Mary Todd Lincoln

Mary had money and social connections which Lincoln needed.

Lincoln wasn't very handsome himself--let's face it.

Robert Todd Lincoln was a hottie.

She had an intoxicating vajayjay

George Washington also married for money.

I would have eaten Honest Abe's ass.

Lincoln was even less attractive, which probably played a big role in making him such a decent person and great leader.

R2 You're right. And he wore that ugly Islamic beard.

I hate it.

That dress looks like a cake.

Sally Field had to get prettier to play her though.

Wasn't she like 4'3"?

Nice women didn’t wear much makeup back then. That was for saloon girls and actresses (ie, whores)

So, Ms. Lincoln looked pretty much like everyone else in their circle - drab and aged before their time. Often with treacherous eyebrows.

R9 She is wearing a crinoline.

Ladies who wear crinolines are warning potential suitors that they must be rich enough to afford wide double doors in order to woo them.

she vas not hot piece of ass like current first lady

Don't be jelly.

This other lady from 1861 has better bone structure - but she also looks like she’d slit your throat while you slept.

So maybe Mary wasn’t so bad.

Lincoln looks like he had a long but skinny dick. You know the type.

Another 1861 angel of death.

Mary flew into a jealous rage if another woman got near Abe. He must have been packing.

“Someone please save me from this century...!”

Lewis Powell was a babe. hanged for conspiring to killing the president.

Another 1861 angel of death.

Jesus, how did procreation occur?

Everyone looks miserable.

R23, that's precisely the look of a woman who's procreated too much

Mary was quite the spendthrift!

[quote] That dress looks like a cake.

She looks like a tres leches First Communion cake.

Sally lost the Oscar to AnnE. That must have stung.

Although not conventionally handsome, Abe had a countenance that was both very warm and kind, yet steadfast and dignified. That's almost better than being conventionally attractive because you're seeing the person's inner qualities show through.

R12 You say nice women didn’t wear much makeup back then.

But they wore an excess of dust-collecting bric-a-brac on their bonnet and bodice. Now just what is that cascade of fake flowers down her dress? Is it wired, dyed cloth?

You had to stay very still for quite some time to be photographed back then.

It was much easier not to have to hold a smile which is why everyone looks so miserable in those photos.

With - from my perspective, at least - the unattractive John Wilkes Booth somehow considered the most handsome man of his era, I think it folly to judge someone’s mid-19th appearance by modern day sensibilities.

Lincoln often told this story: "I was once accosted ... by a stranger who said `Excuse me, sir, but I have an article in my possession which belongs to you.' `How is that?' I asked, considerably astonished. The stranger took a jackknife from his pocket. `This knife,' said he, `was placed in my hands some years ago, with the injunction that I was to keep it until I found a man uglier than myself. Allow me now to say, sir, that I think you are fairly entitled to the property.' "

Also, it's said that Secretary of War Stanton, frustrated with Lincoln, exclaimed "We've got to get rid of that baboon in the White House." Lincoln was told of the insult and responded: "Insult? insult? That is no insult. It is an expression of opinion. And what troubles me most about it is the fact that Stanton said it, and Stanton is usually right."

A sad story from Lincoln's adolescence:

Polly Richardson knew Lincoln in Indiana, where he lived from ages 7 to 21. Her recollection of those years is heart-breaking. It paints Lincoln as the target of unceasing barbs from girls, based on his appearance:

Yes, I was Abe's first sweetheart. He'd take me to spelling bees and play parties and to meetin' and the like, but still I can't say that I wanted him to go with me though.

Still Abe was always mighty good, and I never found any fault with him excepting he was so tall and awkward.

All the young girls my age made fun of Abe. They'd laugh at him right before his face, but Abe never `peared to care. He was so good and he'd just laugh with them.

Abe tried to go with some of them, but no sir-ee, they'd give him the mitten every time, just because he was so tall and gawky, and it was mighty awkward I can tell you trying to keep company with a fellow as tall as Abe was. But still Abe was always so good and kind I never sacked him, but bein's I didn't have no other company them days when us young folks would all start to meetin' ... I'd let Abe take me.

I'd sometime get right put out the way some of the girls treated him, a laughing and saying things, and so when we'd get off to ourselves I'd give them a piece of my mind about it. And then they'd all say that it is too bad the way we do, because Abe's so good, but they'd appear to forget all about it, for the very next time they'd do the same way. Abe wanted me to marry him, but I refused. I suppose if I had known he was to be President some day, I'd a took him.

Love is blind.

[quote] give him the mitten

This should become DL parlance rejecting someone.

[quote]just what is that cascade of fake flowers down her dress? Is it wired, dyed cloth?

I would guess it is! Maybe silk flowers sewn onto ribbon, that’s then loosely tacked onto the dress so it can be snipped off when the skirt and bodice are cleaned.

Although it could also be a special floral arrangement, sort of a real flower sash, that was made just for the day that portrait was done, and pinned into place?

That was an inauguration portrait.

R11 MTL was 5'2".

People in the 19th century were butt ugly. That’s why there were so many wars — they kept the population of ugliness under control.

She looks like W.C. Fields. Maybe she was hilarious.

She reminds me of former US Attorney Barbara McQuade.

Except I cannot imagine our Barb in a crinoline. A nice, sensible sprigged lawn in pale blue or yellow would suit her.

Her eyebrows were bomb

This is from Time magazine (2012)

———————————

[italic]Mary Lincoln had a privileged upbringing that primed her to lead the life of the President’s wife. While her husband was presiding over the Civil War, slavery issues, and massive national reconfigurations, Mary was ensuring that the 16th Presidential administration and the White House reflected a confident, progressing nation.

Though only roughly 5 feet tall, she dressed in opulent, bold dresses that were known to cost up to $2,000 each. Many of her dresses were low-cut and emulated popular European styles, particularly that of Empress Eugénie of France. Her personal seamstress Elizabeth Keckley tailored each gown to her specifications and designed many of her flower-topped headdresses.

Mary Lincoln liked to wear ball gowns with very long trains but also without shoulders and President Lincoln once remarked that he thought she needed “a little less tail and little more neck” instead. She was also known for wearing elaborate head-dresses of multiple roses, and in a letter to his wife, one Senator described Mrs. Lincoln critically, as wearing a “flower-pot” on her head.

You mean “on fleek” r40

Mary's chicken leg tea service. One of the many "flub-dubs' Lincoln accused her of wasting money on.

That is something from an acid trip.

|bvcxaJohn Wilkes Booth was very handsome, but he never made it big as an actor. His brother Booth because a big theater star, even though he wasn't nearly as good-looking.

's career survived the scandal of having his brother assassinate the president of the US, something that wouldn't happen today. Back then, the public decided that he'd had nothing to do with his brother's batshittery, and still paid to see him act.

^ He was great in Young Frankenstein. Not handsome - dude looks like Gene Tierney.

She was one hot bitch

R8, as opposed to a Jewish or Amish or Hipster beard, eh?

You sound like a moron.

She was great at pegging.

He had sex with the boyfriends.

R48 OMG! You've prompted me to google Amish beards! So creepy and unnatural!

Jewish beards are natural.

I heard Lincoln was ugly because he was kicked in the head by a horse. Ever wonder how handsome he’d look with symmetry in his face? This handsome!

OP= Donald Trump

Steven wanted me to play her in his film. I am and are regarded as the greatest actress that ever lived but even I can't play ugly. I suggested Sally. She was wonderful in the film.

My husband’s family is related to the Todds. They tease me SIL because she bears a resemblance to MTL. (She’s also neurotic).

When Kathy Bates was younger she should've played Mary Todd Lincoln in a biopic, she would have been perfect. A shame no one thought of doing that around 20 years ago.

What did I get out of this brief history lesson.?

Some old tall dude with a short wife may have died. But, the two guys who might have done it were really YUM!!!

I was attached to play Mary Lincoln in the early development stages of the film. Once Steven Spielberg boarded the production I was sacked.

[quote]This knife,' said he, `was placed in my hands some years ago, with the injunction that I was to keep it until I found a man uglier than myself. Allow me now to say, sir, that I think you are fairly entitled to the property.' "

I would have gladly taken that knife and cut that bitch!

[quote]I would have eaten Honest Abe's ass.

You wouldn't have wanted to eat anybody's ass back in those days. Think of hygiene standards in the 1800s. Ugh.

Wow r18. Imagine wearing a dress like that when you REALLY had to take a dump. Like, right NOW. Must've been a lot of messy accidents in those days.

I think Abe was kind of hot

I would KILL for that dress.

R52 are you blind? Even when symmetrical he's still not a handsome guy.

And the notion that his appearance was because of being kicked in the head is silly. His appearance was due to genetics, just like everybody else.

R64 Geez, I was obviously kidding! Symmetrical Lincoln is a dead-ringer for Cornelius from “Planet Of the Apes.”

It took quite a long time to take an exposure on a wet plate, and it's hard to keep your face frozen in a smile for that long. it's much simpler instead to have your face in repose when the exposure is so long. That's why everyone from back then looks depressed in their photos.

In truth, they were laughing and smiling as much as we did--whooping it up over rum punch and telling naughty jokes about crinolines and hoop skirts.

R60, but if you were horny enough, you would've taken Abe's log inside of your cabin.

Girlfriend was crazy.

This is the MTL I want to see.

R69, I'd love to see Gwyenth Paltrow getting her head blown off at Ford's Theater

Sally Field probably would have won a third Oscar for "Lincoln" had she just done something with the scene where she breaks down over Willie's death. Spielberg must have been intimidated by her because she's so terrific in the rest of the film, but in that scene she just relies on old tricks she did for the crazy scenes in "Sybil"--the grunting, the falling down, the low gutteral voice--and it's embarrassing because it seems like shtick. But everything in the rest of the film is freshly thought out, and her performance is terrific.

Mary Tyler Moore did a superb job as Mary Todd Lincoln in the network miniseries "Gore Vidal's Lincoln" back in the early 80s, even though she looked nothing like her.

Mary Todd Lincoln will always be a great part for actresses. From what we know, she was the most emotionally complex of the women who have been First Lady, and also probably the unhappiest.

And remember, Abe preferred men.

THE MAGNIFICENT BETTE D . ALWAYS WANTED TO PLAY MTL . WARNER WOULDN'T LET HER.

AND SHE DIDN'T EVEN NEED MAKE UP OR WARDROBE FOR THE PART !!

[quote] Some old tall dude with a short wife may have died. But, the two guys who might have done it were really YUM!!!

DL in a nutshell

Larry Kramer, we thought you had died.

Britney Spears should do a one woman MTL show, I think she’s had the life experiences that would bring gravitas to the production.

I love threads like this, and the Henry VIII thread. A great distraction from politics and what’s going on right now.

She had her own white almond cake recipe.

[quote]R71 Mary Tyler Moore did a superb job as Mary Todd Lincoln in the network miniseries

Buck never would have relied on Sally’s tired old shtick.

[quote]She had her own white almond cake recipe.

It was no Mamie Eisenhower Million-Dollar Fudge.

Pish posh! No president was as satisfied as my Ike when he was eating my Deep Dish Pie and lapping up my sweet, creamy Prune Whip!

OP = Joshua Speed

No one named a snack cake after her.

I follow some Civil War re-enactors and historical costume makers who attend balls wearing their costumes. Here’s what I learned:

Women then had their clothes held together by straight pins. If they wore an apron, it tied around the waist and the top part was pinned to the bodice by straight pins. MTL’s flowers were probably attached to a sash, then the sash was pinned to her dress with straight pins. They didn’t use snaps and a lot of the closures we use now. Sometimes they closed clothing with pins, not buttons.

Those 1860s dresses were often two piece. When you see a dress with a bodice that comes to a point in front, that’s often a matching skirt and shirt.

Ladies’ underwear had no crotch in that era. It was overlapped and crossover-wrapped, like a Diane von Furstenberg wrap dress. They wore a garter belt to attach handmade sanitary napkins made out of layered fabric scraps. If they had to go to the bathroom, they moved their underwear to the sides. They didn’t have to take it down.

Corsets weren’t really there to give you a 13” waist like Scarlett O’Hara in GWTW. It was more like a longline bra. Women didn’t always tie them tightly and they often could be fastened from the front so the woman could dress herself. You didn’t need someone to put her foot in the middle of your back and pull, like in the movies. The corsets were so stiff, it made everything smooth looking, tight or not.

[quote] If they had to go to the bathroom

IF?

[quote]No one named a snack cake after her.

OK, but Abe's oral skills made my pussy as moist as a snack cake.

Thank you R86 for putting the image of Mary Todd’s bloody fabric scraps into my head.

When I see pictures of people from the 1800s I think how miserable it would be to wear the clothing of the period. Imagine wearing these outfits in the dead heat of summer with no A/C. Jesus fuck I would've wanted to kill myself.

At least she didn’t look (and act) like an Eastern European whore

r91 not everyfuckingthing is about Trump.

I'm aroused by your post R86. Nice work.

Hey! At least Mary kept her clothes on.

Mary Todd was more than wealthy with prominent social connections. Her father gave her a good education but his remarriage when her mother died when she was six left her miserable, as her stepmother was divisive to the first six children and had nine of her own. She didn't receive anything from her father until after Mary married Abe and had Robert.

Plus, she developed and stimulated those connections through her own personality. She was intelligent, well-informed, charming, funny, engaging and serious. Stephen Douglas proposed and she was sought after by a grandson of Patrick Henry and another Springfield legislator.

She suffered from migraines and was "high-strung," but her psychological issues did not start in earnest until later. The death of their son, Eddie, left her depressed for a long time, and the death of Willy in the White House added to her stresses and depression - she came close to being institutionalizing. She was reviled as a Southern sympathizer (her half-siblings uniformly were with the Confederacy, with two brothers dying while fighting for the South in the war, as did a brother-in-law). She was alternately a spendthrift (hundreds of pairs of gloves in two months, secret deals and debts for extravagances she hid from Lincoln) and a penny pincher. Lincoln's death sent her over the edge and she never really came back. She just got worse, wandering Europe with Taddy.

When Tad died and paranoid delusions came into plain view, Robert had her tried for insanity and placed in a sanitarium for several months. In the few years she had left, she was a recluse in her sister's house in Springfield, not seen or heard from.

She appeared to have diabetes, likely overused calmatives/sedatives, and had problems with her reproductive system after her last child that appears to have ended her sex life. But more than anything, two conditions are now suspected to have been at the root of her problems. She probably suffered from pernicious anemia for decades, and she probably suffered from syphilis, a lasting remembrance of Lincoln's pre-marriage life. Her autopsy revealed a brain tumor, as well.

Be kind about Mary. Few people suffered so, and her appearance reflected it. But she had many reasons behind her suffering, additional to holding Lincoln's hand the moment he was shot.

What did MTL think of black people?

I thought it was quite telling what she said to Abe right before he was shot.

“You’ll never lay another hand on me again you no good son of a bitch!”

No one ever took a shot at Mary in the balcony.

[quote] Lincoln looks like he had a long but skinny dick. You know the type.

Yes I doo.

When Betty Ford revealed she was in recovery from alcoholism, Dan Aykroyd did a very funny commentary on "Weekend Update" on SNL about other First Ladies who were alcoholics.

In those days it had been pretty much publicly unthinkable that a First Lady would admit to being an alcoholic, so the piece went on and on with basically all of the First Ladies of the twentieth century being drunks. It ended with Aykroyd saying that back in the day, Mary Todd Lincoln would get completely tanked up at state dinners, and would jump up to the table "and, lifting her crinolines, would soil the punch bowl, all the while exclaiming, 'Look at me, look at me, Abe: you could never give me what I really wanted.'"

I enjoyed your post, R86.

I've noticed that even desperately poor women like this goldfields shopkeeper still followed the fashion for hoop skirts and crinolines—

R86 posts are great. Beautifully written, informative and emotionally evocative. I'm a fan. Thanks again.

If you want to see accurate reproduction Victorian and Edwardian clothing, including the underwear, check out the YouTube accounts of Karolina Zebrowska and Bernadette Banner.

Karolina Zebrowska is a dress historian and owns complete outfits of Regency, Victorian and Edwardian clothing. She does a good job of explaining what’s accurate and why it’s made as it is.

Poppycock

[quote]....if they had to go to the bathroom?

TMI?

Wait, so Lincoln might have been syphilitic? How long could you suffer from it? If he hadn’t been assassinated, he might have died from syphilis. Ew.

R45, I'd like to see one photo of Booth that even hints at his reputed handsomeness. I'm with R46; your pic ain't it.

All my co-conspirators tell me that I'm not very photogenic.

Now, in weak-chinned, receding hairline glory, is a real example of presidential assassin pulchritude.

Here you go.

R45 is Booth, not John. was his older brother.

The link has an interesting story about . His father was an alcoholic actor. When his father went on tour, his mother sent 12 year old to try to keep his father from going off the deep end. spent seven years as his father’s minder. When his father died of cholera, came home, only to be thrown out of the house by his mother because his father died alone. lived a sad life. His first wife died, he had an unhappy marriage with his second wife.

The bedroom picture is ’s bedroom as it was in 1893, when he died. It’s been preserved.

voted once, for Abraham Lincoln.

If you want a fictional take on Abe and Mary (and Joshua Speed), I recommend the novel COURTING MR. LINCOLN by Louis Bayard. It's about Abe's conflict between his affection (or maybe more) for Speed and his need to marry to bolster his political ambitions. It's beautifully written and quite moving.

R110, I’m still waiting.

Joshua Speed was an insatiable bottom

Mary Todd was Abraham Lincoln’s faghag

And she was cray-cray

That's why they called Abe "Lincoln Log" at the baths, because of his foot long meatstick.

The mustache did wonders. But yeah, J.W.B. really wasn't a great-looking guy. Oftentimes, a historical figure will be portrayed as better-looking than they were it makes for more interesting history.

If you look closely at pics of Jackie Kennedy and imagine her without the fancy clothes and hair, she was also pretty homely.

I like to think Mary could deliver a solid kick to the cunt bone.

She's my auntie (great, great)

I've read that John Wilkes Booth had a great smile that lit up the room.

Henry James Montague (1843-1878) is an example of a 19th century actor who would pass muster today. He's mentioned in Edith Wharton's The Age of Innocence. He appeared on Broadway in The Shaughraun by Irish playwright Dion Boucicault.

H.H. Holmes was hot. Too bad about that pesky little serial killing problem he had though!

[quote][R45] is Booth, not John. was his older brother.

John was the brother that could sing. That’s how you keep them straight.

All this time I thought we were posting about Mary Toad Lincoln.

Sorry!

[quote] Too bad about that pesky little serial killing problem he had though!

I mean, really.

One may be socially acceptable but multiple victims? It's too gauche.

Booth with his brothers in a famous photo. Junius Jr. is the third man.

once saved Robert Lincoln. This occurred between late 1863 and early 1865. In Robert's own words:

[quote]The incident occurred while a group of passengers were late at night purchasing their sleeping car places from the conductor who stood on the station platform at the entrance of the car. The platform was about the height of the car floor, and there was of course a narrow space between the platform and the car body. There was some crowding, and I happened to be pressed by it against the car body while waiting my turn. In this situation the train began to move, and by the motion I was twisted off my feet, and had dropped somewhat, with feet downward, into the open space, and was personally helpless, when my coat collar was vigorously seized and I was quickly pulled up and out to a secure footing on the platform. Upon turning to thank my rescuer I saw it was Booth, whose face was of course well known to me, and I expressed my gratitude to him, and in doing so, called him by name.

was a staunch supporter of Lincoln.

Robert Todd Lincoln also was present at and a witness of the shooting of Garfield, and also was present when McKinley was shot. He always blamed himself for not going to the theater with his parents, because he would have been seated in the back of the box, closest to the door, and felt he could have prevented the assassination. Robert was "cursed" in this way. His wife was an alcoholic and psychologically distressed, as well.

John Hay, one of Lincoln's private secretaries, is my favorite. He looked gay, lived straight, had an eminent career, and was a poet. I have a copy of his work - he should have stayed unmarried and run an antique shop. Here he is.

John Hay's most "available" photo.

I can see a little bit of Mindy Cohn in Mary Todd

R128, Mindy Cohn should've played MTL instead of Sally Field.

Yes, it has seemed very possible, if not probable, that Lincoln had syphilis and passed it on to his wife. It has been considered likely that Lincoln would have picked up syphilis from a prostitute, with one trip he took to New Orleans prior to marriage being a possible time for his encounter.

Note, too, though, that Larry Kramer claimed that Lincoln was known to frequent organized all-male "camping" trips, where groups of men would travel and go native together under the guidance of "Dapper Dan from Kansas." Of course Kramer's evidence has not yet turned up, but no one would think that Lincoln was not sexually active. I have research Lincoln's relationship with Joshua Speed without considering Kramer's biases, and the intimacy, shared fear of marriage, emotional breakdowns prior to their marriages, and mutual encouragement on how to get through the ordeal are on the record.

The risk of contracting an STD would have been higher with any sexual contacts with a person having a lot of sex with multiple partners, such as a prostitute. There was no effective treatment for syphilis, sulphur and mercury "cures" notwithstanding.

Syphilis can remain dormant with symptoms never appearing, either overtly or in a hidden manner. However, it is more usual for latency to yield to the tertiary stage, where a host of issues - many life-threatening, life-disrupting or disfiguring - can occur.

Lincoln appears to have remained unaffected, if he did have this STD. Mary's many health problems, physical and mental, are suggestive.

[quote]R130 It has been considered likely that Lincoln would have picked up syphilis from a prostitute

Or a pass around bottom.

[quote] Or a pass around bottom.

Hello, I'm RIGHT here

Who would have won in a fight -- Mary Todd or Miss Joshua Speed?

John Hay vs Joshua Speed

I remember having to write a poem about Abraham Lincoln in elementary school and I was quite proud of myself for rhyming "Booth" with "uncouth." There was also something with Nancy Hanks, but I can't remember what.

Mary once told Abe “You cocksucker! You ate all of the godamned porridge!”

Fun fact: There are no living descendants of Abe and MTL today because the last one, Robert Todd Lincoln Beckwith, had gotten a vasectomy.

Why the hell would you get a vasectomy knowing that you're descended from a historical figure as revered as Lincoln?

I would have paid for her electroconvulsive therapy, her antibiotics, her brain surgery, her psychotherapy, grief counseling, hoarding counseling, her wardrobe and her meds just to enjoy one performance of her singing "Rose's Turn" on stage with the lyrics, "Everything's coming up Mary!!!!"

For me.

For Me!

FOR ME!

FOR ME!!!!

FOOOOORRRRRR

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I remember seeing an unsatisfactory mishmash of a movie about all this

I think MTL was likely bipolar. Of course we can never know for sure. After Willie died she held seances at the White House regularly - Spiritualism being all the rage then.

Lincoln is not ugly. He does look like a wizard though. I think its the super light blue eyes and the angular face.

^I never thought he was ugly, either. Quite striking, actually, and I always imagined his gaze in real life was unforgettable.

R137, I knew the last living male descendant of President Benjamin Harrison when he was an elderly man. His son had committed suicide. Granted Harrison is not quite on the same level as Abraham Lincoln.

What do you all think about the wide spread rumors that Abe regularly beat the shit out of MTL?

^ You don't need to "beat" it out. It expels itself naturally into a water closet or earth closet or cesspit.

😝 r145

But, if she was constipated....

R144 there is no such "widespread rumor."

Oh really?

Recently, a doctor studying the medical evidence about her suggested that a lot of her symptoms amounted to something as simple (today) as B-12 deficiency. Whatever that may be, she had serious abandonment issues due to her mother's death when she was very little, followed by her father's lightning fast remarriage to a rather cold woman who didn't care (couldn't stand) her stepchildren and immediately started a litter of her own.

On top of that she married a genius with a depressive streak who sought solitude when he wasn't riding the legal circuit or politicking. The PTSD from the assassination followed the relatively recent death of the favorite son Willie. Tad's death at 16 was just too much.

On the other hand, she was an abolitionist before her husband admitted to being one and dedicated a lot of her time to visiting Civil War hospitals. But she had an irrational side, manifested at times with a literally violent temper which was "no respecter of persons."

Her insecurity was such (and her fear of lightning storms) that when Lincoln was away in Springfield she would pay the old man next door to sleep with her in her bed when there was lightning. Maybe, that wasn't as bizarre as it seems in the 19th century. Can't figure why she didn't do a Maria von Trapp and have the children join her in bed instead--maybe they couldn't sing (sin) like the old man.

Overall, she deserves to be remembered as more than "Lincoln's crazy wife."

[quote]R150 On top of that she married a genius with a depressive streak who sought solitude when he wasn't riding the legal circuit

Or, riding cock - -

R149 IDK if there's a joke here that I'm missing out on or what, but yes really, smartass.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rumor that Abe Lincoln was a wifebeater. A historical figure as prominent as he is probably has every rumor under the sun going on about him.

Hell, I could pull a rumor out of my ass right now and tell you that I heard MTL was a hermaphrodite with a 7" dick and she and Abe used to engage in nightly "swordfights."

My point is, any rumor that Abe beat MTL certainly aren't "widespread." Most people, including myself, have never heard such a thing. The name "Abraham Lincoln" is hardly associated with domestic abuse in our culture.

MTL was always, as someone said, "overdressed." She reminds me of Jackie Kennedy in that she spent money like water, even during wartime. She ran up a huge bill and wanted Congress to help pay for it. Lincoln exploded, saying it would be “all wrong” “to have it said that the President of the United States had approved a bill over-running an appropriation of $20,000 for flub dubs for this damned old house, when the soldiers cannot have blankets.” But it ended up a bill was passed to cover the costs, and MTL ended up getting her "flub dubs."

All of you people are making me cry!

R153, Jackie Kennedy married a man who'd inherited serious money. If she overspent her allowance, he could afford to make it up.

Mary grew up well-to-do, Abe grew up poor, and even as president and first lady they were never wealthy. They had what he earned, and if she spent money they didnt have it might have been Mania, pathological overspending, or just her trying to make him suffer. The last is likely enough, people do that, but IMHO pathological spending is a serious mental illness that's ignored by the mental health establishment. I've seen it ruin lives and marriages in real life.

[quote]R155 Jackie Kennedy married a man who'd inherited serious money. If she overspent her allowance, he could afford to make it up.

JFK had a trust fund, but wasn’t rolling in money money money.

Jackie sweet talked his dad (who held the purse strings) into paying her clothing bills. He was a foul old cretin, but realized the value of the publicity her image created.

A big reason she married Onassis is because she feared her Kennedy inheritance wasn’t big enough.

Mary Todd looked like she'd have a very cavernous pussy.

I find her sympathetic and misunderstood. Like Abe, her mom died and her dad remarried, only her stepmom hated the kids and was abusive (she actually petitioned her school for boarding, even though she lived nearby). She grew up in a slaveholding family, but became a passionate abolitionist. She sounded very well-read and smart, and had to overcome a lot.

I remembering reading in some biography of Jackie at how JFK exploded at her for her spending. He asked her what in the hell was she spending so much money on and she vaguely replied "clothes for the children", or some such nonsense. He told her if he didn't have an income outside of his salary as President they'd be bankrupt. She and Mary Todd Lincoln were alike in that they were both spendthrifts and they both were not exactly sound mentally.

R159, both wives were spendthrifts, but I have more sympathy for Jackie. Kennedy and his family were very wealthy and weren't generous in the matter of spending money, JFK was a penny-pincher in private. But her her fab designer looks and White House renovations really did enhance his image as the "cool president", maybe he could have loosened the purse strings a little.

Mary just spent money the Lincolns didn't have.

I live near Springfield, IL and there is a rumor circulating that AL really did beat on MTL. Who knows?

Jackie soaked the Kennedys for every dime she could, good for her.

I doubt that poor old Abe Lincoln ever "beat" his wife, although at times he probably wanted to. She was a shrew and went into hysterical, angry, fits over nothing. She would embarrass him in public. It's said that she was ranting and raving about something and he took her over to window and pointed to an asylum that could be seen in the distance and told her she'd end up there is she didn't calm down.

No he beat her to get her ass to shut up.

Actually, the only documented instances of domestic violence are by MTL directed at her husband. One evening in Springfield, Lincoln was so distracted in his thoughts that he completely zoned out of whatever MTL was talking about. She grabbed a log out of the unlit fireplace and zonked him in the nose. The next day when he went to work in the courthouse it was obvious that he had been whacked. Also, Springfield neighbors recall an instance when MTL chased her husband down the street with a kitchen knife. When she needed his attention, he was often very remote. Somehow, I sympathize with MTL in this. It's tough being married to a husband who is often practically in a trance.

In all fairness, the asylum incident that 163 points out is very sad. MTL was in shock and experiencing the deepest grief over the sudden death of 11 year-old Willie. Lincoln pointing out the asylum was a way to try to "snap her out of it." I would call that an instance of tough love on his part, at best.

So Abraham Lincoln was a battered spouse?

He did usually look a bit roughed up.

R37 Some of the young soldiers in those Civil War daguerrotypes/photos look pretty damned not.

Mary Todd only took 2 baths per Calendar year!

OP

Your snide bitchy comment about MTL actually turned into quite a decent thread. Thanks.

Good God, look at all the geegaws on that dress in the OP's pic! No doubt the dress was expensive as hell but boy it was tacky.

I knew her quite well. she was def a piece of work.

Thank you for recommending “Courting Mr. Lincoln”. I just finished it and enjoyed it very much.

The mid 1800s were not a high point of fashion, especially for upper class women. The Regency and Napoleonic styles, inspired by Greek simplicity, yielded to muffling excess. Lots of plaid on those Saxe-Coburg girls in the form of capes, wide skirts, etc. Lots of ribbons and bibbons and buttons and bows. Things didn't slim down until the New Women of the 1890s started riding bikes and playing golf and tennis, and said fuck this shit.

You're welcome, r172. I think it was sadly overlooked by critics when it came out.

He did MUCH better

She was a Yankee slut

R173 I'm sure the New Women of the 1890s didn't use those words you use while riding bikes and playing golf and tennis.

r177 = lips pursed tighter than a cat's asshole.

Mary's younger half-sister, Emilie Todd Helm. Mrs. Helm was looked upon with deep suspicion by northerners, as she was a Confederate widow. Despite being widowed at a young age, Emilie never remarried & reportedly remained in mourning for the rest of her life.

[quote]Despite being widowed at a young age, Emilie never remarried & reportedly remained in mourning for the rest of her life.

DYKE

Well there aren't a lot of pictures of people smiling or laughing, from those days, so they look unnaturally stern. Leading to a lot of misconceptions I guess.

The photography of the time couldn't record smiles, R181, to get a portrait done a person had to hold completely stock-still for as long as 10 minutes. I suppose there are people who can hold a smile for ten minutes straight without changing their expression or developing a muscle twitch, I mean look at modern politicians and beauty queens, but hardly anyone tried it in the photos of the era. Photographers just had people maintain a frozen calm, as most people can do that for ten minutes straight.

There also may have been a cultural bias against people who smile too much in those days, I've heard it talked of among history geeks. Although that may have been in Great Britain, not the US.