Lucille Ball’s scandalous past of nude photos and casting couches

One wonders why Gary didn’t talk her out of it.

Slut!

I'm blanking on his surname but I saw actor Taylor ______ give a one man show as a benefit performance. He told of taking Ball's class on comedy (Shirley Hemphill also attended until she grew impatient and stormed out). One day, Lucille got teary because Lela Rogers had died. Ball then told how Rogers took care of young women who had come to Hollywood, young women who had been raped by men who hung around the train station and pretended to be talent scouts.

Warning, this is a Darwin Porter book. Lots of fun to read but....how do I say this politely.....not too accurate.

Way bigger slut than I ever was, but all you ever here is oh, yeah, princess spread 'em.

Did she ever have to sleep with Mr. Mooney?

That would be Taylor Negron, R3.

I've always heard she worked as a prostitute before she broke into movies.

Lucille was a hard-nosed scrambler who just did whatever to survive.

[quote]I've always heard she worked as a prostitute before she broke into movies.

Wasn't very good at it as everytime someone asked her to do anal, this was her reaction.

Fucking stupid link. ^

Darwin Porter is as accurate as those celebrity net worth sites.

Darwin Porter makes stuff up.

In his biography on Merv Griffin, he claimed Merv had a fling with Frank Sinatra.

Maybe Darwin Porter is a phony, but I don't think it's that much of a stretch to believe that Lucy made certain "choices" to get her career going. They all did it.

How does Darwin Porter never get sued by relatives of the dead people he makes shit up about? It's disgusting he gets to make money by lying about dead celebs.

Classless!

R14. Because, legally, you can’t libel the dead. That’s why his “books” using the term loosely, are all about dead people. You might as well read fan fiction.

There are rumors that as a teen Lucille gave birth to an illegitimate child.

R17, True, but Gary talked her out of keeping it.

She even kept it up during Life with Lucy. Out on the back of the set giving handjobs to random grips.

"One wonders why Gary didn’t talk her out of it. "

'Cause Gary was about 6 years old at the time

Darwin Porter is about a dozen levels beneath the worst supermarket tabloid in terms of accuracy.

" giving handjobs to random grips"

No one could grip a grip like Lucy

Slut!

Nice girls in that day and age didn't become actresses. Almost every major Hollywood actress had a rough-and-tumble upbringing. They were liminal people who smoked, drank, and fucked around when most women didn't have sex until married or at least engaged. It's not at all surprising that so many actresses worked as nude models and prostitutes and used the casting couch. As Marilyn Monroe (another former nude model and call girl said), if you didn't go the casting couch route, there were 50 other girls who would. That was the price of fame.

Even Shirley Temple, the biggest child star of the 30s and the girl who single-handedly saved Fox from bankruptcy, was propositioned by Arthur Freed when she came over to MGM. Thirteen-year-old Shirley laughed nervously when he exposed his cock during their first meeting, and he torpedoed her career at MGM. A sad commentary on the business.

Darwin Porter makes J. Randy Taraborelli look like Hemingway.

R25, She had seen much bigger ones.

R27 = Bojangles

Joan Crawford was one of the 'six-month contract girls' when she first came to MGM. These were pretty girls scouted in theaters and dance halls all over the country by MGM execs. They had to fuck the exec to get the contract, and once in Hollywood they were given bit parts at most. Their main purpose was to service the executives and any bigwigs who came into town. After everyone had fucked them, the girls were shipped back to wherever they came from.

Joan defied the pattern set up for her by the studio through sheer force of will. She went out every night and won every dance contest in town. This convinced executives that they had something a little different in Joan. She fucked them all of course, but soon enough she snagged Doug Fairbanks Jr. She was a force to be reckoned with, which wasn't true of the other six-month girls.

Norma made her career on sheer determination and talent.

Lucille Ball should have thrown that coffee at Darwin Porter instead of at me.

And she called ME a tramp?

[quote] After everyone had fucked them, the girls were shipped back to wherever they came from.

Is that similar to a pass-around-bottom boy?

This is not entirely true.

In Lucy's defense Patty, she was trying to protect her precious baby boy from a trollop.

I don't think she knew that Desi Jr had, by 17, already fucked half of the west side.

^ Ok, Ricky, you got some spaining to do

How did Bette Davis and Roz Russell make it?

How else do you audition thousands and thousands of attractive young people who audition for Broadway and Hollywood? There has to be an initial winnowing process. Had I been a young handsome promising actor I wouldn't have had a problem with sleeping with a director or producer. I mean there are limits like you would have to be insane to sleep with a Scott or Harvey. I mean you don't want to sleep with a decomposing corpse. But Kazan in his autobio makes no bones about sleeping with young aspiring actresses. Aldo Rey talks about Cukor giving him a blow job. Van Johnson was Spencer Tracy's 'protoge.' Of course then they have to have talent and catch on with audiences. After the 'audition' they're on their own.

'protege'

[Quote] How else do you audition thousands and thousands of attractive young people who audition for Broadway and Hollywood? There has to be an initial winnowing process.

You type them out based on looks. You think every casting director has time or will to receive multiple blowjobs in a day?

When I was in grade school, our school library would have a book sale. The books were short chapter books written by god knows who. One year, I bought a biography about Lucille Ball. In the book, it said she left Jamestown to be a model in NYC. She had to move back to Jamestown because she had paralysis in her legs. I wonder if she had had an abortion and moved back to regain her health?

Years later, I remembered that some of the stories in the book were made up. They said that in the I Love Lucy episode where she lights the putty nose on fire that that was an accident. But obviously it was rehearsed and the nose had a special wick built into it.

Well if it were all head shots nobody would have ever had to have slept with anybody.

My late father (who was something of a porn maven; but that’s another thread), told me in the 1960s that Lucy had done a stag film(s) early in her career. I don’t think he said he had seen it. In retrospect, I don’t know why he told me that when I was a young fan of Lucy (yet another thread)!

He probably wanted to end your fandom.

The casting couch is nothing more than networking. Suck that dick. Spread those legs. But make sure you have something to back it up, because a fuck only lasts 15 minutes.

[quote]In retrospect, I don’t know why he told me that

So that you would have an interesting ice breaker at parties.

R44 It didn’t work. He probably also wanted me to be straight, but that didn’t work, either.

r43 has A LOT of baggage to unpack

"At RKO, she continually lost parts to rival and future pinup superstar Betty Grable. This caused her to make two key changes. To distinguish herself from the blond actress, she dyed her hair red for the first time. Others believed that this was also when she began taking her craft more seriously."

Considering that Grable didn't do much at RKO (Ginger Rogers didn't like her), its hard to think of any roles Lucy would gave lost to her. It's worth noting that Lucy & Betty became life-long friends during their time at RKO.

"Ball confided to actress Joan Blondell, “Pat taught me tricks in bed I think he learned in a brothel in Shanghai.”

Very similar to Grable's crack that her first husband Jackie Coogan "taught her everything a top whore learns in a whorehouse".

^ Uncle Fester was a sex freak?

R48 Yes, I’ve kept a few therapists busy in my lifetime.

"Ball confided to actress Joan Blondell, “Pat taught me tricks in bed I think he learned in a brothel in Shanghai.”

I'm lost, who's "Pat"?

"[R48] Yes, I’ve kept a few therapists busy in my lifetime. "

Hey, I'm an eldergay and I just found out that my grandparents had to get married... You want to talk trauma?

Celeste Holm said it was while Monroe was on set or at a party during Eve when she said, 'No more blow-jobs.' And Agnes DeMille said to R and H when she started work on Oklahoma, 'No girlfriends!'

Suzanne Farrell one of the great established ballerinas of the 20th Century had to sleep with Balanchine to continue her career at the NYCB. Now this was in her youthful prime when he had already created great parts for her and she was a star that audiences loved. She was told in no uncertain terms she would no longer be dancing with the company tacitly by a wardrobe mistress who came into her dressing room to take her costume right before a performance('I'm so sorry Suzanne.')

Years later he realized he had been a fool and when she reached out to him he took her back into the company. When he tried to apologize she begged him not to. It was too painful for her to hear.

Betty White denies to Joan Rivers that the topless photo that's been around for years is her @ 1:05.

[quote] "Ball confided to actress Joan Blondell, “Pat taught me tricks in bed I think he learned in a brothel in Shanghai.”

[quote] I'm lost, who's "Pat"?

Must be Pat Buttram.

[quote]How else do you audition thousands and thousands of attractive young people who audition for Broadway and Hollywood? There has to be an initial winnowing process

Isn't that the purpose of screen tests and bit parts? To see who has real star quality? Why should the baby star in question also be required to fuck for roles?

What's sad is you know this system hasn't changed even after Me Too. Any star of any stature has probably given a blow job or two to get where they are. Even golden girl Paltrow, daughter of Hollywood insiders and goddaughter of Stephen Spielberg, had to fuck evil rhino Weinstein to get the lead in Shakespeare in Love.

Poor Louie Anderson.

'Isn't that the purpose of screen tests and bit parts? To see who has real star quality?'

Why do you think people were fucking and sucking? To get those bit parts. It's a foot in the door. Maybe it has recently changed since the metoo movement. I can't imagine anyone pulling the Be nice to me and I'll be nice to you shenanigans for now.

Lucy, you got some 'splaining to do!

She ran off with a low level wise guy when she was 14 or 15 years old. Of course she was a huge whore.

"There are rumors that as a teen Lucille gave birth to an illegitimate child."

Many years ago I met a guy from Lucy's hometown of Jamestown who said that this was common knowledge there

She was groomed.

"There are rumors that as a teen Lucille gave birth to an illegitimate child."

[quote]he torpedoed her career at MGM.

It wasn't her lack of talent past the cute stage?

These threads are always half people saying Darwin Porter made stuff up, and the other half not caring or saying that it sounded true therefore it was true.

Did we ever find out who Pat was who knew techniques found only in a Shanghai brothel?

If Lucy told Blondell in confidientiality, then which of them blabbed and when? Both have been dead for years.

BTW, Blondell was the waitress in Grease and Kathy Bates played her in Feud.

Probably Joan. She told Lucille to go fuck herself when Lucy was being a pain in the ass during a rehearsal of her TV show. Joan didn't take shit from anybody.

Darwin Porter will say anything about anybody. So his celebrity biographies are worthless. If I want to read dirt about somebody I want it to be accurate dirt. But there are lots of people out there who believe EVERYTHING they read, so I guess a lot of people will be aghast at the sordid, slimy past of the beloved comedienne Lucille Ball.

I read a good biography of Lucille Ball by Stefan Kanter: "Ball of Fire: The Tumultuous Life and Comic Art of Lucille Ball." After reading that, which was a documented, well written bio, I seriously doubt that Lucy was getting her brains fucked out on "casting couches." She was rather a prude, nude photos notwithstanding. Sexually explicit movies disgusted her and she hated the "New Hollywood" films with all their tits and ass and fornicating. She liked "clean" entertainment and considered herself someone who provided it.

I'm not saying that I disagree with everything you wrote R71, but people from that generation were notorious hypocrites. They all did their dirt and then tried to sanitize it years after the fact. I'm would never say that Lucy was the slut of all time, because I wasn't there, but I won't dismiss the possibility that she played the game like everyone else did.

No wonder she was a whiskey-voiced hard-bitted broad at the end, who wouldn't give up on her series although America had moved on. I haven't seen Hollywood but I would love for Ryan Murphy to do a series about eager young whores who became America's sweethearts and later bitter bitches.

It says Pat DiCicco in the article r68.

R69, thank you for dullsplaining to the DL, of all places, who the brilliant Joan Blondell "was."

As if we don't know her by her many great comedic roles before "Grease."

It was Pat Nixon.

I doubt most actors and actresses were or are traumatized by putting out here and there to get ahead. Successful ones know how things work and beautiful young people are highly aware of the "currency" of their youth and beauty. I doubt they care all that much.

I always knew she was a slapper.

In 1925, Ball, then only 14, started dating Johnny DeVita, a 21-year-old local hoodlum.

Not our Lucy!

"Lucy continued about Ginger Rogers' mother: "In the early '30s when women came to Hollywood and they got off the train, they were met by men who impersonated agents and studio executives offering them rides. The men raped these women," Lucille let the tears roll."

"Lela Rogers created the Hollywood Studio Club, a place where young actresses could live, and be safe from these rapist men. In those days, when you were raped, a girl never mentioned it."

Unless missed something see no mention of Mrs. Rogers in Wiki page for Hollywood Studio Club...

Trust Vanity Fair to dig up dirt!

"The transactional nature of the film business was something most women learned sooner or later. The former child star Cora Sue Collins, today a vital and vibrant 92, still remembers the moment she realized that sex with the bosses was the norm. She was all of eight in 1935 when, as she stood waiting outside Louis B. Mayer’s office, the door opened to reveal a woman yelling back at Mayer, “Don’t tell me! I fucked every one of you bastards on the way up.” Collins immediately recognized her as Norma Shearer, the wife of MGM production head Irving Thalberg. (It would be years before Cora Sue learned the meaning of the word fuck.)"

Lela Rogers bearded for J. Edgar Hoover.

The nude photos have been out there for years and are pretty tame. Also Betty white finally copped to those nudes being her.

[quote]Lela Rogers created the Hollywood Studio Club,

No, she didn't. Mrs. Cecil B. DeMille and Mary Pickford did.

Harvey Weinstein fucked me.

I thought he just ate your box rose?

lmfao

Imagine turning on your tv in the mid 50s and there’s Lucy eating all the chocolates on the conveyor belt ... and you remember when she gobbled your pulsating dick for a small part in a musical?

"I thought he just ate your box rose? "

Did someone say "box rose"?

"It says Pat DiCicco in the article [R68]. "

Who the hell was "Pat DiCicco" and when was he in a Shanghai brothel? He sounds more interesting then Lucy

R92, He was Gloria Vanderbilt's first husband.

R85, No, she did not.

I was molested at the Hollywood Studio Club.

Betty says it's not her. She's not mad about it, but says she's been seeing the photo for decades and has always explained it wasn't her. Found this audio of her story, where she says the photo was originally a girl in a bikini and then later in the 1980s showed up as a nudie, and it wasn't her at all, but she thought it would be funny to take to Letterman and talk about it, and I guess now people think she's admitted it was her.

"[R92], He was Gloria Vanderbilt's first husband. "

Gloria Vanderbilt's husband was fucking Lucy? Does Anderson know?

Pat DiCicco was uncle to producer Albert Broccoli, and they were both with Wallace Beery on the night comedian Ted Healy died after being involved in a fist fight. Broccoli admitted to the papers that the three had indeed had an altercation with Healy but it wasn't what killed him. The autopsy supposedly revealed he died from something other than injuries, but people have been questioning that since 1937.

DiCicco was also married to Thelma Todd and abused her. She got away from him but a year later ended up dead from what looked like a suicide, but there have been rumors DiCicco had her killed. He married a 17-year-old Gloria Vanderbilt and beat her black and blue. Awful man.

It has long been common knowledge that RKO pimped out a very willing Lucille Ball to cinema owners to encourage them to show their films.

I'm sure that RKO and Lucille were not alone in this practice.

Well when the Betty White nudes come up they don't look like her. It is easy to not believe it. The Ball nudes look like her.

This stuff is exaggerated. The stories about her being a call girl when she modeled in NYC are probably true--the first non-hagiography bio of her covered that ground.

If she slept with Harry Cohn, it didn't get her very far. They usually did short or single picture contracts in those days at Columbia and she never did much there.

Her real mogul affair was with Pandro Berman at RKO. She never rally got beyond being queen of the Bs there but let's face it, she wasn't a great actress ever and her singing was terrible. RKO would have been where she became friends with Ginger Rogers who was the real queen of the lot.

Enough with the Lucille Ball threads, you obsessed freak.

R98

Read about Themla Todd's death in "Hollywood Babylon", and assumed much of the story (like nearly everything else in that book) was rather loose with the truth.

Always found it odd that a seventeen year old Gloria Vanderbilt was allowed to marry such a horrible person. Though normal MO for wealthy families was to dispatch a team of lawyers and or use other ways to have such marriages annulled, or at least get their daughter to file for divorce at once.

Some of the people who found Todd said she looked like she'd tried to wipe some of the blood from her injuries off her face, and also tried to get out of the car.

R55, Farrell probably could have strung Balanchine along. What made him furious was not so much that she rejected him but that she married a dancer from the corps.

To reject him in favor of a 'nobody' is what roused the fury.

I really don't want to think about what's been inside Lucy's cooter.

This seems very apropos. Ball shakes her ass for a gig.

Well he caused so much emotional turmoil for her I can't imagine her stringing him along. She also wasn't the type and sleeping with someone she didn't love appalled her. Balanchine who had had such control over his select ballerinas was suddenly too old for these young women and it made him nasty. Friends who knew him for years and were close to his age told him that he was making an old fool of himself but he was so overwhelmed at the feeling of being betrayed he couldn't act any other way. An enormous but inevitable blow to his ego and vanity. With time he accepted that he was an aging man and could work with Farrell dispassionately involving himself totally in the work. And what work it was. We'll never see the likes of that company again.

Carole Landis was another one of Pat Di Ciccio's tricks. She slept with all the wrong people - when she worked as a band singer in San Francisco, she turned tricks on the side and when she landed a job in the chorus at Warner's she was a regular fuck of Busby Berkeley who featured her prominently in HOLLYWOOD HOTEL and VARSITY SHOW. But Berkeley was emotionally damaged and mercurial and beat her up. She next moved on to Hal Roach who cast her in ONE MILLION B.C. In addition to fucking Roach, she also enjoyed the huge cock of her co-star Victor Mature. Zanuck bought her contract from Roach and in 1941-42, she was Zanuck's favorite lay. When Carole told Zanuck she wanted to stop her mid-afternoon blowjobs, he fucked her over by putting her into mini supporting roles and forgettable B-movies. Fast forward to her post-war affair with Fox's big British import Rex Harrison. Carole wanted to marry Harrison but Zanuck told Harrison to dump her, showing him nude photos of her San Francisco whoring. Rex dumped her, she took an overdose of sleeping pills.

That film in R107 was directed by Dorothy Arzner, one of the first lesbian directors in Hollywood. She also directed Joan Crawford. This is her with Joan on the set (yes, that is a woman).

Re Carole Landis: Was it common for the press to publish photos of a suicide?

Do we know if Ethel slept around to get parts? Was Fred Mertz a dom top?

It's been speculated that Landis didn't intend to kill herself. She'd done the overdose thing before and called friends who helped her. This time either the friends didn't pick up or she didn't get the call through before she passed out.

R113 She left a suicide note to her mom.

OMG! If you Google "Lucille Ball Nude" you are some hilarious -- and frightening -- pics.

The profile pic is the only one, right? (Purported non-fake)

As far as I can tell yes r116, I also got quite a scare when I searched for the nude photos!

R70 Actually Lucille Ball almost replaced Joan on The Lucy Show. Her episode is terrible and she is drunk throughout the episode. The final dance number is really bad, too; Joan can barely dance it. Lucy said, "I thought you became famous for being a dancer..." which was sort of a bitch move but Joan apparently caused a lot of problems during the filming.

YAWN. Everyone knows most actresses (any many actors) were prostitutes. Hollywood was the biggest prostitution ring.

I love Joan and Lucy, but I’m blaming Lucy for what happened with that episode. She knew what she was getting with Joan, plus Lucy was apparently a beast at that point and poor Joan just couldn’t handle it. I think they even had to call Desi in to help.

It just dawned on me that if Desi was running a casting couch at Desilu (in addition to whatever other fooling around he might have been doing), it might have been especially horrible for Lucille to have her husband do what she had experienced from other studios earlier in her career.

[quote]She knew what she was getting with Joan, plus Lucy was apparently a beast at that point and poor Joan just couldn’t handle it.

Joan is reported to have quipped when it was over, "And they call ME a bitch!"

I hate sitcom episodes with celebrity guest stars.

That "You look just like [them]" is so lazy and not funny after a thousand times.

But I do love how they had Joan Crawford on the phone turning down A-List pictures because she was so busy. Sure, Joan.

So the carpet DID match the drapes, at least before the redhead gimmick.

Imagine being the photographer's assistant who had to hand-tint her firecrotch in the primitive sepiatone photos of nude Lucy!

Anyone who can out cunt Crawford - well, that's quite an accomplishment

Have you noticed that face lifts pre-2000s were superior and more natural looking? Lucy's facelift was better than the ones done today, as were the ones performed on other stars of her era. This is true for male actors, as well. Why is that?

Does anyone know when she had her first facelift?

Gary or no Gary, it seems clear now why Lucy after initially accepting the Angie Dickinson part in Dressed to Kill, ultimately turned it down.

Lucille Ball did some nudes but they were just nudes, not pornography (Joan Crawford did some of THAT). I guess she needed the money. By the way, the nudes showed she had no chest at all.

Aren't those old-fashioned facelifts rather risky? Surgeons might be reluctant to do them in litigation-happy America.

I thought Lucy was afraid of going under the knife for plastic surgery and used string, tape, and wigs to get her look. I thought I read that, but I sure someone on here can confirm or correct.

Give Lucy a break. She ended her years being step-grandmother to Robin Strasser's kids.

Lucy was a Ziegfeld Girl on Broadway. It was just a given "generous" men would gravitate to those ladies

That's Berkeley's best Warner Bros production number. Too bad the film is a snooze.

Desi was a drunk and a serial cheater and you people are trying to make me out to be a whore????

Nobody said they loved Desi.

Desi had knees and I'm sure that Lucy had probably reached a point where she was tired of him, drunk and stinking of cigars, crawling on top of her. Even though he was probably the great love of her life.

R127 I think it's because they were just refining noses and smoothing wrinkles. Now they are changing the entire facial structure and giving everyone the same trout lips, chipmunk cheeks and squinty eyes.

Th old plastic surgery left them individuals.

Thank you R7. That put a lump in my throat!

When the hell was Lucille in the Follies, r133???

"The casting couch is nothing more than networking. Suck that dick. Spread those legs. But make sure you have something to back it up, because a fuck only lasts 15 minutes."

And back it, she did.

Miss Stanwyck, go help Heath put out the fire in the barn.

r111. Thats a very good question. I don't know. Landis' suicide was a big deal as there had not been a major Hollywood suicide for many years - I can't recall when the previous notable one was.

Lupe Velez committed suicide in 1944, four years before Landis.

So, r142, she was fired! If that story is even true. I still remember my choreography for the 3-D number!

These were used for the 3-D number Stanwyck was in.

[quote] When the hell was Lucille in the Follies, [R133]???

And was she Sally or Phyllis?

Lucille was a Stella.

Lucy DID have plastic surgery. She had her eyes done but the operation didn't go well. Turns out she had skin that was so delicate it took forever to heal. I don't think she had any more work done after that.

R143, Marilyn's dead body was photographed while still in her bed @ 2:05.

But was that Monroe photo published in a newspaper straight after her death?

There’s multiple nude photos of Betty white including ones she did for a card set. None of them are explicit but no it’s not just one fake nude. She denied that there were nude pics of her and Alan Ludden, but the others do look like her.

R149, Lucy had keloid type skin, which would leave unsightly scars after plastic surgery, so she never underwent a facelift.

Are there any pre fame pics of Betty White to compare?

Lucie Arnaz has gone silent on social media.

She has not posted on her Facebook page since Mother's Day, when she posted a tribute to her mother.

I never liked Lucy but hearing about how she made it to the top makes me change my opinion. One tough bitch. Good for her.

R151, Probably in a sleazy tabloid or two.

R151 it was quite common then. Look at the black dahlia case, photographers likely destroyed evidence walking around the unsecured crime scene. Police would allow the press to get a few pictures or a cop would allow a reporter to take pictures for a bribe.

The status of the deceased didn't matter? I would have thought highers ups would want to keep photos like that out of the press.

Thank you, r144! I should have remembered that.

Everyone should follow "You Must Remember This".

R160, The podcaster behind You Must Remember This manipulates facts to support her story. She can't be trusted.

Lupe seems too much a fighter to have committed suicide.

R155 Maybe Lucie is tired of defending the choice of Kidman over Messing to play her mother in the biopic being made. I don’t think the film is going to be humorous. I think it’s going to be a sad, dramatic story about Lucille and Desi’s relationship falling apart while they were “Being the Ricardos.”

[quote]He married a 17-year-old Gloria Vanderbilt and beat her black and blue.

Which is where I got my inspriation for Gloria Vanderbilt jeans.

Lucy's nude is a publicity photo from Goldwyn's Roman Scandals starring Eddie Cantor from 1933.

R133

Wild old men who give you jewels and sables, only live in Aesop's Fables.

Life upon the wicked stage, r166.

[quote] It's not at all surprising that so many actresses worked as nude models and prostitutes and used the casting couch. As Marilyn Monroe (another former nude model and call girl said), if you didn't go the casting couch route, there were 50 other girls who would. That was the price of fame.

Somehow I really doubt Katharine Hepburn, Irene Dunne, Donna Reed or Dorothy McGuire worked as nude models or prostitutes.

It's my understanding that Beulah Bondi did, r168.

*Before anyone says Hepburn modeled nude for a statue, I know that, but that was art, not porn. I assume the poster is talking about nude photos.

R169

I imagine it was titled Nude With Cigarette.

Irene Dunne was in her thirties and already married (IIRC). by time she arrived in Hollywood.

In fact Ms. Dunne's nickname "First Lady of Hollywood" was derived from she was the first (and likely last) lady that place had ever seen.

Dr. Francis Dennis Griffin and Irene Dunne had a long, successful and by all accounts very happy marriage that only ended with his death.

Dunne had spent her youth in musical theater and I doubt theatrical directors and producers were more upstanding than those in Hollywood.

Nobody wanted to fuck Hepburn. That’s why she needed the services of Scotty Bowers.

Love Dunne...

I'm sure Donna Reed had to suck some dicks to get a movie contract. She was just a little farm girl from Iowa with no connections.

Likely Irene Dunne and Dorothy McGuire did too. Don't let their public images fool you.

Irene Dunne had been a big Broadway star before going to Hollywood. She had support from people like Oscar Hammerstein II and Jerome Kern. It was a different situation for her.

Now, if you're going to tell me slept with Kern and Hammerstein, I'm all ears and nothing would surprise me.

One of the greatest crimes every committed was allowing Americans to buy into Hollywood's wholesome view of the world from 1950s sitcoms and classic Hayes Code Movies. The truth is people were fucking, they were always fucking. Your grandma fucked. Your mom fucked. Those actresses with wholesome images fucked. The idea of the chaste virgin keeping her cooch closed until marriage is myth.

People love sex! Surprise!

There probably are a few actresses who never had to fuck for roles. But the vast majority have--it's the way the business has worked for 100 years.

Kathy Bates?

Miss Landis...

Who was more talented: Carole Landis or Barbara Nichols?

Lucy had such beautiful skin.

R177 I can imagine Debbie Reynolds biting a guy's dick and claiming it was an accident. Word might soon get around not to mess with her.

Debbie Reynolds always had that dykey tomboy vibe.

Darwin Porter is a fat POS who writes garbage. None of his stories are true. He invents.

He may be, but saying an old Hollywood actress who did nude modeling and was fucking gangsters at 14 also did some sex work here and there is certainly believable.

r189, source?

Debbie Reynolds would have never, just read her memoir.

We all knew she was a whore.

Most of them fucked their way to the top.

Lucy and I turned tricks. Mrs. Trumble was our pimp.

That's fascinating r170, do we know what statue? I wasn't able to find anything when searching.

R170, Bette Davis posed nude for a statue in her youth, as she revealed in a PLAYBOY interview years ago.

Her revelation prompted a search and the statue was located in a Boston park.

The “author” is a creep after money.

The statue had apparently been removed for being so scandalous r194! Here's a photo of it from 1933, it's called "Wind and Spray," I guess it's been in a private collection ever since.

Myrna Loy also posed nude for a sculpture: When she was 16, she posed for Harry Winebrenner's semi-nude statue, titled "Spiritual", which remained in front of Venice High School throughout the 20th Century and can be seen in the opening scenes of the film Grease (1978). The "Spiritual" statue was vandalized in recent years, and a restoration is planned...

And what a story.....

[quote] Bette Davis posed nude for a statue in her youth, as she revealed in a PLAYBOY interview years ago.

They had to replace the original with a duplicate apparently r197. Fascinating story!

Hedy Lamar was the only actress brave enough to appear nude in a non-porn movie AND depicted a woman having an orgasm (Ecstacy). She also invented a frequency-hopping system for remotely controlling torpedoes during World War II. Wow.

I am quite sure that women back in the day did not fuck. It was beneath them. Now they stand in doorways grabbing men to drag them upstairs. I ascribe it to unhealthy food additives and air pollution.

[quote]The idea of the chaste virgin keeping her cooch closed until marriage is myth.

Tell me about it.

r194 see r172

[quote]She has not posted on her Facebook page since Mother's Day, when she posted a tribute to her mother.

Now that COVID restrictions are lifted, she's always down at the piano bar on Arenas in Palm Springs singing the score to "Their Playing Our Song."

What's Lucy up to these days, anyway?

"Their Playing Our Song."

Oh, my goodness dear!

R190, I was referring to Lucille Ball, not Debbie Reynolds.

[quote]One of the greatest crimes every committed was allowing Americans to buy into Hollywood's wholesome view of the world from 1950s sitcoms and classic Hayes Code Movies. The truth is people were fucking, they were always fucking. Your grandma fucked. Your mom fucked. Those actresses with wholesome images fucked. The idea of the chaste virgin keeping her cooch closed until marriage is myth.

Of course they did or we wouldn't be here. What are you even talking about? There are statistics, you know. And people used to get married earlier, particularly women. 18, 19 years old.

[quote] Now that COVID restrictions are lifted, she's always down at the piano bar on Arenas in Palm Springs singing the score to "Their Playing Our Song."

You almost landed it, toots. Too bad about that wipeout at the end.

Bea Benadaret was Lucy’s pimp.

R210 So THAT’S what Bea’s character Gertrude Gearshift the switchboard operator on the Jack Benny radio show was doing!

Should we start a countdown to this thread being hijacked by the multitudes (not) who managed to keep two threads about "They're Playing Our Song" running for months and months?

Can someone tell me who Lucie performs with in Palm Springs? And where is she performing?

She's performing in the parking lot of Stater Bros.

It's a lovely venue, r213 with great acoustics.

The Follies closed down, the McCallum's booked and a girl's gotta eat!

Lucille was a lot lizard.

"I am quite sure that women back in the day did not fuck"

Yeah, that's why there's no people today. Virginity = extinction

Lucie’s performing with the Statler Brothers? When did she go country and western? Larry should have talked her out of it.

Women didn't fuck. They had to lie back and think of England.

Does Chrissy Metz bring a 5-pound bag of flour to casting calls?

Fraud site CDAN turned this article into a blind. Not even trying anymore.

Lucille was always a whore. The week she arrived in Hollywood she slept with Louis B. Mayrer, David O. Selznick, Walter Brennan and John Wayne. Then one day a friend suggested she should get into motion pictues.

Again none of this is exactly earth shattering news...

Louis B. Mayer, Harry Cohn, Jack Warner, Alfred Hitchcock and other men in Hollywood molested women barely out of their teens (think Judy Garland), and any other young female foolish enough to want to be in motion pictures.

Marilyn Monroe, Kim Novak and many others were passed around like lumber jack camp toys. And while they were busy with young women a few men like Henry Willson were busy with young men or boys doing exactly same thing really.

There wasn't anyone to complain to, and even if women (or those men) did, no one cared or blamed the accusers for their plight.

One must remember concept of sexual harassment just didn't exist back then, nor did it really take hold until the not too distant past. If any female complained about rape, forceful touching, etc... first words out of LE or anyone else was "did you lead him on?".

Speaking of Henry Wilson, did anyone catch the Netflix treatment of Rock Hudson staring Jim Parsons?

By all accounts Rita Hayworth managed to keep out of Harry Cohn's bed. Joan Crawford found her pride (heaven knows where she got it from), and told Harry Cohn to "keep it in our pants, I've having lunch with Joan and the boys (HC's wife and children) tomorrow.

It was an open secret that Harry Cohn expected sex from any actress he signed onto contract. Previous examples not withstanding there must have been far more "yes" responses than "no".

[quote]Can someone tell me who Lucie performs with in Palm Springs? And where is she performing?

Sheild's Date Gardens. She performs the score of "Their Playing Are Song" for you if you buy a bag of dates.

It still happens & it’s only gotten worse. I had to blow a guy to get onto the Universal studio tour. Turns out I still needed a ticket. He wasn’t a movie producer. He was just some dad with a frigid wife. #sameasiteverwas

In explaining her career, Lucille Ball once said, "God didn't give me much up here [pointing to her head], but he gave me enough down there."

I saw “Mulholland Drive,” I know what goes on in Hollywood.

R125 That got a genuine lol outta me.

As far as facelifts, Lucy did have extraordinary bone structure. My stepmother, who is a sort of LA society lady in her 80s, looks very much like Lucy and unlike her pulled-tight friends has never had work done and still looks great. I guess those cheekbones hold it all up somehow.

Remember that scene in “The Godfather” (it was in the book if not the movie, can’t recall) where a tearful 12-year-old girl is seen being escorted in and out of the studio head’s office by her mother? Those stories surely have been around forever.

R230 It's called "SHOW BUSINESS" cause you need to show your snatch if your want to stay in the business.

Lucie will be moving her latest production to H3K.

She'll perform for an audience of tens, and during the upbeat numbers the bears will waddle out from the AC and accompany her on tambourine!

Yes you need to know how to get a head.

In another of his books, Puzo had a line that always stayed with me: "There is no such thing as sexual harassment in the movie business. You offer up your ass for sale just by going in."

R234 Yes – sadly, I look at every star and wonder what they had to do.

Why did Lucy put Vaseline on her teeth?! Surely there's a better way to not get dry mouth... just the thought of that texture makes me want to gag.

Aldo Rey is the only person to publicly admit he had sex to get a role. Out of how many who actually had to?

Vaseline on teeth is to make sure your lips don't stick to your teeth.

R230

Great minds think alike!

Have been thinking about that scene which is in both the book and film "The Godfather" IIRC from start of this thread.

It wasn't just adult young women forced into quid pro quo situations, but many mothers basically pimped their daughters out for a chance of fame and whatever in Hollywood.

It wasn't just the mothers of girls!

Natalie Wood's mother urged her to be "nice" to men who could advance her career.

Suppose one thing to keep in mind about all this was the times.... World of say early 1900's wasn't that much different than 1800's or even 1700's. Sex was a currency (one of the few women had) that could be used to their advantage. From great courtesans, to queens (think Anne Boleyn), females used what they had to get what they wanted or needed. Some did it by force, others willfully.

Pre-code Hollywood did a much better job of showing the more gritty but very real world. Take Barbara Stanwyck's "Baby Face" where the heroine basically sleeps her way out of poverty into positions of wealth and power. This was the reality of 1920's, 1930's and even 1940's America for most part.

As Miriam Aaron quips in "The Women" she came from a world where " a woman has to come out on top or it's just too darn bad"

Set up for scene above was that Barbara Stanwyck's character father basically pimped his daughter out.

[quote] Why did Lucy put Vaseline on her teeth?

Easier to give blowjobs.

[quote] It wasn't just adult young women forced into quid pro quo situations, but many mothers basically pimped their daughters out for a chance of fame and whatever in Hollywood.

It was a fair question but horribly expressed. when Whoopi clumsily asked her rape rape comment. Was it rape, an illegal but voluntary encounter, or was it rape rape, a forcible assault without consent. It was then explained to Whoopi how Polanski had drugged the girl and she left the conversation.

[quote] Why did Lucy put Vaseline on her teeth?

Many actresses did during the golden age. Vaseline prevented lipstick from smearing on their teeth. Besides it making you look like a vampire, older formulae of lipstick tended to stain enamel. (And yes, "formulae" is the correct plural when talking about chemistry.)

Sam Fuller in one of his early 60s films, I forget which one I saw it so long ago, reveals the villain to be a pedophile of very young girls. The actress he uses is very young maybe 11 or 12, definitely not 16, but it is done entirely through editing very subtly but clearly and it has enormous impact. So The Godfather could have done the same and still kept the same rating. Seems like Fuller was braver than Coppola.

"Louis B. Mayer, Harry Cohn, Jack Warner, Alfred Hitchcock and other men in Hollywood molested women barely out of their teens (think Judy Garland), and any other young female foolish enough to want to be in motion pictures."

I don't think all movie moguls were "molesters." I'm sure they enjoyed women but I don't think all of them were hounds. As for Judy Garland...I think all her tales of everybody at MGM being hot for her 14 year old hunchbacked little bod are pure horseshit. She was plain and pudgy and humpbacked and men were trying to lay her like crazy? With all those beautiful women at MGM and they lust after HER? I think all that was a figment of Judy's fevered imagination, especially her claim that L. B. Mayer wanted her sexually. She told a tale of how Mayer would say something like "Judy, you sing from the heart!" or "Judy, you sing from here!" and put his hand on her tit. If he did that, and it's doubtful that he did, my guess it was just Mayer being a dork. I don't think he was trying to tell her "Judy, I want my tubesteak in your hot little patootie, you bodacious little hunchback, you!"

[quote]Nope, I mean, "Their Playing Our Song" a musical interpretaion written by Lucie Arnez and Laurence Luckinbill. Starring Lucie Arnez and Laurence Luckinbill. Produced by Lucie Arnez and Laurence Luckinbill.

This way they avoid any licensing fees and keep the royalties for themselves.

Wait till their version of "Maim" at the Desert Rose Playhouse once COVID settles down.

Broadway had its share of scoundrels, as well.

Every ingenue in NYC knew never to find herself alone with Richard Rodgers.

Jed Harris was just as bad. He knocked up Ruth Gordon and she decided to have and keep the child, a son.

Ruth Gordon admitted to sleeping with around for parts.

For those who've never seen film "Baby Face" it's worth it to glimpse young John Wayne....

It's also worth price of admission to see just how explicit pre-code Hollywood films were....

Once Mr. Hays and his code came in things were cleaned up on film alright, but the rest of sleaze and filth that happened on other side of cameras remained. It was job of armies of lawyers, lobbyists, PR agents, reporters like Hedda Hopper, along with LE, judges, and other elected or appointed political types on the take that did Hollywood studio's dirty work.

R248

There may have been the odd man out, but yes, by and large studio heads and others in charge or connected with Hollywood including agents and anyone else who could get in on the action were serial "molesters". There just isn't any other word for their behaviour that fits.

LOL...these threads are always the same....outraged old queens come on shrieking that it's ALL LIES about their beloved star!

Darwin Porter isn't a good writer but his books are very entertaining. He's smart enough to sprinkle in some actual real dirt with exaggerations and rumors to make it all great fun.

But, all of his books I've read do contain nuggets of truth. He might color up the stories a bit here and there but yeah, Lucy had a past and Brando was a big ole bisexual slut and Hepburn was a huge dyke.

Deal with it.

[quote] I think all her tales of everybody at MGM being hot for her 14 year old hunchbacked little bod are pure horseshit. She was plain and pudgy and humpbacked and men were trying to lay her like crazy? With all those beautiful women at MGM and they lust after HER?

Honey, we're talking about straight men. Whether Garland was a beauty or a hunchback is irrelevant. She was 14 and therefore fresh meat, easily manipulated. Straight men would fuck a molted snakeskin laying on the ground......

Does it really have to be stated that the person who demands the sex isn't necessarily operating purely from a place of lust?

R256 For the likes of R248, apparently yes

[quote]I think all her tales of everybody at MGM being hot for her 14 year old hunchbacked little bod are pure horseshit

She doesn't have a bunch of tales, she has the one that you repeated, and it isn't outrageous at all to think that someone would cop a feel of a 14 year old if they had the opportunity. It's old-fashioned thinking to say only pretty ladies get raped or molested.

Judy was also MGM's bright new singing star. That gave her a certain cache in addition to her being very young at the time. Creepy men on a power trip would totally try to hit that.

Shirley Temple also claimed Arthur Freed exposed himself to her. She giggled and her brand-new MGM contract was cancelled.

[quote]Shirley Temple also claimed Arthur Freed exposed himself to her.

I bet this was her reaction.

Also an unpleasant memory for Barrie Chase was Freed coming from behind her and grabbing her breasts. So isn't it possible Freed was abusing other young girls in his unit among all those he was using for his teen musicals? I doubt Temple was the only one he exposed herself to. Didn't Deanna Durbin call it a shit business?

'exposed himself'

I wonder how Freed behaved when he signed Dolores Gray. Her mother had a fearsome reputation.

The redhead, r238? Uses enough to grease a flagpole.

[quote]Straight men would fuck a molted snakeskin laying on the ground......

Are we gay men any better?

[Quote] Are we gay men any better?

DLers are. They don't even TRY to have sex.

[quote] Are we gay men any better?

We do generally seem to seek out those who would be able to consent!

We may pick fuggos or unavailable men but they are old enough to consent

I wasn't talking about the whole consent thing. I was just talking about fucking anything that moves.

R266 Gay men are certainly better: they'd do it only to Gucci snakeskin.

r 262: And Ann Miller referred to Lucille Bremer as "Arthur Freed's pussy."

The moderately talented, charisma-free June Haver certainly fucked the right people at Fox, going from a three-second bit as a hat-check girl in "The Gangs All Here" (1943) to a flashy supporting role in HOME IN INDIANA the following year to starring in the Technicolor musicals IRISH EYES AE SMILING (also 1944...coincidentally the year Zanuck returned to the studio after a stint with the Office of War Information) ) WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE? (1945, with a Weill-Gershwin score, no less) and THE DOLLY SISTERS with Betty Grable. (Haver fucked producer George Jessel for that). Haver publicly presented herself as a good little Catholic girl, but Grable (who despised her) described her "She had a Bible in one hand and condoms in the other."

[quote]Haver publicly presented herself as a good little Catholic girl, but Grable (who despised her) described her "She had a Bible in one hand and condoms in the other."

Well, she did become a nun, at one point (in 1953) so I guess she was somewhat serious about religion.

[quote]LOL...these threads are always the same....outraged old queens come on shrieking that it's ALL LIES about their beloved star! Darwin Porter isn't a good writer but his books are very entertaining. He's smart enough to sprinkle in some actual real dirt with exaggerations and rumors to make it all great fun. But, all of his books I've read do contain nuggets of truth. He might color up the stories a bit here and there but yeah, Lucy had a past and Brando was a big ole bisexual slut and Hepburn was a huge dyke. Deal with it.

Well, as Jean Brodie said, 'For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like.' Many of us don't want to waste our time reading a bunch of bullshit and would rather read a factual biography.

[Quote] and condoms in the other."

Sensible.

[Quote] He was a fuss-budget. He hadn't quite progressed to being a lint picker, but he was already an ash-tray emptier, and that's just about as set in his ways as a man can get.

Was June speaking in code?

[quote]Are we gay men any better?

Yes R266, we'd put the snakeskin on a chaise lounge or divan.

GASP!

[quote] Dr. Loftus contacted a local celebrity friend, Lucie Arnaz. He said, “Lucie, I need your help recruiting people to make masks and gowns or we are going to be in big trouble.” Lucie replied, “Whatever you need, I’m there for you!” Lucie began calling trusted friends who are in the entertainment industry including costume makers and designers from local entertainment venues, such as CVRep Playhouse in Cathedral City and The Purple Room in Palm Springs. They began ramping up PPE production of their own at the 500 Building in Palm Springs.

Dolly Sisters does have this ultra-glam number, r271....

Getting back to Lucy, did her scandalous pics show full split beaver or merely naughty glimpses of her manicured bush?

Just tatas.

r277: Love "Powder, Lipstick & Rouge" - a testament to the genius of Orry-Kelly!

The jaw-dropping 'Dark Town Strutters Ball" number where Grable and Haver (in black face and pigtails) dance and sing (in bad French) while blackface chorus girls swan around with watermelons and fried chicken on their heads used to be on YouTune but I think it's been deleted.

Betty Grable always had a punchable face.

Yeah, but million-dollar legs, too.

Not even the producer's wife was immune from sexual assault

at 1:01

Were the Rodenberrys married then?

Betty Grable should know about condoms, she's the one who Tyrone Power broke up with because she smelled funny 'down there' and when she went to the doctor he found an old condom stuck in her lady cave...

Betty Grable didn't have a cock and balls. Of course, Tyrone Power thought she smelled funny down there.

Lucille Bremmer was very beautiful and a fabulous dancer. Just look at the Coffee Time number from Yolanda and her two numbers in Ziegfeld Follies. Nobody can dance like that today. There isn't the training and people start too late anyway except for ballet training.

Bremer

She was a fine dancer and nothing wrong in the looks department, r287, but she was undistinguished. She didn't have the seductive sex appeal of Charisse, the perky personality of Vera-Ellen or the French gamine appeal of Caron. But...the gal could do her steps.

Well I think she could do more than steps. She could dance and had a commanding presence. MGM had a surfeit of riches and now we don't even have one.

By the way Ziegfeld Follies is coming out on bluray and though to put it kindly it is uneven it does have a few numbers that should be dazzling. WA is doing revelatory work on their blurays.

If she'd had a commanding presence, r290, she would have had a longer career.

Well June Haver had even less of a commanding presence and was not nearly as fine a dancer but had a bigger career so who knows why these things happen?

Bremer was a great dancer with a pretty face and nice tits. But the camera just didn't see her. Watch her scenes with Garland in Meet Me in St. Louis or her scenes with Astaire or Van Johnson in Ziegfield Follies. It's like she's not even there. A charisma black hole. It's why her career died when Freed got tired of banging her.

Haver had a bigger career, r292, but not a big career. Mitzi Gaynor had a bigger movie career than Haver and Mitzi didn't have a big movie career.

Well I like her so when Freed got tired of banging her I would have taken over.

I certainly don't dislike her, r295. I love Coffee Time. She was a superb dancer. But she didn't have that extra something to go with it that would set her apart.

R293 Van Johnson wasn't in Ziegfeld Follies. You must be thinking of Till The Clouds Roll By.

Bremer didn't have a lot of star quality, her career kind of petered out quickly, but she also retired young. Who knows if she would have ended up as the mom on a TV sitcom, or something. People have 2nd, or 3rd, careers, sometimes they didn't seem like "all that" in the movies (Raymond Burr) then ended up starring on big hit TV shows. By the way, she was always good dancing with Astaire, all their numbers together were great.

Lucille Bremmer could have rebranded as a vamp in noirs, if she'd been able to lower her voice a bit.

She really couldn't act, but even those people sometimes surprise you and end up successful. Anyhow, he married a very rich Mexican guy and ended up running a resort, I think, and later she had a boutique in one of the CA beach towns.

*she

I like when she tells off Judy when she steals her big number. For the good of the show?! Ha! Judy knew the song was going to be a big hit and wanted it for back-stabbing self!

Not the most perfect voice to dub her with...

I love that number it's such a great song. Johnson is very charming in it and breaks the fourth wall.

r289:

That TECHNICOLOR in the "LimeHouse Blues" number! The 18th century Chinoiserie design! And I love "Costumes designed by SHARAFF" on the title card.

Bremer's problem with charisma may have come down to basic physicality. Watch her in the "Coffee Time" number and you can see that she has a much smaller head and smaller facial features than Sinatra. Most successful actors have giant heads, exaggerated bone structure, and big features. The camera adores faces like that.

Though she was pretty, Lucille didn't have that kind of face.

She didn't give much of anything with her face, beyond smiles.

Why has Lucille B. usurped Lucille B.'s thread??? Back to Lucille B....

Lucille Ball was a communist.

Lucille Ball and her modest talents have been discussed to death.

r307: Thank you for uploading that ....I never knew it existed. That was...strange. So odd seeing Vivian Vance and Bill Frawley playing themselves.

The musical numbers and performers were dreadful.

"The musical numbers and performers were dreadful.

I think that has something to do with us not knowing it existed, r310.

By 1959, the need to suck up to Hedda Hopper would have been waning. If you listen to the "You Must Remember This" podcast, she seems even more horrible than I recall reading in the past.

The Desilu players was her version of an acting school at the studio with some of the kinds of teaching that was common, esp. at biggerstudios during the real golden age. Robert Osborne was a member. No one really went on to become"stars", otherwise. Dick Kallman, who became an antique dealer and died in a grizzly murder did have a sitcom, though.

R311: The show is dreadful, but for a long time, Christmas episodes were excluded from syndication/rerun packages, perhaps because they could be difficult to run out of sequence. The "Donna Reed Show" had Buster Keaton in one that was never available until the show went to DVD. Now, no one cares about this stuff and the shows get run in teh middle of July.

Hedda's Hollywood...1960

R314 I love Lucy's Brendad moment at 4:12 when she pretends to see the camera for the first time: "Well, hello!"

I Love Luce Eel Balls, She Is Wonderfell, I Met Her Once In Pensavina!

Does Dick Kallman already have a thread on DL? A gay man and his partner are murdered in their fabulous NYC apartment which if full of antiques? Honestly, does anyone else think that is was a trick gone bad?

R317, How many elder gays can remember "Hank"?

I was 13 in 1965 and recall enjoying the series.

Dick Kallman also starred in the first national tour of How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, which was a big deal at the time. His costar was Dyan Cannon, who was almost unknown at the time.

There was a thread on Kallman. The most important fact for DL is that he was walker to Dolores Gray.

R321 What's a "walker to" Dolores Gray? He walked her dog? I'm sorry, I know nothing about what you're saying, and if it's an important fact, I need to know what it is!

Carole Cook was probably the second most well known person to come out of that workshop other than Robert Osborne (who was a pretty bad actor - his Private Screenings interview with Alec Baldwin had a lot of clips of his early acting gigs. Glad he found a job he was good at).

Women of Gray's generation who did not have a husband (Gray was separated from hers, though they never divorced as she was Catholic) did not like to socialize without a male escort.

R323 Oh. And so he was her walker? Ok, I get it. Didn't know the term.

Desilu: The Story of Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz, by Coyne S. Sanders and Tom Gilbert, has so many interesting insdie facts about Lucy and Desi, even if it's not very well organized. There are a lot of things in it about the workshop. Lucy seems to have thrown herself into it, at the time her marriage to Desi was falling apart. She later had negative things to say about it. That she got jobs for some of them, and they didn't take the jobs (even though they were unknowns), that some didn't take the work seriously, etc.

Sometimes even married women had a gay friend walker if their husband was not interested in the social scene or didn't have time for it.

Cesar "Butch" Romero was a very popular walker in Hollywood for decades.

Bobby Short was a frequent walker for Gloria Vanderbilt.

I knew Carol Burnett's walker when she was in Moon Over Buffalo.

Didn't Carol Burnett marry her walker?

[quote]Didn't Carol Burnett marry her walker?

Not the gay guy. The third husband came later and was from California, not NY.

R318 & R319 I was 10 in 1965 and recall enjoying Dick Kallman. I was 8 in 1963 and recall enjoying Albert Finney in Tom Jones. I think I was Born That Way!

Lucy used to have her workshop guys escort her to things, Robert Osborne e. g.

The big problems with the show: 1) All of the backstage 'help' were more talented and distinctive than the workshop kids, who are blander than the Mouseketeers. Had Lucy, Desi, Bill and Viv appeared with them, the show would have been a lot more fun. 2) The original songs sucked. Lucy should have put up sone bucks for GOOD material.

She just 𝙝𝙖𝙙 to top her movie career with...

[quote]The podcaster behind You Must Remember This manipulates facts to support her story. She can't be trusted.

Plus, her shrill chronic up-speak and terrible vocal production makes the podcast unlistenable to me.

R336 omg same. That voice is unbearable.

Her "Six degrees of "Song Of the South" podcast are fantastic, with lots of good research. She even goes into its impact in its reissues into the 1970s.

Dick Kallaman was great person who deserved better to die way he did, and worse treatment of his murder by then NYPD who summed things up as just another "fag" who had it coming.

Looks like Charles Grosso was released on parole last year....

His department Identification number (DIN) is 81A4234

None of items stolen at time of murder were ever recovered.

Dick didn't really have the pop touch.

R324

Gay men were popular "walkers" because wealthy or any other husband didn't have to worry about them making moves on their wives. Many husbands hated attending certain events or parties so were more than happy to have "walkers" do the honors. Even going so far as footing the bills, use of car (or limo and driver), etc....

A gigolo OTOH couldn't be trusted so they were often discouraged.

Of course if you're a gay man like Beverly Leslie it would be your "business associate"...

[Quote] Ten years older than Kallman, the 56 year-old [Gray] enjoyed the company of her antiques-dealing ex-show biz friend. Wilson wrote: “They were seen at parties, and attended the recent opening of “Harold and Maude”wearing His and Hers full-length mink coats.”

Wasn't around for her heyday, but have always loved what have seen online and elsewhere of Dolores Gray. She must have been a hoot to hang out with...

Ms. Gray also took care of her instrument and thus could keep on going.....

You try smiling for hours of endless takes under hot lights with heavy old fashioned lipstick. That's why actresses smeared their teeth with Vaseline, as noted above it kept lipstick off their teeth, and helped with sticking etc....

Stage and screen make-up then (and some of it still today) is very heavily pigmented. In part to give staying power, but also you need something that will stand up to bright lights and film. Stuff sold for women to use over counter wasn't that much better. Hence all those comments from laundries about how difficult lipstick stains were to remove. This and or stains from same being used as a plot device (wife or whoever discovering lipstick marks on her man's shirt, handkerchief, etc....

[quote]She liked "clean" entertainment and considered herself someone who provided it.

So...she gave us MAME.

"It is generally acknowledged that the extremely well-heeled Lucy kicked in $5 million to get the project off and running, on the proviso that she would be afforded first refusal to play the title role. At that time Angela Lansbury had become ensconced in the Mame role on Broadway and was wowing audiences night after night, so Lucy went along to see her performance. In fact, she even ventured backstage to congratulate Angela, telling her she was amazing in the part and a certainty to land the film role. According to Angela, she was touched by Lucy’s praise until she noticed the red-headed comedienne sitting in the wings during the performance – taking notes. No stranger to Hollywood intrigue and behind the scenes politics, Angela knew there and then that she would be most unlikely to be playing Mame on the screen."

Mame was one instance where Gary or someone should have told Lucy Ball firmly "Hell no!".

Lucille Ball had plenty of company from "old Hollywood" who didn't like direction films and even some television programming was taking by the 1970's.

They threw their muscle, money or whatever other weight they could to get wholesome, decent family entertainment on large and small screens.

IIRC late Jerry Herman was so upset with Mame film he never again agreed to sell rights to one of his musicals. Because he had for Mame much of his input (including about Lucy Ball) was sidelined, and there wasn't anything he could do by that point.

Didn't know Bette Davis was interested...

[quote]They threw their muscle, money or whatever other weight they could to get wholesome, decent family entertainment on large and small screens.

And then when that didn’t work, they all accepted guest starring spots on tv’s highly sexualized show The Love Boat.

R350

Oh they did more than that, or have you forgotten "The Family Viewing Hour"?

Angela Lansbury wasn't ever a movie star, she never carried a movie other than one Disney mediocrity. Maybe on stage she had huge star quality (I saw her in Gypsy when I was a kid, and she was great). But I'm not surprised she didn't get Mame. Not that Lucy was any good. But I think Lansbury was dreaming if she thought she'd be Hollywood's choice.

They should have made it with L*I*Z*A

[quote]But I think Lansbury was dreaming if she thought she'd be Hollywood's choice.

She must have realized that there was a line of actresses who would have been considered before her. Julie Andrews, Doris Day, Ann Margaret

R354 Shirley MacLaine wouldn't have been a bad choice, even if her singing voice is not great.

Frank Sinatra wanted Lucille Ball for part of Mrs. Iselin in the film, The Manchurian Candidate. John Frankenheimer who had worked previously with Angela Landsbury put his foot down to get her for the part, and that as they say was that.

On another note is it just me or has someone scrubbed Mame from Lucy Ball's Wiki page?

[quote] Angela Lansbury wasn't ever a movie star

She could sing which would have been useful in Mame. But to Hollywood talent doesn't matter.

It doesn’t surprise me. Ginger Rogers could never shed that floozy look. Even as an 8 year old I was aghast at her overdone appearance in the Barkley’s Of Broadway. Fancy hairdo, chunky jingling charm bracelet, and scarf, and the pallet of heavy makeup......

Angela singing "Love Is Only Love" during the first piano run through of Mame. It was soon cut but then later given to Barbra to sing in the film of Dolly. I much prefer Angie's quiet sincerity and clean technique to Barbra's endless scooping and vulgar overemoting

By late 1960's early 1970's Lucille Ball had a well deserved and hard fought to win reputation in Hollywood as a broad with balls. To be a woman in that industry at that time you needed a set of balls, otherwise the guys who mostly otherwise rank things would treat you no better than the starlets they fucked (and fucked over).

Lucy Ball having come up through old Hollywood knew the score and played the game; she saw a property was interested in, ponied up enough money to make her the biggest swinging dick in room, and the rest as they say is history. It is something any other producer, studio head, mogul or whatever would have done.

Lucy Ball was still a force to be reckoned with in Hollywood at that time and largely loved by American public, especially in middle America. God knows studios kept giving her shows when it was clear her shtick was wearing thin...

From a business perspective Mame did nearly $90 million gross box office on a budget of $12 million. It ranks low compared to other films released in 1974, but isn't anywhere near bottom.

While Lucille Ball's professional reputation as an actress took hits, at least Mame wasn't a huge bad investment....

Another look at things film wise from 1974.

It likely wasn't exactly heartening that top grossing films that year were often the same sort of "smut" Lucille Ball and others were trying to compete against. Blazing Saddles and Young Frankenstein kicked Mame's butt at box office. But then again so did Benji and Freebie and the Bean, so there was quite a range.

Not only is Lucy bad but the whole film is bad. Poorly directed and designed as well as acted. It is an eyesore. Maybe the title number is good but it sinks in the cesspool surrounding it. Maybe if Cukor had directed it with Lansbury in the late 60s it might have been respectable. It is also dirty and crude in that wholesome family movie way that makes it stink like a family bathroom after the kids use it.

Can no longer fine the episode of Dick Cavett from the early '70s when he asked her about her reputation as a tough business woman and she was bleeped while saying, 'I'm a bitch in the boardroom, a bore in the bedroom and a bear on the toilet'. The best part was when the camera cut to a close-up reaction shot of Cavett he was making Lucy's trademark 'spider face'.

Ball has been overrated as an exec---Herb Solow's tv academy interview makes clear how little input she had at Desilu and the company's survival mostly as a rental studio had more to do with inertia than with her. Studios didn't throw shows at her---she had a contract with CBS and revamped her show twice---first when Vance retired and then after Desilu was sold to Paramount, where she retained ownership of the new show.

Maclaine had had a string of flops from the mid-60s until "The Turning Point" which was more of an ensemble part. I often find her annoying on film, but she probably would have been a decent Mame.

Lucy is aghast at being asked if she had ever modeled nude @ 21:15 in this 1982 interview.

How do they know Lucille was a red-headed if life was black and white back then?

Lucy made several Technicolor movies in the 1940s at MGM. Everyone knew she was a red-head.

Plus, her hair color was mentioned or referred to regularly on "ILL".

"There wasn't anyone to complain to, and even if women (or those men) did, no one cared or blamed the accusers for their plight."

R223 Complain? Honey, it's called publicity.

"She doesn't have a bunch of tales, she has the one that you repeated, and it isn't outrageous at all to think that someone would cop a feel of a 14 year old if they had the opportunity. It's old-fashioned thinking to say only pretty ladies get raped or molested."

Oh, Judy Garland told a lot of tales. One of them was that Ray Bolger, Bert Lahr and Jack Haley tried to push her in back of them as they all skipped down the yellow brick road. She told the story on the Jack Paar show; she said the director finally bellowed out from his boom "YOU THREE DIRTY HAMS! LET THAT LITTLE GIRL IN THERE!" Of course the audience was enchanted and laughed heartily. But it didn't happen. Jack Haley happened to catch the show where she told that story. He said "It's untrue. It's untrue. How could you upstage anybody? For Christ's sake, we were linked arm in arm all the time."

That bit of info is from a good book, "The Making of the Wizard of Oz" by Aljean Harmetz. It went on to say "Long before her death, Judy Garland found it necessary to invent and reinvent her past, shaping its facts to suit her needs and anxieties. "She lied a lot", according to people who knew her. The lies gave her the same kind of relief, although not nearly as much relief, as liquor and what she called her "happy pills."

r370: The Harmetz book is very good indeed.

I'll probably hate myself the morning for doing this, but R366 see R345...

Lucille Ball was in various films of 1940's that were done in color. Her blazing red hair was totally on notice.

Color in print media had been around since early 1800's or so, but when Kodak invented and released Kodachrome for 8mm and 35mm film things shook up. Glossy magazines especially those aimed at women, teens, "fans", etc.. featured color covers even if everything else inside was still b&w.

People knew things were in color even when all they could watch was b&w television or films. In ILL Lucy herself or others repeatedly made reference to her red hair.

In episode where Lucy is supposed to be some Persian or whatever princess she has half black and red hair. This was because she hadn't gone to beauty parlor to have routine henna rinse. She quips to men calling her the princess "I'm not a princess, I'm a henna-rincess..."

In other episode of ILL (maybe same as above) Ricky has cut Lucy's household and personal budget. Thus she hasn't been to the beauty parlor. Ethel mentions her tenant and friend hasn't been to beauty parlor in several weeks and wearing a scarf indoors. "Just what does your hair look like under there?'. Lucy replies "It looks like I'm wearing a black beanie",

There are more.. When Lucy and Ethel are having a row Mrs. Trumbull tries to call them down by saying 'Mrs. Ricardo your as hot as your fiery red hair". Ethel shoots back "I'm as cool as her dark roots...".

Final example was when Lucy and Ethel steal John Wayne's footprints from Grauman's Chinese theater.

"Bad news- the morning paper's main headline reports the theft of John Wayne's footprints from Grauman's Chinese Theater, and the main suspects are a "middle aged dishwater blonde" and a "wild eyed frowsy redhead."

R372 I recently watched "DuBarry Was a Lady," which I believe was Lucy's first film with red hair. I literally gasped at the color in her first screen shot because her hair was so striking. It surely must have helped Lucy start to stand out from her competition. It's hard to find a photo that matches the color I saw in the film, but I've posted one that's very close.

Lucille Ball went from a brunette (brown) to blonde then finally a "red head".

It was famous Hollywood hairdresser and stylist Mr.Sydney Guilaroff who turned Lucille Ball from a blonde to redhead.

Irma Kusley, Ms. Ball's personal hairstylist for ILL and so forth states Lucy's hair color wasn't exactly a redhead, but more golden apricot.

She had tried coloring Lucy Ball's hair with standard permanent hair coloring but couldn't get shade desired. So a henna rinse was added over the dye, and that produced desired color.

There was one problem; the proper henna was very difficult to find in USA. Lucy Ball met a wealthy Arab sheik in Las Vegas of all places and explained her problem. The businessman said not to worry, he would have henna shipped from Middle East to Ms. Ball, and that he did. Irma Kusley kept it in a safe in her garage...

No surprises here. I’ve always known every “actress” is a whore at heart. They sucked any dick for camera time. From Louis B. Mayer to Harvey Weinstein. Oldest tale of time.

On another note Sydney Guilaroff became the first single may in state of California to adopt a child, a son he named Jon after Joan Crawford one of his great pals. State of California objected and mounted legal challenges, but eventually Mr. Guilaroff prevailed. Subsequently he adopted two other sons, one of them a former employee.

R377, In his autobiography, Guilaroff claimed he had a sexual affair with Garbo.

R378

That's what he lets on, and Ava Gardner is mentioned as well. But have a strong hunch like Greta Garbo Guilaroff went both ways. That or he like many other of his gay peers in Hollywood went to great lengths to hide his true inclinations.

Ester Williams outed 'Mr. Sydney" in her autobiography, and Scotty Bowers (the man who seems to have slept with every gay man in Hollywood), also claims he and Guilaroff had an affair.

Sydney Guilaroff as been covered on DL previously, and general consensus was he smelled cookies....

Ava went both ways too. I guess he chose her and Garbo for a reason...

*

R370: I remember watching Tonight Show reruns as a kid and Garland always had all kinds of entertaining stories. She was a good guest even in her declining years and Carson must have had her on often. But even as a kid, the stories seemed apocryphal.

Ball being a redhead was well established as part of her image by the time of ILL. It was her persona and really one of the few things that distinguished her from any other B-movie person.

Exactly, r382. They called her Technicolor Tessie because of it.

Gosh, Ball looked great with dark hair.

No, r384....she didn't.

Garland's Dietrich story is very funny. I bet Marlene wasn't very friendly to Judy after that.

[quote]That bit of info is from a good book, "The Making of the Wizard of Oz" by Aljean Harmetz. It went on to say "Long before her death, Judy Garland found it necessary to invent and reinvent her past, shaping its facts to suit her needs and anxieties. "She lied a lot", according to people who knew her.

I'm sure she lied and told tall stories, but a couple of years ago I saw a video someone put together of her on (I think) the Tonight show, telling a story about an act from her vaudeville days, where a guy did something like swallow kerosene and water, then was able to separately vomit up the kerosene and set it on fire, then vomit up the water to put the fire out People always figured she was making this up. So someone put a film of this guy doing the trick next to Judy telling the story. It was kind of amazing because her description was so accurate of this act she hadn't seen since she was a child. But she was said to have had a photographic memory anyway.

Judy Garland did have a photographic memory. She could read a script once and have it memorized. But when it came to her life she told a lot of whoppers. Liza and Lorna said she told them she would make up stories when she went to see her psychiatrist, for her own amusement and so as not to "bore" the doctor. No wonder psychiatry did her no good.

Judy did tell a lot of lies, but I believe that she got hit on by all the old pervs at MGM when she was a teenager. Men like Arthur Freed and Eddie Mannix were predatory creeps who tried to fuck every actress that walked on the lot--they considered it their right. A lot of the actors were predators, too. In the Lana Turner thread I mentioned that in the bio of Eddie Mannix I read, the author said that it was common knowledge on the lot that Judy had an affair with Spencer Tracy when she was 14/15. Nobody did anything about it.

Spence was a drunken old queen, so I doubt that he screwed Judy. He had an affair with Van Johnson and refused to finish a movie until Van recuperated from a car accident. The bosses wanted to replace Van.

R390, Spencer was pissed that Irene Dunne was cast in the fiilm, he wanted Hepburn.

For some reason I thought Louis B Mayer was the only studio exec who didn't do all that sex demands and stuff. He did a lot of other shady crap, I knew, but I thought he was puritanical about sex and uber sentimental about family. I was naive I guess.

But what drunken queen hasn't been with Judy? ... Half the men she married were gay.

Yeah, Spencer's alleged gayness makes the Judy story seem MORE true, not less. She loved older men and she loved gay men. Her own father died when she was 13, so having an affair with a much older sexually confused man right afterward tracks psychologically.

Sounds like the only person who truly loved her was her father. At 13 she was alone being exploited by everybody but she had nothing else. Nothing was going to save her. Probably living until her late 40s was torture.

Nothing was going to save her? Liza has lived to an old age and she's an alcoholic.

Watch the Netflix series called Hollywood. It features a plot-altered Rock Hudson and numerous other plots. It shows the real nepotism and animosity of the era Lucy was in. You had to suck cock to get in the door, you had to do tricks. It’s still that way today, in certain respects. Just read on Harvey Weinstein’s business tactic. Not to mention Henry Willson was the gay version in the forties.

Did they accept card tricks?

Liza had one big advantage over Judy: Vincente Minnelli adored her and lived into his 80s. He was also a powerful director/producer and could afford her a refuge from her mother when needed. Frank Gumm died much earlier and never had those resources.

Had Judy died earlier, Liza, Lorna, and Joey would have had fewer problems as young people. A lot of their trauma came from taking care of a drug-addicted and increasingly unstable mother. Liza escaped into her own stardom and early marriage (Peter Allen was gay but he DID help her keep Judy at a distance). Lorna tried to handle things for a while but had a nervous breakdown at 16 from taking care of Judy. She and Joey fled to her father's and never came back, which is why Judy was alone in London with her new husband when she died.

Lorna said in her autobiography that she spent most of her 20s partying rather than working on her career. By the time she sobered up, she was in her early 30s and it was too late to reach the heights Liza did. Liza didn't reach her party girl phase until she was already a star, but her habits helped cut her A-list movie star career short. Joey, of course, suffers from lifelong disabilities due to Judy's drug and alcohol abuse during her pregnancy with him.

TL; DR: Judy fucked up all her kids, and none of her husbands really protected their kids like they should have. Sid Luft tried, but the court system of the time worked against him. Vincente Minnelli should have tried harder: He had the clout and money to get full custody of Liza early on, but for some reason he never did.

[Quote] Lorna said in her autobiography that she spent most of her 20s partying rather than working on her career. By the time she sobered up, she was in her early 30s and it was too late to reach the heights Liza did.

Lorna conveniently leaves her acting ability out of the equation. Liza is limited but she can act and she has charisma to burn.

Liza's movie choices helped cut her A List career short.

Liza's one-time agent Stevie Phillips said in her book that she had a multi-picture deal set up for Liza when LIza fired her so she could be represented by her boyfriend Desi Arnaz Jr.'s agent. That agent sent Liza on the road for concerts. She enjoyed the tours: It was easy money and she could party all the time. However, she was away from Hollywood too long and her career went cold. Of course, these are the recollections of a rather bitter former employee, so who knows?

Lorna's attitude might have been a bigger problem. Even in her own book, she admits that she came across as too tough and abrasive in auditions and her agent had to tell her to tone it down and make nice. I read that she was offered Gloria in All in the Family but turned it down over billing and salary even though she was basically a nobody at that point. She sounded really entitled, and that and the cocaine abuse probably did for her.

By all accounts, Liza is lovely to work with. Lorna, not so much.

Lorna got a role in a Bill Kenwright UK touring production some years ago. I doubt he'd stand for bullshit. Lorna doesn't have IT and she's a genuinely bad actor, as her GYPSY bootleg attests.

I think Lorna has mellowed in later years. 1970s Lorna, by her own admission, sounds like a bitchy mess.

If she coulda been, she woulda been. And that's show business.

As a young woman, Lorna was more conventionally attractive than Liza and her voice was just as good. But she didn't have her sister's "It" factor AND she was a bitch who partied all the time and didn't work that hard. All of this resulted in her D-list career that heavily leans on her mother's legacy.

"Just as good" for standards/Broadway, which meant little by the 1970s and 1980s. Liza wouldn't have had the career she had based purely off her voice.

I agree, R408. Liza was the only one of Judy's children to inherit her mother's charisma. Like Judy, she can 'act' a song and really draw the audience in.

That Russell Todd guy was edible.

[quote]Sounds like the only person who truly loved her was her father.

Not enough to keep it in his pants.

Ouch! R411. But true. A lot of the instability in Judy's family came from Frank Gumm's inability to leave the teenage boys alone. They got run out of 2 towns because of it.

'Vincente Minnelli should have tried harder: He had the clout and money to get full custody of Liza early on, but for some reason he never did.'

Throughout the years of Liza's youth Minnelli's career until the early 60's was going great guns. He was always very ambitious and was obsessed with his films. I don't think at that point Liza's life was his major priority. By the mid 60s when his career had cooled and he was reduced to returning to Broadway Liza was starting to build her career.

Also his films of the early 60s were not big enough hits to turn down Warner's offer for My Fair Lady. He was not hot anymore. But I'm a huge fan of the film so I'm glad Cukor got it. Otherwise it would have become another Brigadoon, Kismet or Bells are Ringing.

" In the Lana Turner thread I mentioned that in the bio of Eddie Mannix I read, the author said that it was common knowledge on the lot that Judy had an affair with Spencer Tracy when she was 14/15. Nobody did anything about it."

"Nobody did anything about it" because it never happened. There is no biography of Judy Garland, none, that mentions her having an affair with Spencer Tracy when she was still a child. Spencer Tracy wouldn't have touched Judy Garland's humpbacked little body with a ten foot pole. And he was no "queen." He had affairs with beautiful women like Loretta Young and Ingrid Bergman. Women like that went after him, despite his being a very plain guy. I suppose it was his talent and lack of pretention that drew them to him. Anyway, the idea of him fucking Judy Garland while she was a a plump, unprepossessing little girl is laughable. Sounds like something Darwin Porter or Scotty Bowers would dream uo.

It's in this book, R415. Whether or not it's true I don't know, but the story comes from here.

Can't believe everything you read, R416, especially in books about Hollywood stars. There was some biography about Mickey Rooney that said somebody walked in on him getting a blowjob from Elizabeth Taylor who would have been 14 years old at the time. I don't believe that, either.

Spencer Tracy was like Humphrey Bogart in that they were surprisingly good looking when very young but they aged super fast.

Liz was saving her blow jobs for Mr. Right, not for Andy Hardy.

Who knows, but Mickey was the David Cassidy of his time....

R420, "Mickey Rooney claimed to have had a romance with Norma Shearer, but this has been refuted by Shearer family and friends. Shearer was often photographed with him because he was the highest-grossing star of 1939, but when she sensed that the teenager was intent on an affair, she had him kept away from her."

Well those who are protective of Shearer's legacy are going to say that. Though I can't imagine Shearer with him and yes she would take pictures with him as they were two top MGM stars.

Doris liked big dick. Why not Norma?

Rooney is probably just as unreliable a historian as Garland.

That Judy Garland lived long as she did, and didn't off herself while still young is a miracle in itself. The poor dear never really stood a chance at any sort of remotely happy normal life.

Her mother was an uncaring driven harpy who not unlike many other mothers of period saw getting her children into show business as one way out of poverty, and or perhaps a bad marriage. The father was bisexual who never wanted Judy to be born in first place, but since couldn't find anyone to perform an abortion on Judy's mother.....

[Quote] The poor dear never really stood a chance at any sort of remotely happy normal life.

Early in her married life, Debbie Reynolds would keep Judy company while Judy played hausfrau. The idea that Judy was worked into the ground all the time isn't exactly credible.

In his autobiography Rooney recalled the supposed blow jobs she gave him with her "soft, soft lips." Yech.

LB Mayer ordered Mickey to end his affair with the Widow Thalberg. Norma rebounded by marrying her ski instructor 13 years younger, but at least he wasn't a teenager this time.

R428, "In August 1939, while visiting the New York World’s Fair, Norma was introduced to the Warner Bros. star George Raft. A romance ensued, and it lasted for more than a year, ending only when Raft’s wife blocked a divorce by demanding a huge settlement."

"The poor dear never really stood a chance at any sort of remotely happy normal life."

I think Judy Garland's life could have been different if she'd been more mature. But she never really grew up; MGM wanted her to remain a child for as long as possible because it was profitable and from a very young age she was a pampered, indulged star who had everything done for her. She never matured. She never took responsibility for her own actions. No wonder her life was one bad decision after another.

[quote]Lorna said in her autobiography that she spent most of her 20s partying rather than working on her career. By the time she sobered up, she was in her early 30s and it was too late to reach the heights Liza did. Liza didn't reach her party girl phase until she was already a star, but her habits helped cut her A-list movie star career short.

Poor sweet Lorna. She was never going to be an A-lister. She just doesn't have the "IT" factor.

And Liza went as high as she could go. There really weren't a lot of roles she was right for because she was too distinctive. She's like Bette Midler, as long as she's playing a version of herself, she's great. But venture out of that wheelhouse and she's lost. Cher is really one of the few singers who has been able to turn in varying characterizations where the audience could actually see a character rather than just Cher being Cher.

[Quote] There really weren't a lot of roles she was right for because she was too distinctive.

I disagree. The 1970s was the era of the unconventional leading lady. If Marsha Mason could be a movie star into the early 1980s, so could Liza. Her picker was broken.

Typical. You make a Lucille Ball thread into a Judy Garland/Liza thread.

[quote]If Marsha Mason could be a movie star into the early 1980s, so could Liza. Her picker was broken.

Marsha could tone it down. Liza was constantly "ON". Plus I think Barbara Streisand, Shirley MacLaine, Sandy Duncan and Goldie Hawn had the corner on any roles that Liza may have been considered for. Liza could have been funny in "Private Benjamin" but she just didn't have the "princess" aspect. Liza could have done those G-rated Disney-ish movies that Sandy did, but she didn't quite have the innocence. And tv? She certainly wasn't going to show up on The Waltons or Little House on the Prairie or Alice or The Love Boat, and she didn't find her tv footing until Arrested Development.

Since this is a Lucy thread, an interesting story related to Judy and Liza (that I read in somewhere, but don't ask me where), was that when Judy and Sid and the other kids were going to Europe, Lucy offered to take Liza for a while. I think it was for 9 months or a year. So that Liza could stay in her school in LA, and other reasons. Vincente must not have been available at the time. I just thought this was interesting and haven't heard it often. I don't think staying with the Arnazes was the greatest, because Lucy and Desi has their own problems. Anyhow Liza apparently liked Desi Jr and Lucie a lot, though they were younger than her. Interesting she ended up having a relationship with Desi when they were older.

Had no idea...

Or even...

Liza was almost 30 (26), and Desi, Jr. was just 19. It two scions of Hollywood royal houses hooking up had tongues wagging.

In public Lucille Ball was all sweetness and light. Saying she was "delighted" and that had known Liza since she was a child.... Privately they do say Ms. Ball was not at all happy with the relationship thinking Liza was too old. Then there was the matter of her lifestyle and so forth.

Keep in mind Liza was still married to Peter Allen (something else that sent Lucy Ball up the wall), while she was carrying on an affair with Desi, Jr.

Desi, Jr and Liza moved in together and a wedding was supposed to be eminent. Just how that was to happen with Liza still married to Peter Allen who knows... In any event it didn't last. Liza soon threw Desi, Jr. over for a much older Peter Sellers.

" . . . a wedding was supposed to be eminent."

Oh, dear.

R438, Plus, Lucy had just dealt with the Desi, Jr./Patty Duke situation.

26 isn't "almost 30".

R441

It isn't "twenty something" either gramps.

I know the collector who owns the "Mascara" dress. It is amazing in person R280.

R442 If 26 is almost 30, then 19 (Desi's age then) must be almost 23. Only it's not.

R443, Does he live in Australia by any chance?

19 is almost mid 20s.

A 19-year-old man and a 26-year-old woman would definitely raise eyebrows back then (and even now), even if the teenager in question had already fucked his way across the greater LA area, as it's rumored DJ had.

Vincente Minnelli was good at extravagant musicals, overheated or intimate melodramas and sitcoms. A pretty good range.

Guess since Peter Allen was surely off being boinked by some young man, he wasn't in any position to protest about Liza carrying on with a much younger Desi Jr.

How and why that marriage happened I've never been able to understand.

Judy introduced Liza to Peter. Liza had her own gay father, and perhaps Peter reminded her in some way of Vincente. Also, Peter was a strong personality who protected Liza from much of her mother's craziness during their marriage.

R450

Ok, I'll buy that, thanks for explaining.

I didn't know about Peter Allen's songwriting credits. Good for him. "I Honestly Love You" was a great love song, performed to perfection by ONJ.

Found new still in shrink wrap CD of Peter Allen's greatest hits at a local thrift shop several years ago. This was just after Hugh Jackman had done that Broadway musical based on Peter Allen's life.

Music was "ok", but never really liked "I Honestly Love You" anyway. Rather liked Peter Allen's tribute to Judy Garland "Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage"

His songs remind me of opera arias; often just same bits sung over and over with a chorus.

There was a Peter Allen bio mini series made by Australian television a few years ago. It was quite watchable.

I always found Peter Allen songs awkward in their phrasing and melody. He seemed lucky to have the career he had.

That's interesting. Wasn't Peter Allen more often than not a co-writer?

I honestly think Judy and Liza were partly attracted to gay men because of their sense of humor (both theirs and the men's). Incidentally both had plenty of relationships with men who weren't gay, they just didn't often marry straight men.

Doesn't Liza like the ladies, though?

I never heard anywhere that Liza "liked the ladies." Judy did though. It's been mentioned in some Judy bios that she had affairs with women. Who she had affairs with has never been documented, although one woman that was mentioned was someone named Betty Asher. She worked at MGM; she and Garland did have a "close" relationship." In Gerald Clarke's sleazy bio of Judy called "Get Happy" he quotes her as saying in regard to her lesbian liaisons "When you've eaten everything in the world there is to eat you have to find new things." He went on to say that lesbian affairs weren't more than a "side dish" on her sexual menu. She was a lot more into men. But I guess she did like muff diving on occasion. Supposedly near the end of her life when she didn't have a pot to piss in a female fan helped her out financially and they have had a sexual relationship. Having sex with and getting help financially from female fans? Wow. But that was the state of Judy Garland's life then.

Has anyone else seen that big coffee table book from probably 15-20 years ago that was a collection of Hollywood "chap books" from the 1930's? Totally XXX-rated cartoons of all the major stars, it was so much fun. But I simply can't find the name or author through Google. My university library kept having copies stolen, so I gave them mine and they put it in Special Collections. Too bad, wish I still had it, it was hilarious.

[quote]It doesn’t surprise me. Ginger Rogers could never shed that floozy look. Even as an 8 year old I was aghast at her overdone appearance in the Barkley’s Of Broadway. Fancy hairdo, chunky jingling charm bracelet, and scarf, and the pallet of heavy makeup......

Her peach fuzz was distracting and without makeup she was actually PLAIN AF. A lot of the actresses at the time looked completely different without screen makeup, but they were at least attractive. Not Ginger. To me, her facial features were coarse. She did have a lovely figure, I'll give her that.

Didn't Susan Hayward briefly do the stage version? She might have been able to pull it off on film. She was a stronger movie presence than Lucy.

R462 Hayward was very ill from brain cancer, so, no. If she had been healthy, though? Still no.

Really, Liza was the only one who could have made a somewhat successful movie of MAME in the 1970s. Ann-Margret's comeback via "Carnal Knowledge" didn't really return her to movie stardom - co-star yes, and TV movie queen, certainly.

[quote]Even as an 8 year old I was aghast at her overdone appearance in the Barkleys Of Broadway.

MARY!

Ginger looks fine in The Barkleys Of Broadway. I mean she was 38, not a spring chicken.

When I was a boy I saw a picture of Rogers in Hello Dolly. I had never seen kabuki before and it scared the hell out of me.

When I was seven years old my mom let me skip my Cub Scout meeting and stay home and watch the Mike Douglas show with her, Rogers was on and she had gained weight and had such heavy make-up on I was so aghast that I fainted.

At 22 Ginger looks good to me, even if not the molded plastic beauty of 2021.

Ginger's nose wasn't great. But otherwise she was attractive.

Ginger, not Debbie Harry, invented two tone hair.

Oh, well, when she was old, Ginger looked/dressed like an old whore. But in old Technicolor MGM movies they took pains to make all the stars look good.