What is the Bible to you?

A shitty book

A ridiculous collection of fairy tales.

A doorstop

Keep dreaming, sweetheart. Delusions can be very comforting.

The deist minister Joseph Barker, speaking in 1854 at the Hartford Bible Convention, described the Bible as "the most inconsistent, the most monstrous and blasphemous representations of God that can possibly be conceived by the human mind"

Is the Bible the oldest book that has been in continual printing/production?

The Bible is a series of Looney Toon adventures in hell.

One of the biggest anchors on scientific progress ever written.

So many gay people think that being gay is incompatible with believing in the Bible.

If that's true, then why do gay people even want to get married?

Marriage is an institution that came about because of the Bible. So why should we get married, if it's a "religious" event?

I really hope you're trolling r8. I really do.

R8, marriage existed long before the Bible! Duh -Marriages in the Old Testament/Torah.

What is there about this book that causes ordinarily sane people to lose all sense, perspective, and reason??

[quote]It stands to reason that if you believe in a "higher power," then why is it impossible for you to believe that many of the biblical events happened?

OP, one believes in a 'higher power' without evidence, 'by faith,' and it takes that kind of credulity to believe that the stories in the bible actually happened. If one does the slightest amount of honest digging on biblical stories, one finds that they didn't happen. But believers generally avoid that kind of investigation, and spent a lot of mental energy insulating themselves against facts.

[quote]Marriage is an institution that came about because of the Bible.

No, R8 - marriage - ceremonies which unite two people - existed long before the bible.

A bunch of made up stories with 5% historical accuracy to control the masses with morality and fear.

A ridiculous fairy tale. Religion is just an excuse to worship the self anyway. I’ve never met anyone who takes the whole book at face value. And there are a million little sub sects all arguing over the details. 12 different little churches in 10 square miles all claiming they serve the “community” when one would do (and better bring people together anyway). If you don’t like something in the Bible you just ignore it and pretend God didn’t mean it lmao. I have yet to meet someone who is pro-LGBT who disregarded that value because their Lord commanded it or a bigot change his values because the Lord said Love Thy Neighbor. Everyone just ignores the bits they don’t like so they can wield the other parts like weapons. It shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Why must you religious nut bags try to shove your faith down people’s throats at every opportunity? Why? Aren’t there thousands and millions of other places on the Internet where people are more receptive to religious dogma? Why must you come here and do it? Don’t you realize that this is a site for gay people, and that your church has been persecuting us for millennia using your precious Bible as a weapon? Huh? Do you? And do you understand why do many of us thoroughly loathe you Bible-pushers? Well? Can you wrap your tiny little religions-addled brains around that? Hmm? Can you?

If you get a real, old-fashioned, leather-bound family Bible it makes a decent doorstop. If it doesn't work for that, there's always kindling.

A pile of shit.

[quote] And given that there are 66 books, how do you explain the consistency?

The consistency you're claiming isn't there. Try reading with a critical eye. (link provided as a suggested starting point for someone unaccustomed to looking at the bible that way)

[quote]The Greek scriptures actually align with the Hebrew scriptures.

In what way, OP? They're completely different texts. The Jewish Testament was (generally speaking) written in Hebrew, and the New Testament was composed in Greek.

[quote]But even if you don't believe the contents of The Bible, don't you just find the accounts and the history utterly fascinating? I do.

Well, one might find it fascinating the same way one finds a body of fantasy literature, say, Poe, or Lovecraft. But one shouldn't accept any of it as "history." That's like regarding 𝐀𝐛𝐫𝐚𝐡𝐚𝐦 𝐋𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐨𝐥𝐧: 𝐕𝐚𝐦𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐞 𝐇𝐮𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐫 (2012) as a factual, historical account of the life of Abraham Lincoln.

Consistency? Oh, Mary. I mean, seriously, Mary. How many women were at the Cross? Who was at the empty tomb? Consistency? Nope.

It's a great way to knock the wind out of a child before you rape him.

God/Universe/The All sorely misrepresented with the expressed desire of men to insist that their laws and says came about via epiphany and Divine inspiration. And that's where the buck stops - any religious leader can tell you truly that all religions text is the INSPIRED word of God. They say that God created man in His own image, but in all actuality, it was man who created THEIR version of God in THEIR own image.

The One, True, Living and Everlasting God is far, far greater than any depiction in any religious text. "God" lives and It has lived forever.

I was raised with Bible stories and the occasional trip to church, but I also loved dinosaurs. For the longest time, I couldn't get how the Garden of Eden and dinosaurs (and cave men) fit together. Then one day, it hit me: there were actual fossil records for both dinosaurs and cave men, but I had only seen "evidence" of Adam and Eve as a story in a book. Oh, so one was true and the other just a made-up story! Everything clicked into place at that point. I was probably about 8 years old when I got it. For the life of me, I can't understand why it isn't that obvious to everyone.

Never read it, never will. It makes people do bad things in the name of it.

OP, the Bible is a hodgepodge collection of historical fiction and poetry, along with what my be the earliest-recorded version of an acid trip (Revelations). It is horribly inconsistent. A middle-schooler could do better as far as keeping it consistent. The translations through the years, far from being divinely inspired, are abysmal with major meanings being entirely corrupted. I do not find it the least bit uplifting or enlightening. It's not even good historical fiction.

For the record, I have read it more than once, and studied it in classes -and I stand by my opinions above. As R13 says, most adherents simply pick and choose the parts they want to believe or take literally. No rational person could ever take it seriously.

I use it to wipe my ass.

OP, I highly recommend the book 𝐺𝑜𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑙 𝐹𝑖𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠 by Randel Helms. Read it with an open mind.

Why do mentally ill cultists invade DL? Can't you go fuck YOURSELF for once?

Or any of you could learn how to read it. It's and instruction on how to learn understanding. Not in the way those above are commenting about, or most people in the rest of the wold think it means. It's a complex work.

I'm not holding up just the Bible, a lot of religious texts are. I actually believe they all lead to the same thing, although through different methods. If I had to do everything over again, I would have become a theology major. If I never did anything with it in the "real world" with that study I don't care. It's infinitely fascinating to me.

It's for stupid people who don't like the "real world". It gives them fantasy power.

[quote]Is the Bible the oldest book that has been in continual printing/production?

No, R5. That would probably be the works of Homer.

Interesting, since many of the biblical narratives are based upon Homer.

It's intentionally obtuse and difficult. Through the eye of the needle and all that, to keep it simple for you.

The bible is a collection of old oral histories mixed with historical fiction and some out-right fantasy.

It literally means nothing to me.

OP? What is the Koran to you?

This question is just as legitimate as the one you asked us.

[quote] It's and instruction on how to learn understanding.

OMG. Just stop now. You are only doing damage to yourself.

It was written and rewritten by people who didn't know shit or understand what the average eight year old can understand.

A nice floor wedge for the wobbly end of an antique table.

Good for lining bird cages and cat boxes.

I liken it to the Greeks accounts of the gods. Nice stories about things that ordinary men at the time needed to tell to attempt to understand the world. It's outdated and was written by men who were trying to find a way to control women and the ignorant masses. The 10 commandments was lifted straight from the The Code of Hammurabi. The entire Christian religion is just a mish mash of other beliefs and gods that predated Christ. It's sort of sad, really that people still believe this archaic, derivative text.

I've encountered way more atheist zealots than I have religious zealots in my entire life.

The Greeks texts the “New Testament”) “align” with the Hebrew texts (the “Old Testament”) because they are modeled on them. It’s not an amazing coincidence; the writers of the Greek Bible knew the Hebrew Bible, and patterned Jesus after Moses. Mysterious origin? Check. Lawgiver? Check. Magician? Double check. It’s a fascinating, bizarre literary exercise, not a miracle.

OP A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel.

Have you ever played the game Telephone? In case you haven't here is an explanation from Wikipedia

[quote] Players form a line or circle, and the first player comes up with a message and whispers it to the ear of the second person in the line. The second player repeats the message to the third player, and so on. When the last player is reached, they announce the message they heard to the entire group. The first person then compares the original message with the final version. Although the objective is to pass around the message without it becoming garbled along the way, part of the enjoyment is that, regardless, this usually ends up happening. Errors typically accumulate in the retellings, so the statement announced by the last player differs significantly from that of the first player, usually with amusing or humorous effect.

Now imagine the story of a man called Jesus being retold over a 40 year period before it was ever written down, apparently no one at the time thought it was important enough to even write down. You are telling me that I should lead my life based on a story that was retold for 40 years before it was ever written down? HHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHHA

The "Tree of Knowledge" is bad in the bible. Pretty much says it all...

It's a great way to make tax free money off of stupid frightened people.

We are all atheists. I just don't believe in one less god than you do.

[quote] The 10 commandments was lifted straight from the The Code of Hammurabi.

I'd be interested in the evidence that supports this.

Code of The Code of Hammurabi

Kindling.

The "consistency"? Girl, I'll have what you're smoking.

My question for OP is, why don't you believe in the Greek Gods? Why does the Hebrew Bible seem more real to you than the tales of the Titans or Zeus etc?

Can I just post a turd? Same thing.

I know what the Code of Hammurabi is. I don't see the strong correlation between it and the Ten Commandments.

and The Code of Hammurabi was written into stone...sound familar?

[quote]I'd be interested in the evidence that supports this.

R44, try 𝐼𝑛𝑣𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝐺𝑜𝑑'𝑠 𝐿𝑎𝑤: 𝐻𝑜𝑤 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐶𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑛𝑎𝑛𝑡 𝐶𝑜𝑑𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐵𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑒 𝑈𝑠𝑒𝑑 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑅𝑒𝑣𝑖𝑠𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐿𝑎𝑤𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝐻𝑎𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑟𝑎𝑏𝑖, by David P. Wright.

I like the part where they take a knife to babies genitalia.

LOL. OK. Never mind, r50.

Fanfiction.

Boring, prosaic, wildly-inconsistent and poorly-written collaborative fanfic in need of severe edits and beta reads, at that.

So then how many of you so dispute the bible still believe in a "higher power" whatever that might be?

Yeah, PD, but the covenant code is much more than the Ten Commandments.

Like I told, r50, never mind.

It is meaningless to me, I never even think about it. Biblical stories are as fanciful as L Ron Hubbard's stories.

It's a great way to fantasize about mass killings and lurid sex.

It’s broken. Doesn’t make sense. Contradictions, false logistics...

[quote] Marriage is an institution that came about because of the Bible.

Assuming that was from the OP; why are you spouting things like this that are provably false? People were getting married before the Bible existed, people were getting married in the far East, people who had never even heard of the bible were getting married, MARRIAGE DID NOT COME ABOUT BECAUSE OF THE BIBLE.

[quote] So why should we get married, if it's a "religious" event?

Marriage is not a religious event, it is a government approved business contract. You could get married a hundred times in a church, but without a marriage license issued by the government you are not married.

So if God raped Mary, a married virgin, does that mean Joseph exclusively fucked her in the ass?

Religion kills. It always has; it always will. Humankind must evolve.

Umm, I'd like and ANSWER to my J fucking M in the ass question please. Get on it, theologians.

[quote]Yeah, PD, but the covenant code is much more than the Ten Commandments.

Yes, R56, it's another part of the Book of Exodus. Is it that you're willing to accept that it's derivative, but insist that the Ten Commandments are not?

The Ten Commandments aren't even particularly practical. Despite all of Cecil B. DeMille's bloviating about slavery, the Ten Commandments does not even spare a command prohibiting it.

One of the greatest works of fiction ever written.

Check out this site, OP. It might help open your mind by forcing you to reevaluate the stories you swallowed uncritically over the years.

No such thing as a "higher power." I don't feel like that makes a difference in my life, but if the idea of not believing in a higher power upsets you, then perhaps you should consider why that is. Here is the thing...if an atheist was suddenly presented with indisputable evidence of a god, their lives would not change much. If a religious person was shown proof that there was no god or gods, their lives would change dramatically. That says it all.

r59, I'm R27 and R30. It's intentionally obtuse. There is a reason for that. Sorry it's not all laid out for you. There are things in life you have to work for and are worth working for. It really is that understanding. It's not easy.

Finally, the TRUTH.

[quote] Is it that you're willing to accept that it's derivative, but insist that the Ten Commandments are not?

That's not what I think or said. I asked for evidence to consider that the Ten Commandments (specifically) are based on Hammurabi's Code. My mind is open to the possibility.

if you cannot see the similarities, r70, perhaps you need to work on some reading skills.

[quote] if you cannot see the similarities, [R70], perhaps you need to work on some reading skills.

Thanks. You convinced me.

Thank you R69 for the one clear truth. Also, thank you for 69. It's my religion.

The Gospels are the only important part, detailing the life of Jesus. The Old Testament stuff is all garbage.

It’s inferior to the real Chronicle of the Gods.

Those "details" are pretty fucking vague.

You should also research all the dying and rising gods that predated Christ. Soooo many were born of a virgin, then crucified or died another way and after three days were resurrected.

It's really hard to know this and yet still insist your Christ was special and not just yet another in a long line of metaphorical, non existent gods.

I like some chorus boys writhing around when I get on my knees.

The Bible / Christianity is, like all religions and "sacred" texts, authored by humans in order to [bold]control other humans[/bold] — especially those of lower intelligence. How lucky of you to be raised in the true and correct religion, OP. What are the chances!?

[quote]My mind is open to the possibility.

Is it really, though, R70?

Sections of Hammurabi's Code deal with respecting one's elders, killing, adultery, stealing, and bearing false witness, analogous to Commandments 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, the ones which deal with one's conduct towards others. Commandments 1, 2, 3, 4, and 10 are irrelevant and impractical.

And if the Ten Commandments held any kind of unique insight or virtue, why is it that they do not prohibit slavery, mistreatment of children, or rape?

I suspect there isn't much overlap between the Ten Commandments and Hammurabi's Code. The Code is practical and specific. The Commandments include a lot of gassing about how important "the Lord" is, and touchy, some nonsense about coveting, an admonition about honoring parents, whatever that means. A "don't kill each other you violent fuckwits," which admittedly may have been useful. Parts of the Mosaic Code may have been lifted from hammurabi, or maybe the Babylonians more generally, but I suspect the Commandments themselves are largely their own foolishness.

🎶it’s all....gone SOuURRRRRR!!!!!

Funny how we never have posters on here starting threads with "What is the Quran to you?" or "What is The Vedas to you?"

Just think OP, if you were born in another culture or on another continent where those are sacred you would be asking a very different question. Religion is simply the byproduct of your culture. Your idea of a god is simply inherent on where you were born and to whom. How can that be trusted as truth? How can any of the religions be trusted?

[quote] Is it really, though, [R70]?

Yes. You have no evidence or reason to doubt or question that.

[quote] Sections of Hammurabi's Code deal with respecting one's elders, killing, adultery, stealing, and bearing false witness, analogous to Commandments 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9

What else would you have in a law code other than these things? Seems pretty generic.

[quote] Commandments 1, 2, 3, 4, and 10 are irrelevant and impractical.

So...not related in any way to Hammurabi's law code...even generically?

well, sort of r79. That is certainly what successful religions turn into. And there is really masterful propaganda going on inside the Bible (and I suspect the Quran, and Book of Mormon, and the Vedas, etc, etc, etc to eternity), but is that really how everything starts and is that really the impetus for the people that actually start religions?

For Christianity, at least, was it really, hey we're going to piss off every Roman and Jew in the Mediterranean, probably get killed for it, but 300 years from now ... Profit!!!

if you are in America, they won't, R80. I have yet to meet one. There might be one off jokes or comments, but all out hatred is going to be about Christianity. And it's funny because I have a small cross that I wear only once in a while. I am more comfortable wearing it around Muslims than I am atheists. I have actually been "called out" for wearing it around atheists. Muslims are actually appreciative and respectful.

I'm r86, and i meant to reference r83, not r80

To me, it was the worst goddamn Christmas present ever. A personalized green faux leather bible, some lifesavers candy and $5.00. Fuck you, cheapskate Kraut grandpa.

[quote]A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel.

Considerably longer than that, R40. Were you aware of the work of Hermann Detering on the "Little Apocalypse" in Mark 13? That its 𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑢𝑠 𝑎 𝑞𝑢𝑜 may be situated, not in 70 CE after the initial destruction of the Temple, but in 135 CE, at the Bar Kochba Revolt, precipitated by the attempt of Hadrian to place a 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑢𝑒 of Jupiter in a rebuilt temple on the site of the 'Holy of Holies'…? This was the actual nature of the "abomination of desolation, standing where it ought not" (Mark 13:14), which allows an accurate dating of Mark's gospel (or at least this part of it). That would place the distance between the purported death of Jesus and the first gospels at more than a century.

Closet queens like to quote it on Twitter.

Well, there is a special role for Jesus in Islam, r86, so I can't say I'm terribly surprised by that. Also, there is some vague "religious solidarity" going on, but none of that makes any religion true of course. And I'd be curious what the atheists call you out about, and if you actually have any answers for their objections.

[quote] The Greek scriptures actually align with the Hebrew scriptures.

They were written centuries after the Hebrew scriptures specifically [bold]to[/bold] accord with them. The writers intentionally wanted to show that the ministry of Yeshua bar-Joseph (Jesus) accorded with the prophecies of the Hebrew texts, even if you view the writing of the books of the New Testament through the eyes of faith. t

I appreciate the Bible because it gave us a very beautiful naked Michael Parks.

Great source of quotes

I like the the Bible is all true and that I will be forgiven for all my sins! Ding ding ding!

Michael Parks? Excuse me???!!!!

So much to respond to in you (OP) original post and other things said in this thread. But I observe you are really not interested in how "non-believers" think about the Bible, you want them to adopt your understanding.

Increasingly I am cautious about people "speaking for God" - God also listens. So many religious speak with such assurance, constancy, and self-importance - there is no room to know the world, to know others, to see what God has created. Ya have all the answers, hon.

As far as the inerrant Word of God with no contradictions (over the centuries!!) ever - see this link for a start. Over the centuries indeed - Old Testament and in places the New Testament scripture appears to validate slavery. A chapter in Exodus describes how to sell your daughter into slavery. The Ten Commandments (seems like one of your favorites) describes the advisability of not coveting your neighbor's slaves. Then, of course, the neat direction for parents - if you have a child who's mouthing off to you, take them to the edge of town and stone them to death. So, understanding, "over the centuries" the Bible needs an historical and cultural deconstruction. That is if you think it's not ok for parents to murder their children for backtalk.

Yep, the Word of God - but many who believe that forget or ignore that God is still speaking, and ya might well wanna listen.

[quote] It stands to reason that if you believe in a "higher power,"

But who the hell ever said we who don't believe in the Bible somehow still believe in "a higher power"?

When you assume, you make an ASS out of U, not ME.

Wearing a small gold cross, and told that I have no business wearing it by an atheist because of my sexuality, R91. Told that I need to take it off, etc. So atheists dictate jewelry I wear, good to know.

I have not had that happen with any other religion other than atheism. I have a number of other examples

^^ consistency, no contradictions?

I would like to hear an actual description of this "higher power." I admit it sounds like woo, but maybe somebody has an actual description of this power they'd like to share, that isn't just some vague God is the Universe thing.

this has to be trolling??

Like others have said, the Bible is not consistent. Ever noticed how hard people argue over how to interpret it? All those different branches of Christianity are because you can interpret the Bible differently. And it's entirely possible to believe in a higher power while thinking it's obvious that the Bible is man-made, faux stories.

Why it's all there in the plain language of scripture, r102. If you take this piece from Daniel, and that over there from Isaiah, and this little bit from Romans, and throw in a bit of Matthew, mix it all together with some Revelation, squint, and heave, and consult my calculus of bullshit, it's all there: The Exact Date for the End of the World!!! It's so obvious, to me and my cult.

R101 There are some useful, authentic, powerful descriptions of how "God is just the Universe"... so if you don't want to hear any enumerations or wisdom traditions' descriptions of the Higher Power that lead to this unitary, non-dualistic, universal One, not a lot to offer you.

Ask and you shall receive

[quote]So...not related in any way to Hammurabi's law code...even generically?

R84, not particularly, no, since Commandments 1, 2, 3, 4 were... how did R81 put it? - " largely their own foolishness." The Babylonians were not monotheists, so they wouldn't have had Commandment 1, "no other gods before me." They weren't aniconists, so Commandment 2, " no graven images" would have had no relevance to them. Likewise 3, "take the name in vain," and 4, "remember the Sabbath Day" (though it is worth noting, that the seven-day week came from Babylon, and the Sabbath was derived from the Babylonian 'Shabbatu,' so there's that.) These were cultic commandments, exclusive to Yahwism, and of no practical use to anyone else.

Commandment 10 is impractical, an attempt to police the mind, which the Babylonians did not attempt.

[quote] I have not had that happen with any other religion other than atheism.

Ah, there's your mistake right there.

Atheism is by its very nature expressly NOT a religion. "A-" = "not"; "-theism " = "belief in a deity."

To see all atheists as consistent with one another, or having the same reasons for not believing in a God, is to assume that atheism is a cohesive religion. It is not. It is the pointed [bold]lack[/bold] of a religion.

Honestly, r104, that does just seem like word games. Let's call the universe God. You believe in the universe, right? So you believe in God! Huzzah. But does calling it God actually add anything?

To me, the bible is a short story or proverb anthology similar to Aesop's fables.

It's the combined wisdom of ancient people trying to make sense of the world around them when they lacked the tools to do so. Like Aesop's fables, it gives guidance on ways for people to interact and conveys morality and wisdom from generation to generation.

It's always struck me that things like eating kosher in a time before microscopes, knowledge of germs and bacteria, and refrigeration would provide the best protection against food borne sicknesses. Ritualizing kosher eating standardized food preparation practices.

It is a work of fiction designed to control people like all religions You create an all-knowing all seeing higher power you can see you 24/7 and judges everything you do. If you fail to follow "his" rules you suffer for eternity. If you do as he commands you go to a paradise. It is the basis of most religions.

Half was borrowed from the Jews and the other half was written by some delusional cultists. None of it really has much to do with Europeans, and yet they think it's more important than anything their own ancestral cultures ever produced. It may well be the biggest con job in history.

The Bible, assuming you mean the Hebrew Scriptures: A fascinating mish mash of texts (usually dating well after the dates claimed, but sometimes predating and retaining older materials) reworked in the general directions of monotheistic nationhood but retaining evidence of polytheistic underlays, the development of social/cultural codifications and myth-making, and their refinement into various strands of a moral and ethical system. The last, within the Jewish mythos, remains a foundational source of human civilization.

The New Testament? The same general story, except the mix of sources is closer in time to us and the sometimes savage factionalism in editing is more visible. As a reminder, Jesus is a mythic synthesis from numerous traditions, placed at the center of most of the books and for whom no objective historical evidence exists. The fact of that lack of evidence does not deter fabulists, apologists, misreaders and the unintelligent from insisting otherwise. None of this has anything to do with understanding the value, interest and power of much of the mixed messages still poking through the glossed texts. The diversity and contradictions indicate the limits of ingenuity of even committed editors.

Anything else?

That of course is not the actual basis of Old Testament morality r110, and really not of all religions. Ancient Jews and Greeks and Romans made it pretty clear most people were going to wind up in a grey and dreary land, and probably forget who they were, if they got an afterlife at all. I think we tend to assume with religion if something was true in recent religious history, in a few countries, it was true for all religions everywhere and in every century.

[quote]Wearing a small gold cross, and told that I have no business wearing it by an atheist because of my sexuality, R91. Told that I need to take it off, etc. So atheists dictate jewelry I wear, good to know.

How many atheists are supposed to have done this, R99?

Assuming it even happened (and yes, there's reason to doubt, because of the fallacy you're exhibiting; it's an anecdote being offered in bad faith), doesn't it seem more like that person was wearing their 'gay' hat, rather than their 'unbeliever' hat?

OP, I think it’s malarkey but fascinating, nonetheless. How could anyone not be fascinated by a book that has held so much power for so many centuries?

r113 sorry, so the ten commandments were NOT created to impose morality? The Quran talks about heaven, The Talmud talks about Sheold - a land where people who die go, cut off from god. Both Greek and Roman mythology had heaven and underworld, Norse used Valhalla and Hel, in almost every religion there is a concept of good and evil and what happens to each side.

It's a comic book for stupid people.

Yes, it really does happen. I've lived in a black / middle eastern / east Asian / Mexican, Central, and South American neighborhood for years. I have no issue wearing a cross around anyone that I live around.

I do not wear it around the white people I know

[quote] It is a work of fiction designed to control people like all religions You create an all-knowing all seeing higher power you can see you 24/7 and judges everything you do.

You mean Facebook?

I'm saying there is really no Heaven and Hell in a lot of these religions, including ancient Judaism. Sheol is a vague, dreary place, and many didn't believe in an afterlife at all. Most Greeks and Romans could expect to wind up in Hades, also vague, also grey, also dreary, wandering around, eventually forgetting. Yes a few lucky, heroic souls could get a better afterlife, and a few particularly evil types could expect a lot of nastiness, but for most, death was like life, mostly drudgery.

Now the Norse were pretty straightforward. Be a great warrior, die in battle, go and wait for the end of time to fight with the gods in their (doomed? can't remember) war with the giants.

But the idea that there is an element of control based on getting people to obey the rules so they get to Heaven, that is more specific to a few religions, like Christianity and Islam I believe, and not universal.

Also of course, there are plenty of ways of controlling populations through fear and violence and torture without the slightest need for any priestly intervention, although I won't deny that that can be useful and has been in various places and times.

I took a shit and saw Jesus.

[Quote] taught to believe the Bible accounts

That's very good. It's a good book. You should believe every book you read.

Sunday's outhouse nail hanger.

A.N. Wilson does a wonderful job on “Historical Christ” as well as the best-selling bitchy queen author who fucked up the message, “Paul of Tarsus”.

Your old testament was a collection of oral histories passed down generation to generation that provided a spiritual truth about human beings. Times and situations varied, but the behavior of men delivers the same predictable results.

Now, the promise of heaven and hell was greatly advanced by Paul because Christ insisted on not returning to punish Romans. There had to be some sort of prize for putting up with all this shit.

Our strict constitutionalism and the interpretation of what our founding fathers would have wanted remind me of that “Every word is true because we said so and that’s why.”

Net it out: a perfect being translated through imperfect beings is bound to be messed up and misunderstood. It’s ok. You’re god really shouldn’t be that concerned with the opinions of his clay.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I am very much unsure about the Oral Histories part of this whole equation. The Exodus probably never happened, the whole story of Israel in Egypt probably never happened. A whole history was probably invented by very literate, very sophisticated scribes, and priests, and kings for reasons of their own.

And no, r125.

Ted Haggard has a fascinating oral history.

The Bible contains a lot of wisdom. Also a lot of craziness; a woman made from the rib of a man, a talking snake, a woman who turns into salt, an ark with two of every living creature on earth in it. I can't believe there are people who actually take it literally.

R126, Jews were historically known as a free people of Canaan.

The oral histories were entertainments shared by those who could recall by rote old stories. You have a scribe class that comes into being once this group gained power over surrounding areas.

The worst scam ever perpetrated on the human race.

It's not even written very well. I always thought - if this is the word of God, then he needs to be a lot more clear and get to the point!

It baffled me how people would take passages and read them with this holy, venerating voice. I would just look at them like they were crazy.

Most people who read the Bible consistently have never read any other books.

Oral before text. All are stories, with some history, some deep thinking, some fanciful magic, some fiction, some politics, some pointless bitchery.

I just like that when Jesus died his followers were so distraught they ate his dead body and drank his blood so they could keep him inside them. Trouble is the next day they shit him out. That's what became of Jesus. He was several piles of shit. Praise the holy excrement!

R124 Yep, seems to me an underappreciated truth... St Paul has a lot of issues, and as he's understood now (which is problematic - a gnostic analysis of Paul helps make it all not such a shit show), he really changed Christianity.

R132 Well, do you read Hebrew, Greek? King James English was pretty much Shakespeare's English - has astonishingly beautiful passages. Try the Psalms.

^^ Thomas Jefferson needed to cut and paste a New Testament with only Jesus' reported words.... get rid of obtuse and cranky St. Paul, among others.

To the people who don’t read the Bible, how do you get your morals? How do you know thou shall not steal, murder anyone, covet thy neighbor’s wife? How do you not just be animals? How do you know not to mix fibers, eat shellfish, lie with a man, eat hooved animals, cheat, lie, steal?

We're pretty good on not coveting our neighbor's wife. That is some solid DL morality right there.

I mix wool and polyester. I eat crabs, I don't get them. I eat carbs, I do get those. And I fuck hot guys.

If you think the Bible or any religious text is about morality, you've been misled. It isn't. There is way more to it than that.

Wash your hands and ass before entering church, R139.

There's all those murders, for the murder porn lovers. They kill children like eating potato chips.

Added on to the belief in inerrancy ("men were inspired by God etc....") is the belief that when "men" choose which literary fragments to include in the Bible, they were also "led by the Holy Spirit." That's a lot to believe. It's like believing not only in the Virgin Birth but also that Mary wasn't born of a sexual act.

Gospel of St Thomas (kicked out of the Bible and only discovered again 50 years ago) is much more helpful, useful, wise than much of the New Testament as it stands now.

Yeah! R141, wash your asses alter boys. We don't like messy hole!

Which of course brings us to this:

When nuns are admitted to Heaven they go through a special gate and are expected to make one last confession before they become angels.

Several nuns are lined up at this gate waiting to be absolved of their last sins before they are made holy. "And so," says St. Peter, "have you ever had any contact with a penis?" "Well," says the first nun in line, "I did once just touch the tip of one with the tip of my finger." "OK," says St. Peter, "dip your finger in the holy water and pass on into heaven."

The next nun admits, "Well, yes, I did once get carried away and I, you know, sort of massaged one a bit." "OK," says St. Peter, "rinse your hand in the holy water and pass on into heaven."

Suddenly there is some jostling in the line and one of the nuns is trying to cut in front. "Well now, what's going on here?" says St. Peter. "Well, your excellency," says the nun who is trying to improve her position in line, "If I'm going to have to gargle that stuff, I want to do it before Sister Mary Thomas sticks her ass in it."

"To the people who don’t read the Bible, how do you get your morals? How do you know thou shall not steal, murder anyone, covet thy neighbor’s wife? How do you not just be animals? How do you know not to mix fibers, eat shellfish, lie with a man, eat hooved animals, cheat, lie, steal?"

Um, I simply do not want to steal or murder, but I have coveted. I don't do any of those things because I don't want to, not because some book tells me I will punished if I did them. I mean, do Christians WANT to commit murder and steal shit? That's fucked up if so.

Also r99, a practicing Christian who is also a homosexual is not a true Christian. The Bible states you should be put to death for sleeping with another man so you don't get to just overlook that because you want to. If you want to be a Christian and wear some symbol of death around your neck by all means. Just don't ever put a cock near your mouth or you'll be smitted. Your atheist friends were calling out your bullshit hypocrisy.

Oh everyone just sacrifice a lamb or a sheep or a goat or a calf. It's all fixable, people.

My goat ate through it's tether. Better get the town witch (unmarried opinionated woman).

In a rational society, it would hold about as much value and interest as Greek mythology. Course it never will since Greek myths are actually entertaining to study.

Those are your thoughts and values, R146. Your hatred is not interesting. It's been going on since the beginning of time.

And, R146. You've specifically stated a dogma that I should be forced to believe, condemned me based on very little information about me, and never ever knowing me, yet atheism is allegedly not a religion, and more freeing than traditional religion. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Atheism has become so obnoxious. Don't believe in a God of any kind or in any name, I don't care, but the same can't be said from the other side.

And since this thread was started based on a thread about the ten commandments, where exactly is homosexuality listed in that list? Adultery is specifically mentioned, but not one bit about same sex relationships.

R113/R120 that’s the cool thing about being a Pagan/Heathen. In my faith practise, everyone goes to Annwn (‘the Otherworld’ or ‘the Summerland’) when they die, and stays there in eternal unchanging youth with the Gods until called back to Byd (‘Earth’) for another go on Life’s Wheel. There is no concept of Sin or morality at all in the spiritual texts of ancestral Paganism, particularly not a point-scoring one that gets you into Paradise. There’s a way to be more honourable, more hospitable, more impressive or more heroic than your neighbour, according to Pagan metrics, but not ‘better’ or more worthy of saintliness.

Insufferable.

R148 raises a solid point, that womens’ knowledge and power is an fundamental threat to biblically-faithful Abrahamic faith.

Any woman who resists subjugation—I.e, marriage, childbearing, homemaking, and giving up her vocation and education—is a dangerous malevolent entity, a ‘Witch’ who must be feared and punished and dispatched, rather a than a Wise Woman or a Healer or a Mage to be valued in the community.

Are you unfamiliar with nuns, and other women within religion? this is to R155

Women are treated like shit in most religions. Of course, some are masochists, so they submit to their captors. It's all about submission and dominance. That's why religious people are often perverts who are into manipulation and brainwashing. They love to break people down, especially those who can't fight back, like children, the elderly, alcoholics/drug addicts and those weaker than themselves. It's sick.

[quote] The Bible is a series of Looney Toon adventures in hell.

😂, R6.

Bart Ehrman wrote a series of books about the bible, the origination of bible stories based on whatever message church leaders were trying to tell to the unwashed masses and how christianity went from underground to a dominant force. He's an interesting guy - he started as an evangelical taking the bible literally to a person who doesn't believe in religion at all.

I remember the bible stories as a kid & went to Sunday school, though my parents were never "religious" in any sense. Anyway, his books are very good & provide insight into the origin of biblical stories we know today

Man has always wondered why we exist, how we started, what lies ahead after we die, etc. So I think the Bible is a storybook of those who believe they have an "explanation" or backstory for it all. I'm somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic; not sure what to believe but getting closer to saying "who cares, I don't believe any of it."

I detest how Churches have used the Bible to attack others. Makes me wish they would just teach the Ten Commandments and nothing else.

These "Bible" threads are always guaranteed to bring out lots of vitriol, lunacy, piling ignorance upon ignorance, especially concerning Jews, their Bible, their laws, their history ("free people of Ca'anan? Really R130 ? You have a source text for that absurd assertion?)

First of all there are TWO Bibles. The Jewish Bible, written in Hebrew and Aramaic (R17 with his "generally speaking" does like to hedge/qualify so that his ignorance won't be pointed out to him). The Jewish Bible contains the history, laws, parables, and poetry of the Jewish people. The other Bible is what Xtian thieves stole from the Jews to annihilate them and their identity. That Bible was written in Greek. The writers of that looted text most certainly did NOT know the Jewish Bible or much about Hebrew. They and subsequent translators have translated the Jewish Bible out of all recognition, because they couldn’t read/understand it. Take something as simple and basic as the Sixth Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill". Right? WRONG! From the source text: לא תרצח Don’t MURDER. (Don’t Kill in Hebrew is לא תהרוג)

I have indeed been blessed to be utterly clueless about the contents of the looted Xtian text and therefore never comment about it. Unlike so many, who are clueless about the Jewish Bible, but comment anyway.

For me, the Jewish Bible is the foundation of my identity, my history, culture and very being. It sets out how a Jew must live in the world around him. I am a Jew, descended from Avraham Aveinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, David, Avshalom, Yonatan, Shaul, Shlomo, Yehoshua, Boaz, Ruth, Naomi, Devorah, Batsheva, Ester, etc. etc. in a 5,700 year unbroken line to me. They were indeed a fascinating lot, and I’m proud to have them as my ancestors.

Can anyone recommend any particular ones among the apocryphal books? They look sexy. I enjoy anything Pagan in nature, so the less-acceptable to Christians the better.

R150, I'm r146 and I don't know wtf you are talking about. I don't subscribe to a religion that would see me put to death.

[quote] The other Bible is what Xtian thieves stole from the Jews to annihilate them and their identity...

Oh...and you were doing so well up until then.

The only thing of value to me in the Bible are the Psalms - most of them anyway - and the four gospels, especially the Sermon on the Mount. However, my favorite spiritual texts include the Gospel of Thomas, The Upanishads, The Bhagavad Gita, The Interior Castle, The Dark Night of the Soul, The Cloud of Unknowing, the Tao Te Ching, and various Buddhist texts.

[quote]The other Bible is what Xtian thieves stole from the Jews to annihilate them and their identity...

R164 Which part of that sentence isn't 100% accurate? In fact, every time a priest, minister, pastor quotes the Jewish Bible, they are guilty of breaking the Eighth Commandment, Don't STEAL!

Enjoy your crazy, r166.

And remember this more accurate than you realize turn of phrase:

[quote] These "Bible" threads are always guaranteed to bring out lots of vitriol, lunacy, piling ignorance upon ignorance

R167 Shoot the messenger when you have no response to the message.

Oh, I have a response. Just pretty pointless to make it when you won't listen.

R169 Another shot at the messenger, this time justifying the first shot. Thieves were never very good at clear thinking.

These threads bring out the lunatics, the true believers, on all sides. You have your people of blind faith in religion and people of blind faith in conspiracy theories.

The notion that a handful of Galilean peasants INTENDED to steal from the Jews and annihilate them is ridiculous on its face. They WERE Jews who thought that Jesus was the expected Messiah, despite the fact that he was crucified, and that the end of the world was any minute. They had no future expectation, let alone an expectation that they could steal the identity of the Jews (whatever that means) and annihilate them.

“Bible study” groups = viewpoint reinforcing circle jerks.

[quote] They WERE Jews who thought that Jesus was the expected Messiah,

You're either ignore what doesn't fit your agenda or are truly ignorant. And now skip a couple of hundred years ahead to a man called Constantine when he made Xtianity the official belief of his Empire. The Emperor Thief and Annihilator who looted Jewish texts, denied/removed their Jewish origins and began the destruction of Jews (not a smart idea to leave the witnesses to your theft alive) and than continues to this day.

So again I repeat, every priest, minister, pastor who quotes Jewish text is guilty of the Eighth Commandment, DON'T STEAL!

It's crack for the uneducated with nothing else to do.

And, once again we can repeat, don’t steal from Sumerians.

“Oooh, we made it all up because there was never knowledge of universal laws....”.

Bight a holy spirit’s fart, R173

You can repeat all you want. It still doesn't make it true.

There is absolutely no evidence Constantine had some nefarious plot that had anything to do with Jews when he became a Christian. He hardly knew anything about Christianity and may not have even known it was connected to Judaism. He just saw the way the wind was blowing and hitched himself to the growing religion. All you are doing is placing your conspiracy three hundred years after the actual beginning of Christianity. It's nonsensical conspiracy theory blather.

R175 Xtians know EXACTLY what they looted from the Jews. Pretending to be stupid is yet more rationalization.

R176 Constantine started the Church on its path toward Jew hatred and annihilation. By his time, anti-Jewish hostility and bigotry were well established in Church writings. Your response is a deplorable justification/rationalization of theft and 1,700 years of discrimination, persecution and genocide of Jews.

Oh, no. A conspiracy theorist on the internet disagrees with me and tosses around completely unsupported conspiracy theories against me. Whatever will I do.

Oh who the fuck cares?

I attended Catholic grade school back in the days when teaching religion was nothing more than a series of questions and answered memorized from the old Baltimore Catechism. And you never, ever were allowed to ask questions if one belief appeared to contradict another. And surprisingly enough, there was no focus on actual teachings from the Bible.

I was always secretly envious of "Those Protestant Kids" who attended Sunday School and could recite versus straight from the Bible, and every summer got to attend that two week fun filled event known as Vacation Bible School.

[italic] I Was Robbed !

I am Catholic and went to a parochial school, Jesuit high school, and Jesuit university.

As Catholics, we do not interpret the Bible literally. In freshman year of high school, we read and studied the Old Testament, and we read and studied the New Testament in sophomore year in theology class. The history in it and the history of writing it is fascinating. In college, I took more theology classes, where we went beyond to study various theologians (Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish).

I still like to follow the Daily Readings in the Catholic Missal. They're a great way to center my thoughts for meditation and try to be a better man. Of course, as a gay man I reject the Church's official teachings on sexuality. I seek to work for change from within.

My favorite passage in the New Testament is this: "God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." It's from the First Letter of John. My favorite story from the New Testament. It's about the centurion and his ill servant. It has been interpreted as a reference to gay love. In the Old Testament, the Psalms and the Song of Songs are beautiful. As is the story of Ruth.

Vacation Bibble School is vastly overrated.

Fairy tales and fables. What else could they be?

R182 Was it as fabulous as my Fusilli Jerry ?

This thread is beginning to reek of Matt’s stench.

Seems like a lot of folks in this thread need their meds adjusted.

Yes it does, R185. And Mme. Gaetz had those teens sit on bibles to get them into the camera view.

Oh, by the way, I'm a religious texts historian. Just in case the difference between informed commentary and personal bias isn't clear.

R159, Bart Ehrman is a good writer and not a bad scholar but he still retains an apologetical stance when it comes to numerous dubious claims for historicity. In other words, he can't fully be trusts in his writing.

Pedo thread.

[quote] and every summer got to attend that two week fun filled event known as Vacation Bible School.

Vacation Bible School was really all about the snacks, crafts and hanging out with your friends with an occasional bible song thrown in for good measure. For kids who couldn't afford to go actual *camp*, that was the only source of entertainment in the summer

Ugh. Vacation Bible School. I was 12 or 13 the last time I went. About 2 hours into the first day, I just became overwhelmed with a sense of what BULLSHIT it all was. I walked out, and walked the 3 miles home. My mother was shocked when I got home. I told her I was never going back to VBS or church, end of story.

over the years I have found that the Bible is a book that was written for everyone personally. If you are looking for an answer you can find that answer in the book but you have to look for it. I have always been amazed that when I was younger and had read a passage which meant absolutely nothing to me that in later years it was like a lightbulb going on. I not only realized what it meant but it was an answer that I had been looking for.

r181 I have a story for you. One day I asked our priest why we needed to congregate to have adoration of the Eucharist if we believed that Jesus was always with us and not just there in the Eucharist. He replied that it was because people over the years just expected it and was really nothing. I walked away knowing he was 100% wrong but still didn't have the answer. I soon forgot about it and 3 months later as I was washing dishes and looking out the window and just kind of daydreaming I received/heard this thought, the reason to congregate to worship the Eucharist is because of the unity. That many make us strong. I also realized then how important it was to understand that we are ALL together as one, no matter what our religion or sexual orientation or skin color or nationality, etc. .

[quote]If you are looking for an answer you can find that answer in the book but you have to look for it.

Much like Hints from Heloise.

[quote] A fascinating mish mash of texts (usually dating well after the dates claimed, but sometimes predating and retaining older materials) reworked in the general directions of monotheistic nationhood but retaining evidence of polytheistic underlays, the development of social/cultural codifications and myth-making, and their refinement into various strands of a moral and ethical system. The last, within the Jewish mythos, remains a foundational source of human civilization.

R112 As a "religious texts historian", your analysis of the Jewish Bible comes from your intimate knowledge of the Hebrew language, so that you don't depend on 3rd, 4th and 5th hand commentaries to form your own (6th hand) opinion. No, don't bother to respond. The "Ancient Jews and Greeks and Romans made it pretty clear most people were going to wind up in a grey and dreary land" gave you away as yet another complete idiot who is clueless about the source text. Oh, and deeming Jews a "religion". Another dead giveaway as to your cluelessness. As far as personal bias, take a look at your posts. Not an "informed opinion" in the lot.

Makes for a good monitor stand.

On a gay dating profile some guy had written "The Bible is a well written piece of fiction" so to mess with him I messaged him, "How dare you say the Bible is a well written piece of fiction" I paused a second and then messaged him "It is a poorly written piece of fiction" We both had a good laugh out of it, he said at first he figured he had some Christian nut he was dealing with. I said no just a writing critic.

[quote](R17 with his "generally speaking" does like to hedge/qualify so that his ignorance won't be pointed out to him).

R161, what I said at R17 was this: "The Jewish Testament was (generally speaking) written in Hebrew, and the New Testament was composed in Greek." The reason I qualified it being written in Hebrew is two-fold. First, parts of some books were composed in Aramaic, or Greek (the Book of Daniel, for instance). Second, there is a critical theory called 'Septuagint Primacy,' the upshot of which is that most of the Jewish testament was composed in Greek during the Hellenistic Period, and translated back into Hebrew sometime between the 1st century BCE and 2nd century CE.

While you're evidently deeply invested in the Tanakh being exclusively of Jewish origin (per R161, "For me, the Jewish Bible is the foundation of my identity, my history, culture and very being. It sets out how a Jew must live in the world around him. I am a Jew, descended from Avraham Aveinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, David, Avshalom, Yonatan, Shaul, Shlomo, Yehoshua, Boaz, Ruth, Naomi, Devorah, Batsheva, Ester, etc. etc. in a 5,700 year unbroken line to me. They were indeed a fascinating lot, and I’m proud to have them as my ancestors"),* I do not have any such ideological, religious, or partisan ties to the matter, which frees me to consider and discuss it more dispassionately. (It's also why you won't find me screeching at and insulting those whose opinions differ.) I qualified the statement about the Jewish testament because I would not bet my life that it wasn't composed in Greek.

* I still regard all of this as a troll pose on your part.

Thank you, R191, that's a beautiful story. That's what I believe. I so hate the new translations in the Mass. When we recite the creed, it's now "I believe..." I much prefer saying the Vatican II reformed version "We believe..."because I approach religion as (in the words of the late historian John Bossy) "a community of believers rather than a set of beliefs."

It is the Holy Book. The best self-help and wisdom book there is. I prefer to concentrate on the New Testament.

[quote]This thread is beginning to reek of Matt’s stench.

Can you elaborate, R185? (Re: Matt Anscher, he of the anti-trans troll posts and many sock accounts; what else characterizes him?). What are you seeing here, on this thread?

I ranked the following books in their believability:

1. Valley of the Dolls

2. Peyton Place

3. The Bible

R173 Scholars, Jewish scholars, will observe how the essentials/language in the Jewish scripture (Torah) was developed from the periods of captivity/exile in Egypt, Nineveh, Babylon. Also, many religious practices described in that scripture were common in the region (Phoenicians etc.). What you say is "stolen", merely means that religions and cultures influence each other. I think I've encountered you before on this board, and you won't accept this. Understood.

[quote]as I was washing dishes and looking out the window and just kind of daydreaming I received/heard this thought, the reason to congregate to worship the Eucharist is because of the unity. That many make us strong. I also realized then how important it was to understand that we are ALL together as one, no matter what our religion or sexual orientation or skin color or nationality, etc. .[/quote]

... and another person reads the Bible and finds anti-gay, anti-women, pro-slavery stuff in it..

OP, you bumped a 2016 troll thread, 𝐄𝐥𝐝𝐞𝐫 𝐠𝐚𝐲 𝐨𝐝𝐨𝐮𝐫 (see R10 at link).

Why?

Are you a DeFacto sock?

It never had much meaning for me. The Ten Commandments are basic, and a good reference of how to your life. That's all I got out of the Bible.

...of how to *live your life.

R205/R206, can you list them, and go into some detail about your observance of each of them?

And don't lie, or I'll know.

I see it at propaganda. The message is:

[quote]If you're poor, stay in your place, and you will be rewarded for your suffering. Do NOT revolt against rich people. It's better to be poor.

It's a pretty capitalistic view. No wonder Republicans love it.

R207 Buddhism has a huge collection of scriptures - ancient languages Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, classic Chinese, etc. - the Dalai Lama summarizes: my religion is kindness.

Many religions have as core to morality, a standard of conduct - Treat others as you would want them to treat you. Sometimes in modern times called "The Golden Rule" Summarize how the Ten Commandments is determinative in any way about "observance"? Well, that... treat others as you would want them to treat you.

The Bible's books are not "consistent." They're a mess of contradictions and myths, from claiming the sun revolves around the earth to condemning killing and lying, then rewarding the patriarchs for doing just that and more evil.

Lots of world mythology and national legends contain a mix of historically true events and utter bullshit. Science and archaeology can separate a lot of fact from fiction. Just because Rome was a historically true empire that ruled Judea and Caesar Augustus collected taxes doesn't mean you're not also being manipulated with tall tales.

Make no mistake: the Bible is 50% fraud and a total power grab by greedy, self-aggrandizing men like Moses and Jesus who wanted to rule the world without earning it, so they made up stories and promises that can't be proven.

And if you don't believe me, I spent 40 days and 40 nights on Mount Sinai when nobody else was around and God said everybody has to obey me and all the rules I preach. God even wrote them all down on napkins with his own finger!

Now worship me and give me money and I'll give you everlasting life that nobody will live to tell about because they're dead.

Can't list them all R207...but, Thou shalt not murder...Thou shalt not commit adultery...Thou shalt not steal....Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor...Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house or spouse. Those are the ones I remember...and have followed..except I may be envious of other neighbors, but then I'm not too bad off. I've tried to honor my Father and Mother, but there were conflicts at times. I'm sure not a saint. I know you're trying to snark and trip me up. How are you so saintly, as you want to challenge me? Go ahead...be truthful now.

It's hard to believe that over a thousand years later, people are so dedicated to that book. Especially regarding the birth of Jesus. So Joseph and Mary were spending time together, and suddenly Mary finds herself knocked up. Both of them say, "We swear, we never touched each other!" So how did they explain the pregnancy? Joseph said, "Well, you're never going to believe this, but..." And Maury Povich wasn't around to do a paternity test. And look what happened to that baby because of the lie.

[quote]I know you're trying to snark and trip me up. How are you so saintly, as you want to challenge me? Go ahead...be truthful now.

R211, I'm not a saint; I don't believe in them. What I'm challenging is your unreflective endorsement of all ten of the commandments. You only referenced about half of them, most of which are normative values in our society without any real dependency upon the Decalogue. No one needs it in order to know better than to steal or kill. What I knew would trip you up was the first four commandments, and that's without passing any judgement upon you for not really knowing or observing them. They're not practical or relevant. This isn't the Iron Age.

^^Ok...point taken.

[quote] Make no mistake: the Bible is 50% fraud and a total power grab by greedy, self-aggrandizing men like Moses and Jesus who wanted to rule the world without earning it, so they made up stories and promises that can't be proven.

Moses and Jesus as diabolical geniuses bent on ruling the world. That's pretty ridiculous, even for Datalounge.

"What are we going to do tomorrow, Jesus?" "The same thing we do every day, Moses. Try to take over the world!"

It's a shame Mary didn't miscarry or have an abortion. There would be far less wars, hatred, and suffering.

OP A religion book like many others.

[quote]Are you a DeFacto sock?

LOL - r204, OP is not a defacto sock.

He's the cum drenched gym sock hidden in the back of a horny teenage boy's bedroom dresser drawer that has left both its smell and nacreous layer of cum indelibly encrusted.

Horrific fairytale that spurned a lot of merch.

R197 Work that bitch, mama. 😂

Ms. Dragon came up in this bitch with facts and neutrality like -

R200 He refers to non-Jewish people as “the goyim,” with utter contempt and dare I say racism. He always refers to Christians as “Xtians.” Additionally, he defends Woody Allen with tooth and nail and calls people who side with Mia and Dylan Farrow “pedo enablers.” Also, he absolutely loathes Jessica Lange.

So, R220/R221, he's the guy who keeps trolling that no one can understand or comment on Jewish scriptures but him?

R222 I believe so.

Many thanks, R223. ;)

BTW, R220, that's a beautiful compliment. [blushes]

OMG, I just got it, You are Seventh-day Day Adventist aren't you OP?

[quote] looking out the window and just kind of daydreaming I received/heard this thought, the reason to congregate to worship the Eucharist is because of the unity. That many make us strong.

Hahahahhaahaha oh Gods, that is pathetic.

We Pagans don’t congregate, we don’t have churches, we don’t have dogma or a holy book, and we sure as shit don’t gather ‘worship’ and sing songs of praise in our best clothes.

Know why? We don’t need to.

We practise as we see fit, and we can do that on our own because we’re independent souls. No masters. We esteem and revere the Gods as forebears and legendary heroes, but not as cosmic omnipotent overlords we cringe from. We know each other on sight, by instinct—by scent, even. We’re a dangerous pack, united in spirit by a force that doesn’t demand our supplication, our conformity, or our good behaviour.

Certain Abrahamic groups want to talk big about persecution, theft and oppression. Sand-cultist creeps—Xtians, Catholics, Jews, Muslims—have combined efforts and massive resources to use against us, over at least two millennia; weaponising their hegemony to try and kill us all off, stamp out our existence and our custom, or rewrite history to make us look malevolent and inhuman while at the same time covertly coopting our animist Gods and practises. That’s a lot of work, and yet you haven’t succeeded in exterminating us yet. You won’t.

And who knows? One day, carefully picking our moment according to your vulnerability, we may emerge out of nowhere from all corners, and make a pretty show of killing off YOUR culture.

Link shows pagans carefully "not congregating"

Link show pagans carefully avoiding any worship ceremony (like worshipping the Sun)

R228...uh huh. Suuuure. I mean, that’s the Hollywood stereotype.

If that’s how truly you think all Pagans—or even the majority of Pagans—perform religion, then I don’t know what to tell you, and have to assume you don’t know any IRL.

Let me guess, you also think all Wiccans look and act like practise like Willow from BUFFY?

Link shows Icelandic pagans carefully not noticing young woman reading from their sacred book

R230 You mean a Lithuanian pagan celebration is "Hollywood" - yeah, Hollwood, West Hollywood, Vilnius - all close to each other.

R231 you...do realise there are probably close to a thousand different pantheons and branches of Paganism, right?

One tiny group of Icelandic Ásatrú devotees may indeed congregate or read from a sacred texts (there is not a single Holy Book in Ásatrú, btw), but that doesn’t mean every other Pagan branch does. False equivalence.

For just one example, my own Brythonic practise does not involve assembly, hymnal, or adherence to any text, let alone dancing in rings, LARPing, fairy crowns, or any other MIDSOMMAR bullshit for that matter.

You love throwing your Christian weight around, condescending and making mock of things you don’t care to understand or acknowledge, We get it, we heard you. Why don’t you stick up a crucifix up your ass?

Hon, I am a Buddhist/Taoist Episcopalian. And let's be clear, it was YOU who were throwing essentialist BS against the wall of this thread, assuming it would stick. YOU asserted all pagans were One Thing, just as you asserted all those with any Abrahamic taint were One Thing.

😜 R233 We don't need to know what your daddy did to your momma last night

R227 & R233 It’s pretty rich of you to lump all of the Abrahamic religions together and call them “sand-cultist creeps” while defending the name, beliefs, and “practise,” whatever it may entail, for your own religion. Maybe we should call your kind the dirtbag cultist cunts. (You do worship the earth, no?)

As for me, I’m like R234 and not exclusively tied to any one religion, but have found truth, beauty, and insight in all of them, especially their corresponding mystical teachings.

*of your own religion

There is no doubt that religious Jews revere the Torah and the rest of the Scriptures. They have called themselves People of the Book for at least a thousand years. עם הספר It gives them a history and traditions that have kept them as one people through a diaspora that has lasted for 2000 years. That's not the question. But there's no evidence that A. the Bible has remained the same for all of that time, or B. that it is historically true or accurate. The Dead Sea Scrolls give evidence of significant changes in Biblical passages, even while there are also a few reassuring commonalities. The Torah is traditionally hand-written, but the oldest existing complete Torah dates only to 800 years ago. (1200 AD). Every time that something is transcribed, there is the possibility of error creeping in. So I'd say that A is very unlikely to be true. In regard to B, we know that the archaeological record doesn't support many of the most important events of the Bible. Nothing in Egypt to support the idea of the Exodus of vast numbers of slaves or the 10 plagues. (The Egyptians were meticulous chroniclers of daily life in a climate which has preserved tens of thousands of papyrus documents and stone records). There has been very little discovered in Israel to support the idea that King David and Solomon ever ruled anything beyond the traditional homeland of the Jews, Judea. Nothing in Sinai to support the idea that 1 million people crisscrossed that land for 40 years - no wagon ruts, no broken crockery, nothing. We also know that the Bible wasn't even written down until sometime around 500 BC. Before that, it was only oral stories, told to and memorized from one generation to the next. This is also the way that Homer was also transmitted in ancient Greece. We all know that oral histories are notoriously inaccurate.

Anyone who bets the bank on his unbroken lineage going back over 5000 years by referring to Biblical passages is going to go broke. There's not enough "there there" .

R234 that different devotees of different original polytheistic faiths share a cosmological view does not imply they abide by a set behaviour or core ethos. Again with the false equivalence. How much do you & I have in common, a Daoist (doesn’t that conflict with a Buddhist path?) and a Brython? Both Pagans, but clearly we have no common ground whatsoever (and that is ok).

On the other hand, Abrahamics do have a lot more in common in this respect and can be more easily treated as one, because (tw for spicy take) THEY SHARE THE EXACT SAME FOUNDATION RELIGION. They won’t admit it, but they do. Same book (in different translations), same One God, same core tenets, same prophets, all coming from the same small part of the world and the same ancestors. Next.

R235 my parents are atheists. I just texted my Mom to ask what she thinks of Bible study, and she told me this great story that she once told a Nun in her Catholic school that she wasn’t going to Mass anymore because if God is everywhere then he should be with her everywhere including up in the club (she got caned). So.

R236 no, I don’t worship the Earth and none of the Pagans I know do either, for fucksake. Where are you all getting this wrong information, ‘70s horror movies?

Last I checked, the most recent acts of global atrocity and destruction were wreaked by Abrahamics, not Pagans. Last horrific thing we did must have been long before Christ (and it probably involved throwing Christians to lions, oop....)

R239 Seems like you're arguing to win points, not to achieve clarity. Of course pagans worship the earth (in broad definitions of worship) pre-Christian Celtic cults, animism all over the world. Check out the ayahuasca thread on DL fer chrissakes. There is nothing "wrong" with worshipping the earth - it's what's to be recommended about many kinds of belief systems and practices that those in the west call "pagan"

Taoism and Ch'an Buddhism (which becomes Zen) are contradictory? Nah.

R239 From what I’ve just read, Brythonic pagans worship several deities rather than one ultimate divine force. ::slow clap:: So much more evolved than the “sand-cultist creeps.”

Do you have a practise for each deity?

R240 look, for all my spitting venom I actually like you, and think you have interesting things to say, and I’d love to hear more about your syncretic practise if you feel like sharing (though you probably don’t now). Sorry for getting agitated, hope I didn’t offend. That said I do detect an overtone of superiority in your tone, but maybe that’s just a ‘lost in translation/text isn’t speech’ thing?

FWIW at no point did I say or even imply anything was wrong with Earth worship, or that most animists don’t do it. I just said that I don’t make a major point of it in my own practise, and my circle don’t. FYI, certain ancient Middle Eastern peoples venerated the luminaries (sun moon and stars) or the planets rather than the Earth. There are also account of tribes who venerated megaliths. Also, not all of us are Joe Rogan types obsessed with hallucinogenics and talking about Space Jesus In The Singularity or whatever the fuck (again, I’m NOT saying there’s anything wrong with that, whatever floats your boat). I don’t think a person is ‘enlightened’ or ‘smarter’ than me because they took ayahuasca once—every other douchelord fake-millionaire on YouTube ads has the same origin story, just saying...

R241 yes, there are unique approaches to each deity, broadly speaking. You approach a Brythonic God or ancestor (any of your choosing) respectfully but not cravenly, and according to how you instinctually feel they want you to. It involves a lot of spontaneous reception, watching for signs in your surroundings, taking notice of what is running through your mind and body energetically. It’s not just lighting a candle and kneeling all the time (or ever, tbh). For one of the Gods I venerate, I always feel I have to be out in the Sunshine and singing, because he stirs that impulse in me, and he has an aspect over the day and over song.

There’s no guarantee that a God or Goddess/ancestor/genius locii will even heed you or accept your petition, and ideally you divine for reception first as each have specific tabu. Offerings can be useful, as can scrying and using divination instruments, but those aren’t the only methods.

So now you’ve got me curious. What exactly counts as ‘evolved’ religious practise to you—listening to a preacher read from a storybook? Walking around an old stone building? Asking an Allfather to forgive whatever ‘heretic’ thing you did, come and save you? Believing that only one deity or divinity could possibly exist, and that that One made everything? That doesn’t sound terribly enlightened to me; in fact, it sounds like something a frightened kid with daddy issues would say...

Understand—I only attack these Abrahamic faiths because I feel they have hurt humankind and do not accept responsibility for this. They have also extincted animistic ways of living and heritage for their own gains, and have not atoned. What I’m saying comes from grief, frustration and ancestral anger; it’s not personally directed at specific Christian/Jewish/Muslim people as individuals.

R242 Now that you’ve explained your frustration and have exhibited a degree of humility, I can say I get where you’re coming from.

[quote] What exactly counts as ‘evolved’ [...] practise to you?

Exhibiting some degree of love, however tiny and feeble it may be, in every situation and circumstance, however antithetical to “the norm” that may be.

Prayer and meditation, not to change anything as much as to commune with life and the eternal light and change myself when the need arises.

Sorry for being a bitch with the “dirtbag cultist cunt” dig.

Well this took a pagan turn.

Ah well, the gods pop up whenever invited, I guess.

Anyway, I'm still fascinated by the Bible and who wrote the damn thing. Off to read Misquoting Jesus.

For those who appreciate the four gospels and haven’t done so already, you must read the Gospel of Thomas, which sort of highlights what may have been surreptitiously edited out.

It's allegory.

[quote]Is it just a work of fiction?

Yes. Like R65 said, it is one of the greatest works of fiction ever written.

[quote]It's allegory.

Allegory for what, R246?

R245 meet R143

The problem with some of these threads - very long and attract folks who are eager to share their wit and wisdom (mirror securely put before my own face)

R242 Well, the board of pointless bitchery is likely the place for a serious interchange. And any quick summary will just sound rootless and acquisitive. Have done zazen (and found my own western impatience like a monster in my flesh, not just monkeying around with my mind. Using Taoism as a meditation lectio divina (the tao de ching more than Chuang Tsu) the flow, the thousand things from One, the emptiness defining utility, and the psychic/physical/spiritual alchemy - as a foundation of a range of yoga - the breath, single-focus meditation - preparing for dzoghen "direct path" meditation - though I also prepare with Christian samatha-like practice - the Jesus Prayer repeated with a mala, and Centering Prayer - more Cynthia Bourgeault than Thomas Keating. It's a mélange. I am a dilettante, but harmless. A commonality of what draws me to it and works for me if a kenosis - which I think is what Jesus was trying to share with us. My journey, but not trying to suggest anyone replicate it.

If you sense some kind superiority, I apologize. I'm a little old school with vocab and syntax and position myself as representing ideas on their best terms - which is kind of pontificating I guess, by definition. What others would call my ego heats up and blows away... a life of it's own that's not particularly interesting anymore

Thanks for pointing out that post!

R249 I love Cynthia Bourgeault, and James Finely, too.

*Finley

The Bible is pro slavery, violence, rape and murder... no wonder “Christians” love it.