Susan Howard (Donna Krebbs )VERSUS Victoria Principal (Pamela Ewing) Who was the best in the show.

I will take VPS plastic surgery face over that NRA bitch any day! (But Ray was waaay hotter than Bobby for real).

I preferred Sue Ellen over both of them.

Donna Krebbs was never NOT stern and ill-humored despite having the sexiest cowbow good ol boy husband. Christ she was a downer. Sue Ellen was the one to root for--great voice, sad character given her husband, and a scrapper. Pam was Pam...not much there for many years...a milquetoast wife with great hair and a pretty smile.

r3 Wasnt Pam arguably the conscience or voice of moral reason at Southfork or would that role best describe Donna in terms of seeking the moral high ground?

[quote] I will take VPS plastic surgery face over that NRA bitch any day! (But Ray was waaay hotter than Bobby for real).

Ray was most definitely not.

[quote] Donna Krebbs was never NOT stern and ill-humored despite having the sexiest cowbow good ol boy husband. Christ she was a downer.

Donna had an idiot husband. He lost 3 million dollars or her money and let JR screw him out of his shares of Ewing Oil. Donna was wealthy, smart, relatively attractive and she married a loser.

[quote] [R3] Wasnt Pam arguably the conscience or voice of moral reason at Southfork or would that role best describe Donna in terms of seeking the moral high ground?

Pam went crazy because she couldn’t have a baby. Her character never the same after that.

[quote] Sue Ellen was the one to root for--great voice, sad character given her husband, and a scrapper. Pam was Pam...not much there for many years...a milquetoast wife with great hair and a pretty smile.

Pam always stood up to Bobbie and eventually left him. Sue Ellen married JR. He cheated on her, threatened her, emotionally abused her and drove her into alcoholism. What did she do. Divorce him and immediately remarry him so that she could go through all the same shit again. She was the ultimate doormat.

Oh my Patrick Duffy shirtless is a real treat!😘 r5

I think Donna and Pam leaving the show in the same season was a very big blow to the show I'd have preferred Donna to have lasted another season. Both leaving at once seemed too much.

Steve Kanaly was certainly rather sexy!

Victoria Principal was suppose to be the star of the show, but Linda Gray stole it right from Vicky, and got an Emmy nomination to boot!

What was ironic was that Susan Howard was a HARD-RIGHT Conservative. The character she was playing was a Democratic political strategist - so her character was also spouting off Liberal ideology - which was counter to her personal Conservative beliefs. But she is an actress and went with the flow

Susan Howard kept her political views to herself - until 1985 season. At the time the writers were planning to have her character have an abortions, because child was going to have downs syndrome. Susan Howard pitched a fit behind the scenes and wouldn't have any of it. Being a Christian and pro-lifer she complained vigorously "Why can't we ever show the pro-life point of view" - So the writers compromised, they would have the character have a miscarriage

But then that was during the dream year, and her whole years work dealing with deaf children, was trashed and the character was once again pregnant

I don't know if her conservatism led to her firing, but she was let-go as the writers felt a Ray/Jenna coupling would be better moving forward. But then budget cuts took hold and both characters were written out a year later.

After "Dallas" she went off to be the co-host of the 700 Club, and whatever remaining cache she might of had in Hollywood casting circles, was now finished after she did that.

For his part Steve Kanaly was glad they broke up Ray & Donna - it has nothing to do with Susan Howard. He really liked her and to this day they remain good friends.

His complaint was that Ray & Donna were like one character - he had nothing to act with other than "Ray & Donna against the world" - and it was usually Donna doing something political and Ray being the supportive husband.

Kanaly said his favorite storyline (outside of anything to do with the late Jim Davis) was the Ray/Jenna love story. He felt finally got out of the shadow of being just Donna's husband.

Donna (Susan Howard) goes to a honky tonk and punches the lights out of a woman having an affair with Ray!

Go 2 minutes into video

Pam (Victoria Principal) SLAPS Katharine - and look at the ANGER on Victoria's face

That is NOT acting she must have really used sense memory to be that mad

R13 none of that is particularly interesting.

I know she is a RABID republican, however, I watched Dallas reruns in high school on TNT I think? And she was one of my favorites. She was gorgeous, a good actress, she and Ray had chemistry- and she gave an EXCELLENT performance during the dream season. I dug Donna (and that big bulged Ray) She probably got FUCKED over most of all by Duffy's return.

Sorry. I dug Donna.

And my god, of course Sue Ellen and Linda Gray fucking RULES. Lovely woman, underrated actress, and to me, Sue Ellen WAS Dallas. Love that lady.

For me:

Characters on Dallas- Male and Female- Ranked

1)Sue Ellen

2) Miss Ellie

3) Donna

4)JR

5)LOVED MANDY WINGER. STUNNER. Made my gay dick just a little stiff. Love Deborah Shelton.

Susan Howard is a great actress - but it seems after "Dallas" she just wasn't interested in acting anymore

Here she does a PSA for the NRA which is a board member

Susan Howard and Steve Kanaly reunite to do an infomercial on Gun Safety for the NRA

Sorry, I know this is supposed to be a Donna (who I liked MUCH better than broody Pam) thread, but I stumbled upon an old obscure western on the Criterion Collection last week that starred a very young Barbara Bel Geddes as a gun-toting daughter of a cattleman. It was like watching a Dallas prequel about Miss Ellie Southworth! She got to pair up with Robert Mitchum, lucky bitch.

Jock Who?!?

The guy could be Digger Barnes in R22 picture

Remember in the first episode of Dallas, Ray and underage Lucy were foolin' around in the barn loft? Well, since Ray turned out to be Jock's son by another woman, that means Lucy was actually his neice (half-niece??)...which is...gross...LOL. Obv. the writers weren't thinking ahead. But I believe by the time the Ray as potential heir storyline came about, Lucy was toast.

For those who think Steve Kanaly was not hot...well, you have no discerning taste. A Pinterest frau did a compilation of pics. He actually is still v. handsome in his late 70s now. Bit jowly, but I could live with that...at least he hasn't pulled his eyes to the back of his head.

What, no Vivian Vance as a poll choice?

And Donna always reminded me of a young Miss Ellie!

Don't give a fuck about her politics (and the NRA was another gut punch!) Jesus. I leave it a there are hundreds of thousands of young southern girls being raised republican, gun nuts, etc... We live in America. Its just how it is.

She had it all. Gorgeous, great actress, and I always rooted for those supporting characters on nighttime soaps.

And FUCK, what the first season of Dallas- Sue Ellen WAS a supporting, nearly non speaking role!

And if this republican bitch had 30 minutes with me, she would love me. I have a way with those republican chicks.

R24- Ray Krebbs was the HUNK of Dallas to me. In the 90's during those reruns I was jealous as fuck of that little whore/twit Lucy!

I wanted to be up in that barn!

Not surprised at all, R24. Those eyes, those slightly fucked up teeth, he was a MAN. Duffy did nothing for me. And his "bulge" looks like a vagina. With nearly no lips. Yuck.

OMG R27 exactly!! Duff's got no bulge at all in that swimsuit pic. Either non-existent, or a schooled tucker. Ray all the way! And I totally agree - the slightly crooked teeth were dead sexy. I don't know why this current world thinks things like this should be obliterated. Natural and not perfect is always the better choice IMHO.

R28, Stick with me BITCH. I will take you to the HOTTIES and the REAL MEN.

Come along, bitch- we have been LONG delayed.

I thought Susan Howard was a great actress, and that she played a character that was a total polar opposite of herself, and very well at that, is a testament to her ability. Not a fan of her politics at all, though.

Never thought Victoria Principal was a great actress, but she did get the character and had good chemistry with most of the cast. Loved her showdowns with JR.

R29 I'll join you. Ray was super hot in the first couple of seasons. I can't with Patrick Duffy's 1970s helmet hair, he looks like an action figure.

Pam, Victoria, and Bobby- Fuck them all. Boring. Charisma free. No bulges. Especially Pam. No bulge.

I will take big bulged Gary from KL any day!

Susan Howard’s real name is Jeri Lynn Mooney, a white trash name if there ever was one.

Okay, I have Sylvia Plath Fowler, R28, and me- off to hunt some big dicked, jacked up teeth, blue eyed cowboys.

I have found my spirit twins.

Fuck. Jeri Lynn Mooney takes down Howard at least 2 notches! What a hick name! I almost feel bad for her!

Okay, I have Sylvia Plath Fowler, R28, and me- off to hunt some big dicked, jacked up teeth, blue eyed cowboys.

I have found my spirit twins.

Fuck. Jeri Lynn Mooney takes down Howard at least 2 notches! What a hick name! I almost feel bad for her!

[quote] was like watching a Dallas prequel about Miss Ellie Southworth! She got to pair up with Robert Mitchum, lucky bitch.

Robert Mitchum reportedly had poor hygiene. If I remember correctly. Barbara Bel Geddes had a very Northern accent, that always shined through in her dramatic speeches.

Don't forget Susan Howard hosted the The 700 Club and gave the daily prayer every day at end of the show

[quote] I thought Susan Howard was a great actress, and that she played a character that was a total polar opposite of herself, and very well at that, is a testament to her ability. Not a fan of her politics at all, though.

There was one scene on Dallas where her character was advocating for Universal Healthcare! This was in the early days of Dallas to show how she and Ray had nothing in common, because Ray looked so bored at this dinner party Donna was hosting with other Democratic Strategists,

[quote] OMG [R27] exactly!! Duff's got no bulge at all in that swimsuit pic. Either non-existent, or a schooled tucker. Ray all the way! And I totally agree - the slightly crooked teeth were dead sexy. I don't know why this current world thinks things like this should be obliterated. Natural and not perfect is always the better choice IMHO.

Kanaly had no bulge, no body and terribly bad teeth. Duffy didn’t need a bulge for my purposes.

No one was tuning in to see niece fucker Ray.

[quote] For those who think Steve Kanaly was not hot...well, you have no discerning taste.

Discerning is not a synonym for bad.

R39 is SATAN. Ignore her and pray for her.

Are you on COKE, bitch!??

Blech. I am praying for you.

Niece fucker...LMAO (But still team Steve/Ray)...Totally forgot abt hot as hell Gary Ewing. Remember when he had that gym and he and CeeJay (or CeJay or whatever)used to work out?? Because they had all money and no jobs? So...work out all day? Holy. That was some awesomely lubed skin in those shots on both of them. And remember when CeeJay was "converted" by Alec Baldwin/Joshua preacher hottie by the Supreme Necromancer Julie Harris/Lily-Mae? They don't make TV like this anymore bb's.

So can any passionate/avid Dallas fans remember if Donna had any run ins or catfights with other female characters? Off the top of my head I can remember her arguing with Miss Ellie over a book Donna was writing when her research for the book uncovered some uncomplimentary truths about Jock Ewing? Anything else?

Having just watched seasons 3-10 of Dallas during Quarantine, I can attest:

a) Patrick Duffy is hot.

b) Steve Kanaly oozes sex, and is so masculine (and bulging nicely).

c) Sue Ellen (and Linda Gray) is really the star of the show.

d) Susan Howard was a better actress than Victoria Principal, but Pam was a better character, who got written for better (except the baby rabies).

e) Donna was the character most fucked over by the dream season being erased.

f) Priscilla Presley was actually good her first season, and got progressively worse, which is hard to believe, but seeing is believing. She was spunky with tart line deliveries that first season, and then lobotomized progressively, until they disappeared her.

I would take Steve Kanaly any day over Patrick Duffy.

Any. Day.

[quote] Priscilla Presley was actually good her first season, and got progressively worse, which is hard to believe, but seeing is believing. She was spunky with tart line deliveries that first season, and then lobotomized progressively, until they disappeared her.

[quote] c) Sue Ellen (and Linda Gray) is really the star of the show.

If you mean Victoria Principal, her acting was consistent. The writers lobotomized her character. The writing got worse and worse for her.

The writing got better for Sue Ellen because she was JRs long suffering wife. She was however not the star of the show. She was the wife of the star. The wives are all secondary to the men. Sue Ellen got more attention because JR got more attention.

[quote] I would take Steve Kanaly any day over Patrick Duffy. Any. Day.

Good! I’m glad that you know that you’re not good enough for Bobby. Niece fucking drunk Ray Krebbs is as well as you can do.

Donna was unique on Dallas-she felt like she belonged on Knots Landing, as did Ray. As Dallas aged most of the female characters were either marginalized , diffused or written out -except Sue Ellen, who quit drinking and got a career, but only at Linda Gray’s insistence (with Larry Hagman belong to lobby on her behalf).

Donna was a strong female and that really didn’t fit on Dallas, especially after Patrick Duffys return. In contrast, Karen, Abby, Laura and Paige all had careers and had a storyline on the show that existed outside of their love interest.

r47 You don't think Miss Ellie was a strong female character?

Miss Ellie was strong until Patrick Duffy returned, then she became weaker and a less forceful presence. The Miss Ellie of 1981 or 1982 would have thrown JR out of Southfork and Ewing Oil after the BD Calhoun mess.

r49 You could be right I guess.

R46 if three inches satisfies you then you can have all the Little Bobby Ewing you want.

I'll stick with bulls like Ray, thank you

Susan Howard is a Jesus freak, while Victoria Principal dated a rock star and married a plastic surgeon.

I vote for Vicki.

Hagman was responsible for showing Executive Producer Phil Capice the door in favor of bringing back Leonard Katzman to have full reign on the show for the post dream season and onward. He was the genius responsible making the season a dream. This really cost the show much credibility and Dallas finished the season for the first time out of the top 10 since it debuted. Capice championed the women characters and most of the male characters became more sexist when he wasn’t around to champion the female actresses.

Howard hated the dream season explanation and was also shown the door due to her politics. Principal was willing to stay another season but she wanted a king’s ransom and also left. Howard I think is the stronger actor, but Principal grew better as Dallas wore on and Pam suffered more. It was a huge mistake to let Howard go. Principal had plans to leave anyway eventually, but I always thought Jaclyn Smith would’ve made a great Pam as a recast (high profile, star power). The last few years of Dallas was just a parade of blonde bimbos and what remained of the cast getting the hell out so Larry, Patrick and Katzman could be paid more.

[quote] Priscilla Presley was actually good her first season, and got progressively worse

What absolutely made no sense was Jenna anger at Bobby for choosing Pam over her. Prior to that Bobby moved heaven and earth to find her kidnapped child, and spent millions of dollars to get her off a murder rap

The very next day (yes it was the next day after Jenna was released from prison) she forgets all that and turns around and says Bobby is now the enemy because he chose Pam over her?

That is one thing that didn't make sense, and destroyed her character.

[quote] It was a huge mistake to let Howard go.

I don't understand how Susan Howard didn't see the writing on the wall about her character. They moved her character to Washington, she had NO interaction with any of the regular characters for the second half of the season, and she only had one scene a week!

They gave her less and less to do as the season wore on. She should have sensed that as the Donna character didn't even have her own set!

[quote] The last few years of Dallas was just a parade of blonde bimbos and what remained of the cast getting the hell out so Larry, Patrick and Katzman could be paid more.

1988 - Victoria Principal & Susan Howard left so that freed up money

1989 - Steve Kanaly & Priscilla Presley left so that freed up money

1990 - Linda Gray left so that freed up money

1991 - Barbara Bel Geddes left so that freed up money

R54 Jenna always had in the back of her mind that Bobby loved Pam more. Him going back to her was always a possibility. At Lucy’s wedding, Jenna sensed the spark was gone between the two, but was written differently in the post dream season and Jenna was furious when Bobby told her he was going back to Pam. I don’t think her ruined her character. Jenna did have some expectation of a life with Bobby after the prison stint. Plus Bobby told her right after she got out. It was stupid pairing Jenna with Ray. No chemistry. Presley should’ve been written out at this point.

R55 agreed. Katzman has no interest in the actress or character at this point. Dallas was death by a thousand cuts during the last four years.

Do you think Victoria Principal rimmed Andy gibb?

Don’t think it ^^^

One of my favorite Sue Ellen lines, she says to Mandy

"Well if it isn't the Winger whore. Don't tell me J.R. let you out of bed long enough to have lunch"

Miss Ellie favorite son was Gary, as she named him after her brother Garrison. I wish there were more scenes between Barbara Bel Geddies & Ted Shackelford - they have great chemistry

One of my favorite scenes where Miss Ellie tells Gary she is buying him a house - far away from Dallas

[quote] Miss Ellie favorite son was Gary, as she named him after her brother Garrison. I wish there were more scenes between Barbara Bel Geddies & Ted Shackelford - they have great chemistry One of my favorite scenes where Miss Ellie tells Gary she is buying him a house - far away from Dallas

If she had not enabled Jock and JR and their treatment of Gary. She wanted him at home, with her, but not enough to tell JR and Jock to knock it off.

Bobby dumped Jenna when she was pregnant with his baby. Of course she would be angry.

r56 All your dates are a year out Victoria Principal and Susan Howard left in 1987 Priscilla Presley left in 1988 Linda Gray left in 1989.

[quote] Bobby dumped Jenna when she was pregnant with his baby. Of course she would be angry.

She only found out she was pregnant AFTER Bobby dumped - between that time and when she found out she was pregnant, she had RAGE at Bobby. Even after she found out she was pregnant, she told Bobby he had no rights to the baby, even after Bobby said he wanted to be involved.

Jenna used the baby as a weapon against Bobby

Bobby could have tried harder to be a part of that kid's life if he really wanted to. Was he even mentioned in that horrible and humorless reboot?

Jenna was a poorly written character and was all over the map. It didn’t help that Priscilla Presley’s talents were marginal. They should have brought Morgan Fairchild back.

Also, they could have come up with a better story for Jenna after the dream. I always thought it would have been interesting if it turned out that Charlie Wade wasn’t Bobby or Naldo’s child, but JR’s.

Jenna’s father was failing financially when she was preparing to marry Bobby. Maybe JR offered to help if she slept with him, then reneged and took over Lucas Wade’s assets. Humiliated, Jenna left Texas and then found out she was pregnant. None of this is revealed until Charlie needs a kidney transplant and Bobby isn’t a match. Jenna goes to JR and that scene is the cliffhanger.

[quote] Bobby could have tried harder to be a part of that kid's life if he really wanted to.

How would that happen when Jenna moved in with Ray?

R66 No. The reboot did a good job with JRs death and finally giving closure to Pam’s disappearing. That’s the only purpose it served. Really Dallas in name only.

Supposedly Lucas was going to show up as a new character in season 4 of the reboot.

R67 Fairchild isn’t any better than Presley. I liked Priscillas take on the character. However it served no purpose after Bobby went back to Pam. They might’ve gotten Principal to stay one more year with freed up cash if they would’ve written Jenna out of the beginning of the post dream season year.

[quote] They might’ve gotten Principal to stay one more year with freed up cash if they would’ve written Jenna out of the beginning of the post dream season year.

Priscilla Presley was one of the lowest paid on that show, $13,000 an episode. Compared to $50,000 and over (per show) that Linda Gray & Victoria Principal was making, Priscilla wasn't doing Dallas for the money.

Victoria Principal said that she had to be convinced by the producers in 1985 to sign on for two more seasons because the hated the way Pam had been written since season 5.

Pam became a stronger character in the dream season, sort of like how she was in the early years-tough and capable of standing up to JR.

She devolved in her final season. Obsessed again with having a baby, constantly crying and insecure, etc,

Susan Hayward had a brain tuber so it's not a fair comparison.

[quote] Pam became a stronger character in the dream season, sort of like how she was in the early years-tough and capable of standing up to JR.

That was the original concept of the show - The first season - Bobby was to die, and it was suppose to be Pam going head to head with J.R. But then TPTB changed their minds and decided to promote the "Romeo & Juliet" angle instead.

I think one of the reasons Victoria resigned, was the chance to do the original concept she was pitched way back when the show first started.

I'll stand by saying Sue Ellen was the star attraction of the show. Once you get to the dream season, JR's entire arc is about falling back in love with Sue Ellen (who has descended to skid row in the aftermath of Bobby's death). Once that season is removed, JR becomes the central character, but the show falls apart as his ego decimates the storytelling (so JR is constantly winning and ends up with the blonde trophy wife, among other things). What kept Seasons 10 and 11 watchable was how Sue Ellen tangled with him (whether in love or war). Once she leaves at the end of Season 12, the show descends even further into lunacy.

If they let Pam go toe-to-toe with JR more, we'd have a better tolerance of Victoria Principal and her acting. She always showed up to play with Hagman. But anytime a baby was involved (first Christopher, and then Lucas/trying to conceive), it was fast-forward material.

R72 that extra that they could’ve saved with Presley might’ve been enough for another season with Pam. I understand Presley was making much less, but that money saved adds up. Principal wanted parity with Duffy. It’s not exactly like she was asking for double her salary or asking for something outlandish like Suzanne Somers did with Threes Company. The producers realized they made a mistake when they asked Principal to return a year later and she said no.

R77 in the oral history of Dallas - Shree J. Wilson (April) said she heard that Principal wanted what Larry Hagman was making - Half Million Dollars an episode.

R76 I think that Pam sharing the same ground and company with JR was the natural progression. If you look at Dallas from its early days, it had all been leading up to that. If they had any balls, they would’ve let Bobby stay dead and ended the show years earlier. Duffy returning was like putting toothpaste back into a tube. Trying to recreate the drama we had experienced during the show’s heyday, only less fun and compelling.

[quote] If they had any balls, they would’ve let Bobby stay dead and ended the show years earlier. Duffy returning was like putting toothpaste back into a tube. Trying to recreate the drama we had experienced during the show’s heyday, only less fun and compelling.

Well Larry Hagman was the ones who instigated bringing Patrick Duffy back and getting rid of Phil Capice as he wanted to return the show to the family unit.

That dream year was filled with foreign intrigue, and not about a backstabbing oil family.

R77 Wilson didn’t like Principal anyway. She’s lying. I’ve always heard she wanted Duffys salary. She more than deserved that. She did say they made her an offer to be the highest paid woman on tv. So more than what Linda Evans and Joan Collins were making on Dynasty, but they weren’t even close to Larry Hagman.

R81 Wilson and Principal didn't run in the same storyline, so they would barely know each other

The dream season did a lot for some characters (Sue Ellen, Pam, Miss Ellie, Donna, even JR to an extent), but mostly in the first half. Once Angelica Nero showed up, the show got eaten, and it's what people remember most. Pam was at Ewing Oil, but in the same sweep that ushered in the Marinos Shipping story, they sent Pam with Marc Singer off looking for emeralds. Say what?

If they stuck to the oil company conflicts with Pam and JR, with Miss Ellie continuing to actually be a matriarch (which got reduced more and more with each passing season, to the point where they were turning her and Clayton into detectives by Season 13), that season would have a better rep.

It would be for naught, since bringing Bobby back just eliminated any growth, and Bobby really did nothing for a few seasons.

R80 yeah the Anjelica Nero stuff was bad. But the first half or so of the dream season was decent. Hagman was so desperate to reclaim that number one spot, I think there was the feeling if they could only get Duffy back the show could coast on its laurels. After Bobby and JR fought for Ewing Oil, their ultimate conflict, it was all going to be downhill from there.

In that Dream Year it was weird that they had Jenna and Charlie move in with the Ewings at Southfork! I mean they had no blood relation.

If they had to keep Jenna, it would make more sense to have Jenna & Charlie move into a small cottage on Southfork grounds (maybe Bobby willed a small house to her)

But at that point, with Bobby gone, they should have written off the Jenna character as she served no purpose/

R82 they shared the same set. Just because your characters don’t connect too on set doesn’t mean you don’t know each other in real life. Wilson once described Principal as regal. Code for bitch and diva ish.

[quote] they shared the same set.

Actually they didn't, because they were in separate storylines, they barely interacted. Wilson did indeed call Principal as "regal" - but it could also be what she heard from crew members behind the scenes

The fact is Wilson & Principal only had one scene together, and it was a party scene where the whole cast was together.

R87 you’re mistaking the actors for their characters. Just because Pam and April only shared a brief scene, doesn’t mean something didn’t go down at least once between them. To say that actors don’t know each other because their characters don’t interact is untrue. And I find it weird that Wilson would use a word like diva based on hearsay.

At least when Victoria left, she stayed gone. She never had any interest in returning.

Me?

Priscilla Presley can't act her way out of a paper bag. All of that whispery delivery and Xanax-ed monotone expressions were just bad. At least Victoria Principal could get feisty from time to time.

As a kid I thought Dusty Farlow was cute. Now I'm all grown up I kind of see Ray Krebb's sexiness. And Howard Keel's. Never really got Bobby.

Ray and Donna had a daughter named Margaret.

I want Ray to fuck me

r81 Why didn't Sheree J Wilson like Victoria Principal? What was the beef between them?

Three way with Ray and Bobby!

There I fixed it, we don't have to fight over them.

[quote] Why didn't Sheree J Wilson like Victoria Principal?

Victoria kept to herself - whereas everyone loved Linda Gray as she was a very warm, welcoming person to everyone.

Sheree J. Wilson seems like she'd be a Trumper. Wasn't she on some show with Chuck Norris post-Dallas?

Yes, Wilson was in that show with Norris.

I still can't believe Howard is such a right-wing Conservative. I loved Donna. She was so grounded. Like others have said, it's a testament to her acting because she was SO believable as a Democrat.

Priscilla Presley was much better suited to the Naked Gun movies. She may not be a great actress but she was great in those movies - and not everybody can pull off that kind of humour.

I loved the dream season. I liked that there was more focus on the women. The later seasons sucked because it became the old boys' club again.

[quote] I still can't believe Howard is such a right-wing Conservative. I loved Donna. She was so grounded. Like others have said, it's a testament to her acting because she was SO believable as a Democrat.

I remember a Soap Opera Digest "Behind the Scenes" of Dallas article, and they were on location with a scene between Donna Reed & Susan Howard at an oil rig

The reporter wrote that she didn't get to see Susan Howard when she got there, because Susan was "praying" in her trailer seeking guidance from god

and when Susan emerged from her trailer, you would think she didn't have a care in the world as she was so warm and wonderful to the crew.

So I suspect Susan did a lot of prayer in her trailer before she had to scenes acting like a Democrat.

Dallas became this misogynistic, old boys club when Katzman and Duffy returned, which suited Katzman fine. Without Capice to balance this out, the show was ran into the ground. Katzman respected Gray enough to give her character a life outside of boozing, but the other women characters were disposable. Howard Keel has said he told Bel Geddes to just shut up and enjoy the payday and just do any shit the writers wanted, but she hated it and she walked too.

Sheree Wilson was a favorite of Katzman. I think there was this anti Principal contingent growing on the set during her last season. She was always somewhat of an outsider and didn’t fraternize with the cast off set. She definitely had a plan to get off of Dallas. She would’ve stayed one more season if the price was right, but she had the last laugh considering how much money she’s made in over thirty years with her skin care line. I think Wilson had a run in with her, or sensed the prevailing attitude about her on the set at the very least.

Victoria is still 37.

Principal may have been cold or kept to herself or been a bitch, but she gave the show 10 years of her life and whether they like it or not, she was one of the factors of the show's success.

Good for her for asking for more money. She and Gray both deserved to be paid near or the same as the boys.

Who the fuck did Wilson think she was?

Miss Ellie barely had any stories in the later seasons. What a joke that she wasn't even in the finale.

[quote] Katzman respected Gray enough to give her character a life outside of boozing

Linda Gray would go to the producers and say "You only give me two things to do on this show - drinking & having affairs"

And they responded to her "But you do it so well" - she told them she wouldn't do anymore drinking storylines, and that is when they came up with the "Valentine Lingerie" storyline, which Gray says was her favorite story of all time on Dallas

R103 Wilson was better as a vixen on the show. But they had to fill the nice woman character void left by Principal, so they watered her down. Plus Bel Geddes leaving for the last time was tough. Miss Ellie said that nothing could ever drive her off the ranch, but then she sells it to Bobby. The true dream seasons of Dallas were the last four which were nightmares.

However R105 the season AFTER the Dream season (which begins with Pam opening the door to Bobby in the shower) were Linda Gray & Steve Kanlay favorite season.

r106, I just watched that season, and I can see why Gray and Kanaly would love them (Gray got to kick booze, craft Valentine Lingerie, kick Mandy Winger's ass, and get JR back, while getting a few sexy shots in lingerie; Kanaly got to have a strong backbone telling Donna the marriage was over, and then pursuing Jenna in a nanosecond after Bobby left her). But the Ray/Jenna story was tacky (and not helped by how Jenna was written and acted, which made it really unclear what she wanted). Principal was completely wasted that season.

Sheree Wilson was fantastic that season in a vixenesque part, but the nicer they made her over the next three seasons, the worse she fared.

But I get the impression Wilson knew her own limitations as an actress, and that's why she was well-liked on both Dallas and Walker. She didn't make waves, and she figured out early who to be friends with.

R106 After Duffy came back it just didn’t feel the same. Asking people to just ignore all the time and emotion invested in like 30 episodes by writing it off as a dream is just bad business. The only thing I really liked was the BD Calhoun story, which made prefect sense for JR to pull something like that. Jennas pregnancy, Jock is back or not (really disrespectful to Jim Davis), even Sue Ellen buying the lingerie company storylines were underwhelming. They were just running out of ideas at this point and it showed.

Donna was one of the most interesting characters on Dallas. It was always odd to me that, despite being on the show during it's biggest years, Donna never got the same attention that Sue Ellen, Pam and Lucy did.

Does anyone else know what was planned for the Season 4 Dallas reboot?

Susan was the only one to speak up for Donna Reed on the E True Hollywood Story.

She has no blanks to give at this point.

R109. Agreed. I loved it when Donna filled in for Bobby at Ewing Oil when he was shot. She always told JR where to get off. Huge mistake letting her go in the end.

There were a lot of Donna story possibilities wasted over the years. She was the widow of a senator and stepmother of another senator, yet married to a farmhand who was also the illegitimate son of an oilman. There's tons of ripples that could have played out in there.

Hagman was always rather cordial when he talked about Howard, but I don't get the impression he held her in the same esteem as Gray. The way they wrote for Howard that last season was clear she was being made expendable.

Yeah, the 180 they did with Donna from the dream season to the return of Bobby is crazy.

I liked the story where Donna and Miss Ellie, who were usually very close, have a disagreement because Donna wants to write a book that would shed light on Jock's dirty dealings. It was a believable story because Donna would not drop something just because it made someone look bad. She was about truth and transparency. And of course Miss Ellie would only want it buried because she knows exactly the kind of person Jock was. That's why Miss Ellie was fascinating. As sweet and loving as she seemed to be, she also looked the other way when it came to Jock and JR which is why her character was believable.

I don't agree with Howard's politics at all but I do agree about how they treated Donna Reed. It was shameful.

I really hate the post-dream season. It's like a completely different show for me. I know Gray likes the Valentine Lingerie story but I hate it.

[quote] There were a lot of Donna story possibilities wasted over the years. She was the widow of a senator and stepmother of another senator, yet married to a farmhand who was also the illegitimate son of an oilman. There's tons of ripples that could have played out in there.

They already did all those stories

[quote] Susan was the only one to speak up for Donna Reed on the E True Hollywood Story.

I don't know if Susan stuck-up for Donna Reed - all Susan said was "This is Hollywood, people get fired all the time"

R114 Susan was the only one to attend Donnas funeral, which speaks volumes. True, Donna was miscast, but most of the cast and crew just resented Donna for just having the audacity to take over for Barbara, which is ridiculous. Hagman was the cheerleader in much of this. It really goes to show how cliquish the show was, but that’s true of many long running shows.

r112 Do you think Larry held a grudge for some reason against Susan Howard? The only thing I can think of as the obvious answer is politics. Susan Howard spoke highly of President George Bush junior in an interview with a Dallas fans website in 2003.I think he gave a job when he was Texas Governor to do with national parks?Whereas Larry Hagman said he was embarrassed that George Bush was a fellow Texan and lambasted him heavily.

Do other cast members mention Susan Howard much when asked about Dallas in interviews?

R116 the ones I’ve seen with the actors and producers she’s never really mentioned. I don’t think Susan is actively disliked, they just tend to focus on Larry, Patrick, Linda, Victoria and Barbara more.

r117 Do yo think Susan Howard is maybe just too forthright a person to fully feel with many of the cast members?

R118 I think everyone has a positive opinion of her. But they haven’t worked with her in over 30 years. I hate her politics, but she brought a lot to the show. Being a Republican wasn’t the dirty word it is now due the clown in chief. Hopefully she hasn’t devolved into one of the whack job ones.

Due to the ^

I doubt Susan is actively disliked. She's such a repellent political type (NRA ads, 700 Club!), and yet I would probably like her if I met her at the supermarket. She may be representative of the banality of evil, or she might just be a very good person who has never had experiences with people who aren't like her.

In any event, I've never seen anyone slight her, either, but it doesn't seem like anyone was very close with her or praises her, either (except maybe Kanaly, but after they were both off the show). I suspect r116 is onto something with Hagman just not liking her politics (and he probably knew a lot about her behavior with the potential abortion storyline, since he was either an EP or practically one by that point). My hunch is that that is when she soured the producers on her (I want to say something similar happened with Charlene Tilton when she announced she wouldn't be doing racy love scenes because of her Christian values--her storyline evaporated and they wrote her off. Both times, actually).

They made the Lucy character have an abortion though. I wonder what Charlene Tilton thought of playing that story line.

[quote] They made the Lucy character have an abortion though. I wonder what Charlene Tilton thought of playing that story line.

Irony is that she was PREGNANT in real-life she did the abortion storyline - they hid her pregnancy so well - she took her maternity leave during the 12 weeks the company does on-location filming in Dallas

So she filmed all her scenes prior to the on-location shoot at the Burbank studios. Which is why in that season, all of her scenes are indoors and not outdoors.

r123, love ya. I never knew that, and I was wondering that whole season when I just watched it why Lucy was so claustrophobic and really isolated.

r122 Is Charlene Tilton still religious?

[quote] love ya. I never knew that, and I was wondering that whole season when I just watched it why Lucy was so claustrophobic and really isolated.

The show that featured the "Ewing BBQ" and everyone is outside having fun - except Lucy who has stayed inside (she had just had the abortion) and Mickey pops in to ask Lucy why she is not outside at the BBQ

What kind of monsters would have a pregnant woman play out an abortion story at the same time. Ugh!

R127 the character was raped

That makes it even more traumatic.

Did her deadbeat parents come back to console her?

R129 they did have a scene about that, yes

In fairness to Dallas producers - Tilton announced her pregnancy AFTER the character was raped and discovered she was pregnant

It it is not like she announced she was pregnant and the producers said "Let's have Lucy get raped and have to get an abortion"

The deadbeats came back? Was that the last time they were on the show?

R132 it was done off-camera

Tilton probably saw the writing on the wall when her character became a waitress that her days were numbered. Even though she came back a couple years later, it’s interesting that Lucy became less interesting as an adult. She was perfect as a thorn in JRS side and her comments about him were hilarious. But the writing for everyone pretty much sucked the last few years.

They needed to have Lucy marry a sleazy protege of JR’s, like Alan Beam, who could work at Ewing Oil and perform as the brother JR always wanted. Mitch was dull and his work kept him out of storylines. Imagine if he had been an ambitious executive at Weststar or something.

r134, 100% agree. Lucy was much more fun in the first 5-6 seasons (particularly for how she took aim at JR, like you said). Miss Ellie's tenderness toward her was also a highlight to see.

For whatever reason (whether Tilton, whether the writers, whether the canvas becoming more dominated by JR and Bobby in the last years), Lucy wasn't fun, and neither was Tilton's delivery. Even her digs at JR seemed toothless during her second run, when she was Cally's confidante and later helped Sue Ellen make that movie.

Which female character did Donna have the most scenes with and the most interaction with?

r137, I'd say Miss Ellie. That storyline with Donna writing a sequel to her book on Sam Culver and unearthing dirt on both him and Jock brought her and Miss Ellie into some conflict.

R137 Off the top of my head, I'd say Miss Ellie, because they both were heavily involved on the environmental committee to stop the Takapa ("I AM TAKAPA!") development, and that was a heavy storyline for awhile.

Did Lucy and Ray ever speak about the unintended incest in the hayloft?

Thank you r139

Were Lucy and Jamie Ewing on the show at the same time? Seems like Jamie was always needling JR, much in the same way Lucy did.

Sorry, it's been at least a decade since I watched, I don't remember all of the finer details.

[quote] Were Lucy and Jamie Ewing on the show at the same time?

They were but they had NO scenes together - Lucy storyline was totally islanded AWAY from the rest of the cast. For her part Charlene said she was shocked to learn she was being written out

The show wanted Charlene to be recurring, drop in now and then (maybe 13 episodes a year out of 30), but Charlene wouldn't come back unless they had a storyline. The money was great, but it didn't sense to her to be on call, only to show up twice a month and only have one line.

Jamie arrived in 1984. Lucy left in 1985. Jamie was killed off in 1987 and Lucy returned a year later.

Lucy and Ray never spoke of the incest, they didn’t even share a look when Jock announced Ray was his son. The producers wanted everyone to forget.

R142 here again, not to derail the thread with non-Susan Howard questions, but didn't JR at one point accuse Jamie and Sue Ellen of being lesbians?

I need to go back and watch this show, I loved when the female characters got under JR's skin--it was hilarious.

Thanks, R144.

Richard Avery on KL accused Laura and Ciji of Dyking out. Probably because they both had mullets.

When Jamie came on Sue Ellen took to her as a friend, primarily because she had gotten back together with JR and she had a fight with Pam over the Barnes/Ewing feud in one of the early episodes of that season (1984-85).

Speaking of 1984-85, that is probably the worst pre-dream season on Dallas. It’s long (31 episodes), several storylines are a rehash of previous ones (Sue Ellen is drunk, Ray is mad because Donna is successful, Bobby might be Charlie Wade’s father, Cliff going after a portion of Ewing Oil because he found an old document belonging to Jock and Digger, etc.).

The worst story by far that season is the murder of Naldo Marchetta. Jenna’s trial goes on for weeks.

Brad Pitt dated Charlie.

R147 I actually liked this season. The episodes and the storylines moved fast. Plus all the episodes looked great with the film stock they used. A lot of true fans don’t think much of it with Donna Reed as Miss Ellie and it trying to compete with Dynasty the way everyone was dressed. But I didn’t mind the glamour for a change and while I’ll always prefer Barbara in the role, they gave Donna hardly anything to do this season so she barely registered.

R149- FINALLY, someone noticed the film stock!!! For some reason when Dallas and KL came back for the 86-86 seasons both shows had that new cheap "tv" look... I didn't watch Falcon Crest, but I would guess it was the same on that show.. Even the logos looked cheap as shit with that new "look"

They were always "filmed" so what makes the shows go from looking like movies to looking so cheap?

I love cinematography but know little about it-

^^ Sorry, I meant 86-87 seasons

This thread has gone much better and been much more informative than I was expecting. A really great discussion.

I have been loving this thread, too. I love that we have nuanced opinions on the skills of Susan Howard and Victoria Principal.

Everyone did R153! It had Agireline in it! Shit.

I love this thread. This reminds me why I love DL.

And, yes, I agree about the transition from film stock to crappy look, which I assume was video?

It's funny that the post-dream season was when the air was let out of the bag with Dallas when Bobby stepped out of the shower. But to make things worse, the show looked different with the crappy video look.

R155 I seem to recall in the Dallas soap forum the show was owned by a different company starting with the 1986 show. Some company bought Lorimar that had produced it ugh something like that. The joke was they thought things were going to be business as usual and Dallas was going to be number 1 again with Duffy back and the crappy way the show looked not to mention them pulling that dream fiasco thing on the audience. People will only accept so much, then they stop watching.

IIRC, Telepictures merged with Lorimar (or bought them) and that contributed to the shoddier look of the show.

And it did look shoddy, to underscore all y'all who've said so.

They also stopped giving Miss Ellie really classy muumuus and put her in dowdy frump sacks for most of the last years of the run.

So that means Falcon Crest inherited that cheap look at the same time..

It couldn't have been videotape, because these shows were always on film. But it was definitely a cheap daytime show video look...

And on Knots Landing, this new look at the unfortunate timing of starting at the same time as Knots WORST version of its classic theme. It was some Carribean style version- It was ATROCIOUS. I think that season started with Karen being kidnapped and in some guys basement. Anyway, it was just all so ugly to look at.

r158, I think you are right about the timing of when Falcon Crest got that glossy sheen to it. I always associate Dana Sparks with everything looking Vaselined on Falcon Crest (whether fair or not to Miss Sparks).

Interesting discussions. Maybe the shoddier look was just representative that nighttime soaps had peaked. I still enjoyed Knots and FC but Dallas was never the same after the dream season. What an insult to the audience. I wonder how they feel about it now? Was it really worth it to get Duffy back? And Dynasty was continuing to freefall during this period. Another show where their resolution of a much-discussed season finale (Moldavia Massacre) was another insult to the audience.

Still, I miss those times when you had all those choices of Dynasty, Dallas, Falcon Crest and Knots. And even The Colbys.

WHET the Dallas feature film starring Travolta as JR?

In Star Trek the original series Susan Howard played a Klingon named Mara opposite Michael Ansara as Kang

Good find r162

r153 I'm glad I am not the only one who has enjoyed this discussion! As an additional point, regardless of any weaknesses Victoria Principal may have had as an actress , I think it is fair to say she made the role her own and unrecastable. Ultimately I think the shows bosses came to the same conclusion.

I admired Principal for sticking to her guns. When she left Dallas in 1987, she was done playing Pam, she was really and truly done. She didn't need the money, so she always had firm no for all the times they tried to lure her back for the original and the reboot.

Lorimar really slashed the budgets in beginning 1986 and 1987 and all the shows suffered for it.

Knots Landing probably faired the best even though in 1987 they had to fire vets like Constance McCashin and Julie Harris. They changed with the times better than Dallas, Dynasty and Falcon Crest did and also kept up the quality of the show for the most part and the ratings were steadier. It never dropped out of the top 50 unlike the others did in their last season(s).

r165, I like to think of Principal as a star. She wasn't much of an actress (though she had her moments, like slapping Katherine or convulsing at Bobby's deathbed). But she had star quality, and I think that's one reason people were drawn to Pam despite not being the strongest actress and being saddled with baby rabies and aerobics.

r167 Would you say any other Dallas cast members were more star quality than gifted actors or actresses?

Tough call, SurvivingAngel. Larry Hagman has star quality to burn, but he's also a subtle actor when called upon (which was more in the first 7 seasons than the last 7).

Linda Gray and Susan Howard were both excellent supporting actresses, and both had acting skills and could carry "A" storylines. Gray may very well have had a bigger career if she wanted one, but I am not sure she had star quality the way Victoria did (feel free to disagree, my friends--I say this while also saying I think Gray was consistently the best actor on the show, along with Bel Geddes).

So, I guess my answer is no. Principal is really the only one for whom the star power was the engine driving her success. The others were mostly fine actors but lacking that X factor that makes you a media darling (back then, I mean, since now anyone can take a selfie of their ass and become famous). I can't imagine Joan Rivers giving out Jim Davis' or Steve Kanaly's phone number on her talk show the way she did Principal (and for the matter, I think the blowback was really bad on Joan because Victoria was so well-liked).

R165 And she seems to have very little to do with the surviving cast. I did read she loves old black and white movies, a passion she shares with one of the producers of Dallas.

R165 she was open to staying the 1987-1988 season if they threw enough money at her. But she would only commit to one more season and the producers wanted more. She negotiated. I’m unsure if if it was a realistic number she wanted, or she just threw an astronomical amount out there to shut them down knowing they’d say no. She always leaves this part of when talking about her exit. Wanting us to think she was beyond Dallas and no amount of money could keep her is just fiction. If the producers would’ve called her bluff, she would’ve stayed.

I thought that Princjpal said she was offered a raise that would have made her the highest paid star on TV, or tied with Hagman.

As for the decline of the show, I think the government forcing Ewing Oil to close was a bigger factor in the show’s decline. As long as Miss Ellie, Ray and Lucy owned a portion of the company with JR and Bobby, JR was forced to deal with them, and taking that away pulled them out of his orbit. The business deals just didn’t seem interesting when the original company was gone .

Instead of selling it I think the government should have forced Bobby and JR to step down, with the family voting to make Clayton and Donna co-CEOs. Bobby could run the ranch with Ray, and JR could take a shadowy presence by blackmailing Ewing Oil’s banker and sabotaging deals with the Cartel and Weststar. In Pam’s absence, Donna could develop feelings for Bobby, resulting in conflict between Ray and Bobby. Clayton could have had a heart attack from stress , leading to Miss Ellie blaming JR for it and throwing him off Southfork.

*big factor not bigger factor.

I love your ideas, r172. Susan Howard played a subtext of warmth perhaps extending beyond familial in scenes with Patrick Duffy/Bobby, and I always wondered if it was deliberate (or maybe they just liked each other). Donna's moral code certainly matched Bobby's (and, actually, thinking about it, they could have fixed up Season 11 a hella lot better by having Donna comfort Bobby after Pam's quasi-death/disappearance and having her end up with him, while Ray and Jenna deal with it).

They totally wasted Clayton, too, so your suggestion fixes that. The show also seems to have forgotten that he was in love with Sue Ellen at one point, which could have given everyone better things to do than simply bringing in tarts like Laurel Ellis for Clayton to not have an affair with but Miss Ellie gets to cry about it.

r162 I LOVE your idea of Donna helping to run Ewing Oil!

R171 Principal was always intending to leave in 1987. The writing on the show had declined by 1985 and she told them then when she renegotiated for two more years that she would be leaving then and gave them plenty of time to write Pam out properly.

They did attempt to lure her to stay longer right before she left, but she had made up her mind and had other irons in the fire already. They weren't happy and got petty.

R176 I’m aware she always had an exit plan. Whether it was 87 or 88. My point is the tale she loves to tell is that no amount of money could’ve kept her. Which is not true. She negotiated to stay in early 87 for one more season. If they would’ve paid her what she wanted she would’ve.

r177 Do you know if Victoria was ever paid more than Barbara Bel Geddes for her role on Dallas?

[quote] Do you know if Victoria was ever paid more than Barbara Bel Geddes for her role on Dallas?

Yes, that is one of the reason why Bel Geddes left the first time - everyone around her was getting pay increases except her! The producers didn't take her seriously when she threatened to quit - and then when she did, they were confident they could replace her with someone less expensive

Larry Hagman for his part, only found out about this after Bel Geddes had left.For all the wrongs people might direct at Larry, he did alot of good things. He was a champion of Linda Gray, worked behind the scenes to get her more money, a better contract and directing opportunities.

He wanted Victoria Principal to stay, and was instrumental in getting Patrick Duffy and Charlene Tilton back on the show.

But back to Bel Geddes, he was upset and wished someone told him so he could intervene, like he did with Linda Gray. He gave Donna Reed a chance, and realized it wasn't working, then he worked behind the scenes to get Bel Geddes a better contract and more money.

Yes we can all talk about how the show screwed over Donna Reed, but that is Hollywood. It would have been better if they had Clayton and Miss Ellie go on a long honeymoon for a year, until they could work out Bel Geddes contract

Barbara Bel Geddes father Norman, was also an industrial designer and popularized mid century modern. Facts are fun!

r179 Thank you for your thoughtful informative post. I was under the impression though that Bel Geddes left the first time because of serious health problems?

R181 no the bottom line was the money

Ok thanks r182 Although one assumes she would have taken some time off whilst she recovered from her heart operation even if she wasn't quitting?

R183 she did - her last season she missed half the season

If you watch the opener of the dream season, they didn’t even attempt to acknowledge that Donna Reed was there. Miss Ellie was wearing a glamorous expensive dress at Bobby’s death bed, and came home from the office in a sack dress.

R185 one year they had a cliff-hanger where Sue Ellen had long hair - over the summer Linda Gray cut her hair short. When she returned for the new season, Linda Gray refused to wear wig and write in her haircut in the story. The first episode of the new season was a direct pick-up from the cliffhanger - Sue Ellen wearing the same outfit, but a new short hairdo

Linda Gray explained it this way "Sue Ellen was so upset at the hospital (the cliffhanger scene took place in a hospital) , that she went to the hairdresser on the main floor of the hospital and had hair cut. That is what rich housewives do when they are upset!"

Bobby really was piece of work. After they found Naldo's killer, Jenna got released and he fucked her, fathering the baby. Then the next day he fucked Pam and stayed overnight. If Katherine hadn't done it, Pam and Jenna both should have run him over.

Bobby's penis had no conscience.

Remember Patrick Duffy's stint as a "noble" playah who romanced both Kris and Kelly at the same time. Just like Bobby, nobody thought the worse of him for it.

Because Patrick Duffy could do no wrong onscreen apparently.

On Charlie's Angel's, I forgot to add.

R186, I love thinking of Linda peddling that story.

I enjoyed the show as a young adult and it really taught me a lot about business. The show wasn't always about double crossing. There were some very interesting collaborations and twists of fate that the business people had to get creative with, all as main stories that would last through a whole season, along with the fun shady dealings. It taught me about methods of negotiation, which I think helped me in my own work.

Victoria Principal was gorgeous, but I really found her character boring. She was a woman in love and she constantly nagged her brother in law, and that was all she ever offered as a character.

I loved all of JR's mistresses too. He really sought a variety, and many of them were smarter than he was.

Pamela Barnes Ewing worked at The Store.

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r190 Mandy Winger superbitch was my favourite!

Mandy was really the great potential rival to Sue Ellen. Man was she beautiful, too.

Holly Harwood should have been a greater foil; Lois Chiles was not the best actor, but she was so beautiful, and had they made her JR's mistress sooner, rather than pining for Bobby all season, she may have been a more sharply defined character.

Mandy Winger was NOT a bitch! I DUG her. What a stunner.

Mandy should have been brought back in 1988 , and JR starts up with her again, intending to divorce Cally and marry her.

Sue Ellen discovers this. Not wanting to have Mandy as John Ross’ stepmother, she grooms Cally into the perfect Ewing wife, including manipulating JR into thinking she’s pregnant and lessons on manners and breeding.

Knowing JR is at his best at a husband when his business is failing, she works behind the scenes to sabotage his efforts without him knowing., purchasing oil fields out from under him.

In the cliffhanger, Mandy leaves Dallas and JR and Cally remarry. Sue Ellen shows up at the wedding and tells him she has controlled and manipulated everything that has happened to him over the course of the season. Now that he’s done the right thing , she signs over ownership of the oil deals he had been trying to win for the past year (which Sue Ellen stopped ) , and tells him she’s leaving Dallas too, now that she has him where she wants him.

Love Pam. I am currently watching Dallas season 7, on IMDB TV (free). The Chris Atkins season. Bobby and Pam divorced early in the season. She is now with Mark and Bobby has reunited with Jenna.

R181 Bel Geddes wanted more money, but a lighter work load too. She was still recovering from heart surgery in early 1983. Given that Miss Ellie had little to do the Donna Reed season, I’m really unsure why they couldn’t accommodate her. Dynasty had the same issues with recasts. Just throw anyone in the role and hope the audience doesn’t care. I think it’s the hubris that comes from a massive hit show.

R196 that’s pretty good. Better than the crap they had Gray do her last few years on the show.

r196, I love that. It accomplishes everything they wanted for Gray/Sue Ellen that final season, and makes much more sense of the dynamic she had with Cally.

I kinda wanted to see Mandy come back the next season after Sue Ellen tore up her contract but to pursue Bobby. No clue if they'd have chemistry, but she'd have been a thorn in Sue Ellen's side and almost certainly distracting JR.

The natural progression would’ve been for JR to be with Mandy after Sue Ellen. I don’t know what they were thinking with hillbilly Cally. Every time I watched her I felt I was losing brain cells. Dallas was just horrible the last four years.

[quote] Lois Chiles was not the best actor, but she was so beautiful,

I thought she was pretty effective in her role. She had a great presence, and played very well against Larry Hagman. I totally bought her role. And the sincerity Holly fought J. R. was very well played. She was fun. Her understated play against Morgan Brittany, in Holly's last episode, was pretty nice, too. Katherine was all campy, and Holly played totally opposite against it. It was quite powerful, nicely directed too.

I think Holly was eventually dropped because there was no place for her anymore. She was too strong for a victim character, like Jenna. And she wasn't relevant enough to become a constant foil for J. R. I guess it would have been nice to have her as Bobby's next wife, not April.

So who was Donnas biggest enemy or foe on the show?

Donna’s enemies were JR, Bonnie (the slut she slapped around after Ray went on a bender), George Hicks ( The guy at the Texas Energy Commission that gave JR a variance to pump oil),and that’s pretty much it. Maybe Cliff Barnes-they dates briefly and then she dumped him for Ray.

... and Mickey Trotter for two or three episodes. Then they liked each other.

Thanks r203 What a delicious looking enemy r204! 😘🔥

They reconstructed the exteriors of Southfork house to the EXACT measurements of the real Southfork house on the MGM lot

The first half of the season, all the scenes were done on location in Texas at the real Southfork - the second half of the season it was in the MGM lot - you could tell with the fake scenery

Thank you R206!! The series was running in daily syndication (on TNT?) when I was in high school and I quickly became an addict. I always wondered why such a famed, big-budget show had all of that fake scenery in so many episodes. It never did make much sense.

The way the show filmed was

They filmed segments of episodes 1 - 6 in LA on the MGM lot

Then they went on location to film in Dallas - filming segments of episodes 1 - 13

Then they went back to LA to film segments of the remaining 7 - 13 episodes at MGM

So for the first 13 episodes, everything was filmed out of sequence

The remaining episodes 14 - 30 were filmed on the MGM Lot, with the "fake" Southfork on the MGM lot as the real-one - and any on-location filming of episodes 14 - 30 were filmed on the streets of LA, disguised as downtown Dallas.

So a number of posters have explained the backlash to Barbara Bel Geddes first exit from the show but what is the dish on her 1990 exit? It seemed a shame a big shame and slightly incomplete not to have Miss Ellie the matriarch and moral compass in the final season.

Season 7, the Chris Atkins season, poor Donna doesn't have much to do. Pam, Sue Ellen, Jena, and Kathryn dominate. Afton is also wasted. Stay tuned!

[quote] So a number of posters have explained the backlash to Barbara Bel Geddes first exit from the show but what is the dish on her 1990 exit?

There was no backlash because the PR machine promoted it as Bel Geddes stepping down due to health reasons (she had open heart surgery) - so the American Public didn't realize it was a contract dispute - they seriously bought the story that she was leaving for her health

The second time she left, Dallas was on its last legs, so few people cared about who came or went. By that time favorites, like Pam, Donna, Ray and Sue Ellen had all left - so Miss Ellie leaving was just one more person

[quote] Season 7, the Chris Atkins season

Lee Montgomery (Girls Just Want To Have Fun) plays Atkins college roommate

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Victoria Principal later sued Joan Rivers when Joan read out Principals private phone number LIVE on the air on National Television.

Gasp - Lee was dream bottom hunk material in his prime. That body, that face, that ASS. The original (and humpier IMO) Joey Lawrence.

Lee Montgomery was so handsome during that period. Such an odd trajectory. Decent child actor, then teen heartthrob and then just disappears.

He would have been a better affair for Sue Ellen. I just never bought that Sue Ellen would fall for Peter. Sue Ellen liked men. Lee Montgomery would have satisfied Mrs. J.R. Ewing.

Completely agree R216.

////

r211 Thanks.But regardless of if anyone cared do we know why she left in 1990?

R219 she retired from acting when her contract expired - she wasn't interested in acting anymore

I always imagined Marilee Stone would have been a DL fave if DL was around when the show aired.

Watching that clip again at r221, Cliff really treated Afton like shit. She deserved so much better!

Fern Fitzgerald who played Marilee has a funny story. Her characters husband on the show tangled with J.R. - and the character committed suicide off-camera. Leaving a suicide note blaming J.R. for all his trouble.

At the same time Fern was hosting a dinner party (her real-life husband was out of town) - Fern gets a phone call and her friend screams over the phone "Your husband just committed suicide!"

It took Fern a few minutes to realize, her friend was talking about her husband ON THE SHOW, not her husband in real-life

Is that a real story? Seth and Marilee never had a scene together, and at the time Seth was still alive, Marilee was barely more than an extra. So they weren't really a couple of any significance to call home about. I am glad how things worked out for her though. Of all the oil big wigs she was definitely having the most fun.

R224 yes that is a real story from Fern Fitzgerald - it is in the oral history of Dallas

r220

Many thanks .I wondered if it was money issue. A shame she didn't feel she wanted to stay for the final season and give Miss Ellie a fitting send off .

I love the Season 7 opening- It has this cool synthy modern(for the time) keyboard- reminiscent of Stand Back by Stevie Nicks that was popular at the time..

That season with Timothy Atkins was very porny/modern. And Linda's punky 1983 hair took it straight over the top!

R207!! Same exact thing here!!!!! TNT ran Dallas and Knots! That's how I watched those shows! All a decade + later-

R208- Awesome- I love learning details like that- Very cool.

The probably shot on location during the summer to take advantage of the decent weather. And if I recall, a lot of those "real" Southfork scenes always looked like they were filmed on very warm summer days. I think that these shows usually started shooting in July or so..

R221 Someone should make a gallery or Pinterest board of all the hideous wallpaper of DALLAS.

Or not.

R219 I know she was unhappy with the scripts. Like the Murder She Wrote stuff she had to do. She may have been open to staying if they threw some more money at her, but by this point Dallas was on its last legs, and the budget for the show was diminishing, Hagman was swallowing up a lot of the money because by this point he had an executive producer title. I think Bel Geddes was more than happy to go at this point.

But she really fizzled out. There was something in the season finale about going on vacation, and in the next episode her title card was gone. And she never appeared again. I suppose they hoped for guest appearances that then never happened.

It's a shame in my opinion r231

Howard Keel made guest appearances throughout the end of the show. He was fine with whatever crumbs the show offered for the money. I think when Barbara left, she decided to not deal with the producers anymore, just hang it up, go back to Maine, and retire. I’m sure she had a nice nest egg and lived a modest life there.

[quote] Howard Keel made guest appearances throughout the end of the show. He was fine with whatever crumbs the show offered for the money.

In the oral history of Dallas he says that the Executive producer Leonard Katzman took him out to lunch and explained the cutbacks and he would be eased off the show. As Bel Geddes had left, there was little reason for Clayton to stick around. But they offered him a few guest appearances so his character could update the family about Miss Ellie

And Keel still received opening credits on every episode.

r234 Did Keel and Bel Geddes get on ok do we know? Any rumours?

In the ORAL HISTORY of Dallas Ms. Bel Geddes insisted on daily cunningilus from Mr. Keel who obliged as he was in fear for his job.

The crew knew, that when Miss Ellie's trailer was a rocking to not come a knocking!

Talk about ORAL HISTORY!!!!

[quote] And Keel still received opening credits on every episode.

That was a weird thing in Dallas' last couple seasons. They had an actor for maybe half the season, and they kept the title card throughout the entire season. Howard Keel, Barbara Stock, Lesley Ann Down. Was that a contractual thing to appease for low salaries?

Or r237 to stop the show and cast looking deserted and threadbare?

I have been watching some Dallas DVD boxsets. What struck me was that the Donna Reed version of Miss Ellie seemed after a few episodes to be given more scenes than usual with Donna Krebbs. I know Susan Howard spoke well of the late Donna and attended her funeral. Could perhaps other cast members not gelling with Donna Reed be the explanation for the increase in Donna Miss Ellie scenes during the Donna Reed Ellie era?

Bump!