blue-collar than the image portrays. I imagine once you drop the Hollywood expectations, you can make friends there and find your own path.

I rewatched most of this last night. The thing that really kills it for me is that there’s this great resentment of Clay for ABANDONING Blair and Julian. As if he’s their only friend. After high school, people go to different colleges. It’s not some personal betrayal.

Also the timeline. All that crazy shit happened in six months? Julian developed such a bad drug habit, had been to rehabs, a few cycles of getting sober and relapsing in six months?

As an adult, I also sympathized with Julian’s father. Addicts are insidiously manipulative. I didn’t see any of Julian’s redeeming qualities. Unless you consider a mild talent for banter a redeeming quality.

It's actually 4 months, since Clay didn't know about any of Julian's serious drug problems when he left for college in September.

R369 Ok, thanks. I think it looks a little steep but even though I don't like heights I thought terrifying was unusual. I don't think it's on a cliff, even, it's on a hillside? But just curious why you reacted that way, not saying you shouldn't.

I actually don't mind heights that much, R381, but something about that balcony bothers me. Maybe it's just the incredibly sharp point it comes to, maybe it's just at certain angles it looks so precarious. In any event, it was a great choice for the scene where Julian is beginning to spiral and sleeping off his high at Rip's place.

The first time I saw this movie, I think I made out with some nameless, hot hillbilly.

My friend (who was the spawn of a prominent 80s Senator) talked me into it.

How 80s!

R383, you sound like a pretentious idiot and what about you being a dumb whore makes it 80s? Read a book, asshole.

Whereas your gutter language makes you sound terribly erudite, trash bag r384.

[quote]GenX had that in spades, however.

You misspelled my name, bitch.