Massive protests erupt across Russia

LOL.

This is all part of Trump's plan!!

The young people want change.

The text in the image above reads (in part): Leave your phone “on password” or preferably at home; don’t bring your passport; if worst comes to worst tell them you’re under 18; wear glasses (eye protection); wear masks; bring milk (against tear gas); hide all distinguishing features (tattoos, colored hair); wear comfortable shoes in case you have to run.

They’re not messing around.

Protesting in -58 degrees Fahrenheit.

The Russian Spring

Payback for the Capitol.

Hold on, fellas

Good for them.

Call me a pessimist but I sadly don't see this achieving any change.

Probably not, R9, but it has to at least put a scare into Putin -- maybe he'll start focusing more on his own country than the U.S. and Europe.

r10 this summer's protest didn't move Trump one bit and they were much larger. Hong Kong's protests were absolutely massive and their government just shrugged its shoulders and waited for them to burn themselves out. Protests really don't work to move leaders. They are meant to move the people on the sidelines.

Unfortunately only riots seem to work.

Aren't there rumors of Putin gone this year? The timing of these protests is interesting.

Maybe they'll start rioting in Moscow and St. Petersburg?

Russian expert Tom Nichols:

That "Putin's Palace" video was a gut-punch to the regime. I said a while back: If you want to hurt this regime, you're going have to make it personal with Putin, because it's the only thing he cares about.

r15 he sounds like Trump. How did that video move the needle? Even I as an American knew about that architectural monstrocity. How the hell could Russians not know about this massive palace that was built years ago?

These protestors have guts, I wouldn't mess with Russian police.

Incredibly brave.

It's time to send Putin to the guillotine!

[quote]How did that video move the needle?

CNN's Bianna Golodryga (born in Russia):

70 million people have viewed ⁦@navalny⁩’s expose on Putin’s palace since it was released earlier this week.

Listening to protesters today: this was the catalyst that pushed them to the streets. “Enough is enough” is their message.

R3 Those kids have never known any leader other than Putin their whole lives.

When that piece of shit croaks from some horrible disease it will be a great day for planet earth.

Amazing to watch but also reinforces my utter contempt for the Jan 6 terrorist trumpers and their treasonous enablers. Look at the thousands of Russians literally risking their lives to rise up against a truly despicable authoritarian regime. Meanwhile a couple of thousand feral QAnon lunatics attacked and damaged the most sacred institution of our democracy because they thought it would help the fascist conman stayed in power.

The Guardian's take.

"When that piece of shit croaks from some horrible disease it will be a great day for planet earth."

There have been rumors that Putin has early stage Parkinson's and his family is pressing him to step back. I doubt it, but we shall see. I agree with the idea that the way to weaken him it is to go after him personally, especially his money.

I watched the documentary Putin's Palace, and it was fascinating. He's a career civil servant, yet he's become one of the world's richest men. It's sickening.

Also, in addition to being smart and attractive, Nalvany is quite clever.

I'd love to see the anti-Putin crowd in Russia set the whole country on fire. They desperately need to start purging the politically corrupted from this earth.

[Quote]How the hell could Russians not know about this massive palace that was built years ago?

Navalny has been posting drone footage of Russian politicians country estates and palatial homes for a while now. I think it included Putin's palace but there were no interior shots.

I've posted shitty things here about Russia and Russians to piss off the trolls, but I sincerely hope they can take their country back.

[quote] They desperately need to start purging the politically corrupted from this earth.

So do we.

Lobbyists, the Murdochs, the Kochs, the Mercers, the Trumps, sports team owners, Erik Prince, Betsy DeVos, other billionaires. Tax, tax, tax these bastards. They have no right to capture our country’s economy & stash it offshore.

About time Russians quit being pussies.

pray or send out positive thoughts for them. Think about what we went thru with Trump. They have it 1,000x's worse.

Here's the movie that led to the protests (has English subtitles).

[quote]if worst comes to worst tell them you’re under 18

GOT IT!

The danger is that when Putin dies he will leave a vacuum only a Putin loyalist can fill since no Putin opponent has the power and means to fill the void that quick. It wouldn't just require a massive civil unrest but someone (aka a Trojan Horse) who managed to rise high in the ranks of Putin's inner circle to take over Putin's established power structure and basically get rid of every Putin loyalist before they figure out what's going on.

I'm surprised Tik Tok is even allowed in Russia.

Navalny is very handsome and brave. After being poisoned by Putin, he comes back to Russia! I would seek political asylum in Germany.

Yes, he’s quite brave. And he spent his convalescent period after the poisoning, working on the investigation into Putin’s corruption. I try to be sensitive toward refugees and migrants who flee their countries, but hopefully Nalvany encourages people around the world to seek positive change in their countries, even if it comes at a personal cost.

I wonder what it's like to give up your life for a cause. Dude knows he's going to eventually end up dead soon but he just keeps going.

Some Russians I met while teaching ESL were very fatalistic. Maybe he's accepted that his role is preordained?

I admire people who have the courage to stand up to a broken system that can't be fixed because the elections are rigged.

Let's airdrop the MAGAts right in the middle of Moscow.

I am only 1/3 of the way thru that movie but as a citizen I would be horrified. How brave of him to put this out there. I can't even imagine............

[quote] They have it 1,000x's worse.

Yes they do. Putin is a known murderer who commands a government packed to the gills with killers. Trump would have been too if he could have stayed in office long enough to get rid of enough rationally minded people and replace them with political thugs he could order to take care of those who crossed him. Putin is what Trump always aspired to be.

Wouldn't it be great if the world is rid of both Trump and Putin in 2021?

I hope the Russian people prevail.

[quote]I sincerely hope they can take their country back.

OK, I reread this and it occurred to me that Russians have never really had a country to take back between the czars, the Communists, and the oligarchs. Is that right, or has there ever been a period when things weren't utter shit for the people?

It would more than make up for 2020, R45. Maybe they can share a prison cell at Guantanamo Bay. 👬🏼

Garry Kasparov:

Young people have lived their entire lives under Putin's brutality and his turning the country into a pariah for the personal gain of him and his cronies. But as long as he has so much international support, removing him will be very hard.

You want to support Russians? Support Navalny and keep Putin out of your politics, your borders, your computer systems? Tell your politicians to treat him like the mafia terror sponsor that he is, or they are complicit in this crackdown and his next murder.

predictions are that Putin will be gone by 2022

r42 MAGAts are pro putin, he is their hero

MAGATs love talking about freedom, while embracing authoritarian kleptocrats who deny their citizens freedom. Cognitive dissonance at its worst.

Navalny's wife is pretty brave as well.

My intuition is telling me that Trump and Putin will expire within about eight months of one another, and both within two years and right months from now.

*two years and eight months.

Does Putin have his own cult of personality like Trump or Stalin? Beyond the mafia and organized crime he's cultivated. I had an old ESL student who remembers Stalin's death. She said that people on the streets cried genuine tears. It sure seems like Putin tries, posting bare chested on stallions, installing vending machines with paraphernalia bearing his likeness in metro stations, taking credit for the Olympics, etc. Or are Russians too cynical now?

This is what the United States could become if we voted in a version of Trump who is also *competent*.

We need to vote in every election.

[quote]It sure seems like Putin tries, posting bare chested on stallions, installing vending machines with paraphernalia bearing his likeness in metro stations, taking credit for the Olympics, etc.

Don't forget peddling his own cologne.

R56 Watch this video and read the comments. Russian people are varied in their attitudes and in their affinities for Putin's styles. A lot buy into them. A lot don't. A lot who don't won't say so explicitly and publicly sell the party line but privately want change. Putin is former KGB, he's a dictator in alm but title. He unquestionably is surrounded by like minded people who run the government, but the people (as ever in Russia) represent a huge spectrum from dominator-type abusers to pacifists to rebels. One of the country's eternal problems is that it's so huge and disparate geographically and culturally and it seems almost to need a tyrant running it in order to cohere.

[quote] My intuition is telling me that Trump and Putin will expire within about eight months of one another, and both within two years and eight months from now.

R54 how many correct numbers did your intution pick on last nights Mega Million?

r59 I think that is why the film above is important and how a lot of people finally saw what was going on.

R60 I don't play the lottery. I did correctly envision in April 2015 that Trump would win and there would be concentration camps in the US, but that's really about it so far.

I'm just saying what my gut is telling me. I don't recommend you bet on it.

Apparently "where they go one they go all" very differently in Russia.

r60 I'm not r54 but most psychics can't see that because the gift is to benefit others, not themselves. I only know of one psychic who seems to have the ability to be able to pick correct things on the stock market but won't use it because he knows that is not what his gift is for. Why is that always the question anyway?

[quote]R42 MAGAts are pro putin, he is their hero

I know. That's why I want to airdrop them into Moscow. Let them really fight for the cause they believe in. They'd be whimpering in the fetal position in a snowbank the first time a Russian protestor looked at them.

r62 that is scary. I believe what you saw was how it would have been if he had won again, but thankfully things changed so it didn't happen. If you are interested, you should nurture your gift.

[quote]the gift is to benefit others, not themselves.

Uh-huh.

Likely story and as good an excuse as any I suppose.

Putin had the existing infrastructure of control and oppression that was never really removed in Russia. He was competent enough to tighten things up, but inevitably the longer he stays in power the more inflexible and out of touch he becomes. He relies on a sort of mafia structure that he probably doesn't even control properly. A lot of his decisions are poor (counterproductive assassination attempts, bubbling, expensive (for Russia) wars), though he has had good luck sometimes - I don't believe he seriously enabled Trump (that is overwhelmingly down to us), but he reaped the rewards. It will be hard to dislodge him - dug-in authoritarian regimes has plenty of inertia and can be hard to shift, but sometimes they become so brittle the collapse..

Putin is no longer hawt. Get rid of him!

TikTok is Chinese-owned so maybe not surprising Russia would allow it.

Yikes

I love that this is happening right as Biden became president and Trump is gone. I hope this is a sneak preview of better things to come.

[quote]One of the country's eternal problems is that it's so huge and disparate geographically and culturally and it seems almost to need a tyrant running it in order to cohere.

No idiot @R59, is Canada or Australia a shithole, or the EU?

[quote] I don't believe he (Putin) seriously enabled Trump.

They had hacked into the voting computer infrastructure in 50 states. What do you think they were trying to do?

R66 I think it did happen. We had concentration camps on the border. I told everyone in my world that I knew Trump was going to win and everyone told me it was impossible. I felt crazy, but I saw what I saw and I felt it was real. I mentioned it here, including that there was a second vision that I wouldn't state because I was afraid that might somehow make it manifest--I didn't believe it would, but it was too terrifying to risk. As crazy as that sounds. I know it sounds crazy. Anyway, people here decided I was bullshitting because I wouldn't say what the second thing was. The border camps had already happened and I hoped that that was it but I didn't know how far it would go.

I don't know if I have any gift. That was a one-off vision, and it was as real as anything in the real world to me even though I'd never believe anyone else who said such things.

Anyway! This intuition I have about Trump and Putin wasn't a vision, just a strong hunch. I believe Trump has a neurodegenerative disease and that, although he is a sociopath, I believe his increasingly vitriolic behavior is related to cognitive decline/brain damage, and that it is affecting his body, as well. There's nothing at all on the line here and so I figure I may as well just say it: I have a strong hunch Trump will be gone within about 24-32 months and Putin for some reason will also head into decline within a couple of years of him. I'm most likely not anywhere near close, but I'm putting it in writing so that I can check in later. :)

[quote] They had hacked into the voting computer infrastructure in 50 states. What do you think they were trying to do?

Send Hallmark Thanksgiving Greetings e-cards, obviously.

r75 just so you know, others have predicted the same thing. you do have a gift whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

Wow, r58! I missed the cologne.

What is the fear factor in russia? Are people afraid of speaking up openly. I understand that there is mind blowing corruption there but are they going to lose their jobs or lives if the speak up?

Listen, as much as I don't like Putin, Navalny is a fucking piece of shit and we should not be rallying behind him. His views on immigration and gay people are down right Trumpian. Plus, this dude is 100% a CIA puppet trying to orchestrate a color revolution in Russia. If we're going to see Putin ousted, could we at least rally behind someone who isn't a total piece of shit? Seriously.

^ Wow

That reminds me of the pigs in Buffalo NY knocking the old man to the ground, R17.

r80 Who cares what his views are he's causing chaos inside Putins russia. Nice try svetlana, go back to your MAGAt posting.

I see Glenn Greenwald has joined us. Hi, Glenn!

Putin can't kill all of them.

R83 Who cares about his views? I do.

[Quote] Many Navalny supporters are extremely anti-immigrant, particularly when it comes to newcomers from the Caucasus and Central Asia. Many see Putin as playing a part in the destruction of the traditional fabric of Russia. Navalny himself has played a role in skinhead marches in Moscow and earned the sympathies of extremists. In other words, if he were an American, liberals would hate Navalny far more than they hate Trump or Steve Bannon — and yet he is glorified and exalted as Russia’s last, best hope.

You'd think people would learn something after the US supported a coup for the Shah of Iran, which, in turn, led to the revolution that installed the horrible Iranian regime we're dealing with now. Every time we support coups in other countries, like Guatemala, Chile and Brazil, the inevitable government that arises from the ashes is always worse than the previous one. If you push Putin out and replace him with Navalny, he's getting immediately deposed of and replaced with someone even worse and more unstable than Putin, like Vladimir Zhirinovsky. If you're going to replace Putin, at least put in someone who isn't going to end up getting couped himself a short time later. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. That's not me being a Russian troll. That's just being a student of history.

R80, that Salon journo seems to have a very strange opinion about certain things if you look at other articles she wrote.

Chechnya is part of the Caucasus. I would be very careful about migration from there too.

R87 It's not the only place where these criticisms have been made. Here's The Atlantic.

I looked her up and she seems to very anti-nationalist in a lot of her articles, is that what you mean R87? His views are very troubling for sure, but Putin is a POS too who clearly interferes in the elections of other countries.

It's not the opinion of a "Russian troll" to want to make sure we don't end up with the Russian Orthodox version of the Ayatollah installed in a revolution due to anger over Navalny's leadership. Iran is enough of a danger to the world as it is. We don't need to add a major nuclear power to the mix.

Navalny won't take over, this is about weakening Putin on the world stage. He tries to hide the discontent the russian people have for years of stagnation and the billionaire class ruling through corruption.

Once again R89, Chechnya is not a country with the potential for peaceful immigrants into western societies, nor to Russia aamof. I may have trouble with how Navalny worded his criticism but not his overall opinion about the region.

R91 What do you suggest instead? More of Putin as Russian president forever, running his slimy hands everywhere and jeopardizing democracies wherever he can?

R94 Let's try to support someone who isn't a total nationalist and fascist sympathizer. A Boris Yeltsin type is acceptable at this point. I'm not suggesting a total leftist. Just someone who doesn't share Trump's platform in regards to immigration and gay people.

r95 You probably are KGB funded Glenn Greenwald

R93 And what about the people of Chechnya who want to escape persecution? Having blanket anti immigration policies leaves vulnerable people, like our own gay community, exposed and subjected to concentration camps and death. Navalny would leave these people to die rather than allow them to immigrate to a place like Moscow where they aren't totally doomed. It's not West Hollywood, but at least it's not a complete hell hole for gays in that part of the world either.

[quote] Plus, this dude is 100% a CIA puppet trying to orchestrate a color revolution in Russia

R80 gives itself away with the sentence above and also their "Putin isn't really that bad, you see!" whataboutism.

R98 [Quote] "Putin isn't really that bad, you see!"

I never said that. What I said was let's not replace him with someone just as horrible who will end up leading the country to installing someone even worse than Putin. And let's not kid ourselves, here. This is an attempt by foreign countries to stage a coup against Putin. It's not pro-Putin to state the obvious.

[quote] This is an attempt by foreign countries to stage a coup against Putin.

Who fucking cares? He deserves a taste of his own medicine and let's hope this is just the beginning of a period of instability for him.

This is a great article that explains why Putin must stay in office or die. His grift has been too great to walk away.

Someone should poison Putin.

R100 I'm not going to keep repeating myself again and again, but if the "period of instability" ends up seeing a total fascist come to power ready to annex more of the former USSR than Putin has, then it would inevitably be worse than the situation we're dealing with now. As I've said before, this is not a pro-Putin position, but a pro-let's not trigger world war 3 with a coup that backfires on us and sees a worse person come to power in the aftermath of the chaos position. If we're going to support Putin's removal, let's support someone worthy of our support. Navalny is not that person.

Which is tackier - Putin's fragrance or Trump's fragrance?

Yes, R11, never in the history of Russia has a mass protest of enraged citizens managed to topple the regime of a hated autocrat.

[quote[I looked her up and she seems to very anti-nationalist in a lot of her articles,

Sure R90, writing articles about the DNC hacking wasn't done by Russia but an internal glitch doesn't really raise a red flag on a journo at all!

Does Leach Walesa and Solidarnosc ring a bell to you R105?

R26 thank you! I was looking for something to watch tonight.

So ... how fascist IS Putin anyway?

Putin died 6 months ago.

R6 makes you wonder what happened after the Arab Spring - the violence, the war, the collapse of the economy and the military dictationship last till today.

Protesters snowballing the police in Russia.

[quote]I wonder what it's like to give up your life for a cause

It's in a book.

Vlad, I'm proud of your fellow countrymen, didn't know they had it in them.

I thought you all were brain-dead cannibal douchebags.

[quote]Listen, as much as I don't like Putin, Navalny is a fucking piece of shit and we should not be rallying behind him. His views on immigration and gay people are down right Trumpian.

No they are not, thats from 2009, his views have changed, just like Hillary and Obama. He is even in support of same sex unions.

Doubtless that the US/Biden Administration will impose and enforce strict sanctions over Crimea again. The problem is that this merely makes the ordinary Russian suffer for Putin's sake. Much like it is here the US, the average citizen is not our enemy, but the autocrat Putin is. If they are subject to suffer even more than they do, they will topple Putin.

The US could do what it has done best in the past: Boost the opposition's power by giving it money, weapons, and effective military strategies to overthrow Putin's regime.

That’s a good idea, r119

As long as Putin is alive the Russian people don't stand a chance at freedom or democracy. He doesn't really have much of a second in command so when he dies it will be pure chaos. All the oligarchs will be jockeying for power, hopefully they won't unite behind just one person, meanwhile Russian's tactical nuclear weapons might end up in the hands of terrorist groups during the chaos sold to the highest bidder. Very scary.

R115 Where in that article does it mention any evolution on the issue of immigration, especially for people in the Chechyna region? I don't trust him on the issue of gay rights in general, no matter what public or subtle statements he's made. Also, we need to support someone who is going to be able to stay put for more than a month or a few months before the military and/or the intelligence agencies decide to just get rid of him and replace him with someone of their own choosing.

A lot of posters here think it's a "Boris" thing to point these things out, but there's been so many examples pointed out, including the failed Arab spring that R111 mentioned, that made the Middle East region even worse, not to mention the attempts to oust Assad in Syria resulting in a ten year long bloody civil war where he's still the president. People should learn something from even recent history instead of blindly following the CIA in trying to forment unrest in Russia without a solid plan to stabilize things afterwards. Putin is not good, but there is worse out there. We should make sure that that worse doesn't come to power in the aftermath of the chaos.

[quote] He doesn't really have much of a second in command so when he dies it will be pure chaos.

What about Dmitry Medvedev? The guy who was placed, as a formality, in the presidential position when the Russian Constitution required for Putin to step down in 2008 only to take over in 2012 again?

Back when the Berlin wall fell and I was a college student studying foreign policy, I didn't understand why the U.S. didn't send in diplomats (or whoever) to help the former Soviet satellites (and, eventually, Russia itself) set up functional democracies. We're all too happy to send our troops, but to send advisors on how to create a democratic government to newly independent nations? When we fancy ourselves as the greatest democracy in the world? [Although not so much anymore, I'm thinkin'.] IMHO, it was unconscionable that we never did that (that I know of).

I also took courses on the Soviet Union (which existed at that time), and I was told time and again that since they didn't have a history of democracy, it would be very difficult to establish one there. The idea that they could choose their own leaders was anathema to them, because they didn't believe they had the capacity to do that. What if they chose the wrong person?

Much luck to the protestors -- my heart goes out to them. But I'm not hopeful.

I wonder if these protests will interrupt Putin's botox supplies.

[quote] I wonder what it's like to give up your life for a cause.

It’s not all it’s cracked up to be...

Quote from the 'Private Eye' review of Michael Cohen's memoir:

'...when Trump begins to think seriously about running for president, it is, according to Cohen, for the very worst of all reasons. "Putin is the richest man in the world by a multiple," Don says approvingly. "Imagine controlling 25 percent of the wealth of a country. Wouldn't that be fucking amazing?"'

Russian protesters think not, though Trump's thugs were all good with that.

Something for everyone here to keep in mind:

[Quote] Opinion polls — of uncertain value in a country saturated by state propaganda and often fearful of speaking out — indicate that President Vladimir Putin faces no grave challenge to his popularity from the opposition leader Aleksei Navalny.

[Quote] A November survey of opinion by the Levada Center, [bold] an independent and highly respected polling organization, [/bold] found that [bold] only 2 percent of respondents named Mr. Navalny as their first choice when asked whom they would choose if a presidential election [/bold] were to be held the following Sunday. Fifty-five percent named Mr. Putin.

A person with 2% support in a country is not going to be a stabilizer, but rather a destabilizer who will lead the country to installing someone even worse than Putin. Dmitry Medvedev is controlled opposition, it's not going to fix things if he's put in. However, if he's more willing to engage with the west than Putin, then perhaps he's a better temporary placeholder until someone merges who can gain support across the political spectrum. The point is that in order to have a leader who is going to be able to stay on after Putin steps down, it has to be someone with a degree of organic support, not manufactured support by the media and foreign governments.

Russia has had such a hard, sad history for its existence.... hoping the people can rise up and install a democratic and progressive government in Moscow.

Russia is to big, it needs to be broken up.

We Versailled the Soviet Union (like the French did to the Germans after WWI) and created the corrupt kleptocracy that led to Putin.

Jeffrey Sachs hides this from his End of Poverty bullshit bio, but he really is one of the late 20th century's worst villain.

Is it obvious now why he had to get Trump to win? Can you imagine how bad it would have been for Putin if Hillary won? But instead, he had a nice 4 unbothered years with Russia looking good and the US being the villain. The US really needs to purge their country of the MAGA traitors, and Devin Nunes. This is how modern war is being conducted now, Russia, China and Iran know they cant compete with US military might, but they can compete through propaganda, hacking and maybe soreading viruses.

R128, do you really imagine that people felt free to answer as hey would like in a poll in Russia? Putin imprisons and kills people to maintain his control. I'm surprised he didn't get 90%. Honestly, the fact that he didn't get 90% speaks well for any opposition.

I want Putin's laptop. All of them.

R133 The polling agency cited by the New York Times is not a Putin controlled outlet. In fact, the Russian government deemed it a "foreign agent" due to its independence from Putin's control. If this group is saying Navalny has no real support, then the reality is he has no real support. 2% is less than what the libertarian candidates get in the presidential elections here in the US. You can't just back an opposition leader with the popularity of Jill Stein. If Navalny were to be installed, it would end disastrously.

R135, it's not the polling organization that is the issue. It's the people answering the polls. You have to put yourself in their position. What would your answer have been if Trump had been executing and locking up people who opposed him for over a decade and there was a Trump mob with their guns waiting outside your house as an independent polling company asked you if you supported Trump? And, don't pretend you're some revolutionary, because you're not.

[Quote] What would your answer have been if Trump had been executing and locking up people who opposed him for over a decade and there was a Trump mob with their guns waiting outside your house as an independent polling company asked you if you supported Trump?

You mean like what happened with members of congress on January 6th where every single Democrat voted to certify Biden's election result after having an angry mob threaten to kill them and then soon after voted to impeach Trump? Yeah, sometimes it's called growing a pair of balls and being honest. And unlike with members of congress, who faced legitimate threats to their lives, the odds of any real repercussions to answering honestly in an anonymous polling survey is non existent, even in Russia. Some people just don't want to admit that Navalny has no genuine support. There are lots of loud and vocal people in society. That doesn't make them the voice of a majority. If we're going to insist on Russia having a democracy, then it should be a system led by someone with the support of an actual majority. I don't think that's such an unreasonable request to make.

[quote]I didn't understand why the U.S. didn't send in diplomats (or whoever) to help the former Soviet satellites (and, eventually, Russia itself) set up functional democracies.

You know that a lot of former Soviet Union states are EU and NATO members now. The whole Ukraine-Crimea conflict started because Ukraine aims to be the next ex Soviet country to move West. Something Putin wants to prevent at any cost.

R137, I still call bullshit. That's exactly why I wrote the last sentence about not pretending you'd be a revolutionary, which is exactly what you turned around and did. Ask those Congresspeople how many of them would have been there that night without the thousand national guard units that finally showed up. They'd probably mostly lie like you did and pretend they would have been revolutionaries, too. You talk a big game from behind your computer in your safe house but Russians are human, too, and just as many of the will give the safe answer so they don't have to be scared as anyone else would. It's human nature. True revolutionaries willing to risk their and their families lives are rare.

There is no way to know anyone's true support in Russian up until they take to the streets and show their numbers. They are starting to do that. Whether it's Navalny or someone else, you'll know who has support by the numbers in the street because a tipping point will have been reached. I fully suspect he'll be dead within six months and Putin will be there until he falls down dead. And, even then, this being Russia, they'll pretend he's still alive for three more months as his oligarch friends kill each other behind the scenes in order to hold onto as much power as possible. The Russian revolution will happen when it happens and it will happen quick.

[Quote] Ask those Congresspeople how many of them would have been there that night without the thousand national guard units that finally showed up

They were given ample warning that something bad was going to happen beforehand and yet they showed up anyway. When the national guard cleared the capitol building, they could have easily gone home for the night or simply continued the count in a remote location. They didn't. They went back to the chambers and finished certifying the result. They could have easily caved to emotional distress, fear and pressure to do what was safe rather than what was morally right. They chose not to cower to fear and that's why Biden was sworn in.

Same thing with holding the inauguration outdoors. There were lots of warning signs that Biden and Harris could have been assassinated by members of the national guard, yet despite these alarms and threats stemming from the Pentagon, they chose to show up to do the ceremony outside in spite of the danger. They wanted to show people they didn't fear terrorists and their supporters. These are not revolutionaries. These are people who are generally fearful for their lives. However, they are also people who understand that if you give in to fear, you allow tyranny to reign. That's what people who oppose fascism do.

[Quote] There is no way to know anyone's true support in Russian up until they take to the streets and show their numbers.

Wrong. It is very easy to poll people anonymously. We have strong technology with powerful encryption that even our own government can't crack. let alone the Russian government. If you polled people via secure platforms (which many polling companies do) and promised anonymity, people will tell you what they really think. The reason that Putin only had the support of 55% of Russians in that poll I cited is because it was an honest assessment of where his support actually lies, not the bullshit 90% that the Russian government pushes out as propaganda.

Even if the numbers for Navalny are lower due to fear of reprisal, it's probably not far off from the actual number of where his support is in terms of raw numbers. He probably has a ceiling of maybe 10-20% of the population tops. That's not a majority, no matter how you choose to slice it. Any person who is going to lead in a democracy needs a majority to govern. Navalny doesn't have that majority. To support him is to support a doomed to fail leadership.

[Quote] The Russian revolution will happen when it happens and it will happen quick.

Doesn't mean it will lead to a situation any better than the one they are dealing with now. If anything, it could end up being worse. Just ask the people of Egypt how they are doing these days, or the people of Libya or Syria or any number of other nations that have had failed revolutions that didn't change anything in recent years. Perhaps, instead of just blindly supporting chaos to spite someone we don't like, we should have a plan for what happens if Putin's government collapses so someone else even worse than him doesn't take his place instead.

R140, you really have no idea what you are talking about concerning Russia. Your view of the bravery of our own Congresspeople reads like bad nationalistic fiction. They most certainly would not have been in the building if they didn't have a thousand national guard units standing around.

Russia is what we'd have been with Trump and the Repugs in power for 50 years. Think about that and how much you'd trust those "anonymous pollsters" you seem to think no one can crack. You also might want to guard your accounts better because you sound really naive when you talk about the magical encryption that no one can crack. And, of course there are plans in place for what will happen when Putin goes down, one way or another. The world is stupid but there are responsible adults running things in important countries all over the world. Your grasp on world politics seems lacking when you say things like 'oh, maybe someone should plan for this' as if you are the first person to have thought it over. Go watch Winter on Fire if you want to see how quickly a revolution can happen.

Wow.

It's like a discussion between Prometheus and Epimetheus in here.

I keep seeing the same few shots of Russian protests on MSNBC and CNN--the snowball fight and a couple others.

It makes me wonder if the scale of the protests may be misrepresented and exaggerated.

I say this because I live in DC and all year, people have asked me if I am OK, if I am safe, etc. A friend who lives in Virginia and had to come into the city one day a couple of weeks after BLM protests was TERRIFIED because news coverage made him think the city streets were filled with violence.

In reality, we've had a few demonstrations, the last one the most significant. A lot of people were there. It was contained mostly to the US Capitol area. Prior ones were within a couple blocks of the White House. I live about 1.4 miles NW of the White House and it's been quiet and just fine here all year. Quieter than ever, in fact, because of the pandemic shutting everything down.

We've had significant protests but they have been contained to very small areas and they've been brief, but the news has suggested to people that cities including this one have been "burned down." It's really crazy. It leaves me wondering whether the Russian protests we are seeing are widespread or contained in small areas.

[Quote] They most certainly would not have been in the building if they didn't have a thousand national guard units standing around.

There was a deliberate reduction in the number of the police guarding the capitol building on the day of the certification, supported by Trump and his cronies. In addition, they later had to perform a check on the national guard troops guarding the lawmakers on inauguration day for ties to militias and they had to remove 12 of them. Many of the people who stormed the capitol building were current and former police and military officers, the very people they were expecting to protect them. They were not safe at any point. In fact, they constantly had to look over their back to see who they could trust and who they couldn't. That's a scary situation to be in and yet they pressed forward. Sometimes, to do the right thing, you have to grow a spine. If lawmakers in the US could do it, where Putin like assassins lurk in the shadows every day, then the people of Russia could do it, or at least give outside people a clear glimpse of their real thoughts via anonymous contact. The excuses being made for why Navalny's supposed support from the Russian people is not there in polling is absurd.

[Quote] Russia is what we'd have been with Trump and the Repugs in power for 50 years.

That's literally been the case in this country for the last 50 years since Reagan.

[Quote] And, of course there are plans in place for what will happen when Putin goes down, one way or another. The world is stupid but there are responsible adults running things in important countries all over the world. Your grasp on world politics seems lacking when you say things like 'oh, maybe someone should plan for this' as if you are the first person to have thought it over.

If the "plans" are in any way similar to the "plans" people had for "rebuilding" Iraq after overthrowing Saddam Hussein and "rebuilding" Afghanistan after toppling the Taliban, then I'd say those experts need to go back to the drawing board. Those were total disasters that we are still paying the price for to this day. The "adults" in the room have destabilized vast parts of the world for generations in the name of "democracy." It's time that we stop doing this without a solid plan to prevent worse governments from coming to power in the aftermath. The destruction of Al-Qaeda led to the rise of ISIS. The fall of ISIS will likewise lead to something even worse. Unless and until the public insists that our governments stop meddling in the affairs of other countries, we will not have world peace and we will not have stability, even in our own nation.

[Quote] Go watch Winter on Fire if you want to see how quickly a revolution can happen.

And as I've said before, go see what happens when revolutions fail. We like to memorialize things like the American and French revolutions, but that's because those were victorious conflicts. The winners write the history book. I'm sure if you asked Native Americans in our country or the Palestinians or any oppressed group around the world how their revolutions panned out, they'd give you an entirely different story. Backing failed revolutions just brings further misery and destruction to the world. Our world leaders don't care about this because they revel in the chaos and division.

I am sympathetic to the desires of some Russians to have a more genuine democracy, but I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon of any wannabe revolutionary just because they have the support of foreign governments and a loud, but vocal, minority of the public. Many people here think far too much in the short term. I think long term and I don't think Navalny would lead to any stability, in fact, just the opposite. So instead of just blindly following whoever dares challenge Putin, let's use our critical thinking skills and determine whether someone has a political mandate that we should support and whether any such efforts to topple the government would work. In my opinion, Navalny is not this person. Going down the path of war with him would be a grave mistake.

Correction: 50 years since Nixon.

R146 sounds like "Let's just support ANY dictatorship over freedom fighters as long as they provide a stable dictatorship"

^I don't think he sounds like that at all. I think he's just saying we need to be careful we don't get into an even worse situation than we're in, which could happen. It has happened plenty of times in the past, after all, when people haven't put enough forethought into what will happen after the initial joy at having gotten rid of a dictator.

^ so they should just sit meekly with Putin’s heel on their faces until some mythical perfect leader comes along?

Get rid of Putin!

Don't be disingenuous R150. No one said that.

I hope the anti-Putin sentiment keeps spreading amongst the youngsters. The seed has already been planted.

R149 That's exactly what I've been saying the whole time, but it seems that some people just don't want to hear it.

R154 I think we get what you're saying. We've heard you. Now you're just repeating yourself at this point.

I get what you're saying R154. You made some very interesting and cogent points. I get the strongest feeling the person arguing with you is either someone who (a) never graduated high school, and has no understanding of critical thinking or nuance or history, or (b) just one of those people who like to argue and argue and argue because they are under the impression having the last word means "winning". In either case they're not really worth continuing a debate with.

They should all wear the V for Vendetta face masks. Vive la revolution!

It's going to be fun watching chaos erupt across Russia during the Biden years. Payback, cunts.

[quote]Don't be disingenuous [R150]. No one said that.

That's right YOU completely forgot to mention that part of the equation.

Russia is a brutal dictatorship and the most unequal country in the world. Nowhere is the gap between haves and have nots as big as in Russia.

Stop projecting 156, you're not smart enough to argue with adults.

Boris is big in this thread. Boris, not Svetlana or Ludmila the dumb one from Minsk! They are sending the big guns on to Datalounge today, sisters!

When all your arguments are logical fallacies, you've basically lost. There's no point continuing the discussion, you may as well leave now and leave the rest of the conversation to the adults.