Watching Mary Tyler Moore

MTM was something new, and creators, network and advertisers weren't sure about how an "older" career woman would be received.

MTM wasn't some fresh faced girl out of college just looking to kill time until she met Mr. Right, married and retired from the world. Rather Mary Tyler Moore was the "new" breed of women coming around in 1970's. They wanted a career, work etc... and that came first. If they met Mr. Right, so be it, but husband hunting wasn't their 24/7 occupation.

The 1970's also was when more and more women began entering formerly male only spheres of employment. Mary Tyler Moore morphs from being rather shy and insecure when starting in that newsroom to a very capable, talented writer able to hold her own with the guys including gruff "Mr. Grant".

Yes, while it was common for male leads in television sitcoms or dramas to have a new girlfriend every week (Mannix comes to mind), MTM had to walk a very fine line. Show was careful to show Mary Tyler Moore as a "nice girl" who went on dates, and nothing else. IIRC MTM not having a steady boyfriend allowed a tighter focus on the woman, her life and career. If a man is introduced sooner or later things would get around to sleeping together (or not), situations involving the couple, and of course the inevitable "when are we going to get married".

Mary Tyler Moore show was meant to be different than that other single woman living alone in a big city (Marlo Thomas in "That Girl"). There wasn't a "Donald", nor parents constantly dropping in (and offering financial assistance....)

MTM truly was one of if not the first modern women on television.

[quote] Rather Mary Tyler Moore was the "new" breed of women coming around in 1970's. They wanted a career, work etc... and that came first. If they met Mr. Right, so be it, but husband hunting wasn't their 24/7 occupation.

Unfortunately, the Rhoda character seemed to be there to serve that role. She's pretty but constantly puts herself down, and her entire life's mission is to land an ambitious, affluent husband. I love Harper's performance of Rhoda, but the way she was written is disappointing. I just watched an episode at the end of season one or beginning of season two in which she dates a wonderful, sweet, smart guy and then is devastated when she learns he quit his corporate VP job to do something he always wanted to do (forest ranger). Kind of a gross depiction out of keeping with the premise of the show overall.

[quote] IIRC MTM not having a steady boyfriend allowed a tighter focus on the woman, her life and career. If a man is introduced sooner or later things would get around to sleeping together (or not), situations involving the couple, and of course the inevitable "when are we going to get married".

I don't think dealing with implications of sex was probably a major deterrent. I also just watched an early episode in which Phyllis dreads telling her daughter about sex, and so she pawns off the job onto Mary, of course. There was no talking around "S-E-X." I was surprised that they plainly said "sex" to mean sex. Bess, the daughter, tells Mary that she already learned about it from her friends but what she wants to know about is love. She says she is afraid to love a boy she likes because (this part is implied) she would have to have sex with him because sex and love go together. And Mary told her that any woman can love someone without having sex with them--OR the opposite. I thought that was pretty bold.

I read that by the time the series ended, it had had 75 writers and 25 of them were women, which set a new record in TV by far.

The writing for Rhoda gets dramatically better in season 3. Less of the insecurity. More acknowledging the character/actress strengths already mentioned. Georgette & Phyllis get the most consistent writing. I’m watching it on Hulu as well. Almost done. Will miss it.

MTM had a fine line to walk. On the one hand, she was very popular on the Dick van Dyke show. So she already started with a built in audience. However, she had a good girl image that she, in part, had to maintain.

TV and culture were moving very rapidly. In 1969, both The Brady Bunch and Love American Style debuted. Two comedies that were polar opposites. The MTM Show fit comfortably between those two. By 1976, Three’s Company debuted and had no problems discussing sex, living together outside of marriage and homosexuality.

A really good show for the time, but the relationships haven't aged well.

"Oh, Mr. Grant!!"

If that doesn't sound dated.

I am a woman and always found myself in the Mary Richards role in my office - before there was such a huge spotlight on sexual harassment - the “MR” for a boss like Mr Grant sort of kept the possibility of romance at bay - Being a younger woman in an office the buffer zone was appreciated. later she was welcome to call him Lou - she just couldn’t spit it out. the dated MR that makes me nuts is Lucy and MR Mooney. .... I love the Mary Tyler Moore Show!!!

I always liked the spin offs more. One evening, a friend asked what I was up to. I said I was having dinner, and then going straight for Lou Grant. Ever since, my friend gets a big laugh out of me “going straight for Lou Grant.” Ha.

[quote] Valerie Harper is extremely pretty and also the funniest person on the show. It really takes suspension of disbelief to pretend she is the dowdy, desperate loser compared with Mary.

I always thought Rhoda was better-looking, prettier, more stylish, etc., than Mary.

"I'll assume that they did this as an act of feminism to show that a woman's life doesn't have to center around a guy."

The show was about Mary, her friends, her work, not her quest to get married. That was a new concept, but even in the 1970s, most women's lives did not center around men or finding unless it was for financial support.

"but the men's hair!"

That was the 1970s. What were they supposed to have, crew cuts?

I didn't expect the sad turn of events in the last season. One son dead and the other estranged, and separated from her husband. Sad.

R5, duh, "Oh Mr Grant" is dated., so? You have to put TV and movies into context. I don't know why people cannot appreciate this concept. I grew up on Lucy and Gale Storm reruns yet was able to understand why it wasn't 1964 on those shows. The other way around - I noticed immediately in 1970 that Mary Tyler Moore has a touch tone (push button) phone at home, very rare at the time.

I never get tired of threads celebrating this show; admittedly, I’ve created a few of my own. I discovered this show and Rhoda as a gayling (14 yo) in the mid-90s while watching Nick at Nite. I have loved both shows ever and rewatch them every one to two years. Also, I totally get what you mean when you say “...it's really lovely. It gives me the warm fuzzies.” Though this show could be bitingly and riotously funny, it’s focus was on the humanity of its characters and the universality of myriad feelings and idiosyncrasies which is why it endures.

OP "Betty White hasn't shown up yet but I am looking forward to her!"

You're in for a treat. I've written this on the many DL tv threads over the years. Betty White's Sue Ann Nivens is my choice for possibly the Best Sitcom supporting character of all time. Certainly greater than The Golden Girls' Rose or any other character she created, (at least for me). Part of it was White's tv career had stalled for years, and she had gotten known primarily for talk show and game show appearances, (especially on her husband, Allen Ludden's Password). Casting her as the Happy Homemaker initially seemed typecast, boring and too obvious, but when it was eventually revealed that she was really the oversexed Happy Homewrecker.... well.... it was brilliant. Genius. Innovative, (for that time period), and soon to become iconic!

OP - wait 'til Sue Ann meets Phyllis Lindstrom. :):):)

“[Rhoda is] pretty but constantly puts herself down...”

Rhoda had a few of the show’s most poignant moments. “Rhoda The Beautiful” made me and can still make me cry.

I've said this before in past MTM threads, but the styles and fashions really took a dive around the 4th or 5th season. Mary's cute flip, the the ladies' minis and maxis and silk shirts, the guys' pomaded hair gave way to clashing loud patterns and polyester pantsuits, and ugly and unruly hairstyles. I also noticed this watching reruns of Emergency! on COZI TV. The handsome, cleancut looks of Gage and DeSoto and Company gave way to really bad, unkemp hair towards the mid-70s.

Mary Richards was just like so many other single women (and some men) of 1970's, out there on their own trying to make things work.

There's a great scene in opening montage (one of them anyway), showing MTM at supermarket looking vaguely incredulous at a packet of meat she chucks into shopping cart. That was everyone back then who lived through "stag flation" of 1970's.

MTM IMHO also resonated with gays then and still now because they saw themselves in same light; packed up and moved to a new large city, finding an apartment, launching a career, getting on with both their professional and personal lives. Like women gays were another minority that weren't always welcomed at every office/company, but some who were "out" (or never in), or whatever stood their ground and tried to make things work.

Thing about Mary Richards is as show went on she grew more confident in both her professional and personal life. The character wasn't drawn as so many female roles in past, totally one dimensional. Mary faced same pressures and dilemmas both personally and professionally as any other young adult atm. But she grew and learned from each then moved on...

[quote]The other way around - I noticed immediately in 1970 that Mary Tyler Moore has a touch tone (push button) phone at home, very rare at the time.

How could she dial with a pencil?

Buck would have NEVER sat at home and watched an old sitcom on TV.

MTM really comes together in Season 2. It suffers a wee bit after both Rhoda and Phyllis both leave (Georgette is lovely as an amuse bouche but not as the entire entree).

I think as much as I loved all of MTM it could have ended a season earlier and been even tighter, but overall, the quality was so consistent.

So, who here watched MTM as a kid and thought, "Gee, I want to grow up someday and be just like Murray"?

Not really an enviable stereotype, was he.

R20 I wanted to be Mary.

One season the producers were going to give Mary a steady boyfriend, or at least a multi episode arc. I read it in either TV Guide or Parade. They cast Ted Bessel from That Girl and he was just awful. He just didn’t work with the other characters and he was kind of obnoxious.

They were lucky with the character of Sue Ann Niven. After Phyllis and Rhoda left, Georgette couldn’t be the only other woman.

I was a huge fan - I think I've patterned my life on the Mary Richards character - but I think now that the early seasons haven't aged well. With rare exceptions, I think the best episodes are from the post-Rhoda era.

A favorite MTM story concerns her last husband, Robert Levine, at 30, a 15 years her junior cardiologist who was treating her mother:

"After I’d seen her mom the second time, I said to Mary, 'If there's an emergency, just get in touch with me. And Mary said, 'Does acute loneliness count?' And I said, 'Yes.'"

I think I’m watching me some MTM and Rho tonight. Thanks, op!

56 year-old here who watched the series off and on when it originally aired, and of course in reruns. When I revisited about 18 years ago when I bought the dvds, I was surprised how hit and miss the first season was. Too much of that season focused on Mary's dating life and not enough of the newsroom. But overall it is one of the all time great shows. The documentary that accompanies the first season dvd set is fantastic.

I hate spunk!

It's sad to watch MTM's appearance nosedive as the series goes on and her offscreen alcoholism worsens.

By season 4, she had bags under her eyes that makeup couldn't hide.

In the sixth season, people wrote in complaining about how bad Mary looked.

[quote]I discovered this show and Rhoda as a gayling (14 yo) in the mid-90s while watching Nick at Nite.

90s Nick at Nite is how I discovered the Dick Van Dyke Show.

Wow, 30 posts and no mention of the horribly lame and stupid Chuckles the Clown episode, which is loved by straight guys the world over. That is unless I missed it...

When they announced that Betty White was joining the cast, I cringed. In the early 1970s and before, Betty was known for game shows and hawking household products in commercials. Shit, I thought, that goody-two-shoes bore on my favorite show? Joke was on me with Sue Ann Nivens.

"I always thought Rhoda was better-looking, prettier, more stylish, etc., than Mary."

Me too. The issue is attitude, not looks.

R14, one of MTMs best moments is at the door when Rhoda comes back to tell her what really happened. One of the truest tv girlfriend moments I’ve ever seen. Also great for the gf moments, The Lars Affair. Phyllis and the apple pie, beyond brilliant.

OP here...surprised to find this in the active threads since my thread watchlist doesn't work at all anymore. 😭😭😭😭

I skipped ahead to season four to see Betty. Her first appearance is her affair with Phyllis's husband. Cloris Leachman was great in that episode, and Betty's character wasn't really much to speak of except in some passive-aggressive nuances that were amusing. But in the end, Mary was the one who got rid of Sue Ann by threatening her, and boy was that satisfying after seeing Mary get pushed around for so long. After that, Mary dated a 25 year old and had to deal with her aging issues. I didn't expect this kind of organic character growth after 24 episodes of the first season.

I don't think the clothing and hairstyles, the ugly patterns or the "Mr. Grant!" matter at all because the writing and performances are so strong. I'm impressed by how naturalistic the conversational dynamics are, and no one except Ted is really a sitcom type exactly. They're almost all very human.

My grandmother told me when I was young that I would have to grow up to be a writer because there was no good writing on TV after The Golden Girls. (She boycotted NBC when they canceled it but later loved The West Wing, another notable series I've never watched.)

R32 Do you mean the way Phyllis reacted to eating it? I don't exactly know why, but her performance of that seemed ingenius to me.

I haven't reached the Sue Ann seasons yet, but I found this clip on YT which is just all-time comedy gold.

Try this one - the Betty White I knew before she appeared on MTM

Season one is kind of boring. It's mostly cute rather than laugh out loud funny.

I always thought Murray was sexy. I assume if the show had been made in the '90s, Murray would've been gay.

R37, if you consider Ida Morgenstern "boring," you're beyond help.

Phyllis eating her own pie in that episode is a master class in comedy. The way it tastes to her and the way she pushes it away is too much. Valerie Harper always looks like she is biting her cheek not to laugh out loud at her.

Ever notice how Rhoda starts the next line too soon and has to stop and re-start because the laugh is too long?

R28 MTM later-seasons weathered look was sexy and she never lost her body, which was three-fourths pure tit.

Never "lost" her body, R41? She gained weight and had implants and looked 1000% better in season six than season three. Tits were 34-AA in the first season, 34-C after surgery. Wigs in most seasons.

R42 Being a dancer, she always had a great physique.

Also, Phyllis’”Ten Cents a Dance” performance still makes me laugh 😂

Valerie Harper was overweight in the first season or so. She then lost the weight so they compensated by dressing her funny with scarfs on her head and stuff.

Then they eventually let her be pretty. There is a great episode where she is in a beauty pageant and finally accepts her looks. Even Phyllis praises her on how good she looks..

From then on they let her be attractive and cut down on the self put down jokes.

But Rhoda's New York cynicism and irony remained the same, which is why she was funny.

I wasn’t expecting anyone, but let me go in the kitchen and see if I can throw something together.

Poor Chuckles

I thought the first four seasons were the best. Those seasons were just very charming, and there's a sweetness to Mary that seems lost those last three seasons. Also Mary/Rhoda/Phyllis were lightning in a bottle. When the show shifted to an emphasis on the newsroom in season 5, it just wasn't the same, and it became more sitcommy and less real.

All of the seasons are perfect in their own way, providing varied shades and flavors.

I am falling in love with Ms. Leachman's talents.

R48, the first four seasons of any long series are the best.

"Poor Chuckles"

Fans of the shitty chuckles bites the dust episode can bite me.

Fun fact: Angus Duncan, who played Mary's ex Bill in the pilot, had been married to DL fave Beverlee McKinsey in the 1960s.

Duncan was also high on the list to play Ted Baxter, but then Ted Knight walked in and blew away the competition. Jack De Mave and Monte Markham were also on the short list. They both wound up guest starring on the show in season 1, so I guess that was some sort of consolation prize.

[quote]MTM wasn't some fresh faced girl out of college just looking to kill time until she met Mr. Right, married and retired from the world. Rather Mary Tyler Moore was the "new" breed of women coming around in 1970's. They wanted a career, work etc... and that came first. If they met Mr. Right, so be it, but husband hunting wasn't their 24/7 occupation.

Ann Sothern in "Private Secretary" played a single career woman. The character was also a WWII vet.

The year? 1953.

My favorite Sue Ann episode is the one where her younger sister visits. The scene in Sue Ann's bedroom is a classic. Starts at 14:51.

Later in the run "Private Secretary" changed its name to "The Ann Sothern Show".

This is an episode with Lucille Ball. Skip to the exchange at 2:18 . Ann (fem and butch at the same time) is sitting in her own office, isn't interested in marriage and describes her boss (also single) as a business partner.

Marlo and Mary did not do it first.

In later seasons, Mary has an undertone that's cold and jaded. I can see why Redford cast(ed?) her as an unfeeling mother in "Ordinary People." He must have seen that other side to Mary.

I, also, loved Phyllis's Ten Cents A Dance.

You’re so cute, OP!

Count me in another poster who doesn't get the hype about chuckles bites the dust. It's a decent episode but not one of the more memorable ones IMO.

R53 Ditto Our Miss Brooks, with Eve Arden, debuting 1952 on TV. And while MTM's way of saying "Mr. Grant" always told you it was Mr. Grant in charge, when Eve Arden referred to "Mr. Conklin" there wasn't a hint of that subservience in her voice. Connie Brooks ruled.

I have always said “Put on a Happy Face” is the best episode. It’s the one where Mary has her worst week ever. MTM got to pull out her comedy chops in that one. I believe it was her favorite episode.

R59 Agreed. Eve and Ann both had dicks and a set of balls compared to Mary and "That Girl".

Death of Chuckles episode was *not* funny. It aired in the 6th season out of 7 seasons. I am guessing it was a lifetime achievement type of award.

The chuckles episode was the one noticed by straight guys who were repelled by all the earlier Mary-Rhoda-Phyllis crap. When straight guys roar, it becomes how everyone is supposed to see/like everything. In this case, one of the marginally fully episodes of a classic sitcom.

"In later seasons, Mary has an undertone that's cold and jaded"

That's also called late season doldrums. Mary was a limited actress, another factor.

Agreed, R14, it’s such a real and touching moment when Rhoda tells Mary the audience was applauding for her.

Why wasn't Chuckles' daughter at his funeral?

R61 Bitch, Eve and Ann can take turns sucking on Mare and Rho’s cunts.

When Mary has her terrible week and in the end gets an award and has to walk on stage with wet hair and the ugly borrowed dress is historical

OP: The Mary Tyler Moore Show is the best television show ever! So glad you're enjoying it. So well written, produced and acted. Best ensemble cast ever. They are all so good. I love Rhoda...but I also hope you are enjoying Phyllis. She's a friggin hoot and outstanding on the show. Betty White was so damn funny on MTM; love her. But I could never warm up to Betty on the Golden Girls, which was good, but paled in comparison to the superb MTM Show. And of course Mary herself. She was simply the best there ever was...and the show was even better than I Love Lucy, which is often considered the best with some people. I liked it but not as much as MTM.

Veal Prince Orloff.

Mary, dinner is served!

Mr. Grant! You took half! You will have to put some back!

My mother is starting to have some “brain issues” around time and money (ugh - it’s a nightmare) anyway - last week I was going through bills with her and she just wasn’t tracking what I was saying. I finally wrote down a number on paper and said “THIS is Veal Prince Orloff - you have spent too much - there isn’t enough - we have to put some back!” Do you know she immediately clicked in and understood what I had been trying to explain. Isn’t it funny how that old episode stuck so vividly in her mind when other things have gone? ...... I love it when Phyliss says what Lars once told her, “Phyllis, Yerba derda derda derda ,,,,”

I craved Lou Grant's spunk.

r22 Ted Bessell's character was awful and the plots so wrong. Mary catches him cheating on her with Beth Howland. He tells her he can't help it that it is a handicap you wouldn't hate him if he had a limp or was blind or had one arm. (or something like that.)

Mary storms out and he asks where she's going, she says to look for a blind, one armed man with a limp. Should have been end of the character. But Mary forgives him and returns. Awful plot. They must have realized it because I think he's in one more episode and then they never mention him again.

All of Mary's dates and boyfriends were horrible, wooden (and not in a good way), Ken-doll types. Ugh! It was probably better that way b/c Mary was more interesting as a single woman than a woman in a serious relationship.

She should have dated the shy irs auditor from the first season. He was sweet.

Rhoda should have married Jonah the palentologist who was so excited about having Chinese food for the first time.

Lou and the lounge singer made a good couple. She was in like 2 or 3 episodes and then in the last season returned with a different actress playing her which was sort of ineffective.

The only season I thought MTM looked bad was when she had that weird bowl kind of hair cut - i think it was the next to last season (whichever one the Chuckles episode is on). She also looked like she had put on some weight that season but then lost it by the final season. I never noticed that she had breast implants until later in the 80s but I don’t know. I honestly didn’t think movie and TV stars started getting implants until the 80s - I know implants existed in the 70s but just really in the starting stages in places like Texas, etc (I watched that HBO movie with David Schwimmer way back).

But I digress.

I loved this show. My mom and aunt (living the MTM life) used to go out on Saturday nights and my sisters and cousin and I would watch it together.

The opening was a constant reference for us early Gen Xers; I often did a quick spin around a plaza and threw up an imaginary hat.

Jeesh! Enough with the "Chuckles Bites The Dust" hate!

I'm NOT straight and it's still a funny episode and MTM was terrific.

The problem is, when things get hyper praised, there's always backlash.

That, and some people just have a stick up their ass.

I swear I have Carton Your Door Man in my building. I live in a high-rise and they always call on the phone before letting someone up. One of the guards loves to chat when he calls and i can never get off the phone with him. He will make remarks about my guests which are sometimes very funny and accurate.

Mary!

Many people didnt know that she and her husbanded started an independent production company before the show first aired on TV. Half studio owners who produced things like Three's Company. That's how she got so wealthy. That's also how Oprah got rich as well.

r37 Murray was originally kinda/sorta supposed to be gay. I think the character was loosely based on a gay guy that one of the writer/creators had worked with in an actual news room and Murray was going to someone along the lines of Charles Nelson Riley but The Powers That Be weren't keen on that idea and nixed it.

And, while I adore The Golden Girls, Rose is by far my least favorite GG and Betty White's greatest achievements as a comedic actress would be her Sue Anne Nivens on MTM and her nasty sister Ellen from Mama's Family with annoying Rose as a distant third.

(And, yeah, I get why Rose is a necessary ingredient in the Golden Girl 'stew' but the character herself is meh. Rose has some good moments on the show, usually when she's being bitchy, but does Rose ever really have a truly great episode of her own?)

[quote]The show was about Mary, her friends, her work, not her quest to get married.

Are people not remembering that Mary skipped out on her wedding at the top of the series? That’s what brought her to Minneapolis.

She dodged a bullet.

I assume that, while interested in companionship, she wasn’t itching to attempt tying the knot again so soon.

Just ask Nanette Fabray.

I would say that Chuckles is great on the first viewing. But once you know how it's going to unfold, what the final "punchline" is, the experience of watching it provides less laughs.

Rhoda was always written as a dateless wonder, but Valerie Harper was a very attractive woman. No way would a woman who looked like her have been ignored by men.

The first season when the bulk of the dateless jokes happen she was quite heavy. They also didn't give her flattering clothes or hair. As said above the character evolved out of that r85.

An aside. I saw Valerie Harper as Tallulah Bankhead in the Broadway production of Looped for which she was nominated for a Tony. She was tremendous and received a standing ovation. Basically a 2 character play it was hysterically funny and the last scene has Valerie playing Tallulah doing Blanche DuBois. Incredible.

R83 ad the OP of the Nanette/monkey thread.....I love you!

Ann Sothern had a roommate. She and "Our Miss Brooks" were in traditional female occupations.

Mary did occasionally spend the night with one of her dates--that was made obvious during teh arc that included Bill Quinn and Nannette Fabray as her parents.

[quote]Half studio owners who produced things like Three's Company.

No, dear.

r89 "Don't forget to take your pill"

"I won't" -- Mary and her dad

Mary wrote a sexual IQ test. (She got a 90 on her own test because she wears flannel pajamas.) They didn't shy away from sex at all; they just kept it tastefully offscreen, but there was a lot of implied sex.

Also, Ted: Guess what I did this weekend. Here's a hint: It was SIN-sational. SIN-sational, get it? I got consummated!!

Re Valerie Harper's acting...yes! I would love to have seen her in a stage play. I've been marveling at the naturalistic movements and interactions of the actors in this show, including Mary, Cloris, Ed and Gavin, and there's something both naturalistic and theatrical about Valerie's performance. She has major gravitas and seems like such a pro. What did she act in before MTM? She seems seasoned beyond her years.

What did Mary Tyler Moore act in before the "MTM show?

You're kidding right?

R93 I asked what Valerie Harper acted in prior to the Moore show.

Wait. I just realized something...Bethenny Frankel is real-life Rhoda!

You may not like the characters of Ted Baxter but EVERY male news broadcaster in a television series ever since has been written in imitation or response to that character.

Think with Rhoda MTM show kept picking up jokes and so forth based upon stereotypes of Jewish women including mothers.

When Mr. and Mrs. Morgenstern visit Minneapolis to see their daughter Ida does a trip on Mary by associating kindness with guilt.

Much as loved Rhoda on MTM show, was glad when she went back to NYC and got her own. Rhoda just seemed to fit better in NYC than Minneapolis IMHO

Confirmed!

R92, Bway chorus in Wildcat & Lil Abner. Other live companies, 2nd City and Story Theatre. Minor tv credits b4 MTM.

R97 Nancy Walker was a force, too. She was perfectly cast as Rhoda's mother energy-wise.

I just noticed in that clip that although she is short and has a very different voice, her mannerisms and facial expressions and line delivery are a hell of a lot like Bea Arthur's.

Georgette was unbearable, especially when they increased the character's screen time after Rhoda and Phyllis left.

If I remember correctly it was Phyllis who got Mary her apartment in the first episode, right? And they were friends or at least good acquaintances from way back. Help me remember, how did Rhoda immediately become Mary's best friend (even though she was trying to steal the apartment from her) and Phyllis was barely part of her life in the first season?

Phyllis was a neighbor who showed Mary the apartment, not an old friend. Later it was revealed that she was actually the landlord.

Rhoda hated Mary because she had been promised the apartment that Mary got. But soon realized that was not Mary's fault.

R100 Nancy Walker was AMAZING. Every look and gesture of hers brimmed with comedic gold. She’s a big reason why I love the series Rhoda. Julie Kavner, too.

MARY!

Mary and Phyllis were friends from college or something. That’s why Mary ended up in that apartment. At this point we don’t know Phyllis is the manager. That was revealed in either season two or three, I can’t remember. Rhoda wanted the apartment, but Phyllis already got it for Mary. And the friendship between Mary and Rhoda begin at he very end of the first episode . By episode two they appear to be besties.

From wikipedia on Mary Richards :

[quote]Mary Richards, born in Roseburg, Minnesota in April 1939, is the only child of Walter and Dottie Richards. Prior to relocating to Minneapolis, she was engaged to a medical student named Bill whom she left after realizing that he would probably never want to get married. After arriving in Minneapolis, Mary leases an apartment in a house from her friend, Phyllis Lindstrom. Also leasing an attic loft from Phyllis is Rhoda Morgenstern, with whom Mary becomes fast friends.

That's true, R86, Rhoda was a manufactured "ugly duckling." But in real life, no fucking way would a woman like her - very pretty and funny - would be dateless. Her role on MTM was to be the anti-Mary. Rhoda was the girl who had to work for male attention, while all the guys were falling all over Mary. Fun, but totally unrealistic. People talked about it all the time when the series was originally on.

Also important was the episode when divorced Lou Grant was dating Charlene the fun time gal who'd been on tour with bands at sixteen, married several times and a currently sexually active person. Lou gets teased by Ted and Murray about Charlene having gotten around and Mary has to tell him she was the one who gave Charlene's personal life story to Ted and Murray to mock.

Lou is all intimidated by Charlene's sexual past and wants to break up with her, and Mary gets pissed and argues with him about it, demanding to know how many men is too many for a woman to have fucked. Lou answers, "Six." Mary is enraged again and tells off Lou, while we know she has definitely slept with 6+ men and IT IS NOT LOU'S OR ANYONE'S GAWD DAMNED BUSINESS.

Lou wanted to pork Mary.

[quote] Georgette was unbearable, especially when they increased the character's screen time after Rhoda and Phyllis left.

Georgette was an awful character. I felt bad for disliking her b/c she was so sweet, but really lame as a character. The baby voice, ugh. Then she became Ted's wife & the Ted character also suffered (became less interesting).

I was in New Zealand in the late '70s and was talking about American TV to someone. He said they had started to get MTM, but he couldn't watch it because the accents were so thick. What he could understand he liked and could tell the writing was good.

I never liked Mary's apartment that she moved to for the last 2 seasons. It was a big step down. I guess she didn't make it after all.

Most successful sitcoms took a while to come up to speed, usually hitting their stride by season 2.

NOBODY liked the apart in the high rise in the 1970s, R113.

So Mary was engaged to a gay man, then?

[quote] I never liked Mary's apartment that she moved to for the last 2 seasons. It was a big step down. I guess she didn't make it after all.

I liked the 2nd apartment, but it looked exactly like Bob Newhart's apartment. Also, in external shots, Mary's 2nd apartment looked as if it were situated in a tenement area.

R108 yeah but Valerie was chubby the first couple of seasons. We forget how frowned upon that was especially in the 70s - someone who was pretty and chubby they might as well have been ugly.

Phyllis was the manager of Mary's apartment building, so why did she have to move to San Francisco after Lars died?

Wouldn't that gig have provided enough income (not to mention housing) for her to stay put? How did they explain that?

R118, "we" forget? She was overweight, she wasn't disgustingly fat by any standard. The majority of people 30+ were carrying an extra 20 pounds and that didn't make them dateless or unmarriageable. Frowned upon by who? Life, real life, was not Twiggy in a fashion layout in Vogue.

Valerie was the side of a barn!

The real question is, why was the well-off, pseudo-intellectual, pretentious Phyllis even living in a multi-family house, rather than in some mcmansion?

The new apartment had Mary Kay Place and Penny Marshall as her neighbors, but they didn't last long. Penny's character was only in two episodes (although she was a different character in a third) and Mary Kay's was only in one.

R120 again, you’re using 2020 eyes on it. I don’t have a problem with it either, and she was always pretty but attitudes and standards were very different then.

Mary and Rhoda as BFFs made no sense. IRL, a glass is always half-full person like Mary would've found the always-negative Rhoda unbearable to be around. Now Mary and Joanne Forbes, there was a perfect friendship match. If only Joanne hadn't been so bigoted.

r117 Mary's second apartment is now the real ghetto of Minneapolis.

Rhoda/Valerie wasn't exactly fat. A bit out of shape (Valerie Harper was a dancer who had stopped dancing) but most of Rhoda's "fatness" was based on putting Harper into sweatshirts and ugly clothes.

I always like Rhoda because she was the unconventional cool one on the show. Mary was a classic Boomer. Career driven above all else including personal relationships. You could smell that Me, Me, Me in that apartment decor with the big M on the shelf.

Came across this old Rosie interview on YouTube.

Mary Tyler Moore had a bad cold, so kudos to her for showing up to promote her TV movie, but Valerie Harper stands out as the real star here. She's very chatty with Rosie and warm.

Rosie brings up a game show at one point, and Valerie has nice banter with her...and Mary says she refuses to watch game shows because they are so cheap to produce and could take over television and take all the jobs away from actors. Just sucked all the life out of the room. Before that, she told a long story about doing her own fall instead of the stunt person and breaking a bone on camera, and says to listen for the breaking bone sound in the video clip.

It's interesting that Mary was so serious. So was Lucille Ball. I wonder if it's common for lead comic actors to be unfunny on their own.

R128 Ha. Her hand gesture made me think of Moloch.

[quote]It's interesting that Mary was so serious.

In real life she was a bitter cunt. Not like a Mommy Dearest, more like a pissed off Boomer who hated anyone that might in any way affect HER career. No sense of humor ironically. She basically was the personification of Yuppie, generation to come "young upwardly-mobile professional"

Her roll in Ordinary People was probably the closest roll she played to being herself.

MTM was born in the 1930s, which predates the boomer boom.

Mary meeting Dick Nixon.

[quote]Her roll in Ordinary People was probably the closest roll she played to being herself.

Oh, dear!

R131 She based her interpretation of Beth in “Ordinary People” on her father, though I don’t doubt there was a lot of her own private personality in that performance as well.

Nonetheless, her brilliance in both The MTM Show and the aforementioned film serves to underscore what an amazing and underrated actress she was.

She might've been very ambitious and self-absorbed, but she wasn't so narcissistic to care if she were upstaged for the good of the show. Valerie, Betty, and/or Cloris pretty much stole any scene they were in, and Mary was happy let them shine. Hell, she let Barbara Colby steal two full shows right from under her. Colby was a force of nature.

Ask Rose Marie about MTM.

Darling, R124, I was in my twenties in the 1970s. If anything, the standards are worse TODAY. In the 70s, most people didn't exercise and were carting around extra pounds. No one blinked an eye.

"The real question is, why was the well-off, pseudo-intellectual, pretentious Phyllis even living in a multi-family house, rather than in some mcmansion?"

The answer is because Phyllis didn't and couldn't work. If in doubt, look at the shitty job she did as Mary's assistant for a few days before getting fired.

She owned the building and it was beautiful.

Her and Lars could not have owned that whole house by themselves. The two tenants allowed them to live a better lifestyle.

[quote] The answer is because Phyllis didn't and couldn't work. If in doubt, look at the shitty job she did as Mary's assistant for a few days before getting fired.

I loved the episode where Phyllis met with an employment agency worker, played by Doris Roberts. When asked what sort of job she was looking for, Phyllis said something interesting, a position of authority, one that paid extremely well, but would leave her plenty of free time. In response, she was asked if she had ever considered running for vice president. And when asked about any special skills she might have, Phyllis said, "I have an uncanny knack of choosing the right wine for dinner."

Mary’s second apartment was better because she wasn’t sleeping on a pullout sofa anymore.

The episodes with Phyllis were always my favorite. But when Cloris L was listed as a 'Special Guest Star' in the closing credits, that always threw me. If she was a SGS, how come i'd never heard of her until the MTM Show? Even as a twelve-year-old gayling i was up on my actors and actresses and movies, and The Last Picture Show was her entire filmography as far as i knew.

Georgette needed a little bit of an edge to her. Kind of like what Susan Harris and Betty White did with Rose Nylund.

Rhoda had all the makings of being a great TV show, but the writers dropped the ball from the word go by having her marry after a couple of episodes. It's like they forgot what made Rhoda so endearing to audiences.

"Rhoda" was originally written to be Mary's frumpy, chubby friend. The ethnic stereotype of being less desireable than the skinny shiksa lead and resorting to humor and self-deprecation to win attention. This was female comedy of the era (Think Totie Fields, Phyllis Diller, and Joan Rivers). The producers, at first, were hesitant to cast Valerie Harper for the part because she was too pretty. But she was so good in her auditions they hired her anyway and put her in frumpy clothes for the first few episodes.

Mary Mary, quite contrary

Why's her pussy so damn hairy?

R141, me neither. Give credit to her agent.

[quote]Give credit to her agent.

And her OSCAR.

I remember seeing an interview with Betty White when the show was running. She said she would always hear from local news crews about how their co-workers were sometimes like MTM. Some said they had a Lou Grant, some said they had a Mary, some said they had a Murray. But they ALL said they had a Sue Ann Nivens.

R146, the Mary Tyler Moore Show debuted in Sept 1970. Cloris Leachman didn't collect her Oscar until 1972.

I don't know whether Phyllis and Lars owned the entire building. IMO, they seemed more like property managers, making a profit from each renter's rent. It was kind of a low-rent (haha) way to make an income, so it seems believable that Phyllis hid that fact for a long time.

Phyllis was a housewife, a doctor's wife. I can see her being the most pretentious person in Minneapolis and feeling like she was too good for that town.

The actual building in Minneapolis is a regular single-family home, so there can't have been too many units in the building. Did they ever refer to any other tenants beside M, R, and P?

R150 No, I assume Phyllis lived on the main level, Mary on the second floor and Rhoda in the third floor loft.

The exterior shots definitely don't match the interiors. Specifically, on the interior shots, there's a staircase right outside Mary's front door that leads up to Rhoda's apartment. (Mary's apartment has the three tall windows; Rhoda's apartment is the turret.) In the exterior shots, the 2 apartments are on the same level.

Rhoda's apartment was tiny. Mary's was a large studio. Phyllis's was at least 2 bedrooms b/c she had a daughter, Bess. That house definitely was big enough for more than those 3 apartments (Mary's, Rhoda's, & Phyllis's).

Considering MTM's son 'accidentally' shot himself with a gun I wondered how accidental it was. I always got the impression she was actually Beth Jarrett. A very ambitious hard driven woman who did not suffer fools gladly. Kind of like Shirley MacLaine who devastated her daughter with her ambitions and indifference. If you think I'm being sexist there are also Christopher Plummer and Henry Fonda.

However when I was very young my parents had a friend who was very close to Rose Marie. She said she remembered visiting Rose Marie on the Dick Van Dyke set and when MTM brought her small son to the set she was a very doting mother.

MTM obsessive here. There was mention of another apartment. Guessing it was the 2nd floor. Originally the neighbor was a cocktail lounge pianist. She moved out to get married. Ted tried to rent it one episode. Never mentioned again as far as I remember.

I would SWEAR I remember Phyllis revealing that Lars owned the house. Not that they were only managers. Maybe she used the word "landlord."

I remember that episode, R154. Ted never moved in. One of my favorite episodes was when Lou did move into Rhoda's old apartment.

Yes. I referenced it earlier. Phyllis and Lars owned the building but did not let the tenants know. After hearing Phyllis defend the landlord P&L Managment, Mary figured out that it was Phyllis and Lars who owned the building.

Why did none of them ever appear on Lou Grant?

Lou Grant never gets discussed on here, but it was a big show for its time, and I think Nancy Marchand won the Emmy just about every year the show was on.

[quote] Phyllis was the manager of Mary's apartment building, so why did she have to move to San Francisco after Lars died? Wouldn't that gig have provided enough income (not to mention housing) for her to stay put? How did they explain that?

Lars died a bankrupt, so I would assume Phyllis had to sell off the house to pay off Lars's debts. In the 70s it was probably in his name.

She and Bess moved to San Francisco because Lars's debts wiped out her bank account, so she could live with Audrey, Lars's mother, and her second husband, Jonathan. They were quite rich (Jonathan was a judge) and had a beautiful large house with a view of the Bay.

[quote] Why did none of them ever appear on Lou Grant?

Because the tone was so different. Lou Grant was a drama, not a sitcom.

They would mention on the show that Lou was from Minneapolis, and that he was divorced and had adult daughters; but they never showed the daughters or the ex-wife, who would have been much more likely to show up in Los Angeles than Mary or Murray or Ted.

There was definitely at least a fourth apartment in the house. There was an episode in the first or second season where Phyllis returns a bag of ice cubes to Mary, which have all melted. She apologizes for bringing her a bag of water, telling Mary that she was delayed because she stopped to chat with Mildred on the way up.

Eileen Heckart reprised her Flo Meredith role (Mary's aunt) on Lou Grant, but that was it. Lou Grant was a smart series, and would've stayed on longer if not for Asner's liberal political views.

I don't think sitcoms used to be that attentive to detail and continuity. From I Love Lucy to Bewitched to Golden Girls, they all had the same guest actors play multiple different roles from season to season, etc. Addresses changed, back stories changed. There were no obsessive Internet fans and no on-demand episodes to remind viewers of mismatched elements. I think the point back then was just the stories and the humor. People knew they were watching something absurd and didn't obsess over the interior layout of a house or Phyllis's multiple maiden names.

I'm sure almost no one noticed in the 60s that Paul Lynde played a driving instructor on Bewitched before he was Uncle Arthur, or that Miles on Golden Girls had another name before he was called Miles.

A few MTM inconsistencies: (1) In an early season 1 episode, Mary said that her mother's name was Marge. When her mother appeared in season 3, played Nanette Fabray, her name was Dottie. (2) In the season 1 "Teddy Awards" episode, Lou mentions that the awards were established a year or two earlier. In the season 5 "Teddy Awards" episode, Mary quizzes Ted on past winners, asking him about winners from 10 and 15 years earlier. (3) In the season 3 episode where Rhoda loses her job, Phyllis hands her a book of matches and asks her draw the picture on the matchbook. Rhoda responds that the time has not yet come where she gets her job off a matchbook. But of course, in Valerie's voiceover in the season 1 opening credits of "Rhoda," she says that she got accepted to art school based on a drawing off a book of matches.

The guy who played Ralph the Doorman on The Jeffersons played two roles on MTM, in the season 1 Christmas episode and in the season 4 episode where Mary dates the anchorman from a competing station. Also Dick Schaal, Val's husband IRL, played Howard Arnell in a few early-season episodes, and then guested as a bar patron a few seasons later. I'm sure there were others.

[quote]Valerie Harper is extremely pretty and also the funniest person on the show. It really takes suspension of disbelief to pretend she is the dowdy, desperate loser compared with Mary.

I don't think either of their characters are set up that way at all. Don't know how you arrived at this idea.

[quote] Also Dick Schaal, Val's husband IRL, played Howard Arnell in a few early-season episodes, and then guested as a bar patron a few seasons later.

Yes, he was great as different characters on MTM. Old-looking, though.

I watched the series when it was first run and I’ve watched reruns many times. One thing that has always detracted from it for me was the tinkertoy newsroom. Mary’s desk never looked like she did anything, either.

Oh, god, Howard Arnell was the worst, always complaining about his feet and taking his shoes off. Ugh. Where did those writers come up with all that?

Can his really be Lisa Gerritsen?!

Not everybody can be Armand Linton.

R168 It's a minor quibble, all things considered, but the office setup distracts me, too. It makes the show come across like a stage play (which suits it because it's acted like a stage play, too--a good thing).

Mary and Murray are randomly looking right at us, while all the other desks are against a wall behind them and oriented differently. Mary, Murray, Lou and Ted almost exclusively interact. Mary was hired as the associate producer and she's one of the few employees Ted speaks to. Everyone behind them is completely ignored. It's an odd setup. You'd think they'd make C-story characters of the rest of them, at least. The black weatherman did get a few lines, but weirdly, both Phyllis and Rhoda show up and interact more with Mary and her friends than any other coworkers do.

The cute blond guy in the background was the son of the assistant director, John C. Chulay. He had some lines in the episode where they're trying to decide if they if they should take the chance and declare the teacher's strike over, based on one of their sources.

R162 Was Aunt Flo based on the Hearst reporter Adela Rogers St. Johns? I recall she made at least one appearance on Carson, and that suggested a strong resemblance.

"Rhoda's apartment was tiny."

WHY did Rhoda stay there, especially since she made more money that Mary?

"Considering MTM's son 'accidentally' shot himself with a gun I wondered how accidental it was. I always got the impression she was actually Beth Jarrett?

Shortly after MTM went on, Mary made a talk show appearance with Merv Griffin. She was surprisingly (to me) sullen and withdrawn. There was a long time before she relented to TV shows/interviews, and by then Mary was all peppy and rehearsed.

Valerie has said that MTM was just like Mary Richards, except that MTM was more sophisticated. Here's an interview with MTM. Based on her hair style and the clothes, it looks like it was just around the start of season 3. YES, MARY!!!!

Apparently today, this VERY DAY - 3/14 - is the anniversary of the episode where Rhoda announced she was moving back to New York.

Not yet mentioned - having a funny Jewish girl friend of the lead - was completely different than any other sitcom. In years past, it would have been considered too "risky" to have an ethnic friend in the cast. But the emergence of Miss Streisand as stage-movie-music superstar in the 1960s helped the suits consider the viability of a character like Rhoda in 1970. Rhoda even mentions her school association with Streisand several times as to make it alright. In reality of course, Rhoda was from the Bronx and Streisand was from Brooklyn, so it could not be an actual connection. I loved all of this - at the time.

Before the show went on the air, they photographed Mary in a real newsroom:

I always assumed Valerie Harper was Jewish because of Rhoda.

^ interviewers asked her so she could get out of it

The MTM show was a nice combo of work life and home life. There were already enough characters (half-hour show) without giving lines to the coworkers in the background. I agree the office set looked cheap-ish, though.

The office looked cheap-ish, but remember WJM"s newscast was always supposed to be a third-rank operation.

r182=Ross Nelson

[quote]why was the well-off, pseudo-intellectual, pretentious Phyllis even living in a multi-family house,

The bohemian spirit.

Mary looked awful in season 6. Between the tired, heavy eyes which even makeup couldn't hide and those awful wigs, she did not look good. She looked refreshed in season 7. Did she have any work done between the final two seasons?

Larger chest, yes.

"Rhoda was always written as a dateless wonder."

I never got the impression she was ignored by men. I just assumed she was unlucky in love. But I do think the emphasis on her weight was silly. She was NOT that big, that is, so big it would make men less inclined to date her. And she had a very pretty face. I just chalked up her inability to find/keep a boyfriend to bad luck.

Now Rhoda's sister Brenda (played by Julie Kavner)...well, the way she looked did seem to play a role in her being a wallflower. She was overweight, had a funny looking face and a grating voice. I remember a scene in a "Rhoda" episode where Brenda is complaining about how she was viewed in comparison to Rhoda concerning their weight problems: "With Rhoda, they'd say "What a shame, Rhoda has such a pretty face." With me they'd just say "What a shame!"

Mary was the girl you married and brought home to mom. Rhoda was the chick with low self-esteem who's a quick, easy lay.

Julie Kavner's voice is on The Simpsons - as Marge Simpson. For decades now. Who knows how many millions she has socked away now.

R189 According to various sources, Julie Kavner makes $300,000 to $4000,000 per Simpsons episode and is worth $50 to $80 million.

R189 according to google she is worth 100 million. She makes $400,000 an episode.

R190 as of 2021 It's 100 million.

Apparently Julie Kavner's voice is changing. She turned 70.

I still listen to reruns of "Car Talk." The surviving brother, Ray, still does current intros, commercials, etc. He sounds exactly as he always did. He's 71. I think he takes care of his voice.

You have to wonder if calling Eileen Heckart's character "Aunt Flo" was a little joke/double entendre from the writers.

It was the 1970s, R188. Most women were quick and easy. Mary was the hold out.

R179 and if you close your eyes she sounds just like Estelle Getty.

Yes, R29. Poor Mary! ;o I remember that season when she had that weird conch shell-like, suddenly different looking and colored hairdo in Season 6 -- plus it was as if she or the production staff decided that she would have a new look as if she wore no makeup and never slept. She looked awful (I say that in the sense that she looked rundown or ill). Then...bam! Season 7 and the straight underflipped 'do is back, but suddenly Mary's got these deer-in-the-headlights look as if she must've had some major eyelift surgery done or else they were glued back or open, or something.

Funny how Mary's '70s sitcom was touted as being groundbreaking for single working women, but for all that looking back the show has a very dated something about it, with Mary being very concerned about changing her hairstyle in each scene or workday, being over-obsessed with her (agreeably beautiful) clothes, and somehow having the money and energy to go on several worknights' date every week!

John Harkins, who played the preacher in the chuckles bites the dust episode, later played Ham Lushbow on Golden Girls. I wonder if he and Betty reminisced the week he guested on GG.

The Lear shows, especially All in the Family, Maude, Good Times, and yes, even One Day at a Time, were much more groundbreaking and pioneering than the MTM shows. They were just so much more cutting-edge and avant garde. The MTM shows were high quality, but relatively standard TV fare compared to the Lear vehicles.

^ Mary wore wigs in 99.99% of the MTM episodes

I think the show really took off consistently as far as brilliant and iconic writing and situations from Season 3. The first 2 seasons have a kind of borscht-belt humor and parade of hammy-acting guest stars, and the main characters' looks and personalities finally start to settle in. Mary and Rhoda get more sophisticated-looking, too. One of the best TV ensemble casts ever. That's what made the MTM Show great -- not just Mary on her own, but her character's and her character's situations' interplay with the other brilliantly written and acted characters.

I don't think Moore wore wigs as Mary Richards most of the time during the show's later seasons (except for that thing on her head through most of the 6th season). But I have read widely that during the 1st and 2nd seasons she did wear falls or long wigs over her then-actually short hair, between circa 1970-72.

R187

Julie Kavner lucked into "The Simpsons" and has made more money than God voicing Marge Simpson and a few others.

Who would have known watching her back in Rhoda days......

"If you pay close attention throughout the show, you will notice something very odd: Mary is wearing a wig during the first season of her show. This was apparently done as a bid to make Mary look less like Laurie Petrie from The Dick Van Dyke Show, distancing herself from that character. Later, the wig was ditched and Mary’s hair was noticeably different. "

MTM's hairstyles both in front of camera and real life over the years.

Tidbit:

Mary Tyler Moore and Ed Asner (who played Lou Grant on the show) had met before – they starred together in Elvis’ movie, Change of Habit.

R190 Julie! My. God. You beautiful fucker, you.

Mary's hairdos were old-fashioned, even for the time. (Helmet-ish.)

Women in the mid-west, south, and some other parts of country clung to big or helmet hair long into 1970's and 1980's. Even Peg Bundy wore helmet hair and that was late 1980's well into 1990's.

MTM wore wigs for much of her career. She was a diabetic and like many diabetics, had very thin hair.

But, there's a lot of fake hair in TV and film. Many, many actresses wear wigs or hair pieces on screen and in public. In the long run, it's just easier and faster to use wigs.

Men, too, for that matter.

Thank you R210. 100% correct.

R202, time to get your eyes checked, MTM's wigs are obvious. Even Rhoda wore wigs on her series.

"Helmet hair," R209? What a stupid invented term.

How old are you 212?

R212, aren't all terms "invented terms"?

Invented by someone who knows nothing about the subject. R209 has been here for years pontificating on helmet hair. I can just see someone asking the hairdresser, "give me that groovy helmet look!" Post a pic of what you think helmet hair looks like.

R215, I was called "helmet hair" in school in the 80s, because I had a thick head of hair that grew out in, well, the shape of a helmet made of hair.

I'm not R209, but this doesn't sound like anything new to me (or to the kids who joked me in the 80s).

I wanted Rod Porter in me quite deeply.

[quote] MTM wore wigs for much of her career. She was a diabetic and like many diabetics, had very thin hair.

She wasn't diagnosed as diabetic until 1969.

She may not have bee diagnosed, R218, but she probably had diabetes long before. That's TYPE 1 DIABETES.

Nice, R216, but when conversing with those who didn't know you in HS, you must use language and terms that are familiar to others and in context to the subject at hand. Otherwise, you look like a blubbering fool.

I couldn't stand breathy-voiced 1930s throwback Georgette, and the relationship with Ted was stomach-turning (because he makes my skin crawl and she's a child-woman).

Murray and Ted were two of the most unfuckable men ever put on the planet.

Ted was supposed to be attractive. Rhoda thought he was handsome. She and Mary double-dated with Ted (who was Mary's date) and Hal (Ted's brother, played by Jack Cassidy).

I guess handsome is in the eye of the beholder. Remember how they all gushed over that ski instructor Paul? Lou even told Mary that he was prettier than her. I didn't find the actor the least bit attractive.

Whose cute idea was it to pair Mary with Jerry Van Dyke? Those two episodes he was in just sucked donkey balls. He was unwatchable in just about everything he was in. Hands down, he was Mary's worst pairing, even worse than that Ted Bessel character.

R225 I agree about the pairing. But that amazing scene in the lady’s room with Mary and Mr. Grant is one of the funniest. They didn’t do physical humor often, but him wiping her tears with that reusable hand towel machine is hilarious, especially with Mary doing her patented crying.

Nanette Fabray in her archives interview claims that Mary leveraged her "talking through tears" shtick from Sid Caeser. Nanette said that Mary loved Caeser and asked her to teach her how use that technique. This would've been for the first episode on which Nanette guest starred. That doesn't ring true, since I feel that Mary was using that old shtik on the DvD Show.

Rhoda: So I tuned into the news and and who do I see but this movie star.

Mary. Yeah, that's Rod Porter.

Rhoda: Boy, is he ever!

The only pairing that ever worked IMO was with Michael Tolan, who played her writing teacher/BF Dan Whitfield in a few episodes. Not the most attractive guy in the world, despite Rhoda gushing over his looks in a couple of episodes, but he was a good actor and they did have chemistry.

I have never seen this show before and started watching it today because of this thread. I like it

Mary should've kept Matt Bryan (Bradford Dillman) around longer. I liked him.

Bradford Dillman was such a hottie.

I'm off to the Garment District, bitches. I'll check back in after I arrive back home and disinfect myself.

According to MTM biographer Herbie Pilato, Mary wasn't exactly thrilled working with scene-stealer Valerie Harper and was wary of Rhoda's growing popularity. When Rhoda was spun off into its own series, it was a double win for Mary. She got Valerie out of her spotlight, and as co-owner of MTM Enterprises, she had another lucrative hit series in her hands.

I loved Mary’s first apartment. Her second one was so ugly.

I don’t think she ever had much chemistry with any love interest. In the first season she seemed younger than her age but by the end of the series she seemed about 50 yet was still in her 30s.

The series was so insular. I always thought it bizarre how often Mary socialized with Lou, Murray and Ted without their wives.

r234 Harper always told a different story. I think that book is sensationalizing and trying to create a catfight.

Harper was offered her own series after the first season. She was afraid to go since it could flop. She then stayed with MTM for four more years. When they asked her again to do her own series Harper says Moore eased her out of the nest. She said one day at lunch Moore asked do you want to be known just as my sidekick? To which Harper replied yes. Moore than made a promise that if Rhoda flopped they would just have Rhoda move back to Minneapolis and Harper could rejoin MTM.

The way Valerie told it, she was reluctant to leave the show for the spinoff, and Mary basically asked her, do you want to be my second banana for the rest of your life? It sounds like Mary encouraged her out of the goodness of her heart. She even told Val she could return if the show tanked.

r157 Phyllis and Lars just managed the building. They didn't own it.

Sort of an odd thing. A doctor should have been able to afford a house especially with a status conscious wife like Phyllis.

I haven't seen Georgette yet, just bits and pieces on YT. Did Georgia Engel play the same persona over and over again? The characters always seemed to be the same no matter what show she appeared in.

R229 beat me to it about Michael Tolan as boyfriend Dan. However, he wasn't a funny character, he wouldn't have been good for the show in the long run.

"But that amazing scene in the lady’s room with Mary and Mr. Grant..."

R226, are you aware that it's LADIES ROOM not lady's room?

R234, Herbie Pilato is full of shit. He sounds like some prissy queen who learned about women and TV from watching daytime soap operas. MARY-RHODA was the show, even more than Mary and the newsroom. Mary knew she was the straight man, she wasn't jealous of Rhoda. Jesus.

[quote] I always thought it bizarre how often Mary socialized with Lou, Murray and Ted without their wives.

Guest stars don't work for free.

[quote] Did Georgia Engel play the same persona over and over again? The characters always seemed to be the same no matter what show she appeared in.

No, on Everybody Loves Raymond her character was much more multi-dimensional and toyed with her image as a goody two-shoes.

To me, Georgette stuck out like a sore thumb. Why was she at the Teddy Awards or Mary's disastrous parties when none of the other wives were there? Why the fuck was she in the final scene? She didn't work at the station.

R244 and R235, do you understand this is a television show and not real life? They can do whatever they want with characters and without characters. Apparently they had big plans for Georgette.

Some of Rhoda's early one-liners were cringeworthy. For example, to Phyllis after Phyllis walks into Mary's apartment wearing a nursing uniform.

Rhoda: What is that...a Christian Dior or a Marcus Welby?

I'm watching Mary Tyler Moore shows on youtube...all free.

I loved Georgette...very ditzy, but very cute. Georgette Ingalls was perfect for that part...cherub face, with an adorable smile and voice. She was so naive, but would come out with some zingers...uncharacteristic of her innocence.

Georgette was in her twenties on the show, Ted was fifty. EWWWW.

[quote] Georgette Ingalls

We're talking about Mary Tyler Moore, not Little House on the Prairie.

Georgette Ingalls was Laura's distant relative....but worked on MTM. It was discovered on the PBS show, Finding Your Roots.

Ted with anyone...EWWW.

The hottest bf on the show was Doug Hempel. Too bad he just wanted to be friends with Rhoda.

Who writes these shows? Doug Hemple wouldn't sleep with Rhoda, and on her show, Judd Hirsch wouldn't sleep with her. Only in TV land are women like Rhoda dateless and without sex partners.

R239, Engel proved she was capable of more as she moved into stage work in her older age. Annie Baker wrote the lead role in John for her and she was phenomenal in the part.

I can't believe that a website often given over to musings about what's on a dead person's i-pod, pondering the most painful ways to die and how exactly a legless man flies out of rollercoaster to his death (or why he was even on it in the 1st place), has no appreciation for the Chuckles TV episode - kind of edgy for it's time - about a character trying not to laugh over a bizarre death

It's because the Chuckles episode is one of the ten worst of the series and has been promoted as the best of the series. That annoys people. And no, it wasn't at all edgy for 1976-77. Let me guess, R256, you weren't born yet, right?

R223, Jack Cassidy was almost as well endowed as his son.

You mean moved 𝒃𝒂𝒄𝒌 to stage work, r255.

The problem with Chuckles is it was a one-off. Unlike many of the other episides, once you'd seen it there wasn't any reason to watch it a second or third time.

Mary said on Dick Cavett that she emulated Nanette's crying on Sid's show, r227.

I didn't enjoy that talking / crying thing that Mary did.

MTM is my absolute favorite show. However, there are dozens of MTM shows that were a hell of a lot funnier, appealing and memorable than the Chuckles the Clown episode. I don't like the Chuckles episode getting so much attention as the best or one of the best because it's not representative of how good, well-acted and well-written the show was. There are so many other worthy episodes to bestow praise.

Here are just a few examples of outstanding episodes: Veal Prince Orloff; Sue Ann Has an affairs with Phyllis' husband; Mr and Mrs. Armand Linton; Phyllis has to get a job; Rhoda loses her job; Sue Ann food poisons the newsroom staff to get the intern kicked off her show, Rhoda dates Phyllis' gay brother, Mary in jail with the two hookers, etc., etc.

Why was Georgette at Chuckles' funeral, but not Marie?

Chuckles Bites the Dust was really an inferior episode, and it also felt like Mary was just phoning it in. If you check out Allen Burns' archives interview, he chuckles (no pun intended) about how iconic people have made the episode and laughs about TV Guide naming it one of the best sitcom episodes ever. Like other posters, I can immediately name a dozen or so superior episodes. My favorite writer for the show was Treva Silverman. She wrote most of the Mary/Rhoda-centric episodes.

^ straight guys don't like sitcom episodes written or starring women.

Because the less amount of camera time spent on little Miss Joyce Bulifant, the better, r264.

Although Mary was generally consider to be chaste and "pure," I remember an episode where Mary's parents came to visit. Mary's mom says to Mary's father, "Don't forget to take your pill."

Both her father and Mary answer, "I won't." Then Mary realizes what she's said and just stands there, her eyes darting back and forth.

This was clearly a way to demonstrate that Mary was on the pill and not necessarily as "pure" as she seemed to be. It was an ingenious way for the show to make Mary a real person without being shocking or offensive.

[quote] Because the less amount of camera time spent on little Miss Joyce Bulifant, the better, [R264].

Miss Joyce Bulifant was believable as a woman married to a gay man (Murray, played by DL non-fave, Gavin McLeod), though.

R268, Mary fulfilled Lou Grant's "six" standard, therefore she was PURE.

Because maybe I was busy making a soon-to-fail pilot, R264! Or was on The Match Game again, cunt at R269!

Or maybe I was just getting married again when they filmed that, I honestly can't remember

Jesus...the "We Hate the Chuckles The Clown Dies Episode" people just won't let it go.

Also: Lars and Phyllis DID own the house, though Phyllis pretended they didn't. Which didn't make tons of sense since Lars was a dermatologist but TV seldom has much logic with character development and plot lines. And, Lars having a thick Scandinavian accent (at least according to Phyllis's snarky imitation of him she would do) didn't make much sense since in "Phyllis" they had Lars have a very American family in San Francisco.

Georgia Engle was great as Georgette. And, the show used her wisely...sparingly here and there, otherwise you'd get tired of the character's whimsy.

And, what you saw was pretty much what you got with Georgia/Georgette. A friend of mine worked at a dinner theater she did a play at and Georgia wasn't that much different than Georgette. But, quite a few actors play characters not that far removed from their own personalities.

I thought the Chuckles episode was hilarious but also very real. When the minister starts mentioning the different characters’ names and they strike Mary as a bit humorous, then funny, then downright hysterical to the point where she completely loses it, is something that people could actually relate to, unlike most of the rest of the series.

Embarrassing, uncomfortable and humiliating and something you never want TO happen. The situation was realistic as well as painfully funny, a combination not often seen in sitcoms.

I saw Lisa Gerritsen in a pre-school year gathering at Western Washington University. This was in the late 1970s, either '77 or '79. I was about five feet from her. I looked at her and said, "Lisa Gerritsen?" She gave me a look that told me she never wanted anybody to recognize her in public.

R272, that's why they named Georgia's character Georgette, so she's remember it.

" But, quite a few actors play characters not that far removed from their own personalities."

Exactly, r272.

R273 pleading for the Chuckles show must REMIND US OF THE PLOT. No sale.

Rhoda had some good guest stars, including John Ritter as an accordion playing lothario, and Ruth Gordon as Carlton the doorman’s mother. I was waiting with baited breath to see if Gordon was going to share a scene with Nancy Walker, but this did not occur. For some reason I was anticipating a real head to head, seems like they would have been competing for similar roles at that career stage. Probably best they were kept apart.

For all of the GAY worship of MTM

All In The Family was FAR funnier.

I met MTM & her third husband. Very nice. No wig. Her hair wasn’t thin. Very casual. Up in a ponytail.

[quote] I was waiting with baited breath

Your mouth must smell like Cheryl's pussy.

[quote]Why was Georgette at Chuckles' funeral, but not Marie?

Because guest stars don't work for free.

Why was Georgette in so many episodes, but Marie only appeared in the infrequent Murray-centered episodes? And where the hell was Edie? Did Priscilla Morrill really cost THAT much money?

Georgette started out as Mary's friend, i.e., part of Mary's apartment life (vs. her office life). Georgette then dated Ted, who treated her like a doormat. Georgette got some advice from Mary & others. Georgette grew some balls (a couple of really small balls). Ted treated her better and then they got married.

Rhoda and Phyllis left to do their own shows and Mary was in need of an apartment life friend. Georgette filled that gap, but not nearly as well as did Rhoda and Phyllis.

At some point, Ted and Georgette adopted a child ... Cousin Oliver.

"Georgette started out as Mary's friend..."

That's what they TELL us, but Georgette was not seen in any episode as Mary's friend until the party where she met Ted.

I couldn't stand Phyllis and never found her funny.

The saying goes:

Mary is who you wanted to be.

Rhoda is who you probably were.

Phyllis is who you were scared you might turn into.

R286, Phyllis is not supposed to be funny, she's supposed to be self-centered and annoying.

[quote] I always thought it bizarre how often Mary socialized with Lou, Murray and Ted without their wives.

Not really.

Mary actually socialized quite a lot with Georgette, whom she met through Rhoda (they both worked at Hempel's department store) and whom she actually introduced to Ted before Georgette and Ted married in the last season.

And Lou and Edie divorced pretty early in the series, so there was not point in having Edie around when she was no longer with Lou (although the show was very careful to establish that Mary and Edie really liked each other). And Marie, Murray's wife, also got along very well with Mary, but she was busy raising the Slaughters's three daughters in suburbia, whereas Mary lived closer to downtown Minneapolis where she and Murray and Mr. Grant all worked.

They implied that Mary fucked some guy and spent the night with him, in the episode where her parents move to town. Also, in the season 6 ep where Lou fucks Sue Ann, he asks Mary rhetorically, 'did you ever wake up next to a total stranger', and she responds yes.

Edie left Lou a couple of seasons in. It was the 1970s, and she'd had her consciousness raised. She realized she'd been to paradise, but she'd never been to Edie.

Had she ever been to Edith or Editha, r291?

Mary was implied to be quite the ho based on what I've seen so far.

Most surprising to me was when Phyllis made a comment about how it wouldn't be fun to be in a straight jacket (or something like that) and Mary laughs. She stands up, struts acros the room and says, "Hey, don't knock it till ya try it." And Phyllis's jaw drops and she gets a big naughty grin and then Mary moves on...

"straight jacket"

Oh, dear!

"Mary was implied to be quite the ho based on what I've seen so far."

You're dreaming.

She was a bit of a slut. Remember when Phyllis told her that it was almost as if her brother Ben and Mary were saved for each other, and Mary responded that she's not all that saved? Plus, she lived with that doctor for two years and it was implied that they had a hot sex life. Basically, our Mary was a walking "petrie" dish, pun fully intended.

This is a neat look behind the scenes:

I tried watching "Rhoda" and "Phyllis" on YT the other night. Frankly, I found "Rhoda" unwatchable. The character changed too much, and I found the supporting characters uninteresting and not very likable. Rhoda worked tons better as a supporting character on MTM. Now, and I know this is not popular opinion, but I found "Phyllis" surprisingly fun and enjoyable. Cloris is really great, and they gave her a very strong supporting cast.

R296, aka Church Lady, a 30+ woman who has not "saved herself" is NOT A SLUT. In any era.

Dave Davis, the show writer & producer featured in R297’s link, has been Julie Kavner’s partner in life since 1976.

Some people still believe in saving themselves for marriage, and that sex out of wedlock is immoral.

Julie Kavner has a face made for voiceover work.

Rhoda the show had a lot of problems with the writing staff — they had different head writers every season, none of them that great.

Phyllis, OTOH, had the Charles brothers, who went on to do Taxi and Cheers.

Mary was not a slut. Geez.

The character of Phyllis was too unlikeable and tedious to carry a series and the whole thing just seemed contrived. Rhoda already had a backstory and a family in NY but the Phyllis show could have been about any random single woman.

The Chuckles episode was so forced.

Much of the MTM show was written with a certain level of sophistication.

But this stuff was just lame:

"He had dressed as Peter Peanut, and a rogue elephant tried to "shell" him".

Or ""He could've gone as Billy Banana and had a gorilla peel him to death."".

And so on.

It was not the writing expected from MTM.

It pains me to say it, because I generally love the MTM Show, but the chuckles episode was probably the worst written, acted, and directed episode of the entire seven seasons. I've seen better written episodes of tripe like Mama's Family and Three's Company.

The Chuckles episode is a widely acknowledged classic, and DL is not going to wrest its laurels away. You people who don't like it REALLY DON'T LIKE IT— we get it. You made your point.

The funeral scene where Mary is trying unsuccessfully to stifle her laughter is some of the best comic acting I've ever seen.

I've seen funnier episodes of She's the Sheriff than that episode.

Then you have no taste, R309.

Mama's Family was like Masterpiece Theater compared to that episode.

The chuckles the clown episode is the MTM equivalent of the Golden Girls backdoor Empty Nest pilot with Rita Moreno. Embarrassing, cringeworthy writing all around. Who greenlights such garbage?

R274, do you think the Lisa Gerritsen in R170’s link is the older version of the college-aged woman you saw?

Lisa Gerritsen’s disappearing act rivals that of Michael Schoeffling.

Yeah, I have to agree that the Rhoda spinoff wasn't very good. It just didn't have funny scripts or situations. You had funny characters, (or at least the core ones: Rhoda, Brenda and their parents) but Joe was a bore and the marriage was such a lousy idea to hang a show on. They would have had to get another FUNNY actor to be her husband not some hunky stiff like David Groh.

Phyllis was a bit funnier. It had hilarious characters and funnier scripts. But, both "Rhoda" and "Phyllis" suffered because they should have been structured like the MTM Show. Funny home life AND funny work life. This is why MTM Show and the Bob Newhart Show were both far better shows.

And, they blew it with Rhoda...she was in NYC and she was a design person! They should have had her working on something fun like in the costume or set decoration department on Broadway or in television with funny people at work to deal with balanced with funny shit at home. Same with Phyllis...they should have given her a better job to do. They could have had her work with fabulous gays!

Joe may have been a "bore" to you, but Rhoda's wedding was a smash hit ratings wise, and show did quite well after her marriage.

When the stupid and backwards decision was made to write Joe out of the scene by having Rhoda divorce ratings plummeted. The show never regained early successes and ended up being cancelled.

"Audiences were equally stunned and deserted the program in droves. Although the producers believed the plot development was essential, the fan response to Rhoda and Joe's separation was overwhelmingly negative and hostile. CBS was inundated with thousands of angry letters protesting the plot development, "Rhoda" and "Joe" received sympathy cards and letters of condolence, with Groh later reporting that he had received hate mail for as much as a year after the season had ended. This sentiment would translate into a steep ratings decline during the course of the season and the show ranked #32 for the 1976–77 season (falling from #7 the year before). "

Another point of view....

R316 Thanks for sharing, Grandma Groh!

The "Put On a Happy Face" episode. I think this is in the Top 5 MTM best episodes. It had to have been one of the episodes Mary won an Emmy for. It holds up pretty well.

The obituaries gag alone is hilarious.

R319 that one iss probably my favorite episode.

In our household, we call it the "Mary's Bad Hair Day" episode.

“I usually look so much cuter.”

Also up there, for me, is the Ted Baxter's Famous Broadcaster's School

[quote] the Rhoda spinoff wasn't very good. It just didn't have funny scripts or situations. You had funny characters, (or at least the core ones: Rhoda, Brenda and their parents) but Joe was a bore [...]

The way I see it, standard sitcoms work conceptually in two ways: Your main character is the odd ball with the supporting characters being the normal ones. ALF or Mork being the prime examples. Or: The main character is the only normal one, and all the support characters are the odd balls. MTM being the prime example for this one. If you try to develop a concept somewhere in between it's going to be difficult. Frasier and The Nanny found places somewhere between these concepts. But I think not by design. I think they started to gravitate to a different direction throughout their runs.

Rhoda was developed as an odd ball for Mary. Moving her to her own show required a choice. Should she be THE odd ball, or should she be the only normal one? And I think that's what they couldn't figure out.

The Chuckles episode made Hee Haw look like Brideshead Revisited.

[quote][R296], aka Church Lady, a 30+ woman who has not "saved herself" is NOT A SLUT. In any era.

Apparently your memory only goes back as far as the late '60s.

"The Chuckles episode is a widely acknowledged classic"

Yes, by people who admire the writing on Gilligan's Island.

About the Rhoda series, which I saw when it was originally on - long after Joe was gone, they even tried a too obvious "Lou Grant" character for Rhoda in the person of Kenneth McMillon as the fat, gruff, boss Jack Doyle. Complete fail. The Gary and Benny thing was also a dud. I loved Vivian Vance and the storyline, wish she had become a series regular. Johnny Venture was a good character too. Liked Anne Meara. Any episode with Nancy Walker as Ida was worth watching. BUT -

The Rhoda show just didn't gel though I watched every week hoping hoping it would :(

"Not a Christmas Story" is one of my favorite episodes. Work gang has preexisting beefs and end up getting snowed in (WJM office) at the end of a work day. Luckily, Sue Ann had been shooting her Christmas episode (in November) and had a table full of food and alcohol.

I have told this story here before, but I met MTM in the early 2000s. I was visiting California and was with some friends walking around Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. This young actress type came out of a store and started yelling about her missing dog. Two guys told her they had seen a lady untie the dog from the parking meter where the girl had left it, and had taken the dog up the street. She went tearing off around the corner, and we decided to follow to see what was going to happen.

We turn the corner, and there is Mary Tyler Moore holding the dog. The young actress type was trying to be respectful but was also miffed that MTM had spirited off with her dog. MTM was sweet but firm, saying something like, "You shouldn't leave your dog on the street, dear." MTM was taking the dog to the BH pound!

MTM's outfit was spectacular--white leather bomber jacket and animal print skirt, but SUPER skinny and full Joker face (fit in on Rodeo Drive). We spoke briefly to her and said how much we had enjoyed her work. She was very sweet and seemed appreciative.

I still think it was weird she had taken the dog. You see leashed dogs in front of stores all the time.

My favorite DVD episode...

Re the episode at r327, why is Georgette there but not Marie? For fuck sake, Ted and Georgette weren't even married at that point.

R330, it wasn't a planned get-together. They were snowbound. Somehow, I forgot why, Georgette and Ted were in a car together, heading to WJM, regardless of this "Christmas" feast. Marie was probably at home, cooking dinner and helping the kids with their homework, awaiting the arrival of the very heterosexual Murray. Also, Miss Joyce Bulifant's schedule cannot be discounted. She may have been booked solid and unable to perform for this episode.

Watched earlier on Decades today - The second Armand Linton and Ted goes on vacation episodes.

r329 "Words and music by Mildred Helper."

"146 Bonny Meadow Road."

And this is the effective part, r333, where you sell it with...

How come Rhoda visited Mary at the station all the time and interacted/was friendly with Lou and Murray, but we never saw Mary visit Rhoda at Hempels or interact with any of Rhoda's coworkers?

Armand Linton was a really good character, as was Mrs. Armand Linton.

I'm going to go out on a limb, R335, and say it's because it was called "The Mary Tyler Moore Show."

Ted called Armand Linton "Almond."

Was Georgette purposely written as retarded?

r339 writes retarded.

The Chuckles episode is worth it for MTM's performance at the funeral.

"why is Georgette there but not Marie?"

What is this fucking love affair with MARIE (Joyce Bulifant)??? Maybe she was only contracted for so many episodes. Maybe they had a long term deal with dimwit Georgette because the wanted to pair her with asshole dimwit Ted Baxter?

R335, take a pill and go to bed.

"Ted called Armand Linton "Almond."

NO ONE knows how to pronounce almond - the L is silent. Therefore, Armand could be almond in American English.

R335. R337. Mary went to see Rhoda at Hempels department store once. Mary was trying to talk with Rhoda while she doing a display in the window and ended up freezing in place to look like a mannequin when passersby outside walked by.

Marie neither appeared nor was mentioned in the Murray-centric episode in which he fell in love with Mary. I thought her absence in that otherwise silly episode was jarring. Certainly a highly rated and regarded show like MTM had the budget to have Joyce appear more than once a season. She was a very interesting actress who brought such nuance to her portrayal of Marie, no matter how infrequent she appeared.

Damn, Mary looked like she aged twenty years over the span of seven seasons.

Shows have budgets set and production companies, studios and networks insist you stay within those budgets. And, they have budgets for "guest actors" and if they know they want to spend a few extra bucks one week to have a bigger name or need several guests, then that means you're gonna get several episodes with few or NO guest stars.

And, frankly, Joyce Bullifant was VERY disposable.

Why bump up boring Georgia Engel to full-time status when they had already introduced Joyce, who was a charming actress. Marie would've been a better fit for the gang that Georgette. I'm sorry, but Joyce deserved a meatier role, certainly more than dopey Georgia.

Great...now we have a Joyce Bullifant Loon.

"Joyce" is a synonym for "talentless."

Miss Joyce Bulifant was irritating, especially on the episode where Murray’s dormant gambling addiction is awakened at a poker game w/Lou, Ted, and Gordy (I think). Marie goes to Mary’s (who came up w/all these names) house in the middle of the night, demanding that Mary stop the poker game. Marie was very whiney and irritating. Ugh.

R348

Likely because Ted Baxter was or had become more important to show than Murray.

Early on Murray seemed like Mary's gay side kick co-worker. Always quick with a witty remark or joke (especially where Ted Baxter was concerned), but Ted's character actually grew IMHO. As that happened it was inevitable that he would get a gf who soon became his wife.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this show - the one where Lou comes in drunk and chases Mary around the office

Would the chuckles bites the dust episode have been better if Marie was the one laughing at the funeral? Joyce could've pulled it off splendidly, and without the distracting cheap wig or eye bags.

The Chuckles Bites the Dust episode would have been better if it had been "Marie Slaughter Bites the Dust".

There was an episode called "I Love a Piano" where Murray goes shopping for a 2nd-hand piano. He meets a woman (played by DL fave Barbara Barrie) who is selling a piano. Murray goes over to the woman's house to "test drive" the piano. Murray and BB sit at the piano and sing "Strangers in the Night." The woman makes it clear she will have sex with Murray, but Murray resists mightily. Sadly, Joyce Bulifant was left out of this episode as well.

356 posts and no one's mentioned that DL fave Helen Hunt played Murray and Marie's daughter?

"played by DL fave Barbara Barrie"???

I was unaware. I once stood next to Barbara Barrie on a Madison Ave bus...thankfully her colostomy bag didn't explode. As per her book - it did once!

"All In The Family was FAR funnier."

I didn't think so. And it could be so tiresome; ha ha, Archie's bigoted and ignorant, ha ha, so funny. It was tedious.

All in the Family was a different kind of show than MTM.

I just had this vision of Lucille Ball doing the Mary laughing bit in the chuckles episode. MTM was nice and subtle. Can you imagine Lucy doing that? She would've been mugging for the camera, making crazy faces, and they would have had to pry her from the ceiling.

They never really explain why Rhoda moved to NY. On the first episode she goes for a vacation. She meets Joe but it doesn't get that serious. She calls in sick to work and says she just bought herself another week in NYC.

Then in the second episode she gets a trunk from Mary who packed up her apartment for her.

Rhoda moves after two weeks of dating and then doesn't even bother to go home and pack or give notice at her job?

I've read Valerie Harper hated how they rushed Rhoda and Joe into a relationship. I can see why.

David Groh was probably my first crush as a young gayling. I thought he was so handsome and well-built, and I was transfixed by his chest hair. I didn't know what it meant at the time.

r348 Georgette wasn't boring.

Her first few appearances both at parties of Mary's bring huge laughs every she says something. They saw how funny she was and kept brining her back. Then when Rhoda left she became the person who'd drop in at Mary's apartment for home scenes (when Phyllis) wasn't on.

MTM and Grant Tinker discovered Engel in a play (The House of Blue Leaves) in LA and liked her so much they had her put on the show. The fact that they discovered her probably helped in her getting hired.

this is sort of an eerie talk show appearance of MTM. She's promoting Ordinary People on Letterman. The next day her son would die in real life.

It's a shame her career tanked after Ordinary People. Six Weeks was supposed to be her big follow-up to OP, but it was a box-office and critical disaster. She then returned to TV with a succession of failed sitcoms. She was deservedly an icon until the end of her life, but she really did nothing of note after OP.

What's your point, r359? All sitcoms have predictable characters. That's part of the formula. On MTM, week after week, Ted says something stupid, Murray insults Ted, Murray insults Sue Ann, Sue Ann is horny, Lou is gruff, Rhoda is self-deprecating, Phyllis is pretentious.

She had some success on TV movies' and a whole bunch of Emmy nominations and a win for one of them. Nothing rose to the level of Ordinary People but she kept working. Even played Mary Todd Lincoln to acclaim in Gore Vidal's Lincoln. So she did make it as a dramatic actress (after all.)

She tried to get the lead in Misery. That would have been interesting. Mary really really against type.

I wonder why James L. Brooks didn't offer her Terms of Endearment.

She was too young to be believable as Debra Winger's mother.

R366. In 1980, Mary Tyler Moore received critical and commercial acclaim on Broadway appearing in "Who's Life is it Anyway?" For the gender reversal role normally played by a male, MTM won a special Tony for her performance. In 1987, She appeared on Broadway once again in the successful "Sweet Sue."

she was only two years younger than Shirley MacLaine r370

She went into the Betty Ford Center in 1985 or so (which shocked people.)

She may have missed some film opportunities post 1980 due to her drinking.

Can't really think what films she could have done in that time period.

The going back to sitcoms (which kept flopping) kind of ruined the film cred Ordinary People gave her. She should have held out and maybe got some of the roles people like Anne Bancroft (Agnes of God?) and Shirley got.

MTM women reunite on Hot in Cleveland.

[quote]You may not like the characters of Ted Baxter but EVERY male news broadcaster in a television series ever since has been written in imitation or response to that character.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't understand what all the bitching about Mary's post Ordinary People career is all about. She was never a very versatile actress, and she was into her middle forties by the early 1980s. Mary's career was an awesome run of twenty years - Dick Van Dyke Show through Ordinary People and Who's Life is it Anyway? - there was not much notable after that. But she still worked, and worked and worked $. Her career was pretty great!

WHOSE. WHOSE Life.

"You may not like the characters of Ted Baxter but EVERY male news broadcaster in a television series ever since has been written in imitation or response to that character."

George Putnam, the model for Ted Baxter. Even the speech pattern is similar.

[quote] Take off glasses, look concerned.

Jerry Dunphy was the model for Ted Baxter.

Ask Rose Marie all about Mary Tyler Moore.

R365, along with Michael Keaton, David Letterman was part of Mary’s troupe on one of her ill-fated variety shows.

R378, that guy reminds me nothing of Ted Baxter.

Mary's dream was to be a singer-dancer on a variety show :(

The Hot in Cleveland reunion was sad to watch, as Mary was obviously blind by then.

I know she hated wearing those falls in her hair the first two seasons, but I thought they were really complimentary and gave her a youthful appearance. By season 3, when she was sporting a shorter do, she looked like she had aged 5-7 years since season 2. Her hair in seasons 4 and especially 6 were really tragic.

She had a comedic comeback of sorts in the mid-90s with "Flirting with Disaster," playing against type as a "nagging Brooklyn yenta," to quote one of her many favorable reviews.

R374. That clip was sad. Mary should have stayed home.

Those of you who are complaining the show has dated are a bit mystifying to me.

Of COURSE it has dated--all TV shows date, every single one of them. Ricky Ricardo spanking Lucy over his knee at the end of several of the episodes of "I Love Lucy"? Darrin Stevens refusing to let Samantha on "Bewitched" use her powers to get the housework done? Almost every character on "Friends" and "Roseanne" being white?

R373

MTM as a nun in "Change of Habit" I can see, but as Mother Miriam Ruth (Agnes of God), no, just can't see how that would work.

Anne Bancroft deserved her Oscar nod (though lost to Geraldine Page), as Mother Miriam was the kind of street smart no BS taking "nun" many of us are familiar.

I just found out Gavin Macleod is a fundie nut. He eas so likable as Murray.

"MacLeod said it’s wrong to think of Hollywood as being “godless,” but he has felt “believers” are outnumbered. He relates in his book how he led Ted Knight, his ailing former co-star on “Mary Tyler Moore,” to Christ, asking him to repeat a prayer of commitment.

"In an interview, MacLeod said he still has the tract, or small prayer card, he used for 'one of the most meaningful experiences of my life, bringing my older best friend to Jesus.'l

Gavin Macleod turned to "god" when he decided to stop fucking around on his wife Patti. They re-married in 1985 after divorcing three years prior.

Why did Mary go back to wearing that flip hairstyle in the mid-70s? It was like she wanted to look like Laura Petrie again.

Fucking with men or women? (MacLeod.)

Women of course, R393

Thanks to this thread, I’m watching this. I watched it when I was a kid, and sometimes later in reruns, but I think I was too young then for it to become one of my favorites. I’m really enjoying watching it now, especially Ed Asner as Lou. He’s really hilarious. Then again, they are all brilliant. Except Murray. Hated him then, hate him now!

I had no idea Ed Asner was involved with Chicago theater and improv and was buddies with Mike Nichols.

Damn that Mary was a ho! I just watched an episode where her parents move to Minneapolis. She said she goes to a dinner party but then comes back at 8:30 in the morning. The parents ask where she and she refused to explain. Girl probably stopped by Planned Parenthood on her way home.

Mary was a slut for1970. Don't forget too, she lived in sin with her bf Angus Duncan for two years before they split. And she fucked her teacher Dan Whitfield right after her very first class with him. She had no values.

Since this thread is cooling down a bit, I'll start a side bar:

Why is 'Lou Grant' streamed nowhere? (Or is it?) Rumor has it that the show was cancelled because Asner was rattling cages with his political views. But that doesn't sound like a good enough explanation for never airing the show again. Asner himself got off the black list. Why not the show? It can't be quality or initial ratings. The show was good, at times very good, and the ratings were decent up to the point of cancellation.

I'm pretty sure it was Asner's politics. He was more trouble than he was worth. The final-season reruns were ranking in the top 10 that summer, so declining ratings were not the reason.

R399. The show's too topical. For those who didn't live through those times it seems quaint. All in the Family and Murphy Brown the same. Dan Quayle jokes don't get a big response these days.

I think AITF holds up really well, especially the first four seasons. There's an energy and electricity to those seasons that can't be rivaled. I always found MB way too pretentious for words, and it really doesn't hold up.

For those of us from that era, All in the Family certainly has nostalgic appeal. But for younger folk it's a historical piece, like a comedic Downton Abbey.

That's all understandable, but why not offering for streaming? They offer all sorts of TV shows by now. Just not Lou Grant.

Arlene Golanka as Betty Bowerchuck.

This thread prompted me to watch some episodes on Hulu during my free time. Last night I watched The Lars Affair. What a classic! Beautifully written and performed! Easily one of the best episodes of any show ever.

I skipped season one on Hulu, and now I’m almost up to end of S3. It’s funny, when I was a kid I thought Mary was boring and was more into the other characters. Now, it’s flipped—I prefer the more Mary-centric episodes. She’s so damn good. She’s always skinny, but towards the end of S3, she’s REALLY skinny.

I love the clothes. Some are awful examples of 70s fashion, but some of the outfits worn by Mary, Rhoda, and Phyliss are timeless.

I find the Mary/Rhoda/Phyllis-centric episodes the best. Once the latter two leave and the focus moves to the office, I don't find the show as interesting or funny. Asner has said he was happy when the girls left, because it gave him more to do, and resented a bit taking a backseat to the girls in the first few seasons. There are a lot of episodes where he and especially Gavin have just a few token lines. It must've been frustrating for such an accomplished actor like Asner.

I caught a number of episodes a few years ago when it was on MeTV. It was the first time I had watched it possibly since I was a kid. There really was a lot of references to adult activities that I did not catch as a kid. Very clever writing. If I remember correctly, Phyllis and Sue Ann are not in as many episodes as you would think, it just all of their appearances are memorable.

Mary's first apartment had to be the biggest efficiency ever. It had so much more character than the second apartment as well. I remember my Mom really not liking the second apartment - and neither did Mary at the end of the episode. Also, as mentioned earlier, it was not in a good neighborhood, esp. compared to the Lake of the Isles - Kenwood area where the triplex was.

Another thing I noticed when rewatching, was that Georgette did seem to be developing more of a bite in the last season after she married Ted. She did not seem to have as much tolerance for his buffonery. I wonder if they would have continued making some subtle changes to her demeanor if the show would have gone on another season.

I found Ted and Georgette beyond annoying. I actually liked Georgette when she first appeared. She was a very charming character, and that episode where Mary/Rhoda interfere when they're sick of seeing Ted treat her like shit is very poignant. But as their relationship grew, I found them both increasingly irritating.

Yes - Georgette was better in small doses, and the episodes where they featured her and Ted strongly always rang a bit false, because they tried to force some sort of growth on Ted that did not seem earned. He would act like a child most of the episode and then stammer some sort of apology at the end and they would try to show that meant he was really a loving boyfriend./husband/father. The next time you saw him he would be the same as he ever was. His character could be very funny, but usually not on the episodes that centered around him.

The writing was terrific those first 3 or 4 seasons, and the show had a real humanity about it. Once it switched focus to the office in season 5, it became much more sitcommy and the characters, even Mary, seemed snarkier. Yes, Betty White was great and stole just about every scene she was in, but there was something missing by season 5.

I also think Chuckles Bites the Dust is a funny episode. Not for the dumb sophomoric jokes in the office, but for Mary's funeral scene performance, combining holding back laughing and crying. A comedic genius moment. While a previous posted was making fun of Lucille Ball...it did recall Lucy's turn at combining drunk crying and fits of laughter at the dinner scene in Yours, Mine and Ours. That was an amazing bit of comic work on her part. It was something I don't think I've seen her done before.

Valerie Harper and Arlene Golonka were good friends in real life and were roommates in the '60s before Arlene was cast in "Mayberry RFD." I'm sure Valerie was instrumental in Arlene appearing in an episode of MTM.

Yes, I liked Arlene Golonka. I like that she kept the name "Golonka." She's conventionally pretty and blonde but didn't go crazy with plastic surgery trying to turn herself into something more mainstream.

I always confused Arlene Golonka with Constance Forslund.

Arlene Leanore Golonka (born January 23, 1936) , 85

Arlene Golonka on MTM (1971) as Betty Bowerchuck, who plays the daughter of Chuckles The Clown, who comes to WJM to see her father. She then meets Ted Baxter and is totally star struck in an episode called "Ted Over Heels."

Ms. Golonka was also in the "I Was a Single for WJM" episode. WJM's exposé on the booming singles bars business. I think Penny Marshall may have been in that episode along with Rhoda's real-life husband.

"I Was a Single for WJM"

With Arlene Golonka, Penny Marshall and Richard Schall (Valerie Harper's real-life husband at the time). Valerie took care of those close to her.

Thanks, R420. IIRC, Murray chickened out of going undercover as a single at the singles' bar. Why? Because his wife went crazy with jealousy and forbade the very virile and manly Murray from setting foot in the singles' bar.

Sadly, Murray's wife (Marie) was off-screen only. Yet another missed opportunity to feature the talented and elegant Miss Joyce Bulifant.

The great Mary Kay Place appeared as the character Sally Jo Hochkiss on an episode of The Mary Tyler Moore Show in 1975: "Murray in Love."

Mary Kay Place also wrote scripts for episodes of several TV situation comedies, including The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Phyllis and M*A*S*H, usually in collaboration with Linda Bloodworth-Thomason (who would later create Designing Women).

Both Mary Kay Place and Penny Marshall appeared in the 1975 "Murry in Love" MTM episode. I believe they played nurses and roommates who lived in the same building as Mary when she moved to her new apartment.

One pic for the road of lovely Mary Kay Place:

I thought Mary Kay Place's writing partner was Valerie Curtin.

R425. Valerie Curtin very well may have written with Mary Kay Place (in addition to Place writing with Linda Thomason) since Valerie was writing for The Mary Tyler Moore Show in the early '70s at the same time when Mary Kay Place wrote for MTM.

"Curtin began her writing career in the 1970s working on episodes of the television sitcom The Mary Tyler Moore Show:"

[quote] The writing was terrific

Speaking of the adjective "terrific", anyone else notice that characters on MTM used that word a lot, especially Murray? "Mare, that's terrific!"

Every time I watch the Veal Prince Orloff episode, I am always struck by how naturally hilarious Henry Winkler is. He is just one of those actors that's funny when he walks in a room. And brilliant directing of the scene where you can see everyone at the dining room table and Henry up in the background.

r423, see r123, and try to keep up.

And it's MURRAY, not Murry, you fat stupid whore.

Wow, r429, you sound unpleasant. I hope I never meet you in person. You seriously expect someone to read and memorize 428 posts in an internet forum?

r430 Are you new here?

Back to topic: I started watching the show based on this thread. Currently watching season 3. So much revolves around Mary and Rhoda, so it's hard to understand why the showrunners took the risk to break up his pair for creating a spin off that might just as well fail. They could have spin off Lou Grant at much lesser risk at that point - with equal benefits considering how well he was fleshed out already.

R432, in those days, spin-offs were very common and some of the spin-offs were hugely popular. The Jefferson and Good Times come to mind. These were probably calculated financial risks. In those days, people would actually watch TV commercials, too.

Remember when "The Jeffersons" spun off Marla Gibbs' Florence in "Checking In"? I was probably one of the four people who actually watched it. The show was a dud, lasting only a few episodes, and they moved her back to "The Jeffersons." "The Jeffersons" was hugely popular and very high rated for a few seasons around 79-81, I'm surprised they didn't try to do a spinoff with Mr. Bentley, or Lionel and Jenny when Mike Evans returned to the show.

R429. I am an MTM aficionado. And I am not fat!.

By the way, Mary Kay Place was also in the movie, "New York, New York," with Liza Minnelli and Robert DeNiro.

Why did Mary and Grant divorce? They made a very handsome power couple,

R436. Why Did Mary Tyler Moore and Grant Tinker Divorce?

Here's your answer:

First Joyce Bulifant appreciation, now we have Mary Kay Place appreciation.

R437, the story in your link - noted elsewhere in this thread - about how Mary got together with her last husband, “does acute loneliness count [as an emergency],” sounds so much like a line Mary Richards would have uttered.

Ed Asner was a lot thinner in S4. Woof.

r440=Sue Ann Nivens

I was skipping around seasons on YT the other night, and noticed a couple of continuity errors. Sometimes Lou's office has a window covered by blinds, and sometimes there's no window at all. In Rhoda's apartment, sometimes there are beads leading into her apartment, other times there's a door.

I think Rhoda's apartment was just 36 sqft anyway, wasn't it? She had space for a bed , a chair and a goldfish, and that was it.

R434, I remembered it especially because Florence had to go against a former colleague who was stealing tips. There was even a suggestion from the thief that Florence had become white because she was a manager.

Marla Gibbs's "Checking In" also featured DL fave Liz Torres. I'm surprised they never decided to spin off Ted and Georgette when MTM ended. I mean, a series centered around them would've been painful to watch, but the writers seemed to enjoy writing for them and I think they were fairly popular characters at the time. Instead Betty and Georgia teamed up for that dud "The Betty White Show" with John Hillerman after MTM ended.

John Amos looked so insanely handsome on MTM. They should've had Mary go there. I don't understand why they used him so sparingly, and his Gordy never even got a proper send-off.

Why were Mary and Rhoda even friends? Mary was positive, upbeat, friendly, and fairly self-confident. Rhoda was negative, joyless, not likeable, and had no self-esteem. Their friendship made zero sense. Now, Joanne Forbes would've made an appropriate best friend for Mary.

never watched those gal's shows. both had harpie female voices that even a parakeet would not imitate.

2 good 2 be 4got10. Look, you wrote it with the numbers.

Has anyone ever held a Veal Prince Orloff dinner party in honor of the show?

r447=Barbara Thorndyke

R450 We kind of did. None of us liked veal so we did a version with pork and had baked pears Alicia. We all watched that episode and a few others. Was a fun evening.

[quote] Has anyone ever held a Veal Prince Orloff dinner party in honor of the show?

And have to ask a guest to return some of the main course to the platter because there otherwise wouldn't be enough for the others?

Irene Tedrow appeared in every other TV show in the 1970s.

Why wasn't Marie at the veal prince orloff dinner party? Her not appearing was absolutely glaring. She could've sat at the little table. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why a successful show raking in the bucks couldn't afford to pay Joyce Bulifant to appear in an episode in which she was desperately needed?

They explained it . Marie was out of town per Murray.

Crap, whoever it was here who brought up how the characters say "terrific" all the time was right! Now I notice it every time. It's at least once per episode. I watched a s5 episode the other day and it was said at least a dozen times.

New drinking game? Take a shot every time a character says, "terrific"...

Boring

Nanette Fabray was so miscast as her mother. Yes, there is a slight facial resemblance, but Nanette just came off as too wacky and self-absorbed. And whose bright idea was it to give her a stupid name like Dottie? In season 1, Mary said her mother's name was Marge. You expected Mary's mother to be a little different. I can see why she didn't last beyond her original two-episode deal. Bill Quinn (Bob Newhart's FIL IRL) was very good as her father.

459 posts and no one's mentioned Rhoda's never-again-spoken-of sister Debbie?

^or her brother Arnold who's mentioned when Ida visits in season 2?

[quote]Mary's romantic-interest-of-the-week thing without any of them carrying forward to the next episode is kind of strange to me...I'll assume that they did this as an act of feminism to show that a woman's life doesn't have to center around a guy.

Wow, you really are slow on the uptake. Feminism was pretty much the entire point of the show and it's existence.

You're also pretty sexist for being bothered by this but not Jack Tripper or Seinfeld.

Did Mary ever date a Jewish guy? Asking for a friend.

I don’t recall that Mary Richards dated a Jew, R463, but MTM married one.

R463. Oh please, it was enough that Mary Richards was from Roseburg, Minnesota.

[quote]Did Mary ever date a Jewish guy? Asking for a friend.

She broke up her friendship with Mary Frann due to her love for Rhoda.

Leslie Jordan said Mary Frann was the biggest bitch he ever met. Imagine that sweet thing from Newhart being mean?

[quote]Imagine that sweet thing from Newhart being mean?

I always thought there was some underlying bitchiness under Joanna's sweetness and sweaters.

[quote]They explained it . Marie was out of town per Murray.

In addition to be incredibly loud and annoying, Joyce Bulifant would sneak into the dressing rooms and steal from the women's purses...

then she'd take a giant dump in the purse to attempt to hide the theft

Joyce B. stole every scene she was in. Was Mary jealous of Joyce? Is that why Joyce only made limited appearances throughout the show's run? Imagine how great a "Marie" spinoff would've been rather than that lame "Rhoda" and DOA "Phyllis"?

Joyce Bulifant was supposed to be Carol Brady until Flo Henderson suddenly became available.

Mary's weight is criticized in this thread and attributed to alcoholism. I've now seen a bunch of interviews she gave from the 80s through the end of her life and in all of them she discusses having been diagnosed with type 2 ("juvenile") diabetes in her 30s while making the MTM show, and it sounds like she had to quit drinking at that time. In all the interviews, she talks about raising funds for a juvenile diabetes foundation and she is very knowledgeable.

I also saw an archival Television Foundation interview with an old Dick Van Dyke in which he remembers time with Mary as a young, new actress, and he said that she was presently in a state of very failing health from diabetes, including near blindness.

People with type 2 diabetes tend to be dangerously underweight because of their insulin imbalance and it's challenging for them to keep weight on. I recall a daytime talk show episode in the 90s about eating disorders that showed a teen girl with type 2 diabetes who refused to take insulin because without it, she was naturally emaciated, and she didn't want to be "fat" by being a healthy weight. They told her she was killing herself and was going to die in an agonizing, slow way that would disable her and slowly kill her organs and she was fine with that.

Mary was actually diagnosed with diabetes in 1969, while the MTM show was in development, after having a miscarriage.

She wrote about it in her book "After All". IIRC, correctly she developed symptoms and doctors were stunned that she was even conscious given her extent of her uncontrolled blood sugar measurements.

She wrote that her doctor told her data/experience would be the basis for further clinic study of the disease, and her case was written about in a medical journal, with her referred to only as an America woman "Mary Tinker", her married name at the time as the wife of Grant Tinker.

Although Mary was disciplined about her diet and exercise, especially after she gave up cigarettes and alcohol - her diabetes was severe and difficult to manage. She was what is sometimes called a "brittle diabetic", and she suffered amputations and some blindness later in life, in spite of her access to the best medical care.

R473, that's horrible.

I'd be a little crabby hell, a lot crabby if that happened to me.

Contrary to her Mary Richards image, MTM could be quite cold and aloof in her personal life - an aspect of her personality Robert Redford saw and brilliantly helped her to bring to the Beth Jarret character in "Ordinary People".

Mary's mother Marge was an alcoholic who couldn't function very well as a mother during much of Mary's childhood. Mary's father was a cold and distant man, who struggle to find a connection with his daughter.

Mary's home life during her teen years was so dysfunctional, she bounced between sleeping on the sofa in her parent's living room, and more often, living with her maternal aunt and grandmother.

Given her background, it's not surprising Mary sought older father-type figures in her first husband Richard Meeker and in her second husband, the brilliant but controlling Grant Tinker.

Remarkably, Mary gave credit to Carl Reiner of the "Dick Van Dyke Show" for giving her the type of encouragement and approval she had so desperately missed in her childhood and in helping develop one of her first healthy paternal-type relationships that put her on the path toward healing some of those childhood wounds.

Mary admitted she drank throughout her MTM Show years. She claimed she did not drink during work hours, only after quitting time.

I don't think Mary trusted very easily - especially other women - she had a notoriously difficult relationship with Rose Marie on the DvD show, although they repaired that relationship in later years.

In reading Mary's autobiographies and Valerie Harper's autobiography, I got the sense that Valerie charmed Mary in early meetings and auditions. She marveled at Mary's figure on their first meeting, being able to look so stunning in white pants with the blouse tucked in.

Valerie was naturally beautiful and a dancer, but she had a gained a lot of weight from a complicated bout of Hepatitis. And even at her fittest Valerie tended to have a stockier Italian build than Mary who was more of a tall thin ectomorph.

Whatever, Valerie said or did during those first meetings - she won Mary over - Mary trusted Valerie and Grant Tinker saw Valerie's talent. Mary and Valerie developed a genuine friendship over the course of the series and for many decades after.

This interview with an older Mary is really sweet. She's being interviewed by a teen boy, and throughout, it's easy to see how supportive and thoughtful she is in consideration of him. She encourages him, she's very open about her life, and she seems like a really wonderful, authentic person.

Everyone is flawed, but I don't believe for a second that she was a 'difficult' monster. I've now watched a lot of interviews with her former colleagues, from costars to producers and directors, and all of them say she was a consummate professional on set and also very generous with actors, often changing things around on set to make her costars more comfortable or even to give them more of a featured position to improve the show while cutting herself out of the frame. She seems like she was sort of like Lucille Ball in the sense of being 100 percent dedicated to making great entertainment, but better liked than Lucille was.

Also, Valerie said in an interview when she was older (with the TV Foundation, I think) that she was a stage actor who had never done television before, and Mary was always teaching her while supporting her and while watching out for the quality of the show. She said in an early episode, she could not get the blocking right and was moving around too much, and so when it came time to record the show, Mary adjusted herself, leaning awkwardly in one direction so that she would be out of the frame and Valerie could be fully seen. Valerie said she was embarrassed that she couldn't get it right and Mary was totally supportive telling her she would learn, it just takes experience. I mean, cmon, how many people are treated like that on TV sets?

I love the MTM series, but in real life, Mary seemed really insecure around other women. She's married to the boss, how much more security do you need? She should have been more gracious, but that was probably not possible for her.

Ok, now I'm just getting annoyed at how much they all say "terrific".

[quote]Wow, you really are slow on the uptake. Feminism was pretty much the entire point of the show and it's existence.

[quote] You're also pretty sexist for being bothered by this but not Jack Tripper or Seinfeld.

Better to be slow on the uptake and/or sexist than be a cunt.

Why the fuck was Georgia Engel in the final scene? She didn't work in the news room! If she was there, then why didn't the delightful Joyce Bulifant appear? Her absence in the final episode was glaring, and brought down the quality of an otherwise satisfying finale. In hindsight, Joyce was a pretty integral piece of the series.

Joyce Bulifant was never a regular, only an occasional guest star. Her only connection to the rest of the cast was that she was Murray's wife.

Georgia Engel was a regular on the show. Georgette was not only Ted Baxter's wife, but she was also a very close friend of both Rhoda Morgenstern and then Mary Richards. After Rhoda returned to New York City, Georgette was Mary's best friend in Minneapolis.

OP, just to make sure after all this time, since when you started the thread you were concerned about all MTM's "boyfriends," what the situation actually was.

Mary was a whore posing as a high-tone escort.

But surely you figured that out by now.

I saw the one last night where Phyllis gets her real estate license. When she asked the obscene phone caller if he "rented or owned his own home" was fall on the floor hilarious!

R472, that's TYPE 1 (ONE) DIABETES, Not Type 2.

Type 1 Diabetes is an autoimmune disease. Mary Tyler Moore had Type 1 Diabetes

"Why did Mary and Grant (Tinker) divorce? They made a very handsome power couple"

I read in the NYT that Mary wrote that she and Grant Tinker never saw each other naked during the entire course of their marriage. She was that shy/repressed/damaged. I think it's safe to say none of Mary's marriages were passion fests, and it comes through in her portrayal of Mary Richards.

After all of this analyzing of the Mary-Rhoda friendship, I'd say, look - some people, some characters, just click. Even if you can't understand why. In real life it's wonderful thing - having an instant platonic friend because there's something that clicks.

Mary and Joanne Forbes looked like bookends, and made for a more realistic friendship than Mary and Rhoda. I would like to have seen the Mary/Joanne friendship develop. Ted flirted with Joanne, so they could've become involved romantically, creating opportunity for Joanne to interact plausibly with the folks in the newsroom, rather than Rhoda's awkward, nonsensical encounters with them.

^ Phyllis Lindstrom

R488, Joanne Forbes is BORNING. Anti-Semitism is only thing not boring about Joanne Forbes.

What is BORNING?

BORNING is a condition where you refuse to date Ted Baxter.

R479, how so?

Clearly, Mary had no problem surrounding herself with talented women. Valerie was more beautiful; she and Cloris AND Betty had more 'fun' roles with Mary being the straight lady.

But she embraced them and the show was so strong as a result.

In the interview above, Mary's being really good with this kid; she's treating him like a pro, but still being sweet with him.

[quote] Phyllis: For the past two years I've been teaching a course, showing mothers how to relate to their children.

[quote] Mary: Phyllis, isn't that a ceramics course you teach?

[quote] Phyllis: They *think* it's a ceramics class.

NEVER WATCHED A SHOW

FOUND HER OBNOXIOUS AND A HACK

R35. Comedy gold, indeed. Hysterical.

R54. Funny episode.

I loved Betty White as Sue Ann Nivens. So damn funny. But in my opinion, it all fell flat when Betty played Rose on the Golden Girls. I could never get into that character. But then, Designing Women was far away better than the Golden Girls anyway, in my opinion.

Phyllis and Lars going broke during the recession, and Phyllis has to go out and get a job. Friggin hilarious.

Phyllis to Mary: "In a recession, dermatologists are the first to get hit. If people need brain surgery, no matter how trivial, they somehow find the money. But if people get a rash, they just scratch until times get better."

Starts at the 8:52 minute mark.

Mary Tyler Moore loved that she had top talent and great characters because it was GREAT FOR THE SHOW. She wasn't "jealous" of the other women. Mary knew she was the straight man, and her show excelled with Rhoda, Phyllis and Sue Ann, not to mention the great male characters like Lou, Murray and Ted. THAT'S why it lasted, that's why we're still talking about it.

Frankly, I think its iconic status can partly be attributed to Joyce Bulifant. She took the minimally appearing Marie Slaughter, which could have been a thankless character, and turned her into a memorable character. She and Gavin were gold together. If Brooks and Burns had been smart, they would've loosened the purse strings and offered Joyce the world to appear more often. She stole every episode she was in, which might've pissed off Mary. Come to think of it, maybe that's why she wasn't featured more; Mary felt threatened by her.

^ Soooooo funny

It's a gift from the merciful gods that Ted and Georgette were never spun off. Can you imagine how much more unbearable they'd be as the focus of their own series?

r500 Don't have to imagine it.

I liked Georgia Engel when she first came on. I thought Georgette was a very charming character. But once she and Ted became an item and she became Mary's talk-to, she became insufferable.