Suburban hells

I grew up in the burbs and live in one now. The burbs are fine. I have a pool. The people are zombies but I don't care, i'm not here to make friends.

It's not hell.

I grew up in a Southern suburban town and was not rejected by my family for coming out of the closet. Now I live in a nice suburban house in another state.

Life in the suburbs is cheap and quiet, especially if you can find one that is in driving distance of a major city. It is not the 1960s anymore. Gay people are everywhere, not just tiny neighborhoods in decaying urban enclaves.

It’s heaven. After over 20 years and more than a dozen moves in NYC, I have 2+ acres, a pool, hot tub, 4br/3ba house with magnificent views and no visible neighbors. All for less than a 2br condo or coop in NYC.

There are great restaurants, an abundance of supermarkets and plenty of small independent shops. I have an amazing library with robust programming (and really stepped up virtual offerings during the pandemic). Several independent theaters and music venues nearby.

I have access to dozens of hiking trails, golf courses and town tennis courts. I used to play in a golf group and made some buddies that I still play with all over the area.

I have no interest/need to socialize with the local residents but I am sure there are some decent people. I have a tight knit social group and post-pandemic we will once again socialize here or in NYC.

It depends on what’s important to you. For me it was quiet, outdoor space and access to outdoor activities, and a bigger living space. I don’t feel like I have sacrificed anything.

Sprawl and chain restaurants. Hell for anyone not driving a car and with sophisticated taste.

Yeah, because nothing says sophistication quite like the McDonald’s in Times Square or the shit of homeless people festering on Mission Street.

Hell is someplace flat without trees, without lake or river. It’s also where you have to live on well water.

Living somewhere where there is nothing within walking distance, and are forced to get in a car and drive for everything little thing seems like hell to me.

Live and let live. Every single one of us knows what suburbs are like. Some of us like. Some don't. Be more creative in thinking of a flame posting.

I live in coastal Southern California and its very conservative and expensive. All I can afford to own is a Mobile Home. Property taxes are insane. I think Mobile Home Parks are going to boom because people can't afford to buy 1500 squarefoot ticky tacky houses.

Or they could just dismantle the tax system that keeps people from becoming upwardly mobile.

A lot of us moved out to the burbs to help aging parents and stayed. I'm one of them. But I grew up here and it's a nice place so I don't mind it. I'm in my 60s so been there done that as far as big cities go.

Long Island is bad. Nassau or Suffolk county.

R12 Just the opposite. I grew up in a beautiful suburban town with good schools, no crime, and now, expensive real estate. It's still nice, but I lasted a year there after my Mom died. The quiet got to me. I moved back there when she got sick and went back to the city as soon as I could sell the place. You need a car to do anything and it's all buttoned up by about 9:30 at night.

"Little boxes little boxes . . . "

What about tiny houses? They're cheap and you can transport them anywhere.

[quote]A lot of us moved out to the burbs to help aging parents and stayed. I'm one of them. But I grew up here and it's a nice place so I don't mind it. I'm in my 60s so been there done that as far as big cities go.

Same here, except I'm selling the place and am-scraying to a medium-sized walkable city as soon as ... well, you know.

It has been a good place during the pandemic — front and back yards, socially isolated from neighbors. People are pleasant but I haven't one damn thing in common with them. And I would really like to be able to walk at night without every car slowing down to eye me suspiciously.

[quote]Long Island is bad. Nassau or Suffolk county.

Not all of it. Same with New Jersey.

Thread closed.

[QUOTE] You need a car to do anything

What’s wrong with that, R14? I’ve had a car since I was 16 and love driving. Nothing feels better than hopping in a nice car and going out for a ride.

It is honestly fine! I tend to avoid people and haven’t made friends but I like it that way. I order groceries for delivery, take out, enjoy my nice yard and gardens and relax.

Sort of the anti-hell, OP. At least in my hood.

I have a small, old cape cod house sitting on a half acre that backs up to a wooded greenspace.

That greenspace (owned by the village) was overrun with honeysuckle and weeds but about 5 years ago something changed. Not sure what. Maybe the new neighbor moving in?

At any rate, the new neighbor and another neighbor started clearing out the honeysuckle. I had done some clearing on and off but I was dealing with family issues at the time so I couldn't do much.

Last fall, I was finally able to attack that honeysuckle with extreme prejudice and tore out quite a bit of it along with poison ivy, Virginia creeper and wild grapevine.

This spring, I walked back there to see how much more I needed to do at the edge of my property and found the most wonderful native wildflowers coming up! Trout lilies, glory of the snow, bloodroot.

Now we have jack in the pulpit, may apples, virginia water leaf, toothwort, toadwort and who knows what else. It is glorious!

There are six households on the street now clearing honeysuckle and brush. We've planted native trees and shrubs. Three households have dedicated patches of our yards to native wildflowers.

I know most of you probably think that sounds like hell but it is my idea of heaven. Trees, flowers and butterflies. Great neighbors, quiet dead end street.

[quote] I grew up in the burbs and live in one now. The burbs are fine. I have a pool. The people are zombies but I don't care, i'm not here to make friends.

R1, do you have a partner, family, friendly coworkers? Do you just not need friends? Seems like it would be hard to live somewhere that was impossible to meet new people.

I grew up in the burbs (Long Island) and dreamed of the day I would get the fuck out of there and never come back. Well, I didn't come back for for about 47 years after I graduated from high school. It was actually prettier than I remembered and there were many beautiful houses that I didn't appreciate at the time. Even my elementary school was like something out of a story book (red brick with a turret, built in the 1920s). But there is NOTHING about the town that would ever make me want to live there or even hang out there. I found out that someone who I grew up with still lives in the same house he grew up in. I find that to be very creepy and hope he has at least ventured out into the real world and taken a peak of it. Very sad to have a suburban life your entire life.

It’s nice and clean with tons of trees and well maintained houses and yards.

I now appreciate the suburbs more. I wouldn't mind living in a suburb now. Caveat: no daily commute / drive. I could commute maybe 2X per week.

Suburbs suck but if you must live in one, choose a relatively rural suburb, somewhere quiet and scenic. Nothing is worse than a crowded suburb of a major metropolitan area. You get the bitchy conformist attitudes of middle America combined with the crowdedness and stress of urban life. Depressing.

I live in one of Fort Lauderdale's western suburbs, in a city that's technically bigger than the biggest (or at least, second-biggest) cities in a dozen states. I have a square-mile park and a regional mall within easy biking distance. I rarely need to shop more than a mile away. Ditto, for 95% of the restaurants I normally eat at.

One or two nights per week, I wish I were closer to Wilton Manors. The other 5, I love it here. Scruff-wise, I rarely need to venture more than a 10-minute drive.

Every day, I get down on my knees & thank black baby Jesus I don't live in Miami anymore. Broward has traffic issues, sure, but Dade County's traffic is just fucking hopeless. For 25 years, Dade County has collected billions of dollars from its transit tax, and hasn't built a goddamn mile of new Metrorail track that wasn't inevitable anyway (to the airport).

Ditto, for the Miami-Dade Expressway authority, which has collected billions of dollars in new tolls... and used it mostly to build more toll booths (the new 826-836 interchange was funded mostly by FDOT, not MDX). Thanks to MDX, it's no longer possible to access huge chunks of Miami to/from I-95 without paying $1.25+ tolls, because the only two exits in 3 miles north of downtown are to/from SR-112 & SR-836, and there's now toll booths at all the points where people used to use them to get on I-95.

The roads out west are even worse. SR-112 ends halfway to Doral, and half the roads west of the Palmetto dead-end & FORCE you to funnel through nw 12 & 25 street, or 107th ave. Miami's roads are a case study in everything you can possibly do wrong (by allowing developers to turn every goddamn road into a dead-end with exactly one way in or out via some gridlocked arterial).

It’s actually far from hell and very nice, especially the ones outside of major cities like NYC, DC, Boston, San Francisco, Austin, Nashville, and Chicago.

You have lots of space and can don’t have to build a cookie cutter home. Homes are affordable so you can put time into really decorating. They are safe areas and generally have good schools.

Nothing really hellish about a nice size plot of land, clean neighborhoods, safety, and comfort.

I live in a city that is an enclave in a city that is 250x bigger. While it is not exactly a suburb, it sure feels like one. It is a gated community on top of the hills, nothing is walking distance, and there is no public transportation unless you want to walk a mile down the hill and back up it.

It is really the best of both options. Huge homes in a perfectly landscaped neighborhood, but just 5-10 minutes to nearly anything you could want.

I don't own a car. How on earth do people in middle America survive without a car? Or don't they? Are there any cities aside from New York and Portland (and who would move there now?) that are survivable without a car?

The lawn mowing, power washing and screaming kids begins in spring and it’s never-ending.

R31 you just get a car. From high school onwards most people have cars and never take the bus outside of school trips or airport shuttles.

I live in Chicago. Yes, I get to walk places but being carless is only useful when I’m out on weekends bar hopping with friends. Outside of that there isn’t that much of a benefit to walking my ass to the coffee shop over driving to a coffee shop. I get the same pleasure, my coffee.

I have to do some shopping for things at Target and some local stores. It would be so much easier to store hop in the burbs when I had my car over the city where I need to either order and Uber or try carrying the shit home.

Grocery shopping also sucks in the city. My closest grocery store is a 10-15 min walk. Every time I go there I wish I could drive rather than drag my groceries home.

R31 The truth about the US is that if you don't have a car you are completely and utterly fucked. Unless you live in a few select urban areas like Manhattan. I've known a few people in bad life circumstances but the ones who lost their license/access to a car just went on a complete downward spiral mentally.

I also live in Chicago and drive everyday, I love living in the city, so many options for stores & restaurants, and I don't miss having to maintain a yard, looking out from my third floor window at all the trees is just perfect. Currently I am in Worthington Ohio staying at my parents home while they are away. They have a beautiful quiet home surrounded by lots of land, flowers and trees. But would I want to live here full time, never. Its so quiet and boring that I'm always grateful to get back to the city and the busy sidewalks and lakefront.

Hey r35, we miss you in the city!!!!

I think Chicago has the best mix of both worlds. I used to have a car when I moved her but got tired of moving it for street cleaning. I’ve been without one for awhile but I miss the convenience of having a car for shopping or if I feel like going on a road tip. Chicago is nice that it’s a real walkable city that’s built to manage cars in a way that narrow NYC streets simply can’t accommodate.

There are so many neighborhoods that have a suburban feel, even with apartments, that you get that great hybrid lifestyle of families with strollers mixed with the edge of a city life.

The north shore suburbs ate simply gorgeous. Boring, but gorgeous. It’d take a very special msn to get me to move up there, but I could make it work if needed.

Not for me, personally, though I have lived in a few. I love both rural and urban environments, but suburbs seem like the worst aspects of both, without the advantages.

[quote]The lawn mowing, power washing and screaming kids begins in spring and it’s never-ending.

Please don't forget the leaf blowers, which accomplish nothing but earsplitting whines while sending dust and pollen into the air.

The CITIES are HELL now

Minneapolis, San Francisco, New York, Portland etc

I grew up in an older suburb in a southern city. I've been living in cities my adult life, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Boston. Now I live in southern California. Coastal burbs. And I absolutely love it. Pre pandemic we had city weekends all the time. But it's not to have a quieter place to spend my time, a bit of a yard and garage for the cars. I loved my years in the city but at 54, I could never go back.

R40 "nice" not "not"

Black snow in Chicago is why you need to put your car away. You’re spending an hour to travel less than 20 miles and there’s always just one fat-head per vehicle. Stop it.

Historic, rich suburbs are lovely. Newer snout-housed suburbs are shit.

i hate living in a suburb. hearing some stupid neighbor using their power tool every day of the week. i miss living in the country. hopefully, now with the wonderful power of working from home, i never need to worry about this again. i work in loan processing, so hopefully we survive the recent hiccup in rates and i can continue to work from home and move the fuck away from this state and neighborhood where i have to deal with some random power tool every fucking day of the week. seriously, wtf?!

Havent been for 20 years!!

R22 I'm interested in knowing how you dealt with the wild grapevines. We have them taking over and I'm not sure where to start.

As far as suburban neighborhoods, around me the suburban towns can be very nice, with walkways, bars, stores, and houses set up more like the cities. The outskirts of those have nice properties with big yards. My biggest gripe is not the suburbs, but the hideous developments. Idk why anyone would move from a city area, just to live in a neighborhood where neighbors are 5' away and everything has been cut down, but with the inconvenience of commuting.

I've lived in a city and it's suburbs. If you stick to locations that give a shit (put a lot into the community), there's not much difference. The town by me is bustling like a city, with walkers, bar hopping, and lots of small shops. Rural locations are where it gets tough if you don't have a reason for it.

To expand on the above, not all suburbs are the same.

There is a world of difference between upscale suburbs with small walkable downtowns and more pedestrian post-war burbs where all shopping is done at strip malls on the side of a major roadway filled with chain stores.

There are actually many walkable areas of older burbs, though you'd want to have a car for most things as the cute three block village will have nice restaurants, a movie theater and coffee bars but no supermarket.

In certain cities in the Northeast--NYC, Boston, Philadelphia and DC--wealthy suburbanites take commuter trains into the city rather than driving and towns on the train lines command a premium price as a result. This is not the case in most of the rest of the country (SF Bay area being another exception) where public transportation is considered to be an option for poor people without cars.

I grew up in Philadelphia suburb, then a Conn. town, all over and now live in a suburb of Albuquerque New Mexico. 1500 sq feet for under 200k. The weather is good.

The people across the street have 9 cars/trucks parked in their front yard. Mexican-Americans. Kids are in college and live at home I think. They work on cars on the weekends, but are pretty good about it, afternoons and no loud music. Everyone else is pretty chill, they go to work at 6am. By 9pm it's silent outside. Almost no crime here, compared to town. Kids don't play outside much like when I was a kid (I'm 47, grew up in 80's).

Large park about 4 blocks away. Dogs, fields, small lake, ducks, wildlife. We have a dog.

The key is to orient your home AWAY from other suburbanites completely. I don't look out front. It can be a tad dystopic. Some hair fat man is always mowing his lawn or revving his motorcycle or something similar.

We gutted the house, polished concrete and glass doors opening up into a large backyard garden. Turned fence into a green wall and have huge trees. Can't see neighbors, houses, anything. Almost completely private. Still hear some kids. The old people next to us seem to be about dead, never going out anymore, so we don't see them.

About 2 or 3 miles to a store. Not that much fun to walk, loud traffic. Many obese people. Many teachers, nurses. Mixture of middle and lower middle class.

Not for everyone. You need to drive. You need to love Home Depot or tolerate it. You need to garden and be into boring suburban things. I would say anyone under 35, it's probably not great for your development as a human being.

If you are looking for walkability, culture or community or wild experiences - not for you.

r44 I am a power too user and I know it sucks. My hatred is fat dudes revving motorcycles and early morning leaf blowing or lawn mowing.

I am into weird hobbies, for example I restore old gas stoves - mostly Chambers Model A and B. Restore and repair furniture, diy other boring suburban stuff. I don't use in the mornings, only between say 11-4 and then maybe a little bit in the evening after dinner. I will literally wait until these times. I try to do it in garage.

I use hand tools when I can.

I still believe the suburbs are way more silent than any city, which is just a cacophony of noise (police sirens). Rural areas are so quiet I have found it hard to sleep at first. But what about those annoying chirping fucking things? Crickets or whatever.

[quote]I have 2+ acres....with magnificent views and no visible neighbors

You don't live in the suburbs, hon. You live in the country.

Moved to the suburbs when my partner was having back problems and couldn’t walk a block. Figured if we had to drive everywhere, may as well do it in the suburbs where it’s easier.

I miss the ability to walk places, but that’s the trade off. Horrible chain restaurants near me but I drive further out to a smaller college town for good restaurant and movie theaters. It’s quicker to drive 20 miles away than to drive 4 miles into the city and try and finds a place to park.

I don't think it's hell at all, I would hate to live in a city. I'm very sensitive to noise.

I have a big garden, can walk a couple of minutes and I'm in a forest, have wildlife all around - not my idea of hell.

[quote] Living somewhere where there is nothing within walking distance, and are forced to get in a car and drive for everything little thing seems like hell to me.

Fear of driving sounds like a mental condition, but if one is so afflicted, you could have every little thing delivered to you.

Suburb I live in is quiet and I like it that way. There are a lot of good bike paths so I can cycle to most things I need. I have three malls within a 20 minute cycle, and another really big one within 30 minutes. I have pools 25 mins bike ride away, and beaches 15 minutes the other way, plus lots of parks. Plus I can drive if the weather's bad or I'm carrying a big load. It isnt walkable for shops but with a bicycle it doesnt need to be.

I used to live and work in the city when it was nice. I once wanted to move into the city with my partner, but he was dead set on staying put in the burbs. Now there's a lot of "homeless" addicts and beggars in the city now I'm damn glad he stuck to his guns. I dont talk about getting a city apartment any more

Yes r47.

I live in a suburb, but it still has good density and a walkable little downtown. Can complete many errands without needing to get in my car. You do see these type of suburbs in the Northeast.

I could never do the completely sprawling with cul de sacs type of suburbia.

R54 is why I’m happy to be in Chicago. The homeless do not come to my part of the city. It’s like a nice little bubble where things like shooting, begging, and other unpleasantness isn’t a factor. I now see that this is unique.

I did see a homeless person asleep outside of a shop one time in over 2 years of my last neighborhood. He stuck out like a sour thumb and was gone by the afternoon.

When I head to the Loop I see more of them but with downtown almost about find for the past year their not out in full force since there are fewer people to shakedown.

I’ll give Chicago credit for compartmentalism gift our cities issues to strict areas.

We have the same thing as NYC. With lots of suburban travelers commuting into the city via the trains. It’s very pleasant but it stressed me out if I missed mine and ended up late. I prefer to commute via the L with multiple options if I miss one as I arrive to the station.

[QUOTE] The lawn mowing, power washing and screaming kids begins in spring and it’s never-ending.

I like the screaming kids. Reminds me of the good old days when I saw one of the screaming kids. For the most part it only happens on weekends so I’m fine with it.

It’s just horrible! I went for a walk in my neighborhood, and I didn’t see graffiti or homeless people. I didn’t even get robbed!

R58 Did you even get to step in any shit or on some used needles then? So disappointing when that doesnt happen

R59 No! Then my neighbor waved at me from her Lexus! Oh the calamity!

City - riots + green space = suburb

[QUOTE] Reminds me of the good old days when I was* one of the screaming kids.

[quote]Life in the suburbs is cheap

????? Where is that?

It should be emphasized that a lot of “suburbs” happen to be thriving cities that happen to be adjacent to a larger city. They have their own industries, commercial districts and cultural organizations. So they can have a lot of city amenities without the drugs, crime, poverty and destruction that the neighboring large city with its scary urban areas has.

Cities are all suburbs, now, clinging to dead city centers. They’re like little cities unto themselves.

[quote] I'm in my 60s so been there done that as far as big cities go.

I'm in my 60s too and there are definitely days when I feel that I'm 'over' New York, but the thought of moving to the suburbs is far worse than anything I have to deal with here.

I grew up in the suburbs and fled to the city when I was 19. When my partner and I visit friends in the suburbs, it feels nice when you first get there, but, by the end of the evening, I'm yearning to get back to the city.

It's too quiet out there. Our apartment is on a high floor and we have good soundproofing so it's quiet inside, but I'm just an elevator ride away from the liveliness of the street. We can leave the apartment at 7:30 and still get to a Broadway show by 8 (if we ever get to go to a Broadway show again). No worries about 'catching the last train' to get home. Yes, grocery shopping means a 6-7 block walk, but for me it's far better than driving and all the headaches that are associated with owning a car.

For me, the main reason is that suburban home=maintenance. There's always something that needs to be done. I love apartment living because I'm lazy. I love waking up on a Saturday with nothing more pressing than deciding where to go for lunch. I know you can live in an apartment in the suburbs, but that seems the worst of both worlds to me, i.e. sacrificing space yet still needing a car to do much of anything.

[quote]Describe what it is like living in a suburb.

Rows of houses that are all the same, and no one seems to care

[quote] The homeless do not come to my part of the city.

Yet... give it time

No r68, they’ve had decades to try and haven’t come up here. North side of Chicago is still gentrifying.. So no, I doubt a wave of hobos will descend on my neighborhood. We don’t really offer any services up here that would attract them like other parts of the city (like Uptown) This was all by design and is the reason why Chicago could attract so many college educate young (cough white) people. The number of professional white collar workers was rising year over year and the poorer people ended up leaving the city. Especially under our last governor and his budget showdown with the speaker of the house. Social services got cut or disappeared. The poorer people moved out. Wealthier side of town continued to thrive. The homeless are rarely a problem in these parts of the city. My biggest issues is deciding to go with corporate Starbucks or a local chain for my coffee. The local chain have some moody bitches working their walk up window so I usually go for Starbucks. At least the cute gay behind the counter is flirty.

R66 says the suburbs are too quiet. Also, his apartment in the city has to be soundproofed.

[bold]Unrest in Minnesota town offers warning to other U.S. suburbs, experts say[/bold]

Suburbia isn't always an escape urban problems: from this morning's WaPo: "In just the past few years, the nation has watched as controversial police shootings in Ferguson Mo., a suburb of St. Louis, and Kenosha, Wis., an outer suburb of Chicago, led to widespread civil unrest. The disturbances raised questions about whether police departments and local governments were responsive to their increasingly diverse citizens and if those residents could expect equal justice.

Now, Brooklyn Center, about 10 miles from downtown Minneapolis, is at the center of that debate with the death of 20-year-old Daunte Wright, who was shot and killed during a traffic stop by a police officer who thought she was holding a Taser, not her service weapon. Last year, during the riots that engulfed Minneapolis following the death of George Floyd, Brooklyn Center remained largely peaceful even though the downtown skyline is visible from parts of the community. But now, after several consecutive days of protests and looting, an air of crisis and big-city drama has gripped Brooklyn Center and its 30,000 residents."

I did get tired of the intensity after York City as I got older. Moved to Chicago for seven years which was great but I'm now in DC which is perfect. It has all the amenities of a large city without being a large city. Hope to spend the rest of my life here. I've lived in the suburbs and it almost killed me from boredom.

[quote] Ferguson Mo., a suburb of St. Louis

Believe me, when we are referring to suburbs, we are not including places like Ferguson. That’s a whole other kind of place.

Jersey City is a city, but it is also a suburb of NY. Not always so cut and dry.

There are suburbs and there are SUBURBS. Some people just can’t afford SUBURBS. Lol

Who lives in the city? So run down and scary!!!! 😦

It can be hell in the social sense, very conservative, no real creativity. But more breathing room, more affordable, less crime. You take the good with the bad.

E46, I dealt with the grapevines two ways.

The first was to take a machete to them and cut them out of the surrounding trees and bush as much as possible.

Then I went in with a pair of bolt cutters and a chainsaw, followed the vine to where it came out of the ground and cut it about 6" from the ground.

I then painted the remaining stump with a combination of kerosene and crossbow per the label directions. Took a small foam brush and painted each stub individually. It was a pain in the ass but those bastards are DEAD.

It was a two day job. The first day I did nothing but clear with the machete and pull the mess out so I could get in there.

The second day I took the chainsaw, bolt cutters and crossbow into the void.

For vines growing up the trunks, take a claw hammer or a crowbar and pry them off the trunk. Cut a 1' section out and treat both ends of the vine with the crossbow. Once it dies, you can pull most of the shit out of the tree.

The crossbow mixture works for English ivy (cut the stem and paint each end), celedine (paint the leaves) and honeysuckle (cut it and paint the stump). Spraying did not do anything but kill tree leaves and grass so I took the fight right to their greedy little stems. The kerosene gets the plant to draw the poison up.

Be sure to wear gloves, goggles and a mask working with that stuff. It's pretty nasty (which is why I don't spray, just paint. Targeting the kill).

Good luck! It's completely worth it since cutting that mess out has made room for more trees (tons of walnut sprouts) and more room for the wildflowers to spread!

THANK YOU R78 (aka Sir cutsAlot, aka slayer of weeds, aka conqueror of grapevines 😂) glad you caught my inquiry. They're real bastards and causing so much damage. Didn't act fast enough last year to do much about them. It's so strange, that it has to be related to changes in climate, because I've never in my life seen so many. They're everywhere in our area now. Driving around, you can see trees being choked out. I believe my partner is breaking out from the slightest contact with them as well.

Sounds like a bitch of a job but it needs to be done. We're getting those and other invasive (poisonous) plants taking over. Between that, the nonstop developments, and more extreme weather events, the poor trees are dwindling in number. I'm trying to avoid killing milkweed though, because our property becomes a magnificent monarch butterfly haven in summer (they love milkweed and have trouble finding enough.) It looks like one of those butterfly houses, it's almost unreal.

I'll definitely start on that chore immediately (screenshot your comment). Myself and my many trees thank you!

You two are too cute! Best of luck r79! R78 I don’t have those vies or even a yard but I love when DL members getting into these type of detailed responses.

[quote]Jersey City is a city, but it is also a suburb of NY. Not always so cut and dry.

Saying Jersey City is also a suburb is stretching it when it looks like this . . .

My pleasure, r79! It is a huge bitch to do but once it's done, it's easy to maintain. The longer you wait, the harder it will be.

I'm sure global warming has a lot to do with it. That shit starts growing earlier and never stops.

If your partner helps you, make sure he wears long sleeves, long pants and I'd also recommend using masking tape to tape his pant legs closed when attacking the poison ivy. You don't want a leaf or some of the oil accidentally getting up in there. He sounds like he has sensitive skin.

If you're here in the US, you can buy all sorts of milkweed and other natives from prairie moon.

However, once you start ripping out the invasives and vines, your seed bed should bounce back pretty well and reward all of your hard work!

Good luck!

Jersey City is scary/dreary. Is it really considered a suburb? It looks more like a ghetto.

Yonkers New York is a much smaller city north of NYC- that does NOT make it a SUBURB. It has suburban neighborhoods but it's still a city.

Yes R83 and R84 -- you are correct, but DL's Aspie Brigade seems to have found this thread

Bunching all the “suburbs” as though they are all the same is pretty ridiculous. Where I live (DC area), just the near suburbs include Arlington, Bethesda, Silver Spring., Takoma Park, and Alexandria - which are vastly different. Each is walkable and has a distinct character.

What is the motive here? Is it to feel better about living in a studio apartment during a pandemic?

Bethesda "walkable"? Yeah, maybe after you drive downtown.

Think of the ages and socioeconomics of DL R86

You have a large group of older men who grew up in 1950s Levittown type suburbs on the outskirts of smaller Flyoverstani cities, many of whom relocated to WeHo and Chelsea in the 60s or 70s and stayed put.

So for them, "the suburbs" means their stultifying 1959 Levittown subdivision, not Takoma Park or Bethesda

After 30 years in a city, moved to a walkable suburb with a train to the city 5 minutes away that took you to gay central in 25 minutes, it was a nice happy medium. Never had a car. Could walk to the grocery, restaurants, drug store. Also to a 600 acre nature preserve It was a nice transition.

But it’s isolating without question. No one under 35 - or over 65 - should live in one. Either you’re extremely limited in your dating pool and social life - or you’re completely disconnected from life because you’re stuck in the house.

I lived in a generic apartment in the suburbs of a middle American city briefly in my 20’s and hated it. I think a city apartment with walkability, a house in a charming neighborhood of a city or town with a yard, or a house out in the country on a large piece of land all have their benefits.

That's silly r88. For most Americans when they think of suburbs they don't think of dense walkable places, the vast majority of suburbia that exists in this country is not like that. I live in one of those two, but I recognize this is a unique type of suburbia that is primarily just along the Northeast.

Too*

Interesting info on wild grape vines. I have them but had no idea what they are. But I spent a frustrating 8 hours recently de-vining a bunch of bushes that I let get overgrown with these vines. Now I now how to deal with them better.

R88- There were at least FOUR Levittowns built in the 1940/50's. There is the original Levittown on Long Island, one in New Jersey, Pennsylvania and even Florida.

I did not know that R94

To me "Levittown" is shorthand for a suburb of small 1950s-era tract houses built on what had been farmland, so devoid of any trees other than what the homeowners eventually planted and not connected to any existing town.

It seems many of these were built during the postwar Pax Americana period 70 years ago and are now "middle ring" suburbs as newer development has pushed the boundaries of suburbia much further out into area that was entirely rural 70 years ago.

I love it. A huge house, three car garage, lawn, safe, great shopping, free parking, and clean

I very much want to get out of the city but am hesitant since I'm alone.

Kind of boring and very convenient. I don’t have a problem with it.

r20, No. Nothing feels better than waking up at 2am in the morning and being able to take a walk, have 10 food choices, get a beer, a joint, a blowjob or see others enjoying a life that I'm too old for AND FEELING SAFE. Being Alive.

How safe would you feel walking around your suburban neighborhood at 2am? Would people call the police? Would you feel safe? Would Mrs. Kravitz report you to the HOA? Would your partner give you the 3rd degree when you returned? Would your neighbors think you are weird and talk about you?

I grew up 30 min from Manhattan. My teenage suburban hell was that I had friends on Park Ave. and I was stuck in New Jersey! I couldn't get to the City fast enough.

The need to drive everywhere can be mental illness. Why can't you stay put for 5 minutes? What are you running away from? I used to work with a lady in Houston who would put 400 miles on her car every weekend just driving around Houston with her husband, used car shopping! If they had to sit in a room alone for 10minutes the relationship would fall apart.

Only poser queens think you're not a gold star homo if you don't live in a gay ghetto.

I live in the 'burbs. Have a nice, fenced backyard with a pool and I love going out there with a cocktail and throwing a ribeye on the grill. Don't have much to do with neighbors except a casual wave. I also happen to live by the water and routinely dine on great food gazing out at the water and gorgeous yachts. Just because you live in the suburbs doesn't mean you are forced to eat at chains. Even the suburbs have nice little family owned restaurants and shops. True you have to have a car but in this heat you don't want to walk anyway.

I live in a co-op in Westchester County. It's NOT cheap, there are too many fucking people here and too many lines and too much traffic. But there are good restaurants within walking distance, and NYC is a 30-45 minute commuter train ride away. I can easily walk to the train. I moved here 20 years ago assuming I'd eventually move to NYC, but didn't.

[quote] Are there any cities aside from New York and Portland (and who would move there now?) that are survivable without a car?

San Francisco, DC

R33 is not suited to the joys of urban living.

I loath suburbs and cars/driving.

Philly and Boston too. Very doable without a car.

Life without a car in a traditional big city with a good metro/public transportation is freeing. One actually feels MORE mobile.

I'm so much happier without the expense and bother of a car.

One can always rent a car for a road trip or use Uber or Lyft in the city.

If you can find one available R106. I've tried getting one them here and it always says "no cars available". Before the pandemic, I never had a problem but since things have been opened back up, seems Uber and Lyft are hard to get now. I don't know why there's such a shortage.

You can't get everywhere in Boston without a car. And if you live in Boston you want to go to the surrounding areas.

Another issue: PARKING

You realize living without a car doesn't mean you can't ever use one r108? If you really need a car for something there are zipcars, car rental companies, uber.

It's about whether in your day to day life can you manage somewhere without having a car.

That's a hassle r110. I have an apt. in NYC and keep a car there. It's so freeing to just be able to jump in my car whenever I want to.

Every city in the N.E. has a few perfect "bedroom communities" that are completely livable. Nyack, Tacoma Pk, Bethesda, Chesterbrook or Ardmore, if you like that sort of thing. Only NY and DC are doable without a car.

Hard pass for me.

An American with a car addiction, ground breaking r111. Yes, obviously there are many people who would never want to part with using a car under any circumstances.

I just don’t like how isolated it felt. Also it’s full of kids and families. The people are strange. And the newer suburbs are just ugly too. It’s not a place I would ever want to live again.

I feel bad for people who are forced to live in cities. They have Stockholm Syndrome. But they don’t realize it.

R112- Philadelphia and Chicago are also DOABLE without a car.

Philly is hell without a car. Prepare to be stuck with overpriced groceries and few exit options during riots.

Suburbs are okay but they are rarely 24 hours

Certain areas of SF are hard without a car, e.g., the outer avenues. SF's public transportation is all or mostly on the surface streets, i.e., you're not avoiding normal car traffic. Your public rail car is still stopped in back of a car at stop lights. The frequency of the buses isn't great in all areas. Still, you could survive w/out a car.

Washington, DC, has the Metro, i.e., a subway that avoids all the surface traffic. Metro doesn't go to Georgetown and, IIRC, inconvenient to Adams Morgan. Still, way better than SF!

Tokyo has the best public transportation that I've ever experienced. Japan, in general, actually.

r113 you live in the US, you need a car.

Interesting take on living in surburban-like Nashville vs NYC.

This thread is peculiar. You people seem to be living exceptionally well but are here on DL?? Lol I mean, if I had your standard of living, i.e. swimming pools, tennis courts, spacious house with several rooms and a beaming social life with everything else in between that comes with living the good life in the suburbs the last place I would waste any of my time on is here on DL.

R122 thinks people post from their laptops in the basement office.

In what still seems like mid-winter, R123

R122's comment is so bizarre. Do you think people with pools and tennis courts don't use the internet? Hon, everybody is connected to the internet at all times.

[quote] Nothing feels better than waking up at 2am in the morning and being able to take a walk, have 10 food choices, get a beer, a joint, a blowjob

What sort of addiction or mental illness do you suffer from R99?

Because when most of us wake up at 2AM, nothing feels better than knowing we can roll over and go back to sleep because the alarm clock won't be going off for several more hours.

^Trapped in suburban hell, has to wake up to an alarm clock AND has a learning disability. I'll pray for you.

I said it earlier in this thread- The cities are HELL nowadays, especially with all of the RIOTS that are sure to return by mid June.

Minneapolis and Chicago are already simmering with discontent and it's only mid March.

After the unrest and looting in NYC last year I'm glad I have a country house in a quiet town (i.e. 99% white) to escape to when needed.

Sorry I meant to say it's only Mid April.

I grew up in the suburbs and there’s this sense of sadness I always felt living there. When I visit my parents I still feel it and I’m glad to get back to the city. It’s just not for me and never has been. People should do what works for them.

I feel a sense of sadness in NYC and esp. LA. Lots of sad, desperate people whose lives didn't work out the way they wanted.

R131- NYC is SAD now. There are NO tourists and almost no office workers and most entertainment venues are still closed. All of the GOOD aspects of city living are gone but the BAD ones remain- such as- Noise pollution, air pollution and most especially CRIME.

If they can an afford to live in New York r132, then their life must not have worked out too poorly.

The concentration of desperate, unfulfilled lives in cities is bleak.

My heart breaks for them.

Please r134. A lot of people CAN'T afford NYC but they hang on anyway. "Desperate and unfullfilled lives" is accurate. Believe me, I've known so many. You meet so many. Esp. now that the city is only affordable for a select fraction of the population and in many cases you need connections to really make it. Lots of others have been ground down by it. There's a sense that if your life isn't like the NY Times Sunday Styles section you're just a loser.

What do they see in a crowded, dirty, manic, expensive urban cesspool?

I've never lived in the suburbs, but I have friends who do. Yes, there is more involved in getting about, but the time I've spent out there with them has been quite nice. They have everything (plus some) that I have in the middle of the city, just not within walking distance.

One day, sooner than later, I'll be turning my long term home in a high rise over to my goddaughter. i have plans to move way out in the suburbs near friends to enjoy the rest of my time without the constant roar of city noise.

Lots of ladies protesting too much. No gay kid growing up has a dream of moving to Piscataway or Schaumberg or Daly City and going to Costco on the weekends. It's fine if you settled or if you couldn't make it here, or didn't want to make the sacrifices, that's your choice, but don't admit it was your dream come true.

If you are wealthy and successful, city of living is ideal. If not , then the suburbs keep those people from being homeless.

r139 that's so outdated. Times have changed. Mid-tier cities have all the amenities of big cities at a fraction of the cost. You can live in a fabulous loft apartment, shop at Whole Foods, do yoga and Soulcycle, eat at all the fusion restaurants of your choice and basically be the entitled white cunt you were always meant to be in Columbus or Austin. There are tons of liberal young professionals in these cities now. They're not the redneck backwaters they used to be. NYC, SF and LA are becoming unaffordable to so many people and mid-tier cities are offering the same basic lifestyle at a much more livable price.

Nobody cares if you're gay in any urban center in America these days. Gone are the days when gay people had to run away to NYC, SF or LA to be happy. In the 21st Century it's all about AFFORDABILITY.

[quote] No gay kid growing up in the 1950s and 1960s had a dream of moving to Piscataway or Schaumberg or Daly City and going to Costco on the weekends.

Fixed.

Does DL still have people who grew up in the 50s and 60s?

I would say the vast majority of posters are that age R144, with a good many who were born in the 1940s as well.

People born in 1960 are only 61 r144. Of course we have posters that age here.

My friend's father is 103 years old.

r143, I'm 60 and maybe you're right. Let's see, when they remake "Working Girl" if Tess wants to escape Staten Island for her very own place in Sayreville. Or.

"Moonstruck 2, from Brooklyn to Naples", Naples, Florida. Watch Cher slap a mask less qunt at Publix "SNAP OUT OF IT".

Apple TV Comedy- Andy Warhol never leaves Pittsburgh and instead works for Mr. Roger's Neighborhood, drawing story boards. Hilarity ensues when Mr. Rogers has a crush on Candy Darling.

r141, It's about not having a car so Ohio and Texas are both out and I want to avoid Trumpsters and live around many different types of people.

In Manhattan, Trump got about 65k votes or about 4 percent of the population. In Columbus, Ohio he got 200k or 25 percent of the population.

I'm surrounded by like minded, mostly unarmed, people so I feel safe all the time. America is a scary place I feel safe on my island of 8m.

I had the time of my life this year during the height of the pandemic. The streets were empty and I went all over the place and it was just for me.

It really was a dream come true.

R149: " I'm surrounded by like minded, mostly unarmed, people so I feel safe all the time....The streets were empty and I went all over the place and it was just for me."

You live in some magic place where you are surrounded by people but with empty streets that are just for you?

R149: " I want to ..... live around many different types of people..... I'm surrounded by like minded..... people."

Contradict yourself much?

R78, Thank you! I am dealing with nasty stuff along my fence line. There is an area between my yard and the adjoining neighbors yards where vines & ivy are growing. Little scrub trees too.

I know boring suburban life! 😁

“One is fruitful only at the cost of being rich in contradictions.”- Fred Nachoz

R150, sorry but you sound quite insular and frightened. I live in Houston. Yes, lots of folks have guns but I've never felt frightened and, yes, I have to deal with Trump voters and rednecks but it's a huge diverse mix of people here. I also deal with Vietnamese, Indians, Muslims and lots of Mexicans and other Hispanics. Somehow or another we all manage to coexist. Crime happens everywhere but you can't fear rule your life.

Sorry, that was meant for R149.

Interesting article posted by R121. In a nutshell, the author moved from NY to Nashville, lasted 3 years and came back to NYC. The article was written in 2019.

This particular thought of his jumped out at me.

[quote] You have to drive everywhere. The little walkable strips like 12 South in Nashville are quaint and boring if you come from a large city. And they’re completely slammed with people all the time now, despite the fact that there’s only about 15-20 combined coffee shops, restaurants, and retail shops in a quarter-mile strip.

Right now my partner is at the gym and when he gets home, we're going to go to brunch at a restaurant we've never been to before, 20 blocks from here (NYC). Not having a car, we'll walk, and there will be hundreds of people on the streets, and hundreds of things to look at along the way. We'll probably take one avenue going and a different avenue coming back, just to vary the window shopping.

For me, that's the difference between the city and the suburbs. For all the headaches of living here, the possibilities are endless.

R150, you should be frightened: for overall crime, Houston's crime rate is about nine times that of New York.

A Houston resident is almost three times as likely to be a victim of violent crime compared to the rest of Texas or, for that matter, the United States.

“ No gay kid growing up has a dream of moving to Piscataway or Schaumberg or Daly City and going to Costco on the weekends. ”

The problem is you are hopelessly frozen in time, circa 1971-1991. Also, frozen in an archaic view that being gay means not fitting in with the mainstream, or being oddly different than everyone else. Thankfully times and the wide of array that is the LGBT community have changed a lot from your mindset

R148 that might be a big part of the reason why Hollywood is not connecting with Middle America anymore. It’s so distant from the values and experiences of most America

R156- Let’s not even mention the fact that Houston hasn’t any zoning laws in addition to being infested with crime.

R155- Especially in the winter 🥶 when it’s 25 degrees outside the possibilities for freezing to death are endless.

Lesbians LOVE the suburbs

[quote]The problem is you are hopelessly frozen in time, circa 1971-1991.

This really sums it up for so many DL posters.

Nobody says "I want to be paying $3000 a month for a studio apartment when I'm 40 years old."

LOL, Houston is not infested with anymore crime than many other big cities and I've never felt frightened. You guys crack me up.

R125, Is reading comprehension not your thing, dear? Lol I didn't say anything about the well-off not having access to the internet. I said those people must not be really happy with all that they have if they would rather spend their time on social media and online forums (which is considered low bar and more for the plebs,) than bask in the luxuries of their plush lifestyle.

The problem is you are hopelessly frozen in time, circa 1971-1991. “This really sums it up for so many DL posters.”

PIN this at the top of this site

I live in a small town in Norway. Not really a suburb, though it's a neighborhood a few kilometers south of the downtown area. I live in a townhouse. I have a 5 minute walk to the beach and a 2 minute walk to the supermarket. I love it here. No gay scene whatsoever. But I'm ugly and old and single. I don't feel like I need it anyway.

R165, having a pool in Houston doesn't equal a plush lifestyle. They are pretty common, hell, maybe even a necessity like A/C. I'm actually very middle income.

I truly can't believe how many DLers are stuck in a weird time warp. So many posts revealing complete cluelessness about modern life and culture.

No teenagers are pining away for the day they can hop a Greyhound bus to NYC in 2021. It's pretty well understood you need parents who can support you because the city is insanely expensive.

That was the deal breaker for me too, R155. The endless 98 degree summers didn't help either. I live in a city area of a NYC suburbs and am a half hour from Grand Central - by train. With no public transportation I feel trapped.

You don’t just have to live in New York or way in the middle of nowhere though. I live in Burnaby which is a small city that is technically a suburb of Vancouver. It’s not as big as Vancouver and there are suburban neighbourhoods but where I live it feels like a smaller city. I can walk most places and we have an excellent transit system here so you don’t have to be a slave to cars. It’s so close to Vancouver I can be there quickly too.

Most gay kids aren't going to NYC and SF or WeHo anymore. Look around. They stopped a while ago. Can't afford it and not as much fun for them. They are in all sorts of surprising cities and towns now. Doing their gay thing and loving in. And sadly, many will stuck in their parents homes for years to come. There will always be the die hard gym, bar and apps young gays but most aren't willing to make the sacrifices that we did to live in NYC. A 5th floor walk up and no AC? They'd rather not.

They were going to LA until this covid business.

[quote] young gays but most aren't willing to make the sacrifices that we did to live in NYC. A 5th floor walk up and no AC? They'd rather not.

Because everywhere had walk ups with no AC back in the day. Every city in the country has brand new construction with all the modern amenities. It's a much more attractive option than the ancient, overpriced housing stock in NYC. Yes, NYC has new construction with modern amenities as well, but it's unaffordable for young people who aren't being bankrolled by their parents.

Also, tech. NYC kind of missed the boat on that industry. If you're going to go into tech you're going to go to an area that has a booming tech industry and NYC isn't it.

I swear to god some of you haven't left your hovels in at least two decades.

Historically NY wasn't a tech town, but there is a strong tech presence in New York these days r174. Talk to people under 40 and you will always end up running into people that work in tech. There is a reason Amazon HQ was going to set up shop before they got ran out.

But it's not like other cities/regions r175

Gay kids today want to live in Raleigh, Austin, Loudoun County, Austin, Orlando, Winston-Salem

Portland and Seattle too. And of course, Silicon Valley. There isn't much desire to move to NYC as there was in previous generations.

What posters like R139/R148 and the 2AM freak don't seem to get is that even for straight people, the suburbs are tied in to a specific time of life.

After college you live in a city, be it NYC/Brooklyn, Columbus or Nashville, in an area where there are other young single people and lots of nightlife. Why? Because you're 25 and that's what interests you, straight or gay.

Then when they hit their 30s and get married and have kids, the suburbs beckon. Life revolves around the kids, there's no reason to be awake at 2AM unless your kid had a nightmare, and the local restaurants + an occasional night out in the city are enough for a social life that is centered around house parties (because everyone's got room for them) and kids.

And in that period, people love the burbs. The nicer burbs, not the tract housing ones.

Once the kids are grown, it's time to downsize, maybe move back to the city, maybe to a place near a beach, maybe both.

Gay Boomers and Greatest Generations, of the sort who frequent DL, never experienced these life stages the way most younger gays did.

They, as several posters have noted, remain frozen in time, not just chronologically, but emotionally too.

^^the way younger gays WILL

Just read the piece at R121

He's one of those self-help gurus "I help freelancers turn freelancing into a business!!!"

And he only has one kid, which means he can live in a two bedroom apartment and not feel cramped.

But what comes through most is that it was all about him--the wife and kid and their feelings were an afterthought. All that mattered was how he felt about Nashville.

Good post r179. I'll add that DL's elder brigade think the lives of young gay men still revolve around what was important to their generation, which was clubbing and "the nightlife." That hasn't been true for quite a while. In the 21st Century it's all about careers. Things are crazy competitive these days. There are more people and fewer jobs, and globalization has changed so much. Gay people are affected by it just as everyone else is.

Uhhh...young people still like to party r182. They are doing that in every city. You know you can both have a social life and a career

r183 there are no big clubs like Palladium or Tunnel in NYC anymore. And no, partying isn't the focal point of young gay men's lives in 2021.

Nightlife changes, less big dance clubs, more breweries for instance. But young people, gay and straight, still like to have fun. That's universal.

And many young gay and bisexual men are integrated into the social lives of their straight peers, not seeking some distinct gay ghetto life

But it's not the focal point of their lives r185. Yes, people still go out but they're also busy with other things.

Yeah, and beer gardens, restaurants, lounges, and gaming are more the focal point of socializing now

While Grindr is for sex.

And to round out the point--most unmarried 20somethings, gay or straight, are very into socializing and going out with their friends. That's the stage of life they are at.

Then they meet someone, settle down, have kids and spend their 30s, 40s, and 50s at a different stage of life, one, as mentioned earlier, that revolves more around at-home socializing, kids, and earlier bedtimes.

Which is where suburbia comes in.

There is nothing sadder than middle-aged people who still party like they're in their 20s. They just don't get it that they've aged out of bar-hopping all night until the bars close.

R4 sound great. Where do you live?

"These young gay guys just HAVE to live in New York like we did. They can take a Greyhound bus from their hometowns and get an apartment in the West Village and then go out dancing at discos every night!"

The bizarre time warp of DL's elder brigade never ceases to amaze me.

Also, there's a huge difference between being single & paying for housing and being half of a DINK (double-income, no kids) & paying for housing. Yes, we all make our own choices. The good thing about paying for my own housing is that, if any of my relationships fall apart, I can still afford my own damn housing.

R192- If they were EXTREME elder gays discos would be called DISCOTHEQUES (1966)

Good for you r193. You can't be dependent on another person, you never know what could happen. ALWAYS have your own money and a place to live.

[quote] Right now my partner is at the gym and when he gets home, we're going to go to brunch at a restaurant we've never been to before, 20 blocks from here (NYC). Not having a car, we'll walk, and there will be hundreds of people on the streets, and hundreds of things to look at along the way. We'll probably take one avenue going and a different avenue coming back, just to vary the window shopping. For me, that's the difference between the city and the suburbs. For all the headaches of living here, the possibilities are endless.

Mary!

The country is hell.

The burbs are for white racists.

This thread is fertile for projecting insecurity. R193, it is entirely possible to be in a relationship and financially self sufficient. If you don’t want to or can’t have a relationship, that’s fine. If doesn’t mean all others are in a death grip where they have no choice between a dysfunctional relationship and living in a cardboard box.

And if the burbs are for white racists? Tell that to my black and brown neighbors, who take great care of their property. Unlike the family of Deplorables on military duty.

[quote] There is nothing sadder than middle-aged people who still party like they're in their 20s. They just don't get it that they've aged out of bar-hopping all night until the bars close.

No bar-hopping for this eldergay. Even if I could stay up that late, the music they're listening to these days is painful to my ears. I like living in the city for other reasons, but the nightlife is no longer one of them. Even the Atlantic House in P'town has become too loud for me and it's full of fellow oldsters.

I agree it’s for the middle aged and over. No gay man under 35 should be living in the suburbs. Perfect for a domestic life with your husband. But it’s a waste of youth to live in the suburbs in your 20s.

There's a lot more to life than going out to bars and hooking up.

[quote]But it’s a waste of youth to live in the suburbs in your 20s.

Every single early-mid 20s person I know in NYC is being subsidized by their parents.

Maybe in Manhattan R203, but there are plenty in Brooklyn, Queens, Jersey City who are doing it on their own. (Which of course raises the question as to whether it's better to live in Jersey City so be near Manhattan or just move to Nashville )

Agree R204. And I think it’s better to live in Jersey City than Nashville. That guys description of the issues with living in the “hot” cities of the South is spot on. Really nails the issues - while acknowledging it’s a fine choice for some, perfectly explains why I could never do it.

I thought he came off as something of a dick actually R205. Seemed overly concerned with continuing to live his single 20something life in another city and not all that concerned with the wife and kid. Nothing about how life was for either of them in Nashville, just that he didn't have enough bars and coffee shops he could walk to or weekend destinations in driving distance.

R206 is spot on. He need to grow up

[quote] but there are plenty in Brooklyn, Queens, Jersey City who are doing it on their own.

Brooklyn? Are you kidding? It's the same as Manhattan. I know several who've lived in Queens who were subsidized. The days of moving to NYC as a middle class kid and supporting yourself have been over for years. Even in the later 90s it's was pretty tough.

Bullshit R208

Not in Park Slope or Williamsburg, but there are some seedy ass parts of Brooklyn that are very cheap.

Even Bushwick in the 00s was low cost.

Ditto Queens. Maybe not prime Astoria, but plenty of cheap housing in places like Woodside and Ridgewood.

No one is subsidizing all the immigrant families living in those places.

Who the hell is talking about immigrant families? We're talking about American kids.

Sure there are some in the way outer boroughs who are living with three roommates, but many are being subsidized.

So much bullshit on this thread.

Plenty of kids graduate from college with good paying jobs in NYC and support themselves while still in their 20s.

But yes, if you want to be an improv performer and wait tables in the interim, you will need your parents to pay your rent in NYC.

And likely in Nashville, Austin and any number of other cities.

[quote] And if the burbs are for white racists? Tell that to my black and brown neighbors, who take great care of their property.

Mary!

There are certainly some high paying fields where that is true r212, but for most college graduates an entry level salary is not going to support your own apartment in a hot neighborhood.

People making it on their own start off with roommates. And will live in Bed Stuy or somewhere like that.

Just like it’s always been - kids shack up 3 or 4 in an apartment to make it more affordable. Bushwick is filled with kids paying their own way. It’s always possible if you want it. You can live as a waiter in NYC - no college or trust fund required. Yes Manhattan has become less attractive. But plenty of kids still come to NYC or SF and figure out how to make it.

Agreed R215

But clearly someone on here is furious that his friend group are all being subsidized at some level by their parents and he isn't

You will inevitably run into those 20-somethings with non impressive careers mysteriously having their own nice apartment, probably in Williamsburg or East Village.

There are a lot of kids from wealthy families who live in New York, so it's a a definite factor. But of course that poster exaggerates by saying that describes all young people.

He should grow up because he still wanted the amenities of a major city r205 r206? That's nonsensical.

He thought he would be okay with a smaller, less dense urban area. Then realized he wasn't. And obviously he was very unfamiliar with the South before moving there.

Dear Lord in Heaven!

"Who the hell is talking about immigrant families? We're talking about American kids."

Immigrants ARE Americans, dumbass

R220 Depends how you define Americans. I don't believe immigrants immediately become Americans just by virtue of setting foot on American soil. An immigrant can become American, but it takes time as they settle and assimilate.

And, if you define it as citizenship, it of course doesn't happen until they take the oath.

[quote]But clearly someone on here is furious that his friend group are all being subsidized at some level by their parents and he isn't

I notice this constantly on DL - "I don't like what this poster is saying so I'm going to make up my own narrative."

Sorry dude, but that's not my narrative at all.

I was merely commenting that I don't know anyone in their early/mid 20s who aren't being subsidized by their parents. This has been going on for years. I'm not bitter at all. It just is what it is.

Yes, there are people living out in the hinterlands of the outer boroughs who are living with four roommates and supporting themselves, but believe me there aren't as many as there used to be just because the economic realities of NYC have changed so much. "Making it" i.e. living a Manhattan lifestyle costs a fortune these days and many people know they're not going to ever be in that socioeconomic category so they don't even bother with NYC.

As has already been said, other cities are not the backwaters they used to be and have attracted a lot of young professionals. LA, NY and SF are not the end-all be-all of city living in the US in the 21st Century, as they were with your generation.

[quote] Sorry dude, but that's not my narrative at all.

And I give out brightly colored eggs to good Christian children on Easter Sunday.

Good for you r223. You would kill to live my life, believe me.

I don’t know any 20-something’s who would admit to being subsidized by their parents.

bleak at r167. can we start a gofundme to get a whore to that norwegian suburb?

Good for you r225. But the world is different than your experience.

Me- I don't want to rely on a car, I work odd, want to feel safe in my neighborhood 24/7 and not be around Trump voters.

You- OMG, you're a mentally ill, addict, freak and entitled white cunt frozen in time.

Me- I rest my case.

^odd hours.

I've worked with grads/undergrads for about 10 years, not a single one ever said that their first choice was Winston/Salem, Orlando, LouieVuitton County or Columbus, OH but they settled for NY.

You think we're frozen in time but actually, we've lapped you 3 times and you didn't notice because you never looked up from your phone.

Methodology section below.

This is SmartAsset’s fifth annual study on where millennials are moving. Read last year’s version here.

Key Findings

Moving West and South. Six out of the top 10 cities in the study are located in Western U.S., with the other four in the South. Colorado and Texas each have two cities in the top 10 – Denver and Colorado Springs in the Centennial State, and Austin and Frisco in the Lone Star State. Leaving the biggest cities. Millennials are flowing out most from the largest city in the country. New York City lost a net of almost 40,000 from this generational group in 2019. The second-largest outflow came from Chicago, with a net decrease of more than 11,000 millennials. Other big cities with net migration losses, placing at the bottom of our study, include Los Angeles, San Diego, Boston and Miami. States with no income tax. Five of the top 10 cities where millennials are moving have no state income tax on salaries and wages: Seattle, Washington; Austin, Texas; Frisco, Texas; Henderson, Nevada and Cape Coral, Florida.

More than 187,000 people between the ages of 25 and 39 moved to Texas in 2019, while nearly 154,000 left, creating a net gain in millennial residents of more than 33,000 – the biggest net gain for this generational group in the country. As a result, Texas leads the study for a second consecutive year.

Another state near the top of the list is Colorado, which saw net inflows of more than 29,500. Colorado also had the biggest percentage increase in the number of millennials, at 2.21%, and though the proportion of millennials is higher in the District of Columbia, Colorado is the state where millennials make up the biggest portion of the population, at 23.26%.

To complete the Western contingent up top, Washington and Arizona join Colorado to round out the top four.

1. Denver, CO

Denver, Colorado claims first place in our study with the biggest net migration of millennial residents, as 10,974 millennials moved to the city from a different state in 2019. Additionally, this generational group makes up 32.92% of the city’s population, which is the fifth-highest percentage overall.

2. Seattle, WA

The millennial population in Seattle, Washington grew by 2.42% in 2019, with a net migration of 6,164 from out of state. This generational group happens to make up 33.86% of the city’s population, the highest in our top 10.

3. Phoenix, AZ

Millennials are 23.23% of Phoenix, Arizona’s population — or 390,570 out of more than 1.68 million. This generational group grew by 1.53% in 2019, with a net migration of 5,958 millennials to Phoenix from out of state.

4. Austin, TX

Austin, Texas millennials make up 31.30% of its population, which is the 11th-highest population percentage for this generational group in our study. The city had a net migration of 5,686 millennials from out of state in 2019.

5. Colorado Springs, CO

Colorado Springs, Colorado had a 2019 net migration of 5,050 millennials from out of state, which is an increase of 4.49%. This generational group makes up 23.54% of the city’s population — or 112,579 out of 478,215.

6. Frisco, TX

The millennial population of this Dallas suburb grew by 9.15% in 2019, with a net influx of 3,516 from out of state. This generational group makes up 19.16% of Frisco’s population, which adds up to 38,419 out of 200,513.

7. Cary, NC

Cary, North Carolina has the smallest population in our top 10, with 171,143 residents. The city had a net migration of 3,364 millennials from out of state in 2019, which is a 9.41% jump – the biggest percentage increase in our study.

8. Portland, OR

The millennial population in Portland, Oregon grew by 1.73% in 2019, with a net migration of 3,311 from out of state. This generational group makes up 29.23% of the city’s total population, which adds up to 191,026 out of 653,467.

9. Henderson, NV

Located close to Las Vegas, Henderson’s millennial population grew by 4.65% in 2019, with a net migration of 3,042 millennials from out of state. This generational group makes up 20.45% of the city’s population — 65,470 out of 320,190 people.

10. Cape Coral, FL

Cape Coral, Florida claims 10th place in the study. Millennials make up 18.21% of the population, which adds up to 35,412 out of 194,504. This generational group grew by 7.53% in 2019, with a net migration into the city of 2,666 from out of state.

Joel Kotkin, a professor at Chapman University in Orange County, Calif., said Americans have long been a restless population — mainly moving out of big cities into suburbia and beyond. But he said the pandemic has accelerated the desire to pull up stakes and relocate for many.

“The trend of moving out of expensive cities to metro areas and regions with more reasonable housing prices had been speeding up before the coronavirus arrived,” he said. “But the pandemic and the ability to work remotely from home is really altering things. It totally changes where you have to live.”

Even after the pandemic ends and a coronavirus vaccine is widely available, he said upwards of 20 percent of the population may no longer have to commute to offices. Before the pandemic, he estimated only 6 percent worked from home.

Twenty percent of the population may no longer have to commute to offices.

“If it is indeed 20 percent, that’s a huge number,” he said. [In August, the U.S. workforce totaled 141 million, which means more than 28 million people would be working from home.]

“Of course, essential workers will still have to go into their places of employment. But we’ll get a major dispersion of people. With a computer and a good internet connection, you could live in a nice suburb or on a farm.”

Kotkin said studies during the past half-century show that most people over the age of 30 would like to live in a single-family house, a preference that hasn’t changed. “Some, of course, prefer higher density and that figure is about 15 percent,” he said. “But if people have the choice, most millennials would move to where it’s more affordable, where they are closer to the things they like to do and, if they have kids, bigger yards, good schools and safe neighborhoods.”

I live in one of those buildings on a city street near the train on the Harlem Line in Westchester. Since the pandemic, people have been selling their apts in droves to get out for greener pastures, presumably more space for less money since they no longer have to commute to NYC. Who's moving in? People leaving NYC for more space for less money. They'll feel right at home here - little parking and a 10 YEAR waiting list for the garage.

The South and West are booming. Exurbs are the hot destinations

I live in the burbs of Houston down towards NASA. Precovid the traffic was getting worse but, holy shit, is it ever bad now. A ton of people must have migrated in. I live in an area of waterfront homes and yachting marinas so it's very desirable and much more laid back with lots of sailing types, not the uptight conservative yuppies in The Woodlands or the affluent rednecks of Katy.

How many miles out does Houston’s sprawl extend?

Half the people I know plan to move to Texas, Florida, Arizona, or North Carolina

R238 last I heard over 600 miles.

[quote] I live in an area of waterfront homes and yachting marinas

That sounds really lovely. I would do that in a minute, if I could.

I like Houston

The surge of the suburbs is only making environmental issues even worse

Even if it’s a small city I will always live in the city.

I’m a suburban person

I'm sorry, but Cape Coma... I mean, Cape Coral... has literally zero appeal to millennials, unless maybe they inherited their parents' house there & kept it. It's bad enough living in SWFL if you're straight, let alone gay. And unless you have your own place & can host, you'll have no sex life, because literally everyone who's fuckable lives with their parents & can't host, either.

^No gay bar but Cape Coral has it's very own KKK chapter. Also, great schools for the concerned fraus. r112, that's Henderson.

Texas has 892 hate groups, 52 chapters of KKK, 5 of them in/near Frisco.

That list above is 5 cities and 5 Republiqunt nightmares for a gay man. Perfect examples of Suburban Hell. If you're a self-loathing, Christian who thinks you're going to hell, Colorado springs is the place for you. It's the capitol of Anti-gay hate.

What percentage of armed Trump voters are your neighbors? Texas, 70, Florida 50, Ohio 40, NYC 10.

tl;dr- new apt buildings are cheap construction, exploiting building codes. Also, millennials are soft.

Every train stop in NJ has these type of apartments, now I know why. My nephew got a great job in NY. His wife refused to live in a place that didn't have a brand new toilet so they ended up in one of these. Ironically, she's very vocal and proud about her culture's 5,000 year history, she just doesn't want to use their toilets.

I have/had 8 first cousins all of us did at least one interesting things in our youths. I have 6 nieces/nephews, all of them with great educations and good jobs. None of them ever took a risk or had a job where they got their hands dirty or was without cell service for more than 5 minutes. Oh, and all my cousins/siblings lied to their kids about their pasts.

At a family funeral/ covid/ we decided to take a walk. I implored them to leave their cell phones at home while we walked around the block. 2 out of 5 complied and their anxiety was palpable. I fear this generation doesn't even know who they are without their phones and IG.

FOMO is a terrible thing, R249.

I don’t like to go without my phone. I don’t see anything wrong with wanting to be connected at all times

It's not about wanting to be connected, which is normal, it's that you have a panic attack when you cant. As an experiment, walk out your front door without your phone (and your wallet, for the very brave). How far away from your front door do you get before you have a panic attack? Can you walk around the block without money and a phone for 15minutes?

-The survey showed that there were negative psychological effects of smartphone usage on the young generation. They felt depressed and anxious while using cell phones. On the other hand, some youngsters showed relax behavior even without having a cell phone. A study investigated the addiction to the internet and personality traits and found that loyalty, emotional stability, and extroversion were the major predictors of internet addiction

Phoenix? Get real.

You can find KKK and WS in any state, city and small town. They may hide but they are there. If you live in some liberal enclave and think they are immune, you are lying to yourself.

I think tech addicts are people who are afraid to be alone or don't know what to do by themselves. I'm an introvert and happiest by myself. I was raised to entertain myself and my parents, like many of their generation, had their own separate lives that didn't include us kiddies. Each afternoon we were expected to go to our rooms and do homework, read, play with toys or whatever while she got dinner ready. Too many kids now are constantly surrounded by parents, given ipads and tablets at a ridiculously young age and don't develop any ability to be independent. Whole families eat out together, each one tethered to a device, ignoring each other.

As a Dateline/Discovery ID addict, I know that the one time you go to take a walk without your phone is when you will be abducted and never seen again.

"These young whippersnappers and their goddamn phones! Back in my day we didn't need 'em! Now get off my lawn!"

Not true R257. They are a useful tool but dangerous when you let them rule your life. Anxiety over no phone? Shit, enjoy the peace.

R248 Where are you getting your information from? The SPLC only lists 54 hate groups total for Texas, by contrast they list 72 in California.

I’m a huge extrovert. I am also news and trending junkie. I fear I’m Missing out when not connected by media

Suburbs are only good if you like relations with married men and swingers. Otherwise not worth your time.

r259 You're right, Try this. What is the population of your town? Mine is 9m, roughly. How many people in your town voted for Trump? Mine had 85,000 or about 6 percent. What percentage of people own fire arms in your town? 70 percent? Mine is 10-15, stats are hard to find. Say 20 or less than 3 time the amount in Texas and half the amount in Ohio.

When your comparing hate group numbers, you're losing.

[quote]Suburbs are only good if you like relations with married men and swingers. Otherwise not worth your time.

What decade are you posting from? In the 21st Century there are millions of out gay people who live in suburban areas.

Fairfield County is FULL of homosexuals.

R262 That was SPLC Feb 2017, their current numbers are different. They now list 72 active ones in CA, 54 in Texas, 68 in FL, 37 in NY, etc...

Good lord, there are hate groups everywhere. Not sure why y'all are arguing which state has more.

R262 There is no city in the US with 9 million people, I assume you mean NYC and just rounded up(NYC isn't expected to actually reach 9million until 2040). However, you are evidently only looking at New York County(Manhattan) to get the 85,000 number for Trump. The population of New York County is 1.632 Million. Trumps percentage would be between 5 and 6%, of the total population but comes out to 12.3% of votes cast in that county. However, the city of New York covers 5 boroughs which are in five counties, New York County(Manhattan), Bronx County, Kings County(Brooklyn), Queens County, and Richmond County(Staten Island). Across the city, Trump received around 691,682 votes in 2020, which would come out somewhere around 8-9% of the total population, but equals around 23% of the votes actually cast in NYC.

R266 That is mainly my point. I'm tired of people thinking such things are only in "other" states, when there is plenty of it in your own backyard. It is like in the Civil Rights era, people in the North liked to think it was a "Southern" problem while ignoring their own racial issues.

Depends on the area r263. Any huge blue metropolitan area, of course.

^^I'm talking about population and you know it. Run the numbers on your own (unnamed) town/suburban paradise with a large population.

When I go to dinner in Houston I have a 50 percent chance of sitting next to a Trump voter who owns a firearm, if I drive to the Woodlands it goes up to about 80 percent.

I trust my 1 gang member with a gun more than your 8 Trump voting, racist, stupid, POS. 1/6 should tell you where the real danger is in USA.

R269, I live in Houston and I don't worry who I'm near in a restaurant. Why do you?

I love these people who are aghast at the possibility they're sitting next to Republicans if they're in a restaurant in a red state. If I'm in Lower Manhattan and sitting in a bar or restaurant and I'm surrounded by Wall St./Finance douchebros, guess what? Chances are there are a lot of Republicans in that mix.

R270 Some people are crazy. I don't give a fuck who else is at a restaurant or store, while I'm there.

"I live in Houston and I don't worry who I'm near in a restaurant."

Are you armed?

No R273, I'm not a gun owner

[quote] Good lord, there are hate groups everywhere. Not sure why y'all are arguing which state has more.

If you're not white and you are considering moving, these things do become a concern.

Yet plenty of Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc. seem to get along quite well with Whites R275. Yes there are problems but for the most part we get along just fine. What kind of shithole are you living in?

r271, Exactly! The 85k Trump voters, the greedy selfish assholes, ignorant qunts or racist pricks are primarily located Wall St and Upper East Side making it easy to avoid them. Unlike Houston, where everyone goes to Papadeauxs, you, your ex, your mother, her church group, your co-workers, everyone. True story, a social dilemma = Do you say grace before each course or just the entrees? Is it wrong to save my most sincere prayer for the alcohol?

What kind of weirdos you hanging around R277?

It's just like this.

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