John F. Kennedy Jr. Would Turn 60 Today!

Hot but seemed like an airhead who costed off his family name and good looks. He had no business trying to be a lawyer or flying a plane. If Jackie had allowed it, he would have been an actor or model. Her judgment was poor in thinking he was as intelligent as his father and uncle

Would!

Caroline has the masculine and competitive personality for politics. John was sensitive and feminine and more inclined to the arts. I think it's comical that people thought he could have been President, he seemed way too emotionally fragile from interviews.

He would have been 60 had he spent $200 on a commercial airline ticket instead of being another silly Kennedy daredevil.

He ate my pussy!

Fools. JFK's alive and well and was planning to be Trump's running mate, but ANTIFA stepped in and fucked everything up.

Caroline can't help but come off as a privileged cunt. Which is what she is.

At least John-John came off as a decent guy, if a bit clueless.

Most of the Kennedys seem like assholes. I agree JFK Jr seemed like a decent guy, he probably should have distanced himself from his family because they are white trash with money.

R6 is right. John-John is Q.

[quote]He ate my pussy!

[quote]—M. L. Ciccone

Who didn't?

From what I’d read about him, including stories from non-sycophantic journalists and friends with perspective, JFK Jr comes off as a beta guy who was more image- and status- conscious than his admirers like to admit. He had no problems with using his family connections to help him cheat on bar exam. Stories about him being vain regarding his height and looks. People coming forward saying he was eyeing a senate run (would have gone up against Hillary) despite having no record of legislative service/ experience, but that he felt his name was enough to win him his rightful seat.

Total beta in his relationship with druggie, mean girl Carolyn, who twisted him around her fingers while she had her fuck boy on the side. The fact that he chose a seemingly cool but shallow woman for a wife only added to what we know about his misjudgments in life. But probably biggest faults were his inability to accept that he had average intelligence and ability, that he coasted by on looks and family name. ADHD, poor decision-making, and thinking he was special, those things doomed him to make the errors that proved fatal. He had no business getting a pilot license.

[quote]But probably biggest faults were his inability to accept that he had average intelligence and ability, that he coasted by on looks...ADHD, poor decision-making, and thinking he was special

If men with the faults you list were disqualified from being pilots, the world would have no pilots.

R12 not true. My ex’s dad was a pilot and came from a family of pilots, both military and civilian/ hobbyist. He was very analytical and enjoyed solving problems (a Ph.D biochemical scientist). He once flew his private plane to safety when one of the engines died when he flew his family from Mexico back to Texas. Good pilots generally are focused and calm under pressure, traits that are missing from a composite sketch of JFK’s personality. Failing the bar exam multiple times and only passing with “help” tells me that somehow the guy wasn’t someone you’d want in the cockpit when there’s an emergency.

@r10, "Who didn't? "

ME!!... ew

Wow R11., that's a whole lot of shitting on someone you've never even met.

....

He just had to go. Sorry, not sorry.

Waiting for the " I once saw JFK Jr schlong in the locker room " story .

R15 as opposed to only “shitting” on someone you’d met before? Are you that dense or new to DL?

What might have been . . .

There were stories of him poolside at Randolph Country Club back in the day and a handful of sightings in gay bars just outside Boston.

He really was beautiful. He should have had a television show about politics where people could see him instead of doing George magazine.

He had a hot ass, but...

R11 thinks Donald J. Trump is the embodiment of what a "real man" is.

#Sad. #Desperation. #Delusional

Not sure if I read it on DL or elsewhere, but supposedly Carolyn Bessette's often used insult to JFK Jr. was "Stop being such a fag[got]" and other variations using the epithet. Made her seem like a nasty piece of work as well as questioning Kennedy's sexuality.

Back then, I remember the magazines and papers going on and on about what a beauty Carolyn Bessette was. I always thought she was kind of fugly.

R26, I don't know if I'd say "fugly," but I always thought she had a very hard face. And if what R25 writes is true, there's one more reason to REALLY hate that woman. I think many people agree that John would have been far better off if he'd stayed with Daryl Hannah.

A close friend worked for George and a fellow UT-Austin went to high school with JFK, Jr. They both had nothing but kind things to say about him (this was before he died). Both said he was friendly and approachable. That’s all I got.

Student ^^^

R24 I don’t know where you’d get from my assessment of JFK Jr to somehow linking it to Trump. Obviously you’re the deranged one who’s pining after a long-dead, hot piece of ass and gets personally offended when DLers don’t fawn over him. Oh and methinks you’re either a secret Trumptard or share in Trumptard tactics of labeling/ name-calling anyone whom you don’t agree with. If talking about JFK Jr can set you off in this way, god knows what kind of an unpleasant person you must be in real life.

Oh but he was a dreambooooat!

Ted Kennedy had to identify the bodies. Can you imagine?

[quote] Hot but seemed like an airhead who costed off his family name

I do love irony.

[quote] People coming forward saying he was eyeing a senate run (would have gone up against Hillary)

And that’s why there was a, ahem, “plane crash.”

Who is that again?

I knew him socially. He wasn’t a airhead but I’ll be damned if he didn’t have that thing where he talked to you and you felt like a 14 year old girl. He was so charming and devastating good looking in person. But it also got him by in life. He had the one two punch of Kennedy and the looks. But he was lazy and he knew he would land on his feet eventually. He probably would have landed in politics. Perfect for him.

[quote]Ted Kennedy had to identify the bodies. Can you imagine?

I'd like to identify THAT body!

He could have ended up with a political career in senate but I cant see him being President. Too much pressure and burden of responsibility on him which I can't see him handling well. Also his marriage was on the rocks and divorce seemed likely and the dirty details being sold to the press.. His possible drug addiction. His possible bisexuality. The media was much more vicious by that point and intrusive. There was no more untouchability of public figures at his point like what had protected his father.

I’ve noted this before but my sister met him & thought there was no there there. A total turn-off for her.

Interesting, R41. The polar opposite of the reaction to JFK Jr. that's described at R38. To each their own, I guess.

R41 would you mind repeating the story?

i like him. he made the world a more interesting one with his presence. but such an unfair world it is where someone like him died tragically whereas the likes of Drump went on to become a president.

Full fathom five thy hunk lies.

Of his bones are coral made.

Those are pearls that were his eyes.

Nothing of him that doth fade,

But doth suffer a sea-change

Into something rich and strange.

Sea-nymphs hourly ring his knell

Isn't Justin Trudeau the JFK Jr of Canada? He even has the same Mediterranean look.

Isn't Justin Trudeau the JFK Jr of Canada? He even has the same Mediterranean look.

[quote] my sister met him & thought there was no there there.

I absolutely love this expression.

Gorgeous man. Combined the best of his father‘s and mother’s looks. Unlike the poor Moore/ Willis girls who seem to combine the worst.

Yeah, he truly got the very best genes of his mother's and father's families. What a fuckin' Greek god. Love that picture with his hands in his shorts! There should be a statue of him on that Greek island where he spent most of his time when mom was married to Onassis.

Would he be president? If Trump could do it, JFK Jr. sure as hell could. He had a lot of baggage to deal with from the Kennedy clan's debacles, but a lot of positive memories about him, too, for the average voter.

He got his swarthy looks from Grandpa.

I wonder if he and Princess Diana are a couple in the beyond?

I guess Trudeau and JFK Jr have French looks. Ok if you like that sort of thing. I think he was half a fag.

R52 Tina Brown should have gone a step further and created a Newsweek cover featuring both Zombie Diana AND zombie JFK Jr smooching.

I can’t even imagine him at age 60

I just turned 60 as well - and so did Prince Andrew back in Feb. I was always fascinated that my Mom, Jackie Kennedy and Queen Elizabeth II were all pregnant at the same time...

He never would’ve made it.

He'd probably look like this perhaps a fatter.

[quote]John F. Kennedy Jr. Would Turn 60 Today!

Still thirty years too young to be the Democratic nominee for President!

R24, this isn't Twitter. Stop it with the fucking hashtags. #DumbCunt

Thanks for the spot!

R60, Joe Biden is THREE AND ONE-HALF YEARS older than Trump. What kind of idiot are you and your kind to harp on a LESS THAN FOUR-YEAR difference and pretend that it's significant when it's absolutely not?

And Biden is 75lbs thinner too.

You never really see or hear anything from Caroline, I don't even think she's on Twitter, which is kinda surprising.

I guess she enjoys the peace and quiet of a secluded life. Especially after everything she's had to experience in her life. I kinda don't blame her for staying out of the limelight as much as possible.

It's not like she needs the money or anything thing. She's loaded, set for several lifetimes I bet.

Fifty seven years ago, on November 22, 1963, JFK, Sr. was assassinated.

I didn't hear it mentioned by any news outlets this year.

Did he ever meet Justin Trudeau?

He'd have been a good American. Tragic.

His looks are very overrate.

*overrated

[quote]Did he ever meet Justin Trudeau?

R67, I don't know, but Justin Trudeau's father Pierre was considered the JFK of Canada.

Michael Bergin's book portrays his love - hate relationship with JFK Jr's late wife. The hate was due to her coke addiction and partying ways. She did really over-the-top things like breaking into his apartment.

From Bergin's portrayal can sadly imagine the former model dissing and bullying her husband even if she didn't truly believe he was actually bisexual. East Coast/NY thing? Either way it's a clear sign to marriage counselors of an impending divorce.

Datalounge never forgives a handsome man who has been labeled gay, for turning his back on this fine and impartial organization, and marrying an attractive blond.

Attractive?

Saw him up close a few times in NY and he was as beautiful as you imagined.

[quote]Happy Birthday, You Hot Piece of Dead Hunk!

Don't wish dead people Happy Birthday, idiot OP.

[Quote]He could have ended up with a political career in senate but I cant see him being President. Too much pressure and burden of responsibility on him which I can't see him handling well. Also his marriage was on the rocks and divorce seemed likely and the dirty details being sold to the press.. His possible drug addiction. His possible bisexuality. The media was much more vicious by that point and intrusive. There was no more untouchability of public figures at his point like what had protected his father.

R40 Hello, this is 2020 calling. We have real life POTUS who could basically 'shoot somebody in the middle of Fifth Avenue and get away with it', and a FLOTUS (the 3rd wife) who is basically the type of broad who JFK, Sr. used to sneak into the WH when Jackie wasn't looking.

I think JFK, Jr. would have managed to get through the process given who is sitting at 1600 Pennsylvania today.

Sigh, I remember sitting in traffic & crying my eyes out when I heard the news. He clearly was a reckless dolt, but he was like some beautiful, doomed character out of novel.

I could never imagine him in politics; he seemed too ADHD for the daily grind of it all & the public would've hated Carolyn

[quote]Fifty seven years ago, on November 22, 1963, JFK, Sr. was assassinated. I didn't hear it mentioned by any news outlets this year.

Why should it be? Lincoln's assassination date isn't commemorated anymore either, and he was a far more important president. And garfield's and McKinley's assassination anniversaries go uncommemorated too.

[quote]he was like some beautiful, doomed character out of novel.

That's one of those rare gems you get on DL that makes all the porn threads tolerable.

I suppose, then she was a character from a novel too.

She was a photo Meghan Markle. Marrying in. Marrying up. Mixing it up. Killin' it.

America lost its Prince when JFK Jr. died. After all this time, nobody has really been able to come out with a "tell all" about all the awful things he did, because he was a good boy. He was American royalty in looks, background and personality. He never wanted to offend anyone and was always polite and kindhearted. Sure, he liked to do a line or two. But he wasn't a hoover like his wife. Carolyn is the one who sealed their fate by being so late to the airport that day, by getting a fucking manicure. Still, he had no business flying. He had no instruments training, or very little, and you just don't fly at night without knowing how to rely on your instruments. At least they died fast. I remember someone saying he didn't go through the windshield, the windshield went through him.

He just always did something to me. I thought he was one of the most beautiful men on the planet. Saw him once (NYC), a few feet away. He was coming out of a building, hopped on his bike and rode off into the sunset. I must have stood there fanning myself like an aging spinster. (This was before I was an actual aging spinster.)

Isn't aging spinster redundant? Never was too bright of a penny.

[quote] Sigh, I remember sitting in traffic & crying my eyes out when I heard the news.

MARY!!!!

R78 = Diana screamer (on the road).

[quote]he was like some beautiful, doomed character out of novel.

Exactly. He'd still be a handsome hunk at 60. Seemed like his best friend was his cousin Tony Radziwill whom he looked after when Tony was diagnosed with cancer, finally dying a couple of weeks (?) after John. If you haven't read Carole Radziwill's book "What Remains," it's a good read about their last days together.

Caroline really got none of the charisma or charm of her baby brother.

In the early '80s, I graduated from Boston University with John's cousin, Anthony Radziwill, and John and Jackie attended (Caroline was not there). When I received my Master's degree from Boston University's College of Communications, Anthony received his undergraduate degree. At the individual colleges within the university, the graduate and undergraduate students had a smaller graduation ceremony together (I attended) versus the huge ceremony (I did not attend) that was held for the entire school.

Anyway, Jackie was there with John-John and Lee was there with Anthony's sister, Christina. They were seated right in the front row cheering on Anthony when his name was called. The graduating students were lined up waiting to go on stage about three feet away from the front row. Although it was a smaller graduation, there were still quite a number of us lined up so it took a while. I stood there in line for the longest time just feet away staring at the Kennedy/Radziwill clan. Of course, I couldn't take my eyes off them especially Jackie and John. Growing up in Boston, I had always seen my share of Kennedys around town, but seeing Jackie O and John-John with his floppy hair, disheveled button-down shirt and tie in typical Kennedy style was a treat. But as close as were all were in line to the front row, Jackie, Lee and kids had quite a knack of just focusing on each other, cheering on Anthony and ignoring everyone else.

Do you think he fucked that CNN reporter, Christianne Amanpour?

[quote]But as close as were all were in line to the front row, Jackie, Lee and kids had quite a knack of just focusing on each other, cheering on Anthony and ignoring everyone else.

Lots of practice. John coped so well with all the attention. God knows he was stared at wherever he went starting from an early age. Even big celebrities were in awe of them. Imagine John was protective of his mother, knowing how hounded she was everywhere she went.

Were any of the women he dated NOT skanks?

Madonna

Daryl Hannah

Sarah Jessica Parker

Do you think he took Big Edie and Lil Edie out for Sunday drives?

I recall reading that JFK Jr, back in the day, was the only celebrity able to bring the fanciest of restaurants to dead quiet just by walking in. People just stopped and stared. I can believe it. The article also said that the only other celebrity to come close was Mick Jagger.

I recall reading that JFK Jr, back in the day, was the only celebrity able to bring the fanciest of restaurants to dead quiet just by walking in. People just stopped and stared. I can believe it. The article also said that the only other celebrity to come close was Mick Jagger.

I was working at a 7-11 in West Palm Bch circa 1981 (2?) and he walked in one day . I can verify what R38 said because I immediately turned into a 13 year old girl . He had a palpable charisma about him ,and was impossibly good looking in person . I was literally tongue tied when he brought his bottle of Evian and a pack of gum to the counter . He actually smiled a little because it was obvious I knew who he was and was reacting to his looks. Very pleasant even as I tittered like a fucking chipmunk ! I also teared up when I heard he died. If he would have told me to drop and suck his dick in a store full of people ,Id have leapt that counter and been on my knees before he finished saying it. The poster upthread who said his sister was unimpressed has a dyke for a sister and doesnt know it. He was one of those that any woman would have fucked and many men would have went gay for.

[quote] I immediately turned into a 13 year old girl .

Turned into. Pffft.

Who you kidding, queen?

[quote] The poster upthread who said his sister was unimpressed has a dyke for a sister and doesnt know it.

That was me, R94, and no, my now-deceased sister, of whom an admirer upon meeting me said "your sister was one of the most beautiful woman walking the face of the earth," was no dyke. Befitting her looks it was no surprise that she traveled in some elite circles. At the same '96 Democratic Convention in which she met JFK, Jr. she also met Kevin Costner, someone who had never previously registered in her thinking. Unlike JFK, Jr, Costner cast quite a spell on her.

Costner had nothing on JFK Jr. Not even close.

And still doesn’t, even BOTH of them in their current state.

I remember after they were engaged and got into a huge fight. She railed into him and left him crying on the curb. I hated her after that.

R97, that’s what my sister, a Kennedyphile, would’ve thought before she met the two men.

He was the kind of kid you only wanted to be happy forever. He'd been through so much.

I agree with most of the criticism here but how did he cheat or get help with the bar exam?

That seems almost impossible to do. He took it in NYC not some backwater place in North Dakota. I'd say it's near impossible to cheat on bar exam.

I can imagine your gorgeous sister favoring Costner for his star power and (early) good looks. But John had the pedigree the looks, the money, and the character. Costner turned out to be a real prick with a Napoleon complex.

R47 Trudeau has a French look. French aren't all Mediterranean you know, only the south of France is on the mediterranean side. Look at Macron, he doesn't look Mediterranean at all

Living in NYC I had seen John several times around town over the years, Battery Park, Midtown, Upper East Side, and even on the same subway car. I'm not sure whether I had mentioned my encounter with him here or at another site. This was around 1989 or 1990. I was rollerblading in Central Park and some kid came running across the path of me and another skater, and we ended up literally bumping into each other and tumbling over. I then realized the other skater was JFK Jr. Neither he or I were hurt much. I had a bottle of water and we used it to rinsed our scrapes. We chatted a bit, and laughed a lot, I guess we really hit it off because he offered me his phone number so we can get together for coffee sometime. I borrowed a pen from a women nearby and wrote it on a scrap paper I found. We said goodbye and went our own way. Afterwards I recall being very elated, but when I got home and reached in my pocket the paper was missing. It must have fallen out somehow. I was so crushed, I even cried a little. I should have also given him my number. I would have liked to met up with him again even if it ended up as nothing more than a chat over coffee.

You can't cheat on a NYC bar exam, that's a total bullshit claim.

R99 Oh... First time i see this picture. Makes me sad

OMG R105 !!!!! I would have retraced my tracks until I found that damned piece of paper. Can you imagine John thinking, "I gave him my number and he didn't call. THAT never happened to me before!"

New York bar exam is very hard! It's one of the harder ones...that what I heard

R50 His mom, Jacqueline Bouvier was French not Greek and JFK was an Irish

He should've taken the bar in Palm Beach. Florida's easier. I know a birdbrain who passed.

I've seen him a few times over 20 years ago. He looked even better in person. He was riding a bike in a suit and was locking it up before he went into a building in the flatiron district. Super hot!!

R112 Lucky you

R110. Greek God doesn't necessarily connote Greek born. And he sure was. It's like every Kennedy/Bouvier ancestor piled up in the genes over the years and finally combined in perfect harmony to form John, Jr.

R114 It's very poetic, but in France there are lots of faces like the handsome John Jr... The sensual side of his mother is very pronounced and it is not Greek. Onasis was Greek and you can tell there is a difference.

"People coming forward saying he was eyeing a senate run (would have gone up against Hillary) despite having no record of legislative service/ experience"

I.R.O.N.Y.

They killed John Jr.

R16 He had the most pointiest nipples I’ve ever seen. Razor sharp. Hmm.

I know R115. He looked like a Greek God. Re-read. And, no, there are very few people in the world like JFK, Jr. He was magic. Of course, dying young always helps.

R119 Yep, Greek Gods were a legend from their mythology. And yes, in that mythology, they were all gorgeous with bodies to die for but in the real life Greeks aren't that hot. When Turkish invaded and colonized Greece they took after the Turkish.

John Jr was hot asf

[quote] Neither he or I were hurt much.

[quote]I had a bottle of water and we used it to rinsed our scrapes.

[quote]I borrowed a pen from a women nearby

[quote]I would have liked to met up with him again

Considering your tenuous grasp of the English language, his mother being an editor and he a magazine owner, I think he dodged a bullet.

[quote] I've seen him a few times over 20 years ago.

Considering he died 21 years ago, uh, yeah, I’m glad you haven’t seen him in the last 20 years.

R96 mea culpa . I meant no disrespect to your sister ,I thought myself clever .

Oh Fuck. Marian the Grammarian has joined us.

Jackie Kennedy speaking a good French. Not like a certain someone who said she was speakings 5 languages fluently.

It always seemed the only time you saw Caroline smile was when she was with her brother. He lightened her up. And now she's lost even him but ended up with all the marbles. $250 million of them.

Mom was a beaut

They say Caroline's son Jack is carrying on the charisma. Not bad but not close.

R129 Nah

Why did Caroline name her son John ("Jack")? He was born before John Jr. died. He's half Jewish. Bad luck to name a child after a living relative.

He looks weird. Funny how just a slight change can ruin it all.

R131, didn’t she name him after her father?

R129 well they say Kennedy grandaughter, Rose, looked like Jackie. She's pretty but nothing like Jackie imo

R133 Yes people closed to JFK called him Jack

[quote]It always seemed the only time you saw Caroline smile was when she was with her brother. He lightened her up. And now she's lost even him but ended up with all the marbles. $250 million of them.

Yeah, but did he have a song written about him?

Sweet Caroline, la la la

Carolyn Bessette had quite the horse face.

I think Rose looks like Jackie more than Jack looks like John. But Jackie was a one-off.

His mother was a dirty whore. Porni!

r8 Would you say Ethel Kennedy and Ted's ex wife Joan are assholes or arseholes as we say in Britain?

He should have gone into politics He would have gotten elected easily. He didn't have much in the way of brains, but that hasn't stopped a lot of political candidates from being successful. There have been lots of dumb Governors, Senators, Mayors and God knows, Presidents. But he didn't want to be a public servant. What DID he want to do? Well, I think he had an interest in being an actor (and maybe he would have been a decent one) but Jackie was dead set against that? So what did that leave? He didn't seem to want to be a lawyer. He started a magazine but that didn't go well. In his late thirties he still didn't seem to have a focus in life. And his marriage would definitely have ended eventually. I think he would have continued to drift, have affairs and generally lead a life of no real purpose.

All the women at that time wanted to fuck with JFK. Jackie has so much rivals. Marylin, Audrey Hepburn and even Dietrish. He cheated on her so many times

^Jackie had

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote]I think he would have continued to drift, have affairs and generally lead a life of no real purpose.

There are no mysteries now, nothing can thrill you, no one fulfill you

High flying, adored! I hope you come to terms with boredom

So famous so easily so soon

It's not the wisest thing to be,

You won't care if they love you, it's been done before

You'll despair if they hate you, you'll be drained of all energy

All the young who've made it would agree

I love these JFK Jr threads - they bring out the sentimental heart of DL; no Russian trolls, no Diana vs. Chuck or Kate vs. Meghan - just adoration & an overall willingness to overlook his recklessness and stupidity because he was hot

Some women photograph worse than they look in real life. I think Carolyn was one of them. From what I've read about her, she had a light inside of her and a charisma all her own. When she began working for Calvin Klein, she was brought up through the ranks very quickly. I wouldn't call John "stupid," but maybe not as intellectually evolved as Carolyn. He had learning disabilities and ADHD or OCD, starting as a small child -- hard to control. I don't think most people realized he had challenges until he failed the New York Bar (twice). I think dating Darryl, Madonna, and Jessica was fine but he knew his mother would want him to marry someone like Carolyn, who had a Jackie-like style of her own. I couldn't believe Carolyn would cheat on him with Michael Bergin, a Calvin Klein model and Baywatch Boy, though he almost rivaled John looks-wise. He wrote about her anger issues. After they broke up, she completely trashed his NY apartment from top to bottom.

I heard he had the Irish Curse, and that's why he had a rocky marriage with Carolyn, who was cheating on him.

what kind of exercises do you think he did to get that HOT chest?

[quote] she had a light inside of her and a charisma all her own.

Did she die or something?

Bergin's book was pretty good. Called "The Other Man. A Love Story." I've lost it and it's not on Kindle but he came off very self-effacing. He talks about working as a room service guy at the Paramount Hotel in '92. An older gay guy would always beckon him up just as his shift was ending and proposition him. He doesn't diss the guy and in fact shows compassion for him and the other lonely people because he was lonely himself. But he's straight. One night he goes into a bar on the UES and sees a tall girl dressed all in black on the dance floor. He describes her as a "one of a kind" type with an easy smile. Class. They meet. She ges hung up on him. blah blah blah. The end. Literally. He also sounds like a classy guy. Didn't publish till '05.

A must read for John John fans.

From the story:

The marriage made front-page news everywhere, and a new Kennedy myth was born. The man who could have had any woman in the world had chosen as his bride one who was not rich or famous or ennobled by family background or distinguished by any professional accomplishment. What Carolyn had were certain charismatic qualities—exceptional beauty, a unique sense of style, and a shrewd, sharp, hard intelligence.

Never knew she was 6 feet tall.

[quote]Never knew she was 6 feet tall.

She was tall enough to be his mother.

[quote]He should have gone into politics He would have gotten elected easily. He didn't have much in the way of brains, but that hasn't stopped a lot of political candidates from being successful.

Ya think? They say politics is showbiz for ugly people. John would have made it to the top for sure. He could have brought back the sheen of the Kennedy name to American politics. I remember when Jesse Ventura, the wrestler became governor of Minnesota and thinking wow . . . anyone can be a politician. Then there was Arnold Schwarzenegger. And now we've devolved to the self-proclaimed "jenius" illiterate Donald Trump. So ugly inside and out.

John didn’t need to go into politics. He didn’t have his father’s political prowess in that regard.

I never thought of JFK Sr. as being this incredibly attractive man. Good looking, yes, but it had to be the power he had to get all the women in bed with him. JFK Jr. on the other hand was VERY attractive. Friends of mine who were around at the time JFKjr went to Brown said they used to see him all over. A very natural, regular guy, nothing famous surrounding him. They also saw him in one of Brown's theater productions and said he was pretty good.

That article linked at R152 is fascinating, and very sad. It certainly paints Carolyn in a very bad light. I suppose it's understandable if her marriage to John started to sour because she felt he was spending too much time at the magazine and with his friends, rather than with her, but as for her depression, anxiety, and anger over "living in a fishbowl" -- for heaven's sake, isn't that something she would have already experienced while they were dating? And as for their disagreement over whether or not to have children -- holy shit, wouldn't you think this is something they would have discussed BEFORE getting married? I just don't get it.

[quote]When I caught up with Bergin, I asked him about the time Carolyn Bessette broke into his apartment. At first he professed to have no recollection of such an incident. But as we talked, memories of his days with Carolyn began flowing back. “Carolyn climbing fire escapes doesn’t surprise me,” Bergin told me. “If Carolyn wanted to get into someone’s apartment, she would. If she had to be a spider woman to get into someone’s apartment, she would. If she had to throw things, she would. “There was one time when Carolyn saw me at a bar lighting a cigarette for an ex-girlfriend,” he continued. “Carolyn came over, pushed the girl out of the way, got in my face, and screamed and yelled at me, and even drew a little blood from my face.

And that's only one example of her outrageous behavior quoted in the article at R152. Sounds like she was a real horror, and it doesn't say much for JFK Jr.'s intelligence, taste, or judgment of character that he married her.

And here is the next section of that article, quoting Michael Bergin:

“I went home, and two minutes later Carolyn was at my door. I had to let her in or she would have knocked the whole building down. I had these tall, heavy religious candles, and she threw one through the window, smashing the windowpane, and another at the mirror above the fireplace mantel, which shattered. Then she knocked my television set and VCR onto the floor and jumped on my VCR and squashed it. I ran out of the apartment. I’m very athletic and fast, but she caught up with me, and started yelling at me, and taunting me, calling me a baby. And my adrenaline was flowing, and I turned around and pushed her away from me, and she went flying in the air and landed on the stoop of a building. That put an end to that, and we went back to my apartment."

Holy crap.

No worries, R94/124. But to the question of my sister’s sexuality, once when a younger woman appeared to be hitting on her I asked if she might be interested. Without missing a beat, she coolly shaked off that possibility, saying that she wasn’t sure of many things but of that she was sure.

[quote]Without missing a beat, she coolly shaked off that possibility,

Oh, dear....

Anyway, even if your sister is definitely straight and absolutely not a lesbian, I think the issue here is that many people are very surprised she felt there was no "there" there with JFK Jr. But maybe she just responded to his personality in a very different way than most other people.

Why the hell wouldn't Carolyn want to have John's baby?! That makes no sense. She must have known, at least according to the article, that the marriage might not last. And her calling him a "fag." What a cunt. Carolyn didn't come from money. Having a kid by a Kennedy? That's a lifetime annuity.

I don't understand why they don't have Bergin's book on Kindle. A definite miscalculation by the publisher. Anything even remotely related to the Kennedys sells in perpetuity. He was a good guy, much like John. He didn't want to cheat with her after her marriage. Class act.

. . . or maybe Bergin realized he wouldn't make it out of that relationship alive so he broke it off. She sounds like a fucking maniac.

She was nuts. What a terrible pick.

It was obvious that when outraged she would assault John, both emotionally and physically.

So Carolyn Bessette Kennedy was a raging, violent, jealous harridan who drew blood and single handedly trashed apartments? In other articles she's described as warm, loving, funny, a good friend, a magical human being. So what's the truth? I guess somewhere in the middle.

I heard that she and John John and her sister took off in their plane later than they should have (the late hour contributed to the conditions that helped John John crash the plane) because she was getting a pedicure and wouldn't leave the salon until they got her toes painted exactly in the shade she wanted (lavender with a hint of white).

Carolyn's (probable) last words: "You fucking faggot, you're gonna kill us all!"

It's obvious she had no respect for John. She was responsible. Had they flew in daylight conditions they would've made it.

R168 Yes, they left at least an hour later that planned because of Carolyn's unresolved pedicure incident. She had them do it three times until they got it just right.

It was white with a hint of lavender. Stained with blood.

I'm sorry but I love the visual of Carolyn stomping up and down on Michael's VCR.

[quote] It was white with a hint of lavender. Stained with blood.

I’m sure the lobsters in the ocean were impressed.

This is an excerpt from "What Remains..." Carole Radziwill's book on the last days of John's (and her husband's) life. She was a NY housewife. Never realized she was at the center of JFK, Jr.'s whole world. She's gone through a lot in life. Sad.

I always wondered how Carole Radziwill, who I only knew as someone on RHONY who wasn't afraid to take on Bethenny Frankel, and that she was worth $50M. ?? She grew up on food stamps. Now I know why.

There was no money for Anthony Radziwill. Jackie knew her sister's kids would end up broke. She gave them each trust funds, but nothing to Lee.

Jackie on Assistance gave trust funds?!

Interior of Piper Saratoga II.

Wow. That’s honestly not what I expected. Much more spacious than what I thought it would be.

Then again, I’m sure it was even more spacious when the roof was shorn off.

Remember thinking why in the hell would John drive a Hyundai. Then I thought, of course he would. No one would expect to see JFK, Jr. in a Hyundai..

After us Boomers die off do you think people will remember JFK, Jr. or will he fade off with us?

That should be "After we Boomers" (Anticipating Marian...)

[quote]And as for their disagreement over whether or not to have children -- holy shit, wouldn't you think this is something they would have discussed BEFORE getting married?

I also find that extremely weird R158. It's not like picking out a china pattern or something. It's kind of a big part of the equation.

Carolyn had a unique attractiveness and she was certainly stylish but I don't think she was a very good match for him emotionally. I think they were both the types that needed to be nurtured and made to feel special and that gets a bit sticky when you are in a relationship together.

I don't think they really discussed having children before they got married. I think he just assumed that after they got married they'd have a family. Surprise! Carolyn was in no rush to have a baby. She didn't seem to be a maternal type at all; she seemed very self absorbed. It's strange; it seems there was quite a compatibility problem between them. So how did they get married? I think it was just a case of both of them being bowled over by the glamour of each other. But a marriage based on glamour isn't destined to last.

A DLer from a long time ago wrote that he knew both JFK, Jr. and CBK. He was upfront about claiming he was not friends with them but through his work he was fairly well- acquainted with them

He said that JFK, Jr, for all that he grew up in NYC in the since the 60s, actually was rather sheltered and naive about the world. CBK, otoh, was much more sophisticated, worldly, sharper mind, much more personality than JFK, Jr. And rumor has it she was was well acquainted with night-life and tweaking.

He thought she definitely had the upper hand over him and that he was much more deeply in love than she was with him.

That sounds about right to me. People Magazine published papparazzi pix of both of them right after they started datin. One of the pix showed them on a boat, her standing straight and tall while he was bent over, holding her shorts while she, in a bikini, was going to step into them.

I new right then and there she had him wrapped around her finger.

If they had lived, by now she would have long ago dumped him, bored outta her fucking mind with him, and be on her 3rd or so hedge-fund billionaire.

JFK, Jr. was dull and that was masked by his looks, and, well, being JFK, Jr.

I watched Larry King, Oprah and Barbara Walters interview him and my first impression only was reinforced. That is, when I closed my eyes and deliberately set aside he was JFK, Jr and just listened to his answers, there was no getting around it- JFK, Jr. was a bore.

There are other photos of them where they're screaming in each other's faces. After that brouhaha (I think she threw her engagement ring at him) he was crushed and another photo of them afterward shows him sitting on the sidewalk, he head in his arms, sobbing, with her standing up and looking down at him in pity., Oh my God. What a relationship.

Speaking of her engagement ring....I've never seen a very good photo of it. In fact, photos supposedly of her engagement ring show different rings. Which one is the engagement ring? You'd think a big deal would have been made of exactly what it looked like. Jackie Kennedy's engagement ring was quite well documented; it was this big emerald and diamond rock. Carolyn's, whatever it was, seemed to be much more modest.

It wasn’t much to look at, to be honest.

It wasn’t much to look at, to be honest.

All I have to add is thank God Jackie went first.

[quote]It was white with a hint of lavender. Stained with blood.

Sort Delayed and Dashboard.

[quote] Greek Gods were a legend from their mythology. And yes, in that mythology, they were all gorgeous with bodies to die for but in the real life Greeks aren't that hot. When Turkish invaded and colonized Greece they took after the Turkish.

True. Modern Greeks have a lot of Turkish, and Turks are ugly. Ancient Greeks looked a lot different, they were different ethnic stock than modern Greeks.

My sister later became friends with a pre-RHONY Carole.

He has such nice thick hair!

Of course they talked about having kids before marriage but she was just probably stringing him along, making him think she was gonna squeeze out a few for him.

She sounds like a mental case. No wonder he preferred to spend time at the office and not with psycho bitch

[quote]I don't think they really discussed having children before they got married. I think he just assumed that after they got married they'd have a family. Surprise!

If that's true, then they were both childish idiots.

[quote]Of course they talked about having kids before marriage but she was just probably stringing him along, making him think she was gonna squeeze out a few for him.

If THAT's true, it was despicable on her part.

[quote]She sounds like a mental case. No wonder he preferred to spend time at the office and not with psycho bitch.

Agreed, I'm only surprised that this was not evident to him before the marriage. In all that I've read about Carolyn in this thread and elsewhere, she really does come across as a deeply damaged, severely neurotic if not psychotic human being who literally destroyed her husband's life, and her own, and that of her sister through her own outrageous narcissism and utter selfishness.

He looks good for 60.

I've asked before on DL why some men seem to be attracted to psycho bitches, controlling and domineering women who get emotionally out of control fairly easily. Yes I read Michael Bergin's book and he makes way too many excuses for his ex's bizarre behavior.

Was once told that some men will put up with point blank bitches if she's very attractive. Rather that these types of women convince their male targets that they are superior beings. Or supposedly they're more adventurous in bed?

Wonder how much coke and other party drugs and harder drugs negatively affected her behavior? Perhaps it then was JFK Jr.s fault as well if he was a partier.

Re my previous post at R197, Are Jerry Seinfeld and his wife still happily married?

We were definitely robbed, he would have been a great President!

Her engagement ring was a sapphire and diamond eternity band. I believe it was based on a ring his mother frequently wore that Jackie called her “swimming ring.” Carolyn wasn’t thrilled with it.

I think I read this in Carole’s book. There are some blurry pictures of it online. Very understated.

[quote]I've asked before on DL why some men seem to be attracted to psycho bitches, controlling and domineering women who get emotionally out of control fairly easily.

My brother and his wife were like a lower-mid-class JFK and Carolyn. (He was a FedEx driver; she was a nurse.) He's always been a sexy dog and in demand. Previously he'd been married to another controlling woman and they had a kid. Then he met psychobitch II and that child wasn't important anymore. She had movie star looks and a personality to light up a room. Dynamic and unpredictable, she was also sneaky, jealous and controlling. No matter. Her every Facebook utterance is liked by everybody. She has great style. Their two boys are beautiful. Like JFK, he was attractive enough to be able to have had just about anyone. But he's laid back and doesn't like to express his opinion or take stands. She does. He likes the fact that she is vocal and sharp, and expresses his own silent motivations so articulately. But she is always feuding with one family member or another who confronts her on small as well as big things. Reminds me of the dynamic between Caroline Kennedy and Carolyn. They did not get along because she thought her brother gave in too much to her Type A personality (and lateness -- 2 hours at her own wedding!). But let's face it, people are shallow, and looks always have a LOT to do with it. If a guy can score a woman who is not only beautiful but has a brain and style, he's gonna go for it.

For a sense of how JFK, Jr. may have looked at 60, here's his Uncle Ted at the age at which JFK, Jr. died ...

... and (after losing a lot of weight for his re-election campaign), Uncle Ted at 60.

Ted was always the little chubby Kennedy and his character and charisma couldn't touch JFK, Jr. It's those Bouvier genes that made the difference.

I remember reading that JFK Jr could have had any woman he wanted and CBK played hard to get, it was a challenge for him.

After losing his baby fat, Ted was thought by many to be the most handsome of his brothers. At least more handsome than Jack & Bobby, if not Joe.

In the video about John and Carolyn it was clear she was extremely popular among the "aristocracy" because she was not intimidated by people of power and wealth. It's why Calvin Klein put her in charge of the celebrity clientele at his fashion house. Even before this she was chased after by people like the Bennetton heir who was, like John, very rich and very handsome. Money and fame didn't seem to mean much to her, or she gave that perception, and for this she was in demand by those very people. Smart girl.

[quote] It's those Bouvier genes that made the difference.

Ah, yes, those magical Bouvier genes. Here's Black Jack at 56.

I know a guy who went to Brown when John was there. Said he didn't know his well, but he seemed like a nice guy. Said he never heard anyone say anything negative about him and that he treated women well, not like other Kennedy men, who treated women with complete contempt.

But here's the real gossip: He knew Mary Richardson (who later married Bobby Kennedy Jr) very well. Had a huge crush on her. Also knew Kerry Kennedy who was Mary's best friend. Told me that Mary was one of the sweetest and smartest people he ever met. He hates Bobby Jr. Said he destroyed Mary Richardson, who committed suicide. Said he's a sadistic bastard.

I remember after the whole Willie/Ted Kennedy rape fiasco in Palm Beach. This is when John broke from the sealed lips Kennedy style and actually went after the cousin's, and by default, Teddy's bad behavior. I worked in a law firm in NYC and one day noticed Bobby standing alone in a hallway with a smile plastered on his face like he was silently willing people to bow before him. People remain in awe of all things Kennedy. But there has been a lot of collateral damage through the years. Mostly among Ethel's kids. But then, there's so many of them.

[quote] People remain in awe of all things Kennedy.

I'm on the cusp of Gen X/Millennial and that's not the case with my generation. The Kennedy myth was pretty much shattered by the time we came around.

[quote] I always wondered how Carole Radziwill, who I only knew as someone on RHONY who wasn't afraid to take on Bethenny Frankel, and that she was worth $50M. ?? She grew up on food stamps. Now I know why.

If you watch the early seasons of RHONY, Carole was actually kissing Bethenny's ass. Carole was also really boring. Her big filming event was walking her dog.

If John Jr was still alive today, he'd still be working in media. Oprah would've given him a talk show, or he would have some primetime show on either CNN or MSNBC etc.

Either way, he'd be a fixture in the world of media for sure.

For another taste of how JFK, Jr. would've aged, here's an updated picture of Michael Bergen, who was 9 years younger.

Ooh! Michael Bergin looks fabulous. Glad he found his niche.

Michael Bergin aged horribly! He looks like a house now.

Well r211, that isn't exactly something to brag about.

r217 why not? The Kennedy mystique was a lot of bullshit. The real story came out, and it was better for everyone. Nobody should be mythologized.

Another picture of Michael Bergin.

He looked so much better than her. She always looked like a spilled can of paint. I wonder if he chose her to make himself look better by contrast.

Your photo at r220 is actually the rare instance of JFK Jr. not looking great. His suit looks too big and long and he appears to be wearing high heels.

I blame the bitch sister who went shopping and made them behind schedule. Plus all the blow couldn't have helped.

[quote]His suit looks too big and long and he appears to be wearing high heels.

Why does the coat look all wrinkled around his rib cage. I realize he is holding her hand and that probably put some tension on the fabric, but it just looks very strange that it would bunch up like that.

Their bodies were in the water for something like five days. Imagine how that must've looked.

r223, the suit is bunched up because there's too much fabric, it's too big. It makes me wonder if Carolyn knew he looked bad but needed that to make her feel prettier and more poised. Hard to believe she worked for Calvin Klein and let John go out looking like that.

R126 her Spanish isn't bad either

Another pic of Bergen, R217?! It’s the same one.

[quote] Your photo at [R220] is actually the rare instance of JFK Jr. not looking great. His suit looks too big and long and he appears to be wearing high heels.

I noticed the high heels, too.

I’ve always believed their heights were inflated.

They're not high heels. They're cuban heels.

How can you say Bergin doesn't look good for his age?! He's a hot daddy and I'd do him standing up.

How in the world did CBK get so much hot dick?

[quote]They're not high heels. They're cuban heels.

I thought they were cha-cha heels.

^Nice girls don’t wear Cha-Cha heels!

[quote] One of the pix showed them on a boat, her standing straight and tall while he was bent over, holding her shorts while she, in a bikini, was going to step into them. I new right then and there she had him wrapped around her finger.

R185, I think I remember those photos. Hard to believe she got him wrapped around her finger.

Agree with the poster above who said that, under different circumstances, he would have been a model or gone into acting. (Dated Daryl Hannah & SJP & Madonna.)

After the bodies were recovered the only autopsy that was performed was done on JFK Jr. There were no autopsies of the Bessette sisters. Why was that? Seems to me all of them should have had autopsies performed on them, just as basic procedure.

JFK Jr, Carolyn Bessette, Lauren Bessette...all young, attractive, rich, admired, envied. And they all ended up piles of putrid flesh at the bottom of the sea. What an ending for three of the worlds' "beautiful people."

[quote] I new right then

Oh fucking dear!

R236, maybe JFK Jr.'s family conceded that the cause of death (for both Bessette sisters) was JFK Jr.'s negligence. The only reason for autopsies (that I can think of) would be to determine cause of death. IIRC, JFK Jr.'s estate paid out the Bessettes' parents relatively quickly. Maybe the Kennedy family just wanted to spare them the autopsies.

r237 why don't you go flying at night and do us all a favor?

He wasn't instrument trained and flew at night. And a night that was pitch black, at that. I'm not versed in various flight procedures, but if an "ordinary" person was not instrument trained and relied on visuals only, and wanted to fly at night, would he be prevented from flying by the people at the airport? Maybe someone knows the answer to this.

[quote]He wasn't instrument trained and flew at night. And a night that was pitch black, at that. I'm not versed in various flight procedures, but if an "ordinary" person was not instrument trained and relied on visuals only, and wanted to fly at night, would he be prevented from flying by the people at the airport? Maybe someone knows the answer to this.

I read up on this a few years ago. Until the JFK Jr. crash, I had no idea that anyone would ever be allowed to fly any kind of a plane if they weren't trained to fly on instruments only. Lack of visibility is not only caused by nightfall, of course, it can also be caused by severe weather. In fact, I seem to remember reading that it started to become very foggy when it came time for JFK Jr. and the women to take off that evening, and that, due to a combination of the late hour and the weather, one or more people at the airport tried to dissuade him from flying. But, obviously, to no avail.

What was left to autopsy?

I, too, don't understand what would have been gained with autopsies. Were they trying to determine if there were drugs in their systems?

"That's impossible! They're on instruments!"

Re the autopsy, they might have wanted to make sure there were no contributing factors on John's part (drugs, physiological problems) that might've caused the accident outside of pilot error should the tragedy end up in the courts for wrongful death. The Kennedys subsequently settled with the Bessettes which closed the matter.

If anyone was at fault, it was at least Carolyn for holding things up. John had flown that trip many times in both of his planes, in daylight. It was his fault though to go ahead knowing darkness was falling on a moonless night when they took off.

Reason for autopsies:

There was a small chartered plane that was transporting about ten people. Plane crashed. Some survived, some died. One of the people who died was an older man. Autopsy showed he actually died of a heart attack, not injuries due to the plane crash. Makes a difference in the lawsuits.

Both Carolyn and her sister were late.

Not trying to start a fight here, but I don't think it matters whether Carolyn & sister were late. Ultimately, it's up to the pilot to fly or not. My understanding is that the conditions were bad to begin with. Seems like he was simply out of his range as a pilot. Also, I think the wedding was scheduled for the following day. So, they could have left later and still made it for the wedding.

Absolutely John's fault. Responsibility rests with the pilot. Period.

I heard the Bessette family got 15 million dollars from their wrongful death lawsuit.

I guess JFK Jr. ultimately gets the blame for the crash but getting started later probably contributed to what happened too. They all shared responsibility for what happened.

Ah so he had a birthday just a week or two after his father’s head was shot off. How nice for him.

[quote]Autopsy showed he actually died of a heart attack, not injuries due to the plane crash. Makes a difference in the lawsuits.

It strikes me that the realization he was about to die in a flaming plane crash might have been what brought on the heart attack,

They did an autopsy to see if drugs or alcohol were involved.

I think the Bessette’s got $25 Million payout.

R218, you are obviously a piece of gutter scum, go jump in front of an oncoming bus!

r256 why should the Kennedy myth of Camelot have been allowed to continue? They're human beings with human frailties. The Camelot stuff was bullshit. Nobody should be deified.

That late/flying at night is just an excuse. The real reason is that John was flying with those heels (seen in r220) and the heel got caught under the brake.

He was recovering from a leg injury as well as the other factors cited. Another pilot offered to go up with him but he refused. An avoidable accident caused by hubris.

If he became President at any point. How would he have handled the War on Terror, The Great Recession, North Korean conflicts, LGBT rights, rise of Right-Wing Evangelism, COVID-19 pandemic and police brutality? So much to speculate

Iirc, the "paper of record", the NY Times, published that their sources disclosed that CBK's and Lauren's family received a settlement amount of 66 million dollars - $33,000.000 for each daughter.

Apply whatever credibility you want to those figures, but that sounds about right to me in this instance, even though I'm one who thinks that parties to these settlements where media interest is high mutually agree to keep the actual figure sealed but agree to leak a certain amount to the media that encompasses some truth.

For example, I'm skeptical that Christina Onassis settled for $26,000,000 with Jackie O. I think it was higher, but both parties agreed to "leak" to the press that amount for whatever reasons they had to do so.

It's just me, and what do I know, but I think part of the reason Caroline Kennedy paid readily, quickly and generously is because a protracted, ugly, negotiation had the potential for info to to be publicly discussed in the media at the embarrassing, damaging, colossal misjudgment by JFK, Jr in deciding to fly.

Avoiding that was worth every penny to Caroline, I would surmise.

And, according to credible reports, and it may even be in the NTSB official report (I haven't read it, but it's available) that, the fatal evening, an experienced, instrument trained pilot cautioned JFK, JR. about conditions and suggested he not fly and perhaps even tried to persuade him not to fly, or, to let him fly for them, but JFK, Jr, declined.

What is it with Kennedys and planes? Joe Jr.'s plane (basically a flying bomb) exploded over the English channel on its way to England. He was done with service and took the challenge even though he didn't have to. Then Kathleen (Kick) died on her way to the South of France after convincing a pilot to take her after being told not to fly. Teddy Kennedy broke his back in a plane crash. And finally John Jr. Don't understand why he would fly alone, at night, esp. when there was a skilled instrument instructor whom he could have taken along. If a Kennedy asks to take you flying, take a taxi!!

Oops. Joe Jr. on his way to Germany, not England.

[quote] What is it with Kennedys and planes?

And don't forget the Skakels, Ethel's family. Her parents were both killed in a plane crash, as was her brother in a separate crash years later.

The 39-year old widow of Ethel's plane crash victim brother died less than 8 months later, choking on a piece of meat.

So many upper crust types have died in plane crashes. I asked an attorney friend who specializes in trusts and estates and has many such clients. He told me that in some of these cases (not the Kennedys but other "blue bloods") it is no accident, in other words a way to commit "suicide" without the stigma and leftover messiness for family to find. But these Kennedy tragedies. It really does seem like a curse.

JFK Jr would have been a great President, too bad he didn't get the chance.

Wouldn't the bodies have been shattered by a crash like that?

I don't think JFK Jr. was that smart. Obviously (Bush II and Trump), you don't have to be intelligent to be POTUS. JFK Jr. would have needed a strong cabinet and would have had to listen to them. If it's true that someone told him not to fly / offered to fly the plane for him, then it looks like he didn't listen.

Conflicting reporting on the decision to fly... in this piece, John John doesn't want to fly and it's the women who pushed him to.

R209, Here's Mary Richardson Kennedy . . .

JFK, Jr. appeared to be a pretty humble and grounded(no pun intended) guy, given his birthright.

Here he is arriving in a Boston taxi at the rededication of the JFK Library in 1993, one of Jackie's last public appearances.

[quote] One of the people who died was an older man. Autopsy showed he actually died of a heart attack, not injuries due to the plane crash. Makes a difference in the lawsuits.

That family must’ve had one of those hi falutin Sears lawyers, because r253 nailed it.

But for the fact he was about to go down in a fiery mass of molten metal the heart attack wouldn’t have occurred.

[quote] Ultimately, it's up to the pilot to fly or not.

Or he could listen to his goddamn client and get this bird off the ground. What could go wrong?

[quote] What is it with Kennedys and planes?

Precisely why Jackie on Assistance prohibited him from taking flying lessons.

[quote] choking on a piece of meat.

I’ve done that.

It doesn’t kill you.

He should've listened to the people at the airport who told him not to fly. Because of who he was, he lived by a different set of rules than the rest of us and thought nothing could affect him.

As the above poster said it doesn't matter how rich or famous you are or what rarefied social strata you live in, you can still end up as fish food at the bottom of the ocean just like the common people.

The Kennedys were always reckless risk takers. They never thought anything bad would ever happen to them coming from such a rich, revered family, which is why they keep doing stupid things that cause scandal or even death.

[quote] JFK Jr comes off as a beta guy

Like you and your puny cocklet?

R261 Actually, the DailyMail did a story on the settlement money Jackie received from the Onassis estate recently, and for years it was reported to gave been $26 million. But in fact, it turns out the real settlement amount was really $20,500,000 instead of the $26mil that's been reported for decades.

The Daily Mail showed actual documents that showed the real figure of Jackie's settlement. The lawyer that handled the negotiations for Jackie died and the records were found, and made it's way to the Daily Mail. It was either 2019 or 2020, but I know it's a more recent story that was posted on the site.

I would post it, but I'm not sure how too. Just Google it. It was a pretty interesting story, I felt like I was reading something I was never meant to see. But the documents were right there on the DM.

I think the whole trip to the Cape was designed to squelch the rumors that John and Carolyn were headed for a divorce. So that added an extra urgency to the trip. John was living in the Stanhope, trying to rescue his magazine as well as his marriage. Lauren seemed to be the most down-to-Earth of the three. You'd think she'd say let's call it a night and set off in the morning. It's a 90 minute ride up to the Vineyard from NJ in a small plane and if they left at 8:30, in mid-summer the sun must have been about down, 9pm at the latest. It just makes no sense. It never has. Except for extreme stupidity. I can imagine the last minute in that plane. John being confused by the indicators, thinking he's flying straight, while the engine is making a high whine from the RPMs and then Whammo!

$20,500,000 is worth about 88M in today's money, so I'd say that worked out very well for her.

[quote]$20,500,000 is worth about 88M in today's money, so I'd say that worked out very well for her.

How much was she making as a book editor?

I actually think JFK jr was rather smart because he didn't get any random hoe pregnant.

That's the one thing about John that was pretty amazing. He could have any girl he wanted but wanted an actual relationship. Also, he probably didn't want to be compared to his father who would fuck a lamp post.

Yes, $20 million was a princely sum in the 1970s.

Did they know they were about to crash? I can't even imagine.

I don’t think so, r287.

Spatial disorientation that affects the pilot wouldn’t likely be noticed by the passengers since there’s no horizon for a frame of reference. It’s like flying into a mountain at night. You’d have no idea what hit you.

If so then that's a small blessing r288. At least they didn't know what was about to happen.

John would've known. The altimeter and air speed indicator along with the high-pitched whining of the redlined engine would have alerted him, but probably only in the last 30 seconds or so.

Thirty seconds is a long enough time under the circumstances.

[quote]John would've known. The altimeter and air speed indicator

What does it mean that he wasn't instrument trained? Would he have even known what these indicators meant? I thought he was just trying to eyeball everything and as it grew dark, he couldn't see where he was going.

[quote]I actually think JFK jr was rather smart because he didn't get any random hoe pregnant.

But he mostly dated famous women who weren't going to have a child by him due to their careers. Sarah Jessica Parker, Madonna, Daryl Hannah. He didn't run in skanky hoe circles.

[quote] I actually think JFK jr was rather smart because he didn't get any random hoe pregnant.

Nor, apparently, did his father.

Instrument capability means the pilot could fly the plane without looking out the windshield and just staring at the dash display. John would have been aware of the altimeter and airspeed indicators which are basic rudimentary Visual Flight Rule every pilot is aware of.

So he would've known he was about to crash, r295?

Oh he knew something was up. Or down. He was likely completely disoriented and very frightened, especially when the plane began to redline, lost altitude and gain airspeed in those last 30 seconds.

Thirty seconds to contemplate his impending doom is more than his father had.

I read somewhere that the plane was equipped with autopilot. I wonder, if this is indeed, true, why did he just not use autopilot?

Thank you, John, for ridding the world of Carolyn!

I think the plane had a version of autopilot that would only have maintained it at a set altitude but the pilot would need to take it into the airport by himself. By the time John turned to the right it went into a fatal graveyard spiral. I read it was descending at a whopping 5,000 feet per minute during those last moments making it uncontrollable so there was really nothing he could do to correct it. I also read that in the last 14 seconds the plane flew at greater than top speed straight into the water, which was like dive-bombing into a concrete wall. Hello Pearly Gates (and Jackie standing there shaking her head and saying "I told you so!")

Using the autopilot would have likely bought him time to radio a nearby tower and explain that he was in distress with no horizon visible and that he needed help bringing the plane down, if he'd been smart enough to do that. Big if.

People blame Carolyn for arriving late, but they all arrived at the airport at about the same time. It was reported that John was taking both Ritalin for his ADD and Vicodin for his leg pain. A bystander at the airport also noticed he was carrying a bottle of wine in a paper bag that had been opened and recorked. A pilot who had flown down from the Vineyard told him he should delay his flight until the inky, moonless conditions changed. He said, "No way. I'm late already."

Can someone explain what happened? Did he flip the plane? Was it that he just couldn't see the horizon and it was too dark for him to see anything?

He crashed.

R292, when I was taking Instrument flying lessons, I had to wear a hood that obscured all my outward vision. I could only see the plane’s gauges. Flying IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) you have to keep the plane level, at the correct altitude, the correct speed, the correct direction, monitor fuel, radar, etc. etc. It requires continuous eye movement between numerous gauges, constantly making minute changes. It’s incredibly difficult.

Anyhow, after flying IFR for a few minutes... and thinking I was doing great... the instructor told me to remove the hood. To my shock I was flying the plane almost upside down and didn’t even feel it.

If JFK Jr. was inexperienced with IFR it’s no wonder he crashed. It takes hundreds of hours to perfect the skill. And if he was licensed for only VFR (Visual Flight Rules; ie. only perfect visibility) he was breaking one of the FAA’s cardinal rules.

R306.... was that in the air or in simulation? Creepers.

Additionally from what I understand, the challenge to master is as well the ability to fight off what your other senses are telling you, because in zero visibility you are apt to imagine and sense something much different than the actual state of affairs, but that it is almost impossible unless fully trained and completed confident to ignore what your brain is telling you (and increasingly your fear) and rely only on the instrument panel.

That's the great question: did he keep it to himself or were they all screaming in terror at the end? Shouting at each other? In his rising fear did he shout at them to shut the fuck up because they were talking and he was trying to think? What a way to go. I honestly can't think of many worse ways to die than in good health but utter terror and worse, not really know what was out there, what was happening, even if you knew what was going wrong. Terrible way to go.

I read that maybe when he looked down at this instrument panel, the crystals in his inner ear got all messed up causing the spatial disorientation.

Yes. It's all about the inner ear when you're flying in conditions like that. That's where the disorientation comes from and tells you things are fine.

So hot, and then so cold.

R307, yes, we were in the air in a small Piper Cherokee. Luckily I had the instructor sitting next to me, monitoring everything. I eventually gave up trying to get IFR rated. Flying was only a hobby for me and I wasn’t interested in risking my life flying instruments.

By the way, the plane JFK Jr. was flying was a high-performance Piper Saratoga II. They have retractable gear and a cruise speed of 183 mph and a stall speed of 66 mph. That’s a fast and powerful plane for someone not overly experienced. At that speed, things can go wrong quickly. And with only one engine, there’s not much room for error. Check out the Saratoga’s complicated panel in the pic.

Actually the instruments in the pic at R311 don't look all that complicated and I've never flown a plane (except for maybe five minutes with my father while he was sitting next to me). And then there's beeps and flashing lights (and sometimes even pre-corded voices) to alert you to the dials you should be watching. There was probably a cacophony of sounds in John's cockpit near the end.

R262, it seems that JFK Jr. had a reckless streak, which may have been a family trait. I remember reading that when he was a young man, years before the plane crash that killed him, he had taken a boat out on the water on Cape Cod even though the forecast was for very bad weather. Sure enough, bad weather did roll in, and he was gone for hours -- so long that his family feared and even assumed the worst. Then he almost miraculously returned, but it certainly seems to have been a very close call.

I could've flown him to Martha's Vineyard, all he had to do was ask. He would've been very, very safe with me!

Actually, John Travolta does seem like a very careful and safe pilot.

[quote]The altimeter and air speed indicator along with the high-pitched whining of the redlined engine would have alerted him,

I don't understand, why would the engine have necessarily been redlining right before the crash? I realize the plane may have been moving at a terrific rate of speed as it dove downwards before the crash, but wouldn't that have been due to the force of gravity rather than the engine being overworked?

JFK was definitely restless. I read a book by an ex of his, Christina Haag, called "Come to the Edge," which basically describes John constantly tempting fate and he didn't like to do it alone. She talks about their close calls. Excerpt below...

Thanks, R317. (I guess you meant to type "reckless.")

Like this description...

"He had faults, like anyone, but never arrogance, never meanness, never snobbery. What he aimed for, and succeeded some days in attaining, was the remarkable equipoise of humility and confidence that is grace."

Beautiful.

[quote] Using the autopilot would have likely bought him time to radio a nearby tower

He did contact a tower. He spoke with a guy on Long Island and when the guy eventually got no response, he threw out the napkin he had written the tail number on. (He was not a tower, he was a mechanic, so it doesn’t sound as bad as you think.)

When news broke of the crash and the media showed a picture of John’s plane, he went back into work, took the napkin out of the trash and, to his horror, saw the tail number was the same.

OMG R320.

[quote] Additionally from what I understand, the challenge to master is as well the ability to fight off what your other senses are telling you, because in zero visibility you are apt to imagine and sense something much different than the actual state of affairs,

There was a simulation done of drivers driving in fog so thick you can barely see in front of you. Surprisingly, they found that that most drivers ACCelerate instead of DEcelerate in a fog, yet the drivers insisted they slowed down.

What caused that phenomenon? The fact there were no visible trees, telephone poles, other vehicles, etc. to give the driver a frame of reference as to how fast they were going.

[quote] "He had faults, like anyone, but never arrogance, never meanness, never snobbery. What he aimed for, and succeeded some days in attaining, was the remarkable equipoise of humility and confidence that is grace."

Wonder how the Bessettes' parents felt about him. Could be a form of arrogance to fly under those conditions. People really romanticize him.

[quote] Could be a form of arrogance to fly under those conditions.

Was a form of arrogance to fly under those conditions.

Fixded.

How do we know it was Caroline Kennedy who supposedly paid out $66 million dollars to the bessette family? That's a lot of money.

Where the hell did all of that come from? I know she has money, but she had that kind of money in cash on hand? And why $66 million? That's kind of an odd number. Why not $60 million instead?

How the hell does this stuff work?

r261, Caroline easily could have accessed that cash both from her personal funds, or, as JFK, Jr's heir, from his.

Or, she could have borrowed from a bank to quickly pay out to the Bessettes. A bank, of course, would have had an iron-clad agreement to attach whatever cash JFK, Jr, had so they could be re-paid once his estate was settled and his money distributed.

So, Caroline Schlossberg would have had no problem accessing that cash to immediately pay a lump sum or installments to the Bessettes.

She wasn't personally responsible for his act of crashing that plane, of course, but, as his only immediate family, she'd have had to handle any lawsuits anyway.

I believe JFK. Jr. died with a will which had his wife was his main heir ( I think his will bequeathed money and some things to his sister and nieces and nephews and to his long-time cook and butler, to use an antiquated word).

Well, obviously, CBK, being dead herself, wasn't around to receive any things or monies from her husband's accounts so it was on, his sister, as his only immediate family member to settle things.

I know nothing of Caroline Schlossberg's finances, but I find it very easy to believe she could have written a check for $66, 000, 000 with ease out of her own funds and then be paid back from her brother's estate.

Perhaps there are Dlers here who are money management accountants that could correct me at r326 if I'm way off base.

Also, JFK, Jr.'s will is accessible. As for the $66,000,000 million amount, that is the amount, iirc, that was published in the NY Times.

One last comment on the settlement- JFK, Jr had insurance on himself and the plane.

But would insurance pay out due to recklessness? If the conditions weren’t appropriate for an inexperienced pilot, are they required to pay?

JFK did not have insurance on the plane as he hadn't finished the training to be able to be granted insurance.

[quote] But would insurance pay out due to recklessness? If the conditions weren’t appropriate for an inexperienced pilot, are they required to pay?

If they’re part of the settlement, yes. That’s why you have settlements instead of taking it to litigation. The plaintiff may have said “the insurance won’t pay shit on this because of that, let’s settle, and the insurance company could be thinking “I don’t know if that argument will fly with a jury. They may say we shouldn’t have insured them then. Let’s settle.”

See?

"How do we know it was Caroline Kennedy who supposedly paid out $66 million dollars to the bessette family? That's a lot of money."

I don't believe the Bessette family got anywhere near a $66 million dollar payout. Oh they got some millions alright, but that number seems highly exaggerated.

After reading this thread I was inspired to re-read "Come to the Edge" by Christina Haag, JFK, Jr's girlfriend from college. It's really good. Follows them from Brown (they roomed with Christiane Amanpour), up through visiting Jackie at her place on Martha's Vineyard. going to Caroline's wedding, etc. She writes about how Jackie kept in contact after they broke up and John started dating Madonna. She told her, "I liked Speed the Plow but Madonna was just TERRible. Get John to take you to see it. And go backstage afterwards." Jackie wasn't a fan of the Material Girl. But Christina didn't have the "It" factor to hold onto him I guess. I think John wanted an Alpha girl. One thing that stood out. He asked her to pick their first vacation destination together. She chose Cumberland Island -- the place where he eventually married Carolyn. Maybe she looked too much like Mummy.

Jackie thought that John would be gay because he didn't have good male role models around him. He doesn't come off as gay, but definitely like a preening peacock. Academia was not his strong suit by far, getting left back so he was a year behind his peers, flunking the bar twice and only passing it after being heavily tutored and taking it in a private room that Jackie arranged for -- which is only given to students with learning disabilities. In his case, dyslexia. Still, in matters of character, he had it in spades. Not a trace of snobbery and he formed long-term attachments to girlfriends, not one to jump around like his friends. In this way, he impressed his mother.

When he was a toddler but after JFK was killed, he asked a man "Are you a Daddy?" The man said "Yes, I am." "Then would you lift me in the air?" The man complied, tossing him up just for a moment, like his Daddy did. Made me so sad to read that.

After JFK's death Robert Kennedy acted as a surrogate father for JFK Jr. Jackie became VERY attached to him. Some people even said they had an affair but I doubt that. Still, Jackie maintained a close relationship with him. Ethel obligingly told her "I'll share him with you."

They could have hired a personal chauffer to take them to Martha's Vineyard. We as human beings have to be aware of our weaknesses.

Re R334... I guess if you look like that when you look in the mirror, you come to appreciate the facts as they are.

I wonder how he got to be so nice because his mother... well, she seemed to have an appreciation of her place in an old school sort of way, didn't she? And Lee was just a snobby cow.

In "Come to the Edge," Christina talks about being in Jamaica and how John put their lives in danger while trying to make land in a collapsible kayak. They had a small area where they could get in between two treacherous reefs to a beach. They almost capsized but made it in. When it was time to leave, John tried to push them back through the same passage but the breakers swamped the kayak. He started screaming at her to start bailing the water out but they nothing to bail with except their hands and a baseball cap. It sounded like a very harrowing escape. and it also seemed John had no qualms about putting other people's lives in danger.

R339, that's a very telling story. I had read about JFK Jr.'s reckless streak, but the examples I read did not involve putting other people's lives in danger, only his own. A very sad and, of course, ultimately tragic personality trait.

From "The Day John Died"

Apparently our Johnny was quite the exhibitionist...

"At Edgartown on Martha's Vineyard, locals accused him of walking around town wearing only a towel around his waist and coyly letting it slip. "He loves to walk around in the nude," said Couri Hay, who worked out at the Aspen Club in Colorado when John was there. "He walks around in the gym with his bathrobe open, and when he takes a shower he leaves the curtain open." According to Hay, John skinny-dipped at a Hyannis Port pool party, then strolled around nude while waiters served guests drinks. Hay wound up thinking JFK Jr "could have been a porno star."

Damn, I obviously joined the wrong gym back then.

To be fair R341, if I had a body like he did I would want to show it off too.

R342 is President of the Nation of the Obvious.

I guess he's not coming back to save the US from Hillary and the Pedophiles

Did anyone ever find out how much the Bessettes settled for in terms of $$ because the negligence of JFK Jr. in taking the plane up that night was astronomical. At least a couple of people at the airport that day commented on the murky conditions and suggested he call it off. John had only a minimal knowledge of instrument flying and he really didn't know all that much about his new plane. On top of all that, he could have switched on the auto pilot and the plane, from what I've read, would not only have piloted itself toward the Vineyard, but would have landed it as well, though it would've required some pilot assistance which he, with his limited knowledge, was incapable of. Daredevil idiocy.

There was a report the Bessette family settled for $15M, or $7.5M per kid. A judge ratified it within days, probably per Kennedy pressure tactics. The Bessettes wanted her to be buried with John at Arlington but was refused. The burial at sea was a last resort.

Wonder where John would be by now if he'd lived. Looking back over the last presidents (and their abilities) he'd definitely have made it to the White House by now. Shame.

Where would he be now? Still drifting along, I suspect. He would also be divorced from Carolyn; I think the two of them divorcing was an inevitability. Would he have gone into politics? Maybe. If he had it would be for certain he would be elected as a Senator; he wasn't very bright but he was a Kennedy, THE Kennedy, and that would have got him elected. But none of it matters now. He's been gone a long time, gone due to his own recklessness and incompetence.

AWG.

r348 He wanted to run for governor in 2002, i think if he won that he probably gets the nomination in 2008.

I think he'd be in the White House by now.

In the West Wing.

I don't think he had the ambition to be President. I don't think he had much ambition at all.

He would have been a great President, not to mention the hottest. Biden is ok, but the reality is, he is simply too old to be President.

[quote]Biden is ok, but the reality is, he is simply too old to be President.

Another fool repeating something he's heard elsewhere, as if that means it MUST be true.

Biden is 78, by far the oldest President at the beginning of his presidency in history. He will be lucky if he can make it through 4 years and of course, forget about 8.

What do you mean "would?" He is alive and is coming out of hiding any day now!

R357, I know how old Biden is. Reagan was 70 when he was elected for his first term, and 78 at the end of his second term. Biden is only FOUR YEARS older than Trump. I don't consider those differences in age to be as vast as you do. And anyway, it depends on the individual. I would say that Regan showed far worse signs of senility or Alzheimer's or whatever during the latter part of his Presidency than Biden has shown leading up to his election. And of course, Trump's evil nature and pathological lying more than outweighed the fact that he's a little younger than Biden. So, excuse me, but what the fuck is your point?

"He would have been a great President, not to mention the hottest."

The idea of JFK Jr. being President is laughable. He was so DUMB. That's all America would need, another dumb as a rock President.

People are thinking that if a moron like Trump can be president then JFK Jr could have been. But that is one hell of a low bar. John Jr was average in intelligence, possibly had ADHD, and no political experience for any political office. Why would anybody want to see him as president. I want the president to be experience, and be smarter than me.

Any Kennedy would have been a great President. America was robbed with the assassinations of JFK & RFK and of course, Chappaqidick unfairly wound up costing Ted the Presidency.

I was in Islamorada in the Florida Key when this happened. Me and a long ago partner watched in horror all the coverage on TV. It was unbelievable. How could this happen to people that have so much of everything.

[quote]Ah so he had a birthday just a week or two after his father’s head was shot off. How nice for him.

He had a birthday a few [italic]days[/italic] after his father was killed.

JFK died on 11/22 ~~~ JFK Jr. was born on 11/25

"How could this happen to people that have so much of everything."

Being young and rich and famous doesn't make one immune from tragedy. And it happened because John-John was such a reckless oaf.

Jackie insisted on following up on the plans for her son’s 3rd birthday party, even if it was after the burial service that very day.

[quote] and no political experience for any political office.

When he died, yes. Had he lived I think in the intervening years he would’ve gotten into politics and had some experience.

I think JFK Jr. could have hopscotched his way to the presidency very easily. Mayor, Governor, President. Why dawdle in the Senate.

JFK , Jr. would not of gotten into politics. He didn’t need to be more famous. And he wasn’t too bright. Not like his father.

The idea of him as President is nauseating. He was a dumb cluck. All surface appeal, but no real substance at all.

You are nauseating, R369 dumfuck! Go jump in front of an oncoming bus!

R370 wants to suck John John's shriveled, rotting cock. What a freak.

America's Prince Charming.

[quote] would not of gotten into politics.

Oh, DEAR!

Would not “of”?

R373 that’s all you got? 😂

Oh, Dear!

[quote] Me and a long ago partner watched

Oh, my!

John was wealthy with $100 million in the bank. He didn't need to go into politics etc. He could've been a journalist and traveled, been a international photographer and lived his life doing whatever he wanted.

When you have as much money as he did, why work so hard? Work a little, but I'd be busy living my best life. That and putting something positive back into society. Maybe he would've ended up on cable news television. Maybe MSNBC? With his own show possibly, in primetime?

Either way, I'm sure things would've worked out for him period. I don't worry about people like him, things tend to work out for them. I guess until it doesn't anyway.

If he had lived, he needed to go into politics. America needed him as president.

"America needed him as president."

The last thing America needed was another dumbfuck President. And John John was certainly one dumb fuck, which is why he and his ice princess wife and sister in law all ended up on the bottom of the ocean.

Seeing as how presidential elections have devolved into a charade of high school's "Most Popular Kid" (or in Trump's case "Most Despicable Asshole") I think John would have been an amazing president, if not for his intelligence then for the people he would have drawn into his administration.

He would have one of our greatest presidents and most certainly the hottest! FUCK OFF R378, DUMB FUCK!

R380 are are one insane fucktard. John John was a doofus and he would have made a shitty President.

None of you don't know what he would've done had he lived. And unfortunately we never will.