Bette Davis on Judy Garland

Davis was a broad, a dame. And a tough one. She was a grown woman when she started out and didn't let anyone get over on her. Garland started out as a kid, and was a quivering mess from that early age mainly due to all the dope the studio made her take. Poor Judy never had a chance. Monroe, I feel, was also an emotional basket case and lacked maturity so she was another easy one for the studios to take advantage of.

Those bitter old cunts.

Bette Davis was a huge talent but she was far stronger as a person than our dear Judy. Judy was highly strung, very sensitive, and was trampled on by studio brass from the time she was 13. Had Judy had a normal childhood and only come to the studio as an adult, it might have been very different for her. I like that Davis refers to Judy as "Miss Garland." It shows a great deal of respect. "Talent like that doesn't come around very often." Indeed, it does not.

Bette Davis had her demons, but she was right about a lot of things. Even the so-called feud between her and Joan Crawford was greatly exaggerated. They had a solid professional respect for one another. Faye Dunaway on the other hand...let's just say Bette was right to call her out.

Bette respected talent and professionalism. She was a pro.

Judy and Marilyn were mentally ill, Bette was not. End of story

What an intelligent woman. The entire Dick Cavett interview is on Youtube and it's wonderful.

I was a freshman or sophomore in college and I had the opportunity to see Bette Davis accept a small award by a student organization on campus, UCLA. She was gracious to attend in person in a sparsely filled multi-purpose auditorium in the student union building. This was pre-stroke BD, probably '81 or so. She was very down to earth, honest. What struck me the most was that when asked about her feud with Joan Crawford, she said it was overblown. The press showed up daily at the set of "Baby Jane" to get dirt and report on fighting. The two actresses eventually hung a sign outside that said, "Sorry, we're getting along." They were not friends and had different styles, but BD made clear to praise Joan Crawford's work ethic and consummate professionalism. On this point they had nothing but respect for each other. At the time of this event, Crawford had been dead for four or five years and Davis could have said anything about her that would have tarnished her character - but she didn't. There was no press around, just students. I went away with renewed respect for Bette Davis' honesty and straightforwardness.

Regarding mentions of Marilyn Monroe, I always felt a great sympathy and interest in Judy while hearing about Monroe leaves me bored and unmoved. Despite the latter being more universally beloved. It's funny how some peoples' travails speak to us while others don't.

Monroe seems more annoying than Garland to me. At least when Garland wanted to, she could deliver a performance like nothing you'd ever seen. I was never all that impressed with Monroe's talent. She was charming in some roles and, of course, quite beautiful but she never really moved me. I always wonder why so many people think of her death as some great tragedy as if she'd go on to win dozens of Oscars and become some respected character actress by the time she was 50.

Garland clearly had much more talent. Even when her voice was ragged, she didn't phone it in and seemed to be tapping into something almost supernatural.

What a great personality. There are no great personalities now. Just idiot influencers and generic Youtube twits. Very sad.

Sorry, but Judy was the 60s Whitney. She had it all and threw it away for drugs.

That Cavett interview is truly the best movie star interview of all time, rivalled only by Cavett's interview with Katharine Hepburn. Though Bette's is really far superior. She appears so intelligent, sensitive, respectful and engaging, it's very hard for me to understand how she could have ever been considered difficult.

She was strong and a perfectionist, not difficult. Hepburn was an elitist snob

This is the complete Davis/Cavett interview. She was so fiercely intelligent and quick-witted. This is such an great interview.

She was a very self-confident person, but boy, she really fidgets with those glasses!

Davis was always nervous and fidgety. I wonder if that was really water in that glass.

Garland didn't have the advantage of a New England childhood, she was raised in show business. Davis was 18 when she decided to be an actress, by the time Garland was 18 she had made 8 films.

Thank you r15!!

Her grammar was interesting.

There's no real reason to compare Monroe and Garland, they had different kinds of talents and were from different entertainment eras.

I think a lot of people these days feel badly for the starlets of the 1950s and 1960s, because they were hired for their looks and rarely given anything substantial to work with, nor given the support that leading men and character actors enjoyed. The era of strong women movie stars was over, and we weren't getting Mildred Pierce anymore, we were getting I Want to Live! or a Douglas Sirk, if we were lucky. Maybe a Tennessee Williams adaptation.

Watch Marilyn in Bus Stop or The Misfits and you can see there's more to her than ditzy camp, and I can understand people thinking "what if"?

Bette complained forever about never knowing what to do with her hands, she recognized the problem and frequently had a handkerchief to fuss with, or would wring her hands. Once you realize it, you notice her doing it constantly.

[R21] I appreciate your intelligent post but Garland and Monroe actually were of the same era, Garland having been born in 1922 and Monroe in 1926. That said, they were apples and oranges in terms of type and talent.

But Judy Garland had been working a couple of years before Marilyn Monroe was born.

[R24] Yes, but their lives were contemporaneous, even if Judy was nearly finished in films by 1953 (her STAR IS BORN came out '54), the year Marilyn broke through as a star in Niagara. Judy was HUGE in the concert world, TV and Las Vegas throughout the 1950's, so she must have crossed paths with Marilyn. It's amusing to imagine Judy and Marilyn co-starring in a movie with their equally dysfunctional working habits. It's a toss up who'd be considered the worst one - Judy was as messy and unprofessional at the end of her MGM years and Marilyn was at the end of her Fox years.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[R26] Marilyn looks at her boozy worst in that picture - even her hair looks bad. The article reads like a campy crock of B.S. - very skeptical.

Bette Davis was also an alcoholic, but she was a functional one.

R28 beat me to it, although like nemesis Crawford, she was less and less functional as time went on.

Don't kid yourself, R14. Davis was plenty difficult. I said difficult, not insane like Monroe.

To me at least, Judy is more likeable than Marilyn. But maybe that's because she essentially grew up on film, and her downfall was spread out over decades. Her endearing nature made it all the more tragic.

I've mentioned this on other threads, but I've always thought Judy struggled with borderline personality disorder (although it wasn't a thing then).

And, of course, she was infinitely more talented than Marilyn.

Davis's alcoholism never interfered with her work as far as I know, even in her later career, but in private life her drinking caused a lot of problems. Her drinking went off the chain during her ten-year marriage to Gary Merrill, which lasted for the entire 1950s. They did nothing but drink and fight the whole time and she remained a very heavy drinker for the rest of her life. It also aged her terribly. There are many stories of Davis getting drunk and being obnoxious at social events.

I honestly think Bette suffered for being smarter than most everyone else she dealt with and that's what made her so ornery. And as a woman, she was constantly being told by stupid men what she couldn't do, at least for the first 30 or 40 years of her life.

I don't get the point of comparing Garland and Monroe, truly apples to oranges.

That's true r32. Bette Davis was a highly intelligent woman in an era where that wasn't really acceptable.

Yes, Bette was a heavy drinker and I supposed you could call her an alcoholic but it never impacted her work and she tempered her drinking as she got older and ran into health problems. The last few years of her life she would only have a wine spritzer or two. She didn't have the shakes, she didn't drink all day, she didn't do detox and to my knowledge there isn't a single piece of film in which she appears to be drunk (unlike Crawford). Bette held it together - except at private parties and certain restaurants where she created scenes with Gary Merrill.

[R31] I just realized that I essentially restated the contents of your post - sorry. You put it more succinctly.

One truth gained from the death of Judy Garland- never marry your dealer.

[quote] she tempered her drinking as she got older and ran into health problems. The last few years of her life she would only have a wine spritzer or two.

She also gave up the unfiltered Lucky Strikes for low-tar filtered Vantages.

Dick Cavett, I doubt his type of intelligent interviews would find a tv slot today. I use to watch him and also, if anyone remembers David Susskind with his never ending interview show. It really had no late evening time limit. Today's simple-minded viewers want yelling and incoherent babble (The View), or boozed up gossip.

^^^^

Despite all the crap about her being "pushed" into show business it was obvious from the time she was a small child that Judy Garland was born to be a performer. As a toddler (I think she was three) she was brought onstage where she warbled "Jingle Bells." It was a casual thing; she was cute and it was just an attempt to charm the audience. She sang it again and again; she had to be dragged away from the stage! A ham, at that age. So all this garbage about poor little Judy Garland being "forced" or "pushed" into show business by her evil mother is a lot of bullshit. From the time she was a child, she wanted to be a star.

[quote] it was obvious from the time she was a small child that Judy Garland was born to be a performer. As a toddler (I think she was three) she was brought onstage where she warbled "Jingle Bells."

To paraphrase Bette, she said something like, "I didn't get into acting to find myself - I got into acting because it was thrilling." She was very smart and very confident - in her talent and intellect alone. In other areas Bette was very insecure.

I remember reading that Gary Merrill would start his day drinking martinis in a leopard print speedo, then chase the maid around the house. I wonder what the problem was?

Gary Merrill was a very strange man, and violent. He would frequently smack Bette around and was very cruel to her. He would be in jail for domestic violence today, but those were different times.

Amazing what people used to be able to get away with.

[B44] Bette gave as good as she got. No imbalance there. She was as likely to clobber him as the other way around. That's how Bette operated.

And then there is B.D.

BD was just rotten to the core from the beginning.

Gary Merrill used to wear a skirt around Portland and Cape Elizabeth. He said it was cooler in the summer. There are a lot of stories but now they're fading out and their home was razed some time ago. It was in a nice, still unspoiled area in Cape Elizabeth. I once saw Bette when I was a kid do her one-woman show at Symphony Hall in Boston. It was a great experience, she was very funny, and interesting, it was a packed house just to see this woman and see film clips and an interview. She had a ton of charisma. There were old school chums there, one woman said "you never signed my yearbook" and Bette came down to the edge of the stage and signed it.

[quote]There are a lot of stories but now they're fading out

Yes, people who knew them in the Maine years would be quite elderly now.

Amazing that her daughter B. D., who Bette called "the love of my life" turned out to be so insane. Really, she is off her rocker; in one of her books she claimed that babies are sacrificed on Halloween, Harry Potter indoctrinates children into the occult and the Antichrist is promoting his agenda of homosexuality aggressively.

BD and her useless husband were 100% supported by Bette for many years, at an upper-middle class level. Bette paid for everything because BD and her husband didn't like to work for a living. Of course BD never mentioned that little fact.

Who? Was she that god awful drag queen who did those impressions of Yoda during lunch breaks on my tour de force television movie “Amy”? Talk about old lady smell!

We've always had freaks like r40 on DL, yet it will always astonish me that there really are people who think toddler girls are evil scheming cunt bitch whores.

I watched the entire one-hour interview, it was wonderful.

[quote]Bette respected talent and professionalism. She was a pro.

She did. That's why she's happy to talk about Judy's talent and sharing the same background as Katherine but notice she never directly references Marilyn because she didn't like her and made her ner:

[quote]“All About Eve” was a triumph forged in a crucible of rancor and suspicion. Bette Davis bludgeoned the actress who played her onscreen confidant, Celeste Holm, as the “one bitch in the cast,” before adding cattily that George Sanders was also a “bitch” (she’d learned he was bisexual through Henry Fonda), [bold]then circling back for a swipe at Marilyn Monroe: “That blonde little slut couldn’t act her way out of a paper bag.”[/bold] Monroe, who sobbed and vomited after shooting both her scenes with Davis, shot back: “That woman hates every female who can walk. She’s a mean old broad.”

Celeste Holm said Bette's and Gary Merrill's romantic relationship was especially unpleasant because it consisted of them sitting around set, talking about and mocking other castmembers. Like someone would walk past and they'd whisper then laugh and it would be obvious they were laughing at them.

[quote]R2 She was a grown woman when she started out and didn't let anyone get over on her.

I believe she began acting in theater as a teen... and she was a virgin till she married in her mid 20s. Just to put in perspective how “grown” she was during her early Hollywood years. (She also lived with her mother and sister forever.)

Bette's mother and sister were constant drains on her emotionally as well as financially. She supported both of them for the rest of their lives. Bette could've been a very wealthy woman if it weren't for her constant support of her family.

[quote] Celeste Holm said Bette's and Gary Merrill's romantic relationship was especially unpleasant because it consisted of them sitting around set, talking about and mocking other castmembers. Like someone would walk past and they'd whisper then laugh and it would be obvious they were laughing at them.

Shit! Manners!

Bette being homophobic (or, I guess, biphobic) against George Sanders and calling Marilyn Monroe a "slut" doesn't seem to be in character.

The quotes come from a Vanity Fair article in April 1999, full of second-hand accounts and bitchy interviews from co-stars. I mean, Joan Collins is reported as saying she heard Marilyn call Bette a "mean old broad." And the bit about her calling Sanders a "bitch" because she was homophobic is entirely the author's presumption.

I know Bette was a real handful and a drinker, but "Henry Fonda told her George Sanders was bi, so she hated him and called him a bitch" just seems ridiculous on the surface. Like Bette had never worked with a gay or bisexual actor before? Half of her leading men in the early Warner Bros movies were gay.

[quote]Half of her leading men in the early Warner Bros movies were gay.

They were all straight until they had to kiss her.

How can I link this thread to the one titled "How To Tell When You're An Eldergay" ?

How is it this site has the worst search function ever? It's like something from 25 years ago. But that's giving it too much credit.

I'm with r59.

Bette was no angel, but those "quotes" sound entirely made up.

To be fair, George Sanders WAS a bitch.

I just use Google r62

R59, at the time, people who were gay friendly would commonly throw gay slurs around. Crawford would refer to gays as "fags" with abandon, no offense intended.

"Bette could've been a very wealthy woman if it weren't for her constant support of her family."

Isn't that true with 90% of celebrities?

What a sour review at the link at R55. Younger person’s perspective I guess. No fun.

"We've always had freaks like [R40] on DL, yet it will always astonish me that there really are people who think toddler girls are evil scheming cunt bitch whores."

Who said that 3 year old Judy Garland was a "scheming cunt bitch whore?" Learn to read, hon.

Bette and Liza

^ I'd loooove to know what Bette thought during THAT conversation....

I’ve been making it a point to watch as many classic films as I can, and those starring Bette Davis are fascinating. None of them have been good (Now, Voyager, Of Human Bondage, The Little Foxes), but she’s amazing in all of them.

How can you say Now Voyager or The Little Foxes weren't good?

r71, what classic films do you like?

R71 , do you have Asperger's ?

I’m sorry, but the plot for Now, Voyager was so fucking ridiculous, I was laughing bout loud. Bette was fantastic, and so we’re the actresses who played her mother and the housekeeper. But the subplot with the little girl was just creepy...even though it was played as sentimental. As for The Little Foxes, it was entertaining enough (again, Bette, fantastic), but it’s fatal flaw was not having a single likable character...I found myself watching just to see Bette.

R73, of the recent classic films I’ve seen, I loved Sunset Boulevard, My Man Godfrey, The 400 Blows, Casablanca, His Girl Friday, Nosferatu, Modern Times, and Safety Last.

Maybe I’m being so critical because All About Eve is one of my top 5 favorite movies of all time.

She enjoyed the divine accompaniment of Claude Rains in Now Voyager and Mr. Skeffington, then graciously allowed him to steal the show in Deception. He must have needed it after being in Notorious. Somehow, I feel like he is still on that staircase! Claude Rains as Alex Hollenius rivals Addison DeWitt, there I said it!

r75, if you watched The Little Foxes and didn't find Patricia Collinge as Birdie and Teresa Wright as Alexandra likable, you must have no heart. I also think Herbert Marshall is wonderful as Bette's doomed husband Horace.

That’s fair. I did feel sorry for Birdie (her husband and son were horrible)...but I thought Xan was a tad obnoxious, even if she did have a fundamentally good heart. She treated David like crap, yet got jealous when he didn’t give her attention.

Herbert Marshall was always a wonderful presence. He was in a lot of really great movies. My roomie and I think he is the silver screen’s greatest cuckold, and all that radiation poisoning and such............why am I writing this ??? He lost a leg, let’s celebrate him!!!

[quote]but it’s fatal flaw was not having a single likable character.

There is no flaw in not having a likable character. Some of the best movies have characters who are all totally unsympathetic.

Marilyn and Judy were friends. I have read in several biographies that Judy was very shaken by Monroe's premature death, no doubt seeing it as prescient of her own premature death only a few years later.

Now, Voyager does kind of fall apart after Charlotte's mother dies. She was such a strong villain that, once she's gone, you feel like the movie should just go ahead and wrap up and yet it keeps going.

I love Bette Davis and Katharine Hepburn, but I am confused by their frequent comments that they are stronger than most because of their 'New England upbringing.'

Besides the colder weather, what is it about New England that they believe made them stronger than others? Has New England changed tremendously over the past 100 years in that way? Most people I know from New England grew up at least relatively well to do and they honestly seem pretty spoiled and are not people I'd consider to be the strongest among most groups. They do tend to be more forthright and bold, less diplomatic than people from other areas.

I am from the DC area and people from the Northeast and the South flock here and so I've known a lot of people from both regions. To generalize them, people who come here from the south mostly grew up poorer and are pretty ambitious and eager, and a lot of people I've worked with from New England are snobbish, inherited a lot and pretty entitled seeming even though they do work hard and are well educated.

"I was a strong person. I had no reason to throw it away with dope, or pills, or alcohol."

FACT CHECK: Bette was an alcoholic. Yes, she was able to function better (because she wasn't mentally ill), but she has no business looking down her nose at addicts.

[quote]Besides the colder weather, what is it about New England that they believe made them stronger than others? Has New England changed tremendously over the past 100 years in that way?

People usually mean the so-called Puritan Work Ethic. "Buck up and get things done" type of pragmatism.

R85 Isn't that common in the Midwest, too? People I've met from Iowa never stop working. My dad is also like that, as were all his siblings and his parents, and he's from NC.

(I am not like that, a lazy, comfortable DC person.)

Judy Garland was a creation of the studio system. The wholesome and lovable girl next door. But in real life she was, as she herself put it, “a singing piece of meat”. Francis Gumm was just a little girl who came from a loving, yet troubled family, who tossed her into the lion’s den. She was talked down to and made to feel ugly in a world where beauty is paramount. It can’t be a good feeling to be referred to as “hunchback”, especially when you are an insecure teen. They made her take drugs to stay thin and they even starved her. She was so used and abused that it’s no wonder she was a dumpster fire in adulthood. It’s a wonder she didn’t die sooner.

I've read many accounts of Judy Garland constantly being told she was ugly by studio executives and I just don't see it at all. I've always thought that she was very pretty as a young woman.

Then there was Tallulah, if one is looking for complex, controversial, and fascination.

While Judy was certainly pretty (though the photo at r88 is somewhat retouched, look at the candids) , she was not in the league of her MGM contemporaries confronting her daily on the lot and in the makeup room: Ava Gardner, Hedy Lamarr and Lana Turner and the teenage Elizabeth Taylor. You'll note that after Ziegfeld Girl in 1940, she was never cast with a great beauty in any of her MGM films (excluding those all-star MGM revues like Words & Music).

MGM tried to glamorize Garland in the early 40s. She probably looks her best in Presenting Lily Mars, when she is actually quite sexy. But like June Allyson, MGM wanted Garland as the girl next door. It obviously bothered Garland that she wasn't as pretty as Lana Turner, much as it clearly bothered Streisand that she wasn't as pretty as Jessica Lange. But they both had a gift that even the prettiest would give their eye teeth for: that voice.

New Englanders like Bette and Kate referring to their disciplined upbringing and work ethic was a tradition going back to the original 13 states when the northeast of America truly was a more difficult place to live, mostly because of the weather. The Midwest didn't stand as a a comparison back then because no one civilized lived there.

Thanks r92.

I am kind of fascinated by New England (as a Midwesterner). I've lived here for five years and it still remains somewhat enigmatic to me. I've spoken to people who've lived here for 20, 30 years, not New Englanders, who still feel like outsiders.

Fabulous interview, Davis was so sharp and intelligent. You don't see this kind of intellect in celebrities anymore.

But god, the booze and cigarettes really did a number on her looks. She was only 63 here but looked quite a bit older.