Joan Collins on THE Guiding Light

mmm....the Pendulous One has such long fingers

Jill Farren Phelps joins Alan in the Locher Room. It's funny to hear her talk about "FOJs," and interesting to hear her accept blame for the biggest mistake of her career, and talk about a similar mistake she was not responsible for. It's easily the best Locher interview I have seen. And no technical problems.

Miss Locher is so annoying. He doesn't let people finish their sentences, constantly interrupting like an over-eager fangurl. And the way he gushes over GL and ATWT actors is cringey.

R2,

What did she acknowledge as her "biggest mistake"? I don't think I could stand listening to her, so I don't plan on watching.

She regretted the whole Maureen Bauer death. She said that she loved Ellen Parker and thinks she's an extraordinary actress, but she needed to do something to shake up the canvass, as the show was showing its age when she came on board and needed a jolt. She underestimated the fans' emotional attachment to Maureen. I always thought Parker was fired to pay for Deas's salary, but that wasn't mentioned. She claims zero responsibility for killing off Frankie Frame, saying that decision was totally out of her control.

I thought the interview was OK. But nothing in there she hasn't really said with Logan before.

The whole "who me" act re Beverlee's departure is just revisionist history, because Bev spoke to her about her unhappiness on the show for months prior to her departure.

As time goes by I guess it's easy to forget or get mixed up. "We had to recast with Marj and just get her in there right away to play that part!" Um, there was a year gap between Bev leaving and Marj's arrival.

I guess it's hard to ask people to be really honest about what happened, because you might never get hired again, and even at an advanced age you might still want, or have, to work.

Alan Locher was kissing her ass every inch of the way, though.

Would have loved to hear what JFP thought of the end of GL, how Wheeler handled budget, etc.

I thought she came off well. One thing she mentioned that the ratings at AW were high during her tenure. I don't recall that. The show seemed to be dwell perpetually near the bottom of the ratings from 1980 and on.

Imagine.

R7 She raised the demos when she was there, for sure. Household ratings stayed the same but the 18-49 female viewers were higher when she left.

It's sad that none of the NY soaps are left. Not to knock the West coast shows, but the East coast shows, especially in their heyday, were able to draw from really amazing theater actors who could elevate the often mundane or ludicrous writing. I mean, for instance, OLTL for much its last 30 years was silly, ridiculously OTT melodrama, but you had theater-trained actors like Slezak and Strasser give nuanced performances that made the material somewhat believable.

What are the big soaps that never EP-ed? ATWT, AMC, Days, B&B. Any others?

R11, um those all had EPs?

^ I meant that JFP never EP-ed.

How dare you whores walk away from me. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!!?!?

Sorry, Miss MV5-BZWI5-NGYw-Ym-Yt-NWM0-Yi00-ODY3-LWJj-ZDct-ZGMy-NTlm-Nm-I5-Yj-U0-Xk-Ey-Xk-Fqc-Gde-QXVy-MDMx-Mj-Qw.

One thing about the JFP interview I found offputting was her discussion about the place of music and music cues in scenes. She said that music should let the viewer know how to feel. Intelligent shows let viewers decide for themselves and don't manipulate viewers into feeling an emotion. I just found that statement to be very condescending.

I wonder if Derwin fucked her or Angela Shapiro.

She was almost giddy when she talked about him.

Derwin hasn't aged well. I was binging on season 1 of "Bosch" in which he's a semi-regular, and he looks like a wizened old man.

I'd still let him stick it in. The whole way.

When is Alan interviewing ME?!? He’s already had ole Lucy on three timea

If Queen Locher interviews Grant Aleksander or Ellen Dolan one more time, I'm going to bust a gasket. The way he gushes over the "The Guiding Light" and "As the World Turns" actors is pretty nauseating.

Which FoJ's did she talk about?

There were rumors Kale Brown was more than a "friend" with her.

I watched the interview. She was very charming and hindsight has given her some new perspective on some of her choices. Interesting that Y&R was such a difficult experience for her. Not shocked by that at all.

I don't buy this 'I didn't know the fans loved Maureen.'

She knew. She didn't care.

Jill was at the show for well over a year when they decided to kill Maureen off. She didn't know?

The show had lost Beverlee, Kimberley, and Sherry Stringfield and then you CHOOSE to fire Maureen/Ellen?

No. The story failed because Claire Ramsey (Susan Pratt) didn't immediately come back to look after her daughter Michelle. Instead, we got Buzz.

The show did not fill the maternal void left by Maureen; it should have -- bring back Elvera Roussel as Hope.

She explained herself well. She was looking to reset the show and she was right, the "A team" had left and the "B team" needed something to shakes things up. Maybe the answer wasn't killing Maureen, but sometimes you have to go with the moment. Life is filled with mistakes, made at the time, that didn't seem like it was going to be a mistake. You learn, you grow, and you move on.

JFP said that OLTL was her most difficult experience. She didn't say why, but Slezak has said that some of the guys gave her a really hard time. Assumed she was alluding to Phil Carey, Bob Woods and Clint Ritchie.

It sounds like they thought she was playing favorites.

I remember when JFP was at OLTL, with McTavish as HW, she praised McT to the hilt, calling her a wonderful writer who knows how to pull in the demos. That right there told me all I need to know about JFP. I think this is around the time that Felicia Minei Behr, who was overseeing ABC daytime at the time, royally pissed off JFP by calling OLTL "unwatchable."

RumorMill said La Collins had problems with lines.....Soap Opera Weekly was very dishy in the 90s and early 00s....I remember when they put Genie Francis on the cover as the next OLTL Sarah Buchanan (whoops)...

[quote] One thing about the JFP interview I found offputting was her discussion about the place of music and music cues in scenes. She said that music should let the viewer know how to feel. Intelligent shows let viewers decide for themselves and don't manipulate viewers into feeling an emotion. I just found that statement to be very condescending.

When the soaps were still live and music was provided by organ and/or piano, directors generally left it up to the organist to decide the "mood" of the music. Music then was mostly used to denote scene changes and commercial breaks. Directors gave the pianist or organist the script for the day with a mark where music was required and left the musician to play something appropriate to the dialog and the mood of the scene. Music wasn't used then to elicit emotions from the audience.

Is Vetsoapfan still upset that Miss Locher didn’t ask JFP why THE was dropped from TGL?

I wonder if JFP and Bridget Dobson exchange holiday cards.

[quote]Derwin hasn't aged well…he looks like a wizened old man.

Thanks, MADD.

The Locher Room is having some decent guests - JFP, Nancy Curlee.....

.....but then also is doing a show with just the child actors from ATWT. LOL! Though the kid that played Parker is now a handsome young guy. But they got the little chubbolini that was the first kid Luke Snyder.

[quote]I think this is around the time that Felicia Minei Behr, who was overseeing ABC daytime at the time, royally pissed off JFP by calling OLTL "unwatchable."

Well, you know what we think of Felicia Mini-Bear.

R30, did your neighbor write for soaps when they were live? Your neighbor must be even older than I am!

While JFP and MMT's OLTL wasn't my favorite rendition of the show—that was the one in which Jean kept Dorian in that plexiglass cage—I did find it compelling viewing. It was pure plot. I didn't care so much about the characters, really, as I did about finding out what happens next. It was as well-oiled a storytelling machine as Marland's ATWT, and since ATWT had turned to shit, I was keen to watch each new episode as it rolled out.

The Lindsey / Sam / Nora / Bo quadrangle was my favorite storyline. I was so glad to see Kale Browne (FOJ, whom she mentioned by name in the Locher Room). Among the younger characters was Tim Gibbs (FOJ, not mentioned by name) as Kevin Buchanan, a new Joey Buchanan (Donny Jeffcoat), and the glorious looking Will Rappaport (Jason Shane Scott).

And then, of course, Spoilerina (Mimi Torchin, SOW) happened the same weekend as soldiers came to Florida to either kidnap or rescue Elio Gonzales. Since I now knew Will was going to escape going to Statesville Prison when the train taking him there crashed somewhere west of Llanview, I was free to watch the actual suspense show: What Will Happen Next to Elian?

And I did watch the Elian show. I didn't need to watch OLTL the following week, as it was all plot at the time, and I knew what was going to happen. And I never watched it again. Once I got out of the habit, it didn't feel like the right thing to do, as SOW had decided it was going to be the main storytelling engine of daytime drama.

I forgot that Jill alluded to the issues with the Rappaports. Bob Woods and Hillary Smith both hated the Rappaport story - well, the Kale Browne part of it, we know HBS loved Cat Hickland.

R34 That perv Soapsuds is already whacking off over the Parker kid from ATWT. Gross gross gross! A perverted old man jerking it over a young kid is disgusting.

For Christ's sake it's been almost 30 years. Ellen Parker won an Emmy. She did the best work of her time on the show during that week. We saw extraordinary performances from Rachel Miner,Peter Simon and Maureen Garrett and Tina Sloan. People who had been on the back burner for years got to show up. JFP owned up and said she made a mistake and apologized. BTW just to clarify its a not a real person who was killed off. Move on.

R40 I don't think the feelings fans have about this are about Maureen, per se, or the story.

It's the feeling that GL stopped being GL around this time (or not long after) or at least took a hard hit without a matriarch, losing its more traditional feel, and over the years, fans have linked those two.

R41 I feel exactly the same way. My point is the show has been gone for 12 years. And JFP has said yes I was wrong. And people still want to roast her over the spitfire. People want story and then get mad when the story doesnt meet their expectations. Btw they did bring a matriarch on. A Bauer. Meta.

We lost Maureen, but we got Nadine as matriarch of the Cooper family, which was being steered by the show to be the core family. She was a little ditzy and quirky and definitely flawed, but she made for a 1,000x more interesting matriarch than Boreen. Jean Carol was a much more energetic and interesting actress to watch than Ellen "Snore" Parker. And don't forget, they did bring back Meta a few years later as Bauer matriarch.

Bringing on Mary Stuart was nice, but sadly too little too late. Had they brought her on in 1994 as originally proposed, as Hannah Bauer, that would have been nice. Meta was on for about a minute before poor Mary shuffled off this mortal coil.

Vanessa somewhat filled the matriarch role in later years.

Fans are very specific about blaming a producer or writer but they have no idea, and never will, about how things work. The networks and sponsors make so many of the decisions, and the EP/writers are basically there to pick their battles and push back.

Lol at the name Boreen. She sure was dull. If I was in that focus group, I’d have agreed that the show should lose Boreen. JFP did Parker a favor and gave her great material.

R44 Mary Stuart and Meta Bauer were on from 96-02. I would hardly call 6 years a minute.

Are you actually surprised that people take their stories so seriously and personally?

Dame Joan probably did 'GL' in hopes of getting a Guest Star Emmy, and/or for a quick paycheck.

Mary Stuart may have **made appearances** between 1996 and 2002, but those were not frequent all across that six year period.

She was featured somewhat frequently with Rick and Michelle/Danny circa 1997 or so, but not at other times, and there was a huge gap between appearances when she was sick.

Joan Collins came from scripted nighttime television where maybe you did a page or 2 a day. Daytime was having her 10-12 pages a day. She couldn't keep up with the pace and more or less said that.

I also wanted to say that some people on here act as if EP's work in a vacuum and I am glad that others are bringing up that its really at the behest of the network and they have to go thru so many hoops its rarely just up to them.

TGL stopped being TGL when they changed the show name to GL.

R49 according to IMDB she was on 351 episodes. Seems pretty frequent to me.

I also liked how JFP owned the fact that she likes high stakes drama. The bomb under bassinette was a great analogy. Soap fans say they want character driven, but they tune in for shootings and bombs and the high stakes stuff. I was surprised that she enjoyed working on AW as much as she did. I'm not surprised that she and Linda Dana are good friends.

Instead of dying, Maureen could have been severely injured in the crash-a coma or paralysis. Then we she got out of the hospital, she could have filed for divorce from Ed and sued for custody of Michelle,, and forced Holly and Lillian to testify in court.. Ed could have asked Mike to be his attorney (played by Jed Allan since Don Stewart was difficult and JFP loved Jed). Ross could have served as Maureen’s attorney. THAT would have been interesting drama.

^not for the key demos, it wouldn't have, r54.

And to the poster upthread who said that people claim they want character driven drama but tune in for the stunts, I totally agree. JFP once said that sometimes you give the viewer what they wanted (character driven drama) and that sometimes you give them what they didn't know they wanted (the stunts).

Tangle Hill was a "pushed" character. Big fanfare and little payoff. Much like when Beth Ehlers went to AMC.

The A-Team that GL had lost before or soon after Jill came on included Reva, Phillip, Josh, Beth, Rick, Chelsea.

She still had Alexandra, Vanessa, Roger, Mindy, Billy, Ross, Ed -- hardly "B" players.

If she wanted an "A" team, then she should have rehired Zimmer circa 1993. She was ready to come back then.

That was definitely the B team. Alexandra and Roger were plot stirrers, they weren't leads.

R44, that's true about there's always more to the story, but were P&G execs and CBS execs really forcing Jill to hire all her old SB pals -- Marcy Walker, Marj, Bunny, Christopher Norris, Justin Deas.

Deas ate more scenery than any four soap divas.

r57, none of those "B" players were part of the supercouples (Josh/Reva, Philip/Beth) that were the face of the show and that people tuned in for. Ed and Ross were hardly front-burner characters.

Doug Marland was the gold standard. Sure, he knew how to rejuvenate a show, but he also paid attention to its history.

He brought Susan Stewart back to ATWt and the subsequent Kim/Bob/Susan story was one of soaps' best.

He didn't kill off Kim and then give Bob a younger wife.

Ed and Boreen were hardly A team material. I always wanted Fat Ed back on TGL.

ATWT, AW, and GL were basically sister shows, and I never got why ATWT kept many of their long-time vets around, while AW and GL couldn't chase them away fast enough. AW I can sort of understand, since it was low rated and TPTB felt the need to reinvent it in order to find new viewers. ATWT and GL were pretty much getting similar ratings and demos, but ATWT, at least on the surface, respected its history and lineage much more than GL did.

Fat Ed was a dud in bed. Just ask Rita.

he was wonderful.

[quote] according to IMDB

IMDB = whatever people key in, just like Wikipedia. She was not on GL for 300 episodes. I would be surprised if she appeared in over 100 during those six years.

R59 For sure, she did have her FOJs and she sort of explained that. And Buzz did eat the show.

That was the bad thing about GL in the 90s, and early 00s, especially. It didn't have the great bench it had earlier w/Curlee et al and a lot of so called "B" characters stepping up.

So when it did get a hit of some kind, it drove it into the ground. Buzz was interesting and a kick in the ass at first, and then he ate the show. Matt and Vanessa were fresh at first, and then every fucking second of every fucking minute of the show was them, turning Vanessa into a simp, which she'd never been. Michelle and Danny, ditto, just played to DEATH.

My comment doesn't apply in every scenario, but we do miss a lot of the nuances, and then fans just blame the visible people. e.g. JFP killed AW, or Frankie Frame, Wheeler killed GL, etc.

R67 = R44

They made Vanessa boring. Vanessa should have been something similar to a Donna Love type character.

R60, but "A" people did Jill bring on?

Marcy was a dud.

Eve ...Hillary Edson is beautiful (she was an extra at the prom with the four Muskateers), but didn't emerge as an A player.

Marj, god bless her, was never Alexandra.

The show had Harley and Mallet as its emerging super-couple but they were already on the air.

Who doesn't know that a soap opera needs a matriarch? That Chairta's Bert was the face of GL for decades and, all things considered, Ellen's Maureen BAUER, was a highly satisfactory replacement to fill that matriarchal void.

The suggestion above about Maureen living, fighting her way back, taking Ed to court -- forcing Holly and Lillian to testify. Then, BANG Claire shows up! She wants custody too.

Then do a paternity tease that maybe Fletcher is Michelle's dad; he went on to father Meg...clearly his tubes untied or whatever the expression is.

Jill fired Ellen to free up money to bring on Deas; within a few years, fans were calling the show "Santa Light".

^ Charita

Jill should have brought Fat Ed back.

[R5] Ostensibly it was a focus group thing, but the primary motivating factor in firing Ellen Dollan was to secure a salary for Justin Deas, for whom she had a hard-on. I don't expect her to have mentioned any of that in the recent interview, especially when most people believe the focus group story. And the two things aren't mutually exclusive, either.

^ Sorry, Ellen Parker.

Deas’ hiring (and Joan’s hiring) brings up an interesting question.

Has any show benefitted, ratings wise, from hiring a well known actor-either a popular actor from another soap or from prime time?

Certainly they get publicity from it , but do the ratings rise?

I remember, Santa Barbara had an ad campaign in 1986/87 or so, to let people know their favorite actors were now on SB. They also hired popular actors like Marcy Walker, Jack Wagner and Terry Lester and the ratings didn’t improve. GH brought Mary Beth Evans and Stephen Nichols onto the show In the 90s, and I don’t think it raised the ratings. Linda Dano was brought onto OLTL with great fanfare in 1999, and it didn’t impact the ratings.

It doesn’t seem to have an effect beside publicity.

Shows will sometimes get a bump when a popular actor from another show shows up on another soap, but it's rare and usually doesn't hold. Take George and Jacquie moving from AW to OLTL. Jacquie was more successful because A) she wasn't a crazy mess like George and B) she was fucking the boss, but still.

Shows tend to get a sustained bump when a popular character, played by the original actor, returns to a show.

But casting other show's rejects, just for the ratings, is not worth it in the long run. If it's organic and a character that fits into the canvas and is not stunt casting then it can work very well.

Love r54's idea for Maureen being injured, not killed in car crash. THAT would have been great story. I would have been glued to my TV for it. However, it wouldn't have freed up the money to hire Justin Deas.

Small correction: talk of bringing Mary Stuart on as Hannah Bauer started in 1987, soon after Search for Tomorrow was cancelled. That was during the time period when Johnny Bauer and Lacy Bauer were on with fuzzy connections to the existing Bauers. Presumably Hannah would have explained those connections better.

R69 Anna Stuart's temporary stint for the pregnant Maeve, turned out to her audition for Donna. Anna got to be super bitchy for a long time, while poor Maeve was reduced to a glorified day player as Vanessa Lewis.

Joan Collins did great as Alexandra, and supposedly she snubbed Zimmer, who no doubt was the source of catty bits about JC. Aleksander, Deas, Chappel and Raines raved about her.

GL should have brought Mary on as Trudy Bauer.

^It’s TGL

R75 I loved Stephen Nicholas on GH. It didn't work when he was paired with Mary Beth Evans on that (her character was useless), but loved his pairing with Genie Francis' Laura.

The show forgot about Trudy Bauer long before Mary Stuart was around. She's not even mentioned in the Papa Bauer funeral episode that's on YT, but they did bring back Ellen Demming as Meta.

Lady Locher and JFP were gushing over John Bolger, Ron Raines, and Marj Dusay, saying basically that they were amazing replacements. Bolger is a good actor, but he's no GA. Raines never really captured the essence of Alan, and Marj's Alex was like a totally different character.

They also gushed over Justin Deas while the fan chat off to the side had comments about how bad he was and questioning why she let him eat the show. Total self-loving bullshit while the greater audience doesn't agree (and never did). JFP went to the right place for a butt-kissing interviewer who rah-rah's the show like he's still employed by it.

Aging Michelle and putting her with QUEENY actor did GL no favors.....Paul Anthony Stewart......I think he would have had a bigger career if he came out...Same with Chandler and Van....ALL of them got bad advice and you can see none of them are rolling in MONEY or MOVIES...

This guy is not Morley Safer and he's not doing 60 Minutes. These are pure subject friendly, softball interviews (like a Trumper on Fox News). If you're looking for hard-hitting interviews, Mr. Lochner is not the place for it. I'm not really sure what people are expecting from this guy.

[quote] Mr. Lochner i

Oh, dear!

I am an old time GLer and I loved Maureen, loved Marland's GL, loved Pam's GL, loved the Curlee era.

I liked Buzz in the beginning. I like Justin Deas. I thought his arrival was great for Harley, for Nadine. I enjoyed Buzz and Nadine's story. I enjoyed Buzz and Jenna, for a time.

What I did NOT like was after Harley left. The whole Buzz on the roof business, bringing on Lucy, just giving in to his shoutyness and scenery chewing.

I never deeply felt the Reva Ate The Show energy so many others did, but I SURE felt it with Buzz/Justin.

Jill came off okay and even a smidge likable in her locher room; I've just never enjoyed watching any show she produced.

The way that fans pick and choose grievances against one regime while letting others slide is interesting to me. Everybody still wants to hunt JFP down for killing Maureen, but then those same fans can laugh about the clone like it’s the most fun they’ve ever had watching GL. I’d lay GL’s death A LOT more at the hands of Paul Rauch and his reign of terror for six horrendous years than I would at JFP’s. He and his perv tendencies and hangups on full display did a lot more damage and chased away the audience to irreparable depths.

Justin Deas had ZERO chemistry with everyone he was paired with.---and the woman were always OUT OF HIS LEAGUE.... Jenna. Reva (!!),, Alex, OLIVIA!!.....The writers thought they had George Clooney and that all women wanted him and they were wrong......VIDEO LINK of the BAD ACTING of Justin Deas...

R91 This I agree with. Even when he started he was never attractive IMO and as an actor he was just too over-the-top for me. Any entertainment value was cancelled out by Deas’ arm flailing and spitting and openly chewing gum in his scene partner’s face.

Maybe if they hadn’t killed her off, all that other stuff would not have happened.

JFP talked about loosing the A-listers in 1990-91 with the departure of Reva, Josh, Phillip, Beth and Rick.

Then in 1993 when Santa Barbara ended and Kim Zimmer finished her run as Jodie Walker, she wanted to come back to GL and JFP didn't want her back.

But what was the deal with Grant Aleksander? In Oct. 1993, he joined All My Children as Alec McIntyre, ultimately paired opposite Kelly Ripa. Why did he go to AMC rather than back to GL? Did he express interest in returning to GL but JFP turned him down, as she did Zimmer? Or did he just want to experience a different soap?

Some of you soap insiders likely know.

R94 = In the 90s the daytime actors had more choices (a dozen soaps) and also budgets were much larger and shows would pay well established actors a decent paycheck...Fiona Hutchinson left OLTL (over a pay dispute) and GL snapped her up. Rick Herbst left DAYS and GL snapped him up as Alan Michael. Sometimes the actor hates their boss (read Kim Zimmers book). Sometimes it's a chance to play a new role. ...VIDEO = Cutie Carl T. Evans---who probably regrets quitting GL every day of his life....

It's ironic Marj Dusay took her place considering the [italic]Facts of Life[/italic] connection and Joan's rivalry with Charlotte Rae.

R90 I totally agree and then the mess that John Conboy left when Ellen Wheeler showed up. Its funny how all the woman EPs are blamed but you never hear about the crap that both Rauch and Conboy left the show in,

Oh yes we did, R97. You heard about nothing but that at that World of Soap Themes site run by that psycho who acted so controlling over material that wasn't even legally his in the first place.

[quote]site run by that psycho who acted so controlling over material that wasn't even legally his in the first place.

That's not fair. He was trying to protect the material so that people could continue to have access to it. Which is why it is all underground now.

The Papa Bauer funeral is a pretty remarkable episode of GL. GL was so earnest and family-oriented during this period, and that shone through the storylines and the dialogue. Very beautiful stuff.

[quote] That's not fair. He was trying to protect the material so that people could continue to have access to it. Which is why it is all underground now.

No, it's underground now because he's a selfish prick. There were plenty of other attempts to get old soap episodes online, and it seems by now YouTube, ironically, is the best source.

R101 That queen who ran WOST was a mess!

He wasn't a mess, just unprepared for the dark side of soap fandom. There were a lot of rude, entitled people on that site who ruined it for a lot of people who really love and would like access to this material.

[quote][R101] That queen who ran WOST was a mess!

I don't think he ever claimed to be gay, he just let being the webmaster of a soap fan site give him a sense of entitlement to act as though he was guarding the gold in Fort fucking Knox.

Wasn’t his name Brian? A nelly queen who got upset when youtube came along and made him useless.

Hardly useless, he had a great private collection. He didn't share even 1/4 of the material in had available on his site. He got more than a few cease and desist letters because of bitchy fans.

Every fandom has its dark side, even Disney fandom. But this guy had no business developing an attitude the way he did, and maybe then he would not have gotten flagged. He could always have started a YouTube, Vimeo, or DailyMotion channel, but he did not.

Meanwhile, the actual copyright holders don't seem to want to do much with them outside of whoever made the deal to let SFM syndicate [italic]The Doctors[/italic]. Why P&G didn't think of making a similar deal sooner is beyond me.

I got an amazing two-CD set of soap themes from WOST. I still break it out every once in a while.

[quote]But this guy had no business developing an attitude the way he did, and maybe then he would not have gotten flagged

He got flagged because of bitchy and vindictive fans. It was a like a storyline from one of the shows. "If you don't give me what I want, I'm going to fuck it up for you and everyone else." Brian wasn't perfect, but my God, they kept pushing him and pushing him. It would be one thing if it was just that site, but you see it repeat itself over and over again with this fanbase.

It's not like any of the content was actually his in the legal sense.

Bringing a name CAN help a show tremendous IF the writing is there.

I could never imagine McKinsey in a role other than Iris but Alexandra turned out to be a big favorite with viewers.

It has to be the writing. Look at what a big nothing burger Stafford's return as Phyllis has been. Bo-ring.

There's no story like her first go-around. "I'm MRS. Danny Romalotti. The MOTHER of Danny Romalotti JR."

Now, she's all I hate Sally! I want to own my own hotel! My lifelong dream! I like fucking Nick! Yeah, man!

No. Story.

Who WAS the WOST guy? I remember that site vaguely and then some huge kerfuffle about it.

There was also a great blogger, Snark Weighs In, who disappeared in a flash - POOF - and may no longer be alive.

R111 Not like I want to give Y&R any oxygen in this P&G thread, but that's been Y&R in a nutshell these last few years.

I've watched a few episodes of YR over the last year, and it was so tepid and dull it made those writer's strike/new production method shows at GL where Josh opened a jar of mayonnaise look like Reva In The Fountain as a comparison. Just very nothingness, all the time. They can't write characters or excite the actors, they're just writing an attitude on a Post It and taping it to an actor's back.

There was a soap blogger who died in a car accident. He had a bunch of old GL clips (little to nothing before the "the" went bye-bye, though).

I remember that person, R114. Ivan Kipling, or some variation of that name (an OLTL character), I think.

Apples and Rauches, R90

Paul and Jill had two totally different styles; I actually thought the Maureen death story was amazing and the acting and writing and dialogue and fallout were great soap.

Here's my problem with Jill. She didn't fire Ellen to shake things up or over the lack of A players. Whatever BS she was spinning on Locher Room. She wanted to free up money to bring her pal Deas on.

IF it were about Maureen's death, then here's what would have happened: Clarie (Susan Pratt) would have high tailed it back to Springfield and tried to get custody or reunite with Ed. Perfect set up for a Fletcher/Claire/Ed/Holly quadrangle and maybe explore Fletcher was Michelle's birth dad.

No Maureen means no Bauer matriarch. Jill and the writers could have brought Hope back and planted her in the Bauer house and be the talk to/supportive matriarch every show needs. Charita was that for years. Maureen became that. And when I saw bring Hope back I mean Elvera Roussel who would play the part more maternally. NOT Robin Mattson (ex-Hope) -- she should have schticked it up playing a combo of crazy Heather, over the top Gina, and bombastic Delia (RH).

Lillian more or less got a free ride after this affair, dissolving into the background pretty much. Why'd it take her to the finale to visit Maureen's grave?

Someone said that Jill can't work with anyone she hasn't worked with before; kind of a conundrum but it's true. She brought on SO many Santa Barbara people and she lost writers. She lost the heart and soul of GL. THAT is partly what Rauch inherited.

I agree with poster above saying she should have welcomed Zimmer back and gone after Grant. Why not reach out to Mary Kay Adams? BEG Beverlee to return for a handful of shows every year to keep the character of Alex around. (Marj was not Alex, god bless her).

IN 1986, Joe Willmore brought back Bernau, Peter Simon, Grant and Robert Newman all for the better of the show. When Pam Long returned in 1987, the stage was set with strong male leads.

[quote] Someone said that Jill can't work with anyone she hasn't worked with before; kind of a conundrum but it's true. She brought on SO many Santa Barbara people and she lost writers. She lost the heart and soul of GL. THAT is partly what Rauch inherited.

That's the same reason [italic]LA Law[/italic] crashed and burned in the later years when they brought in the [italic]St. Elsewhere[/italic] writers. What worked on the latter show did not work on the former show when they fell back on stories about medical traumas and proved their knowledge of the law was sorely lacking. What was true in prime-time was also true of daytime. And it's a coincidence because that's the same time A Martinez replaced Jimmy Smits.

Nobody wanted to work with lazy old Bev. JFP was going to fire her for being lazy anyway. She never wanted to work!

[quote] Marj was not Alex, god bless her

I say this every time the Marj/Alex thing is said, which has been approximately 9 million times now, because we do love to play the same notes on our piano here.

Anyway, Marj did a GREAT job in her initial stretch of time as Alex. Especially when the decent writing was there, she had Patrick Mulcahey writing dialogue for her (a great dinner where her Alex and Roger fought).

It was after Marj was let go, went to AMC and then returned that things started going off the rails a bit, because she was still playing AMC's Vanessa a bit in her scenes and apparently no director reigned her in.

Sadly, the character was destroyed in the early 2000s - partly with the Alex stalking Reva story, which was, if I recall correctly, nonsense under Conboy/Weston, and also when the writers had Alex be the one that hid Gus from Alan (which simply would have never happened, sorry). That's mostly a writing issue, but the more over the top Marj got, the more they wrote to those facets.

Marj's roots were in comedy and improv so that was what she reached for when the writing wasn't there.

But had she locked her performance in place a bit more at the beginning, I think she made a good transition from Beverlee. She had some great scenes with Nick. Unfortunately the Nick/Mindy story was out of gas already after K Simms was gone, and they beat THAT dead horse for a year or so before wisely moving on.

[quote]Perfect set up for a Fletcher/Claire/Ed/Holly quadrangle

Treading lightly here, but that is a great B storyline. I think Jill's point , and it was a good one, is that there was no A storyline or A players.

Someone asked why JFP didn't go after Zimmer or Grant, maybe there were other reasons at play. Maybe it was a money thing or a network thing or someone decided those characters need to be rested for a little while longer.

Another thing I remember about WOST is how the message boards were full of calls to cancel the P&G shows. Those calls turned into self-fulfilling prophesies. How many of those calls were from inside the house? And how many were from inside the House of Mouse once the ABC deal gave them their soaps? Either way, you got what you wanted and killed them. Happy now?

WOST was full of queens bitter that Guiding Light dropped “the” and that there are shows produced on the West Coast.

And what about that guy Danfling who wouldn't even call shows taped on the West Coast "soap operas"? What happened to him?

A bunch of nuts like soapvetfan at SON.

Why is Nelson Branco trying to make himself a thing again? Doug Davidson shouldve punched harder

Never has the phrase "you can't pick your fans" ever applied more than it does here. How many of these people are the reasons not only that the shows were canceled but that we don't get reruns anymore?

R119, you make valid points re: Marj. I actually recall her initial appearances thinking wow; this isn't Myrna or Pamela or her other characters. But it went downhill fast.

R120, you can't have it both ways; if Jill's lamenting a loss of A players, you're only going to make things worse by killing off your B+++ (Emmy winning) actors.

If she's saying she had no A players than go after GUIDING LIGHT A players. When Beverlee tells you she's unhappy, you say "I'm so sorry. You're vital to this show. How can we fix this?" Supposably, Jill said 'tell her to read her contract' when Bev announced she was leaving. Her response? "No. YOU read my contract."

In fairness to Jill, there's someone else who hires all their pals in show biz and that person's name is EVERYONE. But Jill took the frequency to new heights. She like a lot of other producers and writers never bother to learn a show's history the way Marland would.

With Bill and Aggie, they knew their histories because they were at their shows for so long. You HAVE to put the show first

PLUS, A player, B player.... those are subjective. A show's fans may think an actor is A-team while a producer coming on who has never ever seen the show before may think that person is a C player.

[quote] full of queens bitter that Guiding Light dropped “the”

This gum lost its sugar a long, long, LONG time ago. If this was ever amusing to anyone, it ceased to be a long time ago.

I just remember how many soap news/blog sites there were in the late 90s/early 00s.

Now there aren't many. Soap Central just mirrors SOD for the most part. Daytime Confidential does occasionally break news. Muscle Mary Michael Fairman is just as sycophantic as always. And We Love Soaps has been inactive for some time.

[quote]PLUS, A player, B player.... those are subjective.

Soaps are ensembles, but everyone knows who the A players are and who the B players are.

DC became uninteresting after Jamey left.

R130, it sounds like Jill didn't know that Beverlee, Zaslow, Kinkead, and verDorn were all GL A-listers.

Was soap vet Barbara Crampton more popular than Kimberly Simms? Yep.

But who was the better Mindy?

Simms proved herself when she held her own with Zas and McKinsey in the triangle story. But she's another one that Jill let walk away.

She couldn't stop Sherry or Beverlee, but she let Kimberly walk out. And THEN on top of losing those three she kills Maureen.

[quote][R130], it sounds like Jill didn't know that Beverlee, Zaslow, Kinkead, and verDorn were all GL A-listers.

We can go back and forth on this all day. But those were important players, and I take nothing from them, but were not A listers - at least during the time we're talking about. They were more like plot stirrers for the A stories. Reva, Phillip, Harley, Josh, Annie, those were the superstars.

I also don't buy the 'I didn't know she was that popular' argument from JFP. Sure, social media didn't exist, but people sent in snail mail in those days and the outrage was the same. She had her reasons for going this way with the character ($$$$) so fans caring (or not caring) wasn't really a concern. She also HATED fans, so to appeal to their interest in the present when she didn't give a shit back then is self-serving.

[quote]I could never imagine McKinsey in a role other than Iris but Alexandra turned out to be a big favorite with viewers.

After Alexis slithered into court on Dynasty in 1981, everybody wanted the same lightning in their own bottle. Some pulled it off, some didn't. McKinsey did, in part because she's awesome and also in part because GL adapted the idea but didn't copy the character and, under McKinsey, wrote her as an original character. So Alexandra owes her existence to Alexis, but not her character.

McKinsey was one of soaps’ laziest performers! She never wanted to work. Marj was a workhorse and did not think the show and everyone’s schedule revolved around her!

Annie wasn't even on the show when Jill first came on and didn't become huge until Rauch. Harley was on the show when Jill was and her pairing with Mallet was supercouple-y

The thing about GL is that it's very different show than AMC or GH -- ABC has super stars; the P&G shows had beloved favorites.

It was a different kind of connection that audiences had to them.

If you're running a show and your A listers leave (were Beth C and Robert N really A-listers, btw? Was O'Leary?)

Kim and Grant were the show's two biggest stars and Jill didn't want Zimmer; who knows if she wanted Grant back. She probably didn't know who he was. Just like Conboy and Weston, who brought Ben on were too dumb to bring back his dad Kyle, which would have given story to Josh and Reva.

it's story; characters and actors become A-listers with strong story; yes, the actor has to have appeal, but story, story, story.

JFP's way was always to pack the show with outsiders, doesn't matter what she says.

the Corringtons wrote Texas and Dynasty

Joan may not know this but she owes Alexis Morel Carrington to IRIS CARRINGTON

Beverlee Mckinslee (original Alex)----single handedly CHANGED the way Soap Opera Contracts were made on Daytime. She had an old school contract that favored the ACTOR and not the show and everyone on GL like JFF at the time didn't know it. After she quit the industry and networks reviewed hundreds of "A-LIST" contracts to exclude what Beverlee had in her contract----------------->>>"GUIDING LIGHT suffered one of its biggest blows ever in August 1992 when Beverlee McKinsey, on the last day before her scheduled annual eight-week vacation, announced she was quitting the show after almost a decade. Not many people knew it — not even the show’s executive producer at the time, Jill Farren Phelps, according to McKinsey — but daytime’s grande dame had an out in her contract: Every six months she had the option to quit. And she did. McKinsey rarely grants interviews — “Like, never,” she cracks, her voice raspy and twangy as ever — so one would expect her to be cagey. Instead, she’s incredibly candid, her tongue and wit as sharp as Alexandra’s.

Whatever lesson JFP learned from Maureen's death she learned too late to save the show.

Bringing back Reva wasn't a problem per se. Doing it in such a stupid and insulting way was.

Bev sure had a sense of entitlement. She was dumb actor on a dumb soap. Just read your lines, do your job, and make more money that 99% of the population. She should've celebrated her dumb luck, but instead chose to be bitter and play the victim.

The show went down the tubes when she hired novice Douglas Anderson to write the show. GL would've me the same fate whether Maureen was still on or not. Do any of you honestly think that demo-chasing GL by the mid-90s was going to give a story to ELLEN PARKER? What universe are you living in. She would've languished on the back burner, trotted out for weddings and holidays, and you bitches would've complained endlessly about that.

Their fates were sealed as soon as Les Moonves joined CBS. Soaps have long been viewed as a women's medium and his attitude toward women reflected itself in the post-1995 programming choices.

Being a showrunner on the P&G soaps wasn't an easy job. These shows were seen as dinosaurs, and an EP and HW had to somehow appeal to younger viewers yet not alienate too many of the old gray haired ladies who made up the bulk of these shows' audience. I'd love someone in the know to write a book about all the goings-on behind the scenes at the P&G soaps from the '90s onward. The politics must have been off the charts.

Who came up with Holly kidnapping the town brats? Her creepy brother didn't help the storyline either...Talk about ruining a character...

Marj was the best Alex. Everyone loved her because she did not sit around whining all day about being overworked like a certain someone else who complained about her four day a week schedule half the year.

She wasn't lazy, she was in the early stages of that disease that killed her.

Was she in the early stages when she was on Texas complaining about being overworked?

Maybe she was complaining because she knew it was a bargain basement [italic]Dallas[/italic] wannabe.

Marj lived with chronic pain. She never complained.

The chronic pain was from her son's death from AIDS.

For fuck's sake, Charita Bauer had her leg amputated, and never once complained. Bev could've taken a lesson.

She didn't complain because she died. She also said nothing about their waiting a year to acknowledge her death or that Dionne Warwick song they used for her death montage.

R140. I absolutely loved those last scenes with Nick and Alex. Thanks for sharing.

R152, Marj's son died from AIDS; Beverlee's did not

Marj loved having her job and realized how lucky she was. She NEVER complained.

R36 She was old. She died quite a few years ago. She worked on the soaps in the late 1950s and throughout the1960s and semi-retired around 1972 due to bad health. She was a staff writer employed by CBS. She did writing for public affairs shows, local newscasts, station announcements, and even soap operas. The Proctor & Gamble soap operas on CBS hired their own writers, but often the network would send the scripts to the staff writers to make alterations, or as my elderly friend put it, "to punch them up a bit". Some times these last minute changes would be delivered to the actors minutes before air time. She recalled there were many times she'd be sitting the actual studio doing a rewrite while the show was in progress with the changes being handed to the performers during commercial breaks. There was no time to update the teleprompters or for the actors to memorize, so a scene would undergo an "emergency re-stage" whereby an actor/actress would be standing in a room talking and instead seated at a table in conversation with the revised script on the table in front of them to read from. Not all the soaps she did work for were Proctor & Gamble, there were a few other in-house CBS soaps. I remember her telling me she did work on As the World Turns, The Guiding Light (when it was a 15 minute show), Love is a Many Splendored Thing, Where the Heart Is, and Love of Life. After she retired she did contract writing for Somerset which was on NBC. She didn't like it because the show was done in Brooklyn and she had to travel there from Manhattan for meetings.

Marj had terrible back pain that required multiple surgeries.

Did she at least flush her toilet unlike a certain veteran on ATWT?

Marj was a Republican. Would she have voted for Trump?

Monica Warner would have married Trump if she needed the money badly enough.

[quote]She wasn't lazy, she was in the early stages of that disease that killed her.

You are responding to a troll who endlessly repeats the same variations on three or four themes. We invite you to block it and join the rest of the civilized adults.

Marj appreciated her success. Bev did not.

[quote] So Alexandra owes her existence to Alexis, but not her character.

Alexis Carrington exists because the Shapiros stole shamelessly from Another World and based Alexis on Iris. You know, Iris CARRINGTON.

Joan owes a thanks and several million dollars, probably, to the template Beverlee cast for her, which resulted in two jobs for her.

Notice when people talk about Bev, no one brings up her strong work ethic.

At least it's fun and interesting (although sometimes repetitive) conversation here on DL. I browsed some of the soap boards today and there are still people wailing about how much they miss GL and wish it were still on. Really? I think they're in love with a picture in their head from 30 years ago, no longer attainable for many, many reasons. Some of the characters they loved then are in their 60's, 70's, and 80's now. Do we really want to see them bed hopping? Wasn't that one of the problems with Reva - always being written like she was 20 and struck men down with her beauty even though she was a dried-up hag in a mumu?

Thanks, R158 -- your neighbor must have been fun to talk with. My mom didn't watch soaps but I remember seeing bits and pieces of them when I was home from school on vacations or sick, 1952-1965. My favorite scenes were in black and white, full of dramatic pauses and organ music dissolving into constant commercials for housewifey products like floor wax or laundry soap -- those were the days!

Daytime soaps never should have tried to copy the nighttime shows because the money just wasn't there to do that kind of storytelling justice. It was silly to see all these people from what were basically hick towns getting mixed up in international intrigue.

I think part of the issue is that a lot of gay men who came of age when these soaps were in their prime and were rejected by their families for being "different" came to view these soap characters as their surrogate families who could offer them unconditional love. No matter how much their kids screwed up, Bert Bauer, Mac Cory, Nancy Hughes, etc., loved them and accepted them for who they were. Thus, the extreme emotional attachment to these shows that many gay men still have after all these years, and why they take each and every criticism of the show as a personal affront.

Everything went downhill when “The” was dropped from the title.

Buck wouldn't have had back pain of any description. And he certainly wouldn't have pined for Fletcher Reade.

I fell in love with soap opera, because I love the form. It really is like peeking inside someone else's living room, and in no other genre can you follow almost every beat of character over the course of years. It's more intimate than prime time or film. It also brings back fond memories of my Grandmother and my aunt and lunchtime in the summers while Days was on.

I don't think my experience is all that different from others and it's why decades after the fact people are still talking about B character's death.

[quote] At least it's fun and interesting

No, you may not have read its more egregious posts but the things it obsesses about are truly scary.

R169, I believe an NBC exec proclaimed that Santa Barbara was going to out dynasty Dynasty

No.

Just No.

Frankly, I doubt the average woman who grew up watching TGL at her grandmother's knee and then got caught up in it herself in the 80s and 90s while she was a stay-at-home mom thinks much about Maureen or soaps in general these days. They saw them for what these shows are...mindless entertainment that they could emotionally detach themselves from. But it's something about gay men and others who formed unhealthy emotional attachments to these shows and characters that is a bit troubling.

Troubling, R176?

Do you say the same thing about comic book fans? Or fans of prime time shows?

Has Vee, who is in the biz, flushed Eileen’s toilet yet?

yes, r177, I do find extreme emotional attachment to fictional characters somewhat troubling. Psychologically healthy people don't form these types of emotional bonds with fictional characters. I want to knock some sense into people, but it's useless. Hello, these are fictional characters played by paid actors reading words written for them.

I'll take the banter here any day over pointless social media posts that just say 'I miss GL' and everyone piling on the same in response. No other point to it, just over and over again asking for the show to come back on the air.

Grant said that he and Rauch were discussing ways to revive the show before he died.

Soaps were always playing musical EPs and just rotating around the hacks instead of training and promoting fresh blood. No one in charge cared enough. I always laugh that Michael Laibson was fired to bring Paul Rauch in, and once Rauch had thoroughly destroyed the show and they needed a new EP, they offered the job to Michael Laibson again. Unsurprisingly, he told them to go to hell.

Rauch was widely considered a great producer within the industry, but the fans mostly hated him. I don't understand that disparity.

Too much of any good thing can be dangerous, but why single out one genre in particular for ridicule?

If Rauch had any strength, it was technical producing, although the moon-landing lighting was just nuts. The problem was him butting into story and not staying in his lane. That's why the combo of Rauch/Lemay at Another World is thought to have been his own successful soap tenure; Lemay had no problem telling him to fuck off and bullying him right back. No one else could do that at any of the other shows.

That was the 1970s, R185. The ratings (and therefore the money) were still there to justify it.

Objectively, Rauch's OLTL was very successful too. I remember reading that ABC execs asked Linda Gottlieb to watch OLTL before she took over from Rauch. She said it was the worst produced show she had ever seen.

Rauch had no patience for lazy Beverlee!

Yet he put up with all sorts of crap from Kim Zimmer.

[quote]Rauch was widely considered a great producer within the industry, but the fans mostly hated him. I don't understand that disparity.

The industry cares about ratings and budgets. Fans care about story and characters.

Yes, we still talk a great deal about old shows and old stories, often the same ones.

Listen here, toots. Forty some years ago, we were all young. Our parents were still alive, and our mothers probably introduced us to our shows. Our democracy was still somewhat intact and so was our universe.

Change is the only constant in life, and things are falling to shit in the world, so sometimes it's a lovely escape to climb into a time capsule and remember what was. And yes, just like old married slobs that will re-litigate a sports play every time they're together, we will always talk about many of the same things, same actors, same stories, same scenes.

It's what we've done here now for over a decade, and I know. I started many of the threads.

We are the same as, say, Harry Potter fanatics, that hash, rehash and debate every comma, period and line of text in those books. Because the characters and story transported us, made us feel something. The characters felt real or relatable enough that many of us kept watching even when the shows went to shit.

So yes, we want to talk about that. Not who hates who or who said what at some other message board that none of us belong to or car about. Not the fecal urgencies of any performer, or any toilets clogged. Not any snatches eaten.

So watch it, toots.

I was almost Alexandra Spaulding.

*care

I think what fans don't always realize is that EPs and HWs come into these shows with certain directives from either the network or the production company and sometimes both.

Let's take a modern day example. ABC has decided that it no longer wants rapists and characters associated with rape on GH, so the EP has to follow that plan, even if it means blowing up his show and getting rid of a popular character.

Now let's use an older example. Days of our Lives had moved up to #2 in the HH ratings and was a lock on #1 in the important demos. But Another World lost a lot of Days lead in so the network instructed the producer to make Another World more friendly to the Days audience.

Now let's use a classic example. Proctor and Gable wanted to make their shows more modern and younger and demo friendly like GH. So the company made a decision to remove the "the" from Edge of Night and Guiding Light. All those shows, except Search, got new theme songs and opening credits and all those shows got storylines about discos and some of those shows even got whole new families who were oil people.

Rauch, JFP, none of those people worked in a vacuum. They weren't Bill Bell. They had to report to someone.

R189 I think the putting up with crap was mutual. She called the shots like she was one of the boys. I always heard rumors that he was screwing her, since nothing else justified the blind devotion and turning over 90% of the show to her, PLUS the non-stop references to Reva's drop-dead beauty long after they were believable.

I remember one scene early in the clone story when Real Reva lands on the island - first words out of Sean's mouth are that she's the most beautiful woman he's ever seen. Cut to a shot of Zimmer looking like a sun-fried cow with straw hair and her boobs hanging out of her dingy shirt. Yep nothing else explained it.

[quote] I think what fans don't always realize is that EPs and HWs come into these shows with certain directives from either the network or the production company and sometimes both. Let's take a modern day example. ABC has decided that it no longer wants rapists and characters associated with rape on GH, so the EP has to follow that plan, even if it means blowing up his show and getting rid of a popular character.

At least GL could show rape for the crime that it is compared to GH which built its most famous moment around a marriage of rapist and victim.

Search did get a new theme song in 1981, which butchered the beautiful, iconic theme that they'd be using up until that time. The only theme worse than this one is its last one. God that was just awful.

[quote] Bev sure had a sense of entitlement. She was dumb actor on a dumb soap. Just read your lines, do your job, and make more money that 99% of the population. She should've celebrated her dumb luck, but instead chose to be bitter and play the victim.

I'm sure she was glad for the work, but she was bothered that she was never encouraged or allowed to explore her craft. No matter which role she had, the bosses and the audience wanted Iris Cory Carrington, Bancroft...blah blah.

[quote]The only theme worse than this one is its last one.

I didn't mind this one. I liked it better than the GL disco theme.

Bev played the same character everywhere. So lazy! She wanted everything handed to her without doing the work. Marj was the total opposite.

For anyone old enough to remember, what was Bev like as Emma Ordway? I gather she must've killed it for Rauch to have her back as Iris.

Wow, this thread is moving fast. I see we discussed WoST above. I posted there back in the day. It definitely attracted the crazies after a while. They went full in on the whole Kola Boof debacle.

R197 I actually like the synth SFT theme and find it pretty catchy, but like the Crystal Gayle AW theme it had the stench of desperation and would've gotten dated real fast.

The only problem with the [italic]Guiding Light[/italic] disco theme is that it came too late and felt more appropriate for a cop show.

R197: How did Chuck Mangione not sue their asses over that?

I loved the disco theme.

But instead of Tony karate chopping, I would have preferred the theme play in the background while Tony Reardon lubed up to punch Kelly's fartbox with his huge hog.

OR it should have had Henry Chamberlain shaking a tambourine.

I loved the disco theme too, but it didn't seem suited for TGL, which I guess was the point of it...to have the show seem edgier and contemporary.

I think it was accurate the A list characters were Reva, Josh, Phillip, Beth, Rick who they lost. I don’t think Jill thought ALL the A listers were gone but they lost a lot right there. The show actually absorbed those losses well. The losses they didn’t absorb well were losing Bev, Simms, and Stringfield within weeks of each other. At least with Reva, Josh, Phillip and Beth there were no recasts in the middle of red hot stories. Reva left. Phillip and Beth married and left.

In 1993, bringing back Reva would have been smart but bringing back Phillip and Beth when NICK was on the show would have been the really smart decision. It would have come as the Mindy recast didn’t work with Nick.

I had no idea that the last Search theme had lyrics. Oh my God... you don't get more 80s than this. Mary Stuart must have had a fit... well... another fit after she finished cursing the name McCleary.

[quote] I loved the disco theme too, but it didn't seem suited for TGL, which I guess was the point of it...to have the show seem edgier and contemporary.

It might have if they had introduced it three years earlier.

1993 would have been a good time to bring Phillip/Beth back. With Nick being on the scene things would have been explosive. It would also nullify the bad Mindy recasts. Plus, Beth could be there for Lillian

Was it Rauch who “Bombshelled” up Beth Chamberlin? She was always pretty but when she came back in 1997 she was stunning. Her blonder hair really showed off her bone structure. She was also wearing more flattering outfits.

[quote] For anyone old enough to remember, what was Bev like as Emma Ordway? I gather she must've killed it for Rauch to have her back as Iris.

As Emma Ordway she spoke with accent she grew up with.

I think Alex was supposed to be a new love interest for Mike Bauer, but Don Stewart, who liked em younger, was having none of it. They were also hinting at a Mike/Lillian pairing, but he and Tina Sloan had zero chemistry, and course, she was too old for him. Did Don Stewart simpy quit, or was he fired by Kobe during her Bauer purge?

A fartbox sounds like one of those juvenile novelties you buy at Spencer's.

At all times Reva was the worst thing about GL. I loved the episode of Designing Women when Kim Zimmer played Charlene's cousin who got beaten up by her husband.

I wish that Alan Locher had asked Jill why THE was dropped from GL in 1977. I’m still not over it.

Rick was not A-list.

You forgot me.

And no, he wasn't.

R211, Rauch was all about the look; his most successful shows were where he had a great writer. AW - Lemay

Not having Beth Chamberlin and Vincent Irizzary share screentime was criminal.

THAT"S an "A" story.

Btw, if Jill is so into A-listers why -- when she got to YR -- did she fire Genie, Stephen Nichols, Debbie Morgan, et. al.

^Those people had no history at Y&R. They were all a bust at Y&R. Jill made the right decision in dumping them all. They took up salary and were a waste of space.

So she could import the wildly successful Steve Burton.

R216: The dropping of articles usually accompanies a systemic dumbing down of everything.

That was the case when The Disney Channel became Disney Channel, too.

Would they eventually have begun dropping prepositions as well? Would we have been stuck with "Love Life" and "Search Tomorrow" if those shows had stayed on the air longer? When would it have stopped? Talk about your slippery slopes.

Darling!

The slippery slope is real and should no longer be considered a logical fallacy.

Goutman wanted to change the show to As World Turns and make it a 3 day a week show. Moonves said no, we’re cancelling you instead.

[quote] Would they eventually have begun dropping prepositions as well? Would we have been stuck with "Love Life" and "Search Tomorrow" if those shows had stayed on the air longer? When would it have stopped? Talk about your slippery slopes.

Such word crimes should be prosecuted. Too bad they canceled [italic]Edge Night[/italic].

If they began dropping articles and prepositions, the much loved "From These Roots" would've been retitled "Roots." Alex Haley would've had to give his book another title. Consequently, we never would've gotten the successful miniseries, and the term "Roots" would never have become part of the cultural lexicon. Now do you see the damage that can result from dropping words from soap titles. Sure, on the surface, it's a harmless endeavor. But there are long-term consequences, people!

First, they dropped the word the, and then they misspelled Mary Stuart's name on-screen when she died:

Too bad about the typo, but at least they didn't call her "Mary McCleary" by accident. That would've been enough for Mary to rise from her grave and cunt out whoever wrote that on the card.

R229 THAT was terrible. I remember watching it live and just being like, oh, for fucks sake, really?

Collins made that ridiculous movie about giant ants. Daytime wouldn't have been much of a step down from that.

Wrong line. Here's the trailer

Besides Joan, whatever big 80s prime time soap stars later slummed it up in daytime? Joan Van Ark, Ted Shackelford, Kevin Dobson, Donna Mills, Linda Gray, Patrick Duffy, Steve Kanaly, John James, Gordon Thompson, Michael Nader, Lorenzo Lamas. Who the fuck else?

[quote]Btw, if Jill is so into A-listers

You confusing A list actors with "A characters".

Examples of A characters:

Reva and Phillip on GL

Vicky and Jake on AW

Carly on ATWT

Raven on Edge

The McClearys on Search (stand back... Mary's head explodes!)

Reena on Texas

Donna Mills LOVES hearing “Emmy Winner Donna Mills” when she gives an interview and you can hear the disgust in the interviewers voice when her ‘emmy’ is for GH.

I'll say it again: A list characters on GL were Alexandra, Roger, Vanessa, Ed, Ross, Holly, Billy....Harley and soon Mallet; she had plenty of A-listers

her saying she lost A=listers was a flimsy excuse to bring on her SB pals.

You lose Reva and Phillip? Go after India, Rita, Hope....Mary Kay Adams back full time would have been so much better than Marj (RIP)

[quote]Alexandra, Roger, Vanessa, Ed, Ross, Holly, Billy

No one was watching those characters for a love story - the main bread and butter of soaps. They were popular characters, but not romantic leads.

Actually, they were in fact. And market research found that viewers in the most highly sought demos liked characters in that age group the most.

Respectfully disagree that Vanessa, Ed, Ross, Holly, and Billy were A-team characters. They were very much supporting B-team characters. Beloved by the audience, yes, but benchwarmers, nonetheless. Alexandra and Roger are debatable, as they really were just used to further the plot, but had more visibility than Vanessa, Ed, etc. A-team characters were Josh, Reva, Philip, Beth, Rick, Mindy, Alan-Michael, Buzz, and Harley.

oh, speaking of A-listers, Robert Calhoun brought back Vincent Irizarry, this time as Nick so when Jill came on one of her SB pals was already there. .

Maybe you couldn't get Grant right away (dude needed a break), but if Beth came home to help Lillian through breast cancer and spotted him.

STORY. STORY STORY

Was Robert Calhoun related to former Vice President John C. Calhoun?

R238 What about Roger/Holly, Ross/Blake, and Matt/Vanessa? These are some of the show's most popular pairings, and they all happened on JFP's watch. (Roger/Holly were inherited of course, but she gave them a story until she blew them up for the snore fest that was Fletcher/Holly. The other two she got off the ground).

[quote][R229] THAT was terrible. I remember watching it live and just being like, oh, for fucks sake, really?

Making it all the more ironic that the intended beneficiary of her postmortem begging was a charity for children's literacy.

You DO realize that this is a cancelled soap opera that is never coming back. Shoulda woulda coulda. What they “should” have done is pointless.

It's like fantasy football. People can be dead and there is a constituency that wants to construct an alternative history.

If [italic]Punky Brewster[/italic] can come back, then there isn't much I would rule out at this point, R245.

The wave of reboot-mania is also resulting in a short-run AMC reboot.

Has the AMC reboot bee given the go-ahead? The last I heard about it was when Miss Locher asked Agnes's son Bob Nixon, who's involved with the reboot, a couple of months ago about how it's all coming along.

David Andrew MacDonald doesn't get enough attention here.

Matt was a great addition and gave A-lister Vanessa new life; Bravo!

Liz is a sweet woman. She was never Blake. Sherry owns that role the way Stafford owns Phyllis.

This reminds me of how Margaret Mitchell learned about the civil war sitting on the knees of ancient aunts and uncles as they refought the whole thing on Sunday afternoons.

[quote]Maybe you couldn't get Grant right away (dude needed a break), but if Beth came home to help Lillian through breast cancer and spotted him.

That was something I never understood. Lillian gets breast cancer and Beth is no where to be found. Beth is occasionally mentioned as taking care of baby Lizzie in Arizona. I think one time Lillian even went to see them in Arizona for a few days. But Beth never flew back to take her mother to her first chemo appointment, to hold her hand!?!?

Sure Grant needed time off, but surely Beth Chamberlain would have done a few episodes.

Ross Marler was not an A-list character when JFP took over as EP in 1991. At that point, he was barely even C-list.

Pam Long had hardly used Ross during her tenures as HW. In fact, I sometimes wondered if they simply forgot to fire him because he was on so seldom. The only time Ross had any major storyline after Marland and Jane Elliot departed in 1982 was in 1986-87 when he was dating Lillian's sister Calla and learning that he and Vanessa were Dinah's parents. And those 1986-87 storylines was when Pam was NOT the HW.

However, Ross became an A-List character in 1992 thanks to the pairing of Ross and Holly and then subsequently adding in Blake to make it a triangle. Jerry ver Dorn can really thank Sherry Stringfield for making Ross a front burner character!

I recall in Nov 1992, show did an Election Day special episode devoted to Ross and his campaign to be the Springfield DA. I remember scratching my head over this. A special episode built around Ross Marler?!? I mean special episodes were reserved for characters like Reva, Phillip, Alan, Alexandre, Billy Lewis, etc. and here Ross was getting one!?! What's next, Vera the maid getting a special episode?

But by that point, JFP had pushed him to A-list character with the Blake-Ross-Holly triangle and the special episode was an indication they intended to keep him A-list.

Who’d be parachuting into the Bauer barbecue in 2021? I’d like it to be India and her hot Andorran grandson Serge.

Ross had to get more airtime because Jerry ver Dorn would work and not complain like some of his costars. Looking at you Beverlee. Everyone was much happier on the set once Marj arrived as Alexandra.

Everybody complained once they were shuffled off to Peapack, New Jersey.

They wouldn’t dare bring Beth back for a few episodes with Lujack’s twin around. Way too much story there for a quick see, faint, omg you’re not Lujack, back to Arizona. Honestly, that would have fucked any writer that wanted to make that a huge story later. Oh, no one did? NO ONE?

Ross was the ROMANTIC lead from 79-84 when Long and Kobe gave him the shaft. Pairing him with that dreadful Annabelle Gurwitch, was just...puke.

Since we're talking about Ross. Didn't he come on as a bad guy? What was the reason he changed?

Ross wasn’t a bad guy necessarily but he was ambitious. He showed up as Roger’s during the Holly/Roger rape trial. He started to soften when he was paired with Carrie Todd.

Ross was one of the show's leading men; always in the forefront; he REAMED Alex for her role in setting up Roger and Holly

He essentially replaced Justin as Phillip's birth father.

He was the go to guy for everything INCLUDING telling viewers that Charita had died.

GL actors can't be compared to ABC "stars" -- the GL characters are treasured heirlooms and ABC stars are flavors of the month.

So whatever happened to Vincent Izzarry's kid and the Jan 6th charges? Did he get indicted?

And GL/ATWT actors can’t be compared to GH/Days/Y&R/B&B actors. The east coast ones more often than not had depth and humor and the west coast ones were shallow and hammy.

R263, that's a broad statement, but there's merit to it.

It's why I will always maintain Jills saying she killed Maureen to shake up that there weren't as many A-listers on GL as bs.

Pam threw Ross and Vanessa back together in 87; the problem was they had both grown so much; he wasn't as ambitious in a bad way and she wasn't the bitch she once was.

Post Vanessa, Ross was paired with Jenny (Mary Ellen Stuart), Nadine for a bit, then Holly.

Ellen was wrong to lose both Jerry and Grant. It killed the show. I think they wanted to kill the show.

R265 it was mostly budgetary in regards to Jerry Ver Dorn - and he was placed on recurring

I don't think Ellen foresaw that another show (OLTL) would scoop him up. I think she took JVD for granted that he would accept recurring and stick around.

in fairness to Jill, a lot of these producers make bone-headed decisions; hers just seem to stand out more.

Pam didn't bring Vanessa and Ross together....that was Mary Ryan Musta-something, who once wrote for Ryan's Hope. She was also a friend of Maeve's.

Pam had Ross and Vanessa rolling around in the hay -- literally -- in the July 4th episode of GL 1987

Golden Age

r269 Pam wasn't HW in July 1987. She came back to HW with episodes airing in late Sept 1987.

R270, is it possible her material was airing a little earlier uncredited?

I noted a marked improvement in the show around this time.

Plus that big barbeque with Alan Michael skydiving into the festivities has Long written all over it.

[quote] Liz is a sweet woman. She was never Blake. Sherry owns that role the way Stafford owns Phyllis.

I respectfully disagree. Sherry was great, and nailed a certain level of cold bitchery. But Liz made Blake a full fledged, multifaceted adult.

We have people still arguing about Strasser vs Wyndham 50 years later so I don't assume I'll win the argument for this one, but it's my humble opinion.

Today is GL's 69th anniversary on TV.

The two separate anniversaries was always so confusing.

R271 It may be she supplied that idea, but I really remember how much GL changed in September when her work first started airing again.

It's as if someone flipped a switch. I have never seen such an immediate change in a show.

So not sure how much she supplied beforehand.

R267, except she kept making it everywhere she worked.

I actually think both Stringfield and Liz brought equal, if different, strengths to the role. It was one recast that I thought worked really well.

Stringfield played Roger's daughter. Stringfield was more Blake than Chrissy.

Liz played Holly's daughter. Liz was more Chrissy than Blake.

I thought Betty Rea hit it out of the park on a few early 90s recasts.

Kimberley Simms was one of those equal but different. She was great - I loved Krista too, but I kinda love Kimberley a little more to be honest!

Liz replacing Sherry.

But her masterpiece was Rick Hearst taking over Alan-Michael. Carl Evans was great, but Rick made AM a grown man and real competition - for the first and perhaps only time - to his family.

R272, Liz played the role more adult, but Sherry made the role FUN

Rick Hearst and Kimberley played more mature versions of the parts that Carl and Krista created and as they were young adults, maturity was fine to see.

Nancy Curlee and Stephen Demorest are on Miss Locher's House of Fun today.

I didn't know Nancy Curlee was Southern. She sounds like Pam!

[quote] Plus that big barbeque with Alan Michael skydiving into the festivities has Long written all over it.

That was still Mary Ryan Munisteri as she was trying to expand the Bauer family. She had already added Johnny Bauer, then added his parents (Jack & Laine), then sister Lacey Bauer.

Mary Ryan Munisteri was planning a quadrangle of Dinah Marler/Cameron Stewart/Lacey Bauer/ Alan-Michael Spaulding.

They had just cast Frank Dicopolus as "Todd Bauer" when Pam Long agreed to come back

Immediately Pam Long axed Mary Ryan Munisteri expansion of the Bauer family, pink slipping Jack, Laine & Lacey Bauer. But holding on to Johnny

She quickly pivoted Frank Dicopoulos changing his character from Todd Bauer to Frank Cooper, and giving him a sister - Harley Cooper. Replacing Lacey in that "quad" with Harley.

R281 And I think that might be part of the legend of "Pam hated the Bauers and killed them all off" that still rears its head.

A lot of the original Bauer changes in her first run were network dictated.

For what you just described, it sounds like she probably had to stay within a budget, and figured we weren't attached to Lacey. (Anyone who saw her on screen knew she was a flop). So Todd became Frank and Lacey became Harley.

Locher is SO bad at doing this.

How many times can he say "you know?"

Have we been M'd?

It would be killing Joan right now if she knew this thread was no longer talking about her.

Fuck that old wrinkled hag

Sad news - Brand New Sexy Donna (the actress not the DL poster) has died.

David Brandon, a production assistant at GL, also died this week. He was young-ish, not sure what happened there.

Nelson Aspen's tribute to Philece

[quote] Heartbroken to receive the call today that my dear friend, Philece Sampler, has passed away from a heart attack, just shy of her 68th birthday. That explains why I didn’t hear from her yesterday on my own birthday: we always celebrated as Cancerian siblings. She was an amazingly energetic, loving and loyal friend. I first met Philece in 1987 when we were both working on “Another World.” She joined the cast after successful runs on “Days of Our Lives” and the primetime serial “Rituals.” When I moved to LA in 1990, she generously let me live in her beautiful Hollywood Hills home and we became even closer. So close, in fact, that we wrote several screenplays together and bred beautiful Abyssinian cats. I think that over the decade of the ‘90s, I spent more time with Philece than anyone else. She was as wickedly funny as she was vivacious. Philece was always A complete original! She went on to a very successful Voice Over career and was always hopeful that “Days of Our Lives” would invite her back. Shame on them for not doing so. She was a fan favorite and one of the most hard working, diligent people I’ve ever known. She gave 1000% to anything she did. In a fickle business like Entertainment, I’m proud that we stayed so close right up to the very end of her life. Cherish your loved ones every moment, folks. The last time we saw each other in person was right before the Covid lockdown in February of last year. I was performing my cabaret show in Los Angeles at Rockwell. Always supportive, she was there and I surprised her by singing the “Another World” theme and bringing her on stage with me. We were both in tears by the end of the song! Philece was convinced she was the reincarnation of Anne Askew, an English writer and poet who had been put to death during the reign of Henry VIII. So I am going to be keeping a sharp eye out in case she comes back as someone new. If anyone can do it, SHE can! Farewell for now, my funny and fabulous friend and “sister from another mister.” Rest in Peace. #restinpeace #rip #philecesampler #digimon #soapopera #anotherworld #daysoff #rituals #reneedimera #donnalove #anneaskew

Loved her as Renee. Wasn't a fan of her take on Donna, but that wasn't her fault.

I think Philece's tombstone will read: "She rocked as Renee, but she was no Anna Stuart in Bay City."

I never thought Joan Collins was that pretty she has a big mouth and her eyes are spaced too far apart as well as her eyebrows

We had the kind of love you'll never know!

MARY!

Unreal, imagined, fictional love?

Trust me, known more of that than I care to remember.

I was just popping in to see if BNSD got her due around here. Otherwise I'd have started a Brand New Sexy Donna is dead to me! thread.

BNSD always gets her due here, though the DL version hasn't been around in ages.

As for Philece.....well bless her, she tried.

I don't even want to look at a photo of Joan Collins. She's a Trump lover. Fuck that.

Still waiting for Goutman and/or Wheeler.

NEW THREAD

R300 new threads are usually started after post 599 - we are only halfway there

R301 These threads NEVER go to 600 because they get paywalled and as soon as they do we move on.

I DM’d Locher about Wheeler and he gave me some big heart emoji. I wonder if he’s working on it.

I loved the Nancy and Stephen Demorest interview. It was so interesting. I forgot how much I loved that period. (88-95). One thing they brought up of course was Maureen’s death and what an impact it had. She wasn’t expecting it to be so meaningful to so many. She said though which I thought was fascinating was if she had to do it over again she have pushed the car over the cliff and had Maureen not die but have Roger put her on a plane to some destination unknown. Now that would have been cool!

I heard Curlee say that, too - but the Maureen we knew, would never have left Michelle.

Did she say why? To resurrect her when a house landed on JFP's tenure?

Unless we’re Muriel’d, that is.

I believe we are Muriel'd, R306, as we have a slow moving thread now.

But that doesn't mean conversation can't continue here, a more quiet one....the other one is the Henderson thread as seen at R300